Changing China
Giant on the move
Who’s top of the medals table?
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Americans looking at the medals table to the right of this blog, or on the official Games website, might be surprised to see the host country topping the chart with 39 gold medals and 68 in total.
The New York Times website, meanwhile, has the United States on top with a chart-leading 73 medals in total, 23 of them gold.
We at Reuters rank nations by the number of golds. It’s the way the IOC does it and, according to Reuters sports editor Paul Radford, it’s the way that makes most sense.
Here’s what Paul had to say when I asked him about it:
Reuters serves international clients across the whole world and most of them want their medals tables prioritised by gold medals. It seems that it is mainly North America which takes a different attitude and where the total number of medals is the criterion used.
I can’t see the logic of the total medals system at all. That means giving the same value to a bronze medal as you would to a gold. If you look at the expression on athletes’ faces as they just finish second or third, it’s often one of disappointment that they did not get gold and the chance to call themselves Olympic champions; it’s less often delight at being a silver or bronze medallist unless they started as rank outsiders.
Some people say the silver medallist is the first of the losers. I think that’s a bit harsh personally but you can take the point. Look at it another way. If Michael Phelps had won six golds and two silvers, would anyone have described that as a greater achievement than Mark Spitz’s seven-gold medal haul? The answer is clearly not.
So we’ll stick to the logical order of running our table in gold medals order. If that puts China first and the United States second, then so be it. Our aim is to be objective and favour no nation above any other.
Do you agree? Let us know in the comments.
PHOTO: A combination photo shows Michael Phelps of the U.S. holding each of his eight gold medals in the swimming competition at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games. REUTERS/Staff
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Jeff from NY -1. you are an a$$ for saying German invasion brought beer to Qingdao. it’s a f***ing invasion2. Check your freaking facts. Yes US is allie, but we take full credit for booting Japanese from mainland China so cross out that “from China” phrase3. really, stop thinking you know OH SO MUCH about China just because you travelled there. You stink of groundless condescension.We will see where the two countries are in 25 years.
wow–great to see people making such a big deal out of nothing. Anyone saying that US media has changed from gold to overall medal count rankings, please provide proof–according to archive.org, nbc and yahoo sports both still used the overall medal count in Athens, when we won the gold medal count as well.Other authoritarian countries under the facade of Communism also dominated the Olympics when they were at their peak as well, especially when they hosted the Games–China is no different in this regard. The US has been the only steady winner or near winner of Olympic Gold and overall medal counts since the modern games began. How’s that for Democracy?
To all the Chinese,Listen, it’s fun to rip each other (it’s part of sports enthusiasm), but let me be very clear here. The Chinese have put on a fantastic Olympics and the Chinese athletes will be strong for years and years to come. I have indeed traveled around China and find much of your energy similar to that of Americans. We can get back to bashing each other (as the Aussies and the Brits do), but the Chinese are a great people and here at these Olympics they have shown what they can do when they work together. It’s so much better for everyone that today Chinese are interacting with the world and not isolated as they were under Mao. Welcome to the party (no, not the CCP, the international party).
oh man,authoritarian and Communism ,aren’t they cold war wording? man,u’re way out of date.for the democracy thing,how about the so-called largest democracy-india?How’s that for Democracy?and btw, u’re way too far away from the topic.
“Chinese,”Hey, didn’t you make a prediction about the women’s beach volleyball final? Did you watch the game? Pretty good. The Americans won the gold medal, but the Chinese played tough. One of the Chinese women scored some beautiful serving aces.
Jeffrey in New York,this time, how is ur qingdao beer? why u people mention mao at all, that’s like forever ago.china is open and will always stay that way.for one thing, the cpc takes credit for that!don’t talk like a host:welcome to the party…….this time, jeffrey, welcome to china, and i will buy u a qingdao beer and bring along ur german friends, if u don’t mind.and one more thing:china is promoting the globlizaion process,we wanna be connected with other peoples. in the opening ceremony, we said that loud and clear:peace and harmony???;we’re happy to receive friends from faraway(?????????????.
“Chinese,”These bottles of Tsingtao beer taste pretty good right now, especially after the women’s beach volleyball gold. And thanks for the offer to buy me a round of drinks. Hey, I agree with you that the complete nightmare of the Cultural Revolution is long in the past now. And a damn good thing too. I’m sure you’ve been to the Summer Palace in Beijing, right? I remember walking by a wall on top of the main hill where all the Buddha faces had been hammered off by fanatical Chinese back during the Cultural Revolution, when so much of China’s great history was destroyed by its own people. I sure as hell hope you guys don’t have to go through that kind of madness again. I think you can agree with me on that, right?About Qingdao, the city. I was surprised to find so many buildings still standing that had been built by the Germans when that section of China was under their control. German architecture on the coast of China. Strange.
JeffreyIf you have ever been hurt at your leg,do you cut out it?that’s why also some german house in QingDao, and why China’s national anthem also use the ‘The most dangerous time’.
According to French TV Britain is more successful at these games than France because the UK is four countries and France is only one! That should make a real mess of the medals table!
re: French TVPopulation of France = 64.4mPopulation of UK = 60.5mJust don’t get me started!(And yes, Team GB should be called Team UK as N Ireland is part of it)
Jeff in New York -Talking about destruction of cultural artifacts…. where are the aboriginal Indian culture now in American society today?And oh, kindly inform the audience on this board any architectural style that is COMPLETELY United States and not under Anglo-Saxon influence. United States were a bunch of European colonies until 1776, as the name of your country aptly suggest.You sure as hell are knowledgeable about Chinese culture/history (and know to hit it where it hurts). But don’t forget – There are plenty of dirty laundries in every country (which would make the debate endless).Unfortunately, your education and informed state have not given you a sophisticated approach to deal with a different culture, but enabled you to develop an arrogant sense of superiority. Of all the lovely New Yorkers I’ve met, whose understanding and appreciation of differences I admire, you sure are an outlier. You are entitled to all of your attitudes and condescension, but kindly refrain from parading your shallowness on Reuters.com, which by the way, is international.
Rui,Let me repeat. I ADMIRE the Chinese. So why are you so belligerent right now? I only said that I’ve seen the results of the madness of the Cultural Revolution and have talked to many Chinese IN China about those times. There’s no question that China is a far different place today — amazingly so. I agree that it’s not worth talking about today. China is no longer a Communist country. In my view, China is a capitalist country led by a single party, with the Politburo acting similarly to the ancient ruling dynasties with the aid of the Mandarins.Many of my remarks above are about SPORTS RIVALRY. One problem that Chinese do have is that they’re far too sensitive about these matters. Americans, Brits, and Aussies beat on each other all the time about sports; it’s normal. Chinese need to learn to roll with the punches.American culture is a strange hybrid of values and customs from many different cultures, but we are nonetheless held together by a fierce belief in democratic governance and a spirit of independence. It’s not better or worse than Chinese culture, just different.So, if you think I’ve been overly aggressive in my comments, I apologize, but at the same time I think you should learn to have fun with how we in the Anglosphere bash each other about sports.
If French TV is right and we can turn back the historical clock (to before 1707)to justify their Olympic medal position AND if Jeffrey is right when he says that the US would like a King then presumably everybody would be happy for all those US medals to be credited to Britain – no?
Phil,The Brits got most of their medals by either riding bicycles, riding horses, or guiding boats. What’s up with that? Can’t the Brits win anything without using another animal or some kind of implement?
Heh. It seems that the Brits can only win when they’re SITTING DOWN.
Sorry can’t answer that – it’s tea time! Actually it’s cognac time – very good for thin skins
As others mentioned, gold should be 3, silver 2, and bronze 1. According to this point system, China is currently 3 points ahead of the U.S. If you don’t count silver/bronze, you shouldn’t reward them at the game either. I agree the U.S. “total medal” system is foolish. I would beat you if I had 10 bronze medal while you had 9 golds. Ridiculous..
I don’t remember such an emphasis on medal count until the last two Olympic games. I personally think it’s a little anti-Olympic spirit – it’s about participation and individual/team achievement. Further, no one “wins” the Olympic games overall – if that were the point there wouldn’t be such an imbalance of potential medals in sports like riflery vs. basketball. And should medal count be adjusted for size of population?As for number of golds vs. number of medals, I think both are interesting and relevant. The only thing that would be offensive is switching methods during a single Olympics.What is a little disconcerting is the fact that the Chinese gov’t is using the Olympics as a means of legitimizing their rule. The Chinese *people* have done an amazing job of hosting the games and being great sports about wins and losses – in many cases better than Western guests in my estimation. But it sort of makes me sick that the government hosting a successful Olympics will lend legitmacy to the arbitrary oppression of certain groups of people.
Phil,”Sorry can’t answer that – it’s tea time!”Heh heh. Good one.
OK, the only fair way to sort this incredibly important question is to follow this process:1. Give a rating to the value of medals. I suggest a sliding scale of 7 for gold, 3 for silver, 1 for bronze.2. These scores should then be multiplied by a ‘degree of difficult’ score with sports with more competitors and a wider world-wide following worth more (so sprinting would attract more points than synchronised swimming – surely no-one can disagree with this!)3. In addition sports that attract more medals than others for basically the same thing should attract penalty points (so Phelps’ 8 golds for swimming fast shouldn’t be equal to 8 golds in sports where there is only one medal available – football, field hockey, etc.)These three steps will ensure that the real value of each medal is adequately calculated, and a total medal score for each country can be worked out. However, to determine which country is the best, we then need to take the total medal scores and rank the countries based on the following four criteria (in order of weighting):1. population2. total GDP3. percent of public funds committed to elite sports4. quality of coaching staff (I’d suggest salaries as a good measure of this)In this way we could adequately determine who is actually the best.Alternatively, we could just enjoy the spectacle…
Jim (American in Shanghai),There’s no question that the CCP is looking to gain a massive “mandate of heaven” with the Olympic Games that will last them for a long, long time with their subjects. At the same time, they’ve done a great job with the games, as far as I can see.
I agree with the gold medal system. The total medal system has no logic because then why bother to give silver and bronze medals to the second and third place. In that case, then let’s give gold medals to the first 3 “winners” and that’s it. The only reason why the nationalist US media use the total medal system is because they don’t want to be in the second place. But anyway by their “logic”, it would not make a difference to be second or first. Now they are trying to argue to divide the number of medals by the total population of the country which is also nonsense. Why then, don’t we divide the total medals by the GDP per Capita. Thta would make more sense since a poor country can not invest so much in sport as a rich country. In this way, we would see developing countries like Jamaica or Brazil in the first places
Cheers
Can we PLEASE stop all this rubbish about ranking the medals 1,2,3 !!The only way to rank medals is GOLD – FIVE, SILVER – TWO, BRONZE-1.
It continues to be an interesting discussion, but I suggest a word of warning regarding the importance given to league tables – however they are constituted. There is clearly a tendancy, multiplied by focussing on league tables, for the games to assume an ever greater level of professionalism (GB cycling maybe an example where it was suggested that Team GB looked like a Ferrari while everybody else looked like a Skoda!)and whenever this happens in sport the sport itself is ultimately destroyed. This situation is accentuated still farther once national prestige starts to take centre stage (the former commumist E.European countries another good example).However, it’s a nice experience to see one’s fellow country-persons (not allowed to say ‘countrymen’ any more) doing well, especially for me as it’s the first time since I started school – which is now quite a long time ago!It’s been such an exhausting ‘exchange of views’ that I think I’ll go back to sleep now – or have another cup of tea!
Well done the UK. Well done US and China and everyone who is taking part. The Aussies will be crying in their weak Aussie excuse for Beer. They always have a go at us Brits.
Phil,If the Brits can win this many medals while sitting down, just think how many they can win if they decide to stand up and compete!Okay, just kidding. Congrats to the Brits on a very fine Olympics. Rebecca Adlington had two fantastic swimming finals to get two golds. I don’t know much about Hoy, but it seems he was pretty dominant in his sport.
The law of gravity applies (what goes up must come down). Winning or loosing is not important, participating in a game being played fair and square is. On a given day, even the champions loose. This is sport not war. As for my American friends, there is really no point in getting into an arguement with you guys. Most of you live in cocoon, i have serious doubts if all New Yorkers know where California is. In your language the world means ‘USA’.Get a life guys.
First is first who remembers the rest
Faiz,Only losers say that winning and losing isn’t important. Come Sunday and the end of the games the USA will have 110 medals, ranked first in two of the three traditional sports (swimming and track and field) and second in the third (gymnastics). Our team sports have also been dominant, with our teams getting gold or silver in basketball, volleyball, beach volleyball, and soccer.
Walter Dix finished 3rd in the 100m final, clocking a respectable time of 9.91 secs. He also finished 5th in the 200m but, following two disqualifications, was pushed up to 3rd place. It is obvious that Dix’s achievements are equivalent to Usain Bolt’s double gold and double world record. The Americans are right to count total medals and ignore the numbers of gold, silver and bronzes. Well done USA! Now go and eat a couple of pizzas and burgers to celebrate.
The only reason China is ahead of us in golds is because they cheated! Look at how they’re stonewalling the world about the ages of the gymnasts! I wouldn’t be surprised if they were doping in weightlifting and just about any of the other sports they did well in.
Jamie,Where are you from?
Hi JeffreyI’m from England.
stars and stripes :cheating and doping are serious accusations.stupid star & strippers!we win 51 gold medals in fair play,loser.now u’re not only a loser but also a liar.the US is good lies,such as the iraq gets abc weapons.now u wanna tell another one? come on,save it,u’re the liar.
Hi guysI’m gonna try to be the voice of reason here. In 1964, the USSR had 96 medals compared to the USA’s 90. Yet USA appear top of the medals table, because they won more gold. In 2008, China have more golds but USA have more medals and, strangely, the USA are top again, because they have changed the way the rankings are calculated.Now, being half American (mother born in NY and grew up in NJ), I can understand why this has happened: China are already 2-0 up on the US – Korean and Viet Nam wars – and the Yanks understandably don’t wish to admit another defeat at the hands of China. Fair enough really, why would they want to admit that China have military AND sporting dominance? In a country so hell-bent on winning, this must severely damage pride, hence the medal table fiddling.Don’t worry Americans – you’re still ranked number one in the world in obesity, so you do win something after all. Congratulations!
Hey Jamie,China didn’t beat us in Vietnam or Korea, we decided it wasn’t worth it to go all the way to win those wars like we did in WW2. Which brings me to my second point, which is don’t you Brits come running to us begging for our help when the Russians starts threatening you wimps once again.
Hey Stars and StripesHow’s it going?It doesn’t matter if the Russians start threatening us. In fact, if they invade us and beat us that’s OK. Here’s my reasoning using “American medal table logic”:Russia will beat us and therefore get a gold medal. If we lose, we get a silver. Gold = silver so it’ll be a tie.China didn’t beat you in Nam or Korea? Next you’ll be saying the Yanks put a man on the moon before the Russians. Bless.
Posting a medals table by number of golds has a lot of flawed logic. If your not giving any value to silver or bronze medals, then why give them to the athletes ?On the other hand, posting it by total medals won has the same kind of flawed logic by giving the same value to gold, silver, and bronze. I bet you can’t one athlete to trade their gold for a silver or a silver for a bronze !The IOC should simply post the medals table in alphabetical order by country. This would be in alignment with their philosophy of not showing favortism to any particular country.The only way to measure one country against another, if you so choose, is to design a fair point system. Starting with medals earned for gold, silver, and bronze, such as 5, 3, 1. At the same time, one should also look at the number of athletes brought to the games versus number of points earned and the GDP and populations should be considered as well because, clearly a country with money and resources have a significant advantage as those who don’t have much of it.So, within the point system of medals earned, other points should be added to the medal points given based on ratios of points earned on medals to athletes brought, GDP, and populations. Then, you have a better picture of real performance based fairly on the tools the athletes have to compete against one another.
I can’t believe someone is bringing up the wars. How pathetic and unrespectful to those who died. Maybe less would have died if the Yanks had shown up at the beginning of the world wars and not left it to little countries like the UK, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand and many others.This is SPORT for heavens sake. grow up
Jamie,England? Is that a country?
Hi JeffreyYes, England IS a country.New York? Is that a city?Is this a who-can-ask-the-stupidest-question competition?
Jamie,How many medals did England (just the English, not counting the Scots, for example) win?
Jamieindeed, u know, the americans think they just know all.in fact, they know nothing but the world means new york.they don’t even understand england is a country.the ny boy wins the who-can-ask-the-stupidest-question competition!boo…
Hi JeffreyWe (GB, because we unite for the games) finished 4th in the world and, admittedly, the US won more gold medals. However, here’s the cultural difference between the two countries:The UK says “Great performance guys, you did us proud, 4th place is a great achievement out of 200+ nations”; the US bursts into tears and sobs “No, it’s not fair, we didn’t come second, we won, let’s invent a new scoring system to prove it”.Hi KaoCongratulations on providing two wonderful pieces of entertainment:1. Hosting a thoroughly enjoyable Olympics Games2. Finishing world champions and exposing how pathetically ungracious our American friends are in defeat
Jamie :agreed! and congrats for the GB achivement.and u’ll do even better in 2012.i went to london early this year.that’s a amazing city?and i noticed that u do have a place named yorkshire.u know what, new york was named after york,like a son after a father.Jeffrey:on a second thought, the US did very well this time and u got 110 medals, 10 more than china.and as a chinese, i know 51 golds does not mean china is stronger than the US in sports.we’re not, every single chinese know that.and for u, i suggest u learn more things about this wolrd and about ur own country before raising stupid and annoying questions,’cause ur free media is stonewalling u from the rest of the world.i’m travling across the world and i am surprised that the westerners know little about china, their info must be at least 30 years old.quetions like, why u people not wearing a mao suite,are really funny.and when peole do a good job, we don’t resort to a conspiracy theory as how he did it by cheating and doping, we admire their achievements and are happy for him.that’s china u don’t know about.when your shawn johson was invited to our national tv, she was treated like a real hero, that’s a little touching,indeed.and i guess she is now more famous in china than back home.again, Jeffrey,what u said on reuters only shows that u’re truly a pathetic loser,liar and idiot?trust me, we can launch a vote for that, u’ll win ur gold for loser in an american style election.and u sucker, do u know that ur president is not directy voted into office by american voters, u have a thing called Electoral College.that’s truly a winner-takes-all System.and basically, ur country is a winner-takes-all country.and that’s troublesome to me,when it’s about olympics games, u choose to put gold, silver and bronze on a equal status.that’s a lot more humane and i think that’s right.
Well done all individual medallersSee and explore Channel 4′s table which lets you rank nations’ achievements more fairly, relative to their populations, or GDP, or otherwise:http://c4news.com/livepages/ol ympics2008/c4/olympicsResults.htmlSo well done also to Bahamas, Jamaica, Iceland, Norway, Slovenia, Australia, who topped the ‘per population’ table, and to all nations topping other ‘fairer’ table options
Jamie, Kao,First of all, let me repeat. Thanks to China for putting on a great Olympic Games. It was a smooth operation and Zhang Yimou, whose films I began following years ago, put together amazing opening and closing ceremonies.There were so many great athletic performances from people from all over the world. Did you see the last inning of the South Korea and Cuba baseball game? The South Koreans were in deep shite, bases loaded, when they performed a masterful double-play under intense pressure to end the inning, defeat Cuba, and claim the gold medal. Did you see Rebecca Adlington swim? She picked up gold medals for GB, their first in several decades. Did you see Elena Isinbaeva break the world record (again) in the pole vault? Did you see Constatina Tomescu win the women’s marathon? She took the lead and forced the pace and wagered everything on being able to hold it together until the end of the race. It was gutsy move, one that brought her the gold medal.As for the Americans, we had a very good Olympics, ranked #1 in both swimming and track and field and #2 in gymnastics, the three disciplines being the traditional heart of the Summer Olympics. Our team sports were clearly dominant; there’s no other word to use:Men’s basketball: goldWomen’s basketball: goldMen’s volleyball: goldWomen’s volleyball: silverMen’s beach volleyball: goldWomen’s beach volleyball: goldWomen’s soccer: goldMen’s water polo: silverWomen’s softball: silverAnd many individual Americans stood on top of the podium and listened to our national anthem being played in Beijing. I’ll mention just two here: Bryan Clay, winner of the decathalon (traditionally considered the all-round best athlete in track and field), and Nastia Liukin, gold medalist for all-around female gymnast.China also had a fantastic Olympic Games. They wanted to claim as many gold medals as possible and they accomplished their task. Their men’s gymnastics team was the best by far. But by looking at the majority of their medals coming from ping pong and trampoline and diving, their accomplishments do not measure up to those of the United States, the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. Did the Chinese win even one gold in team sports?Like the old Soviet Union, the Chinese will continue to churn out many Olympic medalists, using their state-sponsored athletic program that removes children from their families at a young age to further the glory of China (and the CCP). Shawn Johnson’s parents, on the other hand, had to mortgage their house to pay for her training in gymnastics. Her trainer, Liang Chow, a Chinese-American living in Des Moines, Iowa, owner of his own gymnastics school, guided her to a gold medal. I’m not saying which system is better. They both fit their particular cultures, one controlled by the state, the other by individual initiative.Any comments?
One more observation.Comrades Guo Jingjing (diver) and Liu Xiang (hurdler) are MILLIONAIRES.Heh heh. Socialism with Chinese characteristics indeed.We capitalists won that contest too. Today, in China, to get rich and famous and see your face plastered on billboards is glorious.
Jeffrey,when comes to reasoning, u’re just all right.this time, i agree with you.and trust me, chinese people know that by winning 51 golds does not change the fact that china gets a real longway to go to get even closer to the US in sports or in any other areas. on many chinese websites, many people post their worries that we win golds from areas meaning little to the rest of the world and even to china.our football teams sucks! and it is now the laughing stock of the nation.jeffrey, it’s gonna change anyway: we entered the game only in 1984 and for the first time, in china’s history, chinese people are not worrying about hunger.it’s really something for the book that we did win 51 golds.good for china!it helps chinese people regain confidence and glory they lost in the better part of the last 150 years.without a background of our history, u’ll not properly understand that.
Kao,Actually, I do understand you. I have confidence that the Chinese people will succeed. Again, I admire the amazing steps that the Chinese have made in the last two decades. I first traveled through China back at the end of 2001, just a few months after you guys learned that you were going to host the Olympic games. While there are still pockets of poverty in the countryside, cities like Shanghai are really something to behold. Americans love to see all that energy released. A strong and stable China is good for us too.Best of luck to you, Kao. We can argue about athletics here, but I wish the best for you and the Chinese people.