President-elect Barack Obama has been getting a lot of advice these days on how to deal with Muslims and Islam. He invited it by saying during his campaign that he either wanted to convene a conference with leaders of Muslim countries or deliver a major speech in a Muslim country “to reboot America’s image around the world and also in the Muslim world in particular”. But where? when? why? how? Early this month, I chimed in with a pitch for a speech in Turkey or Indonesia. Some quite interesting comments have come in since then.
(Photo: Obama image in Jakarta, 25 Oct 2008/Dadang Tri)
Two French academics, Islam expert Olivier Roy and political scientist Justin Vaisse argued in a New York Times op-ed piece on Sunday that Obama’s premise of trying to reconcile the West and Islam is flawed:
Such an initiative would reinforce the all-too-accepted but false notion that “Islam” and “the West” are distinct entities with utterly different values. Those who want to promote dialogue and peace between “civilizations” or “cultures” concede at least one crucial point to those who, like Osama bin Laden, promote a clash of civilizations: that separate civilizations do exist. They seek to reverse the polarity, replacing hostility with sympathy, but they are still following Osama bin Laden’s narrative.
Instead, Mr. Obama, the first “post-racial” president, can do better. He can use his power to transform perceptions to the long-term advantage of the United States and become a “post-civilizational” president. The page he should try to turn is not that of a supposed war between America and Islam, but the misconception of a monolithic Islam being the source of the main problems on the planet: terrorism, wars, nuclear proliferation, insurgencies and the like.
Also on Sunday, the Istanbul newspaper Sunday’s Zaman ran a piece by sociologist Dogu Ergil who spelled out what he thought “moderate Muslims” expected of Obama.
(Photo: Blue Mosque in Istanbul, 9 Dec 2008/Tan Shung Sin)
Moderate or non-ideological Muslims expect Mr. Obama to support democratic trends in their countries, but not to push them from above using ruling elites that will never adopt a democratic agenda but rather will simply play for time, making only cosmetic changes. This will, in turn, further reinforce the power of autocratic regimes that are threatened by genuine democracy.
Muslim moderates look at religion as a cultural affair, wanting to render it autonomous of politics so that it will be protected from political power and in the same way, preventing it from seeking political power. So they want the Obama administration to press their governments to enact reforms that will pave the way to democratic politics and legal changes that will allow for more individual freedoms. They do not want a hypocritical stance from an America which advocates democracy but supports the most authoritarian regimes in the Arab world for the sake of oil deals and other strategic ends. The Bush administration set a very bad example of paying lip service to democracy, which, in fact, worked as a vehicle to blackmail Arab regimes and served America’s strategic interests.
Michael Fullilove at the Brookings Institution made a pitch for an Obama speech in Indonesia in the New York Times while several Moroccan blogs have been running a campaign (including a petition with a long list of reasons) to have him speak there. Saad Eddin Ibrahim, an exiled Egyptian sociologist and human rights who is a visiting professor at Harvard and Indiana universities, made the case for Indonesia or Turkey in the Washington Post.
Maleeha Lodhi, a former Pakistani ambassador in the United States and Britain, has a long list of suggestions for a reformed U.S. policy towards the Muslim world in the Harvard International Review. The list is fairly extensive, although it would have been even more informative if it had included suggestions for what should change in the Muslim world.
(Photo: Badshahi Mosque in Lahore, Pakistan, 21 Dec 2007/Mohsin Raza)
How Obama manages issues in the Muslim world will determine the success or failure of his foreign policy…
In the Muslim world … perceptions have been shaped by decades of uneven handed policies and by US double standards that placed the security of Israel and the need for cheap oil above considerations of international law and justice for the Palestinians. In essence, Muslims regard US policies as responsible for the trust gap between the United States and the Islamic world. In the West, opinions concerning the cause for the gap with the Muslim world are more mixed. The most common view attributes this rift in relations not only to US policies but also to factors internal to the Muslim world– to the weakness and contradictions in those societies and particularly to the democratic deficit, which allows radicals to build support for their cause. This, in fact, inspires the idea that the United States should lead efforts to restructure the Muslim world. Irrespective of the reality, both perspectives urge the need to review and recast US foreign policy.
My vote for the most interesting argument goes to Roy and Vaisse, who ask the basic question of what role religion actually plays in the big issues facing Obama.
The truth is, Islam explains very little. There are as many bloody conflicts outside of regions where Islam has a role as inside them. There are more Muslims living under democracies than autocracies. There is no less or no more economic development in Muslim countries than in their equivalent non-Muslim neighbors. And, more important, there exist as many varieties of Muslims as there are adherents of other religions. This is why Mr. Obama should not give credence to the existence of an Islam that could supposedly be represented by its “leaders”.
(Photo: Olivier Roy, 4 Dec 2007/Charles Platiau)
Who are these leaders that President Obama would convene anyway? If he picks heads of state, he will effectively concede Osama bin Laden’s point that Islam is a political reality. If he picks clerics, he will put himself in the awkward position of implicitly representing Christianity — or maybe secularism. In any case, he would meet only self-appointed representatives, most of them probably coming from the Arab world, where a minority of Muslims live.
Do you think Obama should launch a special initiative aimed at the Muslim world, or, as Roy and Vaisse argue, assert that “American values are universal and do not suffer any kind of double standard, and that they could be shared by atheists, Christians, Muslims and others”?
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Sugi,
The Somalian girl complained of rape committed by 3 young men. The Al-Shabab group thought otherwise. That is not taken from the Quran. That’s twisted logic. And let me be specific on this…it takes 4 EYE witnesses to commit someone for ADULTERY (Not Rape and not ‘making out’). Which is virtually impossible.
It also happened to have a tribal element of which the accused were from.
So what the Al-Shabab group did…was not implemented from the Quran. They purposely made a false accusation.
Slavery actually exists everywhere, but not in name. Forced prostitution, labourers, etc. This is true in the States as well and is illegal. There is virtually no constitution anywhere that allows it.
Not every Arab country or non-Arab Muslim country follows the Saudi Wahabi/Salafi/Deobandi laws. They don’t represent either my liberal or literal views on the Quran. Women can very well drive anywhere in the ME, except there.
The woman who received the lashings in Saudi was the most retarded sentencing ever. Her sectarian background (she was Shia) may have played into that prejudice. There is nothing in Islamic law that says that a Woman or man (the man she was with was also ordered to be whipped) gets whipped for simply traveling together. This case is famously highlighted with one of the Prophet’s wives, when she traveled with an unknown stranger.
Hope that helps some of your queries.
- Posted by SafDear Tommy,
If more people thought along your lines, this would be a better world.
I agree with the majority of your points. Seting up a poverty fund is a good idea, arbitration of disputes is a good idea. But implimentation of these programs could be a little iffy. But with good intentions and a little faith, perhaps the world can do it.
Whatever your religion is, I’m wishing you a Joyous and Happy Holiday!
- Posted by AlethiaAlethia,
My thinking is you can stop terrorism only if you decide to address the root cause. 3 Points which should be put by Obama to the islamic world is
1. Laws on Apostacy should be deleted in their statute. Every other religion should be allowed to spread in the muslim country as much as islam should be allowed to spread in other countries.
2. Personal laws are universal & UN should guarantee minimum rights for every citizen which is freedom to wear what they want, freedom to marry whom they want, freedom to practice whatever religion they want.Punishment should be humane not stoning,hanging or chopping limbs. Only if countries abide to these laws should they be allowed to be part of the UN. If they do not qualify then all other UN members should impose sanctions.
3. Un representation I agree to your point.Also i think to eliminate poverty across the globe certain sections of the society who earn above a threshold should be charged a special tax which goes to the UN funding which then distributes it to Poorer countries or people who can be removed from poverty. The justification for that should be their global security.
Once they guarantee these 3 things all disputes of major world issues ( of muslim countries ) should be referred to a arbitration panel of the UN & a definitive time frame needs to be given for resolution. If required referrendum in concerned countries which has to concede the awards has to be initiated so that politics can be eliminated.If Obama can achieve these things it would be the greatest blessing to mankind.
Let us see if reason prevails or a war will be imposed to drive these changes across the world.The movement of the people, by the people, for the people should win not the wills of distorted hate preachers of any religion.
- Posted by tommyMajid, a blanket statement like the one that reader made needs only one case to prove it wrong. It can be called stunningly wrong when there are many such cases to disprove it, as there are in the world today. The statement “Muslims are involved WHEREVER violence breaks out in the world” means that Muslims are involved EVERYWHERE that violence breaks out in the world. Do you really think that?
If you only consider Muslim victims of violence — the only ones mentioned in your comment — that would seem to be correct. But there are not only Muslim victims of violence in the world. What about other cases in the news, like Hindu nationalist violence against Christians in India or the violent army suppression of the Burmese protests led by Buddhist monks? Or the violence of guerrillas like the FARC in Columbia? There were no Muslims involved in those cases, as far as I know.
On the other hand, there have been other recent cases of violence involving Muslims that don’t quite fit your argument. Think of the violence by Muslims against Iraqi Christians. Or Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and elsewhere. You complain about double standards but don’t include these cases in your list.
My conclusion is that blanket statements like this, either about all Muslims being violent or all victims being Muslims, are one-sided arguments that obscure more than they explain.
- Posted by Tom HeneghanTo Magic786: Lets talk Facts
1. “She writes Islam called for stoning of a girl No, its the locals who ordered it not Islam”
No dear Locals implemented what is written in quran.
2. “same people who traded in slavery”
Today there is not even one slave in USA. But even today you can find them in islamic countries.
3. “However Islam gave women rights 1600 YEARS ago and that is a fact”
Even after 1600 years women can not go alone out in Saudi Arabia. She can not drive or work. Most recent news was “A girl was ordered for lashing for getting raped in Saudi Arabia” Her crime she was traveling alone. So much for women rights.
Man can have four wifes.
Man can divorce by saying I divorce three times but women cannot do that.
4. “we (Muslims) ruled India for 800years but still Hinduism/Sikhism/Budism exist in India”
Spread of islam in India was stopped by Marathas and Sikhs. It is a fact that Sikhism was born because Kashmiri Hindus were ordered to accept islam and Sikh Guru’s reply was if logic does not work with your enemies it is time to pickup a sword to fight for right. So please don’t tell a lie that islam peacefully existed with Hinduism and Buddhism. it was stopped by force.
5. “action of some uneducated and foolish muslim is not right but does not mean we are all over billion living in every corner of the world are terrorist”
The foolish muslims are doing all this foolishness in the name of islam and claim they are true to word of quran
You decide who is “ignorant, narrow minded, uneducated, drunken yobs”
- Posted by SugiTo Tommy:
Your proposals are very thought-provoking and intelligent.
Before I respond to them, I would like to emphasize that the world is currently in state of conflict engulfing terrorist elements in the Muslim world and in a host other countries where innocent people from everywhere are being attacked in terrorist incidents. My proposals are based on stabilizing the current dangerous global situation to get on board in these battles all the responsible countries of the world (including the Muslim countries) and to remove any feeling of inequity which dwells among them.
So the stabilization of the world is uppermost in my mind.
Here is my response to your proposals:
A) Yes, there should be veneration of festivals in all countries representing all minorites. But the US should set a good example by doing so.
B) All countries should allow freedom of religion. One example which I’ll give is Saudi Arabia. They haven’t allowed any non-Islamic religious house of worship to be built; they should.
C) Some Islamic countries have personal laws that are religion-based by each community. That is their perogative, although I am happy with the fact that in the US we have only one personal law for all religions. No, I don’t think that UN membership should restrict entry for countries not having the same personal law for all religions.
D) Your point on all countries being represented at the UN is your most well-taken point. It’s a difficult question. I inherently feel that it is important to be all-inclusive, to include small countries. The UN Security Council mechanism is dictatorial to smaller countries. The veto power of only one member crushes any concensus. I agree with you. A better choice is to have a larger body of countries (25?) on a rotating basis every two years with a 2/3 majority needed to pass a resolution.
E) There should be a time limit set right from the start of each program to settle international disputes in the Obama administration.
- Posted by AlethiaResponse to sugi!!
How wonderful USA is, I think it WAS not is that is the difference.
Wasnt it USA, that Nuked the Japanese?
Wasnt it USA, that made a new rules how to handle POW and set a new record how to treat the POW, a perfect example Guatanmo bay or even better Abu Gharib.
Wasnt it USA n handfull countries that do not want to sign the use of cluster bombs?
Wasnt it USA that used Pakistan to dismantle USSR and then left the poor country to deal with it.
Wasnt it USA that has killed so many inncocent in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Wasnt It USA, that helped the same Iraqi dictator when he was fighting the Iranians?
So grow up I can go on a on anway if you think bunch of Lesbian and gays from USA are going to rule the world you are so wrong!!! Thanks
- Posted by AliMr Tom,
“He makes one stunningly false statement — that Muslims are involved wherever violence breaks out in the world — and one that is factually correct”.
Indian army killing inncocent kashmiris, raping women, puting leaders under house arrest.. R they Muslims?
Israli Zionist regime killing inncocent Palestinians, Blockading all sort of humanterian goods getting through, the biggest open prison in the world gaza strip…R they Muslim?
Serbians who mascared Muslims under Europes nose and you still finding mass graves…R they Muslims?
Russians who have levelled chechnya and are involved in so many atrocities..R they Muslims?
USA bombing Iraq, before that has sanctions which only killed innocent children …R they Muslims?
USA/GB n NATO bombing wedding parties in Afghnistan the n deniying they even did it before it was proved that so many inncocent were killed..Were they Muslims?
I see double standard from top to bottom, in reporting for e.g. you watch sky news covering Palestine Israel conflicty they make the viewrs feel like it is Israel that is the victim and Palestinian are the aggressors I know anyone without a twisted mind knows who is the agressor.
Let me tell you when the so called nations who preach democracy, justice etc etc when they start seeing the world from same angale and no double standard there will be no violence. But till we see all this injustice in the world what do you expect? have you not heard the saying what goes arounf comes around!!!
- Posted by MajidTo sugi!!
Firstly this is the wrong forum to talk about “How Islam makes you a better person”. However if I am allowed to answer that, Islam is not a new relgion it is same religion that was handed to Jesus,Mosses then finally Muhammed (P.b.u.h. and all the other prophets). However it was slowly implmented on Earth as you can imagine a person can not change over night so is relgion.
She writes Islam called for stoning of a girl No, its the locals who orederd it not Islam. If you want to understand any religion not only Islam dont look at the actions of their followers but look at the scriptures. I thought someone living in the West was a bit more open minded. I was so wrong how ignorant, narrow minded, uneducated, drunken yobs there are.
What I find so funny the same people who traded in slavery, opressed other nations and robbed them of their wealth, now that they have become so called developed countries want to teach the world how to behave and live. I find it appaling who gives theses nations rights to impose their dirty democracy (NOT even true democracy) on other nations.
Let me tell you, so called developed nations have only in the last century given rights to women. However Islam gave women rights 1600 YEARS ago and that is a fact! Some people here refer that Islam was spread by sword well if it was then we (Muslims) ruled India for 800years but still Hinduism/Sikhism/Budism exist in India. Surely if the Muslim rulers wanted to they would have converted everyone in India. That is living proof Islam is not something you can impose on somebody it is their will n choosing.
Yes I agree action of some uneducated and foolish muslim is not right but does not mean we are all over billion living in every corner of the world are terrorist.
Anyway I would suggest her to read the books and the teaching and compare all the religions and the one gives her most appropriate n suitable answers. One should believe in that if they want to if not live like a athiest if you wish. As we will all go to our graves n their we all have to answer our own actions. Thanks
- Posted by Magic786To Alethia & others who think Obama need a special education on islam:
- Posted by SugiUSA is the best country in this world. May be not perfect but best. The govt does not interfere in anyone’s religion. Everyone is free to follow what ever he wants. Please understand it is not govt that makes Christmas a week long event it is just population. There are just more Christians and free enterprise caters to that demand. US Govt is not in the business of keeping Hindus Jews or Muslims happy by giving the religious holidays as Alethia is suggesting it should do. Neither US Govt is in the business of teaching other countries how to use nuclear power. One of the role which US Govt has is how to keep it’s citizens safe and help other like minded democratic countries. Islam is just another religion. Obama as a US president should not give any special treatment to islam. May be it is time islam has to learn how to live with rest of the world.
Alethia,
I want to know do you support
A) Obama should push for same rights in America in rest of the world including muslim countries. Holidays for major festivals.
B) Can anyone practice any religion in muslim countries & also they can spread their religion in a fearless manner just like muslims can do in the US/other democratic country. If they don’t agree do you think muslims should be disenfranchised in democratic country & also they should be stopped from spreading religion in other countries.
c) Should there be one uniform personal law for every citizen or there should be different personal laws based on religion.Should that be basis for UN membership & trade with other countries.
D)Should international disputes be resolved by UN or US.Rather than having more mebers in security council why is it not better if the 5 permanent members be stripped of their veto rights itself. That is more fair since in that case a country like srilanka can also get represented as much as Jordan.
E) Should Obama push for time bound actions for all disputes.
- Posted by tommyTo Sugi: There is one point that I would like make that is absolutely central to any debate on the realtionship between the new Obama administration and the Muslim world:
The overwhelming majority of Muslims are innocent. They cannot be blamed for the horrific deeds of terrorists. They have suffered the devastating effects of bombings, suicide missions and hotel and resort attacks like everyone else.
One of the reasons for INCLUSION of Muslim interests and concerns in the world decision-making process is to make it easier for innocent Muslims and America (and indeed the international community) to fight against the terrorists who lurk and kill in everybody’s midst.
So,innocent Muslims, the vast majority, are not quilty of the 9/11 tragedy, nor of the Bali bombings, nor of the Mumbai massacre. It’s the terrorists who are quilty for those inhumane attacks.
- Posted by AlethiaSorry, Sugi, your comment was rejected because it started off with charges about Islam and Judaism that don’t belong here.
- Posted by Tom HeneghanTo Sugi: The subject here is the relationship between the incoming Obama administration and the Muslim world, so I was keeping the focus on that.
Certainly, there should be other nations nominated to the UN Security Council, other international conflicts to resolve, other countries the USA should engage in peaceful nuclear development, and holidays of other religions venerated in America.
But the glaring thing about the relationship between America and the Muslim world is EXCLUSION of Muslim concerns and interests. All religions in the world should be INCLUDED be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Bahai, Jain, Parsi, Ahmadis, atheists and others.
Respect and inclusion are the keys to a harmonious world and a sure way to end conflicts.
- Posted by AlethiaDear Sugi, I did not see that comment. There are several editors moderating these comments and this one was apparently handled by someone else. Please send it again now and I will look at it.
- Posted by Tom HeneghanDear Mr. Tom Heneghan
- Posted by SugiMy reference was to my post submitted 2 days back where I asked “How islam makes you a better person” since there is lot of efforts from muslims to convert everyone to islam. Should we not ask in plain language ‘How it makes me a better person’? If Islam called for stoning death of 13 year old girl in Somalia, this fact should be enough for an outcry of the world and the UN. Which is missing.Instead here we are thinking how Obama can please islamic world.
To Alethia:
Why stop here. How about
1. Permanent seat for Israel and Korea and soon Iran.And why not Japan. Believe me they can make nuclear bomb in one month if they want.
2.What about solving dispute of Tibat, Taiwan, Sri Lanka
3. Why not stop bombing twin towers, Bali, Kohl and Mumbai these all are linked with islam.
4. Why not offer same nuclear deal to Iran and Korea
5.What about holidays for Hindus, Chinese, Sikhs, Budhese, Ahmadias and Bahai
It is my opinion that steps taken such as those above will have exponential beneficial effects
- Posted by sugiTo Sugi, I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean. Please be clear about what we are supposed to have censored and what we should be fair about.
- Posted by Tom HeneghanDear Mr. Tom Heneghan
- Posted by SugiYou think it is perfectly OK to allow islamic propaganda published under “Breif introduction of Islam and muslims” by peace. But you will censor any one asking a basic question “Did God ever spoke to any one” All those prophets claiming to revealing God’s word are just good salesmen who sold an idea. Don’t you think any religion based upon concepts written 1000 years back for caravan people might not be good for rest of the world. Please be fair
The following is a list of measures that the new Obama administration should take to win the war against international terrorism and to get enhanced cooperation from responsible countries in the Muslim world:
1) Nominate Pakistan and India for permanent seats on the UN Security Council.
2) Create two international advisory groups whose sole purpose is the resolution of two 60 year-old conflicts: the Israel-Palestinian conflict and the Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan.
3) Stop American drone bombings in Pakistani territory.
4) Offer Pakistan the same nuclear deal that was offered to India.
5) Venerate Muslim religious holidays in America the same way as we have designated Christian and Jewish Holidays.
It is my opinion that steps taken such as those above will have exponential beneficial effects upon the the relationship between America (an indeed the international community) and the Muslim world.
- Posted by Alethia