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	<title>Comments on: Salvation through work</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/</link>
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		<title>By: rikfre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1107</link>
		<dc:creator>rikfre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 21:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1107</guid>
		<description>me too, I ate one sour too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>me too, I ate one sour too&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: xcanada2</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1106</link>
		<dc:creator>xcanada2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 02:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1106</guid>
		<description>@tmc

Absolutely!
What an incredible breadth of thinking!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tmc</p>
<p>Absolutely!<br />
What an incredible breadth of thinking!</p>
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		<title>By: tmc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1105</link>
		<dc:creator>tmc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1105</guid>
		<description>Thank&#039;s again @paintcan, you amaze me sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank&#8217;s again @paintcan, you amaze me sometimes.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lovedOne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1104</link>
		<dc:creator>lovedOne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1104</guid>
		<description>The body of
                    B. Franklin, Printer
               (Like the Cover of an Old Book
                    Its Contents torn Out
          And Stript of its Lettering and Gilding)
                 Lies Here, Food for Worms.
               But the Work shall not be Lost;
        For it will (as he Believ&#039;d) Appear once More
              In a New and More Elegant Edition
                    Revised and Corrected
                       By the Author.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The body of<br />
                    B. Franklin, Printer<br />
               (Like the Cover of an Old Book<br />
                    Its Contents torn Out<br />
          And Stript of its Lettering and Gilding)<br />
                 Lies Here, Food for Worms.<br />
               But the Work shall not be Lost;<br />
        For it will (as he Believ&#8217;d) Appear once More<br />
              In a New and More Elegant Edition<br />
                    Revised and Corrected<br />
                       By the Author.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: paintcan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1102</link>
		<dc:creator>paintcan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1102</guid>
		<description>People are forgetting the &quot;leisure class&quot; as Veblen named the well healed who did nothing with their enormous fortunes but spend them? Anyone with any significant wealth - even before the industrial revolution (and even Veblen said it was the rule of historic life) made sure that all they had to do was hire people to do everything for them. They were free to pursue social connections, the arts, humanities and science. The generous or more comfortable sponsored charities and founded schools and colleges. Having leisure was the aim of life, not just here but in every country on earth for most of history.

It not only has Biblical creds but every other religious tradition seemed to want the same thing. That worked best when the world was still primarily at an agricultural level of production. It started to look idiotic with the industrial revolution and democracy. 

But the country must have higher employment or the entire economy is going to seize up and fail. If the only people with spare money - more than enough to live on for generations - are the few working at more than subsistence (and we have raised the bar on what is considered a necessary standard of living) while the rest are making ends meet or failing, it&#039;s not going to survive. The economy lives on demand and if demand weakens the whole edifice gets rickety. That&#039;s what Obama knows. I was never sure of Bush II. I think he saw OBL as a chance to control the entire country for the benefit of his wealthy supporters with a little esprit de corp lite for the rest. I think he wanted imperial conquest without the pain and al the so costs on layaway.. 

Even Louis XIV and Vauban knew that the old regime in France had to devise a better way of apportioning taxation than the Capitation and the various consumption taxes they used. But Louis XIV was afraid to antagonize the nobility by adopting Vauban&#039;s more rational and fairer land taxation system. He even knew taxes had to be raised based on the ability to pay. They had a system that allowed a built in dispensation from taxation the higher one rose in the ranks. Those with the means, connections and leisure to pursue politics knew that was the way to shunt the burden to the least capable of paying without feeling the pain. That’s why that revolution was so savage. That system bred the class hatred that exploded during the revolution. I think both Carlisle and de Tocqueville said the same thing.

We aren&#039;t in quite the same position but getting closer. The &quot;nobility&quot; is now the major corporations and practically anyone with major incomes. The knowledge industries don&#039;t have employment protection for the most part. We now seem to live in a system that is more meritocratic, but tending to shunt the burdens to the least capable of self-defense; except for their idiotic guns under their beds. If they ever have to use them en masse – the jig would be up anyway. They could kiss it all good bye if they ever have to fire a shot. The madness wouldn&#039;t stop with them or when they ran out of ammunition.  

LysanderTucker wants a return to the economies of the Middle Ages. The Taliban is catchy in all sorts of surprising ways. He forgets that the Middle Ages saw the hundred years war and all those with any wealth or power tended to have to live in fortified castles. They weren&#039;t building fortified town walls for their recreation. No unified currency and central control of that currency means no unified country: or not for long anyway. Louis XIV knew that too. I’m sure there are people in this country that would love to be warlords and they are building their arsenals now. Those who want a more competitive workforce to meet the gains of China and the developing world want sweatshop conditions to return and hate the social welfare legislation of the past 100 years. 

We’d sooner or later long for the stability of Louis XIV type absolutist government and that’s probably what we’d get. Without stability, any form of government is disgraced. 

BTW - that mining magnate turned cruise ship operator to rebuild the Titanic, is a fool. The ship will not impress people who take cruises. He would be better to build something with a real future for humanity than waste it on that anachronism. We should be thinking about developing the potential of living on the ocean and not just living a romantic dream.  

It should be obvious that &quot;lebensraum&quot; is still eagerly fought for. And the ocean is more accessible than outer space. I don&#039;t think the modern wealthy elite is particularly brave or risk taking either. 

Another BTW - I don&#039;t think the new Titanic is going to have the decor of the original unless they are building it all of fiberglass, or he was able to buy the sets from the movie? Preview photos I saw don&#039;t show any Louis XV boiserie or Georgian paneling or stained glass anywhere. The Titanic wouldn&#039;t rank high as a luxury ship today even with all the period details. But the dumbest thing of all about that idea: he wants the passengers segregated according to the class distinctions of the original.  That is one hell of a confession of what really animates the wealthy in this society. They are desperate for status and a feeling of exclusivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People are forgetting the &#8220;leisure class&#8221; as Veblen named the well healed who did nothing with their enormous fortunes but spend them? Anyone with any significant wealth &#8211; even before the industrial revolution (and even Veblen said it was the rule of historic life) made sure that all they had to do was hire people to do everything for them. They were free to pursue social connections, the arts, humanities and science. The generous or more comfortable sponsored charities and founded schools and colleges. Having leisure was the aim of life, not just here but in every country on earth for most of history.</p>
<p>It not only has Biblical creds but every other religious tradition seemed to want the same thing. That worked best when the world was still primarily at an agricultural level of production. It started to look idiotic with the industrial revolution and democracy. </p>
<p>But the country must have higher employment or the entire economy is going to seize up and fail. If the only people with spare money &#8211; more than enough to live on for generations &#8211; are the few working at more than subsistence (and we have raised the bar on what is considered a necessary standard of living) while the rest are making ends meet or failing, it&#8217;s not going to survive. The economy lives on demand and if demand weakens the whole edifice gets rickety. That&#8217;s what Obama knows. I was never sure of Bush II. I think he saw OBL as a chance to control the entire country for the benefit of his wealthy supporters with a little esprit de corp lite for the rest. I think he wanted imperial conquest without the pain and al the so costs on layaway.. </p>
<p>Even Louis XIV and Vauban knew that the old regime in France had to devise a better way of apportioning taxation than the Capitation and the various consumption taxes they used. But Louis XIV was afraid to antagonize the nobility by adopting Vauban&#8217;s more rational and fairer land taxation system. He even knew taxes had to be raised based on the ability to pay. They had a system that allowed a built in dispensation from taxation the higher one rose in the ranks. Those with the means, connections and leisure to pursue politics knew that was the way to shunt the burden to the least capable of paying without feeling the pain. That’s why that revolution was so savage. That system bred the class hatred that exploded during the revolution. I think both Carlisle and de Tocqueville said the same thing.</p>
<p>We aren&#8217;t in quite the same position but getting closer. The &#8220;nobility&#8221; is now the major corporations and practically anyone with major incomes. The knowledge industries don&#8217;t have employment protection for the most part. We now seem to live in a system that is more meritocratic, but tending to shunt the burdens to the least capable of self-defense; except for their idiotic guns under their beds. If they ever have to use them en masse – the jig would be up anyway. They could kiss it all good bye if they ever have to fire a shot. The madness wouldn&#8217;t stop with them or when they ran out of ammunition.  </p>
<p>LysanderTucker wants a return to the economies of the Middle Ages. The Taliban is catchy in all sorts of surprising ways. He forgets that the Middle Ages saw the hundred years war and all those with any wealth or power tended to have to live in fortified castles. They weren&#8217;t building fortified town walls for their recreation. No unified currency and central control of that currency means no unified country: or not for long anyway. Louis XIV knew that too. I’m sure there are people in this country that would love to be warlords and they are building their arsenals now. Those who want a more competitive workforce to meet the gains of China and the developing world want sweatshop conditions to return and hate the social welfare legislation of the past 100 years. </p>
<p>We’d sooner or later long for the stability of Louis XIV type absolutist government and that’s probably what we’d get. Without stability, any form of government is disgraced. </p>
<p>BTW &#8211; that mining magnate turned cruise ship operator to rebuild the Titanic, is a fool. The ship will not impress people who take cruises. He would be better to build something with a real future for humanity than waste it on that anachronism. We should be thinking about developing the potential of living on the ocean and not just living a romantic dream.  </p>
<p>It should be obvious that &#8220;lebensraum&#8221; is still eagerly fought for. And the ocean is more accessible than outer space. I don&#8217;t think the modern wealthy elite is particularly brave or risk taking either. </p>
<p>Another BTW &#8211; I don&#8217;t think the new Titanic is going to have the decor of the original unless they are building it all of fiberglass, or he was able to buy the sets from the movie? Preview photos I saw don&#8217;t show any Louis XV boiserie or Georgian paneling or stained glass anywhere. The Titanic wouldn&#8217;t rank high as a luxury ship today even with all the period details. But the dumbest thing of all about that idea: he wants the passengers segregated according to the class distinctions of the original.  That is one hell of a confession of what really animates the wealthy in this society. They are desperate for status and a feeling of exclusivity.</p>
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		<title>By: meiler84</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>meiler84</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>The psychologist Maslow came up with a similar schema called the Hierarchy of Needs. After the basic survival needs are satisfied, humans look for social relations and esteem; personal satisfaction. As Churchill supposedly said: &quot;Work is the curse of the leisure class.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The psychologist Maslow came up with a similar schema called the Hierarchy of Needs. After the basic survival needs are satisfied, humans look for social relations and esteem; personal satisfaction. As Churchill supposedly said: &#8220;Work is the curse of the leisure class.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: act1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>act1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>To an older person the choice might be to hang out at some Senior Center, comparing recent operations and other physical problems, or working among people of different ages and remaining current.  Many elderly prefer the latter, those that can find employment. Some start businesses, such as the handymen who installed my wife&#039;s new kitchen sink.  It&#039;s important to them mentally, physically and economically to be employed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To an older person the choice might be to hang out at some Senior Center, comparing recent operations and other physical problems, or working among people of different ages and remaining current.  Many elderly prefer the latter, those that can find employment. Some start businesses, such as the handymen who installed my wife&#8217;s new kitchen sink.  It&#8217;s important to them mentally, physically and economically to be employed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tmc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1099</link>
		<dc:creator>tmc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1099</guid>
		<description>&quot;Just don’t get sucked into behaviors that keep you from living a full life.&quot;  Good tip.  I have got to stop trolling Reuters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Just don’t get sucked into behaviors that keep you from living a full life.&#8221;  Good tip.  I have got to stop trolling Reuters.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: meiler84</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1098</link>
		<dc:creator>meiler84</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1098</guid>
		<description>as a psychologist I agree with the sentiment of the blogger. There is a universal need to fill time till death. Modern people do this through modern work while hunter gatherers did it through other means. The search for meaning underlies the work, if the economic environment allows this. Obviously, doing something, anything, to survive in a slum, takes precedence. When, however, survival is assured, as in the modern world,then social relations and personal fulfillment come to the fore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as a psychologist I agree with the sentiment of the blogger. There is a universal need to fill time till death. Modern people do this through modern work while hunter gatherers did it through other means. The search for meaning underlies the work, if the economic environment allows this. Obviously, doing something, anything, to survive in a slum, takes precedence. When, however, survival is assured, as in the modern world,then social relations and personal fulfillment come to the fore.</p>
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		<title>By: AuAgExpl</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/2013/02/27/salvation-through-work/comment-page-1/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>AuAgExpl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 01:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/edward-hadas/?p=405#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>Personally, I like work and consider it an essential aspect of who I am. In addition, I also try to DIY many things - home remodeling, gardening, cook most of my meals (versus eating out) rather than working to pay for others to do those things for me. So now I own my house, have a decent savings account and no debt. That is important in this life and allows a freedon to make choices about life - so yes, while work is very important financially, I get a high level of personal satisfaction from all those activities.

Anybody who thinks people who lived in Franklin&#039;s time through ~1940 led a life of leisure, just doesn&#039;t understand what it takes to DIY on a farm - which is where most Americans lived in those days. We have grown accustomed to many things which would have been considered luxuries back in those days. Working hard and being focused while you are at work does not have to be unique to Germany, either. Take your vacations and spend time with your family rather than the TV or surfing the internet. Spend more time doing things instead of vegging out with some electronic device - pretty simple really. I work hard, but still have plenty of time for family, music and sports - along with the activities mentioned above. Just don&#039;t get sucked into behaviors that keep you from living a full life. I don&#039;t think it is all that complicated, but you have to be willing to do more than expect somebody else to figure it out for you. Nobody handed it to me on a silver platter and everything I have I got with my own two hands - that concept has eluded many people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I like work and consider it an essential aspect of who I am. In addition, I also try to DIY many things &#8211; home remodeling, gardening, cook most of my meals (versus eating out) rather than working to pay for others to do those things for me. So now I own my house, have a decent savings account and no debt. That is important in this life and allows a freedon to make choices about life &#8211; so yes, while work is very important financially, I get a high level of personal satisfaction from all those activities.</p>
<p>Anybody who thinks people who lived in Franklin&#8217;s time through ~1940 led a life of leisure, just doesn&#8217;t understand what it takes to DIY on a farm &#8211; which is where most Americans lived in those days. We have grown accustomed to many things which would have been considered luxuries back in those days. Working hard and being focused while you are at work does not have to be unique to Germany, either. Take your vacations and spend time with your family rather than the TV or surfing the internet. Spend more time doing things instead of vegging out with some electronic device &#8211; pretty simple really. I work hard, but still have plenty of time for family, music and sports &#8211; along with the activities mentioned above. Just don&#8217;t get sucked into behaviors that keep you from living a full life. I don&#8217;t think it is all that complicated, but you have to be willing to do more than expect somebody else to figure it out for you. Nobody handed it to me on a silver platter and everything I have I got with my own two hands &#8211; that concept has eluded many people.</p>
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