The issue of Mormon proxy baptisms has resurfaced with the news that the Vatican has written to Catholic dioceses around the world telling them not to provide parish records to the Genealogical Society of Utah. As the Catholic News Service reported last week, the letter calls proxy baptism using these records “detrimental” and says the Vatican did not want Catholic parishes “to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Mormons use genealogical data to find names of people to baptise posthumously, a practice the Roman Catholic Church rejects on theological grounds.
The LDS Church has not yet replied, but the comments section of the Church-owned Deseret News has erupted with hundreds of entries. Many are from Mormons who cannot understand why anyone would object to their baptism of the dead. Several criticise the Vatican for withholding the data, arguing it actually belongs to the general public. Other blogs have also been commenting for (mostly Mormon — see here, here, here, here, here) and against (mostly Catholic — see here, here, here, here, here). There are also critical comments from Mormons and ex-Mormons (see here, here, here).
Most of this commentary misses the point. There is no way either side is going to agree on proxy baptisms; different religions exist precisely because they disagree on fundamental issues. It is also futile to argue about religious freedom, because obviously both Churches have the right to practise their faith. The idea that one religion’s teachings give it a right to another religion’s data is also a non-starter.
The real issue is not theology, but privacy. The Vatican does not recognise Mormon baptisms anyway, so it has long ignored the proxy baptism issue. However thanks to the Internet, large numbers of names of saints, popes and average Catholics have been published in recent years on Mormon baptism lists that are available for all to see. Pontiffs have even been “sealed” in eternal Mormon marriage to fictitious wives despite the celibacy rule for Catholic clergy. Is publishing names for posthumous baptism on the Internet (in its International Genealogical Index – IGI) an invasion of privacy, especially when done without the permission of the living families of the people concerned?
This is not just an issue for Catholics, Jews asked similar questions in the 1990s, after finding Holocaust victims on the IGI. After strong Jewish protests, the Church agreed in 1995 to stop proxy baptising them, a step that seemed to indicate some recognition of a problem. However, names of Jews have continued to appear over the years, including that of Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal in 2006. According to Helen Radkey, a researcher who specialises on the IGI, “In 2008, the Church is still posthumously baptising Jewish Holocaust victims, against the terms of the agreement it signed with Jewish groups on May 3, 1995.”
(NB: The Vatican has had its own issues with offending Jews and Muslims and was roundly criticised for them.)
We have tried asking about the privacy issue in the past but got no answer. The spokespeople at the LDS Church in Salt Lake City were invariably polite, helpfully provided detailed information about Mormon beliefs and said Mormons were “deeply saddened” to learn that some non-Mormons were offended by seeing co-religionists or deceased family members on the IGI. However, they did not address the key question about publishing this. When asked why they did not at least monitor the list, which includes many noted and notorious names, they said too many Mormons submitted too many names every year for proxy baptism for the Church to vet them all. Mormons were supposed to ask living family members before baptising anyone born in the past 95 years, but the records show this is often ignored.
The question here is not about the rights or wrongs of proxy baptism. That is an internal Mormon issue and, since they are performed secretly in temples that non-Mormons cannot enter, it can stay an internal Mormon issue. When the names of those proposed for baptism are published on the Internet for all to see (even if lists with all details of the baptisms are kept in genealogy centres only open to Mormons), is this still an internal affair or does it enter the public sphere?And if it does, what should the LDS Church do to respond to other faiths offended by this? The usual answers — that this is an important Morman practice, a gift to the dead, one that they can decline — have not convinced Jews or Catholics.
While trying to come up with a counter-example to illustrate this problem, I came across a post by Sharon Lindbloom on the Mormon Coffee blog (whose name alone shows it is not orthodox Mormon). She asked what the LDS Church would think if “a powerful and influential group” created a public database of prominent Mormons and “attached to each name is a letter of resignation from LDS Church membership, sent by proxy to Church headquarters in Salt Lake City.” She concluded: “I suspect Latter-day Saints would be very upset over Mormon pioneer proxy resignations from the LDS Church. They may even believe it to be an injustice to the memories of their loved-ones…”
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[...] Jewish groups aren’t alone in qualms about posthumous baptism. Armenian Christian and Russian Orthodox leaders denounced the practice, and earlier this year, the Vatican Congregation for Clergy directed [...]
- Posted by charityBlog » Worse Than Being Politically Incorrect? Being Religiously IncorrectThese baptisms are not meant to be forced on people. They are names (usually donated by the deceased family members.) All the “baptism” is is a blessing on their soul and and invitation to reach salvation through the lds belief system. When they do this- they deceased soul has the opportunity to except this blessing and the Lds faith, or decline it. This is done just so that they have a chance to except the faith in the after life- even if it wasn’t provided for them in this life. (If they so choose). None of it really matters unless they choose to except the blessing. Nobody- including God- has the power to force religion on an unwilling soul.
- Posted by ShanaeI just found out that one of my ancestors from Tudor England was given a proxy baptism by the LDS Church. I am angry. I think it would be hilarious and quite fitting if a very different faith such as Islam or Hinduism would usher in all people of LDS ancestry into their faith postumously and see how LDS families like it. Bet they wouldn’t say “well we don’t believe in that, so it doesn’t matter.” It does matter and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
- Posted by HollyI find this article and the views of a lot of the folks that post to be rather humorous.
1. Most genealogical records are not marked with where they were acquired…but many are
2. If you don’t believe in Mormon baptism for the dead….Uh, why would you care? If you do care that suggests you feel the Mormons have some power over your spirit after death. In either case you have some religious issues to work out.
3. Mormons don’t go near or try to convert Muslims and will never do baptisms for them.
4. “These records are from public sources aggregated by tax payer money.” That is not true, the records from america and other modern coutries…maybe. But most records come from the Catholic church(s). Lets face it the catholic church readily sold those names to the mormon church. Or barter for technologically advanced media if you will.
5. That ash hollow crap has no bearing on anything and is not related to the mormon church in any way.
6. The mountain meadow massacre was not sanctioned by the Mormon church…period. It was undertaken by Mormons who lost their lands and family members to the “SAME” people that were heading out from Missouri…where they had taken mormon land and lives by force with the help and blessing of both the governor and the military. And they stated they were going to do the same in UTAH. Some people overreacted and killed them all. This has nothing to do with the mormon church. To the best of my knowledge the “Mormon” Church is (was) the only religious organization to directly confront the US military and to be under siege by them.
7. You dont have the option to opt out of baptism for the dead….get over it. Just dont accept the work on the other side. Problem solved.
8. “…Given there is considerable difference between the old traditional doctrines and LDS doctrine, there isn’t much negotiating room or even a place for traditional Christian beliefs such as the Nicene and other related creeds.”
This is a statement of ignorance. Do the research read the history….most religions based on christ have the same tenants in the beginning and only change over time. Catholicism is a great example.
9. …”We must remember as Christians that baptism for the dead has been banished from “proper Christian” denominations for about 1800 years now, and for us to let this extremist and unorthodox group of people stomp over the memories of our relatives is foolish and weak. For instance the mormons who want to baptize the jews who died in ww2, they died for there religion i don’t think that now they would say oh your right i would rather be a mormon then a jew after dieing as such.”
lol…really? what would you consider “proper”? List some history… you have no basis in history or fact. Christians did not exist as such “Officially” until Constantine became one and made it the defacto religion.
And that wasnt 1800 years ago.
Anywho, guess it’s entertaining to hear from the ignorant on subjects they have no knowledge of.
- Posted by baccussMy grandmother is 96 and doesn’t want to be posthumously baptized. But one of our relatives (who has recently converted to Mormonism) has stated that this is his intent following her death.
I don’t want to be posthumously baptized, either.
Is there anything we can do to prevent this from happening?
We want to (as politely as possible) decline the LSD offer of eternal salvation. We want privacy. We want our wishes respected, but we don’t know what to do.
- Posted by JenniferHow does one find out if their relatives have been proxyed into the Mormon faith?
- Posted by Edd FarwellOne thing that should not be laughed at can be found at the official LDS website below:
http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/pioneer /19_Ash_Hollow.html
This site continues to state that the murder of women and children was a significant victory. Even the Army admits that it was a massacre on September 3, 1855 against the Little Thunder band of Lakota.
It is hypocritical and sick that the LDS have done proxy baptisms for General William S. Harney, and George Armstrong Custer, but continue to claim that this atrocity was a “significant victory”.
How can proxy baptisms for Jewish Holocaust victims still be done even after the agreement, and at the same time the deasths of another group of victims are referred to with words contrary to history?
- Posted by Mike Mbecause the Mormons have so many false doctrines whatever they do is totally irrelevant and should be laughed at instead of wasting space and time discussing them.
- Posted by alexI visited a local LDS Family Research Center trying to find the source of a birth record on a deceased, Catholic, family member.I’m assuming the information came from Catholic Church records but I was hoping to find out the exact Parish. The volunteer who helped me was very nice but couldn’t seem to retrieve the information from their computer records.
I was referred to the Temple to get theinformation. When I told them I’m non-Mormon, the response I got was blatant “Oh,well!” And that was THAT. No other assistance was offered. The experience was humiliating!
Don’t kid yourselves, LDS isn’t providing all this labor
and information for free. Some LDS affiliate genealogy
website subscriptions are very expensive.
It’s simple to me. They baptised my late, Grandmother’s
sister, without asking permission, but they won’t tell me where her birth record originated.
That’s not benevolence, that’s thievery.
- Posted by DebbieI am a non-Mormon relative of a converted Mormon and worry that my Presbyterian ancestors names will be baptized Mormon. They fought and died for their faith and it wasn’t the Mormon faith! This practise should be illegal.
Also, the LDS is a tax-exempt organization, yet they access and use public records for religious purposes. These public records have been created and upheld with taxpayer’s money. Shouldn’t they have to pay a fee or at least be required to notify the living members of the families that they get off the public records and obtain their consent?
Thousands, even millions of years from now that LDS bunker full of names will survive (it’s eerily built to survive anything) and future generations will think all of us were Mormon.
- Posted by heidiWe must remember as Christians that baptism for the dead has been banished from “proper Christian” denominations for about 1800 years now, and for us to let this extremist and unorthodox group of people stomp over the memories of our relatives is foolish and weak. For instance the mormons who want to baptize the jews who died in ww2, they died for there religion i don’t think that now they would say oh your right i would rather be a mormon then a jew after dieing as such.
- Posted by kevanGreat thoughts will be checking back on your blog often.
- Posted by LDS Art CollectorI think LDS is a crazy organisation but the Vatican has a nerve saying they conduct “erroneous practices”.
What about letting AIDs spread in Africa because of the ludicrously outdated opposition to contraception? What about the wacky practice of metaphorically drinking blood like a vampire and being a symbolic cannibal…yes Im talking about the communion.
- Posted by MarkIn the battle for souls, a little bit of marketing has crept in. Certainly everyone thinks his brand of religion is the correct one. I can’t think anyone believes they belong to the wrong church. Recently, the LDS have been making serious conversion inroads amongst Catholics in Latin and South America in addition to other places including Africa and Asia. It seems to have become a turf thing. While Mormonism was merely an amusement but nothing serious amongst many denominations, they have now recognized that these Mormons have serious and growing influence. Up until now they have been content to stay in Utah and the western US wastelands. But that has changed. Even the august Southern Baptist Conventions Dr. Richard Land has openly acknowledged that the 300,000 Baptist converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has opened Evangelical eyes to the competition.
What makes this growing influence even more troubling to traditional Christianity is Mormons tell people they don’t have to rely on some priest or pastor to interpret scripture or provide the last word on doctrine. Mormons say everyone can find out for themselves whether what they preach is right or not by humbly reading the Book of Mormon and approaching God for a confirmation of whether it is as they say, the restoration of Christ’s original church and His original doctrines. Given there is considerable difference between the old traditional doctrines and LDS doctrine, there isn’t much negotiating room or even a place for traditional Christian beliefs such as the Nicene and other related creeds. They even offer New Testament passages as proofs and then say to put everything to the test by asking for Holy Spirit confirmation - even the doctrine the LDS Church teaches.
The interesting thing about how this whole affair has evolved is how the traditional Christians have responded. Rather than acknowledging the effectiveness of recommending people humbly approach God in prayer and fasting as to whether what the traditionalists say is true, they have demonized Mormons and attacked them as an enemy. They have placed the correctness of the Nicene Creed and others as the bedrock of their doctrine and understanding to the point where there is no wiggle room for discussion. If the NC is not correct then much of their religious doctrine is not correct. The traditional Christians have used individual differences between the two doctrines as proof of Mormon heresy. But it is almost always through the lens of the Nicene and other traditional creeds and relies on mankind’s understanding and traditions. But to Mormons, the discussion ought to be whether God has in fact opened the canon and restored prophets and apostles to lead His restored Church. They offer direct access to God as their proof. Their detractors offer tradition and the understanding of men as their proof. Or so it seems to me.
- Posted by JLFI have enquired several times of LDS members whether or not the Muslim dead are ‘baptised’ without the consent of their living relatives. I have never received any response. I suppose that any admission that it did occur might result in a more dramatic response than that from the Jews or Catholics but any denial would be interpreted as a refusal to undertake work that the ‘prophets’ claimed to be vital.
- Posted by EstabanOk people,
I have seen a plethora of misconceptions listed on this blog. Please, please, please, do not assume what the LDS church believes or practices just because of what you see in one article or hear from a few different people.
If you want to form an opinion about and discuss the beliefs of the LDS church, please make sure that you first actually understand what the LDS church teaches and practices. Talk to an active member of the LDS church. Visit http://www.mormon.org. Whatever you do, please do not form assumptions based on random comments posted on some message board.
- Posted by Cliff“Ken - How many people have lived leaving no written, verifiable record of their existence? Would a ‘loving merciful God’ penalize a deceased person for not living in a society or circumstance where records were kept? Are these people out of luck, denied their heavenly reward for circumstances beyond their control, denied their means to ‘return to Him’? If the answer is no, then why must anyone be baptized by proxy? In my experience, such questions are ducked by the membership and leadership of the LDS church. I was raised in an LDS household and find the theology of the church riddled with such inconsistencies and gaps in logic.”
I’m not sure who in the church has ever “ducked” any questions like this, but here is an answer from a member of the LDS church.
God expects us to do all we can with all we have, and whatever we are unable to do before Christ returns will be made possible during the millenium when he reigns on the earth before the last and final judgement day.
You are right about one thing - a loving God will not allow one to be eternally damned just because his records don’t exist. Christ said: “I know my sheep, and am known of mine.” He will provide the way for that work to be done.
The only inconsistencies you find in the LDS church are those you manufacture in your own mind by refusing to look at the things you were (or at least ought to have been taught) in your LDS upbringing.
- Posted by Cliff