Afghan Journal

Lifting the veil on conflict, culture and politics

Denuclearising Pakistan

November 30, 2010

A woman walks past a Pakistan national flag on display at a sidewalk in Lahore August 13, 2010. REUTERS/Mohsin Raza/Files

At about the time WikiLeaks released tens of thousands of U.S. diplomatic cables, including one related to a secret attempt to remove enriched uranium from a Pakistani research reactor, a top Pakistani military official held a briefing for journalists that focused on U.S.-Pakistan ties.

Dawn’s Cyril Almeida has written a piece based on the officer’s comments made on the condition of anonymity, and they offer the closest glimpse you can possibly get of the troubled ties between the allies.

First off, as the officer says, Pakistan has gone from being the “most sanctioned ally” to the “most bullied ally” of the United States. Presumably the sanctions that the officer is referring to relate to those imposed  on Pakistan following its nuclear tests in 1998. And as for the most bullied ally the other comments offer a clue: 

These include and I quote from Almeida’s piece:

“The U.S. still has a transactional relationship with Pakistan; the U.S. is interested in perpetuating a state of controlled chaos; and perhaps most explosively given the WikiLeaks revelations, the “real aim of U.S. strategy is to de-nuclearise Pakistan.”

U.S. and Pakistani security interests aren’t the same including over Afghanistan and India, the military officer says. And while Islamabad understood America’s growing focus on North Waziristan, it had to first settle South Waziristan and also factor in the blowback any operation in the area would stoke. The officer intriguingly also talks about indications that parties in the conflict in Afghanistan can renounce al Qaeda and even ask it to leave Afghanistan. In other words he is suggesting  that the Taliban are  ready to break ties with al Qaeda  and if so that removes a big obstacle to peace talks.

But clearly the most significant revelation from the briefing which reflects  frank exchanges between the upper echelons of the Pakistan military and the Obama administration is the one about the the nuclear disarmament of Pakistan. There isn’t any further elaboration in Almeida’s article but taken together with the WikiLeaks disclosures  it seems to confirm the Pakistani people’s worst fears. America is on its borders and its overriding objective is to eliminate Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, its national asset and deterrent against much larger and nuclear-armed India. Indeed the whole idea that the United States has Pakistan’s nuclear programme in its sights just as it has virtually recognised India as a legitimate nuclear weapon state must rankle deep across Pakistan.

“The people of Pakistan measure the strength of U.S.-Pak relations on the scale of the U.S.-India partnership,” the military officer is quoted as saying.

According to WikiLeaks,  the United States has been secretly trying to convince Pakistan to allow it to remove uranium from a research reactor on fears it may be stolen or diverted for use in a nuclear device. But Pakistan has refused visits from American experts, according to a May 2009 report by former U.S. Ambassador Anne W.Patterson because “If the local media got word of the fuel removal, they would certainly portray it as the United States taking Pakistan’s nuclear weapons,” a Pakistani official told her.

The question is which reactor the Americans are talking about? Top Pakistani nuclear scientist Pervez Hoodbhoy thinks the report probably refers to the enriched uranium that Pakistan received under the Atoms for Peace programme that America  ran for several countries including India back in the 1960s. He told the Christian Science Monitor that the only reactor running on highly enriched uranium was a small 5mw facility at PINSTECH closed to Islamabad. Pakistan whose weapons programme is based on the uranium enrichment route rather than plutonium has since built its own capability. Any attempt to remove the uranium from that particular reactor is not going to impair its nuclear  programme.

Comments

All this setting India ablaze etc stem from uncontrollable jealousy. These guys have grown up feeling superior to others and when the stakes are against them, they are unable to swallow their pride. And that vents itself in the form of jingoism and breast beating. Nothing’s going to change. They have already burnt their country down. EU is beginning shake due to economic down turn. This means they are going to cut down on their dole to other countries. The US will push harder on Pakistan as it is running out of time. As it is the blow back is hurting them. It will hurt them even harder. All this proxy war talk is only talk. They have no time to engage with India right now. They got severely hurt by the floods. And the repercussions of it have not taken effect yet. So let them thump their chests. We just have to make sure another Mumbai attack is thwarted. These guys never learn and they have paid a heavy price for that attitude. They still have not learned anything. So they will keep making mistakes and burn themselves out.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
The Imperial US ambassador by the name of Murphy is a poor sod, getting a bad PR in most German TV talk shows. It is customary for the supervisor of the individual section in the embassy to send reports under the name of the US Ambassador direct to the state dept. His response to the journalist was very poor.

The problem is much deeper and very complex. After the fall of the USSR and its communist empire, most western Nations including USA were left with the massive beaurocrats and the infra-structer previously utilised for the cold war. While most european countries have adjusted to the new reality, it would seem that the USA administrations transfered the entire set up for the war on terror. In my view the new administration with two presidents, both lawyers in profession have raised the stakes. Hillary Clinton instructions to spy on allys and non allys is definitely a cold war process. She is so naive not to realise even now what she has started. Condi Rice at least spared closed allies. The Italian foreign response was prompt, “9/11 for diplomacy”. The backlash is yet to come.
As for wikileak, it would seem that there is a massive network and very powerful sponsors who are running the project have taken on the BIG BROTHER domain, keeping watch on USA operations. Who could have thought even in his wildest dreams that this could happen to the God Father. Julian who choose to be the frontman for wikileak has gone into hiding in the UK. He fears for his life now. The UK police knows his whereabouts but are so far refusing to extradite him to Sweden, his home country. Julian said last night that all the documents are in the hands of the newspapers, (some owned by the Russians tycoons) and would be automaticaly released as soon as they have been fully edited.

Like the lady(hillary) said there are always consequences for the actions countries take.

Rex Minor

PS Incidently, what is happening between India and Pakistan has never been cold war, but simple and straight forward battles, war and covert actions in the most conceiterd indopak style. No offence is intended to any of the parties. Transparency is the call of the day. india is definitely in the premier league and has the upper hand, says Mr prasad.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries. Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture. India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.

Pakistan leaders need wisdom, pro-life faith, and patience and long life of Prophets to confront the future.
For stability and security all of the countries need friendy relations with one another.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries. Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture. India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.

Pakistan leaders need wisdom, pro-life faith, and patience and long life of Prophets to confront the future.
For stability and security all of the countries need friendy relations with one another.

Rex Minor

PS Indian is ambitious to go for nuclear energy, something Iran is persuing and most probably Pakistan wants as well? Is it the right approach considering that energy can be sourced from the Sun which is always present in that part of the world?

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@rex minor,

It is unfortunate that you paint Pakistan as a god fearing dove.

Pakistan has some of most godless people, if 1971 genocide of 3 million is any indication.

India is a country full of hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs, buddhists, jews.

It is sad that once you have no valid arguements anymore, you stoop to scraping the bottom of the barrel calling people “Godless”.

You should not believe everything you are told, God loves all his children equally, like any parent does. Do not believe the myth that only one political religion has cornered all of God’s love, that is another myth.

PS Indians need energy to sustain their population. India is not seeking build more nxkes. India is not a proliferator of weapons, nor is India blackmarket dealing with Rogue nations.

India has the high moral ground on almost every issue, so please, you should be advising Pakistan to form loving, gentle, friendly relations, not ones based on mistrust, maintaining mutual hatreds and blame.

As an Indian, I would love the day that I can goto Islamabad and watch the cricket tournament, without fear of being lynching because I am an Indian Hindu and as a Pakistans, Umair should look to the time when he can travel freely in India, without fear. In fact, he can do so, once his visa gets approved, Indians do not have bogus blasphemy laws and such, so India is already safe to travel to.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries.”

First they wanted a country for themselves, because their warped leaders believed that Hindus and Muslims can never co-exist as a nation. Little did they know of history prior to partition in which Hindus and Muslims co-existed for close to a thousand years. They fought wars, not against each other, but against coalitions made up of Hindus and Muslims. Aurangzeb’s Mughal army was headed by Raja Man Singh in Deccan. And the Raja fought Shivaji, a Hindu chieftain who was allied with the Bamini Sultans who in turn resisted the Mughal expansion.

Now that they got a nation for themselves, they should have worked towards making it stronger in terms of economy and welfare of citizens. Instead, like you are saying, they have moved on to the next set of paranoiac beliefs of being “surrounded” by Godless people. In fact the Hindus are supposed to have millions of Gods and not just one. To Pakistan’s northwest lies Afghanistan which is responsible for the three hundred odd million Muslims in South Asia today. To the West of Pakistan lies Iran which has been an Islamic culture even much earlier than the region that became Pakistan.

Your analysis tells me that you are blind with ignorance and have no idea what you are talking about. And you asking your other warped brother to look up to the Chinese who have no faith in God and matters related to God. They recently crushed an Islamic uprising in their Uighur province. May be it does not matter to you, because China is your enemy’s enemy. They definitely are not your friends. You are only fooling yourself into assuming that they are your all weather friends. They want to dump North Korea. Pakistan may not be far off in that list if they find your brothers trying to help the Uighur Muslims.

“Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture.”

See above. Chinese only take. They never give. Soon your brothers will be breast feeding them dry. Wait and watch.

“India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.”

We want nothing from you guys. You can keep your wonderful Islamic country to yourselves and burn it down to your hearts’ content. We are looking at you the way people look at criminals in a neighborhood. We are just being cautious. That’s all.

Do not try to hide behind your German veil. You are a hardcore Pakistani and your emotional rants more than substantiate it. You will learn your ultimate lessons.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“You will be holding tight to dear Kashmir, and India will be set ablaze from within”
***your ISI has done its best. Go ask them if you have no idea about it.

Your cousins are doing their best to blow India apart. Read it in caps and bold. I do not have much appetite for Bullcrap that suggest ISI has been kind to India. You guys supported Punjab terrorism and corrupting Kashmiri youths. I agree with you ISI is trained by CIA and would not blink an eye anyone in forcing its decisions on unwilling Kashmiris. You are a single dimensional person with vengeance of 1971 and portraying it as love for Kashmiris. Go give it where it works.

You guys have got a bloody cheek to set India ablaze and act innocent bystander and then cry over Indian “moral’ support to Baluch.

@India supporting Baluch
***I sympathize with them as much as I do with Kashmiris. you know that CIA-trained ISI machinery is like cannibals who will eat Baluch up and they do. Why is that Pakistan has not been able to provide any evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan? See the comparison that LeT (syn JuD) chief is picnicking with your establishment even after proofs by India and confession by your country that LeT was involved.

India has supported Baluch in the past, not now-not when the USA is there. Indians can spread you thin once they decide to give you your own medicine.

“This cold war will only further spread to Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc.”
***great job Umair! It already has, if you do not know.
You do not fry fritters with water, you need oil. Where is the money going to come from? Remember ISI involvement in counterfeit currency in India in order to support terrorism by LeT. This is Bangladesh intelligence agency information too. Other ways are siphoning the money, you are given as help for civil purposes, to set India ablaze (reference: confession by Musharraf, a nut who calls Pakistan a happening place). you need to realize that Pakistan is not saudi Arabia to have petro dollars.

“We will talk when you will realize India is not that much strong.”
***There are facts which you need to know. China is stronger than India and India is stronger than Pakistan. Trouble starts when you forget it. That does not prevent solutions.

“I told you we forfiet East Pakistan, we will give up Kashmir but will come at you from left right and center until you relaize your in a sh*t storm. That’s when you will truly know your a$$ is being getting kicked.”
***what you are saying is along the line that Kashmir is not real problem for you, it is 1971 that is hurting you. I can understand that. But bad news for you is that India is saying talks and is hopeful. Fun will start when India start blowing one of your friends and blame it on some non-state actor. Then you’ll know how it works.

It is so sad that only time I see you this excited is when you talk destruction. Mostly rest of the time your opinions are muffled.

so my suggestion: violence has given nothing. time to change the tactics and TALKS TALKS TALKS–result-oriented. :-)

“Better yet let’s sever diplomatic ties and just mind our own business. We really have nothing to do since our ways were parted back in 1947. As I said, just keep Kashmir and leave Pakistan alone”
***that can be one way. go ahead and ask your govt/army to do that. India also wants Pakistani terrorists within their country and leave India alone. I think we agree on that. :-)

PEACE!

Let us not behave like American establishment which does not learn from the history.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:

I think we must chill and relax, i think the past is very bitter with so much bad blood between our two countries. As for Mumbai attacks remember there was internal support from India as well. So there are no quick fix no immediate solution, unfortunately this is the reality. Pakistan and India are just not normal neighbours.

Thank you and very nice to get to know your real views, I think we should always be open in our discussion.

KPSingh:
” We are looking at you the way people look at criminals in a neighborhood.”

-KPSingh, give it a rest too much hatred is not good for you. You guys are not saints either, many crimes have been committed by your country as well.

G-W:
“As an Indian, I would love the day that I can goto Islamabad and watch the cricket tournament, without fear of being lynching because I am an Indian Hindu and as a Pakistans, Umair should look to the time when he can travel freely in India, without fear.”

-I look forward to the day when Pakistan makes progress without having to care about an ‘enemy’ and we have normal relations. We must all look forward to the future and let go with past and move on, I agree on that.

Rex Minor:
Sit back, relax and watch one by one you will uncover the behind the scene going on in the US diplomatic community. The hypocricy and double standards will be all too clear, as I said there is much more to come.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan army reacts to WikiLeaks cables with democracy pledge

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec  /04/pakistan-army-supports-government-w ikileaks

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “KPSingh, give it a rest too much hatred is not good for you. You guys are not saints either, many crimes have been committed by your country as well.”

After Mumbai attacks, that is the perception, like it or not. Pakistan’s authorities were quite embarrassed that all the plans, training, reconnaissance and execution were done in Pakistan. They did not want to admit it. They tried to window wash it. Somehow, truth simply could not be hidden. Now we do not trust Pakistan. Period. And all the double dealing, back stabbing, duplicitous reputation that Pakistanis have gained around the world, have made us even more suspicious. Everything I have listed above are done by criminals.

I agree that we are no angels. But we pale in comparison. BTW, we have built a nation that has demonstrated progress in many areas, not just nukes.

If your country wants others to take it seriously, there is a lot of detox needed. This is something your nukes and military machines will not bring about. Right now no one really wants to deal with Pakistan. Some have been forced to and they feel unfortunate. And that is not a respectable state to be in.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Pakistan army reacts to WikiLeaks cables with democracy pledge”

This is called buying time. No one outside of Pakistan trusts your army. A wolf can never become a sheep. When it wears a sheep skin, we all know it is up to something.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
It is not only funny but serious. Did kyani or his spokesman have to put his foot in the mouth by denying what has been reported by wikeliek. Since when does the army in a democratic country go public and declares its allegance/support for the civilian Govt.

Gen. Patreous has done that going public to justify war and basically politicised the institution, a unique development in the western democratic country. And now Gen kyani has done it. Now, who in Pakistan is going to repremand publicly the statements of the military brass? Where is the defence minister? Robert Gates sent McChrytal to retirement.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@GW
I feel that you are a sincere guy. But please do not manipulate my words, which are deliberately kept very simple and straight to the point. You are the only one who did not preach on the status quo but even came up with a proposal for a thaw in cold relations. Most of your fellow Indians have been simply repeating their fixed views and putting on demands.
Umair is the only prticipant who is in a position to tell us how the Pakistanis feel. I think that we should encourage him and not get him bogged down with accusations and speculations.
.I have not painted Pakistan as a God fearing dove! How can I, when most of the violence in that country is being carried out by themselves.
. I am a secular and try not to mix religion with politics. I am sorry if I have given this perception. I am not a Pope to speak on behalf of God. I do fear the one God and those who believe in a trinity or more Gods like the ancient greeks, then i regard these people Godless. It does not mean that I disrespect atheists, communists or people of other faiths, quite the contrary, I respect them on the basis of their behaviour and not their belief.
. Pakistan is a muslim country and yet have not managed to form a cohesive society. Pakistan leaders have not tried to understand the desires of different communities to form a consensus, separating religion from the State.
I fully agree with the rest of your comments. It is also my opinion that had Pakistan and India no diplomatic contact, there would not have been so many conflicts between them.

Rex Minor

PS My refernce to India going nuclear was for nuclear reactors for elecricity needs and not for weapons.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

The wikileaks, have reaffirmed that the Pakistani army was responsible for the humiliation faced by Pakistan, in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks. Zardari tried very hard to reconcile with India, right after the attacks. He wanted to immediately acknowledge that Pakistanis were involved in the attacks & send ISI chief Pasha to India, as a gesture of goodwill. But Kayani reigned him back, canceled Pasha’s visit & ordered the Pakistani leadership to go in a denial mode & demand proof of Pakistani involvement.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

It’s quite clear that as long as the nucleus of power in Pakistan, lies with it’s army, there can NEVER be peace between India & Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“As for Mumbai attacks remember there was internal support from India as well.”
***That does not stop Pakistan from taking action where they can.

“I think we must chill and relax, i think the past is very bitter with so much bad blood between our two countries.”
***Agreed. Violence is an easy thing, solves nothing, worse adds to the problem. The least we can do is control our own thoughts.

“Thank you and very nice to get to know your real views, I think we should always be open in our discussion.”
*** :-) They have always been REAL.

Umair and others
Here is my suggestion. This suggestion of breaking diplomatic relations is not practical.

The suggestion of increased people to people contact, increased trade between 2 countries is nothing new.
There is a strong need for media helping to bring the 2 countries together.

There is no doubt that there is hatred between 2 countries. What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

rehmat: “What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.”

It will be called a biased Indian view of history. Pakistan will never accept the truth about Bengali genocide. India will never accept the truth about Kashmir. The reason for partition will become yet another fodder for endless arguments.

I don’t think Indian history books have been that much distorted about the events after 1947.

An alternate suggestion will be to encourage Pakistanis to read works by neutral sources to enhance their perspective of historic realities. Again this prompt should never come from any Indian. Pakistanis will listen to the British or the Americans in this regard.

How does one insert the truth about AQ Khan or Tikka Khan in Pakistani text books? For them they are heroes. Saying anything diplomatic will be to cover up real history with lies.

I think we should just let things settle for themselves. India and Pakistan can sign a treaty not to look at each other for the next ten years and not to meddle in each others’ affairs for the same time period. A period of dead time is needed in which people can focus on their own countries and allow things to cool down. I agree with Umair slightly in this regard.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.”

How would that benefit the b*stards sitting in New Delhi and Islamabad? The people who have to take this decision are wretched to the core. Do you really think your solution is practically possible?

I would tend to agree with Umair’s solution. Sign LOC into border, gain peace, solve smaller issues first and hence build trust and then finally take up Kashmir.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat

I agree with others. As well intentioned, your suggestion might be, it’s not practicable at least at this time. If relations between the two countries get better, maybe they can work on something like that over time but we seem to be quite a bit far from that point.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I would also like to know, what do those incessantly tooting the horn of “ummah”, have to say about the recent disclosure of various arab leaders urging the US to bomb Iran?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:

Muslim Ummah is more united than ever before, despite what King Abdullah urged the US on Iran. Fact remains Ahmedinejad visited Riyadh and both Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran have been improving their relationship. There has been no reaction from Tehran on wikileaks disclosure, instead they have said this is a conspiracy by US. Similarly, Sunni Pakistan has much improved relations with iran now. You name it, Syria has had visits by Kinbg Abdullah, almost all muslim nations are united. Don’t forget the political deadlock in Lebanon sometime back where Qatar had brokered talks in Doha and came up with a plan to break the deadlock and bring stability to Lebanon. The Turkish support for Gaza, its cutting down of ties to Israel. Wikileaks must not mislead you regarding Muslim unity.
Also, King Abdullah called for inter-faith dialogue at UN to create more understanidng among different faiths Islam, Judaism christianity etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:

On Pakistan Army response on wikileaks, it is no secret that Army in Pakistan has influence on national matters. The civilian govt. is too weak, inefficient and corrupt it cannot function without Army support. Last year when the politicians were fighting and there was political instability, Gen. Kayani told them that the country faces a serious situation and if any politician does not behave and mend their ways specially if the president does not come back to his senses he will kick him out. Sorry, but this is Pakistan democracy, if the president or prime minister is a fool, the Army can kick his a$$ big time.
Basically Gen. Kayani was under termendous pressure from his corps commanders, in frequent GHQ meetings all senior officers were very concerned that Zardari is corrupt, inefiicient and does not realize the problems faced by the country. In the end good sense prevailed, Zardari relaized he will have to behave himself otherwise he would be forced to resign and sent to an exile in Dubai.
But gradually I support civilian govt. taking ownership, Army finally doing its job of defending the country and non-interference in politics. But as long as we have corrupt politicians we need the Army to keep them in check. This time the Army had to come out with support of civil govt. in light of wikileaks statements.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex

BTW the funny thing is US Embassy cables write off PM Gordon Brown as ‘abysmal’ and slam the failure of British Troops in southern afghanistan.
The Ministry of Defence UK had to also come out with their own clarification statement. The Brits are furious.
Moreover the German foreign minister’s chief of staff was fired over wikileaks, he was acting as a mole for US embassy officials. So the fallout is being felt not just in Pakistan but elsewhere too. You may see a lot of statements, apologies, clarifications etc. here is the German story:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/03/ german-government-official-fired-over-wi kileaks-revelations/

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair and all:

Umair, I am not leaving you. :-)

What do you think about the suggestion about a common history between India and Pak? Do not be defensive.

Indian posters here do not think it is practical that India/Pak can have a common history. Well Kashmir solution does not seem to be practical either. 60plus years and it is worse now.

One cannot expect a common man to read history from other sources. Most of people read text books in school in their lives.

Common man in India and Pakistan has grown up reading different history. Not to offend Pakistanis but Pakistan is worse in this. Correct me if I am wrong, Indians have read what is mostly taught in Pakistan books (guessing it is mainly Mughal history). Reading Budhism, Hinduism, Sikhism is as important as Islam. Suggestion here is not to study in depth but basic tenets of religions. That does not amount to blasphemy as some narrow-minded people might think.

“How does one insert the truth about AQ Khan or Tikka Khan in Pakistani text books? For them they are heroes. Saying anything diplomatic will be to cover up real history with lies.”
***agreed there will be such cases in India and Pak. How about a common history pre-1947? That will avoid partition, Kashmir, Bangladesh. Post-1947 India and Pak are different countries.

I know it is bit of digression.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Talking about Ummah, India , with 3rd largest Muslim population in the world, is blocked from becoming a member of the Organization of Islamic countries (OIC), not even observer status at Pakistan’s behest. So much for Ummah.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat,

I had previously deliberately overlooked the suggestion made by you, regarding a common history, people to people contacts. In my view this will be a giant step forward, if people on both sides can reach out and create understand each other it will create goodwill and understanding. A common pre-1947 history would be a good idea. Frankly, I have read in our text books about how founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah was initially part of Indian national congress but got fet up with ‘cunning’ hindu leaders and later joined Muslim League. Or famously ‘hindustan ne rat ki tariki mein hamla kar dia’ (India attacked Pakistan during the darkness of night on 6 sept 1965). I think if there is a task force of academics who can work on this and revise the history/text books we will do a great favor by creating harmony in future generations. People to people contact can go a long way in improving ties and building bridges.

On the issue of OIC, Rehmat first of all don’t you think the OIC needs to become more robust and vocal and take pro-active initiatives. Pakistan may have been against India’s participation in OIC due to the ongoing Kashmir dispute. But as we inch closer to solution to Kashmir, there is no harm if India joins OIC. But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected. So while India might not be part of OIC, but I can tell you many Islamic movements in India, many Indian Ulema and religious scholars are a force already. They are an important asset and part of Muslim Ummah, role model for many. Being part of OIC India can give a platform to its Muslim minority to get their voice heard. But it would have to be figured out what is the stance of Indian govt. on some issues. For example India has good diplomatic relations with Israel, will India strongly condemn Israel if it attacks Palestinian Muslims? That remains to be seen.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

I generally avoid posting here because I witness it generally brings out the worst in us, as all who post here are very patriotic, regardless of nationality.

When we talk about the India-Pakistan issue, we must understand that the trust deficit is 60 years deep, and a lot would need to be done to rectify it, regardless of who’s more to blame. Sadly, we don’t see that happening, and current events show a possible escalation towards a full scale battle which would be far more complicated and disastrous than all previous wars combined. I dread that day, but the point is that people are so controlled by state opinions that the masses would support their respective forces with regard to such actions.

We nuclear armed neighbors could have been support pillars for each other, but the circumstances in which we were separated had initiated a trust deficit. Subsequently, our leaders in their nationalistic egos’ further divided us. I blame both nations for this. Today, if i don’t respect the Indian nation for their achievements my opinion would be biased and worthless, and i assure you that it is not so. In the sub-continent, we must appreciate and look up to India as its overall model has been very successful.

We Pakistani’s however have had a different fate. If you all read history, Pakistan was the growth leader in this region up to the nineties. In the fake comfort of the same, we lost sight of our goals and the termites which had started feasting on the nation then have deformed the structure such that it stands as it is today.If i go into the discussion at this point i will stray from the topic of the article itself.

Getting to the point, all of Pakistan’s short-comings aside, what we do have is a very stable nuclear program which is not only secure, but the missile technology it is combined with is FACTUALLY (you can confirm this independently) more advanced than its much larger neighbor. India would lead where conventional warfare is concerned, but we both are in equal parity on the nuclear level. Pakistan’s civilians are also heavily armed, as research does show that on an avg. there are three assault rifles per capita in Pakistan. That is a huge number if you would consider. Pakistani’s are also very emotional, which could cause impulsiveness in attack and combined with a first strike doctrine, it doesn’t give a pretty picture. For any nation of the world, battling Pakistan would be an act of guts if it happens so.

That being said, do we want nuclear warfare? I don’t think either side does. If you want to make a difference, it starts at home. There is no war between the people of India and Pakistan, just the states. Animosity does exist, but only where our nations come into discussion. If all of you who post here are smart enough, research deeper on the covert battle engagement on both sides. If you could do that you would see the hypocrisy of your states, and while Pakistanis are openly exposed to it, it is hard for the other side to accept it. Look deeper, and question. The results of a nuclear war would be disastrous for both, and the idea of victory would be an illusion where bilateral strikes are concerned. The stage of the world is changing once again, and history is to be made. We must try not to accept information fed to us without questioning it regardless of the source. Today legitimacy of information is accorded blindly to what is disseminated from media and state institutions, and with the wikileaks expose in sight, it shows us that they are most positioned to toy with our opinions and they do so. Wake up, this is not a one sided war. Blame goes to both ends. Pakistan’s actions may be touted as instigatory but it is just because it would be portrayed so as has been the agenda for most nations and authorities since its creation. India’s would not be so, as the diplomatic ties would prevent such an action

Posted by wildbandit | Report as abusive
 

Wildbandit,

Congratulations and thank you for a very, very informative and constructive critique of our negative pattern. It is hard to reconcile to the truth, but we are, sometimes at our worst and sometimes, even willingly so, victims of manipulative techniques and thought processes. I could not possibly agree more with what you say, specially the following:

“We must try not to accept information fed to us without questioning it regardless of the source. Today legitimacy of information is accorded blindly to what is disseminated from media and state institutions, and with the wikileaks expose in sight, it shows us that they are most positioned to toy with our opinions and they do so.”

Often after interacting or following some of the discussion here I go away disappointed and disheartened. At times the future looks almost bleak and hopeless and then I realise that this too is manipulation here. At times I am almost convinced that some topics here are deliberate attempts to provoke and create discord rather than open up a healthy debate.

What I find depressing about debate here is that, all too often, it is extremely negative. Optimism and constructive thought are at a premium. Perhaps, as you suggest, each one of us needs to make a fresh start and look within and like the wise man said ‘be the change we want to see’.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

@wildbandit
well said, I call it motherhood, every one recognises the facts. But what is the solution???

Rex Minor
PS GW suggested one to take Kashmir out of the equation but there was no consensus among those who are speaking on behalf of India. Remember these people have lived as slaves under the Brits for more than two centuries and have since independence not carried out the reform of their institutions to make them independent. Their comments reflect a common approach of the Brits,namely “MUDDLE THROUGH”!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Umairpk
Time and again the military in Pakistan has considered themselves superior to those who were the “civilian Govt” and took over the helms of the Govt. without thinking through this act of treason. This has not brought significant improvements but did damage the fabric of both civilian as well as military institutions. The military when employed in the civilian cadre over a long period became more corrupt than their civilian predecessors.

Most civil Govts in a democracy are imperfect and corrupt, and therefore are elected for a limited period. No one makes too much fuss about the corruption side. Pakistan military performance in the past has also been very poor(so much for defending the country) and their intrusion into Swat and Waziristan was also not a great feat to charge against civilians.
Zardari/Gillani are what they are, people have to put up with them or force them out with peaceful demonstrations, the ingradients of the democracy. It is not the function of the corps commanders to assume the head teacher role and intervene when the croud become frustrated.
Lady clinton ordering cold war tactics on allies and foes simply proves that the super power is nit able to deflect the fall of their imperialist empire.
The revelitions about the German politicians did not surprise the people in the country since these were known to them.

Rex minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@wildbandit: good post

@”still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens”

I don’t know where you got that from but I have a lot of muslim friends & aquaintainces in Mumbai, who happen to own some of the best real estate in the city. I agree that generally there has been an element of discrimination against muslims but that has been changing & India is rapidly evolving into a merit-based nation. Today, if a well educated & qualified muslim seeks a job in Tata or Reliance, I don’t think he or she is discriminated against, based on religion.

Going back to the topic of distorted history, I got my primary & secondary education in India and I don’t remember coming across any derogatory information about Pakistan or muslims. Most mughal rulers, except Aurangzeb, were depicted in positive light (especially Akbar) & the partition of the country was largely blamed on Jinnah. There may be some distortions on Kashmir but I’m not very sure.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected”

Can you provide a source for this claim? Have you heard of Bollywood? It is dominated by Muslims – actors, producers, directors, composers, lyricists, screen play writers, make up artists, choreographers, you name it. This has been the case since movies began to get produced in Mumbai. They all live in expensive homes and have embellished India’s cultural scenario. I am sure you have been taught that they are living as second class citizens in Mumbai’s slums. Mumbai has a huge Muslim population and they all have been living in Mumbai for generations in their own homes. Your beloved country’s founder Jinnah was a resident of Mumbai. His house, called “Mumbai House” is now Pakistani consulate.

I wonder how mis-information has created paranoia about India. I am sure in Pakistan the general perspective about India is that Muslims are treated like slaves and those who made it to Pakistan are fortunate. Any politically driven riot is projected monumentally to substantiate this mis-information. Riots happen for various reasons and they are not directed at Muslims alone. Welcome to India. My community was massacred in 1984 when “a giant tree fell.” Ethnic groups get targeted as well. Many times the motive is to drive one group out of a place to garner their businesses.

In your land of milk and honey itself there are riots and massacres against different communities – Ahmadis, Sikhs, Shias, Sufis, Pathans, Sindhis and so on. We read about them in newspapers all the time. India is no different. But somehow Pakistani leaders have consistently tried to project a wrong image about India – Hindus are destroying mosques, they are killing Muslims, Muslims are denied entrance to college and so on. India has one of the best privileges for Muslims – their own civil code, government subsidy for Haj pilgrimage, public holidays for Muslim holy days etc. I am sure none of you were ever told about any of that.

You need to ask us if something told to you is true. That is where more awareness and openness can be created. You have to come with questions about the perceptions on India. We can clarify from our stand point. Another misinformation I saw in your posting is about India attacking Pakistan in the middle of the night in 1965. Operation Gibraltor is quite famous. India had been beaten to pulp by the Chinese in 1962. It lost its first Prime Minister. The new one, Shastri appeared meek and weak. Ayub Khan’s advisers pushed him to take up Operation Gibraltor. You know these things as a staunch military supporter. Yet how many go by the misinformation in Pakistan?

Lies told a thousand times begin to resemble the truth. The only thing that is being sustained in Pakistan is a misperception towards India so that Pakistanis will not question. It is extremely unfortunate. In India, due to the openness, we get to question things. We do not take anyone’s propaganda. We do not rely on Indian sources alone. I think educated Pakistanis like you should do the same. Only then anyone can talk about opening up towards each other. Misinformation can lead to suspicion and lack of trust.

Common history of India prior to 1947 might make Pakistanis feel cheated. This is because the denizens of the Indian sub-continent had learned to live in peace during the Mughal rule and the British tried hard to keep them divided in order to rule over them. Pakistan is a creation of that very method. I have mentioned about this before. We all could have lived in peace. Our people have been given a raw deal by the British from living in peace. They manipulated selfish leaders to drive a wedge between different groups and left land mines in the sub-continent that are still ticking. That is the truth you will learn.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Wildbandit,

Great post. I agree with your views. Like Dara mentions here, I see a deliberate attempt to keep us divided. If you look at British news and authors, they still carry the torch of old colonial divisive tactics. It has its subtle expression in forums like these as well. Our respective egos are triggered and we fight a key board war on these forums, dancing to their tunes. Ignoring them will be a great thing, but there is always the fear of misinformation and lies becoming truths over time. Most of us are here to prevent it from happening.

I have become convinced that Pakistan is a land mine created by the colonial British empire to keep South Asia backward and dependent on the Western powers. India has managed to wriggle out of this grip somehow. All that is left now is this relentless campaign through the media in UK and Western Europe that constantly picks on issues in India and blows it out of proportion. Much to their disappointment, India is progressing more and becoming more united.

If Pakistanis can realize that they have been manipulated by the powers in the West, they can definitely turn to us and we can dispel all the myths together. Everything does not have to be looked at from a nuclear confrontation stand point. The West wants that to happen because it will gain them ascendency again. We have to learn from our past mistakes. Many military generals in your country are agents for the Western powers. They are the ones who have brought Pakistan to where it is today.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Wildbandit said:

> research deeper on the covert battle engagement on both sides. If you could do that you would see the hypocrisy of your states, and while Pakistanis are openly exposed to it, it is hard for the other side to accept it.

LOL – I’m sure Indians are more than familiar with the hypocrisy of their leaders and the government’s position on anything! You would have noticed that Indian posters here have never claimed that the Indian government has been an angel in Kashmir. We know our government has screwed things up big time.

A situation of hope, then?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

I feel that there is a strong mis-perception amongst Pakistanis that India is a symbol of hinduism & that the “cunning” hindus control everything in India while subjugating the minorities. Although Hindus are the majority in India, this is far from the truth. Just as many pakistanis often say that Indians have a hard time accepting Pakistan as a nation, I think most Pakistanis have a hard time accepting India as a secular nation. For whatever it’s worth, this Reuters forum is a good example of India’s secularism.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

Thanks for your detailed post. I appreciate that especially the positive way you presented.

“Frankly, I have read in our text books about how founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah was initially part of Indian national congress but got fet up with ‘cunning’ hindu leaders and later joined Muslim League. Or famously ‘hindustan ne rat ki tariki mein hamla kar dia’ (India attacked Pakistan during the darkness of night on 6 sept 1965). I think if there is a task force of academics who can work on this and revise the history/text books we will do a great favor by creating harmony in future generations. People to people contact can go a long way in improving ties and building bridges.”
***I have forgotten what I learned in history text books in school in India. Nothing stands out as negative as ‘cunning’ hindu leaders. Regarding 1965 war, I recall extensive description of Havaldar Abdul Hamid who was decorated with PVC posthumously. I can understand that Pakistan will not like to teach to kids that Pakistan attacked India and lost the war or the war ended in stalemate. Indian history text books clearly mention that in 1962 India lost to China. In old Indian history actually wars have been described as lost in a positive way “they fought bravely but in the end lost the battle”. What I see is that there is scope to tone down history in Pakistan at its own level. Scholars know better and along with war against terror, Pakistan needs to SLOWLY undo the distortion which began after 1971 division of Pakistan. Again, I am not trying to lecture you here.

“On the issue of OIC, Rehmat first of all don’t you think the OIC needs to become more robust and vocal and take pro-active initiatives.”
***OIC has done anything significant so far. With Turkish guy as Sec-Gen, OIC should first look inside and work on improving 57 member nations in terms of areas where it matters such as issues like gender discrimination, education/research. There is a lot that can be done without worrying about Ummah vs the rest of the world. rather than the West telling Muslim nations to watch human rights, OIC can work on those issues. It is empty talk platform so far.

“Pakistan may have been against India’s participation in OIC due to the ongoing Kashmir dispute. But as we inch closer to solution to Kashmir, there is no harm if India joins OIC.”
***See this is the problem. There is another way to look at it. When OIC issues a statement on Kashmir, India says shut up like it says to any 3rd party. It is much easier to support Kashmir when India is part of OIC. India cannot run away as part of OIC.

“Being part of OIC India can give a platform to its Muslim minority to get their voice heard. But it would have to be figured out what is the stance of Indian govt. on some issues. For example India has good diplomatic relations with Israel, will India strongly condemn Israel if it attacks Palestinian Muslims? That remains to be seen.”
***That’s right. It is strange that a country with such a large Muslim population is blocked to be a member or even observer in OIC. OIC giving Kashmir as reason for non-entry of India as a member is not helping Kashmir, as I said earlier.

There are atleast 3 OIC nations– Turkey, Jordan and Egypt– with diplomatic relation with Israel. Turkey has full diplomatic relations with Isreal and is the 1st Muslim nation to have relation with Israel since 50s. India started diplomatic relation with Isreal in 90s. compare with India as the 1st non-Arab country to recognize the PLO as a representative of the palestinian people. I also see that India is vocal in its support to palestine and even this year it condemned Isreal’s attack calling it disproportionate and unwarranted. I do not see a problem with Indian stand.

“But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected.”
***That is not true. Do not make it sound as if there is no Muslim living in Mumbai or not allowed. There were incidents when even big names from Bollywood faced the problem you mentioned. Mumbai is a complicated case. There you will see that North Indians (religion does not matter) are also discriminated but that is by Shiv Sena. Then you will have the cases I described.

Muslims in Mumbai perhaps face the same or much less discrimination than Pushtoons in Karachi due to Taliban label (people play safe). Regarding Muslims as 2nd class citizens, Gujarat was the worst case. I would not present the case as simply as 2nd class citizens. generalizations are misleading. There is disparity between Muslims and others (reference Sachar Committee report) but the committee did not give any reason. The reasons are important than playing the facts and correlating with a most favorite factor. We will discuss in detail some other time but religion is a mere correlation not a reason.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@wildbandit
“There is no war between the people of India and Pakistan, just the states. Animosity does exist, but only where our nations come into discussion.”

***This is so true. We need to remove or minimize those factors which come in the way of reconciliation. Mostly the animosity between bloggers is based on the wrong information, which we are not ready to fix especially coming from the opposite party. Majority of people have information from text books in school and later media/govt information. Amateurish blogs have played a role—my personal opinion is that they have played a negative role overall. I have suggested pre-1947 history should be the same in 2 countries. It is hard and is the job of scholars in the area to see if it is feasible.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

The separation of India and Pakistan was the end result of divide and rule or conquer, through religious hatred, by the british empire. Brits are long gone, ditto their empire but the hatred between indians and pakistanis remain. Ain’t that wonderful.

Posted by bkhjon | Report as abusive
 

@bkhjon
“Brits are long gone, ditto their empire but the hatred between indians and pakistanis remain.”

And Brits still get to consume the best of produce of both countries and in return we get piece of paper called “Pound”. Amazingly stupid on both India and Pakistan’s part. Sometimes I think are we really free in sense that it is still the Brits and/or other colonists that consume our best produce for minuscule prices, it was like that before 1947 also, so what has changed?

India Pakistan Bangladesh combined can be a real force with some of the world’s most hard working race, two of the world’s most fertile deltas, one of the most extensive river networks, and service provider to almost whole of the world. Only we need to put out irrelevant things like religion and caste. Religion is not for ruling/corrupting people it is instead for making people happy and content (and therefore should be ‘modified’ as per changing times). If religions ‘somehow’ become a ’cause/contributor’ of dispute then we should do away with religions. But ALAS that is too much to ask from people having blind faith in metaphysics and religions and this blind faith is eventually exploited by colonists like Brits. When will we learn from history????

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Let us at least have the consensus that we are all from Human race and humans have reflexes which can cause and later nourish the phobia. Do not read further if you do not agree with this premiss.
Germany to my knowledge is the only country which is sorrounded by more neighbours than any other country in the world. Two world wars emanated from its territory when extreme phobic conditions were in place, rightly or wrongly.
Pakistan in my analysis was born out of the muslim league phobia which they acquired from tireless discussions with the Indian Congress party. Jinnah’s speech to the NA refers to the conflicts among different ethnic groups.

Indian Congress party have never let go Pakistan with words and deeds and this could explain Omair’s straight comment on Pakistan existance.

Wikileak info tells us a first strike scenario, an offensive strategy and not a defensive one. This is bad real bad.
To avoid this occurring my propsal to Pakistan would be to terminate diplomatic relations with India which is unwilling to discuss the Kashmir issue with Pakistan or any other country. This would at least avoid military confrontation.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “To avoid this occurring my propsal to Pakistan would be to terminate diplomatic relations with India which is unwilling to discuss the Kashmir issue with Pakistan or any other country. This would at least avoid military confrontation.”

Who gets to cut of diplomatic ties with India? The civilian government? The military? The LeT? Al Qaeda? The only party that wants to discuss anything is the civilian government. While it goes through its diplomatic dance, the military and the “non state actors” start some other action.

First you must tell your fellow countrymen to unite and come to one consensus on any matter first. Then they must cut off diplomatic ties with India or cut off their heads. It does not matter.

We really do not care much for Pakistan other than its constant irritation using one agenda or another. So if Pakistan can focus on itself and do something right, that will do a lot of good to the whole world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Have you never realised that you are blówing in the wind most of the time. How can one have a dialogue with an Indian? I am really at a loss to understand.

You do not follow the guidelines of the Reuters Blog you accuse me of being a Pakistani and some of yourIt is better to terminate the

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Have you never realised that you are blówing in the wind most of the time. How can one have a dialogue with an Indian? I am really at a loss to understand.

You do not follow the guidelines of the Reuters Blog you accuse me of being a Pakistani and some of yourIt is better to terminate the

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
please ignore my comments. I have decided to break off diplomatic relations with you!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “I have decided to break off diplomatic relations with you!”

Here is another non-state actor declaring his foreign policy :-)

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat: “I have suggested pre-1947 history should be the same in 2 countries. It is hard and is the job of scholars in the area to see if it is feasible.”

Though this is a wonderful idea, in practicality, it resembles the wikileaks. It will expose the truth to many Pakistanis who would question the very idea of Pakistan. This is because prior to the 1930s, Muslims and non-Muslims had settled well with each other. There was no serious holy war between Muslims and others in the sub-continent. There sure were rulers from various religious backgrounds – ranging from Ranjit Singh to Tipu Sultan to Maharaja of Gwalior. Each one had militaries made up soldiers ranging from brahmins to Afghans. Some manned the logistics and some manned the canons. There were states launching wars against other states – religion was never a factor. The Bamani Sultans of Deccan who mostly belonged to the Shia sect of Islam were Afghans. The Mysore Sultanate headed by Hyder Ali and his son Tipu Sultan in deep South was at odds with the Nizam of Hyderabad. Both were going against each other to control important river and other resources. There is plenty of Portuguese chronicles that describe the wars between the southern states, including the Vijayanagar empire about the control of these vital resources. Ranjit Singh ruled from Lahore and had a very modern army built with the help of French. It had all kinds of people in it. Mughal army was mostly made up of Rajputs and was in loggerheads with sultanates in Oudh, Bengal etc. Alliances changed periodically. Everything pretty much resembled the electoral alliance and party politics of modern India.

If one searched through this history, he will find nothing to substantiate a threat for Muslims anywhere. People had settled well with their co-existent cultures. Each community knew where the limits were and lived within those limits.

It was the British who emasculated the Muslims in the sub-continent after the Sepoy mutiny in 1857. They encouraged non-Muslims in civil service and administrative positions. Muslims were pushed into a backward position as a deliberate attempt by the colonial administration. Only when they realized that the coolies who went to England and got Western education there began to demand similar rights, did they realize that in the long run the empire would not survive. If they lost India, they lost everything. So they began the process of dividing. The idea of Pakistan was hatched in London. Jinnah became their agent. He had his own personal ambition and they simply fueled it and supported it by letting him build the wall of separation.

If Pakistanis read the history prior to 1947 for themselves, many will begin to question why all this was needed. If they get to see more of India, they would realize that things are not all that bad. People are trying to make a decent living and their priority is not religion. They will look back at all the violence, wars and destruction, nuclear confrontation etc and wonder why all these were needed and for whose benefit? They will realize that their military has been an agent of the colonial and cold war powers in order to keep the divide wider and wider. Now that the cold war power has turned against them, this would be a good time for them to think hard on what the underlying reality is.

Much like the embarrassed followers of a Godman caught in a sex scandal, many Pakistanis might find it hard to swallow the truth that they are victims of massive manipulation. Paranoia against India has been fueled and sustained by their military to keep them blind folded. Letting them read true history will expose the British, the Americans, and their own selfish leaders.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Singh you are second class citizens in India, only needed to fight wars with Pakistan, so stop talking so dreamily about your India, the Hindu establishment does not consider you equal.

As for Pakistan, we are very comfortable in our skin knowing that India can never invade or threaten Pakistans existence, those days are gone, it is India and Indians that are obsessed with Pakistan, your multiple posts here are proof.

Pakistanis have moved on beyond the petty mindedness, and you will rarely find Pakistani posters on a Indian topic, but its the reverse with Indians, you are all obssessed with Pakistan, maybe despite our 1/4th size, we stand up eye to eye with Indians on every playing field. This your obssession, but thats what we do, we are that good.

Posted by m1ldbrew | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
“Here is another non-state actor declaring his foreign policy ”

-This statement from a ‘sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir). :(

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair said:

-This statement from a ’sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir).

Even if you have a problem with the Indian state, there is no need to call KP Singh names. I can assure you he has done nothing at all in Kashmir, just as you are personally not responsible for the East Bengal genocide!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “This statement from a ’sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir)”

Looks like you have run out of ideas. So you are back with Kashmir and given me the honor of being a sponsor of terrorism and that too as a state representative. The topic is about pulling the teeth of Pakistan’s military (denuclearization). It is not even about sharing history prior to 1947. Shall we return to the topic? Think why the world is talking about nukes in Pakistan, Iran and North Korea and never about the nukes in China, India, Israel, UK, France, Russia and the US? There must be some genuine reason for it. The reason is this – the cultures in the three countries are volatile. They do not think much and can get close to insane levels. Look at what North Korea has done recently? Listen to the talks of the Iranian leaders. The world definitely is worried. Pakistan can always drop a nuke and blame it on a non-state wing of the ISI about which “no one knew anything.” Pakistan’s nukes is the main reason why its non state actor groups have become bolder. They know that they can act with impunity and if India retaliates, it will bring in Pakistani military into the picture. And Pakistani military has already decided that it will do nothing other than push the nuke button. We in India want to live better and work towards bringing in more prosperity. Nukes are only meant as a deterrent. Wikileaks clearly mention about concerns on Pakistan’s support of terrorist groups and its using China to thwart UN sanctions against those groups. And Pakistan has sponsored Islamic terrorism which has gone out of control of late. The danger of radicalized elements gaining control over the nukes is very high. Hence the concern about removing the nukes from Pakistan. It has nothing to do with Pakistanis being wonderful people.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

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