That anyone should even suggest that there can be one Zimbabwean black or white would freely choose to have Mugabe given what he has done and continues to do is an insult. If you do not see that then, yes the only “facts and arguments” you and me can trade is you insulting my fellow Zimbabweans black and white and me. I will reply and in my own way tell you that you are not such a smart guy yourself and prove it! So the ball is once again in my court. QED.

Grant me please, a little leeway to be direct in saying it may be unproductive for us to continue our ‘chat’ unless we can both agree to refer to absent third parties in civil terms. I do hope we might overcome this ‘wee’ obstacle.

For example I am unwilling to respond to your comment immediately above, because (again for example), your refer to – Ian Smith and to Sir Garfield Todd but by contrast, you refer to Mugabe and to Mugabe thugs.

You refer to whites and to black civilians which mean little to me in a discussion about intra-country and inter-country matters.

In conversations between us please allow me to refer to people in-terms of the nation, country, or continental origin. That way I/we might avoid nonsense of reducing person/people to a mere colour and avoid mixing of colours with ethnicity; as in – black, white and Asian, for example – British/English, Asian, Chinese, black.

By black I guess you mean of African ethnicity and by white of European ethnicity.

If you think we are able to continue a conversation, in order to make constructive headway, please, let me invite you to refer back to my posting at 11:40 am GMT (today, 4 July) and invite you to continue by replying as clearly and directly as you are able, to the questions I asked for clarification of your earlier posting.

Regards
Hubert

Well was that a lesson in English, on how to present ones “facts and arguments”! You do have the command of the Queen’s language – I will be the first to admit that I do not. What a pity you do not have the facts and arguments to match.

Are you telling me then that there are millions of Zimbabweans who want Mugabe in power and things to stay as there are- super-hype inflation, the worst the world has ever seen, no food in the shops, weeks on end without water and/or electricity, etc? And to live is constant fear of being brutalised. Life expectance has dropped from 60 years in 1980 to 34 years in 2006 and today it is probably 27 years or even lower. And you, Hubert, want to tell me and anyone else who might happen to be reading this, some one would freely choose to have such a life!

Your line of thinking, your facts and arguments, is not new. Throughout the years of slave trade and then during colonial rule many learned and very articulate individuals justified slavery and colonial oppression on the grounds that “Africans do not feel the pain and hardship. No, not in the same way whites and other more delicate races do!”

There are some whites still in Zimbabwe, white Zimbabweans, who are being picked on by Mugabe’s thugs. Or do you think because they lived in Africa, they must have a thick skin and so they do not feel anything.

By the way Britain has a lot more than a moral obligation to assist Zimbabwe today, it is duty bound.
1) Zimbabwe was a British Colony and like all the other of her colonies Zimbabwe wealth, blood and sweat contributed to British prosperity.
2) If Britain had been firm with Ian Smith and supported the moderate whites led by the late Sir Garfield Todd Zimbabwe will have turnout differently. So by supporting a hardened white racists Britain allowed extreme Black Nationalist like Mugabe to emerge.
3) Mugabe has always been a ruthless and heartless tyrant; he instructed his freedom fighters to deliberately target innocent white civilians during the civil war, for example, just as thugs have targeting thousands of equally innocent black civilians since 1980. After independence Britain over compensated for their initial error by showering Mugabe with praise, the British government even had him knighted. Some knight in shinning armour!

Hubert, was it you who read Mugabe’s knighthood citation? With your command of “facts and arguments” man you were born for such a role!

Then with understanding and mutual respect we each arrive at successively, better informed conclusions that may be respected, each in its own right.

Unfortunately, I am not sufficiently well read to be clear without being ‘long-winded’ so I am left to do my best to be clear.

Wilbert, you say and ask -

you speak for yourself and fellow brutalised Zimbabweans

I [You] know millions of my[your] fellow country men [Zimbabweans], women and children want a regime change in Zimbabwe.

What else do you[me, Hubert] want us to do to convince you[Hubert] that it is not the British, Americans or anyone else but US who desperately want regime change in Zimbabwe?

I reply Wilbert, as follows -

• I am pleased we are reading and discussing each others views and our bases for our views.

• My points are directed at my own actions and to present my views and facts to encourage my fellow UK citizens to consider the matter too.

• I seek to speak to my (UK) Government to do my tiny bit as a citizen in the process of Government decision making.

• It is your right and duty or choice to show courage to say as you see fit to those of your choosing.

• It is your right and duty or choice to exercise courage and act with fortitude to effect changes
at take ownership of the outcome with individual and national pride.

• If you need my acceptance of your views and wishes for yourself and your country (Zimbabwe) it is for you to present your facts, views and arguments in hope or endeavour to persuade me. The alternative is for you to feel either that you have a right to my sympathy, support and understanding.

• You imply that millions of Zimbabweans what Government/political change in Zimbabwe,if an overwhelming proportion of the population wants change, change will inevitably occur in time in Zimbabwe as has happened in all human societies since time immemorial. You may well know the millios who call for change but do you also know how many Zimbabweans prefer no change?

Zimbabwe of course, lived through over a century of even more brutal racial abuse of ethnic-Africans by ethnic-Europeans. Their may be a need to show a readiness to show deference and patience under ethnic-African leadership to counter-balance submission under ethnic-European segregation and exploitation.

As mentioned before, I speak as an ethnic-African citizen and resident of the UK, who, in the interest of the standing of Africa and Africans, wants to see Africa nations act in their own interest and be willing to pay themselves, for the human cost of social, economic and spiritual developments.

Personally, I no longer wish for Africa and Africans to imitate Europe and European attitudes, but rather to live and develop in a manner and at a rate determined by Africans in the circumstances of Africa. By such Africa with command respect and relate and trade with the rest of the world on the basis of mutual respect – not as fake imitations.

For my part for example, as you may already understand, though ethnically African, apart from inevitable but faded genetic strands, I am a clone of British-European life my way of history; my ancestors having been exported to the West Indies.

Now Wilbert, I ask of you, rather than chastise me or be abrupt with me for my views, please instead seek to present your views, facts and arguments so that you might persuade those who read you, please.

Regards,
Hubert.

I am a Zimbabwean and I know millions of my fellow country men, women and children want a regime change in Zimbabwe. We have wanted it for along time. As I said before the country’s media is tightly controlled by Mugabe so the people have no chance to have their voices heard. People have tried to hold peaceful demonstrations and the regimes has used brutal force to stop all but party approved gathering. We have tried regime change using the ballot but that avenue too was slammed shut in our faces. Innocent Zimbabweans have been murdered for no other reason other than that the dared exercise their right to vote. Mugabe’s campaign of terror and murder is still going on right now because he wants the people to accept him as president!

Hubert, please tell me and my fellow brutalised Zimbabweans: What else do you want us to do to convince you that it is not the British, Americans or anyone else but US who desperately want regime change in Zimbabwe?

The UK was literally begged for US assistance and later for the Americans to join in the fight during the Second World War. Many Commonwealth countries joined in. I knew an old man who fought in that Great War on the side of the Allies. Was that just outsiders poking their big noses in British – Germany affairs? Hitler and Mugabe are two peas out of the same pod- the later even sports the barb Hitler moustache. God, some people can really be narrow, thick and slow – when it suits them!

The actions and sanctions against the Apartheid government were right and morally justified….

As you appear to write with authority, please (including any other knowledgeable reader) inform discussion with answers to the following questions as you can,

Which Apartheid government?

What was done to reform the ownership of (say ill-gotten)economic acquisitions under Apartheid?

Who within the Apartheid country/countries to which you refer, had the courage to take up arms in Africa, against the morally heinous Apartheid ethnic-European regime(s)?

When would did the reign of ethnic-European racial-supremacist oppression (which morphed into Apartheid begin?

Regards,
Hubert

My opinion is that action upon the assessment as to whether or not Zimbabwe is being governed, is a matter for Zimbabweans. As a citizen and resident in the UK I say, it is not my Government’s place to incite government change in Zimbabwe nor encourage and incite political strife in Zimbabwe.

If the UK Government considers that Zimbabwe is not acting according our Government’s satisfaction or pleasure, I say unequivocally, Wilbert, let our Government first stop is appalling killing and destruction overseas, before deigning the preach good behaviour to Zimbabwe or any other country.

I contend Wilbert, that UK citizens share joint burden/responsibility for the conduct of our Government.

By exchanging views and reasoning to gain understanding of alternative views seems to me a path to enhance understandign – and perhaps wisdom.

Regards.

Yes you last contribution has made things as clear as mud! What I tried to make you understand is what Mugabe has been doing should be condemned not because it does not meet the West or the British’s standards of democratic value. It should be condemned because it is evil, period.

You are sold on Mugabe’s twisted logic that it is the West who want regime change in Zimbabwe whilst he continoues to refuse the people of Zimbabwe a free vote to decide the matter. Mugabe has been beating and killing people in Zimbabwe recently because they voted for the wrong person. You, Hubert, think this is proof of “forced democracy”. Amazing, simply amazing!

By my comment, I seek balance and even-handedness. ‘Not western balance nor eastern balance’, simply a single standard by which anyone who commits alleged misdemeanour, might be judge; whether the person is US President, UK Prime minister, or Zimbabwean President. Indeed whether of the west, east north or south.

Many years ago as a long term member of the British Army I was ready to do my bit to defend, I repeat, defend, human freedoms, and in particular the freedom of UK citizens. I would have been disappointed to have been party to wanton, pre-emptive mass killing of people, on the back of what many now consider to have been political spin and possibly lies.

Democracy is what we in the UK and elsewhere term our form of governmental politics at this time in UK evolution – it has not always been so. My personal politics, like my religion is for me as is yours for you. You would perhaps not welcome an attempt by me to force change upon you. The problem as I see, is not democracy, but forced democracy.

By this token it would seem unreasonable, by brutal misuse of arms, our political tyrants (such as Premier Tony Blair or as President George Bush ) to seek to force-feed our principles to our human cousins in other political, social and developmental domains.

I hope this retry has help to make clear my view on this point, Wilbert.

Regards