Afghan Journal
Lifting the veil on conflict, culture and politics
Denuclearising Pakistan
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At about the time WikiLeaks released tens of thousands of U.S. diplomatic cables, including one related to a secret attempt to remove enriched uranium from a Pakistani research reactor, a top Pakistani military official held a briefing for journalists that focused on U.S.-Pakistan ties.
Dawn’s Cyril Almeida has written a piece based on the officer’s comments made on the condition of anonymity, and they offer the closest glimpse you can possibly get of the troubled ties between the allies.
First off, as the officer says, Pakistan has gone from being the “most sanctioned ally” to the “most bullied ally” of the United States. Presumably the sanctions that the officer is referring to relate to those imposed on Pakistan following its nuclear tests in 1998. And as for the most bullied ally the other comments offer a clue:
These include and I quote from Almeida’s piece:
“The U.S. still has a transactional relationship with Pakistan; the U.S. is interested in perpetuating a state of controlled chaos; and perhaps most explosively given the WikiLeaks revelations, the “real aim of U.S. strategy is to de-nuclearise Pakistan.”
U.S. and Pakistani security interests aren’t the same including over Afghanistan and India, the military officer says. And while Islamabad understood America’s growing focus on North Waziristan, it had to first settle South Waziristan and also factor in the blowback any operation in the area would stoke. The officer intriguingly also talks about indications that parties in the conflict in Afghanistan can renounce al Qaeda and even ask it to leave Afghanistan. In other words he is suggesting that the Taliban are ready to break ties with al Qaeda and if so that removes a big obstacle to peace talks.
But clearly the most significant revelation from the briefing which reflects frank exchanges between the upper echelons of the Pakistan military and the Obama administration is the one about the the nuclear disarmament of Pakistan. There isn’t any further elaboration in Almeida’s article but taken together with the WikiLeaks disclosures it seems to confirm the Pakistani people’s worst fears. America is on its borders and its overriding objective is to eliminate Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, its national asset and deterrent against much larger and nuclear-armed India. Indeed the whole idea that the United States has Pakistan’s nuclear programme in its sights just as it has virtually recognised India as a legitimate nuclear weapon state must rankle deep across Pakistan.
“The people of Pakistan measure the strength of U.S.-Pak relations on the scale of the U.S.-India partnership,” the military officer is quoted as saying.
According to WikiLeaks, the United States has been secretly trying to convince Pakistan to allow it to remove uranium from a research reactor on fears it may be stolen or diverted for use in a nuclear device. But Pakistan has refused visits from American experts, according to a May 2009 report by former U.S. Ambassador Anne W.Patterson because “If the local media got word of the fuel removal, they would certainly portray it as the United States taking Pakistan’s nuclear weapons,” a Pakistani official told her.
The question is which reactor the Americans are talking about? Top Pakistani nuclear scientist Pervez Hoodbhoy thinks the report probably refers to the enriched uranium that Pakistan received under the Atoms for Peace programme that America ran for several countries including India back in the 1960s. He told the Christian Science Monitor that the only reactor running on highly enriched uranium was a small 5mw facility at PINSTECH closed to Islamabad. Pakistan whose weapons programme is based on the uranium enrichment route rather than plutonium has since built its own capability. Any attempt to remove the uranium from that particular reactor is not going to impair its nuclear programme.
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Pakistan faces a certain level of existential threat from India, If Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent capability is neutralized that existential threat from India will significantly increase. Pakistan Army has always kept in consideration the level of existential threat eminating from India and has held the view that Afghan Taliban can be retained as a bulwark against India’s foor print in Afghanistan.
In this context, the doctrine of ‘minimum credible nuclear deterrence’ and ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan becomes even more valid. Pakistan is at the point of no return and Pakistan Army cannot compromise on these two issues. Knowing that conventional comparison with India is not possible, it is left to the nuclear deterrence to ensure the country’s very existence is never threatened by an emboldened India.
Pushing for Pakistan’s denuclearization (read deprive Pakistan of ‘minimum credible nuclear deterrence’) either covertly or overtly will throw everyone off balance. An emboldened India will be more opportunistic to committ aggression in times of crisis. As the balance of power is altered, it would destabilize the region further with grave consequences. As the stakes get higher and choices are made, it will be clear how things unfold. If there is any single thing that Pakistan would fight to the end, it will be its nuclear capability.
The sooner the US realize this and accepts Pakistan as a global nuclear power the better it is. Any other options do not look good.
Not the right title or the right photo for the article?
@Umair
There is an imbalance between the elites of the military and the civilian Govt. in Pakistan. It will take a long time to correct it. People of Pakistan are the wealth of the country but their potential has never been exploited fully. Pakistan has of this day failed to make a Nation out of the colourful mix of people, with different cultures, traditions and background. What is the identity of a Pakistan citizen? The divides are too many now and with military in the forefront the society is very radical.
Is Pakistan Govt. in a position to provide security for all its citizens? These are very deep questions and it is becoming increasingly difficult for any outsider to understand pakistan foreign policy, since it has nuclear weapons. For example how come Pakistan is waisting its resourses on weapons and not trying to improve the well being of its people? Even the Poope commenting that christian minority was always mistreated in Pakistan. I know it is a lie, but the perception is that Pakistan Govt. is not giving attention to its minorities.
The USA admin. is no position to denuclearise either Pakistan or any other country. The USA is fighting for its survival as the leader of the free world and this is their main pre-occupation. Mr Obama has now a lame duck admin. for the next two years. There is only one option he has got left to get the congress behind him to start a third front for his military.
Pakistan Govt. need to follow a policy of self reliance and an independent, credible and transparent foreign policy! I guess this is too much to expect?
Rex Minor
ZA Bhutto said Pakistanis would acquire nuclear weapons even if they had to eat grass. It appears he got both his wishes.
Hunger may be a bigger existential threat than India, and they should watch that. People can’t live on isotopes.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umair,
I will not get into a discussion into the ‘existential threat’ from India, as I know we will never agree on this…..anyhow we agree to disagree.
Personally, my opinion is that as long as any country possesses a single nuclear weapon, and the US reportedly has over 12,000 of them, there is no way that others will not want to have them too for their own safety and security. Therefore for anyone to demand that Pakistan be denuclearised, is stupid and illogical. More so when those arguing for it, themselves have huge nuclear arsenals. We cannot have a world where some are recognised and some not recognised as nuclear weapons’ states – this is an absurd expectation.
That being said, I think the bigger anxiety is the possibility of nuclear weapons getting into the hands of terrorist, non-state actors and radical organisations. That is the real problem that everyone worries about. And in the case of Pakistan it appears that there is a greater possibility that it can happen as compared to other countries. That, to my mind, is the real issue.
That is what really needs to be addressed.
Dara:
The fears you express have been surfacing over time, plz read the following from
PAKISTAN’S NUCLEAR FUTURE:
WORRIES BEYOND WAR
STRATEGIC STUDIES INSTITUTE (SSI) US ARMY WAR COLLEGE
“An Improvised Nuclear Device (IND), while clearly more
effective in terms of destruction than a Radiological
Dispersion Device (RDD), is more complex and
therefore a less likely approach. However, most of
the nuclear facilities around the world, including
in the United States, would not be able to provide a
reliable defense against attacks as large as terrorists
have already proved that they can mount.2 According
to the Lugar Survey, the possibility of a weapons of
mass destruction (WMD) attack against a city or other
target somewhere in the world is real and increasing
over time. The median estimate of the probability of a
radiological attack over 10 years was twice (40 percent)
as high as the estimate for a nuclear or biological attack
during the same period.3 Thus a strategy should reduce
the consequences of those nuclear attacks that are the
most likely and limit the probability of attacks with the
highest consequences.4
Given the above considerations, Pakistan’s vulnerability
to nuclear terrorism and the consequences
during movement of radioactive materials through two
possible hypothetical case studies are reviewed. The
first is a successful terrorist attack on Spent Nuclear
Fuel (SNF) during transportation and shipment. This
scenario is less probable because of expected physical
protection measures, and SNF shipments are not
anticipated in the near future in Pakistan. The second
is the more likely of the two, a terrorist attack on high
activity radioactive sources being transported within
Pakistan.
As the threat of global terrorism has grown, so
too has the Government of Pakistan’s nuclear power
program. Today it envisages an expansion in its nuclear
power program from its current production capacity
of 437MWe to 8,800 MWe by 2030.18 Besides nuclear
power plants, two research reactors, and one
commercial irradiation plant (PARAS) at Lahore,
numerous high activity radioactive sources are being
used for research and development (R&D), commercial,
industrial, and medical purposes. The vulnerability of
these facilities to nuclear terrorism cannot be ignored,
especially in the current context of Pakistan’s active
participation with U.S. and Western Allies in the War
on Terror.
Today, there are hundreds of tons of nuclear material,
not just in the former Soviet Union, but in dozen of
countries around the world that remain dangerously
vulnerable to theft. As a part of Nunn-Lugar and other
initiatives, the United States has secured 54 percent
of the buildings housing such materials, leaving still
substantial work needed to be done before the target
completion year 2008.19 Stocks of fissile material in
the United States, in spite of higher security measures
compared to other states, may be vulnerable to
attack because of flaws in protective measures.
—————————
The Pakistan Nuclear Regulatory Authority
(PNRA) has been applying stringent measures for
administrative and engineering controls over such
radioactive sources.
—————————
In short, with multi-layer security mechanisms, physical security of nuclear sites, PAL(Permissive Action links) or electronic codes technology to ‘lock’ the weapons render them useless even if stolen, high level security clearence for personnel/psychological profiling etc ensure the safety and security of Pakistan’s nuclear program. Despite Pakistan’s repeated progress in the area, so far Pakistan has not been recognized as a nuclear power. India on the other hand have been offered a civilian nuclear deal, this is just biased. Besides, baseless fears about Pakisatn nuclear security do not help either, nuclear sites around the world are at similar risk of being targeted by terrorist. Why single out Pakistan?
Pakistan needs nuclear wepons as a deterent aginst arch enemy india.It is a false propoganda that these arms are not safe.They are more safe than any other country in the world,say as usa,russia.The indian nukes are not safe at all.There have been sever security laps at indian nuclear sites.The world should worry about them than Pakistan.
I do not believe that India has any gains to from being an enemy of Pakistan, though I must admit that most of the Indian leaders have been a pain in the neck of Pakistan leaders ever since Pakistan came into being. Pakistan civilian leaders on the other hand have been erratic and emotional in dealing with India. Why does Pakistan continue to have diplomatic relations with India,if it is of an existential threat to Pakistan?
Here we are in the 21st century and in the world of internet and wikileaks, and yet there are those who are hanging on to secrecy, machiavelli style of politics and deception even with its declared allies as well as its own citizens.
Transparency and honesty not deceit, peoples interest not personal gains, country’s interest not foreign interest should be the guidelines for country leaders. Those who do not believe in the call of the day should step aside or be sent into retirement.
We have had enough of Blairs, Bushes and disapointed with Obama the new God with the clintonians, who always knew what is better for their citizens than the citizens themselves who elected them into power.
For Pakistan, enough with showing niceties and paying lip service to the USA, which is economicaly and moraly broke in real sense. It is currently being administrated with a hoards of analogue advisers, some of them in eighties but most of them incompetent and no one better to replace him. I recall Opera’s words about Mr Obama; IS HE THE ONE? Well they had Colin Powel, Condi Rice and now Obama, who is the next saviour; Sarha Pellin? God help America.
For Pakistan the Gillani/Zardari outfit and the cronies in the Govt. have done more harm than providing any real benefits of a competent civilin Govt. They have almost ruined the credibility of Pakistan. If the guys are misfits then they should be decent enough to come forward, accept responsibility for the unrests in the country. Pakistan does not need another Bhutto, nor is able to live on grass, while the privlaged ones are having vacation homes in the UK and bank accounts in switzerland.
Pakistan must look inwards and sort out the mess it has created, not being able to provide security for its people but strong enough to destroy the remaining credibility of the USA forces. And strong enough to destroy any other potential enemy, instead of pretences that it can defeat the so called Pakistan Talibans.
Rex Minor
@Rex Minor,
I agree the relationship is quite complicated between Pakistan and India, with Pakistan adding far more effort to retain existing complications than adding even 1/10 of that effort towards building goodwill, and trust.
If wikileaks is any indication, which suggests that Pakistan continues to support mumbai terrorist groups and 3 other militant groups against India, Pakistan is a more than willing partner to retain complications with India.
Lying lying and more lying by Pakistan is not the way to build friendships and trust.
The lying and extorting must stop from Pakistan. Liars will never win.
This eternal need to keep India as an enemy is a mental illness of Pakistan and this must stop.
I guarantee you, if pakistan stops full support of these groups, within a year or two, the two countries can be well on their way to going on with normal business and relations.
Wikileaks has made no indication of interference of Indian in baluchistan, alleged by many Pakistani’s.
So one has to ask, why is Pakistan insisting on supporting these groups?
As I said, this must stop.
“Pakistan faces a certain level of existential threat from India, If Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent capability is neutralized that existential threat from India will significantly increase. Pakistan Army has always kept in consideration the level of existential threat eminating from India and has held the view that Afghan Taliban can be retained as a bulwark against India’s foor print in Afghanistan.”
–>Umair, you have disappointed me again, my estranged Punjabi brother.
You must stop perpetuating old myths and hysteria, that were not even true to begin with.
What moral ground will India be able to hold, if India did something so bold and wrong as to try to hurt Pakistan, for any unsubstantiated reason? Do you not think that it would politically divide India, given that India has a large muslim population? do you think that the United States would sit by idly, if India were just for its own interest and own sake, hurt Pakistan unprovoked?
Most of your country needs to undergo a psychiatric examination, because its apparent that nobody there is capable of really using their mind anymore. Everybody just believes fear and hate based hysteria, the political motive and power needed for Fauji’s to keep their jobs.
The lies and perpetuated myths must stop. They must end. God is privy to all of the lies. Pakistan was the aggressor and starter of each of the wars since partition, so any sensible person here knows that India IS NOT THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT!
The threat to all, is Pakistani unwillingness to unclench its fist and unwillingness to compromise or adopt another point of or evolve beyond its own hidden sense of historical shame and damaged ego, all of this is the biggest existential threat to the world.
Nxclear Armed nations should not be support militant groups and blackmail countries. As soon as you have done that, you have lost moral support for retaining this status, and superpowers will lose the stomach to tolerate states that dance with militants and preach wanting peace in the same breath.
@Umair, I agree with you, Pakistan is responsible with its nxklear material and weapons, that is not the issue.
The issue is one of trust, one of shifting political alliances and the corruption liars that run the system. Even your best institution, the Army has shown time and again to be lying, making stories and undermining allies.
Again, the world is not worried of the safeguards, the world is worried because they do not trust Pakistan.
Trust is the issue, not security of the materials.
@GW
Sorry, the time is past, Pakistan military does not have a year or two to wait for the grace of India. We are the dumb spectators to rely on political statements coming out from India, Pakistan and the USA. All the three parties are engaged in deceits and under cover operations against one another. Pakistan military has been supporting the so called afghan talibans who are resisting USA and Nato forces( says the ex ISI director on BBC) as well as those who are resisting Indian forces in Kashmir. It would seem from the leaked documents that the USA diplomats were fully aware of the complicated situation. USA has been running in paralel an under cover CIA organised operation in Pakistan territory. Not to ignore the Drones missions.
These are the classic conditions in which Pashtoons operate successfully. In other words, they must have convinced the pakistan military to let the americans operate on the Pakistan side of the border along with their drones instead of sending Pakistan military units. The Pashtoons know how to defend themselves in their territory.
Not a peaceful outlook for the people of the subcontinent.
Hillary Clinton foreign policy is in tatters. Deceit and insincere relations with its allies from Germany, Turkey to Pakistan!
No wonder the wikileak boss has gone underground, interpol is looking for him, now that his next leak is going to be about a USA Bank.
Rex Minor
It is not so much about India being an existential threat to Pakistan. The underlying reason is different. Pakistan wants the nukes as a backing for its evil activities against India. It is like throwing stones into the neighbor’s house and bullying them. The neighbor is prevented from punishing by pointing a canon at his window. When India cut Pakistan in half in 1971, Pakistan went all out for nuclear capability to provide enough strategic cover for itself for its future plans on India. Pakistanis might be nice people, but its military is made up of warped individuals who have grown up looking at India as an entity that needs to be made to dance to their tunes. Nukes provide that capability to them. So if they trigger a Mumbai style attack using their non-state actor departments, India is unable to do anything. And that gives them as well as Pakistanis immeasurable thrill. India did punish Pakistan during the Kargil conflict. I
Continuing from above..
India has kept its nukes to demonstrate that it has the scientific depth to match other countries in the world. It has also done the same thing in missile technology, lunar missions, satellite technology, biotech, medical area, automobiles, steel making etc. India has always wanted to be respected as a nation for its research and development depth. Nukes come from that stand point. In addition, they are China specific.Pakistan is most welcome to develop its nukes. But what has happened is its demonstration of irresponsibility in regards to proliferation of dangerous technology to rogue states like North Korea. And somehow it has decided that having nukes gives it the complete freedom to launch its proxy offensive using non-state actors against India. It is from this angle Indians would like to get those nukes out of Pakistan’s hands. The US has different reasons. Al Qaeda wants those nukes to use against US citizens. Some of the senior Pakistani nuke scientists have dealt with Al Qaeda in the past. In the case of India, a denuclearized Pakistan will not dare support terrorist groups aimed at India. No one is going to be able to remove the nukes from Pakistan. We will leave it to the Americans to figure it out, since it is under their blessings that Pakistan got to where it is. One day the US will pay a price for it and then will come after Pakistan. It is not a wish. It is a reality that is going to happen in the near future. Pakistan has not done much to clear out those volatile elements in its belly because of its India obsession. And those elements will hit the US one day. Then hell will break loose.
Umair,
If I remember right I did read this report, perhaps on the net or in print, a few months ago or something similar anyway. Thanks for putting it here all the same.
While Pakistan is not the only country from where nuclear technology or material can be lifted, the fact is that internationally Pakistan seems the one most vulnerable and at more risk than others. Pakistan may claim it has made fool proof arrangements, it probably has, even the US has said it is satisfied that the nuclear arsenal is safe or adequately protected. Even so, doubts remain.
There are reservations the world over that there can be pilferage and leakages, maybe even from within. Unfortunately Pakistan has itself to blame because the world cannot forget AQ Khan’s activities. Most even do not believe that it was just him alone and that there was official connivance. So like it or not, that is the perception that prevails. It is up to Pakistan, if it wants to, to convince the outside world otherwise.
I can understand that once India went nuclear, Pakistan had to do something for itself. I don’t think anyone can fault that thinking, given the past. However, what people seem to have overlooked is that while Pakistan may have gone nuclear to safeguard against Indian nuclear capability, India in turn had what it considered a serious Chinese nuclear threat to thwart. India’s nuclear programme was initiated to neutralise a Chinese threat. That is why I said yesterday, it is stupid to expect and demand that some countries remain nuclear have-nots, while a few chosen ones safeguard their own security by declaring themselves ‘responsible’ nuclear powers. That is a farce.
@Pakistan, Umair,
What is best for Pakistan, is to willingly denuclearize and declare itself as neutral territory.
It would not take long before militantism withers, once the nxkes are removed.
Pakistan can become a moderate, peaceful muslim country like Jordan, prosperous like Turkey and moderate like Egypt.
The nxkes that Pakistan has only brought militantism and more death to Pakistani’s and wars.
No progress has been made by having a nxke program, except placing temporary bandages on the wounds of a bruised ego….and a free reign to blackmail and extort money.
It is best that Pakistan focusses on its best resource, its people, their education, living and advancement.
Heavy water and spent bundles will not fill their stomachs and neigther will grass or dirt, as the floods have destroyed much of that too.
Battering poor Pakistan, how do countries like India trust US now?
Arvind Pereira
http://www.ArvindLeoPereira.co.nr
DaraIndia:
“While Pakistan is not the only country from where nuclear technology or material can be lifted, the fact is that internationally Pakistan seems the one most vulnerable and at more risk than others.”
-Dara, here is the thing;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United _States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incide nt
In the US back in 2007 there was an incident in which 6 nuclear weapons were loaded on a USAF B-52 bomber and left unattented mistakenly without reporting for 36 hours on the tarmac of the airbase without mandatory security precautions. Moreover, currently the massive disclosure of hundereds of thousands of classified diplomatic cables show that even a super power like the US is not immune. How do you compare Pakistan’s record now?
Prasad:
“ZA Bhutto said Pakistanis would acquire nuclear weapons even if they had to eat grass. It appears he got both his wishes.
Hunger may be a bigger existential threat than India, and they should watch that.”
-Below is the answer;
———————————————————-
“The weak and the defenseless in this world invite aggression from others. The best way we can serve peace is by removing the temptation from the path of those who think we are weak and, for that reason, they can bully or attack us. That temptation can only be removed if we make ourselves so strong that nobody dare entertain any aggressive designs against us. Pakistan has come to stay and no power on earth can destroy it.”
February 1948, the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah
———————————————————-
This pretty much sums up the origin of Pakistan’s nuclear quest. This country was formed to remain, not that every 25 years attacked by agressors and gradually cease to exist. We have witnessed restraint in times of crisis be it Kargil 1999, border stadoff 2001-02 Mumbai 08, it is too risky to attack Pakistan. While 1971 was an exception, after that the nuclear program was advanced rapidly and by late 80s Pakistan already had the bomb. Lets also look at Z.A Bhutto’s statement and in what context did he give it;
“If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass and leaves for a thousand years, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own. The Christians have the bomb, the Jews have the bomb and now the Hindus have the bomb. Why not the Muslims too have the bomb?”
-Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Pakistan PM (1974)
There’s a strong case for the denuclearization of Pakistan & I’m glad that the US is making an effort towards that goal. The Pakistani State, is a proven proliferator of nuclear weapons (AQ Khan was made the scape goat but there’s no doubt about the state’s involvement). It’s the Headquarters for most Jihadi groups in the world & radicalization is on the rise. Senior Pakistani officials, politicians & intellectuals have acknowledged that there could be many rogue elements within the rank & file of the Pakistani military, who are in bed with various terror outfits.
All the talk about Pakistan’s nukes meant to thwart an “existential threat” from India is a bunch of nonsense, fed to the Pakistani people by it’s military establishment. The real reason that the Pakistani establishment needs it’s nukes, is to hold the world ransom & extort billions of $$$. The only reason that the US & the world are keeping Pakistan alive today, is because of it’s nukes & the Pakistani military establishment knows that too well. It’s analogous to a petty thug gaining “respect”, by getting a gun. I quote a senior US official with regard to Pakistan from yestrday’s Washington Post “If Pakistan had no nukes, we would have let it go to hell, a long time ago. They would have been no more important to us than Congo”
ISI is a pretty mighty organisation! I know you guys have been writing about it and I thought it was nothing more than a paranoi. It would appear from the former ISI chief statement on BBC that Pakistan military is supporting the resistance groups in Pakistan and Afghanistan activities, including those Talibans who are resisting the Americans and nato forces. Gentlemen, the stakes have been raised now, not by Pakistan but by the american new Administtration.
According to Wikileak,USA diplomats are under orders by the new administration to provide intelligence about their allies as well as enemies. A warning to Indian and Pakistani leaders, they are all subject to blackmail in case they are having private affairs on the side. If the US ambassador in Germany can send a detailed life story of the German Foreign minister and his sexual habits I wonder what sort of info the USA ambassadors in India and Pakistan have written about the leaders of those countries. This is getting very serious fellows, more sinister than the N*kes.
Do not get excited about the few dollys of Pakistan which can be got rid of any time by using it against the intruders.
Rex Minor
PS In my estimates Pakistan is taking hell of a risk to allow the tranport of NATO supplies to Afghanistan! The Govt. of Pakistan should increase the fee to at least two billion dollars a year now that Pakistan needs to resettle its displaced citizens, due to war and floods.
It Is Not The United States Or Even India That Are The Greatest Threat To Pakistan Instead That Threat OrginatesFrom The Islamic Insurgents And Insurgency That It Has Aided And Abetted Them And It For The Duration Of This Struggle Against Islam’s Satanic Legions.Of Course They Have To Turn The Blame For Their Own Stupidity On Someone Else. But What Can You Expect From Unmittigated Morons.
@Mr Pereira
Good point, but do not worry!
Indian and Pakistani leaders have a lot of experience in this game. Remember Indian’s great friend and ally, the communist USSR? Indians now hate communism, I mean the majority of them and are now friends with the leader of the free world, the USA! Pakistan equally had a great experience with USA, who dumped them in trouble times and did not come to aid when Pakistan was under attack. Pakisttan not only turned towards china but also made sure that the freeze between China and the the old friend USA ends. Some of Pakistan leaders are friendly with Israel leaders, atleast in international public places, but in pakistan critise Israel’s actions against poor people of palestine. Now they are once again allies of the USA and still maintain very close relations with its ally CHINA. and covertly support the activities of the RESISTANCE.
TheyPakistan) have few long range and short range harmless weapons for the dooms days and it is making both the so called ally as well as the neighbour, despite the fact that both USA and India have enough N*kes to clean up the continent.
Rex Minor
PS
Sorry Mr Pareira to disturb you from your rtatio analysis work. Tell us when your book is ready for publication.
Rex Minor
@Umair
“….Pakistan has come to stay and no power on earth can destroy it.”
February 1948, the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah
***I hear the same thing now. so it was started 60yrs ago. Not sure why.
“This pretty much sums up the origin of Pakistan’s nuclear quest. This country was formed to remain, not that every 25 years attacked by agressors and gradually cease to exist. We have witnessed restraint in times of crisis be it Kargil 1999, border stadoff 2001-02 Mumbai 08, it is too risky to attack Pakistan.”
***This also suggests the origin of Pakistan’s quest for nukes.
you know that Kargil 1999, border stadoff 2001-02 Mumbai 08, were all due to direct or indirect provocation by Pakistan. Why the logic is sitting upside down?
Umair said:
> -Below is the answer;
You didn’t understand my comment, then.
There is no need to justify the acquisition of nuclear weapons. It is certainly possible to argue that nuclear weapons in the hands of both India and Pakistan now act as a deterrent to all-out war, and are therefore a good thing.
My point is that Pakistan should now have the confidence to pursue peace with India.
Let me make a deliberately provocative statement here. It appears Pakistanis are collectively stupid because they cannot change their strategy from “Kashmir first, peace afterwards” to “Peace first, Kashmir afterwards”. In the 62 years since the tribal invasion of Kashmir, the borders have not shifted. What is the chance of anything happening now? Zero. India is strong and getting stronger. What makes Pakistanis think India will give up Kashmir now? Pakistanis should concentrate on improving the lot of their citizens. That’s more important than harping on a single issue that isn’t going to get resolved. They should have the collective wisdom to set aside the Kashmir dispute and pursue peaceful development and good relations with India for a few years. Kashmir will sort itself out to the satisfaction of all parties after a few years of genuine peace. Currently, we have a state of constant tension, which is not genuine peace. The status quo does not benefit Pakistan at all. They need to break the impasse for their own sake. India is doing just fine under the current environment and developing quite nicely, so the ball is not in India’s court. In five years, the inequality will deepen in India’s favour and it will be even harder for Pakistan to negotiate on terms favourable to itself. Can any Pakistani see this?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@haymiedj
why bring Islam and satanic legions together!
Iranian shia clerk has given the satan title to the USA, its legions are now engaged in several parts of the world and has successfully destabilised the world!
The Sunni clerks are still deliberating on this issue! Being a non believer, You are probably not aware that there is only one Satan for the world. Islam is the religion of over a billion and a half believers and is the fastest growing in the world. Now be fair and tell us who is a moron? I am sure we do not want again the clash of civilisations, the crusaders were squarely defeated and let us not repeat the history again. Peace and Peace is what the people of the world want!
Rex Minor
Peace first and kashmir afterwards is the same as peace first and palestine state afterwards, the slogan that Israelis leaders have been preaching for decades.
There is no peace and no paölestine and no kashmir! Let us pass the buck to the next generations.
Let India and Pakistan get its people out of poverty. Six year or less old Indian children were shown on the German television last night who are earning their livelyhood in the stone Industy. Their life expectancy is less than thirty years. NGO’s are discouraging the import of such products from India, Pakistan and Bangla Desh which employs children in the manufacture of the products.
You guys are living with illusions, Obama supports publicly India to have the permanent seat in UNO security Council and Hillary Clinton is making a mockery of such a wish. For God’s sake grow up, all your weapons were made for your destraction not for others!! This has been the the experience of mankind, we learn from history. People are the most dangerous species not the weapons, pray that the Pashtoons do not take the direction of Indian borders, India will have nothing left to be proud of, it is the fear which is not in the DNA of the Afghans! No offence, just the potential consequences for the crusaders. Let us not try to wake up the ghosts to life. Muslim invaders did rule the major portion of the world from India to middle east, north africa to spain, france. Austria, Buda and Pest and Balkans to central Asia.
We all want peace and let us try to find ways to peace. The road to war is uncertain!
Rex Minor
Rex Minor:
“For God’s sake grow up, all your weapons were made for your destraction not for others!! This has been the the experience of mankind, we learn from history.”
-Rex, thank you for the reason and wisdom, indeed yours is a noble thought. But unfortunately in the subcontinent South Asia, the price of peace is nuclear bomb.
Mortal:
“There’s a strong case for the denuclearization of Pakistan & I’m glad that the US is making an effort towards that goal. The Pakistani State, is a proven proliferator of nuclear weapons (AQ Khan was made the scape goat but there’s no doubt about the state’s involvement). It’s the Headquarters for most Jihadi groups in the world & radicalization is on the rise.”
-Look Mortal, I understand the level of frustration people like you go through and I would not make it more miserable for you. What ever Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation record, Jihadism or radicalization that is a seperate issue. But as someone has stated, ‘we all can reach our dreams if we have the courage to pursue them’. If you intend to take out Pakistan’s nukes, why don’t you simply go ahead and try it? Let me see your dream come true, but as we all know that billions of $$, thousands of troops Killed, a decade of war and coalition of 50+ countries(US+NATO with all mechanized Army) next door in Afghanistan could not even subdue the Taliban. Just looks as though your chances of snatching Pakistan’s nukes are even more slim. But as I stated, until you try you never know if you will succeed or not. So the question is do you have the courage?
BTW lets get reminded what founder of Pakistan said in 1948, and i quote:
““The weak and the defenseless in this world invite aggression from others. The best way we can serve peace is by removing the temptation from the path of those who think we are weak and, for that reason, they can bully or attack us. That temptation can only be removed if we make ourselves so strong that nobody dare entertain any aggressive designs against us. Pakistan has come to stay and no power on earth can destroy it”.
Lastly, just keep in mind, we have no enmity with anyone nor any nefarious designs. We would like to co-exist in peace as long as you would like to.
Prasad:
” It appears Pakistanis are collectively stupid because they cannot change their strategy from “Kashmir first, peace afterwards” to “Peace first, Kashmir afterwards”. In the 62 years since the tribal invasion of Kashmir, the borders have not shifted. What is the chance of anything happening now? Zero. India is strong and getting stronger. What makes Pakistanis think India will give up Kashmir now?”
-Prasad, we have no problem with ‘peace first Kashmir afterwards’ it is just a few days back when our foreign minister stated we would like to settle the Kashmir dispute with India. The leaked classified diplomatic cables from US Embassy Islamabad show the same story, US mediators, Pakistani and Indian officials all believe the only way forward is dialogue. What I also do not understand is despite in public both governments vow to settle Kashmir why there is no progress.
Having said that, let me tell you what is most dangerous about your line of thinking that since India is strong what makes Pakistan think India will make any concession on Kashmir. The problem begins when Kashmiri youth throws his computer log off from facebook and Youtube and finally decide to pick up an AK-47 assault rifle. If Kashmir erupts it will be a nightmare for everyone, you better not let it reach that stage.
In Palestine, Israel uses the same thinking, it has enough military power and thinks it can subdue and occupy the entire population. But that produced intifada and suicide bombers, today Israel is the most insecure psychotic nation, even a firecraker makes them run and hide in their underground bunkers.
It is only so long we can keep the Kashmir wound festering, the infection is already taking its toll, I am afraid a stage will reach when the part of that body will have to be amputated to save the rest of the body. But if we still do not realize, maybe it will become a critical life threatening situation. And the backdrop, India was a NAM country non-aligned, Gandhi championed non-violence and India is successful today because of its soft image around the world. Once Kashmir will erupt all that will change, the world will see the human rights atrocities and UN permanent member will be compelled to implement the UN security council resolutions. Think about, maybe you are wrong to put the blame on Pakistan. Thank you for engaging and keeping the dialogue going.
continued…
Prasad:
The white racist regime in South Africa during the aparthied felt the same way. They were strong, they had a nuclear program, they had a strong military and during the bush wars they crushed the black liberation fighters.
But just look up ‘Soweto uprising 1976′ Soweto is a Township near Johannesburg, when it erupted against the aparthied regime, what started as students protests, eventually took down the aparthied regime and finally it crumbled. This is what happens when the youth of a nation stand up and put up a fight, not even the mightiest of Military stand up in their way. You must not remain under any illusion regarding Kashmir, I have spent holidays on Pakistan’s side Kashmir. These are wonderful people and a wonderful place like paradise. Hope peace prevails. If Kashmir erupts from within, that is when trouble will start for India. Not that Pakistan would ignite the flames of seething anger that already exists there. One odd incident of killing by Indian Army and a chain reaction could follow unfolding a catastrophic series of events.
I have also been to Johannesburg, Durban etc in South Africa, have seen Soweto and their musuems that depict their fascinating struggle for freedom. We can learn so much from history and not repeat the mistakes, maybe Kashmir’s turn has not yet come. But do we want to take that route? or address the issue. Maybe if Turkey and Greece can settle Cyprus issue, Pakistan and India settle Kashmir dispute. I think Turkey also settled their disputes with Armenia. Way to go.
Prasad…
just finally, as you draw the parallels, aparthied South Africa was also doing pretty good. Cities like Cape Town and Johannesburg, Randburg and Sandton were like another New York. Hillbrow is a part of Johannesburg which was an up market area during the aparthied days before 1994.
Much like India is making progress today, until this happened:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej-KqF5CJ es
South Africa State of Emergency 1980′s
The rest is history. And worryingly the scenes from above are pretty familiar to what is happening in Kashmir today.
Prasad my final words,
You are really playing a cat and mouse game here, you dont poke the Kashmiris hard enough, they haven;t yet reached their tipping point. Once they have had enough and finally rise, and if mistakenly you push them too hard. Then see what happens, say goodbye to prosperity and we will see scenes like, ‘state of emergency in Kashmir’ ‘Lal Chowk uprising 2025′ ‘Martyrs monument’ ‘sri Nagar massacre’. History will repeat itself, you just mark my words those who play with innocent’s blood never get away with it.
Umair
Sorry to disturb your dialogue with Prasad but on the following I would like to add, it is already happening in Pakistan.
“History will repeat itself, you just mark my words those who play with innocent’s blood never get away with it.”
Peace!
Rehmat
Thank you for the dialogue compliment, BTW I am not a fan of Bollywood nor do i watch it. Just a clarification, as with history repeating itself only time will tell. Surely there has been a lot of bloodshed orchestrated in Pakistan lately. Much of it has been stemmed and the culprits behind it are identified. You remain assured we will get at them. Now lets see how long India plays cat and mouse games in kashmir.
Umair,
I think you are missing the point I am attempting to make. This is what I said:
“While Pakistan is not the only country from where nuclear technology or material can be lifted, the fact is that internationally Pakistan seems the one most vulnerable and at more risk than others. ………………… So like it or not, that is the perception that prevails. It is up to Pakistan, if it wants to, to convince the outside world otherwise.”
So let me try once more. What you have quoted is a very serious accident that very nearly happened and could happen again too.But look at the remedial measures they enforced and the disciplinary action they took and the other safety measures which were undoubtedly recommended. People lost jobs and command, now compare that with how AQ Khan was handled. The real issue is therefore of perception. It is all about how people perceive the situation in Pakistan – like it or not – that is a fact. The ball is in Pakistan’s court to change this perception, does it want to?
@Umair
“Now lets see how long India plays cat and mouse games in kashmir.”
When even Brits could not play cat and mouse forever then how can India do it forever. Its fundamentally not India but the Nehru-Gandhi family that is playing cat and mouse. But yes since they are in power so it can be said that India is not wanting solution. On our part Indians need to kick out Congress and bring someone else, Nitish can be a good candidate (there might be more). Anyone but Congress. BJP quite contrary to apprehensions was very close to finding a solution. Atal Bihari was the one who invited Mushie to India. Whenever there has been congress rule in India, Kashmir has burned. These Congress b*stards need to be made to pay for these massacres all these years. As someone from the region you can quite easily understand the political situations, although to outsiders it may seem complex.
@Myra
Denuclearising Pakistan. What a rubbish write up this is. Even if US takes away all nukes of Pakistan then what is the guarantee that they will not acquire again. They can eat grass, thump their chests and make bombs again. Whats the big deal. What if China supplies fresh nuke fuel? Americans have gone mad.
Umair,
My comments seem to have angered you. For that, apologies.
However, you show by your response that you still haven’t understood what I’m trying to say. Your response is still Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir. I’m saying you should be willing to forget Kashmir for a few years and pursue peace with India without making Kashmir a precondition. That’s what I meant by “peace first, Kashmir afterwards”.
Your comments prove my point that Pakistanis are unable to get out of the “Kashmir first, peace afterwards” mindset.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Umair
I am sorry to say that Pakistan current civilian leaders are obsessed with India! They were never able to obtain a compromise from the Congress outfit before the partition and hence the separate state of Pakistan. Then how on earth they could come to terms with them now after having lost several military encounters against .
Kashmir is the issue and Kashmiris are responsible for their problems. Their lot is one of the finest and not used to violence. Compare the beautiful mountains of Kashmir with almost barren mountains of Afghanistan. They are not raised to take arms and defend their land. Let them approach the UNO route, a diplomatic path without the involvement of Gillani and Zardari gang. Tell me do you reckon Kashmiri leaders in Pakistan could handle this independently? Question, do you reckon that the Kashmiri leaders in Pakistan could take on this task at international level?
If I may suggest here, Pakistan Govt. should reset its policy towards India and adopt the position which most Arab States have towards Israel; No diplomatic relations!
Pakistan needs to sort out its domestic divisions in a peaceful and intelligent manner. There is a lot of work ahead and this be the priority and not Kashmir!
Rex minor
Ps
If Pakistan were to follow the advice of
the Indians on this blog and become even a demilitarised State, the India Govt. would demand varifications by the UNO inspectors.
Pakistan has every right to pursue nukes and keep them. I don’t think Indians have problems with that. India went nuclear for two reasons – to contain Chinese threat and to demonstrate to the world that we might be poor, but we have tremendous potential to excel in all scientific fields. That was the drive during the Nehru/Indira days.
After going nuclear, India has not pursued a strategy of taking on China through proxy wars. There is no Jihad in Tibet, sponsored by Indian military against the backdrop of nuclear security. India knows that China will not attack India anymore.
Pakistan should have done what India has done – once the nuke technology was gained, it should have been rest assured that no one will dare touch Pakistan. Instead, it began to use the nukes as a back cover to launch a thousand year war, avenging Bangladesh, Khalistan, Taliban, controlling Central Asia etc. Kashmir Jihad happened immediately after the Soviet defeat. Pakistani army knew that India will not dare attack Pakistan ever. After that it has generated proxy elements which are trained at the commando level and is launching them into India on various grounds, Mumbai attacks being the last one. Then there are excuses thrown in for the actions – they are non state actors, Pakistan itself is a victim, Kashmir and so on.
On top of that AQ Khan factory began to sell nuke technology to anybody and everybody who was willing to pay up.
Pakistan’s nukes are being looked at with the same perception as that of a dangerously armed criminal. The criminal cannot feel thrilled that he is being respected. People around are being cautious. This is not the kind of respect Pakistan needs. Everyone would like to see the weapons off the hands of the criminal first. I don’t think Pakistanis are seeing this viewpoint. Every criminal says his life is in danger and wants to shoot anyone who moves towards him. Pakistani army has become a criminal organization. Pakistan first has to work towards changing that image with sincerity. Otherwise, the world will keep denuclearizing Pakistan in its agenda.
Umair,
You’re getting emotional & defensive again. Let’s just leave this juvenile “I dare you” rhetoric for the kids. Neither do I have the power or authority to take away Pakistan’s nukes & nor do you have any to stop that from happening. Keep in mind that at the end of the day we’re just two ordinary citizens of our respective countries, expressing our views on an internet forum & not here to fight or defend anyone.
FYI, I’m not a diplomat in the current administration, to feel frustrated about Pakistan but I’m sure there are many diplomats, here & around the world who are very frustrated with Pakistan because after all, as Madeline Albright said a couple of years ago “Pakistan is an international migraine”.
@Umair
“Thank you for the dialogue compliment, BTW I am not a fan of Bollywood nor do i watch it.”
***you are welcome, but I have no idea how Bollywood came into discussion. Do you watch Lollywood, BTW?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
@No diplomatic relation of Pakistan with India
***Does not much solve the problem if non-state actors (non-Kashmir-based) are killing Indians.
India-Pakistan need to build a healthy relationship since that is the normal thing to do.
Pakistanis do not appreciate the fact, mentioned by Rex, that Kashmiris are NOT violent people. Pakistanis just do not get it and think they share religion with majority Kashmiris so they must be able to shoot like LeT, who are Pakistani Punjabis. Umair perhaps has no idea how many UNWILLING Kashmiri youths from Azad Kashmir are pushed across the border.
There are 2 options for Pakistan: Give gun to Kashmiri youth and anyone who kills for K-solution (violence) OR solve Kashmir by talking (political solution). We know the answer of Indian govt/Army to the 1st option. Why not try 2nd option now. If Pakistan wants K-issue solved for real, why not Pakistan govt/Army shame Indian govt into talks. I do not think India can run away from talks. It is just that they have not been tried. Reason is FALSE EGO, nothing else.
Peace before, Kashmir solution later does not mean Kashmiris should sit in their homes and not protest. Why not Pakistan give REAL moral support to Kashmiris and aid in political solution? Even at individual level, I would not negotiate with my neighbor with gun in his hand, especially when he has attacked me few times in the past and got his as$ kicked each time. I see no urgency or position of weakness that would push me for negotiations.
Pakistan also cannot just simply hope for future to turn tide in its favor by comparing India/Kashmir to Isreael/Palestine, South Africa apartheid. There is a huge difference in 3 party situation where both India and Pakistan have not been innocent parties.
TALKS TALKS TALKS is the solution.
+++++++++++++++
@777
I agree that denuclearization talk is rubbish. Global denuclearization should be the aim.
The article is by Sanjeev Miglani, not Myra.
@Umair
So far you have scored more points, but remember the mob on this blog is very professional and ruthless. Provocation is their weapon; they ask leading questions to trap the opposite number. Some are sicere but most are not serious.
Bon courage!
Rex Minor
Rehmat:
“TALKS TALKS TALKS is the solution.”
-No sir, Talks without results is not any solution. I think we should leave Kashmir on its on, it will sort itself out on its own at its own timeframe. By the time you will realize your a$$ is about to get kicked, it will be too late then. I told you that was the mentality of the aparthied regime in South Africa. That is what the israelis think today, in both cases liberation was the result. If Kashmiris genuinely want liberation, no one will stop them. What is astonishing is your arrogance, and it is not surprising. You can take your time, sure there is no urgency but when liberation movements gain momentum they take down with them the most arrogant and mightiest regimes within no time. And I think Rex Minor’s suggestion is very right, we must break up all diplomatic relations with India. We have nothing to do with you, you can keep Kashmir for ever and live happily. Our aspirations are very different, we have our country and its share of troubles like everyone and a future to look forward to. You go your way we go ours. Building bridges and negotiations are required where there is a will to address problems, take corrective actions and confess to injustice of the past. But if we sit down to talk Kashmir, the rant is ‘Kashmir Bharat ka atut-ang hey’ so that means that is it. No more talks.
But I can tell you the cold war will continue, we forfeit Kashmir but there will be countermeasures in Afghanistan to curtail India’s footprint. That is what used to happen during cold war between US and USSR, no direct military confrontation but war through proxies. And mind you India is also aiding Brahamdag Bugti and Baloch rebels in Baluchistan. You guys are no saints as you potray yourself to be, it is only so much you can hide behind your soft image.
Now they are on the run. The repeat of vietnam has commenced. The blame game is out. The Brits with the largest contingent in Nato are not upto the task, they spend most of the time in secured places and do not make contact with the civilians(language difficulty?).
one cannot have two Presidents in the USA. Hillary Clinton who ordered US diplomats to spy on allies and non allies including UNO. An earthquake in USA diplomatic relations. And Mr Obama who took over from George W as the chief of the military,too scared of the talibans to fly from bagram to Kabul and Karzai refusing to fly over to Bagram. Are talibans controlling the ground and the air around Kabul now?
No wonder ISI ex chief is saying they support afghan Talibans against the foreign forces. Good move to go on the side of the winner. I would do the same. I have no respect for the military which surrenders or escapes from the battle ground.
Rex Minor
Ps
Pakistan should hang on to its fire crackers, the drama in the yellow seas has not ended yet. I would not be surprised if the North Korean army walks over to its second half in night darkness.
Rex
I learnt a German MP has called to kick out the US ambassador? European leaders have been depicted in bad light. I think there is more to come, so much for freedom of speech and 1st amendment of US constitution. A professor in Canadian university calls for Julian Assange’s assassination, on the contrary people of the free world are supporting Wikileaks. I think there is so much more to come, it is said truth always wins.
@Umair
“No sir, Talks without results is not any solution”
***Avoid getting stuck with the words. I mean the same thing.
we will talk more when you are not this agitated. You decide to relax on Kashmir and propose cold war between India-Pak in Afghanistan.
@”but there will be countermeasures in Afghanistan to curtail India’s footprint. That is what used to happen during cold war between US and USSR, no direct military confrontation but war through proxies”
Posted by Umairpk
Seems like you will NEVER learn. Here you guys are, having exhausted all your resources on “challanging” & sponsoring proxy wars in India for the last 2 decades and being kept alive by the IMF & global aid. Yet, you are talking about more proxy wars in the future!
Rehmat:
“we will talk more when you are not this agitated. You decide to relax on Kashmir and propose cold war between India-Pak in Afghanistan.”
-No sir, we are already engaged in cold war in Afghanistan with Indian embassy bombed there and Pakistani Baluch rebels recieving weapons from India. This cold war will only further spread to Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc. We will talk when you will realize India is not that much strong. I told you we forfiet East Pakistan, we will give up Kashmir but will come at you from left right and center until you relaize your in a sh*t storm. That’s when you will truly know your a$$ is being getting kicked. And trust me, if we were to start exploiting India’s weaknesses you will come back into your senses pretty soon. Just remember ISI learnt ‘asymmetric warfare’ from the CIA. Operation Cyclone, Operation IA Feature, all it would take is to stoke the flames of Maoists insurgency within India. You will be holding tight to dear Kashmir, and India will be set ablaze from within. Even today a super power like USA is complaining that ISI supports Taliban in Afghanistan.
Pakistan’s ISI, a hidden, frustrating power for U.S.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69 721Z20101008
Better yet let’s sever diplomatic ties and just mind our own business. We really have nothing to do since our ways were parted back in 1947. As I said, just keep Kashmir and leave Pakistan alone. As for the future, things will happen randomly. Maybe it stays quite, maybe it get worse or turns into a full cold war. I also accept it will be not all that cake walk for Pakistan too. There will be heavy price to pay on both sides.
You stated
” I see no urgency or position of weakness that would push me for negotiations.”
-Just because you don’t see any weakness in your position does not mean you are not vulnerable. I will stop short of stating anything further.
@Umair,
Before issuing hilarious threats of “setting India ablaze”, try staving off the failure, bankruptcy & disintegration of your country. This vain & empty breast-thumping might help your battered ego but it won’t change the facts. If you keep farting in the wind, it won’t matter to anyone else because at the end of the day, it will be you, who will have to live in the stench.
All this setting India ablaze etc stem from uncontrollable jealousy. These guys have grown up feeling superior to others and when the stakes are against them, they are unable to swallow their pride. And that vents itself in the form of jingoism and breast beating. Nothing’s going to change. They have already burnt their country down. EU is beginning shake due to economic down turn. This means they are going to cut down on their dole to other countries. The US will push harder on Pakistan as it is running out of time. As it is the blow back is hurting them. It will hurt them even harder. All this proxy war talk is only talk. They have no time to engage with India right now. They got severely hurt by the floods. And the repercussions of it have not taken effect yet. So let them thump their chests. We just have to make sure another Mumbai attack is thwarted. These guys never learn and they have paid a heavy price for that attitude. They still have not learned anything. So they will keep making mistakes and burn themselves out.
@Umair
The Imperial US ambassador by the name of Murphy is a poor sod, getting a bad PR in most German TV talk shows. It is customary for the supervisor of the individual section in the embassy to send reports under the name of the US Ambassador direct to the state dept. His response to the journalist was very poor.
The problem is much deeper and very complex. After the fall of the USSR and its communist empire, most western Nations including USA were left with the massive beaurocrats and the infra-structer previously utilised for the cold war. While most european countries have adjusted to the new reality, it would seem that the USA administrations transfered the entire set up for the war on terror. In my view the new administration with two presidents, both lawyers in profession have raised the stakes. Hillary Clinton instructions to spy on allys and non allys is definitely a cold war process. She is so naive not to realise even now what she has started. Condi Rice at least spared closed allies. The Italian foreign response was prompt, “9/11 for diplomacy”. The backlash is yet to come.
As for wikileak, it would seem that there is a massive network and very powerful sponsors who are running the project have taken on the BIG BROTHER domain, keeping watch on USA operations. Who could have thought even in his wildest dreams that this could happen to the God Father. Julian who choose to be the frontman for wikileak has gone into hiding in the UK. He fears for his life now. The UK police knows his whereabouts but are so far refusing to extradite him to Sweden, his home country. Julian said last night that all the documents are in the hands of the newspapers, (some owned by the Russians tycoons) and would be automaticaly released as soon as they have been fully edited.
Like the lady(hillary) said there are always consequences for the actions countries take.
Rex Minor
PS Incidently, what is happening between India and Pakistan has never been cold war, but simple and straight forward battles, war and covert actions in the most conceiterd indopak style. No offence is intended to any of the parties. Transparency is the call of the day. india is definitely in the premier league and has the upper hand, says Mr prasad.
@Umair
You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries. Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture. India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.
Pakistan leaders need wisdom, pro-life faith, and patience and long life of Prophets to confront the future.
For stability and security all of the countries need friendy relations with one another.
@Umair
You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries. Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture. India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.
Pakistan leaders need wisdom, pro-life faith, and patience and long life of Prophets to confront the future.
For stability and security all of the countries need friendy relations with one another.
Rex Minor
PS Indian is ambitious to go for nuclear energy, something Iran is persuing and most probably Pakistan wants as well? Is it the right approach considering that energy can be sourced from the Sun which is always present in that part of the world?
@rex minor,
It is unfortunate that you paint Pakistan as a god fearing dove.
Pakistan has some of most godless people, if 1971 genocide of 3 million is any indication.
India is a country full of hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs, buddhists, jews.
It is sad that once you have no valid arguements anymore, you stoop to scraping the bottom of the barrel calling people “Godless”.
You should not believe everything you are told, God loves all his children equally, like any parent does. Do not believe the myth that only one political religion has cornered all of God’s love, that is another myth.
PS Indians need energy to sustain their population. India is not seeking build more nxkes. India is not a proliferator of weapons, nor is India blackmarket dealing with Rogue nations.
India has the high moral ground on almost every issue, so please, you should be advising Pakistan to form loving, gentle, friendly relations, not ones based on mistrust, maintaining mutual hatreds and blame.
As an Indian, I would love the day that I can goto Islamabad and watch the cricket tournament, without fear of being lynching because I am an Indian Hindu and as a Pakistans, Umair should look to the time when he can travel freely in India, without fear. In fact, he can do so, once his visa gets approved, Indians do not have bogus blasphemy laws and such, so India is already safe to travel to.
Pakistan: “You guys in Pakistan must have a lot of patience and resilience, being sorrounded by billions of people living in Godless countries.”
First they wanted a country for themselves, because their warped leaders believed that Hindus and Muslims can never co-exist as a nation. Little did they know of history prior to partition in which Hindus and Muslims co-existed for close to a thousand years. They fought wars, not against each other, but against coalitions made up of Hindus and Muslims. Aurangzeb’s Mughal army was headed by Raja Man Singh in Deccan. And the Raja fought Shivaji, a Hindu chieftain who was allied with the Bamini Sultans who in turn resisted the Mughal expansion.
Now that they got a nation for themselves, they should have worked towards making it stronger in terms of economy and welfare of citizens. Instead, like you are saying, they have moved on to the next set of paranoiac beliefs of being “surrounded” by Godless people. In fact the Hindus are supposed to have millions of Gods and not just one. To Pakistan’s northwest lies Afghanistan which is responsible for the three hundred odd million Muslims in South Asia today. To the West of Pakistan lies Iran which has been an Islamic culture even much earlier than the region that became Pakistan.
Your analysis tells me that you are blind with ignorance and have no idea what you are talking about. And you asking your other warped brother to look up to the Chinese who have no faith in God and matters related to God. They recently crushed an Islamic uprising in their Uighur province. May be it does not matter to you, because China is your enemy’s enemy. They definitely are not your friends. You are only fooling yourself into assuming that they are your all weather friends. They want to dump North Korea. Pakistan may not be far off in that list if they find your brothers trying to help the Uighur Muslims.
“Granted that chinese have been always friendly and supportive, but nevertheless speaking a complete different language and a very different culture.”
See above. Chinese only take. They never give. Soon your brothers will be breast feeding them dry. Wait and watch.
“India ofcourse is the difficult nut to crack, with their love hate policy and waiting for the next opportunity to checkmate.”
We want nothing from you guys. You can keep your wonderful Islamic country to yourselves and burn it down to your hearts’ content. We are looking at you the way people look at criminals in a neighborhood. We are just being cautious. That’s all.
Do not try to hide behind your German veil. You are a hardcore Pakistani and your emotional rants more than substantiate it. You will learn your ultimate lessons.
@Umair
“You will be holding tight to dear Kashmir, and India will be set ablaze from within”
***your ISI has done its best. Go ask them if you have no idea about it.
Your cousins are doing their best to blow India apart. Read it in caps and bold. I do not have much appetite for Bullcrap that suggest ISI has been kind to India. You guys supported Punjab terrorism and corrupting Kashmiri youths. I agree with you ISI is trained by CIA and would not blink an eye anyone in forcing its decisions on unwilling Kashmiris. You are a single dimensional person with vengeance of 1971 and portraying it as love for Kashmiris. Go give it where it works.
You guys have got a bloody cheek to set India ablaze and act innocent bystander and then cry over Indian “moral’ support to Baluch.
@India supporting Baluch
***I sympathize with them as much as I do with Kashmiris. you know that CIA-trained ISI machinery is like cannibals who will eat Baluch up and they do. Why is that Pakistan has not been able to provide any evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan? See the comparison that LeT (syn JuD) chief is picnicking with your establishment even after proofs by India and confession by your country that LeT was involved.
India has supported Baluch in the past, not now-not when the USA is there. Indians can spread you thin once they decide to give you your own medicine.
“This cold war will only further spread to Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc.”
***great job Umair! It already has, if you do not know.
You do not fry fritters with water, you need oil. Where is the money going to come from? Remember ISI involvement in counterfeit currency in India in order to support terrorism by LeT. This is Bangladesh intelligence agency information too. Other ways are siphoning the money, you are given as help for civil purposes, to set India ablaze (reference: confession by Musharraf, a nut who calls Pakistan a happening place). you need to realize that Pakistan is not saudi Arabia to have petro dollars.
“We will talk when you will realize India is not that much strong.”
***There are facts which you need to know. China is stronger than India and India is stronger than Pakistan. Trouble starts when you forget it. That does not prevent solutions.
“I told you we forfiet East Pakistan, we will give up Kashmir but will come at you from left right and center until you relaize your in a sh*t storm. That’s when you will truly know your a$$ is being getting kicked.”
***what you are saying is along the line that Kashmir is not real problem for you, it is 1971 that is hurting you. I can understand that. But bad news for you is that India is saying talks and is hopeful. Fun will start when India start blowing one of your friends and blame it on some non-state actor. Then you’ll know how it works.
It is so sad that only time I see you this excited is when you talk destruction. Mostly rest of the time your opinions are muffled.
so my suggestion: violence has given nothing. time to change the tactics and TALKS TALKS TALKS–result-oriented.
“Better yet let’s sever diplomatic ties and just mind our own business. We really have nothing to do since our ways were parted back in 1947. As I said, just keep Kashmir and leave Pakistan alone”
***that can be one way. go ahead and ask your govt/army to do that. India also wants Pakistani terrorists within their country and leave India alone. I think we agree on that.
PEACE!
Let us not behave like American establishment which does not learn from the history.
Rehmat:
I think we must chill and relax, i think the past is very bitter with so much bad blood between our two countries. As for Mumbai attacks remember there was internal support from India as well. So there are no quick fix no immediate solution, unfortunately this is the reality. Pakistan and India are just not normal neighbours.
Thank you and very nice to get to know your real views, I think we should always be open in our discussion.
KPSingh:
” We are looking at you the way people look at criminals in a neighborhood.”
-KPSingh, give it a rest too much hatred is not good for you. You guys are not saints either, many crimes have been committed by your country as well.
G-W:
“As an Indian, I would love the day that I can goto Islamabad and watch the cricket tournament, without fear of being lynching because I am an Indian Hindu and as a Pakistans, Umair should look to the time when he can travel freely in India, without fear.”
-I look forward to the day when Pakistan makes progress without having to care about an ‘enemy’ and we have normal relations. We must all look forward to the future and let go with past and move on, I agree on that.
Rex Minor:
Sit back, relax and watch one by one you will uncover the behind the scene going on in the US diplomatic community. The hypocricy and double standards will be all too clear, as I said there is much more to come.
Pakistan army reacts to WikiLeaks cables with democracy pledge
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec /04/pakistan-army-supports-government-w ikileaks
Umairpk: “KPSingh, give it a rest too much hatred is not good for you. You guys are not saints either, many crimes have been committed by your country as well.”
After Mumbai attacks, that is the perception, like it or not. Pakistan’s authorities were quite embarrassed that all the plans, training, reconnaissance and execution were done in Pakistan. They did not want to admit it. They tried to window wash it. Somehow, truth simply could not be hidden. Now we do not trust Pakistan. Period. And all the double dealing, back stabbing, duplicitous reputation that Pakistanis have gained around the world, have made us even more suspicious. Everything I have listed above are done by criminals.
I agree that we are no angels. But we pale in comparison. BTW, we have built a nation that has demonstrated progress in many areas, not just nukes.
If your country wants others to take it seriously, there is a lot of detox needed. This is something your nukes and military machines will not bring about. Right now no one really wants to deal with Pakistan. Some have been forced to and they feel unfortunate. And that is not a respectable state to be in.
Umairpk: “Pakistan army reacts to WikiLeaks cables with democracy pledge”
This is called buying time. No one outside of Pakistan trusts your army. A wolf can never become a sheep. When it wears a sheep skin, we all know it is up to something.
@Umair
It is not only funny but serious. Did kyani or his spokesman have to put his foot in the mouth by denying what has been reported by wikeliek. Since when does the army in a democratic country go public and declares its allegance/support for the civilian Govt.
Gen. Patreous has done that going public to justify war and basically politicised the institution, a unique development in the western democratic country. And now Gen kyani has done it. Now, who in Pakistan is going to repremand publicly the statements of the military brass? Where is the defence minister? Robert Gates sent McChrytal to retirement.
Rex Minor
@GW
I feel that you are a sincere guy. But please do not manipulate my words, which are deliberately kept very simple and straight to the point. You are the only one who did not preach on the status quo but even came up with a proposal for a thaw in cold relations. Most of your fellow Indians have been simply repeating their fixed views and putting on demands.
Umair is the only prticipant who is in a position to tell us how the Pakistanis feel. I think that we should encourage him and not get him bogged down with accusations and speculations.
.I have not painted Pakistan as a God fearing dove! How can I, when most of the violence in that country is being carried out by themselves.
. I am a secular and try not to mix religion with politics. I am sorry if I have given this perception. I am not a Pope to speak on behalf of God. I do fear the one God and those who believe in a trinity or more Gods like the ancient greeks, then i regard these people Godless. It does not mean that I disrespect atheists, communists or people of other faiths, quite the contrary, I respect them on the basis of their behaviour and not their belief.
. Pakistan is a muslim country and yet have not managed to form a cohesive society. Pakistan leaders have not tried to understand the desires of different communities to form a consensus, separating religion from the State.
I fully agree with the rest of your comments. It is also my opinion that had Pakistan and India no diplomatic contact, there would not have been so many conflicts between them.
Rex Minor
PS My refernce to India going nuclear was for nuclear reactors for elecricity needs and not for weapons.
The wikileaks, have reaffirmed that the Pakistani army was responsible for the humiliation faced by Pakistan, in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks. Zardari tried very hard to reconcile with India, right after the attacks. He wanted to immediately acknowledge that Pakistanis were involved in the attacks & send ISI chief Pasha to India, as a gesture of goodwill. But Kayani reigned him back, canceled Pasha’s visit & ordered the Pakistani leadership to go in a denial mode & demand proof of Pakistani involvement.
It’s quite clear that as long as the nucleus of power in Pakistan, lies with it’s army, there can NEVER be peace between India & Pakistan.
@Umair
“As for Mumbai attacks remember there was internal support from India as well.”
***That does not stop Pakistan from taking action where they can.
“I think we must chill and relax, i think the past is very bitter with so much bad blood between our two countries.”
***Agreed. Violence is an easy thing, solves nothing, worse adds to the problem. The least we can do is control our own thoughts.
“Thank you and very nice to get to know your real views, I think we should always be open in our discussion.”
They have always been REAL.
***
Umair and others
Here is my suggestion. This suggestion of breaking diplomatic relations is not practical.
The suggestion of increased people to people contact, increased trade between 2 countries is nothing new.
There is a strong need for media helping to bring the 2 countries together.
There is no doubt that there is hatred between 2 countries. What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.
rehmat: “What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.”
It will be called a biased Indian view of history. Pakistan will never accept the truth about Bengali genocide. India will never accept the truth about Kashmir. The reason for partition will become yet another fodder for endless arguments.
I don’t think Indian history books have been that much distorted about the events after 1947.
An alternate suggestion will be to encourage Pakistanis to read works by neutral sources to enhance their perspective of historic realities. Again this prompt should never come from any Indian. Pakistanis will listen to the British or the Americans in this regard.
How does one insert the truth about AQ Khan or Tikka Khan in Pakistani text books? For them they are heroes. Saying anything diplomatic will be to cover up real history with lies.
I think we should just let things settle for themselves. India and Pakistan can sign a treaty not to look at each other for the next ten years and not to meddle in each others’ affairs for the same time period. A period of dead time is needed in which people can focus on their own countries and allow things to cool down. I agree with Umair slightly in this regard.
@rehmat
“What do you think about the suggestion that both countries should modify their history books for students in schools and a generation grows up reading same history in 2 countries.”
How would that benefit the b*stards sitting in New Delhi and Islamabad? The people who have to take this decision are wretched to the core. Do you really think your solution is practically possible?
I would tend to agree with Umair’s solution. Sign LOC into border, gain peace, solve smaller issues first and hence build trust and then finally take up Kashmir.
@Rehmat
I agree with others. As well intentioned, your suggestion might be, it’s not practicable at least at this time. If relations between the two countries get better, maybe they can work on something like that over time but we seem to be quite a bit far from that point.
I would also like to know, what do those incessantly tooting the horn of “ummah”, have to say about the recent disclosure of various arab leaders urging the US to bomb Iran?
Mortal:
Muslim Ummah is more united than ever before, despite what King Abdullah urged the US on Iran. Fact remains Ahmedinejad visited Riyadh and both Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran have been improving their relationship. There has been no reaction from Tehran on wikileaks disclosure, instead they have said this is a conspiracy by US. Similarly, Sunni Pakistan has much improved relations with iran now. You name it, Syria has had visits by Kinbg Abdullah, almost all muslim nations are united. Don’t forget the political deadlock in Lebanon sometime back where Qatar had brokered talks in Doha and came up with a plan to break the deadlock and bring stability to Lebanon. The Turkish support for Gaza, its cutting down of ties to Israel. Wikileaks must not mislead you regarding Muslim unity.
Also, King Abdullah called for inter-faith dialogue at UN to create more understanidng among different faiths Islam, Judaism christianity etc.
Rex:
On Pakistan Army response on wikileaks, it is no secret that Army in Pakistan has influence on national matters. The civilian govt. is too weak, inefficient and corrupt it cannot function without Army support. Last year when the politicians were fighting and there was political instability, Gen. Kayani told them that the country faces a serious situation and if any politician does not behave and mend their ways specially if the president does not come back to his senses he will kick him out. Sorry, but this is Pakistan democracy, if the president or prime minister is a fool, the Army can kick his a$$ big time.
Basically Gen. Kayani was under termendous pressure from his corps commanders, in frequent GHQ meetings all senior officers were very concerned that Zardari is corrupt, inefiicient and does not realize the problems faced by the country. In the end good sense prevailed, Zardari relaized he will have to behave himself otherwise he would be forced to resign and sent to an exile in Dubai.
But gradually I support civilian govt. taking ownership, Army finally doing its job of defending the country and non-interference in politics. But as long as we have corrupt politicians we need the Army to keep them in check. This time the Army had to come out with support of civil govt. in light of wikileaks statements.
Rex
BTW the funny thing is US Embassy cables write off PM Gordon Brown as ‘abysmal’ and slam the failure of British Troops in southern afghanistan.
The Ministry of Defence UK had to also come out with their own clarification statement. The Brits are furious.
Moreover the German foreign minister’s chief of staff was fired over wikileaks, he was acting as a mole for US embassy officials. So the fallout is being felt not just in Pakistan but elsewhere too. You may see a lot of statements, apologies, clarifications etc. here is the German story:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/03/ german-government-official-fired-over-wi kileaks-revelations/
Umair and all:
Umair, I am not leaving you.
What do you think about the suggestion about a common history between India and Pak? Do not be defensive.
Indian posters here do not think it is practical that India/Pak can have a common history. Well Kashmir solution does not seem to be practical either. 60plus years and it is worse now.
One cannot expect a common man to read history from other sources. Most of people read text books in school in their lives.
Common man in India and Pakistan has grown up reading different history. Not to offend Pakistanis but Pakistan is worse in this. Correct me if I am wrong, Indians have read what is mostly taught in Pakistan books (guessing it is mainly Mughal history). Reading Budhism, Hinduism, Sikhism is as important as Islam. Suggestion here is not to study in depth but basic tenets of religions. That does not amount to blasphemy as some narrow-minded people might think.
“How does one insert the truth about AQ Khan or Tikka Khan in Pakistani text books? For them they are heroes. Saying anything diplomatic will be to cover up real history with lies.”
***agreed there will be such cases in India and Pak. How about a common history pre-1947? That will avoid partition, Kashmir, Bangladesh. Post-1947 India and Pak are different countries.
I know it is bit of digression.
Talking about Ummah, India , with 3rd largest Muslim population in the world, is blocked from becoming a member of the Organization of Islamic countries (OIC), not even observer status at Pakistan’s behest. So much for Ummah.
Rehmat,
I had previously deliberately overlooked the suggestion made by you, regarding a common history, people to people contacts. In my view this will be a giant step forward, if people on both sides can reach out and create understand each other it will create goodwill and understanding. A common pre-1947 history would be a good idea. Frankly, I have read in our text books about how founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah was initially part of Indian national congress but got fet up with ‘cunning’ hindu leaders and later joined Muslim League. Or famously ‘hindustan ne rat ki tariki mein hamla kar dia’ (India attacked Pakistan during the darkness of night on 6 sept 1965). I think if there is a task force of academics who can work on this and revise the history/text books we will do a great favor by creating harmony in future generations. People to people contact can go a long way in improving ties and building bridges.
On the issue of OIC, Rehmat first of all don’t you think the OIC needs to become more robust and vocal and take pro-active initiatives. Pakistan may have been against India’s participation in OIC due to the ongoing Kashmir dispute. But as we inch closer to solution to Kashmir, there is no harm if India joins OIC. But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected. So while India might not be part of OIC, but I can tell you many Islamic movements in India, many Indian Ulema and religious scholars are a force already. They are an important asset and part of Muslim Ummah, role model for many. Being part of OIC India can give a platform to its Muslim minority to get their voice heard. But it would have to be figured out what is the stance of Indian govt. on some issues. For example India has good diplomatic relations with Israel, will India strongly condemn Israel if it attacks Palestinian Muslims? That remains to be seen.
I generally avoid posting here because I witness it generally brings out the worst in us, as all who post here are very patriotic, regardless of nationality.
When we talk about the India-Pakistan issue, we must understand that the trust deficit is 60 years deep, and a lot would need to be done to rectify it, regardless of who’s more to blame. Sadly, we don’t see that happening, and current events show a possible escalation towards a full scale battle which would be far more complicated and disastrous than all previous wars combined. I dread that day, but the point is that people are so controlled by state opinions that the masses would support their respective forces with regard to such actions.
We nuclear armed neighbors could have been support pillars for each other, but the circumstances in which we were separated had initiated a trust deficit. Subsequently, our leaders in their nationalistic egos’ further divided us. I blame both nations for this. Today, if i don’t respect the Indian nation for their achievements my opinion would be biased and worthless, and i assure you that it is not so. In the sub-continent, we must appreciate and look up to India as its overall model has been very successful.
We Pakistani’s however have had a different fate. If you all read history, Pakistan was the growth leader in this region up to the nineties. In the fake comfort of the same, we lost sight of our goals and the termites which had started feasting on the nation then have deformed the structure such that it stands as it is today.If i go into the discussion at this point i will stray from the topic of the article itself.
Getting to the point, all of Pakistan’s short-comings aside, what we do have is a very stable nuclear program which is not only secure, but the missile technology it is combined with is FACTUALLY (you can confirm this independently) more advanced than its much larger neighbor. India would lead where conventional warfare is concerned, but we both are in equal parity on the nuclear level. Pakistan’s civilians are also heavily armed, as research does show that on an avg. there are three assault rifles per capita in Pakistan. That is a huge number if you would consider. Pakistani’s are also very emotional, which could cause impulsiveness in attack and combined with a first strike doctrine, it doesn’t give a pretty picture. For any nation of the world, battling Pakistan would be an act of guts if it happens so.
That being said, do we want nuclear warfare? I don’t think either side does. If you want to make a difference, it starts at home. There is no war between the people of India and Pakistan, just the states. Animosity does exist, but only where our nations come into discussion. If all of you who post here are smart enough, research deeper on the covert battle engagement on both sides. If you could do that you would see the hypocrisy of your states, and while Pakistanis are openly exposed to it, it is hard for the other side to accept it. Look deeper, and question. The results of a nuclear war would be disastrous for both, and the idea of victory would be an illusion where bilateral strikes are concerned. The stage of the world is changing once again, and history is to be made. We must try not to accept information fed to us without questioning it regardless of the source. Today legitimacy of information is accorded blindly to what is disseminated from media and state institutions, and with the wikileaks expose in sight, it shows us that they are most positioned to toy with our opinions and they do so. Wake up, this is not a one sided war. Blame goes to both ends. Pakistan’s actions may be touted as instigatory but it is just because it would be portrayed so as has been the agenda for most nations and authorities since its creation. India’s would not be so, as the diplomatic ties would prevent such an action
Wildbandit,
Congratulations and thank you for a very, very informative and constructive critique of our negative pattern. It is hard to reconcile to the truth, but we are, sometimes at our worst and sometimes, even willingly so, victims of manipulative techniques and thought processes. I could not possibly agree more with what you say, specially the following:
“We must try not to accept information fed to us without questioning it regardless of the source. Today legitimacy of information is accorded blindly to what is disseminated from media and state institutions, and with the wikileaks expose in sight, it shows us that they are most positioned to toy with our opinions and they do so.”
Often after interacting or following some of the discussion here I go away disappointed and disheartened. At times the future looks almost bleak and hopeless and then I realise that this too is manipulation here. At times I am almost convinced that some topics here are deliberate attempts to provoke and create discord rather than open up a healthy debate.
What I find depressing about debate here is that, all too often, it is extremely negative. Optimism and constructive thought are at a premium. Perhaps, as you suggest, each one of us needs to make a fresh start and look within and like the wise man said ‘be the change we want to see’.
@wildbandit
well said, I call it motherhood, every one recognises the facts. But what is the solution???
Rex Minor
PS GW suggested one to take Kashmir out of the equation but there was no consensus among those who are speaking on behalf of India. Remember these people have lived as slaves under the Brits for more than two centuries and have since independence not carried out the reform of their institutions to make them independent. Their comments reflect a common approach of the Brits,namely “MUDDLE THROUGH”!
@Umairpk
Time and again the military in Pakistan has considered themselves superior to those who were the “civilian Govt” and took over the helms of the Govt. without thinking through this act of treason. This has not brought significant improvements but did damage the fabric of both civilian as well as military institutions. The military when employed in the civilian cadre over a long period became more corrupt than their civilian predecessors.
Most civil Govts in a democracy are imperfect and corrupt, and therefore are elected for a limited period. No one makes too much fuss about the corruption side. Pakistan military performance in the past has also been very poor(so much for defending the country) and their intrusion into Swat and Waziristan was also not a great feat to charge against civilians.
Zardari/Gillani are what they are, people have to put up with them or force them out with peaceful demonstrations, the ingradients of the democracy. It is not the function of the corps commanders to assume the head teacher role and intervene when the croud become frustrated.
Lady clinton ordering cold war tactics on allies and foes simply proves that the super power is nit able to deflect the fall of their imperialist empire.
The revelitions about the German politicians did not surprise the people in the country since these were known to them.
Rex minor
@wildbandit: good post
@”still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens”
I don’t know where you got that from but I have a lot of muslim friends & aquaintainces in Mumbai, who happen to own some of the best real estate in the city. I agree that generally there has been an element of discrimination against muslims but that has been changing & India is rapidly evolving into a merit-based nation. Today, if a well educated & qualified muslim seeks a job in Tata or Reliance, I don’t think he or she is discriminated against, based on religion.
Going back to the topic of distorted history, I got my primary & secondary education in India and I don’t remember coming across any derogatory information about Pakistan or muslims. Most mughal rulers, except Aurangzeb, were depicted in positive light (especially Akbar) & the partition of the country was largely blamed on Jinnah. There may be some distortions on Kashmir but I’m not very sure.
Umairpk: “But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected”
Can you provide a source for this claim? Have you heard of Bollywood? It is dominated by Muslims – actors, producers, directors, composers, lyricists, screen play writers, make up artists, choreographers, you name it. This has been the case since movies began to get produced in Mumbai. They all live in expensive homes and have embellished India’s cultural scenario. I am sure you have been taught that they are living as second class citizens in Mumbai’s slums. Mumbai has a huge Muslim population and they all have been living in Mumbai for generations in their own homes. Your beloved country’s founder Jinnah was a resident of Mumbai. His house, called “Mumbai House” is now Pakistani consulate.
I wonder how mis-information has created paranoia about India. I am sure in Pakistan the general perspective about India is that Muslims are treated like slaves and those who made it to Pakistan are fortunate. Any politically driven riot is projected monumentally to substantiate this mis-information. Riots happen for various reasons and they are not directed at Muslims alone. Welcome to India. My community was massacred in 1984 when “a giant tree fell.” Ethnic groups get targeted as well. Many times the motive is to drive one group out of a place to garner their businesses.
In your land of milk and honey itself there are riots and massacres against different communities – Ahmadis, Sikhs, Shias, Sufis, Pathans, Sindhis and so on. We read about them in newspapers all the time. India is no different. But somehow Pakistani leaders have consistently tried to project a wrong image about India – Hindus are destroying mosques, they are killing Muslims, Muslims are denied entrance to college and so on. India has one of the best privileges for Muslims – their own civil code, government subsidy for Haj pilgrimage, public holidays for Muslim holy days etc. I am sure none of you were ever told about any of that.
You need to ask us if something told to you is true. That is where more awareness and openness can be created. You have to come with questions about the perceptions on India. We can clarify from our stand point. Another misinformation I saw in your posting is about India attacking Pakistan in the middle of the night in 1965. Operation Gibraltor is quite famous. India had been beaten to pulp by the Chinese in 1962. It lost its first Prime Minister. The new one, Shastri appeared meek and weak. Ayub Khan’s advisers pushed him to take up Operation Gibraltor. You know these things as a staunch military supporter. Yet how many go by the misinformation in Pakistan?
Lies told a thousand times begin to resemble the truth. The only thing that is being sustained in Pakistan is a misperception towards India so that Pakistanis will not question. It is extremely unfortunate. In India, due to the openness, we get to question things. We do not take anyone’s propaganda. We do not rely on Indian sources alone. I think educated Pakistanis like you should do the same. Only then anyone can talk about opening up towards each other. Misinformation can lead to suspicion and lack of trust.
Common history of India prior to 1947 might make Pakistanis feel cheated. This is because the denizens of the Indian sub-continent had learned to live in peace during the Mughal rule and the British tried hard to keep them divided in order to rule over them. Pakistan is a creation of that very method. I have mentioned about this before. We all could have lived in peace. Our people have been given a raw deal by the British from living in peace. They manipulated selfish leaders to drive a wedge between different groups and left land mines in the sub-continent that are still ticking. That is the truth you will learn.
Wildbandit,
Great post. I agree with your views. Like Dara mentions here, I see a deliberate attempt to keep us divided. If you look at British news and authors, they still carry the torch of old colonial divisive tactics. It has its subtle expression in forums like these as well. Our respective egos are triggered and we fight a key board war on these forums, dancing to their tunes. Ignoring them will be a great thing, but there is always the fear of misinformation and lies becoming truths over time. Most of us are here to prevent it from happening.
I have become convinced that Pakistan is a land mine created by the colonial British empire to keep South Asia backward and dependent on the Western powers. India has managed to wriggle out of this grip somehow. All that is left now is this relentless campaign through the media in UK and Western Europe that constantly picks on issues in India and blows it out of proportion. Much to their disappointment, India is progressing more and becoming more united.
If Pakistanis can realize that they have been manipulated by the powers in the West, they can definitely turn to us and we can dispel all the myths together. Everything does not have to be looked at from a nuclear confrontation stand point. The West wants that to happen because it will gain them ascendency again. We have to learn from our past mistakes. Many military generals in your country are agents for the Western powers. They are the ones who have brought Pakistan to where it is today.
Wildbandit said:
> research deeper on the covert battle engagement on both sides. If you could do that you would see the hypocrisy of your states, and while Pakistanis are openly exposed to it, it is hard for the other side to accept it.
LOL – I’m sure Indians are more than familiar with the hypocrisy of their leaders and the government’s position on anything! You would have noticed that Indian posters here have never claimed that the Indian government has been an angel in Kashmir. We know our government has screwed things up big time.
A situation of hope, then?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
I feel that there is a strong mis-perception amongst Pakistanis that India is a symbol of hinduism & that the “cunning” hindus control everything in India while subjugating the minorities. Although Hindus are the majority in India, this is far from the truth. Just as many pakistanis often say that Indians have a hard time accepting Pakistan as a nation, I think most Pakistanis have a hard time accepting India as a secular nation. For whatever it’s worth, this Reuters forum is a good example of India’s secularism.
@Umair
Thanks for your detailed post. I appreciate that especially the positive way you presented.
“Frankly, I have read in our text books about how founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah was initially part of Indian national congress but got fet up with ‘cunning’ hindu leaders and later joined Muslim League. Or famously ‘hindustan ne rat ki tariki mein hamla kar dia’ (India attacked Pakistan during the darkness of night on 6 sept 1965). I think if there is a task force of academics who can work on this and revise the history/text books we will do a great favor by creating harmony in future generations. People to people contact can go a long way in improving ties and building bridges.”
***I have forgotten what I learned in history text books in school in India. Nothing stands out as negative as ‘cunning’ hindu leaders. Regarding 1965 war, I recall extensive description of Havaldar Abdul Hamid who was decorated with PVC posthumously. I can understand that Pakistan will not like to teach to kids that Pakistan attacked India and lost the war or the war ended in stalemate. Indian history text books clearly mention that in 1962 India lost to China. In old Indian history actually wars have been described as lost in a positive way “they fought bravely but in the end lost the battle”. What I see is that there is scope to tone down history in Pakistan at its own level. Scholars know better and along with war against terror, Pakistan needs to SLOWLY undo the distortion which began after 1971 division of Pakistan. Again, I am not trying to lecture you here.
“On the issue of OIC, Rehmat first of all don’t you think the OIC needs to become more robust and vocal and take pro-active initiatives.”
***OIC has done anything significant so far. With Turkish guy as Sec-Gen, OIC should first look inside and work on improving 57 member nations in terms of areas where it matters such as issues like gender discrimination, education/research. There is a lot that can be done without worrying about Ummah vs the rest of the world. rather than the West telling Muslim nations to watch human rights, OIC can work on those issues. It is empty talk platform so far.
“Pakistan may have been against India’s participation in OIC due to the ongoing Kashmir dispute. But as we inch closer to solution to Kashmir, there is no harm if India joins OIC.”
***See this is the problem. There is another way to look at it. When OIC issues a statement on Kashmir, India says shut up like it says to any 3rd party. It is much easier to support Kashmir when India is part of OIC. India cannot run away as part of OIC.
“Being part of OIC India can give a platform to its Muslim minority to get their voice heard. But it would have to be figured out what is the stance of Indian govt. on some issues. For example India has good diplomatic relations with Israel, will India strongly condemn Israel if it attacks Palestinian Muslims? That remains to be seen.”
***That’s right. It is strange that a country with such a large Muslim population is blocked to be a member or even observer in OIC. OIC giving Kashmir as reason for non-entry of India as a member is not helping Kashmir, as I said earlier.
There are atleast 3 OIC nations– Turkey, Jordan and Egypt– with diplomatic relation with Israel. Turkey has full diplomatic relations with Isreal and is the 1st Muslim nation to have relation with Israel since 50s. India started diplomatic relation with Isreal in 90s. compare with India as the 1st non-Arab country to recognize the PLO as a representative of the palestinian people. I also see that India is vocal in its support to palestine and even this year it condemned Isreal’s attack calling it disproportionate and unwarranted. I do not see a problem with Indian stand.
“But keep in mind one thing, still Indian Muslims can’t buy property in Mumbai for example or are treated as second class citizens or in worse cases as agents/spies of Pakistan. All this have to be corrected.”
***That is not true. Do not make it sound as if there is no Muslim living in Mumbai or not allowed. There were incidents when even big names from Bollywood faced the problem you mentioned. Mumbai is a complicated case. There you will see that North Indians (religion does not matter) are also discriminated but that is by Shiv Sena. Then you will have the cases I described.
Muslims in Mumbai perhaps face the same or much less discrimination than Pushtoons in Karachi due to Taliban label (people play safe). Regarding Muslims as 2nd class citizens, Gujarat was the worst case. I would not present the case as simply as 2nd class citizens. generalizations are misleading. There is disparity between Muslims and others (reference Sachar Committee report) but the committee did not give any reason. The reasons are important than playing the facts and correlating with a most favorite factor. We will discuss in detail some other time but religion is a mere correlation not a reason.
@wildbandit
“There is no war between the people of India and Pakistan, just the states. Animosity does exist, but only where our nations come into discussion.”
***This is so true. We need to remove or minimize those factors which come in the way of reconciliation. Mostly the animosity between bloggers is based on the wrong information, which we are not ready to fix especially coming from the opposite party. Majority of people have information from text books in school and later media/govt information. Amateurish blogs have played a role—my personal opinion is that they have played a negative role overall. I have suggested pre-1947 history should be the same in 2 countries. It is hard and is the job of scholars in the area to see if it is feasible.
The separation of India and Pakistan was the end result of divide and rule or conquer, through religious hatred, by the british empire. Brits are long gone, ditto their empire but the hatred between indians and pakistanis remain. Ain’t that wonderful.
@bkhjon
“Brits are long gone, ditto their empire but the hatred between indians and pakistanis remain.”
And Brits still get to consume the best of produce of both countries and in return we get piece of paper called “Pound”. Amazingly stupid on both India and Pakistan’s part. Sometimes I think are we really free in sense that it is still the Brits and/or other colonists that consume our best produce for minuscule prices, it was like that before 1947 also, so what has changed?
India Pakistan Bangladesh combined can be a real force with some of the world’s most hard working race, two of the world’s most fertile deltas, one of the most extensive river networks, and service provider to almost whole of the world. Only we need to put out irrelevant things like religion and caste. Religion is not for ruling/corrupting people it is instead for making people happy and content (and therefore should be ‘modified’ as per changing times). If religions ‘somehow’ become a ’cause/contributor’ of dispute then we should do away with religions. But ALAS that is too much to ask from people having blind faith in metaphysics and religions and this blind faith is eventually exploited by colonists like Brits. When will we learn from history????
Let us at least have the consensus that we are all from Human race and humans have reflexes which can cause and later nourish the phobia. Do not read further if you do not agree with this premiss.
Germany to my knowledge is the only country which is sorrounded by more neighbours than any other country in the world. Two world wars emanated from its territory when extreme phobic conditions were in place, rightly or wrongly.
Pakistan in my analysis was born out of the muslim league phobia which they acquired from tireless discussions with the Indian Congress party. Jinnah’s speech to the NA refers to the conflicts among different ethnic groups.
Indian Congress party have never let go Pakistan with words and deeds and this could explain Omair’s straight comment on Pakistan existance.
Wikileak info tells us a first strike scenario, an offensive strategy and not a defensive one. This is bad real bad.
To avoid this occurring my propsal to Pakistan would be to terminate diplomatic relations with India which is unwilling to discuss the Kashmir issue with Pakistan or any other country. This would at least avoid military confrontation.
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “To avoid this occurring my propsal to Pakistan would be to terminate diplomatic relations with India which is unwilling to discuss the Kashmir issue with Pakistan or any other country. This would at least avoid military confrontation.”
Who gets to cut of diplomatic ties with India? The civilian government? The military? The LeT? Al Qaeda? The only party that wants to discuss anything is the civilian government. While it goes through its diplomatic dance, the military and the “non state actors” start some other action.
First you must tell your fellow countrymen to unite and come to one consensus on any matter first. Then they must cut off diplomatic ties with India or cut off their heads. It does not matter.
We really do not care much for Pakistan other than its constant irritation using one agenda or another. So if Pakistan can focus on itself and do something right, that will do a lot of good to the whole world.
@KPSingh
Have you never realised that you are blówing in the wind most of the time. How can one have a dialogue with an Indian? I am really at a loss to understand.
You do not follow the guidelines of the Reuters Blog you accuse me of being a Pakistani and some of yourIt is better to terminate the
@KPSingh
Have you never realised that you are blówing in the wind most of the time. How can one have a dialogue with an Indian? I am really at a loss to understand.
You do not follow the guidelines of the Reuters Blog you accuse me of being a Pakistani and some of yourIt is better to terminate the
@KPSingh
please ignore my comments. I have decided to break off diplomatic relations with you!
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “I have decided to break off diplomatic relations with you!”
Here is another non-state actor declaring his foreign policy
Rehmat: “I have suggested pre-1947 history should be the same in 2 countries. It is hard and is the job of scholars in the area to see if it is feasible.”
Though this is a wonderful idea, in practicality, it resembles the wikileaks. It will expose the truth to many Pakistanis who would question the very idea of Pakistan. This is because prior to the 1930s, Muslims and non-Muslims had settled well with each other. There was no serious holy war between Muslims and others in the sub-continent. There sure were rulers from various religious backgrounds – ranging from Ranjit Singh to Tipu Sultan to Maharaja of Gwalior. Each one had militaries made up soldiers ranging from brahmins to Afghans. Some manned the logistics and some manned the canons. There were states launching wars against other states – religion was never a factor. The Bamani Sultans of Deccan who mostly belonged to the Shia sect of Islam were Afghans. The Mysore Sultanate headed by Hyder Ali and his son Tipu Sultan in deep South was at odds with the Nizam of Hyderabad. Both were going against each other to control important river and other resources. There is plenty of Portuguese chronicles that describe the wars between the southern states, including the Vijayanagar empire about the control of these vital resources. Ranjit Singh ruled from Lahore and had a very modern army built with the help of French. It had all kinds of people in it. Mughal army was mostly made up of Rajputs and was in loggerheads with sultanates in Oudh, Bengal etc. Alliances changed periodically. Everything pretty much resembled the electoral alliance and party politics of modern India.
If one searched through this history, he will find nothing to substantiate a threat for Muslims anywhere. People had settled well with their co-existent cultures. Each community knew where the limits were and lived within those limits.
It was the British who emasculated the Muslims in the sub-continent after the Sepoy mutiny in 1857. They encouraged non-Muslims in civil service and administrative positions. Muslims were pushed into a backward position as a deliberate attempt by the colonial administration. Only when they realized that the coolies who went to England and got Western education there began to demand similar rights, did they realize that in the long run the empire would not survive. If they lost India, they lost everything. So they began the process of dividing. The idea of Pakistan was hatched in London. Jinnah became their agent. He had his own personal ambition and they simply fueled it and supported it by letting him build the wall of separation.
If Pakistanis read the history prior to 1947 for themselves, many will begin to question why all this was needed. If they get to see more of India, they would realize that things are not all that bad. People are trying to make a decent living and their priority is not religion. They will look back at all the violence, wars and destruction, nuclear confrontation etc and wonder why all these were needed and for whose benefit? They will realize that their military has been an agent of the colonial and cold war powers in order to keep the divide wider and wider. Now that the cold war power has turned against them, this would be a good time for them to think hard on what the underlying reality is.
Much like the embarrassed followers of a Godman caught in a sex scandal, many Pakistanis might find it hard to swallow the truth that they are victims of massive manipulation. Paranoia against India has been fueled and sustained by their military to keep them blind folded. Letting them read true history will expose the British, the Americans, and their own selfish leaders.
Singh you are second class citizens in India, only needed to fight wars with Pakistan, so stop talking so dreamily about your India, the Hindu establishment does not consider you equal.
As for Pakistan, we are very comfortable in our skin knowing that India can never invade or threaten Pakistans existence, those days are gone, it is India and Indians that are obsessed with Pakistan, your multiple posts here are proof.
Pakistanis have moved on beyond the petty mindedness, and you will rarely find Pakistani posters on a Indian topic, but its the reverse with Indians, you are all obssessed with Pakistan, maybe despite our 1/4th size, we stand up eye to eye with Indians on every playing field. This your obssession, but thats what we do, we are that good.
KPSingh:
“Here is another non-state actor declaring his foreign policy ”
-This statement from a ‘sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir).
Umair said:
-This statement from a ’sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir).
Even if you have a problem with the Indian state, there is no need to call KP Singh names. I can assure you he has done nothing at all in Kashmir, just as you are personally not responsible for the East Bengal genocide!
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umairpk: “This statement from a ’sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir)”
Looks like you have run out of ideas. So you are back with Kashmir and given me the honor of being a sponsor of terrorism and that too as a state representative. The topic is about pulling the teeth of Pakistan’s military (denuclearization). It is not even about sharing history prior to 1947. Shall we return to the topic? Think why the world is talking about nukes in Pakistan, Iran and North Korea and never about the nukes in China, India, Israel, UK, France, Russia and the US? There must be some genuine reason for it. The reason is this – the cultures in the three countries are volatile. They do not think much and can get close to insane levels. Look at what North Korea has done recently? Listen to the talks of the Iranian leaders. The world definitely is worried. Pakistan can always drop a nuke and blame it on a non-state wing of the ISI about which “no one knew anything.” Pakistan’s nukes is the main reason why its non state actor groups have become bolder. They know that they can act with impunity and if India retaliates, it will bring in Pakistani military into the picture. And Pakistani military has already decided that it will do nothing other than push the nuke button. We in India want to live better and work towards bringing in more prosperity. Nukes are only meant as a deterrent. Wikileaks clearly mention about concerns on Pakistan’s support of terrorist groups and its using China to thwart UN sanctions against those groups. And Pakistan has sponsored Islamic terrorism which has gone out of control of late. The danger of radicalized elements gaining control over the nukes is very high. Hence the concern about removing the nukes from Pakistan. It has nothing to do with Pakistanis being wonderful people.
What’s the similarities between indians vs pakistanis, and north koreans vs south koreans? They like hostilities and bloodshed against their own kind.
Brits must be LOL their arss off.
KPSingh
“Think why the world is talking about nukes in Pakistan, Iran and North Korea and never about the nukes in China, India, Israel, UK, France, Russia and the US? There must be some genuine reason for it”
***We know the logic behind why Pakistan being asked to disarm nuclear weapons. WE know that is ridicuolus expectations, whatever may be the reasons.
More importantly we should discuss NPT and nuclear disarmament. It is recommended by NPT that nuclear weapon states (NWS China France Russia UK USA) halt the production of nuclear weapons, and removing nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles. I know US and Russia took some steps in this direction. Why is that these responsible NWS do not abide by the policies agreed upon by them?
let me quote wikipedia
“In their (NAM) view, Article VI constitutes a formal and specific obligation on the NPT-recognized nuclear-weapon states to disarm themselves of nuclear weapons, and argue that these states have failed to meet their obligation. Some government delegations to the Conference on Disarmament have put forth proposals for a complete and universal disarmament, but no disarmament treaty has emerged from these proposals.[citation needed] Critics of the NPT-recognized nuclear-weapon states sometimes argue that what they view as the failure of the NPT-recognized nuclear weapon states to disarm themselves of nuclear weapons, especially in the post-Cold War era, has angered some non-nuclear-weapon NPT signatories of the NPT. Such failure, these critics add, provides justification for the non-nuclear-weapon signatories to quit the NPT and develop their own nuclear arsenals.”
Also from wikipedia
“These five NWS agree not to transfer “nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices” and “not in any way to assist, encourage, or induce” a non-nuclear weapon state (NNWS) to acquire nuclear weapons (Article I). NNWS parties to the NPT agree not to “receive,” “manufacture” or “acquire” nuclear weapons or to “seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons” (Article II). …..”
***Is China, a NWS, at fault in helping Pakistan acquire nuclear weapons?
Let us expand the discussion.
@”This statement from a ’sponsor of state terrorism’ (in Kashmir)” Posted by Umairpk
Being a Pakistani, you should know all about “state sponsoring of terrorism” because that’s one thing in which your state (read ARMY) has “excelled” in, be it East Pakistan, Baluchistan FATA or NWFP etc. But the biggest problem, the world has with your country is, it’s “interstate” sponsor of terrorism.
correction: “interstate” sponsoring of terrorism
rehamt: “Is China, a NWS, at fault in helping Pakistan acquire nuclear weapons?
Let us expand the discussion.”
Botth China and the US are at fault for helping Pakistan acquire the nukes. I always quote this wonderful book titled, “Nuclear Deception” by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark. If you can get a hold of it, I’d highly recommend it.
US is the bigger culprit of the two. China came in only much later. According to the book, the CIA and the US State department worked hand in hand to prevent any evidence of Pakistan’s clandestine nuclear program being exposed. This was because the US badly needed to fight the war against the Soviets and Pakistan’s co-operation was vital. They needed to get Congress approval for funds to Pakistan to fight this war on their behalf. Saudis has agreed to match dollar to dollar if the funding went through. Reagan had to lie to the Congress that Pakistan was not capable of making nukes, while Pakistan had perfected the centrifuge technology by 1982. To go from enriched Uranium to weapon making needed further technology and Pakistan did not have the designs and material on hand. By 1983, China stepped in to help. This, according to the book, was in exchange for stolen stinger missile technology for China. A Pakistani air force plane landed in some remote place in China and lifted off with the weapons design. The Chinese also gifted enough material to make a bomb. By 1984, Pakistan had built a dozen bombs. Reagan had to lie to Congress again that Pakistan was not capable of retrofitting the F16s with nuke delivery systems. This helped ship more F16s to Pakistan as a means to increase the offensive against the Soviets. Pakistan not only had the bombs, but also managed to retrofit the F16s for delivering them.
In 1983, Israelis met with Indira Gandhi and her advisers. There was plan to knock out Kahuta and other nuclear facilities. The KGB informed them that CIA had already tipped Pakistan about this plan and things had been moved off from the targets. Indira Gandhi shot down the plan at that point.
While Reagan was lying to Congress, the State Department completely erased off all evidence of two Pakistanis trying to ship maraging steel from the US. They were arrested due to the push by a low ranking CIA officer. But since all evidence disappeared, the men were let go and the steel had been shipped. The low ranking CIA officer was put through hell by his superiors. He was driven around so much that they could build a case that he was mentally unstable and get him fired. And his wife walked out on him.
Israel and India decided to expose the presence of the Islamic bomb. If it was done, then Reagan would have egg on his face and further support to Pakistan would be curtailed. According to the book, India launched Operation Brass Tacks, which was a massive military exercise near Pakistani border. And Pakistan took the bait and moved its troops near the border. Nukes were loaded on to the F16s. This alarmed the US and it tried hard to diffuse the tension.
Indian journalist Kuldeep Nayyar was sent into Pakistan to interview AQ Khan. The wily journalists simply took Khan for a ride with his questioning and triggered deep emotions in him. An enraged Khan stood up and shouted the truth – Pakistan had the nukes and would drop it on the Indians without batting an eyelid. India got the confirmation it needed and wound its military exercise down. It was projected as a withdrawal in fear of the nukes. But AQ Khan’s open declaration cleared all doubt and became a serious embarrassment to Zia Ul Haq and his military. Again everything was hushed up.
In 1998, India decided to check the strength of Pakistani nukes and exploded its nukes. Pakistan took the bait again and exploded one more than India did. It gave the needed information on Pakistan’s nuclear capability and expertise. India has super computer capability and it has done enough optimization using numerical simulations. There was no need for it to explode the devices in 1998. But the only reason was to test Pakistan’s capability and see how true their claims were. India took the calculated risk that involved economic sanctions. Pakistan relies on Chinese super computers to conduct its optimization work.
In geo-politics there are no principles. The US has played with poison to get at its enemy. That enemy is dead and now the poison is difficult to get rid off from its veins. Pakistan is going to stand between US and a solution in Afghanistan. The US has now realized the mistake it has committed by encouraging a radical Islamic military regime in Pakistan under Zia.
Cold war was better compared to war against Islamic terrorism. In fact the decline of US dominance in this world is attributed to the end of cold war and the loss of a worthy enemy. Religion is the most dangerous weapon. One should never play with it. The US did and it is now paying the price for it.
KPSingh
Thanks for the detailed post about pre-1947 history. Without deviating anymore from the topic of the blog entry, I would say that the possibility of it happening is not much. But that should not stop us from asking what are the changes needed at a common man level.
I started with suggestion to have common history for India/Pak (Bangladesh too actually), changed to pre-1947 history and I see that you do not find that it is feasible for the reasons you gave. We do not have to bring in Pakistan when we talk about Mughal rule.
I still think :- ) we need some abridged version of “religions and dynasties of the subcontinent for dummies” kind of book. THis is not the time though. The need is so huge that any attempt will make a huge difference.
“It was the British who emasculated the Muslims in the sub-continent after the Sepoy mutiny in 1857.”
***agreed. They have done for Sikhs too promoting certain Sikhs.
OK let us get back to denuking the world before they make dirty bomb? How abt that?
We need to discuss the topic of denuking Pakistan as part of the bigger discussion extending even to why dictatorship by 5 permanent UNSC members (they are also Nuclear weapon states). A bigger change is needed.
I also would recommend the book titled, “The Islamic Bomb,” by Weissman and Krosney. According to this book, Pakistan’s nuclear ambitions started well during Ayub Khan days. Ayub was not much interested in it. But ZA Bhutto desperately tried to convince him. In 1968, the Nuclear club was formed that made the US, the USSR, UK, France and China as the only declared nuclear powers. Bhutto wanted Pakistan to join that exclusive club in the early 1960s.
Ahmed Rashid’s book, “Descent into Chaos” brings in another theory which is going to be difficult to prove. According to this book, Zia Ul Haq and his men made a long term plan for Pakistan. This was to lay the foundation of a nuclear armed Pakistan ready to avenge the secession of East Pakistan and wrest Kashmir from India. The way to do was to engage the US in close proximity and make Pakistan the only pathway by which it could be accomplished. Zia also had plans to Islamize Pakistan. According to Rashid, both the CIA and Pakistan saw a common goal while having divergent expectations out of that goal. The goal was to lay a “Bear Trap” to the USSR in Afghanistan and lure it into this hostile terrain. The CIA initially had no plans to bring down the USSR. Afghan incursion was only to be used as an irritant to the USSR and used as a bargaining chip in other proxy wars elsewhere. The US and USSR were fighting each other off in South and Central America at that time. As the Soviets plunged neck deep into Afghanistan, suddenly the CIA saw the potential to weaken its enemy and even bring about its eventual collapse. Radicalization of the Afghans and Pakistanis offered a great potential. Commies were Godless. And here was a holy war. Afghans prior to this war were not so much into religious Jihads. Zia saw an opportunity to bring in orthodox Islamic rule to Pakistan. Saudis loved it. Money poured in. And Zia saw the advantage of being at the center of the action. He could not bargain for many things. The US could not do anything to Pakistan’s nuclear bomb development and they turned a blind eye to it in order to get through with their objectives. Since Pakistan was an ally, they assumed that no threat will ever emerge against them. Pakistan’s only goal at that time, according to them, was to get even with India, which was on the Soviet camp at that time.
There was no inkling that Al Qaeda will emerge from the ashes of that war and take the whole world into a never ending clash. Pakistan has tried to play the middle man again to facilitate this war. But it is burning Pakistan from within this time. And if that continues further, its nukes can become a danger to the world, and India especially.
Typo error in the above:
“And Zia saw the advantage of being at the center of the action. He could not bargain for many things.”
Should read as,
“And Zia saw the advantage of being at the center of the action. He COULD bargain for many things.”
Do I care if indians and pakistanis slaughter each other?
Heck I don’t. On the other hand, brits are getting what they had wished for – divide and conquer.
The trouble is, brits empire is long gone but the indians kept slaughtering each other.
How barbaric these people are. Are they stupid? YES.
I don’t mind at all if indians and pakistanis wipe each other out for good. After all, the world is over populated.
Now, you lowlies can start to wipe each out for GOOD.
Do I care about Indians? Hell no. they are the lowest of the cast system, ditto pakistanis.
The civilized world would do better without these lowlies.
Indians come up with all sorts of crappy religious philosophy, in the end, they are just bunch of savages. Ditto Pakistanis.
Ghandi was the only smart Indian who had gotten rid of brits.
he was the only smart man out of billion plus stupid indians.
Pakis don’t give sheesh to brits. Indians give whole lot of sheesh to their former english masters.
LOL at stupid indians.
“english masters are coming, english masters are coming” – bunches and lots of indians boys and girls.
Stupid indians, or pakistanis for that matter,
Indians and Pakistanis are more stupid than africans.
@bkhjon
Did you lose your job because of outsourcing to India or Pakistan?? Good. Keep bickering, it doesn’t makes a difference.
Mr. Sanjeeev,
Are you there? You used to weed out inappropriate comments. We are seeing some trolls. Can you step in and stem them? I am referring to the comments made by one bkhjon here. Please take a look and provide a warning.
Thanks,
Rehmat: “We do not have to bring in Pakistan when we talk about Mughal rule.”
Agreed. Mughal history in India is one of the most colorful times the sub-continent has seen. I wish some rich patron makes a detailed TV documentary on them some day. I have read a book titled, ” The Mughal throne” by one Abraham Early. It is incredible to go through the history during this period. I’d say the sub-continent reached its zenith during the period from Akbar to Shah Jehan. The richness and taste expressed during this time, the romantic tales and drama are absolutely thrilling. This was the time when differences were forgotten. Akbar expanded the foundation laid by Sher Shah Suri, the Afghan Sultan and that Mansabdari system stayed in tact even during the British time. Persian became the court language all across the sub-continent.
One will be surprised to learn that Urdu developed in the Deccan peninsula. The world Urdu has the same origin as the Russian word “Orda” or the English word “Horde.” It developed as a link language between soldiers from various linguistic backgrounds under the Bamani Sultans. Can one imagine that this language became rich and mellifluous to the ears over time? I used to love watching some Pakistani shows where Urdu flowed like a poem into one’s ears.
I can go on and on. If anyone is interested, I can provide a list of books to educate oneself about the whole sub-continent. In my opinion it is the most interesting place in the world. I am glad I am a part of it.
rehmat: “We need to discuss the topic of denuking Pakistan as part of the bigger discussion extending even to why dictatorship by 5 permanent UNSC members (they are also Nuclear weapon states). A bigger change is needed”
In my opinion, the whole UN in its current form was created to facilitate the power grip of the Western nations that won the world war II. Times have changed. Many things set up during those days are irrelevant. UK and France were big colonial powers at that time. Now they are small nations like Spain and Germany. And they have privileges that they do not deserve.
The UN is not democratic in its structure. UNSC is a total farce. Veto power negates all that the UN is meant for.
I’d say that the UN itself needs to be replaced with a newer institution where all members have equal voting rights. Wars cannot be waged without the permission of such an international institution. Any country violating that should face sanctions. Such an institution should have the largest military in the world with soldiers and commanders supplied from all volunteering nations. It should have the power to depose dictators and militants who take over countries against the will of their people. Major rivers and resources should come under the governance of such an institution. This will prevent dams being built to deny water to downstream nations, or cause big environmental disasters. Such an institution should have the power to halt whaling or exploiting life in the ocean or indiscriminate deforestation. An international currency should be floated under this organization.
Any international dispute should be taken to this world organization and members should vote on the verdict. Majority votes should decide what the course of action should be. The cases can be on water and resource sharing, transportation, formation of new nations, merging of nations etc.
The world has to become one nation first before we go and populate other planets.
I hope my wish gets fulfilled during my life time.
KP Singh said:
> The world Urdu has the same origin as the Russian word “Orda” or the English word “Horde.”
The full name of Urdu is ‘Zabaan e Urdu e Mualla’ (the language of camp and court). ‘Ordo’ is the Turkish word for ‘army’ from which the English word ‘horde’ comes.
So my Internet research tells me
.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
KP Singh said:
> If anyone is interested, I can provide a list of books to educate oneself about the whole sub-continent.
Please do. I’m very interested. I have also recently ordered a few books from Amazon (admittedly India-centric), and they seem very interesting:
1. In Spite of the Gods (The Miracle of Modern India) by Edward Luce
2. India after Gandhi by Ramachandra Guha
3. Imagining India by Nandan Nilekani
4. Superpower? (The Amazing Race between China’s Hare and India’s Tortoise) by Raghav Bahl
5. The Long View from Delhi (to Define the Indian Grand Strategy for Foreign Policy) by Admiral Raja Menon and Rajiv Kumar
It’s good to see quality writing coming out of India from a number of relatively new authors.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh,
Thanks for your list. My list is more old history oriented and some global ones. I do have Ramachandra Guha’s work in my list. It is a great book.
1. History of India – I by Romilla Thapar
2. History of India – II by Perceival Spear
3. A wonder that was India – by AL Bhasham
4. The adventures of Ibn Batuta – by Ross Dudd
5. The great Arab Conquest – Hugh Kennedy
6. The Ottomon Centuries – by Lord Kinross
7. Raj – by Lawrence James
8. Origin Growth and Suppression of Pindaris – MP Roy
9. Deceivers – History of the Thuggee cult – William Sleeman
10. India a Million Mutinies – VS Naipaul
11. Among the Believers – VS Naipual
12. The Last Mughal – William Dalrymple
13. The Mughal Throne – Abraham Early
14. The travels of Morco Polo – Manual Komroff
15. India after Gandhi – Ramachandra Guha
16. India the Siege within – MJ Akbar
17. Taliban – Ahmed Rashid
18. Duel – Tariq Ali
19. Descent into chaos – Ahmed Rashid
20. Empire of lies – William Sorman
21. A History of South India – Neelakanta Shastri
22. The shadow of a great game – Narendra Singh Sarla
23 Islam – Alfred Guillame
24. The mutiny – Christopher Hibbert
25. Pakistan – Mary Anne Weaver
26. Nuclear Deception – Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark
27 The Islamic Bomb – Weissman and Crosny
And many more. I bought an IPad last week. I am going to fill it up with more books of this kind.
I encourage Pakistani readers to try some of these books as well. If one read more, it only expands one’s knowledge and gives a much more consistent and broader view of matters.
Another book I recommend is:
History of South East Asia by Ananda Coomaraswamy
Sorry for the digression from the main topic.
Ganesh: “The full name of Urdu is ‘Zabaan e Urdu e Mualla’ (the language of camp and court). ‘Ordo’ is the Turkish word for ‘army’ from which the English word ‘horde’ comes.”
Urdu has more to do with military camps. It was a link language used by soldiers from various linguistic and ethnic backgrounds.
Interestingly, when the Russians ran over Afghanistan, they called the Mujahideen as “Dushman” or “Doshman”.
Ghost wars: the secret history of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001
Author: Steve Coll (2004)
While no doubt the South Asian continent is diverse and interesting place, will you also include Afghanistan as part of it? The sub-continent stretches far and wide starting from the mountains of North-western Pakistan to the delta in Bengal and further. The geo-political dynamics, the countries of the subcontinent faces different challenges. For all its problems, Pakistan has gone thorugh a lot during all these years. I think it is about time outside powers stop interfering in the subcontinent and let things sort out on their own. And similarly no one can claim to be an expert on Subcontinent, or know it all unless you are mindful of the decades of intervention in the region by super powers.
World’s Nuke Power include China Russia Britain France USA and Germany.They seem to ignore other Nuke Power Bomb possessing countries which include Israel India Pakistan.This total 9.Why denuclearize Pakistan ?Seem conspiracy to defraud Pakistan. Like Nuke Bomb world religion is two type.Human based or Universe based as I jot down in http://www.islamicsocialclub.wordpress.c om based on NASA’s grand Universe with earth sun moon and Arabia’s new moon(live) for visualisation.Denuclearization talk coincided by reports of Israeli activities in Dubai and Karzai’s sudden wealth and asset in Dubai.This came with 1932 ‘s Saudi Arabia of Lawrence of Arabia recommendation of kill all Shias of Iran.There is solution .Why not we convert as Islamic United Arabia Republic comprising Saudis all the 7 sheiks of UAE and sheiks of Muscat Oman Qatar )all under one roof under same management) but as Islamic UAR.We have now more progressive Central Asians and Russians from Russian Federation and Balkans Europeans and many with background in Nuke Space satellite going to above site shown in picture (including Muslims)
Umairpk: “Ghost wars: the secret history of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001″
Thanks Umair. I’ll get that book and read it.
Another book I’d recommend is “Charlie Wilson’s war”.
We are, however, talking about history the region prior to 1947 mostly. Afghanistan definitely forms a part of it. India’s Islamization starts with Mahmud of Ghazni. But history goes way back to Alexander the Great and beyond. Afghanistan figures in one of the Indian epics titled Mahabharata.
Fellows, according to new rules of the Reuters, the bloggers who are providing lot of crap, abbreviated rude words and posting children stories would seldom experience the direct intervention by the moderators. Instead, the data is being accumulated to profile the individuals and eventually bar them from the Reuters Blog.
All of us, including BKJohn have a free ride until then. This is not a joke but my undersanding of the rules. Let Sanjeev deny it if this is not correct.
Rex Minor
6. The Elephant, The Tiger and The Cell Phone by Shashi Tharoor
That’s something I bought a long time ago but didn’t make much headway reading. It’s more a collection of Tharoor’s newspaper columns. I think he speaks a lot better than he writes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiTrl0W1Q rM
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Bilal59
Sanjeev is a good journalist, he tries to encourage comments from the bloggers with provocative titles. The USA is not concerned with the n*clear weapons, but the nu*clear material.
The “Think Tank” is of the opinion that there are criminals around the world who are interested in peddling n*clear material and not transporting bombs from one part of the world to another.
Iran, North Korea and several other countries ( not Germany)also possess n*clear weapons. North korea is under pressure to support den*clearisation of the korean penuinsula and Iran is under pressure to prevent them becoming self reliant on n*clear weapons.
Rex Minor
PS
Now here is another one, the n*clear reactors which are meant to produce energy for industry and civilian purpose are more dangerous for the people than the n*clear bombs. The americans are not the great expert in this technology, but the French are!
The only reason anybody is worried about Pakistan’s nuclear weapons is precisely because they increasingly look like they’re heading in the same direction as their western neighbour.
If they had sincerely clamped down on all the “non-state actors” running around and put in an honest day’s work helping contain the Taliban, there might not even be US forces next door today.
KPSingh, Umair, Ganesh
I agree with KPsingh that UN is undemocratic organization and needs revamping.
Countries with veto power in UN and the “nuclear have’s” are the shining example of the un-democratic nature of how things are run globally. USA rather than forcing democracy in countries like Iraq should force it in UN. Add to it the NPT issue.
This all directly feeds into discrimination felt by the rest of the countries. Isreal has bomb with US consent and India secretly did the Pokhran-II after the US satellite were positioned to spy on Indian nuclear test site. Pakistan did not do anything different so among others US Japan condemned Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests. Japan Science and Technology Agency told me that a decision on my scholarship application, as would be for all Indian/Pakistani candidates, will not be made for now since our countries performed nuclear tests. Many months later Japan reversed the decision, considered my application and awarded me the scholarship which I equally politely declined saying it was not me who did the nuke test and that I have been offered position somewhere else.
The difference between India and pakistan is nuclear proliferation. But India is not fault-free if you look at Pokhran-I in 1974. US/canada condemned that since heavy water was from US and the reactor was based upon Canadian technology, not meant for such purposes. Canada snapped ties on nuclear technology with India after that test.
Pakistan’s technology was stolen from Europe (AQkhan’s misadventure) aided by China, overlooked by the US.
Having acknowledged that India and Pakistan are both at fault, Pakistan has gone a step further. They should have ensured that they have atomic bomb and stop there and shut up like India did. Exchanging nuclear material/technology with any other nation was a reckless act that a Pakistani should also condemn. One can support Iran;s case or North Korea;s case for having nukes but proliferating nuke material with N.Korea and others for petty money and technology was irresponsible.
Clearly US and China, and the UN permanent member NWStates are at fault too.
Merely citing risk for dirty bomb and thinking of using covert operations to denuke a country makes little sense. It is about time when force is not used for problem solving.
UN should be made democratic with no power to a single nation. However, should a country of let us say 100, 000 people that has never been heard of carry the same voice as the US or China or France will have to asked? Also after UN with 190or so countries, OIC with 57 countries is the 2nd largest organization. NATO has 28countries. If UN becomes democratic, we will see voting banks with sudden shift in power dynamics although it may not be that straightforward.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for the book references.I have read some including “Nuclear Deception” by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark and Descent into Chaos by Ahmed Rashid.
@kEiThZ
“The only reason anybody is worried about Pakistan’s nuclear weapons is precisely because they increasingly look like they’re heading in the same direction as their western neighbour.”
***What would you do if you were an Iranian? Don’t you think as an Iranian, it makes perfect sense to acquire nuclear weapons sooner than later the way UN is used as a platform and sometimes even not used in waging wars. Countries feel real fear and a bag of nuclear material is a great insurance against the superpower landing in their country.
@Rehmat
You have stated several times that whole idea of getting nukes is to deter the invaders. Which effectively means that “jiski laathi uski bhains” (survival of the fittest and mightiest). Now tell me how can we have a UN with equal powers when only few have nukes? Can this really happen? Will US, China, France, or for that fact any super power at any given time let it happen??
Now someone may put forth the point that unity among rest will force super powers to kneel. Do you think people shouting ‘independence independence’ all the time can be united at any platform?? When we cannot be united in our own societies, cities, states, nations then what to talk of being united in UN. On one hand everyone wants a SEPARATE country for himself (and on top of that takes pride if one achieves the separate country, eg: Europe) and on other hand we talk of putting united fronts in UN against the super powers. They are not super powers because they are supreme beings but because rest of all are fools to keep fighting for their so called independence from their OWN people.
If there is a fault with system then improve system instead of seeking independence. Assam in India is an example. ULFA seeked independence, govt pushed through development programs, ULFA surrendered and now finally ULFA men including top commanders are released to let them live a respectable life. Assam is a happy state now and stands as an example to everyone else seeking so called independence from their own people. Punjab is another such state. Assam is more recent development though.
But looking at world at large specially Europe and Africa I hardly see any such resort to put a united front against super powers’ monopoly in UNSC. Europe is virtually ruled by France and Germany and African continent is mess (created by Arabs+US in background). That leaves Asia, led by China. China already has its veto in UN so that leaves space for no one else. Back to square zero.
UN needs to be replaced with a newer, more powerful world organization, that is democratic to the core. No country should have any clout in driving such an organization. If such an organization had existed, Iraq war would never have happened. And the function of such a body should be towards diffusing tension between two countries and preventing cold war like blocks from emerging.
Pakistan military has one advantage now, which they did not have, when a third level ambassador threatened Musharaf. Today they are able to retaliate!
I wonder if this is a progress, since on the domestic side, Pakistan military has opened up a can of worms at several fronts which it is not capable to control. Pakistan military would eventually be confined to former garrison towns which the Brits constructed for their protection.
Even n*clear militaries are helpless against asymetric Asymetric warfare.
Rex Minor
@Rex Manor
Why worry defining N*Clear, Nuclear or Hiroshima or think tank? There is One earth many galaxies infinite hole or space with Trillions of watery or none watery thing.Water is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen and other Air Nitrogen etc.For experiment by God , Pre Human creations were punished.Replacement seem interlinked.They are currently in different format of religion behaviour and atheism or in sexuality orientation wealth and poverty being evaluated .In my opinion they have been bunched together as what they did together jointly causing same mischief.They are based on previous format re-evaluated as it seem automated movement determining and positioning .Religion is also evolution as religious evolution.There is warning.Asking latest Religion one to invite previous ones to be religious and take heed.Instead people have designed own moral and behaviour code.You have to have it by forcei.e.wealth or poverty or sin.Security from Punishment is based upon getting data erased by one and Only creator (before death).However,the creator is extremely merciful ready and willing to forgive if you admit and ask.Some will die as arrogant as in the past..Human commit own mischief or sin by using other .People are squandering valuable time in sleep.Now Saudis want Nuke Power plants after squandering what is not theirs.Iran wants to supply Nuke PP with own Uranium Mine and purification as future exporterer.Nothing Wrong .Who cares? People as they commit illicity automatically are drawn into galaxies(hostile and hot zone).Imagine engine of A380 jumbo jet with 500 -800 capacity with 5000 deg c (half of sun’s).I pray for my self to come out of it despite peaceful sleep heating airconditioning for now or in suitable climate living (with or without comfort .Like Sanjeev I come from India and I was in Pakistan as well as in Delhi twice in last 5 yrs and in many parts in EU Americas.Israelis Americans Canadians or Brits are also squandering wealth time and converting good situation into bad by force i.e.you have to have it due to their incompetence own WMD using Resource (not own) or DEBT (also by force).Human did come via Adam and Eve creation (it seems).Evolution of People in current format is due to religion or place.Human is from same origin.In website,I gave site http://www.islamicsocialclub.wordpress.c om/.Says religion look again and again and see if you can see joints in space.But imagine space around and expand it into many skies and joints. Look and imagine religion of time travel worth years in split of seconds from which came prayer.(morning Azan says get up even tiny prayer is better than sleep).In Galaxy comment,religion says sun rise from east sets in the west amid rotation of earth sun moon night and day until one day no more permission will be given to rise from east.Even now Prez Obama’s Hawai ? May be it is tiime to call it sun rise from West.Or If this means death when drawn into hot temperature where head content will be boiled over amid cooling and reheating.Israelis US Canadians or others are joke.
@belal59
I am not the one who is going to disagree with anything you have said, a typical thoughful asian approach.
Even here we say;
Et es wie et is, ( It is what it is)
Et kutt wie et kutt,( It happens what has to happen)
Et het noch immer jot jehyange( So far it has always been good)
Küste hük nit küste morge( If not today then tomorrow),
A good day.
Rex Minor
@777
“You have stated several times that whole idea of getting nukes is to deter the invaders. Which effectively means that “jiski laathi uski bhains” (survival of the fittest and mightiest). Now tell me how can we have a UN with equal powers when only few have nukes? Can this really happen? Will US, China, France, or for that fact any super power at any given time let it happen??”
***So far no nuclear weapon-bearing state has NOT been attacked by another one with or without nuclear weapons. That has been the end result so far. But indirectly it also means that the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons in a war is REAL. There is no fight over “buffalo”. It makes sure that no one loses its buffalo if they have a stick. Iraq lost its, N,Korea Pakistan will not since they have stick. Disadvantages are that covert warfare and the use of terror as a tool has increased.
UN permanent membership and acquiring nuclear material for destructive purpose is related. They are the same 5 nations.
Peaceful use of nuclear energy is extended to non-permanent UNSC members and non-NWStates. There are 16 total countries where least 25% of the nation’s need is fulfilled by nuclear energy–so 11 non-nuclear weapon states. France uses the max with 75% of electricity in France derived from nuclear energy.
India is unique that it is an unofficial nuclear weapon state but been recognized officially for the civil use of nuclear energy.
Clearly peaceful use of nuclear energy does not seem to be the problem. The use is debatable but that is a separate issue. Acquiring nuclear weapons for anyone but 5 nations is not allowed nor is allowed the peaceful use of energy for some like Iran mentioning doubt that it is not for peaceful purposes.
“But looking at world at large specially Europe and Africa I hardly see any such resort to put a united front against super powers’ monopoly in UNSC. Europe is virtually ruled by France and Germany and African continent is mess (created by Arabs+US in background). That leaves Asia, led by China. China already has its veto in UN so that leaves space for no one else. Back to square zero.”
***I do not expect anyone in the world standing up, raising voice that would be heard and changing the things. Not gonna happen in foreseeable future. Rather reverse has happened. Look at Indian stance for Iran. India changed its stance in favor of the USA even as Russia and China did not. Another issue is Iran-India gas pipeline that USA is trying to influence. China is tilting closer to Iran and India is going away. I personally do not like when foreign policies are changed at this level. This has been India’s weak point versus China. Back to the issue, my expectation is that tackling the issue of UN and nuclear weapons should be and has to be done by 5 UN members and the NWStates. That is the most viable approach if they really fear dirty bombs. These are the countries who shed maximum tears about dirty bombs coming from Pakistan or doubt Iran’s program. They have to denuke themselves of their stockpile. Peaceful use of energy should be extended to all nations by meeting common International standards.
Rex Minor said:
> Even here we say;
Et es wie et is, ( It is what it is)
Et kutt wie et kutt,( It happens what has to happen)
Et het noch immer jot jehyange( So far it has always been good)
Küste hük nit küste morge( If not today then tomorrow),
What language is this again? Reminds me of Charlie Chaplin speaking “German” in The Great Dictator.
Having fun at our expense?
As for Belal59 and his thoughts, he seems to be having fun too.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh Prasad asked<
This is the colonia dialect spoken locally, probably a mixture of Roman and German language, and perhaps flavoured with urdu language spoken in north of India?
This language is spoken when the foreigners are around and are not meant to follow the conversation. Being a jew Charlie Chaplin could not understand it.
rex Minor
Pakistan: “Being a jew Charlie Chaplin could not understand it.”
Yeah right! Based on your analysis, Dalai Lama is chief of Ku Klux Klan.
Can you verify something before you proclaim it?
http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?I D=2
He was sympathetic to Jews because the Germans slaughtered them.
“Can you verify something before you proclaim it?”
Posted by KPSingh01
NO. Because then, he won’t be able to dump the psychotic garbage clogging his brain, on this blog!
Mortal1: “Because then, he won’t be able to dump the psychotic garbage clogging his brain, on this blog”
I thought he said it comes out of his guts. Thank God! Internet has not advanced yet to reveal smells.
It is one thing not to have the knowledge of smething, it is another to challenge the knowledge by producung some very cheap references on this blog.
The former seretary of state mrs albright also claimed unawareness of having jewish parents, the Danish cartoonist and the former british foreign secretary also took the cover of an atheist, denying their jewish heritage.
I had no intention to belittle either the jewish heritage or charlie chaplin.
Rex minor
PS I get the impression that you guys are not aware of the “Naming Procedure” in Germany under the Great Dictator, g Prasad referred to?
Pakistan: “It is one thing not to have the knowledge of smething, it is another to challenge the knowledge by producung some very cheap references on this blog.”
The burden is on you to prove your point. Cheap references or not, I provided one. If you want to counter that with any genuine, authentic reference, do it. Otherwise your words have no meaning. You claimed Charlie Chaplin is a Jew. There was no need for it in the context of the discussions. Since you brought it up, provide a valid reference. Let me see if you can do that.
Since you claim to live in Germany, you must be aware of modern day analysis – no hand waving statements work now-a-days. If you claim something, have proof in some form available to back it up. Your claims seem to resemble mosque gossip, which is quite powerful now-a-days in influencing young minds into revolting.
I learnt German at University. What Rex Minor posted was not German. He’s taking us for a ride. Nice try, Rex.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Ganesh
You were not supposed to understand the local dialect, did’nt I mention this? Since when do people learn local dialects of any language in a university? I thought you were cleaverer but brighter as well than the rest of the mob who rely on newspaper stories?
Rex Minor
Rex,
It didn’t look much like Koelsch either, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
I wish Indians would reform the education system so that your attitude towards other communities of the world does not reflect the inferiority complex!
Rex minor
Pakistan: ” wish Indians would reform the education system so that your attitude towards other communities of the world does not reflect the inferiority complex!”
Would you mind providing some examples about Indian education system reflecting inferiority complex? We are all waiting with eagerness.
You write in another thread that to know Islam one has to know Arabic and have to have lived or visited Arabia. Have you visited India? How long did you stay there? What do you know about India? What do you know about its educational system? How did you figure out that it reflects inferiority complex? Education is not on history alone. Education covers a wide variety of subjects varying from math, physics, biology, chemistry, social sciences, languages and so on. Where do they impart inferiority complex? India’s current educational system is modeled after that of the British system. Some of its technical and business schools rank in the top 100 in the world.
Do you have any idea which century you are living on? What has Germany given you in terms of vision and outlook? Your expressions here show gross level of ignorance of the contemporary world. You should try to take the thing that is covering your eyes.
Definitely!!!!!!!!!!!! a nation that can not uphold the rule of law in its own borders or secure its external borders does not qualify to maintain a nuclear bomb. It should be operate by the UN security council or IAEA!!!! ASAP!!!! & India on the same note, does not qualify for nuclear bombs.
No nation within a certain radius of the Holy city of Jerusalem should be allowed to have nuclear bombs!!!
Ancient history around the middle east should be classed a no nuclear zone!!!
the trio Religion should make a pact of peace!!!!
not New World Order, but New World Peace!!!!
Both India and Pakistan needs independent education system, not a British, not an american or a Russian etc. I have found Pakistani people people
To be able to communicate with others one needs to be civil and not use counterproduczive commMost people Politeness