Changing China
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Who’s top of the medals table?
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Americans looking at the medals table to the right of this blog, or on the official Games website, might be surprised to see the host country topping the chart with 39 gold medals and 68 in total.
The New York Times website, meanwhile, has the United States on top with a chart-leading 73 medals in total, 23 of them gold.
We at Reuters rank nations by the number of golds. It’s the way the IOC does it and, according to Reuters sports editor Paul Radford, it’s the way that makes most sense.
Here’s what Paul had to say when I asked him about it:
Reuters serves international clients across the whole world and most of them want their medals tables prioritised by gold medals. It seems that it is mainly North America which takes a different attitude and where the total number of medals is the criterion used.
I can’t see the logic of the total medals system at all. That means giving the same value to a bronze medal as you would to a gold. If you look at the expression on athletes’ faces as they just finish second or third, it’s often one of disappointment that they did not get gold and the chance to call themselves Olympic champions; it’s less often delight at being a silver or bronze medallist unless they started as rank outsiders.
Some people say the silver medallist is the first of the losers. I think that’s a bit harsh personally but you can take the point. Look at it another way. If Michael Phelps had won six golds and two silvers, would anyone have described that as a greater achievement than Mark Spitz’s seven-gold medal haul? The answer is clearly not.
So we’ll stick to the logical order of running our table in gold medals order. If that puts China first and the United States second, then so be it. Our aim is to be objective and favour no nation above any other.
Do you agree? Let us know in the comments.
PHOTO: A combination photo shows Michael Phelps of the U.S. holding each of his eight gold medals in the swimming competition at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games. REUTERS/Staff
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I don’t understand why you would do it any other way. You can’t seriously say that gold is of equal worth to silver or bronze. It’s absurd. I suppose you could do it on points, with five for gold, three for silver and one for bronze or something, but you’d never get everyone to agree.
and i see phelps is now off the top page of the medals. shame.
By golds is the best way. The points system as mentioned by jef would be a good measure of overall sporting performance, but it’s the champions that are always remembered most.
The only reason why the Americans publish the table with the total medals being the key factor is because they don’t ever want to lose at anything, especially to the Chinese. China are head and shoulders above everybody in the medals haul and people should be able to praise them fairly.
haha~~i quite agree with the author,that was true
The WSJ had a good article on it. Apparently it’s been done a lot longer, before either China or the US was a competitive force.The IOC is technically NOT supposed to show favoritism to rankings at all, because it is against the spirit of the Games.But people still do it. The shortcomings of a gold-first system seems to be that it seems to deprive funding from non-gold sports it seems.
It would be fairer if, regardless of the value of the medal, the league tables were set using “medals against millions”; that is looking at the national pool of people a country has to choose from against medals won. Using this as a benchmark, China sits last among the top ten with the US also performing lamentably. As of Monday, the Aussies were at the top with the UK third.
Commenting on the above post.If you look to past Olympic Medal tables from North American news/sports sources you will in fact see they used to rank by Gold first. Hmm!To be honest though, I’m quite enjoying the little rivalry between USA/China and also Britain/Australia!
It makes sense in this way to rank it according to the number of gold medals won. And I agree with Owen. People always remembered the winners, and not those who came in second and/or third.
So who’s that in 3rd? C’mon you Brits! no more Aussie rule! Bring on the Aussie whinging. Next up – the Ashes.A chuffed Brit.
Totally agree. it is golds first and should be. This is just another example of America’s arrogance and their inability to be good sportsmen and ‘admit’ that China are doing better than them.
The Americans are the real loosers in the medal tables. Coming second to the Chinese is understandable but they are only a little ahead of small countries such as GB and Australia. Shame on America and the way it corrupts the truth to make it self seem better than it is. Perhaps they should do some more growing up!
It’s only a cultural difference. In North America, we tend to congradulate all athletes. I think even the person coming in last has done amazing to even be able to compete in the olypmics. So gold medal prioritization works for most, but in the U.S. we prefer the total medal count.
*congratulate
The Americans will have a supporter for this way of recording success, Australia.
I wrote about this also on my blog. It seems crazy to rank countries by total medals. Some sports have two bronze medals like wrestling. Like many things in this world, the US likes to do things their own way, even if they are wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with being really good in what you do. I really don’t understand all those narrow eyed people that have bad things to say about this.
Did he really win???http://www.001ofasecond.com/http:/ /blogs.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/08/are_ you_ready_for_your_closeup.html
Anyone that watches subjective events, e.g Gymnastics, knows there is a bias towards the host country.
If we must be obsessed by national rather than personal Olympic achievements, doesn’t this all disguise a bigger ‘medal count’ blind spot? – how amazingly well some small countries achieve. Have a look at sites such as http://www.geocities.com/unclebryan/Poly mpic.html which relate medals according to population, (and use a good compromise 3-2-1 medal points system)China has 20% of the world’s population, it currently has about 20% of the golds (or 12% of all medals) Jamaica and Australia(currently top, or near top, of this fair table) are ‘outperforming’ China by 15 times, or the US by 6 times. I admire all 4 nations, but I’m a national of none of them. (A Scot!)
I think the two counting systems should be blended. Gold could count as one, Silver as 2/3 and Bronze as 1/3. This modified count would reflect both the importance of the gold and the accomplishments of the 2nd and 3rd place winners.
Hopefully China will top both Gold and total medal list… I wait with abated breath to see if US decide to rank by bronze then… HAHAHA
Neil, I liked your post. I also wonder what the medal count by country would look like if we compared it to each nation’s GDP (gross domestic product). Most of the top medal winners have high GDP’s.
Sorry about that. Comments got held up for a while for some reason. All there now, I hope.
Nobody would say the silver or bronze carries the same weight as the gold. Nobody. So why are we even talking about it?What we should be talking about is that there are thousands of athletes competing in the Olympics and only one gold per event, whether it be the 400m medley in swimming or the decathalon. Clearly gold in the pinnacle.However, there are two other medals which deserve credit and applause. We shouldn’t feel sorry for the bronze medalist or tell the silver medalist “too bad buddy, had you been 1/100 of a second faster…”. That’s not fair. We should take our hats off to all the medalists and say “well done, athletes, well done. You’ve made your country proud”. It doesn’t matter if that country be the U.S, China, G.B, Kenya, Czech Republic…I think that’s the reasoning behind a total medal count. At least that’s the way I see it.
Neil, I agree wholeheartedly those small nations have achieved amazing results. However, it is unfair to judge a country’s performance by its population, if nothing else because of the limit a participating country can enter in a particular sport. If the limit is removed, US would probably sweep all basketball medals, China all table tennis metals, etc…So if you do a gold per millions of people small country are definitely going to win out.
Steven – just to make you aware: people outside of north America (Europe, Asia) also congratulate their Olympians. However, they do not rank by total medal. On the other hand, why would the US men’s basketball team be called the Redeem Team, if the US is ok with any medal? Come on now, at least admit you guys are sore losers.
And Neil. Interestingly, I posted on this a while back. Australia and Jamaica do indeed deserve special praise.http://blogs.reuters.com/china/20 08/08/09/will-bahamas-top-medals-table-a gain/
Glad to see Grant’s similar thinking on ‘medals-per-population’{‘Polympic’table) , once the postings hold-up had cleared.And yes SS, I did the equally valid ‘per GDP’ calculation some years back. Please post results if you’ve the current GDP data!The ‘true’ Polympic top 5 at the Athens Olympics were Bahamas, Australia, Cuba, Hungary, Jamaica.
I agree with SS: give value to all medals. I would probably choose Gold 3, Silver 2, Bronze 1, just to simplify.Some medals are separated by 100ths of a second! Can we say: “Sorry, your performance is valueless based on a 1/100th of a second.”
Neil: if Olympics medal rank is by per capita, then Phelps should declare independence!
i don’t understand.. almost everyone else in the world apart from US use the most-golds tally.. the most-medals tally doesn’t make sense at all..it’s like saying a bronze is same as a gold..
-(Polympics contd)Lucy -agreed there is a small bias to small countries as you suggest(I did try a rough ‘factor’ for this in 2000) but I think (proper statistician needed!) it’s less than expected. There are very many small(under 5-10M?)countries getting no medals.Kevin -your earlier ‘bahamas’ post seems to have gone!Rui -interesting; if Lucy’s right he may get even more!Thought -the world awards about 1 Gold per 20M people.
The best way to think of this is mathematically. Counting the golds is the only thing that makes sense. If you add a forth position, then a fifth, then a sixth… etc. you’ll gradually converge on the principle that the highest population gives you the most medals, regardless of who won.But size of population is important. Australia does amazingly well given the population size. Perhaps the number of golds divided by population would be the fairest way to determine ‘winning country’.
I prefer overall medal count. By basing it on golds you are saying only golds count. I mean if you have a country with 1 gold, 20 silver, and 13 bronze, is that not more impressive than a nation with 3 gold, 5 silver and 1 bronze? Perhaps the point system mentioned above would be a good compromise.
Of course it should be gold medals the table is based on! To some extent I do agree with the old “its the taking part that counts” but I also believe “if your not fast your last” which means unfortunately America I have to tell you your loosing to china! I suppose you could make some films in a year or too which draws a different picture…………………A little bit like the war.
I suspect France, while disagreeing with the US in almost everything, will also be publishing the medal table in the US way. In fact to watch French television it is obvious that France is TOP of any medals table however it’s construed
It has to be done on amount of golds, it always has been and I’m sure when I was a kid there was a point system 3 for a gold 2 for a silver and 1 for a bronze, and the points would be at the end of the medals in a fourth column.
That’s the way the IOC has always ranked the medals table. It’s just typical American media trying to brainwash people into believing USA is number one.
Let’s look at the numbers, people. Since the beginning of the Olympics, the US has won:Gold: 897Silver: 693.5Bronze: 606.5TOTAL: 2197The closest country is the old Soviet Union/Unified team with 1112 total medals. We have TWICE as many medals our closest rival (who no longer exists).That’s dominance.Here’s another measure of dominance. If you add the 2004 Summer Olympics and the 2006 Winter Olympics together, the Americans exceeds any other country by a wide margin:2004 Summer Olympics (rank #1)G(36) / S(39) / B(27) total: 1022006 Winter Olympics (rank #2)G(9) / S(9) / B(7) total: 25That’s 127 medals for the combined summer and winter Olympics. Compare that with any other country and you’ll simply have to bow down to our hegemonic stranglehold on competitive international sports.By the way, in the 2006 Turin Winter Olympics, GB got one medal. Woo-hoo!
Is it still not a massive achievement for your country to be the 2nd best in the world at something, surely silver and bronze should count.
Surely the best way to take both positions into account is to ascribe a points system that gives 3 to gold, 2 to silver and 1 to bronze?
It’s nice to win and to be top. But why would anyone want to claim DOMINANCE?
Somehow most have missed the point. This is about the athletes; not which country wins. Since when did this have to do with being a loser if you dont get gold. That takes away from the spirit of sportsmanship.Look at the medal count any way you want and quit worrying about how it is printed, who cares? It is easy to be armchair athlete, try competing yourself then give opinion you will feel differently. Hats off to all who made it there, I congratulate you for your achievement.
Phil,It’s good to be the king.Heh heh. That’s a Mel Brooks reference.By the way, another way to look at all of this is to remark on the strong sporting tradition among the Anglosphere countries, with the Americans and the Australians always in the top-five with the Brits usually in the top-ten. The rivalry between the Americans and the Aussies in swimming, for example, is a very good thing for both countries. We push each other to be better.Also, in my opinion, you have to look at how each medal was won. I value Shalene Flanagan’s bronze medal in the 10000 probably more than some of the other gold and silver medals won by Americans. She pushed herself to her limit to get a medal in a race dominated by runners from other countries.At the same time, when commenters here bring up numbers, they better be able to look at ALL of them.
Both methods of how to gauge a country’s success in the Olympics are important and flawed. One puts too much emphasis on second and third place finishers and the other puts too little (they do bother to give out silver and bronze medals, don’t they?). This is not an absolute science here folks and it’s not a US government conspiracy meant too bolster the sagging egos of us poor Americans. Both tallies give a sense of a country’s overall accomplishments. And it’s only sport, for heaven’s sake.
Phil,Let me also mention one of the most moving gold medal performances: Matthias Steiner from Germany won the gold in the 105kg weightlifting class and on the podium he held up a photo of his wife who had been killed in a car accident the year before. Competing through all kinds of pain is also what the Olympics are about, I believe.
Swimming & gymnastics make up a lot of medals. If the country has money (US) or actively sponsors athletes (China), you will do well. In fact, there are many medals for the great sport of CURLING and for beach volleyall – whereas for hockey, soccer, cricket, etc -played by billions, there is only 1 each. IOC needs to seriously look at the whole system again.
Stop moving the goalposts to suit the USA. One Gold outweighs a million silvers. Deal with it and stop belly aching.
Oh dear, here we go again…the americans making up new rules again. Only do this when they arfe getting beat. If the americans had more gold, less medals total, you bet they would still be showing top of the list. Good for China, brilliant work brilliant show. ron uk.
Neil – your point takenI think a lot of people are talking about extremes here to support overall metal. Likewise, in this olympics, if China beat US by 17 gold metal but lost overall metal by 3 (btw, that’s the current standing), can you really say US did better?Think about this: 1 country has 2 gold, no silver, no bronze, another country has 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze. Which country should be ranked first? That should at least allow everyone to form their own opinion on the metal ranking.
Under the varying value system, they are tied.Country Agold 2 x 3 points each = 6 pointsCountry Bgold 1 x 3 points, silver 1 x 2 points, bronze 1 x 1 point = 6 pointsNothing wrong with a tie.Jim
The medal count also matters just as the gold count, depends on perspectives. The blog has its point and offers another opportunity to bash Americans. After all, the NYT primarily serves the American readers.On the other hand, I definitely think Mr. Fyland’s comments about silver and bronze as losers is more than harsh. I saw a couple of athletes collapsed with joy when they won bronze or silver medals. Many participating countries don’t even win any medal, but for them, it’s an honour to participate in the Olympic.It will be interesting to see in 2012 Olympic when China beats team GB on its home turf.
The gold medal count is like total real GDP. The total medal count is like GDP adjusted using purchasing power parity. It makes you feel good but, larger than you are.
So it’s ok for the US to top the medals table via gold medals in the 1964 Olympics but still have lesser medals than the Soviet Union… 36 golds vs 30 golds and 90 medals vs 96 medals respectively.But later on in 2008 they (USA) decide to change their mind to suit their egos and count total medal tally instead?? Nice going USA…Anyway, one thing’s for sure, the USA is leading the most hated country table in every way. God help the next president when he comes into office.
I think that steven said it the best;12:49 pm GMT It’s only a cultural difference. In North America, we tend to congradulate all athletes. I think even the person coming in last has done amazing to even be able to compete in the olypmics. So gold medal prioritization works for most, but in the U.S. we prefer the total medal count.And it’s not any national secret that China has a higher gold count…as im sure GB will in the next olympics. The US is proud of all of our athletes..not just the ones that won gold. Thats like saying you only claim 1 of your kids b/c they are prettier or have a higher paying job. And…yes…the US does feel like it’s the best county in the world…then again…so does GB
Honestly, WORLD. Why do you care so much? I have yet to see the US trashing the world for their achievements at the Olympics. These athletes deserve more. Shameful. From a true American fan. Congrats to the world!!!
Gold is a good measurement. Way to go China and UK. No more US domination.
It is OK to obey IOC.Ranking is depend on gold medal.Gold medal is the most important.Silver and bronze medalists is just the losser.
Next Olympic award Gold medals only ther will be no arguments.
there are valid and reasonable arguements to both sides. Gold is should be and obviously the most heavily weighted but that doesn’t mean silver and bronze dont matter. I guess it’s more of a way to make yourself feel better about where you stand; whether it’s “we have the most golds, the most champions.” or “we have the most medal; our nation puts equal emphasis on all winners”.With that said, here’s my two cents on the whole U.S vs. China and who comes out on top since everyone seems to make a big deal out of it. They are as of this moment 79 to 76 total medals and 26 to 43 golds. Now can you honestly tell me and most importantly yourself that a difference of 3 total medals override the difference of 17 golds. Which of the two nation have shown the better performance at the beijing games? I’m sure you would all come to the same conclusion.
haha whoa, didnt notice that mistake. it should read “Gold should be and obviously is the most….”
Honestly, why do people care how Americans rank the medal table? Every country does it in a way to make themselves feel proud, not just Americans. In Japan instead of showing the entire medal table we normally only see the medal count of Japan.
The real point is that india has 1 billion people and only one medal. There people are weak.
By the way, the host nation also gets a huge advantage. Has anyone been following up on gymnastics? Overscoring for Chinese gymnasts has been blatant. Chinese gymnasts are winning gold medals when they really should have won silver and winning bronze medals when they shouldn’t have won any. Foreign gymnasts are robbed.A great example is Liukin’s silver medal on Bars.
Maybe neither way is “wrong”. Statistics is always finds new ways to measure anything. Total medal count measures just that – total medals, and total gold count measures just that. They represent two different measures. Can the US be blamed for using a measure that gives them a better performance index than another? (and that’s not meant sarcastically). Especially when it is in domestic newspapers for a domestic audience? For the same reason, each country favors coverage of their athletes’ successful events.And if you’re looking for a true comparative measure between the olympics performance between countries – well… maybe that really isn’t why we do the Olympics. Maybe it shouldn’t be a big deal.
as a chinese, i show all my respect to all participants of the beijing 2008 games, no matter medalists or not.is it the spirit of the games; to participate! and yet again, we admit that new york times is right about one thing: china is at least on the list.what we talking about is “freedom of lies” not right or wrong.when the yankees want the other way around, they just move the goalposts or rewrite the rules.is it so difficult to be the second best? sooner or later, it’s a matter of time.ny times sucks!
if total medal tally is observed rather than total gold/silver/bronze; does that means a country holding 50 gold medals, meaning 50 champions (with no silver + bronze) is not doing as well as another country with 30 Silver + 30 Bronze (no champions)? then why push the extra mile for a gold?
It is wrong to take into count the total of medals only. Gold has more weight. It’s the champ award. If American press are consistent, they should tell the US athletes not to mind swapping their silvers with bronzes. What is the point of arguing, China will take over the total medal from US anyway before the end of the Olympic.
You play with results to get your country at the top of the table so I thought I may as well point out to our Auzzie neighbours that New Zealand is actually ahead Austrailia of gold medals per population. 3 golds for for 4M people gives 1 gold per 1.33M. Austraila 11 gold for 20M equates to 1 gold per 1.82M. Perhaps you need another rule that you need a minimum of 11 golds to qualify! Anyway well done China you are on top of the only real table.
It is wrong to take into count the total of medals only. Gold has more weight. It’s the champ award.
Lets put a different spin on this. Seeing that budget seems to be directly related to medals won, how much did each country pay for their medals? South Africa had a total olympic budget of $1.15 million and has so far taken a single medal at a cost of $1.15 million. Compare that to Britian which had a budget of $436.8 million and has won 36 medals – at a cost of $12.1 million each! We are beating the pants of them! What has the US, China etc spent? But for what its worth, most gold medals win the games.
Neil – there are those countries like Slovenia who always do well in medals per capita because they have an advantage in that their national sport is an Olympic event giving out several medals while relatively unpopular internationally as a sport.The only fair way is to either go by golds or weight it and congratulate the smaller or less well off countries if they get anywhere near the top. Or you could take all the different methods into account and add them up into a super table. But who is going look at that?
As we British still consider America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand et al just spinoffs of us, surely our medal total must far exceed the Chinese.
Given that most Americans never consider the news outside of their country, they probably think that they are top of the medals table. For shame!Well done China.
Channel 4 News in the UK have a medals table where you can compare both types of ordering, as well as being able to scale the results by GDP, Population, etchttp://channel4.com/olympics
Of course, what we are really seeing is the results of resources. Not to decry the achievements of so many fine athletes but it is interesting to note the relatively lowly position of Germany, for example, whereas the former communist E.Germany was always among the great winners, whereas, Britain, who for many years was just an Olympic joke is now standing the highest of any European nation. Why? Funding. Which, in Britain’s case has been supplied by resources from its National lottery.So the former communist countries are conspicuous by their absence; China has dedicated its resouces for national prestige: the US by virtue of its inherently powerful economy; the UK by National Lottery; Russia as a resurgent economy etc.etc.So perhaps the medals table should be a ratio not against a nation’s population but against its GDP?By that measurement probably Australia would be on top – Oh NO!
Hey – Jeffrey in New York – you’re doing it again (cheeting). You quote the US as coming out on top since the Olympics begin – I think you’ve been looking at the ESPN web site (with it’s US bias). Sure US are top – because they don’t add up USSR and Russian medals – so the US have a 100 year head start. Also, they keep Germany, West Germany and East Germany separate.I can’t wait to see how the US fiddles the final 2008 result when China beat them on BOTH Gold and total medals counts – how about excluding all medals won by non-US nationals ??? that should do it!
Phil,You wrote: “Also, they keep Germany, West Germany and East Germany separate.”That’s hilarious. WE keep them apart?! Um … tear down that wall Mr. Gorbachev? Ever heard of that? Berlin airlift? I lived in Berlin before 1989 and I can assure you that it wasn’t the Americans keeping East and West Germany apart.I guarantee that the Americans will come out on top with total medals by Sunday — and China will not have a single track and field medal. They’re pretty good at ping pong, badminton, and trampoline, though. Oh yeah, China is a major sports power. Heh heh heh. Well, just the same, congrats to the Chinese for putting on a very enjoyable Olympics.Any way you want to look at it, the US has been and will continue to be the dominant, all-around sports power. How many medals did China get in Turin two years ago?People, let me repeat. If you want to talk about numbers, let’s REALLY look at them. Over TWO THOUSAND MEDALS for the US. No other country comes close.
Phil,Look again at my chart. It absolutely includes the Soviet Union and the short-lived Unified Team statistics. No matter how you cut it, the US has more medals BY FAR than any other country over the last hundred years. Can’t handle the truth? You wouldn’t be the first.Since the beginning of the Olympics, the US has won:Gold: 897Silver: 693.5Bronze: 606.5TOTAL: 2197The closest country is the old Soviet Union/Unified team with 1112 total medals. We have TWICE as many medals our closest rival (who no longer exists).Here’s another measure of dominance. If you add the 2004 Summer Olympics and the 2006 Winter Olympics together, the Americans exceeds any other country by a wide margin:2004 Summer Olympics (rank #1)G(36) / S(39) / B(27) total: 1022006 Winter Olympics (rank #2)G(9) / S(9) / B(7) total: 25That’s 127 medals for the combined summer and winter Olympics. Compare that with any other country and you’ll simply have to bow down to our hegemonic stranglehold on competitive international sports.Yanks rule. Deal with it.
No! Really? The US media portraying something that is different to the reality?When I watch US news shows, the reporting amazes me, it’s bordering on the hysterical in it’s outlook. No doubt geared up to validate political motives.So why shouldn’t the media show the medal table as being weighted towards US glory, seeing as how it is already a long way down the road to propaganda ville.The US is a very strange beast in that its citizens increasing isolationism is a direct result of its foreign policy, and the media has been instrumental in bringing this about.Look at how commentators here are talking about domination and power, which is quite incredible when the US is the fattest nation on Earth.
Is the USA that unsure of itself that it has to be top of everything??The Official IOC medal table takes golds above silver or bronze and it is absoloutly absurd to do it another way just so that you come out top!I think the USA have got to face it that they are no longer producing the best in the world proven by Jamaica in this Olympics and start playing by everybody elses rules.They are as bad as China by not having the real girl sing in the opening ceromony, not deeming her ‘pretty’ enough. Both are trying to be perfect which will never happen.
Jeffrey, US has, is, and will almost be a giant sport nation. That no one can and will deny. The fact US got over 2000 medals in summer olympics is an amazing achievement.However, trying to compare those numbers to a rival (as you said) no long exist is just pathetic. USSR had being through two world wars (as in the battles were actually fought on their land and their infastructures getting destoryed), ceased to exist for 4 olympics (out of 29) and trying to say we are better. Comparing it to China is even more ridiculous as that country suffered through foreign invasion (btw, US is one of the country invaded) and rebuilding and they didn’t even start competing in 1984! If you really want to compare, why not compare the total medals won by US and USSR between 1948 and 1992 and see which country has more since that’s when the rivalry really occurred anyway.The funnies part in your post is you try to prove US is a strong sports nation, which if you actually read the comments, nobody disagreed. The topic is mainly on how the medal table of THIS olympic should be ranked (not for past hundred years).
Jeffrey in New York :1.china did win a track and field medal yesterday.and i know it’s not the last one.and btw, how many golds the US won in the track and field events, excluding that fat discus woman?u tell with numbers not by the USy common sense, which normally goes wrong.and u know, china did get a gold in sailing, maybe ,ur espn didn’t tell u that.and today, our team will beat the US beach volleyball team, this time i will cross my fingers.2.by what means u garantee the US would’t be the second best,by crossing ur fingers,i guess.dude,we’re got to be honest with ourself.3.to all americans: being a loser is not a sin, telling false stories and invading irag for oil is.we’re through taking moral lessons from the US, will u shut up and pack up for the next game in ur 52th state–the tiny island follower of urs.forgive my french!
Lucy,The US never invaded China during the 100 years of the Olympics. In WWII the US and the Chinese were allies. Many Americans died to remove the Japanese from China. How were we thanked? More Americans died when the Chinese fought with the North Koreans in the Korean War. I’ve traveled through China and find its people today to be reasonable, hard-working, and optimistic about the future. This is all good. I see only positives coming out of their hosting the Games this year.
“Chinese,”I’ve met some very interesting Chinese, both here in the States and in China. You’re not one of them.You wrote: “will u shut up and pack up for the next game in ur 52th state–the tiny island follower of urs.forgive my french!”I’m sure the Brits on this page will appreciate your characterization of their country.The Chinese are thinking about trying to put a Chinaman on the moon — uh, we did that FORTY YEARS AGO. Heh heh.
to lucy:the US did invade china with other 7 countries in 1900, fours after the first olympic games in 1896.and the US made a fortune out of it.obviously, ur history book didn’t tell u that either.well, u’re right, the US did help us in the fight against the japs. and u failed to mention we did fight two wars : korea and vietnam, the two neghbours of china u invaded. as a matter fact,u really should learn more about ur counry, lucy. on offence.
Hang on folks! The tone suggests something beyond patriotism – nationalism! Look back to 1936 to see where that got the Olympics.
Jeffrey:when u use the term chinaman, u did offend 1.3 billion chinese. u meet some very interesting chinese, really? and if dare to use that term in my face, i’m sure that be one of those last words of urs.challenge me with facts not by the USy foolishness.if i’m wrong about ur little brother, tell me it’s not.and are u sure the US did go to moon? yes u did, and u will.that’s wont’ bother me at all.u’ve done a great job, and i will give u 20 moon gold medals to catch up with the chinese.and a reminder, shall u use the word again, u’ll be such a deadman.
Come on people! All of you should publicly apologise to each other on this blog site and get back to talking about the subject, the medals table, and abide by the Olympic spirit. Btw – everyone says that coming third doesn’t count – the Brits seem pretty pleased with their ‘bronze medal’ position in the table
Chinaman,Hey, I thought the Chinese didn’t fight in Korea and Vietnam. That’s what Mao said. Jeez, could the Head Chairman Chinaman have been lying? And what’s wrong with “Chinaman”? You can call me Yank or Yankee, if you want. It doesn’t matter. Don’t worry, I will never call you “chink.”Phil, Chinaman called your home a crappy little island that is the 52nd US state. What say you?
Chinaman,The best thing about the West invading China back then was that the Germans taught the residents of Qingdao how to brew beer. I sucked down quite a few bottles of Tsingtao while traveling around China.*burp*
hmmm….tastes of sour grapes all round. Just for convenience and common sense, it is seriously much easier to view and make sense using the gold medals tally.
To Jeff from New York -Dominance? you sure? Let’s play by your rules then. Can you give me an accurate count of gold medals awarded during ancient Greek times (who STARTED the whole thing)? If not, stop yucking away about total gold. Totally without credibility.
I can give you an accurate count of the 700 years of Ancient Greek gold medals:0That’s right. The prize was olive oil and a wreath of leaves.Why don’t you all check wikipedia? It explains quite nicely. A per capita gold medal won’t work because it skews everything and believe it or not, there is a limit to how many athletes a country can send.A historical count won’t matter either because the U.S. has a huge head start. The USSR competed from 1952 to 1992 and the Chinese only started on 1984.Chinaman is an offensive term. Yankee isn’t (or why would the NY baseball team call themselves that?) Please refrain from flaming.
Being the good Canadian that I am, let me propose that we all take a deep breath and start to compromise. We have heard strong arguments from both poles: only gold, and total medal count. Now let’s meet in the middle, and do it my way!Gold 3, Silver 2, Bronze 1Jim from Vancouver – see you in 2010!
The medals list of NY Times expose the mind of American that they are afraid to lose the first position that come from some last olympic games.and show that their mind of afraid china’s strong more.and the medal list of NY times is the bronze list.I have no said.
Phil Styles is right.i was away from the subject.gold medals count, while silver and bronze do matter.and it’s my belief that the US is the sports superpower, no matter how many golds they get in beijing.china is doing great in certain areas,such as weightlifting, diving, pingpong,badminton,gymnastics,but we’re far behind in foodball,basketball,swimming ,track and field.the gold medal table does not tell all the stories.when i was offended the ny Jeffrey sucker, i resorted to flaming by saying the UK is the 52nd state of the US.i did not mean to say that.for that i’m sorry. however, we should condemn jeffrey from ny for using insulting word-”chinaman”.trust me, he did piss me off.
To Z: thanks for the correction CLASSICS MAJOR… (like i don’t know what wiki is… sheesh) HOWEVER, before u even comment on anything y not check to see which side of the debate I am on (and you are on)? You just failed your paper man, for1. not even clear what you/others are talking about2. use wiki as ur reference3. too dense to understand SARCASMHAHA
Martin, thanks for your Channel 4 site http://channel4.com/olympics giving everyone a hugely helpful way to explore fairer Tables ordered by Population/GDP etc.. Their ‘Table of tables’ diplomatically currently shows China/US exactly equal! (at 14th)
Jeff from NY -1. you are an a$$ for saying German invasion brought beer to Qingdao. it’s a f***ing invasion2. Check your freaking facts. Yes US is allie, but we take full credit for booting Japanese from mainland China so cross out that “from China” phrase3. really, stop thinking you know OH SO MUCH about China just because you travelled there. You stink of groundless condescension.We will see where the two countries are in 25 years.
wow–great to see people making such a big deal out of nothing. Anyone saying that US media has changed from gold to overall medal count rankings, please provide proof–according to archive.org, nbc and yahoo sports both still used the overall medal count in Athens, when we won the gold medal count as well.Other authoritarian countries under the facade of Communism also dominated the Olympics when they were at their peak as well, especially when they hosted the Games–China is no different in this regard. The US has been the only steady winner or near winner of Olympic Gold and overall medal counts since the modern games began. How’s that for Democracy?
To all the Chinese,Listen, it’s fun to rip each other (it’s part of sports enthusiasm), but let me be very clear here. The Chinese have put on a fantastic Olympics and the Chinese athletes will be strong for years and years to come. I have indeed traveled around China and find much of your energy similar to that of Americans. We can get back to bashing each other (as the Aussies and the Brits do), but the Chinese are a great people and here at these Olympics they have shown what they can do when they work together. It’s so much better for everyone that today Chinese are interacting with the world and not isolated as they were under Mao. Welcome to the party (no, not the CCP, the international party).
oh man,authoritarian and Communism ,aren’t they cold war wording? man,u’re way out of date.for the democracy thing,how about the so-called largest democracy-india?How’s that for Democracy?and btw, u’re way too far away from the topic.
“Chinese,”Hey, didn’t you make a prediction about the women’s beach volleyball final? Did you watch the game? Pretty good. The Americans won the gold medal, but the Chinese played tough. One of the Chinese women scored some beautiful serving aces.
Jeffrey in New York,this time, how is ur qingdao beer? why u people mention mao at all, that’s like forever ago.china is open and will always stay that way.for one thing, the cpc takes credit for that!don’t talk like a host:welcome to the party…….this time, jeffrey, welcome to china, and i will buy u a qingdao beer and bring along ur german friends, if u don’t mind.and one more thing:china is promoting the globlizaion process,we wanna be connected with other peoples. in the opening ceremony, we said that loud and clear:peace and harmony???;we’re happy to receive friends from faraway(?????????????.
“Chinese,”These bottles of Tsingtao beer taste pretty good right now, especially after the women’s beach volleyball gold. And thanks for the offer to buy me a round of drinks. Hey, I agree with you that the complete nightmare of the Cultural Revolution is long in the past now. And a damn good thing too. I’m sure you’ve been to the Summer Palace in Beijing, right? I remember walking by a wall on top of the main hill where all the Buddha faces had been hammered off by fanatical Chinese back during the Cultural Revolution, when so much of China’s great history was destroyed by its own people. I sure as hell hope you guys don’t have to go through that kind of madness again. I think you can agree with me on that, right?About Qingdao, the city. I was surprised to find so many buildings still standing that had been built by the Germans when that section of China was under their control. German architecture on the coast of China. Strange.
JeffreyIf you have ever been hurt at your leg,do you cut out it?that’s why also some german house in QingDao, and why China’s national anthem also use the ‘The most dangerous time’.
According to French TV Britain is more successful at these games than France because the UK is four countries and France is only one! That should make a real mess of the medals table!
re: French TVPopulation of France = 64.4mPopulation of UK = 60.5mJust don’t get me started!(And yes, Team GB should be called Team UK as N Ireland is part of it)
Jeff in New York -Talking about destruction of cultural artifacts…. where are the aboriginal Indian culture now in American society today?And oh, kindly inform the audience on this board any architectural style that is COMPLETELY United States and not under Anglo-Saxon influence. United States were a bunch of European colonies until 1776, as the name of your country aptly suggest.You sure as hell are knowledgeable about Chinese culture/history (and know to hit it where it hurts). But don’t forget – There are plenty of dirty laundries in every country (which would make the debate endless).Unfortunately, your education and informed state have not given you a sophisticated approach to deal with a different culture, but enabled you to develop an arrogant sense of superiority. Of all the lovely New Yorkers I’ve met, whose understanding and appreciation of differences I admire, you sure are an outlier. You are entitled to all of your attitudes and condescension, but kindly refrain from parading your shallowness on Reuters.com, which by the way, is international.
Rui,Let me repeat. I ADMIRE the Chinese. So why are you so belligerent right now? I only said that I’ve seen the results of the madness of the Cultural Revolution and have talked to many Chinese IN China about those times. There’s no question that China is a far different place today — amazingly so. I agree that it’s not worth talking about today. China is no longer a Communist country. In my view, China is a capitalist country led by a single party, with the Politburo acting similarly to the ancient ruling dynasties with the aid of the Mandarins.Many of my remarks above are about SPORTS RIVALRY. One problem that Chinese do have is that they’re far too sensitive about these matters. Americans, Brits, and Aussies beat on each other all the time about sports; it’s normal. Chinese need to learn to roll with the punches.American culture is a strange hybrid of values and customs from many different cultures, but we are nonetheless held together by a fierce belief in democratic governance and a spirit of independence. It’s not better or worse than Chinese culture, just different.So, if you think I’ve been overly aggressive in my comments, I apologize, but at the same time I think you should learn to have fun with how we in the Anglosphere bash each other about sports.
If French TV is right and we can turn back the historical clock (to before 1707)to justify their Olympic medal position AND if Jeffrey is right when he says that the US would like a King then presumably everybody would be happy for all those US medals to be credited to Britain – no?
Phil,The Brits got most of their medals by either riding bicycles, riding horses, or guiding boats. What’s up with that? Can’t the Brits win anything without using another animal or some kind of implement?
Heh. It seems that the Brits can only win when they’re SITTING DOWN.
Sorry can’t answer that – it’s tea time! Actually it’s cognac time – very good for thin skins
As others mentioned, gold should be 3, silver 2, and bronze 1. According to this point system, China is currently 3 points ahead of the U.S. If you don’t count silver/bronze, you shouldn’t reward them at the game either. I agree the U.S. “total medal” system is foolish. I would beat you if I had 10 bronze medal while you had 9 golds. Ridiculous..
I don’t remember such an emphasis on medal count until the last two Olympic games. I personally think it’s a little anti-Olympic spirit – it’s about participation and individual/team achievement. Further, no one “wins” the Olympic games overall – if that were the point there wouldn’t be such an imbalance of potential medals in sports like riflery vs. basketball. And should medal count be adjusted for size of population?As for number of golds vs. number of medals, I think both are interesting and relevant. The only thing that would be offensive is switching methods during a single Olympics.What is a little disconcerting is the fact that the Chinese gov’t is using the Olympics as a means of legitimizing their rule. The Chinese *people* have done an amazing job of hosting the games and being great sports about wins and losses – in many cases better than Western guests in my estimation. But it sort of makes me sick that the government hosting a successful Olympics will lend legitmacy to the arbitrary oppression of certain groups of people.
Phil,”Sorry can’t answer that – it’s tea time!”Heh heh. Good one.
OK, the only fair way to sort this incredibly important question is to follow this process:1. Give a rating to the value of medals. I suggest a sliding scale of 7 for gold, 3 for silver, 1 for bronze.2. These scores should then be multiplied by a ‘degree of difficult’ score with sports with more competitors and a wider world-wide following worth more (so sprinting would attract more points than synchronised swimming – surely no-one can disagree with this!)3. In addition sports that attract more medals than others for basically the same thing should attract penalty points (so Phelps’ 8 golds for swimming fast shouldn’t be equal to 8 golds in sports where there is only one medal available – football, field hockey, etc.)These three steps will ensure that the real value of each medal is adequately calculated, and a total medal score for each country can be worked out. However, to determine which country is the best, we then need to take the total medal scores and rank the countries based on the following four criteria (in order of weighting):1. population2. total GDP3. percent of public funds committed to elite sports4. quality of coaching staff (I’d suggest salaries as a good measure of this)In this way we could adequately determine who is actually the best.Alternatively, we could just enjoy the spectacle…
Jim (American in Shanghai),There’s no question that the CCP is looking to gain a massive “mandate of heaven” with the Olympic Games that will last them for a long, long time with their subjects. At the same time, they’ve done a great job with the games, as far as I can see.
I agree with the gold medal system. The total medal system has no logic because then why bother to give silver and bronze medals to the second and third place. In that case, then let’s give gold medals to the first 3 “winners” and that’s it. The only reason why the nationalist US media use the total medal system is because they don’t want to be in the second place. But anyway by their “logic”, it would not make a difference to be second or first. Now they are trying to argue to divide the number of medals by the total population of the country which is also nonsense. Why then, don’t we divide the total medals by the GDP per Capita. Thta would make more sense since a poor country can not invest so much in sport as a rich country. In this way, we would see developing countries like Jamaica or Brazil in the first places
Cheers
Can we PLEASE stop all this rubbish about ranking the medals 1,2,3 !!The only way to rank medals is GOLD – FIVE, SILVER – TWO, BRONZE-1.
It continues to be an interesting discussion, but I suggest a word of warning regarding the importance given to league tables – however they are constituted. There is clearly a tendancy, multiplied by focussing on league tables, for the games to assume an ever greater level of professionalism (GB cycling maybe an example where it was suggested that Team GB looked like a Ferrari while everybody else looked like a Skoda!)and whenever this happens in sport the sport itself is ultimately destroyed. This situation is accentuated still farther once national prestige starts to take centre stage (the former commumist E.European countries another good example).However, it’s a nice experience to see one’s fellow country-persons (not allowed to say ‘countrymen’ any more) doing well, especially for me as it’s the first time since I started school – which is now quite a long time ago!It’s been such an exhausting ‘exchange of views’ that I think I’ll go back to sleep now – or have another cup of tea!
Well done the UK. Well done US and China and everyone who is taking part. The Aussies will be crying in their weak Aussie excuse for Beer. They always have a go at us Brits.
Phil,If the Brits can win this many medals while sitting down, just think how many they can win if they decide to stand up and compete!Okay, just kidding. Congrats to the Brits on a very fine Olympics. Rebecca Adlington had two fantastic swimming finals to get two golds. I don’t know much about Hoy, but it seems he was pretty dominant in his sport.
The law of gravity applies (what goes up must come down). Winning or loosing is not important, participating in a game being played fair and square is. On a given day, even the champions loose. This is sport not war. As for my American friends, there is really no point in getting into an arguement with you guys. Most of you live in cocoon, i have serious doubts if all New Yorkers know where California is. In your language the world means ‘USA’.Get a life guys.
First is first who remembers the rest
Faiz,Only losers say that winning and losing isn’t important. Come Sunday and the end of the games the USA will have 110 medals, ranked first in two of the three traditional sports (swimming and track and field) and second in the third (gymnastics). Our team sports have also been dominant, with our teams getting gold or silver in basketball, volleyball, beach volleyball, and soccer.
Walter Dix finished 3rd in the 100m final, clocking a respectable time of 9.91 secs. He also finished 5th in the 200m but, following two disqualifications, was pushed up to 3rd place. It is obvious that Dix’s achievements are equivalent to Usain Bolt’s double gold and double world record. The Americans are right to count total medals and ignore the numbers of gold, silver and bronzes. Well done USA! Now go and eat a couple of pizzas and burgers to celebrate.
The only reason China is ahead of us in golds is because they cheated! Look at how they’re stonewalling the world about the ages of the gymnasts! I wouldn’t be surprised if they were doping in weightlifting and just about any of the other sports they did well in.
Jamie,Where are you from?
Hi JeffreyI’m from England.
stars and stripes :cheating and doping are serious accusations.stupid star & strippers!we win 51 gold medals in fair play,loser.now u’re not only a loser but also a liar.the US is good lies,such as the iraq gets abc weapons.now u wanna tell another one? come on,save it,u’re the liar.
Hi guysI’m gonna try to be the voice of reason here. In 1964, the USSR had 96 medals compared to the USA’s 90. Yet USA appear top of the medals table, because they won more gold. In 2008, China have more golds but USA have more medals and, strangely, the USA are top again, because they have changed the way the rankings are calculated.Now, being half American (mother born in NY and grew up in NJ), I can understand why this has happened: China are already 2-0 up on the US – Korean and Viet Nam wars – and the Yanks understandably don’t wish to admit another defeat at the hands of China. Fair enough really, why would they want to admit that China have military AND sporting dominance? In a country so hell-bent on winning, this must severely damage pride, hence the medal table fiddling.Don’t worry Americans – you’re still ranked number one in the world in obesity, so you do win something after all. Congratulations!
Hey Jamie,China didn’t beat us in Vietnam or Korea, we decided it wasn’t worth it to go all the way to win those wars like we did in WW2. Which brings me to my second point, which is don’t you Brits come running to us begging for our help when the Russians starts threatening you wimps once again.
Hey Stars and StripesHow’s it going?It doesn’t matter if the Russians start threatening us. In fact, if they invade us and beat us that’s OK. Here’s my reasoning using “American medal table logic”:Russia will beat us and therefore get a gold medal. If we lose, we get a silver. Gold = silver so it’ll be a tie.China didn’t beat you in Nam or Korea? Next you’ll be saying the Yanks put a man on the moon before the Russians. Bless.
Posting a medals table by number of golds has a lot of flawed logic. If your not giving any value to silver or bronze medals, then why give them to the athletes ?On the other hand, posting it by total medals won has the same kind of flawed logic by giving the same value to gold, silver, and bronze. I bet you can’t one athlete to trade their gold for a silver or a silver for a bronze !The IOC should simply post the medals table in alphabetical order by country. This would be in alignment with their philosophy of not showing favortism to any particular country.The only way to measure one country against another, if you so choose, is to design a fair point system. Starting with medals earned for gold, silver, and bronze, such as 5, 3, 1. At the same time, one should also look at the number of athletes brought to the games versus number of points earned and the GDP and populations should be considered as well because, clearly a country with money and resources have a significant advantage as those who don’t have much of it.So, within the point system of medals earned, other points should be added to the medal points given based on ratios of points earned on medals to athletes brought, GDP, and populations. Then, you have a better picture of real performance based fairly on the tools the athletes have to compete against one another.
I can’t believe someone is bringing up the wars. How pathetic and unrespectful to those who died. Maybe less would have died if the Yanks had shown up at the beginning of the world wars and not left it to little countries like the UK, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand and many others.This is SPORT for heavens sake. grow up
Jamie,England? Is that a country?
Hi JeffreyYes, England IS a country.New York? Is that a city?Is this a who-can-ask-the-stupidest-question competition?
Jamie,How many medals did England (just the English, not counting the Scots, for example) win?
Jamieindeed, u know, the americans think they just know all.in fact, they know nothing but the world means new york.they don’t even understand england is a country.the ny boy wins the who-can-ask-the-stupidest-question competition!boo…
Hi JeffreyWe (GB, because we unite for the games) finished 4th in the world and, admittedly, the US won more gold medals. However, here’s the cultural difference between the two countries:The UK says “Great performance guys, you did us proud, 4th place is a great achievement out of 200+ nations”; the US bursts into tears and sobs “No, it’s not fair, we didn’t come second, we won, let’s invent a new scoring system to prove it”.Hi KaoCongratulations on providing two wonderful pieces of entertainment:1. Hosting a thoroughly enjoyable Olympics Games2. Finishing world champions and exposing how pathetically ungracious our American friends are in defeat
Jamie :agreed! and congrats for the GB achivement.and u’ll do even better in 2012.i went to london early this year.that’s a amazing city?and i noticed that u do have a place named yorkshire.u know what, new york was named after york,like a son after a father.Jeffrey:on a second thought, the US did very well this time and u got 110 medals, 10 more than china.and as a chinese, i know 51 golds does not mean china is stronger than the US in sports.we’re not, every single chinese know that.and for u, i suggest u learn more things about this wolrd and about ur own country before raising stupid and annoying questions,’cause ur free media is stonewalling u from the rest of the world.i’m travling across the world and i am surprised that the westerners know little about china, their info must be at least 30 years old.quetions like, why u people not wearing a mao suite,are really funny.and when peole do a good job, we don’t resort to a conspiracy theory as how he did it by cheating and doping, we admire their achievements and are happy for him.that’s china u don’t know about.when your shawn johson was invited to our national tv, she was treated like a real hero, that’s a little touching,indeed.and i guess she is now more famous in china than back home.again, Jeffrey,what u said on reuters only shows that u’re truly a pathetic loser,liar and idiot?trust me, we can launch a vote for that, u’ll win ur gold for loser in an american style election.and u sucker, do u know that ur president is not directy voted into office by american voters, u have a thing called Electoral College.that’s truly a winner-takes-all System.and basically, ur country is a winner-takes-all country.and that’s troublesome to me,when it’s about olympics games, u choose to put gold, silver and bronze on a equal status.that’s a lot more humane and i think that’s right.
Well done all individual medallersSee and explore Channel 4′s table which lets you rank nations’ achievements more fairly, relative to their populations, or GDP, or otherwise:http://c4news.com/livepages/ol ympics2008/c4/olympicsResults.htmlSo well done also to Bahamas, Jamaica, Iceland, Norway, Slovenia, Australia, who topped the ‘per population’ table, and to all nations topping other ‘fairer’ table options
Jamie, Kao,First of all, let me repeat. Thanks to China for putting on a great Olympic Games. It was a smooth operation and Zhang Yimou, whose films I began following years ago, put together amazing opening and closing ceremonies.There were so many great athletic performances from people from all over the world. Did you see the last inning of the South Korea and Cuba baseball game? The South Koreans were in deep shite, bases loaded, when they performed a masterful double-play under intense pressure to end the inning, defeat Cuba, and claim the gold medal. Did you see Rebecca Adlington swim? She picked up gold medals for GB, their first in several decades. Did you see Elena Isinbaeva break the world record (again) in the pole vault? Did you see Constatina Tomescu win the women’s marathon? She took the lead and forced the pace and wagered everything on being able to hold it together until the end of the race. It was gutsy move, one that brought her the gold medal.As for the Americans, we had a very good Olympics, ranked #1 in both swimming and track and field and #2 in gymnastics, the three disciplines being the traditional heart of the Summer Olympics. Our team sports were clearly dominant; there’s no other word to use:Men’s basketball: goldWomen’s basketball: goldMen’s volleyball: goldWomen’s volleyball: silverMen’s beach volleyball: goldWomen’s beach volleyball: goldWomen’s soccer: goldMen’s water polo: silverWomen’s softball: silverAnd many individual Americans stood on top of the podium and listened to our national anthem being played in Beijing. I’ll mention just two here: Bryan Clay, winner of the decathalon (traditionally considered the all-round best athlete in track and field), and Nastia Liukin, gold medalist for all-around female gymnast.China also had a fantastic Olympic Games. They wanted to claim as many gold medals as possible and they accomplished their task. Their men’s gymnastics team was the best by far. But by looking at the majority of their medals coming from ping pong and trampoline and diving, their accomplishments do not measure up to those of the United States, the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. Did the Chinese win even one gold in team sports?Like the old Soviet Union, the Chinese will continue to churn out many Olympic medalists, using their state-sponsored athletic program that removes children from their families at a young age to further the glory of China (and the CCP). Shawn Johnson’s parents, on the other hand, had to mortgage their house to pay for her training in gymnastics. Her trainer, Liang Chow, a Chinese-American living in Des Moines, Iowa, owner of his own gymnastics school, guided her to a gold medal. I’m not saying which system is better. They both fit their particular cultures, one controlled by the state, the other by individual initiative.Any comments?
One more observation.Comrades Guo Jingjing (diver) and Liu Xiang (hurdler) are MILLIONAIRES.Heh heh. Socialism with Chinese characteristics indeed.We capitalists won that contest too. Today, in China, to get rich and famous and see your face plastered on billboards is glorious.
Jeffrey,when comes to reasoning, u’re just all right.this time, i agree with you.and trust me, chinese people know that by winning 51 golds does not change the fact that china gets a real longway to go to get even closer to the US in sports or in any other areas. on many chinese websites, many people post their worries that we win golds from areas meaning little to the rest of the world and even to china.our football teams sucks! and it is now the laughing stock of the nation.jeffrey, it’s gonna change anyway: we entered the game only in 1984 and for the first time, in china’s history, chinese people are not worrying about hunger.it’s really something for the book that we did win 51 golds.good for china!it helps chinese people regain confidence and glory they lost in the better part of the last 150 years.without a background of our history, u’ll not properly understand that.
Kao,Actually, I do understand you. I have confidence that the Chinese people will succeed. Again, I admire the amazing steps that the Chinese have made in the last two decades. I first traveled through China back at the end of 2001, just a few months after you guys learned that you were going to host the Olympic games. While there are still pockets of poverty in the countryside, cities like Shanghai are really something to behold. Americans love to see all that energy released. A strong and stable China is good for us too.Best of luck to you, Kao. We can argue about athletics here, but I wish the best for you and the Chinese people.
Kao,Hey, the ultimate loser has to be Matt Emmons, the American who shot the wrong target on his last attempt (at a sure gold medal) at Athens in 2004 and then this year completely choked again on the last target (and lost again, handing the gold medal to a Chinese shooter). My God, if there were a gold medal for f**king up, Emmons would win that one easily.And let’s not forget the U.S. 4 by 100 relay teams. I ran track in high school and passing the baton is harder than it looks on TV (people don’t realize what it means to pass something off when you’re running full speed), but it’s not THAT hard. Thank God the 4 by 400 relay teams motored to golds.
Kao,One more point. I did hear about the Chinese people mocking their men’s soccer team. I know how much the Chinese love soccer, so I can understand how angry you guys are that your team played so poorly. Listen, let’s hope they turn things around and do much better in London in four years.
Jeffrey:1.our men’s soccer team will not go anyfurther, i serously doubt they would have the chance to compete in london in 2012.losing face in home is too much for us, doing it in london will kill us.2.Matt Emmons is instant Celebrity in china.and he is not the loser, he and his wife win our respect.3.i would stop posting any more comments, ’cause i know it’s not really meaningful to fight other cultures or traditions, instead, we respect them.4.my email:uaremyfirst@msn.com.
Hi JeffreyYou managed to come up with a list of medals that the US has won, to support the claim that they dominated team sports, which indeed they did. However, a Jamaican could write: “We dominated sprint events: Men’s 100m – gold; Women’s 100m – 1 gold and 2 silvers; Men’s 200m – gold; Women’s 200m – gold; Men’s 4×100 relay – gold”. Brits can say “We dominated track cycling – 7 golds, 3 silvers, 2 bronzes (I can’t be bothered to list individual events). China can say they dominated racket sports etc. etc.However, we’re getting off track here: the title of this debate, shown at the top of the page, is “Who’s top of the medals table?”, not “Who can boast the best about their country’s achievement in a specific sporting area?”So, Jeff, I answered your question about whether England’s a country, please answer me this one question:”Who finished top of the medals table in the 2008 Olympics?”
A medals table!-312M European Union pre-1991 10: 188 medals (60gold)1318M China 30 provinces: 100 medals (51 gold)303M USA 51 States: 110 medals (36 gold)(550M Euro.Union current 27: 280 medals (87 gold)My top:2.7M Jamaica 13 medals (6 gold)
Neil,Don’t be a complete idiot. Each country is allowed a couple entrants in each competition, so you can’t compare how the US (one country) compared to the EU (multiple countries). Come on, use your head.Jamie,Track cycling?! WTF? Is that even a sport? Domination in ping pong and badminton? What is this, junior high? Summer camp?
Jamie,China won the most gold medals and the USA won the most medals.
Hi JeffreyI know, but who, in your opinion, finished top of the medals table in the 2008 Olympics?
Jamie,Quality of total medals? No question about it: the United States of AMERICA. Badminton, ping pong, and trampoline do not, in my view, reach the level of achievement of all of our track and field, swimming, and team sport medals. China, as a state, concentrated on picking up any ticky-tack gold medal they could. That was their stated plan. It was a stupid goal. It’s flashy and allows them to boast, but it’s a hollow boast. As Kao admitted above, even the Chinese know that they got a lot of medals in sports that no one cares about. How can you claim to be number one when you have no golds in track and field? Track and field in the foundation of the Summer Olympics. Did the ancient Greeks play badminton?
Hi JeffreyBRILLIANT! Thanks for backing up the underlying point that I’ve been making throughout the debate: if the US don’t win, they will re-invent the rules so that they do. Be it deciding that gold=bronze (US media), or disregarding events that China won on the grounds that “no one cares” (Jeffrey in New York), you guys will always find a way to pretend you’re number 1.However, I can fully understand why you’ve done this. I’ve been in the States three times during the Summer Olympics and seen the coverage. In Britain, both live coverage and highlights consist of pretty much every event, regardless of who competes and wins, giving a well-rounded view of proceedings. In the US, the coverage consists of events that the US competes in, and the highlights consist of events that the US wins. So all that our American cousins are exposed to is event after event of the US kicking everyone else’s arse. This is why they’re so convinced that they’re the best and can’t stand to lose.Jeffrey, it’s not your fault that you’re so arrogantly pro-US: you’re the unfortunate victim of brainwashing at the hands of your nation’s media.So, please, everyone: stop having a pop at poor old Jeff – it’s not his that fault he’s the way he is.Jeffrey… I forgive you.
Sorry, that should have read “it’s not his fault that he’s the way he is”
Jamie,I guess you haven’t seen the CCTV coverage of the Olympics, then? Just ask any of the Chinese stopping by here how CCTV (state-controlled, mouthpiece for the CCP) rarely showed any Chinese athlete losing. I have a lot of gripes with NBC’s coverage (mainly because they held back a lot of live events to show them during primetime), but they showed all of the major events won by other countries. And, more to the point, you failed to counter my argument. Want to try again? How can China be considered the “winner” when they did not receive a single track and field gold medal?And you also didn’t answer a different question. Is track cycling a sport? And Hoy isn’t English, is he?Heh heh. This is fun.
Jamie,By the way, there’s no “pretending” about it. We have the largest GDP in the world BY FAR: 13 TRILLION and counting. We have the most lethal military. We lead the world in science, technology, business, entertainment, and … yes, sports.Sorry, but those are the facts, my British friend. It’s a good thing we’re buddies. Yes, we kicked your arse in the Revolutionary War, but since then we also saved your arse in WWI and WWII. No thanks necessary. We’d do it again for a friend.
Jamie,One more point. Britain probably does have a history of showing other countries winning. Why? For the simple fact that, in general, Britain does not win many medals. Duh!Do you remember your rank in the 1996 Summer Olympics? 36th place. Between Ethiopia and Belarus. Heh heh heh. With 1 gold medal, 8 silver, and 6 bronze, for a total of 15. Woo-hoo!Can you imagine if the BBC concentrated only on British athletes for those games? Talk about an advertising nightmare.Oh yeah, the US won 44 gold, 32 silver, and 25 bronze at those games, for a total of 101 medals. 44 to 1. Let me see you compute that medal-to-population statistic on that one. Lovely.
Hi JeffreyWow – losing to China has really pissed you off – a 3 message temper tantrum, most of it going completely off the point of the Olympics. Anyway, I’ll briefly answer each of your questions:Q. I guess you haven’t seen the CCTV coverage of the Olympics, then?A. No, I haven’t. I was saying that the US coverage is biased, not that the Chinese coverage isn’t.Q. “How can China be considered the “winner” when they did not receive a single track and field gold medal?A. Simply because it’s based on all events, not just one area.Q. Is track cycling a sport?A. Yes, it is classed as an Olympics sport.Q. And Hoy isn’t English, is he?A. Hoy’s Scottish. But we compete as GB in the Olympics. It’s a bit like me saying “Phelps isn’t a New Yorker is he?”.”We have the largest GDP in the world BY FAR: 13 TRILLION and counting.”Yep. This is a bit like the medal table thing really – finding a way of making USA come out as number 1. I prefer HDI as a way of ranking countries (look it up). It puts Canada above you. But this is irrelevant to the discussion.”We lead the world in … and … yes, sports.”Do you? Taking your previous argument about why the US won the Olympics (China won ticky-tack events, USA won the major ones), then we should look at the two main sporting events – football and the Olympics. Brazil domainate football (although Italy are close with 4 WC wins compared to Brazil’s 5); and China dominated the Olympics (sorry to keep bringing that up). Where are USA now? OK, you probably dominate a few ticky-tack sports like baseball and American football that only about 5 countries play.”Yes, we kicked your arse in the Revolutionary War”We let you win cos we wanted rid of you. We still have the greatest country in North America though – Canada.”But since then we also saved your arse in WWI and WWII.” We had won already, you guys came along and took the credit. Here’s a sporting analogy – Asafa Powell claims that he won the 4x100m relay, even though he was handed the baton with Jamaica well in front.Anyway, most of the above is irrelevant – can we return to the whole point of this discussion: Olympics medal tables?I have questions:1. Who topped the medals table in the 1964 Olympics?2. Who topped the medals table in the 2008 Olympics?Whichever way you look at it, you have to admit the US didn’t win both. If you go by golds then USSR kicked your ass in ’64 (as they did in the Space Race); if you go by total medals then China kicked your ass in ’08 (as they did in Nam). Which is it to be Jeff?Predicted response: USA won both, backed up by really dodgy logic. This will be followed by a load of off-topic boasting by the teenager from New York about other things that America wins at, with a little bit of Britain-bashing chucked in. Go for it!
Thanks Jeffrey..I’m not a complete one yet, just training.I think you’ll find entrants allowed are three. Of course my US/EU comparison is a bit warped statistically, but not by as much as you may think. Here’s hoping you’ll open your mind.”Neil, Don’t be a complete idiot. Each country is allowed a couple entrants in each competition …….”
Neil wrote: “Here’s hoping you’ll open your mind”. He’s American! The only things he opens are his ass (to speak) and his mouth (to stuff hotdogs in so that he can maintain his BMI of 35).
Jamie,You’re English, right? Okay, that helps me understand where you’re coming from.Okay, let’s go.Americans on the moon (starting forty years ago): SIX times.Soviet Union: ZERO.Phelps is from Maryland. The difference between Maryland and New York is NOT the same as the differences between Scotland and England. I’ve traveled through both England and Scotland, and I can assure you that the Scots do not consider themselves as just another administrative unit like a state in the United States. If you think so, then you better talk to a few Scots in the future.Have you ever heard of people enthusing about getting front-row tickets to a track cycling event?! I can just imagine that in 2012 the BBC will have wall-to-wall coverage of the track cycling heats while the rest of the world wonders, “WTF?”It’s obvious that you know very little about WWII. We not only had to save your arses but we had to lend you cash and supplies so you wouldn’t go bankrupt (google the lend-lease program). And that was just the European theater. We also had to defeat the Japanese in the Pacific Theater, where my Dad and two of my uncles fought. My Dad was on Saipan and my Uncle Chuck was on Iwo Jima.I would be interested to hear from any Canadians. I wonder if they know that you consider Canada still part of Great Britain.I note that you side-stepped the ’96 Olympics when Ethiopia beat you in the medal rankings. Hey, but you beat Belarus!He’s American! The only things he opens are his ass (to speak) and his mouth (to stuff hotdogs in so that he can maintain his BMI of 35).This is kind of crude, isn’t it? I’m 5’11″, 175 pounds. Do the math. Lean, mean, and can still run a respectable 400.Soccer is for fakers. I cannot watch the preposterous histrionics of soccer players, where they flail their arms around when another player gets within a foot of them. Jeezus, fricking pansies. Along with running track, I played AMERICAN football, where the threat of REAL, DAMAGING VIOLENCE was present on each and every play. Now THAT was fun. The idea of flailing around like a girl, as you do throughout your matches, is BENEATH CONTEMPT for Americans. Real Americans despise that thespian sport you call “football.”
Hi JeffreyVery quickly, cos I’m falling behind with my work because of this debate!I’m half American, quarter English, quarter Scottish.Yes, I know it’s 12-0 on the moon thing, I was just winding you up.I’ve spoken to loads of Scots (my Dad for example).Yes, some people love it. Don’t dismiss it just cos it’s not your cup of tea.I know!I didn’t say Canada was part of GB; I was referring to the Commonwealth.Yep – we kicked Belarus’ ass – eat it Belarus!Very sorry for being crude.Yes, the fakers detract from the beauty soccer, but it’s great when played well.Your turn:1. Who topped the medals table in the 1964 Olympics?2. Who topped the medals table in the 2008 Olympics?x x x
Jamie,You’re half-American? Hm. Must be one of those anti-American Americans, right? Michael Moore’s tracts must be your usual vade mecums. Now I grant that, with his BMI, Moore could stand to be even more typically anti-American. It’s funny to see that fat slob in a baseball cap and disheveled appearance ranting about American society.I watched the last half of the Brazil-US women’s match and, to tell the truth, I thought it wasn’t a complete waste of time. The women were NOT flailing around, but fighting vigorously for the ball. I think that’s what you mean when you said it’s great when played correctly, right?Okay, 1964 Summer Olympics. US, 36 gold, 90 total; USSR, 30 gold, 96 total. I would call that one a tie. The USSR, and now Russia, always do well in track and field (one of my criteria for being able to claim the top of the ranking in the Summer Olympics).I think we’ve already discussed 2008, right?Even though we’re venting here, I admit that Americans and British also share a lot, and not just language. Compared to Germans (I lived in Germany two different times back in the Eighties), the Americans and British share a sense of humor (with the British winning in the savage put-down department). We both find the French contemptible. Compared to the French, we share an indifference to the culinary arts. Compared to the Russians, we are both disinclined to bow down to authoritarian tyrants, whether they call themselves communists or democrats (one can only imagine the abuse Putin would get if the head of Britain or the US). We both believe in democracy, free speech, rule of law, capitalism, and together we have defeated evil bastards on more than one occasion.Also, our rivalries in literature make both of us better. If you can read English, you can read some of the best literature that the world has produced, from Chaucer and Shakespeare, Melville and Twain, and from Virginia Woolf to Hemingway.And popular music, too. Elvis to Stones and Zappa to Syd Barrett. We’re always listening to each other. It’s all good.
Hi JeffreyThis is very upsetting: I have to agree with you regarding soccer, literature, music etc.I’m not anti-American (my mother, aunts, uncles and cousins are all from the States!). Most of the anti-US things I said were just stereotypical comments designed to get a reaction. Like any country, there are aspects of the culture I like, and aspects I dislike. I love the Americans’ positive attitude to everything; I just get riled by their “we’re the best” outlook. This said, I hate the Brits’ constant over-politeness resulting in pent up anger which is released at the wrong targets when we’re drunk. Pros and cons in every culture really.Well, it’s been fun; a good debate’s always nice. I’m off to trawl the net for more people to argue with.Take care x
Jamie,Okay, we’re cool. We had some good debates.Best of luck.
Good to see the tolerance outbreak!Since posting 19th August, intrigued my first extended forum ‘experience’. Signing off as a Scot, part English, with long spells spent/good friends/ in Jamaica, Australia and US. With tables to prove they all ‘won’!Jeffrey/Jamie – good luck; all yours.