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	<title>Comments on: Catholic-Mormon tension over LDS baptism of the dead</title>
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/</link>
	<description>Religion, faith and ethics</description>
	<pubDate>Wed,  9 Jul 2008 07:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: LDS Art Collector</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-4578</link>
		<dc:creator>LDS Art Collector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-4578</guid>
		<description>Great thoughts will be checking back on your blog often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great thoughts will be checking back on your blog often.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3531</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3531</guid>
		<description>I think LDS is a crazy organisation but the Vatican has a nerve saying they conduct "erroneous practices".

What about letting AIDs spread in Africa because of the ludicrously outdated opposition to contraception? What about the wacky practice of metaphorically drinking blood like a vampire and being a symbolic cannibal...yes Im talking about the communion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think LDS is a crazy organisation but the Vatican has a nerve saying they conduct &#8220;erroneous practices&#8221;.</p>
<p>What about letting AIDs spread in Africa because of the ludicrously outdated opposition to contraception? What about the wacky practice of metaphorically drinking blood like a vampire and being a symbolic cannibal&#8230;yes Im talking about the communion.</p>
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		<title>By: JLF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3527</link>
		<dc:creator>JLF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 15:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3527</guid>
		<description>In the battle for souls, a little bit of marketing has crept in. Certainly everyone thinks his brand of religion is the correct one. I can't think anyone believes they belong to the wrong church. Recently, the LDS have been making serious conversion inroads amongst Catholics in Latin and South America in addition to other places including Africa and Asia. It seems to have become a turf thing. While Mormonism was merely an amusement but nothing serious amongst many denominations, they have now recognized that these Mormons have serious and growing influence. Up until now they have been content to stay in Utah and the western US wastelands. But that has changed. Even the august Southern Baptist Conventions Dr. Richard Land has openly acknowledged that the 300,000 Baptist converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has opened Evangelical eyes to the competition. 

What makes this growing influence even more troubling to traditional Christianity is Mormons tell people they don't have to rely on some priest or pastor to interpret scripture or provide the last word on doctrine. Mormons say everyone can find out for themselves whether what they preach is right or not by humbly reading the Book of Mormon and approaching God for a confirmation of whether it is as they say, the restoration of Christ's original church and His original doctrines. Given there is considerable difference between the old traditional doctrines and LDS doctrine, there isn't much negotiating room or even a place for traditional Christian beliefs such as the Nicene and other related creeds. They even offer New Testament passages as proofs and then say to put everything to the test by asking for Holy Spirit confirmation - even the doctrine the LDS Church teaches. 

The interesting thing about how this whole affair has evolved is how the traditional Christians have responded. Rather than acknowledging the effectiveness of recommending people humbly approach God in prayer and fasting as to whether what the traditionalists say is true, they have demonized Mormons and attacked them as an enemy. They have placed the correctness of the Nicene Creed and others as the bedrock of their doctrine and understanding to the point where there is no wiggle room for discussion. If the NC is not correct then much of their religious doctrine is not correct. The traditional Christians have used individual differences between the two doctrines as proof of Mormon heresy. But it is almost always through the lens of the Nicene and other traditional creeds and relies on mankind's understanding and traditions. But to Mormons, the discussion ought to be whether God has in fact opened the canon and restored prophets and apostles to lead His restored Church. They offer direct access to God as their proof. Their detractors offer tradition and the understanding of men as their proof. Or so it seems to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the battle for souls, a little bit of marketing has crept in. Certainly everyone thinks his brand of religion is the correct one. I can&#8217;t think anyone believes they belong to the wrong church. Recently, the LDS have been making serious conversion inroads amongst Catholics in Latin and South America in addition to other places including Africa and Asia. It seems to have become a turf thing. While Mormonism was merely an amusement but nothing serious amongst many denominations, they have now recognized that these Mormons have serious and growing influence. Up until now they have been content to stay in Utah and the western US wastelands. But that has changed. Even the august Southern Baptist Conventions Dr. Richard Land has openly acknowledged that the 300,000 Baptist converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has opened Evangelical eyes to the competition. </p>
<p>What makes this growing influence even more troubling to traditional Christianity is Mormons tell people they don&#8217;t have to rely on some priest or pastor to interpret scripture or provide the last word on doctrine. Mormons say everyone can find out for themselves whether what they preach is right or not by humbly reading the Book of Mormon and approaching God for a confirmation of whether it is as they say, the restoration of Christ&#8217;s original church and His original doctrines. Given there is considerable difference between the old traditional doctrines and LDS doctrine, there isn&#8217;t much negotiating room or even a place for traditional Christian beliefs such as the Nicene and other related creeds. They even offer New Testament passages as proofs and then say to put everything to the test by asking for Holy Spirit confirmation - even the doctrine the LDS Church teaches. </p>
<p>The interesting thing about how this whole affair has evolved is how the traditional Christians have responded. Rather than acknowledging the effectiveness of recommending people humbly approach God in prayer and fasting as to whether what the traditionalists say is true, they have demonized Mormons and attacked them as an enemy. They have placed the correctness of the Nicene Creed and others as the bedrock of their doctrine and understanding to the point where there is no wiggle room for discussion. If the NC is not correct then much of their religious doctrine is not correct. The traditional Christians have used individual differences between the two doctrines as proof of Mormon heresy. But it is almost always through the lens of the Nicene and other traditional creeds and relies on mankind&#8217;s understanding and traditions. But to Mormons, the discussion ought to be whether God has in fact opened the canon and restored prophets and apostles to lead His restored Church. They offer direct access to God as their proof. Their detractors offer tradition and the understanding of men as their proof. Or so it seems to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Estaban</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3520</link>
		<dc:creator>Estaban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 21:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3520</guid>
		<description>I have enquired several times of LDS members whether or not the Muslim dead are 'baptised' without the consent of their living relatives. I have never received any response. I suppose that any admission that it did occur might result in a more dramatic response than that from the Jews or Catholics but any denial would be interpreted as a refusal to undertake work that the 'prophets' claimed to be vital.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have enquired several times of LDS members whether or not the Muslim dead are &#8216;baptised&#8217; without the consent of their living relatives. I have never received any response. I suppose that any admission that it did occur might result in a more dramatic response than that from the Jews or Catholics but any denial would be interpreted as a refusal to undertake work that the &#8216;prophets&#8217; claimed to be vital.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3519</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 17:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3519</guid>
		<description>Ok people,

I have seen a plethora of misconceptions listed on this blog. Please, please, please, do not assume what the LDS church believes or practices just because of what you see in one article or hear from a few different people.

If you want to form an opinion about and discuss the beliefs of the LDS church, please make sure that you first actually understand what the LDS church teaches and practices. Talk to an active member of the LDS church. Visit www.mormon.org. Whatever you do, please do not form assumptions based on random comments posted on some message board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok people,</p>
<p>I have seen a plethora of misconceptions listed on this blog. Please, please, please, do not assume what the LDS church believes or practices just because of what you see in one article or hear from a few different people.</p>
<p>If you want to form an opinion about and discuss the beliefs of the LDS church, please make sure that you first actually understand what the LDS church teaches and practices. Talk to an active member of the LDS church. Visit <a href="http://www.mormon.org." rel="nofollow">http://www.mormon.org.</a> Whatever you do, please do not form assumptions based on random comments posted on some message board.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3518</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 17:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3518</guid>
		<description>"Ken - How many people have lived leaving no written, verifiable record of their existence? Would a ‘loving merciful God’ penalize a deceased person for not living in a society or circumstance where records were kept? Are these people out of luck, denied their heavenly reward for circumstances beyond their control, denied their means to ‘return to Him’? If the answer is no, then why must anyone be baptized by proxy? In my experience, such questions are ducked by the membership and leadership of the LDS church. I was raised in an LDS household and find the theology of the church riddled with such inconsistencies and gaps in logic."

I'm not sure who in the church has ever "ducked" any questions like this, but here is an answer from a member of the LDS church.

God expects us to do all we can with all we have, and whatever we are unable to do before Christ returns will be made possible during the millenium when he reigns on the earth before the last and final judgement day.

You are right about one thing - a loving God will not allow one to be eternally damned just because his records don't exist. Christ said: "I know my sheep, and am known of mine." He will provide the way for that work to be done.

The only inconsistencies you find in the LDS church are those you manufacture in your own mind by refusing to look at the things you were (or at least ought to have been taught) in your LDS upbringing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ken - How many people have lived leaving no written, verifiable record of their existence? Would a ‘loving merciful God’ penalize a deceased person for not living in a society or circumstance where records were kept? Are these people out of luck, denied their heavenly reward for circumstances beyond their control, denied their means to ‘return to Him’? If the answer is no, then why must anyone be baptized by proxy? In my experience, such questions are ducked by the membership and leadership of the LDS church. I was raised in an LDS household and find the theology of the church riddled with such inconsistencies and gaps in logic.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure who in the church has ever &#8220;ducked&#8221; any questions like this, but here is an answer from a member of the LDS church.</p>
<p>God expects us to do all we can with all we have, and whatever we are unable to do before Christ returns will be made possible during the millenium when he reigns on the earth before the last and final judgement day.</p>
<p>You are right about one thing - a loving God will not allow one to be eternally damned just because his records don&#8217;t exist. Christ said: &#8220;I know my sheep, and am known of mine.&#8221; He will provide the way for that work to be done.</p>
<p>The only inconsistencies you find in the LDS church are those you manufacture in your own mind by refusing to look at the things you were (or at least ought to have been taught) in your LDS upbringing.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3517</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 17:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3517</guid>
		<description>"How dare they think they can disrespect another religion and forcibly baptize a dead person. Sounds like a cheap desperate attempt at obtaining new converts, even dead ones at that!"

Why do you assume that we believe we are forcing ayone into anything? We only believe that we are offering people a choice to accept an ordinance necessary for their salvation.

They can choose whether they accept it or not.

On a very simple level, baptism for those who have passed on is no different than if I were to offer a drink of lemonade, even though you usually drink sasparilla. All that has happened is I have offered you a drink that is different than what you have known. What is offensive about that? If you don't want it, you don't have to drink it. The only one who is out anything by the offer is me, and that was my choice to put forth the effort.

The LDS church is NOT trying to force anyone into anything - living or dead. We merely want to give our ancestors the opportunity to accept something that is necessary for them, but they can no longer do for themselves because they have passed away. It is an OFFER, and not even intended to be coercive in the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How dare they think they can disrespect another religion and forcibly baptize a dead person. Sounds like a cheap desperate attempt at obtaining new converts, even dead ones at that!&#8221;</p>
<p>Why do you assume that we believe we are forcing ayone into anything? We only believe that we are offering people a choice to accept an ordinance necessary for their salvation.</p>
<p>They can choose whether they accept it or not.</p>
<p>On a very simple level, baptism for those who have passed on is no different than if I were to offer a drink of lemonade, even though you usually drink sasparilla. All that has happened is I have offered you a drink that is different than what you have known. What is offensive about that? If you don&#8217;t want it, you don&#8217;t have to drink it. The only one who is out anything by the offer is me, and that was my choice to put forth the effort.</p>
<p>The LDS church is NOT trying to force anyone into anything - living or dead. We merely want to give our ancestors the opportunity to accept something that is necessary for them, but they can no longer do for themselves because they have passed away. It is an OFFER, and not even intended to be coercive in the least.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3516</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 17:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3516</guid>
		<description>"THEY TAKE OUR HISTORY! And put it in the temples where non-Mormons are forbidden."

Um, no. They don't. They keep any history they have in a climate controlled vault and they make all the information as accessible to all as possible.

And if they take any originals, it would only be with permission of the Catholic Church - and access by the Catholic church to those originals would NEVER be restricted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;THEY TAKE OUR HISTORY! And put it in the temples where non-Mormons are forbidden.&#8221;</p>
<p>Um, no. They don&#8217;t. They keep any history they have in a climate controlled vault and they make all the information as accessible to all as possible.</p>
<p>And if they take any originals, it would only be with permission of the Catholic Church - and access by the Catholic church to those originals would NEVER be restricted.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3515</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 17:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3515</guid>
		<description>“I suspect Latter-day Saints would be very upset over Mormon pioneer proxy resignations from the LDS Church. They may even believe it to be an injustice to the memories of their loved-ones…”

Um, NO. I, as a member of the LDS church could frankly care less. Please do not create assumptions based on your personal values and apply them to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I suspect Latter-day Saints would be very upset over Mormon pioneer proxy resignations from the LDS Church. They may even believe it to be an injustice to the memories of their loved-ones…”</p>
<p>Um, NO. I, as a member of the LDS church could frankly care less. Please do not create assumptions based on your personal values and apply them to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Not Religious</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3469</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Religious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 01:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/#comment-3469</guid>
		<description>Mormons cannot impose their will on the dead, get over, freewill is God given and not subject to Mormon opinion. How dare they think they can disrespect another religion and forcibly baptize a dead person. Sounds like a cheap desperate attempt at obtaining new converts, even dead ones at that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons cannot impose their will on the dead, get over, freewill is God given and not subject to Mormon opinion. How dare they think they can disrespect another religion and forcibly baptize a dead person. Sounds like a cheap desperate attempt at obtaining new converts, even dead ones at that!</p>
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