Afghan Journal

Lifting the veil on conflict, culture and politics

On the Afghanistan-Pakistan border : cutting off the nose to spite the face

July 13, 2011

Pakistan’s defence minister has threatened to move forces away from the Afghan border, where they are deployed to fight al Qaeda and the Taliban, if the United States cuts off aid to the cash-strapped country. Ahmed Mukhtar’s logic is that Pakistan is essentially fighting America’s war on the Afghan border, and if it is going to put the squeeze on its frontline partner, then it will respond by not doing America’s bidding.

But  apart from the issue of whether Pakistan can really stand up to the United States  is the question of whether Islamabad can afford to pull back from the Afghan border for its own sake. This is no longer the porous border where movement of insurgents is confined to members of the Afghan Taliban travelling across to launch attacks on foreign forces in their country. Over the past few weeks, the traffic has moved in the reverse direction, with militants crossing over from Afghanistan to attack Pakistani security posts, Pakistani officials say.  These are not armed men sneaking across in twos and threes , but large groups of up to 600 men armed with rocket launchers and  grenades flagrantly crossing the mountainous border to attack security forces and civilians in Pakistan. (It also stands Pakistan’s strategy of seeking strategic depth versus India on its head; now the rear itself has become a threat.)

It is not very clear who these raiders are  – which adds to the anxiety - but one obvious  guess is that they could be members of the Pakistan Taliban who have come under pressure in their mountain redoubts in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) from the military and may have found sanctuary just over the border in eastern Afghanistan.  The umbrella organisation is sworn to fighting the Pakistani state and is mainly behind the wave of suicide bombings in the country over the past three years, stepping up the momentum even more after Osama bin Laden’s killing, with an audacious attack on a naval base in the southern city of Karachi.

Indeed, the Pakistani military’s offensives have been focused on crushing the Tehrik-e-Taliban, and  it is inconceivable that they would thin out on the Afghan border which is where the threat is coming from, at the moment.

There is another, equally worrying challenge. What if the U.S.-led NATO forces were to cross  the border in “hot pursuit” of insurgents? It’s not entirely impossible : in May NATO helicopters , pursuing insurgents, were reported to have crossed into North Waziristan which followed another raid back in October in which two Pakistani soldiers were accidentally shot. Two years earlier, in September 2008, American commandos carried out a raid in Pakistan’s tribal areas and killed several people suspected of being insurgents. The attack led to outrage among Pakistan’s leaders — and warnings not to do it again.

With ties testing new lows each week, and America’s impatience with the militants growing, the chances of greater aggression on the border have only increased. For Pakistan to pull out from the troubled frontier at this point seems like a self-defeating goal, more than anything else.

Comments

Ahmed Mukhtar’s logic is that Pakistan is essentially fighting America’s war on the Afghan border, and if it is going to put the squeeze on its frontline partner, then it will respond by not doing America’s bidding.”

Mukhtar is right in his thinking. Pakistan went into this war for two reasons. One, the fear of US reprisal attacks on Pakistan (being bombed back to the stone age by Mush’s own admission) and secondly because of the lure of the windfall which was sure to come its way – as happened during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan earlier). It is simply not Pakistan’s war but one into which it has willy-nilly (more nilly) been dragged into..

Even so, to make these threats, even at its own peril, is in keeping with Pakistan’s record. As someone sonce remarked,r Pakistan has mastered the art of negotiating with others holding a gun to its own head. One day it may put itself into such a corner that it may have no option but to pull the trigger. The world better be prepared for the consequences.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

I hope Pakistani army does not take an emotional decision to launch one last, all out suicide war with India, now that hopes are being lost. The only thing that would put all the various militant groups in Pakistan (those who are against and those who are assets) is a war with India. This can achieve many goals – unite all the divided factions, put the US on the defensive and for the first time fight a nuclear war. There is not much options left. Pakistan knows it is going down. Might as well cause enough damage to the favorite enemy while going down. There have been blasts in Mumbai. It has begun.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

$800 million have been held back, Lt.Gen Shuja DG ISI is in Washington, Gen. Mattis CENTCOM chief is in Rawalpindi to work their way out of this, much of the money was on account of CSF-Coalition Support Funds to reimburse for the cost of deploying 120000 troops across Pak-Afghan border. Allies do not work like this, Pakistan Army’s message coming out of the 140th corps commander conference is clear;

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-week_view&id=1792#wv_link1792

“The Forum reiterated the resolve to fight the menace of terrorism in our own national interest using our own resources.”

in other words, we don’t need the money and will go it alone. What next?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 
 

More attacks in Mumbai today. And the beat goes on…

Umairpk, stay safe, inshallah.

Posted by BajaArizona | Report as abusive
 

“Going it alone” Posted by Umairpk

As the article points out, that would be easier said than done. Also, I believe, cutting off military aid is just the first step towards economic & diplomatic isolation of Pakistan. If Pakistan does not change course, the next action would be cutting off all economic aid to Pakistan, followed by trade sanctions and cutting off IMF loans. Let’s see how Pakistan is able to withstand all that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Allies do not work like this-Umairpk

On the other hand, allies do not need to bribed, cajoled and constantly badgered into doing things are in their own interests (such as guarding their own borders, prosecuting terrorists, catching arch-terrorists living near defence establishments, etc.).

Behave like an insolent child and you deserve to get treated like one.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is very good at talking. It may yet learn the truth of talking with a big stick!

Posted by ruhr | Report as abusive
 

Aatish Taseer (son of Salman Taseer) has this analysis of Pakistan’s problems:

http://on.wsj.com/qwGb33

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:
First who the heck is Aatish Taseer to analyze Pakistan? just because his father was a Pakistani does not make him half Pakistani. Aatish Taseer is an Indian because he adopted his mother’s homeland. secondly, his analysis is wrong, there is a huge difference between muslims living in Pakistan and those who were left in India. It is a fact that Indian muslims are treated as second class citizens, not given their rights, on numerous occasions in modern times they were subject to massacres like Gujarat.
Aatis Taseer goes on to foolishly blame Pakistan’s misfortune after the 1990′s on the Pakistan Army. DEAD WRONG, any Pakistan observer knows it is the strength and cohesion of Pakistan’s armed forces that is the difference between order and chaos in Pakistan.
The most laughable was ‘bollywood culture’ in Pakistani homes, utter non-sense.
Unless Aatish Taseer matures enough, I would not be willing to take this cartoon character seriously. Heck I would rather give more credibility to someone like Fatima Bhutto, the young niece of Benazir bhutto.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

and BTW, Shehrbano Taseer, Salman Taseer’s daughter is a young, intelligent emerging journalist with Newsweek Pakistan, and a vocal liberal voice inside Pakistan. The Taseer family have been patriotic Pakistanis, why Aatish Taseer can’t get over this is easy to understand, he is an Indian, thus anguished why his father hated India. These emerging young generation is talented and Pakistan’s future depends how this new generation unleash its potential.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“Aatish Taseer (son of Salman Taseer) has this analysis of Pakistan’s problems”

Aatish Taseers’ analysis is spot on. His father’s attitude towards India is reflected by many Pakistanis (including the ones on this blog). They love to mock India for it’s failures & highlight it’s negatives while refusing to acknowledge it’s many achievements & positives. It’s a real shame because Salman Taseer would have actually found more support from Indians than Pakistanis.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Shekhar Gupta of the Indian Express wrote a touching obituary to Salman Taseer on his death. The two were good friends and Taseer made frequent trips to India and according to Gupta, he was someone who worked very hard for better relations between the two countries. According to Gupta, he never minced words or felt shy of giving his opinion. A fact that tragically cost him his life in Pakistan.

The article is not as controversial or sensational as the title makes it out to be. He is simply giving his opinion within reason. I wish Umair could refute him point by point instead of just shooting the messenger. A difference of opinion, but no cogent argument on why he differs. That would make for an interesting discussion.

And finally, with a Pakistani father, he is quite right in saying he is half Pakistani, doesn’t matter where he lives. For all you know, he may have regularly visited his father in Pakistan. Its nothing to go ballistic about.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

whether atish taseer refected his fathers priate views on india we do not know; however its a fairly accurate description of the mindset of some of the pakistani elite and in particular of the pak army/isi is a vis india as its merely a manifestation of ‘pakistan idealogy’.

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive
 

Terrorism is a global problem, and not the problem of a single nation whether it is USA or Pakistan. Hopefully sensibilities will prevail and hopefully the terrorism will be in control. Out of control terrorism spreads fast and is dangerous to all except the terrorists themselves.

Posted by kritik1 | Report as abusive
 

The article has a serious flaw. This is not America’s War on Terror. This is a global war on terror. So neither Pakistan or USA should be adamant about it, or in denial of the dangers from terrorism.
Sensible solution and resumption of “talks” is the first positive step. Secondly, you should make every attempt to invite USA to the table for talks.
Being arrogant is not an excuse. It is definitely foolish pride and a foolish statement.

Posted by kritik1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk said:

> who the heck is Aatish Taseer to analyze Pakistan?

There is a saying: “What should they know of England who only England know?”

Sometimes, it takes an outsider to articulate a profound insight about a country. Millions of people living in the country would not even be aware of it.

So who the heck is Aatish Taseer? A journalist with a fresh pair of eyes, that’s who.

Instead of being defensive about his analysis, try it on for size and see if it fits. It is obvious from the comments on this very blog that Pakistanis deny their Indian/Hindu past and claim an Arab lineage. Perhaps the India-hatred lies in the heritage they wish to disown…? There’s no shame in Pakistanis admitting to a Hindu past, just as there’s no shame in Hindus admitting to a period of Islamic rule. History is history. We can look at it with pride, shame or a matter-of-fact attitude. It’s our choice.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Sure :-) .

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

http://www.sajadhaider.com/flight-of-the -falcon/
FLIGHT OF THE FALCON

Demolishing myths of Indo-Pak wars 1965 & 1971 – Story of a Fighter Pilot (Revised Third Edition)

The Author:

Air commodore Sajad Haider is a decorated fighter pilot (recipient of the Gallantry Award of Sitara-e-Jurat, equivalent of the Distinguished Flying Cross) and a veteran of the 1965 and 1971 air wars with India.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“Indian/hindu past? where did the pashtuns come from in India? where did the Afghan invaders like Shahab ud Din Ghauri, Sultan Mehmood Ghaznavi come from? Where did Muhammad Bin Qasim come from? ”

Where did Jinnah come from? ZA Bhutto’s mother was a Hindu. Who are Mohajirs in Pakistan? Who are Biharis? Who are Bangladeshis? They were not fathered by Arabs, were they? Do they count as Muslims? Even your beloved Alamgir, Aurangzeb has a pedigree of Hindu origin. His great grand father Akbar had a Rajput wife. Jehangir, Shah Jehan and Aurangzeb come through that lineage. Try as hard as you can, unfortunately you can never erase your “shameful” Hindu origin. It definitely is a mix of various ethnic groups, but unfortunately for you, the “Hindu” stain remains. It is very clear that Pakistanis like this are heading the same way as Nazis did in Germany, looking for pure blood. Have you heard of last names in Pakistan that end with “Rana, Rajput, Chaudhury, Rao, Chauhan” etc? They are all of Hindu origin. What you have is an inferiority complex. You belong to the conquered people who switched sides to hide their shame. Such people would readily discard their heritage and origin. India had Anglo Indians who just did not want to call themselves as Indians. Unfortunately you will have to eat your shame.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

That Aatish Taseer article was spot on.

And the tweet says it all. It’s only out of an obsession of hate that one can celebrate another’s failures. If Salman Taseer didn’t care at all about India and if his Pakistani compatriots weren’t obsessed with seeing India brought down, then nobody would delight in a Tweet about an Indian rocket launch failure. That Pakistanis find delight in such statements about India (rather than bewilderment) says a lot.

And wherever I read Pakistani comments on the same piece, you just get back the same crap. Don’t like the message? Shoot the messenger…or rather impugn his character.

I haven’t yet read one intelligent retort from a Pakistani on this viewpoint. And Aatish Taseer is not the first one to put such a viewpoint forward. Usually all you get is, “We’re not obssessed with India.” Yeah, right. I’m not Indian and I don’t buy that.

Indeed, just read forums like Pakistan Defence. The comments on this article are unbelievable. They accuse the author of being a bastard. They suggest that Dari be imposed as a third national language to further separate Pakistani culture from Indian culture….all going to prove Aatish’s point.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

It’s interesting that you bring up Sajad Haider’s autobiography. I find it interesting that Pakistanis increasingly praise fighter pilots. Could it be because the PAF and the PN are two services that don’t play politics? These are the services where you find the truly patriotic servants of Pakistan today.

Personally, I would have liked to have read the journals of Zia Ul-Haq. The man who truly messed up Pakistan. Ironically, you say the Army has held the nation together (despite the Army giving Pakistan this man), while you like so many other Pakistani commentators impugned Aatish Taseer for having daddy issues (I don’t see what his parental lineage has to do with his article) because you(and others who use the same attack) have no intelligent retort to his article.

Answer me a few questions:

1) Would Salman Taseer’s tweet have made you smile if you had subscribed to his Twitter feed?
2) How does India’s economic growth make you feel? Are you happy for the Indians or do you view their success with intrepidation?
3) Are you proud of your culture as is or do you wish there were more Arabic and Islamic elements in it, and less in common with Indian culture?

You don’t have to share your answers with us. But know that how you feel about these questions, will show correct Aatish Taseer is.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

It’s hilarious that Pakistanis would consider not defending the Afghan border. That would only bring more aid cuts and virtually guarantee more American SOF raids across the border. And the Americans would have world opinion on their side. If the Pakistanis aren’t going to crush the terrorists, who are a global headache, the world will be happy to see the US do it. Nobody has the time or patience for feeble and half-hearted talk about Pakistani sovereignty.

If Pakistanis had any self-respect and actually valued their sovereignty they would have crush every terrorist and jihadist outfit (including the likes of the Haqqanis) a long time ago.

In reality, their moral equivocating on terrorism belies their actual respect for their own sovereignty. They have no problem being doormats for groups that kill Indians and Westerners. And they wonder why that has brought the world’s superpower to their doorstep.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

“If you were to recommend someone who can analyze Pakistan, bring someone who is authentic and credible” Posted by Umairpk

You mean, “bring someone who you can agree with” & none of those darn acclaimed & well reputed “coconut liberals” like Ahmed Rashid, Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Pracha etc. :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair: I would like to add one more to Keith’s list of self introspecting questions for you:

4) When you heard about last week’s Mumbai terror strikes, did you say (verbally or in your mind) “FINALLY”!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
“If you were to recommend someone who can analyze Pakistan, bring someone who is authentic and credible.”

You mean someone who says, “ISLAAAAM is best and f***k the rest. India/Israel/USA are Kaafir. Kill the kaafir get the jannat. Whole world should bow to Islam. Islamic nation Pakistan is greatest….etc etc etc”. Yes???

When one sees one’s own ugly face in mirror then those who deny the truth NEVER stand a chance to improve themselves. Denial of truth does not change truth, for truth is not subject to opinions. But then what can we expect from someone who puts religion before his country. Today Pakistan is full of such fools who put religion before nation. And in India that number is going down by the day (although very very slowly according to me), hence increased cohesion and growth.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

The reason pakistani middle classes detest anything Hindu or Indian is because being part of establishment’s petty bourgeoisie they follow the state ideology very keenly. Poor pakistanis don’t give a damn about their lineage. Sadly the same classes among Hindus in India display this kind of tribe mentality trying to convince others that Hindus have best culture and what not.

Since the ideology of the pakistani state rests on the two nation theory, Which practically means Hindus and Muslims are two different nations. Being muslims themselves, they had to create a sense of superiority over Hindus (false superiority or artificial in every nature of the word) who are in large numbers.

The establishment tried to assosiate themselves with Turkey and Iran in early 50 and 60′s and owing to oil discoveries started to assosiate themselves with Arabs or the force propogation of the idea of caliphate.

Most of the muslims in India,pakistan and Bangladesh are of south-Asian origin and DNA similarities is a proof of this. Under the hard skull every pakistani knows they had south-Asian Hindu lineage and fear that their “land of the pure” ideology is discredited by their south-Asian lineage, hence this borrowed Arab lineage. Somehow in their blind belief these Pakistanis believe Arabs are purer race (laughable when Islam does not recognize difference between humans). What these guys don’t know is that the arabs themselves had a pagan lineage, when their forefathers worshipped multiple gods which represented each natural entity (Sun,Moon, Wind, Fire, Water,Land etc) and a metaphysical one (happiness, anger,power).

Not surprisingly the people from either Arab (Egypt) or Persian states(Iran and Turkey) do not disown their history (pharaohs or parsis of Iran) due to tolerant attitudes towards cultual evolution. The renaissance in the christian world had made them more rational and linient to ideas and even they too believe most of the world was pagan (remember greek gods) and every abraham religion has pagan roots and their books still reflect them. Rather than seeing this as historical-cultural evolution, Pakistani’s voilent birth regards everything into Good-and-Evil war.
I wish there will be moments in pakistani future when they get inspired and want to become an Indonesian or Turkish rather than sticking themselves to false Arab roots (If they want to get inspired for better future, religion itself should not come into picture in the first place). Indians get truly inspired by Japan who owes no historial roots to India (except for cultural lineage aka Buddhism).

Oh, And the pushtoons that you have talked about, they are people of Gandhara or kandahar(specially mentioned in Hindu Texts like Mahabharata who are known to be Adamant,cunning,perseverant do what is needed. The charecter Sakuni eventually due to his hatred of Bharata vansha (pandavas and kauravas) eventually succeeds in psychologically poisons one Group against the other which leads to evetually war. Pushtoons have pre-islamic roots. Muslim races did not come out of the blue from the skies they have very much our own Earth origins!!

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

If Umair can understand, He could as well read a simple wiki link to understand that we have same Genetic markers and same DNA, maybe thats the reason he is attractedt to us and obsessed with us trying to be “not us”!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_an d_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia#Pakistan

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Umair might feel hurt if he comes to know that Balochistan is more related to the Dravidian culture remaining in Southern India. The Brahui language in Balochistan is closely related to the native South Indian languages. Ganesh, correct me if I am wrong. I have read about this.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/18/resilienc e-to-what-end.html
A remarkable article.

Kp, Even I have read this about Brahui language,will come back soon on this with more info.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

KeithZ: “You don’t have to share your answers with us. But know that how you feel about these questions, will show correct Aatish Taseer is.”

It is called arrogance. It is due to this arrogance that Pakistan refused to take India’s financial help during the floods last year. They told India to go to the UN and channel it through there. It was too shameful for these guys to accept anything from India. It is this attitude that has brought their downfall.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

““If you were to recommend someone who can analyze Pakistan, bring someone who is authentic and credible”

Going by past experience I will be hugely surprised if my question is answered. Even so here goes:

Umair, your statement just maligns young Taseer but would you care to substantiate your implication as to why you call him neither authentic nor credible? What is there in what he has said that you found unauthentic, false or incredible?

That would make more sense to me and help in understanding your opinion. Otherwise you are, as usual, just going off maligning someone just because what he says is unpalatable or embarrassing to you.

For example, going by your reply to Ganesh’s innocuious statement, about the Hindu past of the Indian sub-continent as also the considerable Islamic domination, you are merely proving Taseer right when he says “….rejection of India, its culture and past, that lies at the heart of the idea of Pakistan.” It is like some Indian here lashing out at Ganesh for talking of the period of Islamic rule. Both are undeniable facts, even though you may want wish it weren’t all true. Which is exactly what taseer says.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

I hate this, but a lunatic mouthpiece is getting more attention than he deserves and if that is what Aatish Taseer wanted, seems he is succeeding. However, here is an article appeared in Express Tribune in response to Aatish Taseer:

Aatish’s personal fire
http://tribune.com.pk/story/212319/aatis hs-personal-fire/
(note aatish in urdu means fire)
while many have named Aatish differently, I would say his underdeveloped mind is still causing sibling rivalry and since his sister Shehrbano Taseer appears to be an emerging journalist within Pakistan, the neglected sibling is vying for attention. Who is obssessed with whom? evident from the number of Indians on a reuters blog re: Pakistan. I don’t think it is important to discuss Aatish Taseer any further, a person who based his judgement on a tweet has devoid of any moral or intellectual integrity.

Keith:
shame on India whose power drunk elite send failed rockets into space and majority of their people live in slums and below poverty line. Kudos to Salman Taseer for calling a spade a spade. You want to read an intelligent retort from a Pakistani? read the ET article above. re: Aatish Taseer’s point of obssession with India? you tell me how many Indian Army divisions are facing Pakistan? and still if Pakistan Army stands upto it that is labelled obssession?

“It’s interesting that you bring up Sajad Haider’s autobiography. I find it interesting that Pakistanis increasingly praise fighter pilots. Could it be because the PAF and the PN are two services that don’t play politics? These are the services where you find the truly patriotic servants of Pakistan today.”

-I brought up Air Commodore Sajad Haider’s biography not least because my own father and uncles proudly served in the PAF. Back then a numerically smaller but qualitatively superior Pakistan Air Force took on a numerically larger adversary. In my interaction with this veteran and hero, he has exposed how courageous and gutsy the rank and file of armed forces are. The target audience of his autobiography are the future military leaders of Pakistan and general public alike. The day when this nation gets rid of corrupt leaders is when Pakistan will truly become the Pakistan it should be. And I commend Sajad Haider for his contribution in setting the records straigth. Now to ur questions:

1) Would Salman Taseer’s tweet have made you smile if you had subscribed to his Twitter feed?
-I subscribe to his daughter Shehrbano’s twitter feed and appreciate her work in journalism, Salman Taseer is more so your question is irrelevant. Still I think there was no need to smile on his tweet, I would have taken it normally.

2) How does India’s economic growth make you feel? Are you happy for the Indians or do you view their success with intrepidation?
-We do not feel threatened by India’s economic growth, good luck to them and they still have a long way to go before they can overcome massive corruption and pull their masses out of poverty. Anything they can do, we can do better, we will surely one day imitate their economic success. Successive Pakistani civilians govts. (Nawaz and now Zardari) wish good ties/business with India and now even the Army here approves it.

3) Are you proud of your culture as is or do you wish there were more Arabic and Islamic elements in it, and less in common with Indian culture?
-Proud of our culture/family values as is, it is enough Islamic. And there is no question of being either less or more common with India, that it was entirely different from Indian culture is evident from 1947 partition when Pakistan was carved out.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“In reality, their moral equivocating on terrorism belies their actual respect for their own sovereignty. They have no problem being doormats for groups that kill Indians and Westerners. And they wonder why that has brought the world’s superpower to their doorstep.”

-Shame on you, with 5000 officers and men martyred and 30000 civilian casualties in this war, no wonder Pakistan will fight the war with its own resources and own pace. And confront anyone who would like to repeatedly violate its soverignty, time and again it has been explained by the Pakistan Army that the country will not commit suicide by going after Haqqanis based in North Waziristan until the forces are stretched thin. After there is more capacity, and following and step by step approach by dealing with current TTP, Haqqanis will be finally confronted. The question is will Pakistan’s allies leave it betrayed os stand beside it?

“If Pakistanis had any self-respect and actually valued their sovereignty they would have crush every terrorist and jihadist outfit (including the likes of the Haqqanis) a long time ago. ”

-If YOU had any self respect, you would have acknowledged “Operation Cyclone”, Natl. Security advisor Brezinski telling the Pashtuns that God is on their side and to take back their villages from communitsts standing right in the center of Khyber pass, the pushtun heartland and preaching Jehad, You would have acknowledged the history, William Casey, Charlie Wilson, stinger missiles and that yesterday’s freedom fighters are todays terrorists. I acknowledge where there are faults and corrective actions required, why don’t you recognize that common history. Pakistan alone is not responsible, and does not have the magic wand to undo everything alone.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Dara:
“Going by past experience I will be hugely surprised if my question is answered. Even so here goes:

Umair, your statement just maligns young Taseer but would you care to substantiate your implication as to why you call him neither authentic nor credible? What is there in what he has said that you found unauthentic, false or incredible?

That would make more sense to me and help in understanding your opinion. Otherwise you are, as usual, just going off maligning someone just because what he says is unpalatable or embarrassing to you.”

-Dara, I sure will answer your question, see the problem is you are an Indian and you admire young Aatish Taseer, I am a Pakistani and I admire young Shehrbano Taseer you know why? because Aatish Taseer is an Indian and Shehrbano Taseer is a Pakistan. Both siblings belong to a prominent political family and same father but fate had seperated them across the border. Tell me one thing where Aatish Taseer sounds credible or authentic in his article? his entire article is based on a twitter feed. He hates his estranged father and loves his motherland. That is why he his highlighting his father’s hatred towards India, infact what you term Salman Taseer’s hatred for India is actually his love for Pakistan. It should not be taken negatively. Aatish Taseer does not highlight single positive point of Pakistan, does not acknowledge the termendous sacrifices of Pakistan Army in war on terror? Nothing he stated embarrased me, rather it is an embarrasaament for himself he could have written a tribute to his father but instead could come up with a negative article, goes to show where his true loyalty stands. If he tours Pakistan as a journalist, comes to Lahore, works with his siblings Shehrbano/Shehryar and carry forward his father’s legacy for a liberal Pakistan, acknowledges the sacrifices Pakistan made in war on terror, probabaly I would have lot more respect for him.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Thank you for your response, which I may add, I really did not expect. What makes you think I admire Aatish Taheer at all? Just because he is half Indian and stays in India? For your information, it may be ignorance on my part, but I had never even heard of him till I read this piece by him. I agree with quite a bit about what he says and have doubts on some points that he has made. Agreement is not admiration. It may also surprise you to know that I had heard of his sister earlier and before I knew of his existence. She wrote about her father and it was carried by one of our newspapers. I distinctly remember I admired her courage for what she wrote. So in that respect I am unlike you, who imply that you dislike the brother because he is Indian and has nothing good to say about your army and that you admire the sister merely because she is Pakistani. My judgement is based solely on what they write not on who writes it.

I can name you at least two dozen authors who not only live in India and are fully Indian by birth whom I have no time for. But that is neither here nor there. I am going by whether I agree with what he writes, admiration has nothing to do with it. My point still remains, you have not refuted, with reasons, anything he has said. You have merely attacked him – what is generally called ‘shooting the messenger’.

I also do not agree that his article is based on a tweeter feed. He has merely mentioned the tweeter feed as a reference and starting point, but thats all it is.

If you note my earlier comment I have quoted another author Shekhar Gupta, of the Indian Express, a friend of the late Taheer, who said that the late Governor was a supporter of better ties with India but was never shy of being frank. I take his tweet on the Indian space technology as just that. Many Indians in fact also ask the same question. Just as many Pakistanis probably question thehuge expenditure on further buclear technology and missiles on the same grounds. Pakistan too has major problems of poverty, slums etc etc. Therefore it is a wrong assumption on your part when you say “…infact what you term Salman Taseer’s hatred for India is actually his love for Pakistan” I have never made any such mention! In fact I have implied that he did not hate India as stated by his son.

Where does he sound credible? I would say a lot of places. I have already mentioned one exmple in my previous post. Other than that I completely agree with this:

“….(in) the political turmoil of the decades after partition. The state failed to perform a single legal transfer of power; coups were commonplace. And yet, in 1980, my father would still have felt that the partition had not been a mistake, for one critical reason: India, for all its democracy and pluralism, was an economic disaster.

Pakistan had better roads, better cars; Pakistani businesses were thriving; its citizens could take foreign currency abroad. Compared with starving, socialist India, they were on much surer ground. So what if India had democracy? It had brought nothing but drought and famine.”

What do you think is false and anti Pakistan here? It is fact.

Just because he has nothing favourable to say about the Pak army does not mean that he has no right to say what he feels about its faults. “In order to realize these objectives, the Pakistani army has led the U.S. in a dance, in which it had to be seen to be fighting the war on terror, but never so much as to actually win it, for its extension meant the continuing flow of American money. All this time the army kept alive a double game, in which some terror was fought and some—such as Laskhar-e-Tayyba’s 2008 attack on Mumbai—actively supported.”

How many others do you want me to quote who have made similar charges?

Sometime back I remember you yourself mentioned that, unlike after the Soviet experience, this time Pakistan has been playing its cards right and looked after its own interests and outcrafted the US at its own game. Isn’t what he has written the same thing except that he is more blunt? The whole world today is talking of Pakistan’s double game isn’t it? You may not agree but the rest are also entitled to their opinion just as you are free to disagree with them.

As I said you have asked me to show you where he has been credible and authentic well I have tried to. But somehow you have still not answered my first question to you…..why do you doubt his credibility and authenticity in what he has written? Please tell me specifically what you find wrong in his article. What you have told me is that you find his nationality and place of residence wrong but you make no effort to rebut what he actually said. Instead you have been comparing siblings, that is not the point of this debate.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Well, Aatish Taseer seems to have touched a raw nerve, not only here but on other Pakistani sites. The vehemence of the reaction leads one to suspect that his analysis hit uncomfortably close to home. Accusations of denial lead to more denial :-) .

In the meantime, another contradiction is rising to the surface: http://bbc.in/rkmw4d

How much more trouble would it take in Xinjiang for the Muslim world, especially Pakistan, to call China an enemy of Islam? Or for China to harden its attitude towards Pakistan, where the training camps lie?

Lots of chickens coming home to roost in lots of places…

These are interesting times indeed, and Indians need do nothing except wait and watch, and hope the old dear (Manmohan Singh) doesn’t give away the store in India’s hour of triumph.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Aatish Taseer’s case is a microcosm of what is going on between India and Pakistan itself – born of the same parent, but divided by an artificial fence, fighting one another. How many like this are there? I am sure there are plenty. I am told of distant Sikh relatives of mine in Swat valley. I have never come across any of them in my life. I wonder which side they are on.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

US aid is about to be cut.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/al-qaeda/8647531/Pakistan-aid-would-be -cut-off-unless-US-gets-access-to-Osama- bin-Ladens-wives.html

Why is Pakistan refusing to hand over Bin Laden’s wives to the US? Are they worried that the truth will come out exposing their military? Because they know who helped them stay in Abbotabad for five or more years in cozy comfort. Or may be the ISI is still coaching them on what to answer.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Sooner than later Pakistan is going to comprehend what Mao said long before the Afghan conflict. USA is a paper tiger and can be defeated inspite of its nuclear armada!

Are Zardari and Kyani the right kind of leaders at the right time. There are many in the world who would like to see USA being booted out of the muslim lands. Enough is enough of the USA strategists creating instability in the region where they first show their made up faces and then their boots!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Well, Aatish Taseer seems to have touched a raw nerve,
Posted by prasadgc
==

The responses are personal attacks on Aatish rather than credible arguments (what a surprise)…

The guy (elder Tasser) was roiling in obsessive anti-India hate until the moment he was shot down like a dog…

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Here is more interesting development. ISI has been funding its Kashmir campaign to influence US law makers for a while:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ar ticle2277294.ece?homepage=true

And many left-liberals in India might also have been under ISI’s influence. I am curious to know who all were in ISI’s payroll to write anti-national articles and raise slogans against India. These guys are on a perpetual and all out war with us. It seems to be fought through every possible way.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world  /us/Laffaire-Fai-US-lawmakers-Indian-li berals-come-under-scrutiny/articleshow/9 301005.cms

So American and British tax payers’ money goes to Pakistan, gets through to the ISI, gets channeled back to those countries to run Pakistan’s shadow campaign and it has been going on for years. It is not that the Americans and British did not know about this. It is just that they have decided to score as many points at Pakistan today as possible to increase the intensity of their campaign. These are a prelude to a war – a big one. Pakistan is going to be the enemy this time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“shame on India whose power drunk elite send failed rockets into space and majority of their people live in slums and below poverty line” Posted by Umairpk

Do you ever tire from exaggerating facts? As per World bank, app. 29% of Indians live below the poverty line (2010 figures) & not a majority, as you claim. Also, the number is expected to go down to 19% by 2016. Now compare this with Pakistan, where currently, 40% live below the poverty line & the figure is expected to reach 60% by 2018.

Also, if India is supposed to be ashamed for spending money on science & technology, how ashamed should your rogue military establishment be, for spending money on this (article referenced) when your people are eating their children to stave off starvation?

http://nyti.ms/pH2KQ0

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
“And many left-liberals in India might also have been under ISI’s influence. I am curious to know who all were in ISI’s payroll to write anti-national articles and raise slogans against India.”

-so much fuss for $23500 from Kashmir American Council, while trillions of $$ of black money from corrupt Indian politicians lies in Swiss Banks. Also the American Israeli Public Affairs committee APAIC and the huge Indian lobby in Washington go about their business as usual. Though I agree the KAC should have registered itself, but since even the US ambassador in Islamabad keeps links with all political parties in Pakistan. What is all the fuss about? What is understandable though is that since already even when a mouse farts in India and is blamed on ISI. It is clear how liberal journalists like Kuldi Nayar, Arundathi Roy are being labeled as ISI agents and traitors just because they exercise their right of freedom of expression.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“It is clear how liberal journalists like Kuldi Nayar, Arundathi Roy are being labeled as ISI agents and traitors just because they exercise their right of freedom of expression.”

Umair, Freedom of RExpression is a convenient tool.

I didn’t see you giving that right to young Taseer when you attacked him personally, not his writings! ;)

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “so much fuss for $23500 from Kashmir American Council,”

That is just tip of the ice-berg. FBI can only go by what is available in the form of credible evidence. You know how things operate with no written documentation. The bottom line is this – ISI has gone out of control.

“while trillions of $$ of black money from corrupt Indian politicians lies in Swiss Banks.”

That might be the case. But they are not using that money to stage coups, assassinations, stealing of sensitive material, buy out politicians and law makers, run negative campaign through media etc.. These are the activities a crime boss would do. And your ISI has become a criminal organization running under the guise of a legal establishment. Those corrupt politicians want all that money for themselves and can go to jail if caught. Who bells the ISI?

“Also the American Israeli Public Affairs committee APAIC and the huge Indian lobby in Washington go about their business as usual.”

There is a difference between lobbying and manipulating the turn of events using subtle and subversive methods. ISI is being accused of the latter. No one has any objections to lobbying.

“Though I agree the KAC should have registered itself, but since even the US ambassador in Islamabad keeps links with all political parties in Pakistan. What is all the fuss about?”

It is the exposure of the ISI’s ugly face that is creeping up everywhere. It is a terrorist organization and nations have the right to curtail its activities and supporters.

“What is understandable though is that since already even when a mouse farts in India and is blamed on ISI.”

And you guys blame RAW for every mouse fart in Pakistan as well. Tell me one thing that RAW has organized and staged that has led to mass level murders inside Pakistan (your favorite claims of Indian consulates in Afghanistan need credible proof). ISI’s involvement in Mumbai attacks is well known. Its sabotage activities are not just affecting Indians alone.

“It is clear how liberal journalists like Kuldi Nayar, Arundathi Roy are being labeled as ISI agents and traitors just because they exercise their right of freedom of expression.”

One never knows. How do you think suicide bombers are recruited? They have some deep seated emotion that is exploited by manipulators. There are activists and journalists who can be manipulated by slowly getting close to them, agreeing with their views, provide them with more stuff that fits their vision of the world and take them over psychologically. I have a strong hunch that A Roy works for the Chinese and Pakistan is benefiting from it. We are not dealing with Pakistan alone here. We have a bigger threat in the form of China. There are people in the world who can sell their mothers for their own selfish goals. They do not become liberals because everything they say is anti-national. Liberals also appreciate good things. A Roy especially has not said one good thing about her nation. If you know her life history – she had a very stressful childhood. She just vents out all her hidden frustration by taking the anti-establishment stance. In your country, people take to suicide bombing. The end results might be different. But the core emotions are the same.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

ISI aptly fits Matt Tabibi’s description about Goldman Sachs:

“A great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:
As for the ISI, being an intelligence organization they, inluding the CIA and others are always upto something. Back in 2003 the American Turkish Council (ATC) was also involved in a nuclear spy ring probe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster-Je nnings_%26_Associates
“Nuclear investigation

According to The Sunday Times and its main source Sibel Edmonds, Brewster Jennings & Associates was used by the CIA to investigate an alleged foreign intelligence ring, including Pakistan’s ISI, which was attempting to recruit moles to obtain U.S. nuclear secrets. A parallel investigation was being run by the FBI. The American Turkish Council put Brewster and Jennings in contact with a number of Turkish agents involved in the ring, but who claimed to be conducting research in alternative energy sources. The Turkish agents were on the verge of hiring Brewster Jennings as consultants when a senior US State Department official tipped them off, leading them to break off the relationship and warn the ISI and others of the front company. The State Department official denies this.”

Tip-off thwarted nuclear spy ring probe
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/us_and_americas/article3257725.ece

Intelligence agencies always act as they have been doing, there are no surprises here, no one is innocent and does not matter if it is Mossad, RAW, CIA or ISI. What needs to be investigated is the role of these lobbying firms which ofcourse include Indians and Israelis trying to shape the policies of US Congress.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

…just to add, if ISI can attempt to recruit moles to obtain US nuclear secrets, no wonder they might possibly had attempted to influence a few congressmen or few journalists of Indian origin.
And that is what intelligence business is about, back in 2010 Mossad killed a Palestinian Hamas leader in Dubai using fake passports fradulently obtain by 33 operatives and illegally entering UAE. CIA is no innocent either.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Dara
Can you really compare veteran journalists of the level of Kuldip Nayar and Arundathi Roy to a minnow like Aatish Taseer who has no established credentials? and besides if Mr. Aatish would have the freedom of expression, i am also all free to criticize him where I disagree.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Being a shill of your military establishment, it’s quite obvious that you will absolve your army & ISI of all their crimes & sins by pointing a finger at others or making some excuse or the other. So, I’m not at all surprised by your response. Anyways, my point was in response to your statement about “India spending money on science while it’s people lived in poverty”, so you can go easy on the rhetoric about the nefarious activities of CIA, Mossad, RAW, MI5 etc etc. It’s already been beaten to death by you, over the years.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Coming back to the recent disclosure about the ISI trying to influence foreign policy on capitol hill, this is another classic example of Pakistan shooting itself in the foot yet again. I’m sure, from now on, even the lawmakers who genuinely supported Pakistan’s position on Kashmir in the past, will back away from it for fear of being labeled as an agent of Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

You simply miss the point. Are only veterans allowed freedom of expression?

Has anyone said you are not free to crticise? They have only rebutted your criticism.

What surprised me most is “IF Mr. Aatish would have the freedom of expression…”. Where is the question of ‘if’? Do you doubt it? Who is to decide whether he has it or not? You or me or the law?

Let’s apply the same yardstick to all.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Dara

After the article which appeared in Express Tribune (Pakistan) in response to Aatish Taseer’s, here is a tit-for-tat response by Shashi Tharoor in The Asian Age:

Delusional liberals
http://www.asianage.com/columnists/delus ional-liberals-031

Just confirms one thing, Indians are proud Pakistan haters and will always attack the Pakistan Army, leaves me wondering why?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I have already seen Tharoor’s article. I would suggest you read it without blinkers. Seems to me you only see things from the point of view of whether the writer loves or hates Pakistan – common sense and logic go out the window. “Just confirms one thing, Indians are proud Pakistan haters and will always attack the Pakistan Army, leaves me wondering why?”

Just making bland statements without backing them up like you have now being doing, is no argument. Will you please quote one line or sentence from Tharoor’s article that shows ‘proud’ hatred pf Pakistan or our first love, the greatest Army on earth. Its like your attack on Taseer, just anti him without quoting substance. How can one carry on such a discussion. I ask you about Freedom of Expression for Taseer – you quote Tharoor!

I guess your reply, if there is one, will now quote someone else, to prove that they hate Pakistan? Is that the purpose of this post or our discussion? That Indians hate Pakistanis while Pakistanis love Indians? Well I think that is a stupid topic for children to be discussing.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Dara
All I know is that now liberals at both ends of the border will be sucked into another war of words, just like twitter is already flooded by responses to Shashi Tharoor’s article. I am just wondering who will respond to his article from Pakistan now?
Just accept the fact Dara, your liberals, politicians, writers etc have nothing good to say about Pakistan? correct me if I am wrong.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

For goodness sake what are we discussing here?

“your liberals, politicians, writers etc have nothing good to say about Pakistan? correct me if I am wrong.”

OK so who or what are Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayyar, Dlileep Padgaonkar and I can carry on as many as you want, 15, 20, 25 how many???

Criticism and hate are not, repeat not, the same thing. You find that so hard to understand that it beats me.

All you want is for people to say Pakistanis are the best, most virtuous, trustworthy, powerful, kind hearted and the best possible neighbours in the world. Well, Umair, I think NOT. Just as Indians are not either.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Well, if someone can wilfully ignore the most powerful argument in Tharoor’s piece, i.e., “there is not and cannot be an ‘Indian threat’ to Pakistan, simply because there is absolutely nothing Pakistan possesses that India wants,” then he is deliberately being dishonest and there is no point in having a conversation with him.

And Tharoor even proves the point, saying “If proof had to be adduced for this no doubt unflattering assessment, it lies in India’s decision at Tashkent in 1966 to give “back” to Pakistan every square inch of territory captured by our brave soldiers in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, including the strategic Haji Pir Pass, all of which is land we claim to be ours. If we do not even insist on retaining what we see as our own territory, held by Pakistan since 1948 but captured fair and square in battle, why on earth would we want anything else from Pakistan?”

Resounding silence on this most telling argument, and a whine about how Indians hate the Pakistani military.

We constantly make the mistake of trying to reason with such people. There is only one language they understand, that of overwhelming power. Fortunately, the world is learning to speak that language to Pakistan, and there are signs that the message is being understood…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I read Shashi Taroor’s article that you quoted. One line caught my attention:

” Pakistani liberal is, after all, a Pakistani before he is a liberal.”

That says it all. He also says, paraphrasing his words, why India would want to conquer Pakistan for anything at all. India wants nothing from Pakistan. Most of what Sashi says reflects my views. There are two types of people – those who are not aware of the reality and as a result react based on their limited perception; and those who know everything and yet deny it. I see most Pakistani intellectuals like yourself belonging to the latter category. Of course the former type prevails all over the world and get manipulated by the latter type. You know the truth. Your pride and contempt blinds your eyes from accepting it, much like Mr. Salman Taseer.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

The lobbygate scandal has effectively neutered known anti-India Congressman Dan Burton: http://bit.ly/oeiFHx

It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy :-) . Association with Pakistan is now the kiss of death in the US political sphere, it would seem.

My reading of the tea leaves says that the Kashmir cause isn’t going to find many international sympathisers from now on. It’s now being seen as “the other side’s cause”, which effectively dooms it. Well, you can’t wage a jihad against the West and then lobby the same West for support. That’s just chutzpah (Ironic that a Jewish term describes this behaviour best!). Westerners are not stupid over the long term. They may be naive and slow, but they eventually learn after a few dozen bomb attacks, kidnappings and executions. The Kashmiris are now associated with terrorists, thanks to the Pakistan connection. Not the best return on the ISI’s PR dollar.

The Indian attitude is also hardening. We’re tired of being put on the defensive by perpetual whingers who will be satisfied by nothing. The boot is now on the other foot. Kashmiris can forget about “self-determination” (that’s what your recent vote was, dummy) and work harder at proving that they deserve Indian citizenship. A lot of money has been poured into that state at the expense of other states, and they could begin to show some gratitude for a change. The international mood would also not be against India settling Kashmir with people from other parts and effectively taming it. Hey, it worked for Tibet, and we all admire the Chinese model of development, don’t we? http://bit.ly/oaXdHv

The Pakistanis are under a nutcracker, and you can see reasonable statements being squeezed out (http://bit.ly/oxDSLa). That’s the way to go.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

This is what Umair’s line of thinking, boils down to: Anyone who criticizes the Pakistani military establishment in any way, shape or form, HATES Pakistan & all Pakistanis!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “Kashmiris can forget about “self-determination””

India will be shooting itself in the foot by giving any concessions in this volatile region. Things are vastly different now than what it was in 1948. Conditions of those years do not apply now. These people are not going to stop with getting what they want. Look at their nation for Muslims – Pakistan was created for Muslims and they have not stopped with that. They have brought the whole South Asia to the brink. They have not stopped waging conflicts. They know well that there is no real enemy around them. Yet they use the excuse of India as the bully to arm themselves beyond what they can bear or afford and have gone from bad to worse. Now they want Kashmir because they are Muslims.

Interestingly Muslims find it hard to live and share the world with non-Muslims in general, especially when the latter is a majority. They fume and fret about their rights, stage violent protests, try to intimidate and induce fear in order to keep their “rights” going. If they are the majority, then others do not count. This is the general trend I am observing. So if they get Kashmir because they are “oppressed” and “suppressed” by a Hindu army, they are not going to stop with that. They will first clean the slate by intimidating and driving off non-Muslims or force them to convert and then look outside for more conflicts. They have nothing constructive to do other than wage wars and conflicts. We already have a Pakistan that was created for them to take care of their interests and it is clear to everyone what they have done with it. The last thing I want to see is to create another Pakistan right next to it. My suggestion is that those who seek “self determination” seek migration to the Islamic paradise called Pakistan and stay there. Kashmir is too strategic an area for us to let go at this time. We are trying to deal with China at the same time. Giving up Kashmir now will bring Karakoram highway branching off too close to New Delhi. Sorry, we just cannot afford it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Recent actions by the US administration (cutting off aid & arrest of Pakistani agents), suggest that American retribution against Pakistan has started. This could get ugly if the Pakistanis don’t get their act together soon.

http://bit.ly/r3bJdZ

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Recent actions by the US administration (cutting off aid & arrest of Pakistani agents), suggest that American retribution against Pakistan has started. This could get ugly if the Pakistanis don’t get their act together soon.

http://bit.ly/r3bJdZ

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Recent events (cutting off aid & arrest of Pakistani agents), suggest that US retribution against Pakistan has started. This could get ugly, if the Pakistanis don’t get their act together soon.

http://bit.ly/r3bJdZ

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Proves my point said above “Interestingly Muslims find it hard to live and share the world with non-Muslims in general, especially when the latter is a majority. They fume and fret about their rights, stage violent protests, try to intimidate and induce fear in order to keep their “rights” going. If they are the majority, then others do not count. This is the general trend I am observing.”:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/ europe/23oslo.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Dara

I wonder, when you try to preach me difference between criticism and hate, that in response to Aatish Taseer’s article why did Shahsi Tharoor chose to attack Pakistan’s liberals. I know through twitter, the reaction in Pakistan. So Shashi Tharoor chose to criticize when he could have expressed hope of better things. Seriously I have completely lost faith that Pakistan and India could ever transform into friendly neighbours putting behing more than half century of hostility and war behind. I think some mild form of limited hostility is the best way forward for both countries as long as two faced snakes are among us who will not miss any opportunity to spew venom against the other side.
Good luck!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh;
“Interestingly Muslims find it hard to live and share the world with non-Muslims in general, especially when the latter is a majority. They fume and fret about their rights, stage violent protests, try to intimidate and induce fear in order to keep their “rights” going. If they are the majority, then others do not count. This is the general trend I am observing.”:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/ europe/23oslo.html?_r=1&hp”

-KPSingh, so much for your despicable anti-muslim thoughts and then you go on to paste a link to the Oslo bombings and trying to involve muslims.
FYI, the Norwegian national arrested in Utoya shooting is member of a far-right group and the bombing and shooting are linked, this is according to the Norway Police.
Thoughts and prayers go out to people of Norway, Islamabad has suffered before what Oslo is going through today. It is times like these when a nation’s resolve is tested.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair: Take it easy buddy, it ain’t KP’s fault. A jihadi group had claimed responsibility for the Oslo bombings, which they later retracted. We’ll find the truth, soon enough.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

BTW, NY times keeps changing the content of the same article, as the story develops. The same link which KP had posted, earlier said that a jihadi group had claimed responsibility.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“The lobbygate scandal has effectively neutered known anti-India Congressman Dan Burton.It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy” Posted by prasadgc

He’s up for re-election, next year & I doubt he’ll win (if he chooses to run). The Pakistanis have unwittingly provided a lot of ammo to the challengers in his constituency.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “so much for your despicable anti-muslim thoughts and then you go on to paste a link to the Oslo bombings and trying to involve muslims”

I am not anti-anyone. In general co-existing with Muslims is like trying to share the same seat in a crowded train. They fight and take all the seats. The others will have to settle for the floor or the roof. And it is that frustration that is building everywhere. Europe has started with burqa ban. Violence doesn’t pay. And the wrong people get punished most of the time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk said:

> Islamabad has suffered before what Oslo is going through today.

Slight difference. Norway doesn’t run terrorist training camps to attack a neighbouring country, so what they’re suffering is entirely undeserved. I should stop before I say something about the Pakistani military, or I’ll be accused of spewing hate and venom!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Mortal: “BTW, NY times keeps changing the content of the same article, as the story develops. The same link which KP had posted, earlier said that a jihadi group had claimed responsibility.”

My apologies. The initial posting did link an Islamic terrorist group. Later on it seems to be from a right wing group. This world is going crazy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair don’t take yourself so seriously. Everyone writes what they want to, not what you want to hear. That you are free to do for yourself. If you could look at the silver lining sometimes and not just worry and fret about your Army and go ballistic when anyone says anything contrary to your rosy picture of it, then maybe you will realise that unless problems are first put on the table they cannot be solved. And I am not preaching just pointing out to you how I see your recent comments.

I have really said what I wanted on this subject and concede that I will not be able to convince you. Some day you may come out of your denial and listen to what the world has to say as to why Pakistan is in trouble these days and who is predominantly responsible – whether the politician, intellectuals, fundamentalists or the Pak Army or Indian liberals and writers and bloggers.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

The Geo-politics are never written in stone and they are extremely fluid in nature that nothing is ever guaranteed.

http://southasiamonitor.org/detail.php?t ype=n&nid=838

In this article,Daniel Twining former member of the State Department’s Policy Planning Staff and Foreign Policy Advisor to Senator John McCain,a doctorate in International Relations from Oxford University believes more and more that “political legitimacy will be the primary currency of international politics in the 21st century”.

Also,the US National Intelligence Council has called India the decisive “swing state” in the international system. India’s posture is thus central to the long-term position of the US and other democracies.
As the US relative decline is inevitable, United states will ensure that the vacuum must be filled by emerging democracies and India plays a pivotal role here.

If there were no India, An authoritarian state like china without any hindrance had become a uni pole in Asia and would have held suzerainty over entire Asian landmass. Whoever controls Asia Completely is bound to become the pre-eminent super Power in perpetuity. United States and Rest of the Democracies will make every attempt to avoid such a scenario. Unless one is completely blinded by hatred, one can see that only India with bigger demographics that china has such potential regarding Asian dynamics to play a balancing role and India must play the role of swing state to carefully nurture its position while being close to West (Europe and US), it must maintain equal,cordial and strong relations (trade and diplomatic relations) with Moscow to avoid Chinese-Russian bonhomie.

More importantly, most US lawmakers believe Intra-Asian trade is going to overtake trade between south-north (or west-east) and a very likely scenario of Indo-Chinese trade larger than between any two nations by 2050. In such a scenario Chinese have their own limitations in patronizing Pakistan. when the profits in trade with India could be used to Arm against India why offend India and lose the money there by losing the opportunity to Arm against India!!

India is also likely to continue to play the role of main arbiter of the third world(Africa primarily) and Emerging world(Brazil,mexico etc). With a clear and emerging battleground of ideas, Its a test for Pakistan’s foreign policy.
With Arab uprising and democratic momentum in rest of the world, more and more states which are plural in nature (Arab world is one of most pluralistic regions) with large minority populations will look at India to know and learn how to manage their highly plural,multicultural societies with tolerance and democracy.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Interestingly, after reading the above posts, I have come to a conclusion that both sides i.e umaripk and we are arguing on completely different structures on what we consider as institutions.
While we are arguing that Pakistan Army is overstepping its turf given by constitution in a democratic polity and has become the real arbiter of the nation of Pakistan and in its belligerence towards US and rest of the world.

Pakistanis like umair seems to see this in completely different perspective, Since India is the enemy (which for him is an universal constant, more on this below) any institution that takes on India even at the cost of exhausting more than quarter of his country’s precious resources is still a legitimate bet.

While India suffers with semi-feudalistic politicians who create their own fiefdoms, people in general are pluralistic,moderate and tolerant an attribute pakistani masses are fast losing and Yes that is our worry.

In fact it is OK to be historial foes in every sense of the word because such adversarial relationship exists between many countries (UK and France) but that relationship always existed on secular structures based on differing cultural ideas. Pakistan by entwining religion as culture (Jinnah’s belief that Hindus and Muslims form different culture) has made it impossible for any reconciliation since at the end, only the entire conversion of India into Muslims would only probably satisfy them and bring down this anti-India venom generated by the policy circles in Pakistani security establishment, hence India as enemy has become universal constant for them (for justification of their large share in country’s assets and its existence, Interestingly when Army says Pakistan’s existential threat as India they are referring as Pakistan Army’s existential threat as India equating Pakistan with Pakistan army, their existential threat borne out of fear that any reconciliation will end their dominance ).

The violence soaked partition events have been used by the security establishment to invent a historical narrative between two religious groups and whatever we Indians might think, the average Pakistani (even liberals like salman taseer) are unlikely to see the partition into a Islamic state and a secular one. They will continue to see it as creation of a Hindu State and an Islamic state. And every little religious incident is utilized to paint India as a Hindu state repressing Muslims and making them second class citizens. while we admittedly are no perfect secular state, every religious incident is taken as a fodder in Pakistan for the propoganda as the vindication of their state’s existence and their justification of suppressing the religious minorities.

Umairpk unfortunately fails to realize the idea of democratic institutions, it is true RAW,CIA and MOSSAD have been bribing american lawmakers into making their voice heard in more strong terms, but they have not been recruiting jihadis, running training camps and perpetrating bombs and terror attacks across the world.

Had any Pakistani diplomat bribed any US lawmaker into making concessions for pakistani interests, he would have escaped with diplomatic immunity and Intellgence agencies would themselves have escaped by quid pro quo actions by other party. (US excuses RAW agents in return for India excusing CIA agents in India) but when ISI overstepped its constitutional prerogatives and conducted terror training camps it has effectively become a terrorist organization it shot itself in the foot. This is something umairpk will be unable to understand due to his limited respect for democratic principles and democratic institutions with defined legislative space.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Sensiblepatriot said:

> only the entire conversion of India into Muslims would [...] probably satisfy them

You really think so? Just a fortnight ago, a PPP politician (Zulfiqar Mirza) made comments against Urdu-speaking people (i.e., the mohajjirs from India), which ignited a furore. Surely 1.2 billion mohajjirs would be a much bigger threat!

Once religious differences are removed, ethnic differences come to the fore. That’s the tragedy of Pakistan and the ultimate rebuttal to the Two-Nation Theory. Pakistan is itself at least five ethnic nations, since the Hindu religious nation was split off through partition. I have come to believe these are people who cannot live with themselves, let alone other people.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

prasadgc:”You really think so?”

of course No! :-) , It was commentary on pakistan policy neurosis through fatalistic humor, but they will surely be “half-satisfied”, from dhimmis or non-believers we will at least then become half-muslim just like Pakistanis are for Arabs.
This Pakistan polity’s neurosis affects so deep that they are in denial and afflicts their mental state so much that they refuse to address the most urgent problems facing the country.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/23/the-eleph ant-in-the-room.html
The state borne out of various mental aspects(hatred-insecurity-inferiority complex-delusions-victimization-lack of leaders-lack of success symbols) will be unable to identify the difference between “a state” and “a state institution” which we can see from umair, he does not realize that one can be proud of one’s country but one has to differentiate between say a corrupt Indian government and India. I am sure a North Korean suffers from same mentality but at least a Pakistani has the opportunity to work through Internet and get awakened unlike a north-Korean.

Similarly a Pakistani citizen should differentiate between Pakistani Security establishment with Pakistan as a nation. Only then they will know where to go from here.

Admittedly, I was the one who believed Kashmir problem was entirely the creation of Pakistan, but having read various sources I realized Indian governments culpability in Kashmir problem acquiring such huge dimensions (rigged elections in 1989) and the Indian Army’s lackluster and thoroughly unprofessional behavior in the initial years of insurgency so much so that it became a pawn and played itself into a trap that was set by Pakistan’s ISI.

I remember the case of SriLanka which was seen nothing but a repressive state by the west. Not surprsingly just as the Kashmiri diaspora succeeded in creating an image of repressive India, the overseas Srilankan Tamils (and admittedly Indian Tamils) were able to create such image for SriLanka (unfortunately the only image for them). It too was isolated and its nation afflicted with same third world maladies I described above. But a single successful symbol of world cup win has changed image of SriLanka (its team consists of buddhists,hindus,christians and is a microcosm of lankan society) and created a world of difference to their confidence and attitude that Srilanka is the only country in south Asia which has developed country indicators be it literacy, healthcare or percapita incomes.
Although I do not concur with the Srilankan Army’s brutal repression of Tamils in LTTE dominant areas during the final days of the assault to Liquidation the group, I am seeing a more accomodative and bruised country coming to terms with other ethnic groups.
Pakistan needs such success symbols other than the sick and obsessed Army.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

@Umairpk

I named most of the Indian crowd on this blog as the ‘mob’!
An australian named them haenas. They are called in my world Rattan-fänger, they are looking for any dirt in the media against the muslims or Pakistanis, they are quick to paste the label on this blog. May I recall that it was the Norweigen newspaper which reprinted the caricature of the prophet after it was printed in the Danish paper. These characters are rat-catcher who induce racial hatred in the press without realising that they are putting the radical rightists on the wrong path. The Govt. ofcourse ignores these groups who are antimigration, and allows migrants into the country to do the menial jobs which the natives do not loke to perform. This is the time for the humanity to take a pause and protest for the senseless murder of teenagers and show compassion for the families of those who perished for no cause or purpose. Let us recall that it was the Norwegen committee which nominated the son of the kenyan for a nobel prize, who is until now invoved in two wars against muslims and is making use of drones in Afghanistan and Pakistab as well as Yemen.
The casualties include innocent children and women.

Rex Minor

PS sorry for the intervention.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

kpsingh01:”Interestingly Muslims find it hard to live and share the world with non-Muslims in general, especially when the latter is a majority. They fume and fret about their rights, stage violent protests, try to intimidate and induce fear in order to keep their “rights” going. If they are the majority, then others do not count. This is the general trend I am observing.”

Unfortunately I dont agree with you on this KP, the Indonesia and Turkey are prime examples which are strongly secular in their conduct. The southern African muslim nations too do not display such attitudes.

With the risk of being labelled an anti-american, the truth is America in order to counter the growing socialist threat from USSR during cold war years had steadfastly supported various Islamic movements so much that almost now every Islamist government in Iran, Pakistan, Egypt were once allies of America and foes of USSR. America in its obsession to see USSR defeated made every attempt to topple Secular and popular regimes be in Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan just because they were guilty of admiring Soviet policies and US went on to support Saudi regime even though its hardcore Islamist in nature. The current state of Muslim states is such that (with the exceptions i mentioned above) secular and moderate Muslims have either been marginalized, ran away, hunted,jailed, executed ,tortured or made toothless that almost no secular Muslim groups exist in large part of the Muslim world.
http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Game-Unleas h-Fundamentalist-American/dp/0805081372

The book says it all, we can read the review and can get a gist of it.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

sensiblepatriot: “the Indonesia and Turkey are prime examples which are strongly secular in their conduct. The southern African muslim nations too do not display such attitudes.”

I do not want to stretch this into a religious war here. Indonesia, Turkey etc are Muslim majority countries with small percentage of non-Muslims. Ethnically the people of each country is not very diverse. In Malaysia, they had the Bhumiputra problem. So long as minorities adjust and not mess with the majority, all is well in these countries. For example, the code of conduct is laid out by Islamic/Arab tradition. A non-Muslim simply cannot do something that can go against the Islamic code. So long as that happens, things are fine and secularism prevails. Aceh province in Indonesia is notorious for militant and conservative Islam. In the other parts of Indonesia, though they are Muslims, they mostly follow the pre-Islamic Buddhist system. Naipaul has written a book,”Among the believers” where he covers the pesantran system in Indonesia, built on top of the Buddhist infrastructure. He also goes to Iran, Malaysia and Pakistan. The bottom line is this – code of conduct, especially when it comes to women, is rigid. If anyone violates that, they will have to run for their lives. For example, a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man and living in those “secular” nations. If you are a minority in those countries, you are, for all practical purposes, living like a Muslim and do not ask for trouble. That’s all right for them. My point is that if they are in a similar situation, they protest, stage campaigns and keep their rights protected through intimidation. And they live in this fear induced mindset in countries where they are a minority. The general message is “don’t mess with us and our methods and we won’t mess with you.” But in non-Muslim majority countries, they demand their rights and will fight to the hilt. In India, the Shao Bano case is a classic example. The same with “oppression” in Kashmir. But if they slaughter non-Muslims and lower grade Muslims like Bengalis, they get medals. Nothing satisfies them. Even after getting a country of their own, they have spent all the energy fighting India. In Europe and other places, friction is building. It did not so far because those who went there were liberal people and were not orthodox Muslims. Now there is migration from Northern Africa, Middle East etc, which is changing the demography in Europe which is facing an aging population and declining growth. They are violent people too. Unlike us, they will not appease their minorities. Either they blend in or will face their skin heads. Look at how a couple of Bubbas from Australia fought with us recently for not confirming to their codes of conduct. They have not come across the population we are familiar with. Not yet. Then there will be many sharing my view. I am not a Hindu. But my view is similar to the Hindus regarding Muslims in the sub-continent and elsewhere. This is an emotional topic. Therefore let me end it here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

As a curious student of history. I was able to frame certain opinions about cultural transformation of various religions during different times of history and I see their respective cultural traits shaped by political, Geographical and reformist movements rather than just through literal interpretations of the book.

For a neutral and rational observer of religious texts one wonders why a more broader and tolerant Asiatic faiths whose books talk of good conduct of every Human, penance or books whose Gods pervade bigger spaces of univese are now belittled before abrahamic faiths whose purpose of God initially seems to show the blessed one some piece of promised land.

The reasons are both Geographic and historical.
One idea that cropped out of the understanding of abrahamic civilization is that Arahamic tribes who were persecuted time and again by egyptians, romans and other pagan religions of the time continually for hundreds of years had made psychological belief of “their God” stronger. The initial abrahamic tribes came closer to extinction many times due to persecution from the then pagan empires and from hard climates but by quirk or fate they survived, the fact they survived has only invigorated their belief even more in “their God”. Since every survival is documented, every act of survival added mythic proportions to their psyche.

While religions evoled out of existing cultures in India,China and Roman states. This was a unique case where culture and cultural ideas evolved over Religious books.
Although Indic,chinese and Roman religions fought about ideas on culture and religion they never gave it a theological tinge to the Ideas but left them to the succeeeding generations.

Abrahamic religions in retrospect claimed on God’s will on what survived or what succeeded. Just as pakistan disowned its 1000 year culture with India and left with nothing but religion. Abrahamic faith once it left Egypt was devoid of culture and its only source of inspiration were survival through ages which it found in its books.

In nature only the species which are mean,closed groups and ultra sensitive for survival succeed.Something called the survival of the fittest. Its not surprising that nominally religious and disparate pagan religions were overwhelmed in the process by the people of the book.

The second reason is Geographical, the religions which were born in desert sands of Egypt and middle east have always been thorougly stricter in religious codes of conduct than highly natural resource blessed Indian, Chinese or Roman Empires. The existence of large natural resources for survival discounted the need for all supreme God and in their idea humans can too become Gods (Roman Gods). The chinese too were flooded with adequate resources that their religion doesn’t even have a God (only heaven). Thats the reason we pray Mountains, Forests, Water which are more important than unseen God.

The western civilization could reform itself through Renaissance movements only by completely disowning their theological Abrahamic past (French Revolution) since it became difficult to create a more tolerant,rational and progressive culture through literal reading of Holy texts. But the cultural trait cannot go away simply by disowning a book, that cultural trait shaped by hundreds of years of experience.

The abrahamic faiths were neverthless reformist to the existing religins of the day, more accomodating, less ritualistic, more liberal (than compared to tribalised and materialistic display of religions which existed in that period). These faiths were like today’s liberal fundementalists in those days!!! The abrahamic faith were although relatively rationalistic to other religions during that period, abrahamic faiths were nevertheless brutal in their treatmess and less tolerant to other faiths in those times.

Islamic civilzation too with various groups mingled into its religion over the centuries and had become mystic and tolerant by late 1800′s that one may be surprised to see present middle east with what it was in early 20th century.

Just like pagan cultures have their own fault lines of squabbling, ritualism, back stabbing,self destruction and failing to show a united front to common enemy. The abrahamic cultures faultline lies in steadfast and unrelenting beliefs (we seen in the case of Australians) that brought enough misery through Fascism, communism ,Eugenics (Racism) and unhindered capitalism.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Its not just a border issue, it is security for the whole world that is at stake.
News article mentions:
“But apart from the issue of whether Pakistan can really stand up to the United States is the question of whether Islamabad can afford to pull back from the Afghan border for its own sake.”
Pakistan has never conceded to the terrorists, it can take back the border anytime. I believe they are quite capable to fight even with limited resources. This then becomes difficult for the armed forces to plan sector prioritization. Indirectly Pakistan is fighting for world peace, what is the world doing?

Posted by kritik1 | Report as abusive
 

Even after trillions of accusations, ISI remains cool.

Posted by kritik1 | Report as abusive
 

“Even after trillions of accusations, ISI remains cool.”

Have you seen criminals ever admitting to their crimes? Once the mind is criminalized, there is no going back. Individual criminals can at least be put behind bars permanently or put away (like OBL). Establishments run by criminal minds? That’s another story. Wars are needed to end their reign. Criminals invite cops on their own. They cannot remain quiet. So the ISI will meet its match soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“Pakistan has never conceded to the terrorists”

Al Capone never conceded to gangsters either. Because he was running them. Only fools will make mafia dons as their allies to catch petty criminals. And it is clear for all to see.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Kritik1 said:

> Pakistan is fighting for world peace

Bet you wrote that with a straight face. Reminds me of the Vietnam-era statement: “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” In Pakistan, horror and farce are coming together in similar fashion. Some way to fight for peace!

The ISI have not given up their deadly agenda. They have not learnt that trying to light a fire burns down one’s own house. They’re just changing their incendiary chemicals and hoping for a different outcome the next time. Will the idiots never learn?

Their strategy now is to use only Indian citizens (i.e., disaffected Indian Muslim youth) to attack India. No more embarrassment of having Pakistani citizens like Ajmal Qasab captured. Plausible deniability is the name of the game. The Indian Mujahideen is now being trained in Baluchistan (http://bit.ly/bJIjQs). (So the Pakistanis are right – some mischief is happening in Baluchistan all right, but not it’s not of the RAW variety.)

Meanwhile, Pakistan has already lost the real war with India: http://bit.ly/qQOQpr . India can surely weather a few bombs a year. It’s a perverse indicator of continued progress, because it shows that someone is burning with jealousy.

When the Pakistanis realise that the only way forward is to sign a reciprocal agreement with India, with each country giving up claims to territory on the other side of the LoC, that’s when they’ll turn the corner. Till then, their downslide will continue. The US is turning the screws, the Chinese continue to provide their worthless blah-blah verbal support, power cuts and prices increase, and the country goes further into the morass. It’s a pity in a way, but Indians can afford to wait and watch. The longer we wait, the worse it gets for Pakistan. At what point will they finally break and admit defeat?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Even after trillions of accusations, ISI remains cool.

Posted by kritik1
-

That was a very funny comment.

ISI is a terrorist organization, that has masqueraded using the trappings of a country. There is no country, but only the terrorists organization called ISI.

“ISI remaining cool” means “Pakistan” burning, splintering into pieces…

Karachi’s burning will spread and engulf…the “cool” ISI, PA terrorists are going to get caught soon in the hellfire from internal anarchy.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “Pakistan has already lost the real war with India”

First thing is for Pakistanis to stop comparing themselves with India. This stems from their superiority complex that has driven them to match with India at the expense of their own welfare. And others need to stop calling India and Pakistan as rivals. May be in a cricket match, one can have rivalry. India is a huge nation that compares with China and for rivalry that is the country that must be looked at. I do not see Pakistanis calling themselves as rivals of China, when that country started out poor sixty odd years ago as well. Pakistan cannot match India in everything. India’s sheer size makes its average come out low. But when that average goes up, it carries a lot of momentum with it. Small countries have to try matching themselves with small countries similar to themselves. I wonder why Pakistanis are not looking at Iran to their West or Egypt or Turkey to do their numbers.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:”Pakistan has already lost the real war with India”.

They don’t believe this Ganesh and that is because their sources are somewhere. They read somethings like these and believe they are much much better being in pakistan.

http://www.chowk.com/RiazHaq/iLogs/How-L ong-Can-You-Compare-India-and-Pakistan

The posts are written by a moron called Riaz Haq who himself does not reside in Pakistan to see what is happening. He regularly quotes outdated India’s and pakistani figures to make them look good. He even doesn’t know the simple truth that while in India Poverty is over reported it is under reported in Pakistan by honour and Ghairat brigade. These days you won’t see these figures because world bank has started taking pakistan’s figures lightly and not even nationalistic pakistanis want to argue on the poverty statistics with India. His selective application of Statistics is legendary in blog circles.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Umair “so much fuss for $23500 from Kashmir American Council, while trillions of $$ of black money from corrupt Indian politicians lies in Swiss Banks.”

- Care to show me evidence that there’s trillions (really??) lying in Swiss Banks. In any event, I am sure you are just being obtuse and understand the difference between corruption on a personal level by an individual politician and an attempt by a foreign intelligence agency to subvert the policies of the United States by influencing the democratic process.

Umair, “Also the American Israeli Public Affairs committee APAIC and the huge Indian lobby in Washington go about their business as usual.”

AIPAC and that huge Indian lobby (which is rather disorganized actually) are comprised of American citizens using donations from American citizens to influence American politicians. KAC was an ISID front. There’s quite a difference. Imagine finding out that the CIA was funding the PPP to influence Pakistan’s policies on China.

Umair: “Though I agree the KAC should have registered itself, but since even the US ambassador in Islamabad keeps links with all political parties in Pakistan. ”

There’s a massive difference between a diplomat engaging influential figures in their host country and an individual covertly attempting to subvert national policy by influencing politicians with foreign money. When a Pakistani is talking to the US ambassador, he/she knows who he/she is talking and what their agenda is. When somebody was talking to the KAC, they assumed they were talking to American citizens with a legitimate concern for Kashmir, not the front organization of a foreign government.

Umair: “What is all the fuss about?”

The fuss is about laws being broken. And lest you claim favoritism, the US authorities have also pursued agents who have acted similarly for other governments (Israel, China, etc.).

Umair: “What is understandable though is that since already even when a mouse farts in India and is blamed on ISI.”

That’s rich. Coming from a guy who not too long ago would have suggested that the Pakistani Taliban were funded by India.

Unfortunately for you, the Indians often have evidence which can usually be corroborated by evidence from the West’s own intelligence sources.

Umair: It is clear how liberal journalists like Kuldi Nayar, Arundathi Roy are being labeled as ISI agents and traitors just because they exercise their right of freedom of expression.

Ironically, you have suggested that the younger Tasreer was a bastard and a traitor to his roots. And even more ironically, for all the criticism of these journalists, they aren’t ending up dead, like some recent journalists in Pakistan that we know of.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

What I find hilarious is that Dan Burton is carrying the Pakistan and Kashmir banners. Their case is truly sunk if all hopes rest on him.

This is the guy who tore a strip off Clinton for his infidelity while fathering a bastard during an affair with another woman. He then went on to marry his wife’s nurse after she passed away. He was also the only member of the US Congress to vote against a bill banning free plane trips and gifts from lobbyists. And he once suggested that the US should place gunboats off the coast of …. landlocked Bolivia and strafe the drug fields there.

If that’s the guy carrying the Pakistani banner, then clearly the ISI is also incompetent at bribing US politicians.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

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