FaithWorld

Religious Left pushes for healthcare reform

August 7, 2009

America’s “Religious Left” is jumping into the healthcare debate with a plan to launch a “40 Days for Health Reform” initiative starting Monday.

The move comes as conservative resistance hardens to President Barack Obama’s attempts to overhaul America’s healthcare system. This has taken the form of angry scenes at townhall meetings and has been driven in part by the ”Religious Right,” which claims on Christian radio stations and on the blogosphere that, among other things, “Obamacare” will result in taxpayer-funded abortion. That’s a point disputed by most Democrats and their allies. 

OBAMA/

The pro-faith-based healthcare reform campaign is organized by liberal leaning religious groups such as Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good and Faith in Public Life. Borrowing a page from the Religious Right, the conservative Christian movement that rose to prominence in the 1980s and 1990s as a key base for the Republican Party, the campaign will feature prayer rallies and a national TV ad.

 It brings together evangelicals, Catholics and mainline Protestants and  includes heavyweights from the Religious Left such as Jim Wallis, president of Sojourners. There are many people of faith in the United States who believe that coverage needs to be extended to the nearly 46 million Americans with no health insurance because of biblical calls to care for the poor and the sick.

In his campaign for the White House Obama had tapped into the religious community and frequently invoked his own Christian faith. It remains to be seen if the faith community can inject some energy into what some see as a faltering drive at health care reform.

One wonders if this part of Obama’s ambitious domestic agenda has a prayer without such help.

Comments
89 comments so far | RSS Comments RSS

The left is not where the majority of Americans want health care to go. The polls consistently show Americans do not want a government run (or any similar version) health care program.

The American people are speaking loudly and clearly. It really doesn’t matter what the left says, they are the minority voice on this and the other administration and congressional action to force big government control on us.

But to this administration the congress, it doesn’t matter what the majority wants, they are going to try to ram their agenda through. Americans want low taxes and less government.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

I feel very strongly that the President is doing the right thing and urge everyone to support.American should really take a strong look at how the Republican Party is handling this issue have hit a all time Low.My wife is German and I lived there for 17.5 years and they had very good healthcare system that really worked great until the Berlin Wall came down at request of then President Reagan.Immigration overloaded the system simular to what the United States is facing today.Yes this can be done.Americans should remember how low the Republican Party have stumped to prevent healthcare in this country.

Posted by Andrew Wilcox | Report as abusive
 

It is amazing that Americans are finding it hard to understand that Obama’s healthcare plan will help ordinary hardworking families in difficult times. I live in the UK where healthcare is available to all. Yes, we pay extra taxes but it is worth all the extra cash. I realised the benefits when I was unemployed. During that period I had to cancel my life, motor, mortgage premiums temporarily. To top it up I was ill, would I have received free medical care without medical insurance if I was in the US? In the UK, I did. Obama’s healthcare is synonymous to ‘peace of mind in difficult times’. Think again Americans! Support your president, you may not always be well off to afford medical insurance.

Posted by Goldsworthy Davies | Report as abusive
 

15% of GDP.

20% of GDP.

Imperfect solutions.

Government run healthcare (Medicare?, Medicaid?, VA?, Tricare?)

Don’t touch my Medicare! Don’t touch my employer sponsored plan (just lower my copays)! Insure the uninsured! Reduce the deficit! Let the private sector do it! Don’t raise my taxes!

There is no healthcare crisis!

Believe it or not, these problems will resolve themselves over time. The cost of inaction will be measured in lost lives and suffering.

 

I want Universal Health Care. We have a right to health care, just as we have a right to Police and Fire protection. Insurance is too expensive because the insurance companies make a profit from us.

Posted by Bruce Gordon | Report as abusive
 

Interestingly political parities and their likewise self-seeking
compliant and obedient followers, dependents, and fawning parasites continue lie. It has been so for all of recorded history. Be that as it will probably always be, and only speaking for myself, if higher(?) taxes will get health/medical coverage for all legal citizens of the United States of America , I am all for doing so. Though it is not the only way that I look at it, but is one good way of looking at it since I am a veteran, the U.S. Military has a very effective socialistic medical/health system that works well off of tax dollars, and does not need profiteering for the health/medical professionals to do their jobs really well. If such a system is good enough for the greatest military in the world, one that has proven time-and-time again to be so, then it is good enough for all who are legal residents of this nation called the United States of America.

Posted by Gerard | Report as abusive
 

Andrew the republicans are not the ones who are the thorns in this issue. You need to understand that the democrats do not need even one republican vote in the house or senate to pass this horrendous health care plan.

It is the fiscally conservative democrats, commonly referred to as “blue dogs”, who are providing the thorns in this issue. The democrat party cannot come to consensus on this. It shows that that democratic process is indeed working. In addition, when the senate appeared to make cosmetic changes in order to bring the blue dogs democrats back (only a few did so), the liberal element in the senate balked and their support waned.

The president is not doing the right thing by trying to force Americans on a health care plan they do not want. His support is falling fast, his policies are against what the American people want (they want lower taxes and less government). He does not know better what we need. All he wants to do is win and to control our lives. That part is obvious.

No government run health care system has ever worked and it not working now. It comes with long delays in treatment leading to severe quality of life issues. Rationing is a fact of life under any socialized government run system and it would be a travesty if it were to take hold here. We still have the best health care system in the world and this government wants to ruin it for the 75 percent who have good health coverage and don’t want to change.

So, please go back to Germany if you like government run health insurance. Your comments on how the system isn’t working there, is proof positive socialized medicine does not work.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

The Insurance companies are milking every dollar the can from the insured with decreasing benefits. They are also rationing Medicare to their benefit.

Posted by Dr. | Report as abusive
 

Hey TC (12:12AM) – What do think Medicare is? The VA health care system? They are government systems that people have NEVER proposed eliminating because they don’t want a government run program. Furthermore, polls do NOT show that the majority are opposed to what Congress and Obama are proposing. Please, don’t speak for me by referencing “Americans” as though you you know how everyone in the country feels. Speak for yourself and get your facts straight. The ignorance reverberating from folks that don’t have time for complex information and meaningful consideration is deafening.

Posted by Kaye Byrnes | Report as abusive
 

Andrew Wilcox: Please return to Germany. Not only will you have better health care, you won’t find any Republicans to bother you (except on the news).

Posted by D Proteus | Report as abusive
 

You are totally right TC. The only taxes that we should be paying are the ones that I will have to pay along with my children so that we can be off the hook with China.

What we need to do is keep attacking middle eastern countries because the threat of terrorism is everywhere! In fact, I wouldn’t be suprised if healthcare reform weren’t some kind of huge terrorist plot to destroy our western ideals!

Come on, seriously, where has the conservative right in this country gone? You know I was a registered independent. I’ve voted on both party lines in both local and national elections, but the republican party needs something besides these same old scare tactics. People are tired of being afraid. Makes you wonder why “Hope” worked so well? No not really, because I just told you the answer.

So stop spouting out the same old fox news nonsense and create some real arguements.

Posted by Phillip | Report as abusive
 

Instantaniously, TC gets it wrong. Another blathering moron who supports the insurance industry over the American people. SHAME ON YOU.

First of all, no one suggested that “health care go to the “left”". NO WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN–IT IS YOUR DERANGED ASSuMPTION.

The article says that the “Religious Left” will join in to fight FOR healthcare reform, and against the battle waged by the “religious right” against it.

I say it is about damx time.

Posted by nors | Report as abusive
 

As an American citizen and military veteran who lived in Europe for 10 years I can testify that Universal Healthcare works brilliantly, and is the norm in every civilized nation on the planet. It was reported this week that the health insurance companies are spending 1.4 million dollars per day in advertising to defeat President Obama’s health care reform….they are spending a lot of money to defeat this legislation, and one can only imagine how much money they are providing to the “representatives of the people” who seem content to continue selling the American people down the river in order to feather their own pockets. Ask a Canadian if they would give up their National Health Care, or a German, or a Swede. These are not backwards nations, nor enemies of freedom. We must not allow our future to be determined by mercenary corporations who profit from the misery of the poor and the sick………ask yourself, oh people of faith, what would Jesus do?

Posted by james cottrill | Report as abusive
 

This is all about money! The insurance companies who have a stranblehold on our economy do not intend to let go. This industry would sooner let America fail than to give up one iota of profit. The politicians who are bought and paid for will be very vocal against anyone else having the same opportunities as themselves. Someone should check into who is paying for these disrupters travel arrangements. They are not local people; they are carpetbaggers who work for the highest bidder. They intentionaly target the easily provoked, less educated person and then sit in the background. Someone should photograph these people; you will see the same faces at all these “meetings.” Those people need to be exposed.

Posted by Gilboagirl | Report as abusive
 

Multiple sections of the proposed health/death bill violate several moral principles of Scriptures. The Bible does mention “caring for the poor and sick,” but not by robbing and pilfering the productive citizens via onerous taxation and massive governmental redistributions. The end does not justify the proposed means. The Religious Left are utopian socialists, charlatans, “white-washed tombs.”

Posted by TruthTeller | Report as abusive
 

Wow TC! where did you get those “facts”? I guess from your butt. Polls consistently show a sizeable majority want a public option in reform. As to being “the minority” I guess you werent around on November 4th 2008. Only wingnuts can deny reality to the point of insanity. Have fun with that! Not being one to publish “facts” without proof like you, see the links that back them up below. Of course you will deny those facts too, and yell as loud as you can: LIBERAL MEDIA!!!!!! .http://www.time.com/time/politics/artic le/0,8599,1913426,00.htmlhttp://www.cbsn ews.com/stories/2009/06/19/opinion/polls  /main5098517.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/health  /policy/21poll.html

Posted by A.Payne | Report as abusive
 

Contrary to the opinion expressed by TC, the public does support a public plan.

http://www.harrisi.org/harris_poll/Harri sPollByDate2009.asp
July 30, 2009
http://www.harrisi.org/harris_poll/pubs/ Harris_Poll_2009_07_29.pdf

•?A 68% majority thought a public plan would be a valuable alternative to private insurance;
• A 63% majority thought that it would help to keep insurance costs down; and
• A 55% majority thought it would help patients to get better care.
• A 55% majority agreed it would reduce the freedom of patients to choose the doctors and treatments they want, but
• A 54% majority disagreed that it would be “too much like socialism,” and
• A 56% majority disagreed that it would drive insurance companies out of business.

Health Care Resource Index
http://www.aarp.org/community/edsilha/jo urnals/

 

As a physician, I can say that the present patchwork “system” fails to provide effective, efficient and ethical care to all, even those with insurance coverage. The insurance companies should be held financially responsible for their interference with complete and compassionate care, and the bad events that have occurred to those under their contracts. There is now a large disease and frustration burden in the population due to their malignant and short-sighted behavior. The whole point of insurance is to spread out risk over a population and this can be satisfied by a single-payer system.

Physicians would be in charge of managing cases and since there would be no way to hide or “dump” high risk cases and bad outcomes, the system would have to become more effective and ethical. No one would be denied care for any reason. The present system does not allow for timely and effective oversight. Physicians, hospitals, insurance companies and the for-profit motive in general, do not serve individual patients or the population at large. Systemic problems such as psychopathic providers, healthcare fraud, emotional and physical abuse, and failed safety cultures are allowed to persist now. In the present system, even those with insurance are subjected to risk. Malpractice reform will need to include health courts to better assess and mitigate bad outcomes, and to increase reporting which at present occurs only in limited cases, often with retaliation to the patient.

Enact a single-payer, “Americare” system now for all those in Medicaid, Medicare, VA and other government programs. Proceed with a gradual, planned obsolescence of the insurance contracts with the goal of a single-payer system that truly serves everyone.

Posted by SM | Report as abusive
 

This is why people who “Use the Bible” should not be allowed in Politics.

“because of biblical calls to care for the poor and the sick”

What of the biblical calls for slavery, even sex slaves, in Deuteronomy?

Or reasons and laws calling for Killing anyone who dares to question a “priest”?

The problem with the “Bible” is people pick and chose the parts in it that help them get what they want, using God and the bible for their wishes, Cherry picking passages so to speak. Fundamentalist Islams do the same thing, Cults do the same thing, pick passages out of a book to used and exploit God and his love.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive
 

Statements like “The polls consistently show Americans do not want a government run (or any similar version) health care program,” would carry more weight if it weren’t also true that many of the people expressing this perspective love Medicare and are completely ignorant of the fact that it is a government-run program. After 30 years of anti-government propaganda and efforts to privatize EVERYTHING, from K-12 education to Social Security (based on the misguided assumption that the private sector is trustworthy and does everything better) it’s no wonder so many people are confused.

The NeoCons and right wing propagandists have been following Joseph Goebbels’ advice, with great effectiveness, for over 30 years—and getting away with implementation of policies that have nearly devastated this nation. (Goebbels was Germany’s Reich Minister for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda from 1933-1945, for those who are unfamiliar with the name.)

Goebbels said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.” (Keep in mind that Geobbels’ “State” had nothing to do with government of the people, by the people, for the people, but was a Fascist state in which the people served the combined power of autocratic leadership working closely with a business/military-industrial complex.)

I suppose we can see the current economic debacle as part of the breaking of Goebbels’ shield. AIG, Worldcom, Merrill Lynch, etc., were the inevitable result of implementing the belief that government can’t be trusted, that we can rely on the private sector and “market forces” to make everything work for everyone, and other bizarre ideas that run counter to common sense and most people’s experience. And the increasing number of uninsured and underinsured, the steep rise in insurance rates, the decline in American’s overall health, etc., are all common sense indicators that our for-profit, private insurance model does not serve us and, therefore, must be changed.

In a nation where government is designed to be “of the people, by the people, for the people,” we each have the responsibility to question the ideas being presented to us by leaders, experts, the media, and each other; to test them against our real life experience; and to challenge those that do not ring true. Extremists of all kinds may forget how to engage in this kind of public discourse, but I believe most of us will continue to talk with each other, and find our way through all these lies—no matter how much money is put into the propaganda effort to promote them. The shield against the consequences of a healthcare system that primarily serves industry executives is breaking. Through questioning and discussion, we will find our way to a answers to our shared problems that “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,(and) promote the general Welfare…”

Posted by Carla Kincaid-Yoshikawa | Report as abusive
 

What do we need to be strong country? Shoutting like third world country politician. A true Citzen dont make noise around .

 

My brother is a cardiologist who has worked both for a public hospital and is now employed at a VA hospital, and I have spoken at length with him on the differences between the two. Hands down the VA system is the gold standard.

At the VA, if a patient needs a pacemaker, it is simply scheduled for him/her and done. In a public hospital, he has to “justify” to the insurance company that the patient is in need of such treatment.

So, for those of you under the delusion that currently doctors are in control of your treatment, think again. It is hands down without a doubt the insurance industry that is rationing out medicine based on its goals (of for profit).

 

Look at the Rasmussen polls and you will clearly see the majority of Americans do not want this “government” health care plan. It is a fiasco and the majority of Americans do not want it.

I have a lot of family who are part of the Canadian system. They don’t like it and warn us against it. They wait in line and are told at the government will not cover certain procedures (rationing), especially when they reach a certain age. Often it is in the 50′s. So don’t fool yourself, the socialized health systems are not so great. If you think they are, then move there and see for yourself.

I have an Aunt who needs surgery. She was told by the doctor, once she got a long awaited appointment, that it would be a 4 year wait for the free surgery. In the meantime, she will suffer with pain. So, she is likely going to come to the United States to get treatment. This is the rule and not the exception. If we get a system like Canada, people from other countries won’t have anywhere else to go. Anyone who thinks they will get quality care for their ailments is going to be rudely awakened if you ever need a procedures to eliminate pain. Your quality of life will suffer. I hope you are happy…I know I won’t be.

Anyway, I speak from experience from those who have socialized medicine in their lives. But I know you paid progressives are only now coming out of the woodwork and making it seem you are speaking for the majority, when in fact, you are speaking for the minority. This is what Obama meant when he said he was going to respond. It won’t work.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

hi TC you are going to get attacked so be prepared,the enlightened one has decreed that his follows attack any one that shows decent.i lived in england most of my life.In england EVERY ONE PAYS,every one has a percentage taken out their wages.it is like a child support garnish,the rich don,t pay it all.The system is not run with government interference. The rich have private health care because they what a better quality of service,But they see the same doctors and are treated in the same hospitals but are given preferential treatment,meaning they don,t have to wait for treatment and are given private rooms etc,it is like the VIP queue at disney land.There are decisions as to who gets treatment and one consideration is age.the cost to run this system is a tremendous financial burden on the country, unlike how the democrats are trying to confuse americans, that our system would be self financing.

Posted by brian lee | Report as abusive
 

Religious political bantering has bee going on for centuries within the United States. The Civil War slavery and anti-slavery movements used religious dogmas to advance their cases. Fortunately, our Constitution does n not encourage religious-political debates. It’s amazing how narrow minded people (Democrats and Republicans) use religious dogma to advance their political agendas. The fact of the matter is that our political system has been so corrupted by lobbyist and big business that it is no wonder that frustrated people turn to religion to try to solve the problem. However, corporate entities are more than likely agents of evil which makes for an interesting paradox.

Posted by Jim | Report as abusive
 

Religous left? This is the first time I have ever heard the term, or there was any such thing as a religous left. We always hear of the Religous right in this country, and they always get front page headlines and direct quotes on all sorts of political issues; although the Religous left is mentioned not a single quote is made of the leaders in the article. The new industry is supposed to be balanced and unbiased in its coverage of the news.

Health care is a HUMAN RIGHT.

Posted by Kristianna Thomas | Report as abusive
 

Well I certainly don’t agree with the war OR spending the money to jail marijuana offenders but it still comes out of my tax money. So Pro-Pregnancy-as-punishment-for-having-s ex, butt out and YOU guys deal with something YOU don’t like for once. So what if abortion was funded by the government? What business is it of yours anyways? Are you god? Who are you to judge? Isn’t that a sin??? Worry about your OWN life and keep your nose out of others.

Posted by Kirsten Spitzner | Report as abusive
 

I don’t care either way. I think health care reform is a good idea. The U.S. does have a lot of money it is just in the wrong hands. But on the other side the U.S. is becoming overpopulated so more people without care will equal less people. A plus. Also, with the rise of health care cost, more people will be struggling financially, especially those with families. That in turn would give people like me, single and child free, more leverage economically. So, go ahead and fight it.

Posted by Everett Kindred | Report as abusive
 

the whole health care reform doc is about taking away more…..(yes more again)…
of our liberties, our rights and freedom
…..there are so many “compulsory”…items contained in it…..

who guards what is good for us if it is not ourselves in the end

there is not much that comes out of Washington now days that is not one more restraint on our freedom…..this health care bill is one more tightening of the government on us……

Posted by Feedom | Report as abusive
 

I’m not surprised that the health insurance lobby has spent hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars on ginning up astroturf resistance to health insurance reform. I’m not surprised that the Republican party is making up lie after lie about health insurance reform. I’m not even surprised at how many people have been taken in by all the outrageous stories told by those mentioned above. I am, however, pleasantly surprised that Reuters actually paid a little attention to Jim Wallis and others of the religious left; I’d like to read more about this. How about actually giving some of these folks an interview?

Posted by Dennis | Report as abusive
 

the american interpretation of the canadian system suggests to me a misunderstanding. my wife has had a very unhealthy life – has had to do some waiting but never to the extent that you hear, especially from some of the discussions of Obamas plan. You have a good President. HELP HIM.

Posted by george | Report as abusive
 

It is incredible how the health insurance industry has
distorted the healthcare debate. All of Europe, Canada and
the UK have had public healthcare for decades. But capitalist greed do not really care about people, it is all
about money, profit.
How many thousands of Americans go abroad to get a medical
operation??? so humiliating!

Posted by ed | Report as abusive
 

I strongly believe that no matter how health care system is
reformed in this country, there will always be a big group of bureaucrats who will take advantage of this for financial reasons. The president may have good intentions but even the current health care system cannot sustain itself under all the expenditures. But I really am baffled by all the lobbying ( in millions) from insurance and pharmaceutical companies. It is greed that unfortunately makes our current health care system so complicated.

Posted by M. Quigley | Report as abusive
 

People from Canada, we appreciate your concerns but please stay in your own business. There is a reason why we are the most powerful, respected country in the world and you are..Canada…you get my jist.

Regards

Posted by Richard Brown | Report as abusive
 

First of all, just reminding everyone to act like people. The debate is getting a little bit, um, heated. Arguing doesn’t change anything.

Now, I don’t want to make generalizations, and I respect that republicans are taking a stand against what they see as dangerous, but the arguments against it “There’s going to be forced euthanasia.” “Medicare cuts.” “People will die in masses.” tend to be fear-mongering tactics, not debate points. When thought about rationally, this should work out well for people. But even if this is terrible, the rioting tactics used by the extreme right (the ones that are booing town hall meetings so that no one can hear anything that the people are saying) are ineffective.

Of course, think what you like. Majority will rule.

 

Re: TC, all I can say is that is pure lies…. no one waits 4 years for anything….Socialized healthcare does have some drawbacks, but it is about the greater good….equality for all citizens, whether they can pay or not…preventative care, follow-up…emergency care at ANY hospital by the physician of CHOICE.
American healthcare companies are bashing Canadian healthcare because they won’t make money off of it.
Come on guy, healthcare is a right, not a COMMODITY.

Posted by Bob bobby | Report as abusive
 

Richard Brown, Most powerful? definately. Most Respected? Highly unlikely.
The United states spends the most money on healthcare out of all the G8 nations, however you have the lowest life expectancy and the least access to care….
Go figure

Posted by R T | Report as abusive
 

To Richard Brown- America: Powerful? possibly, but China seems more so – that is debatable. Respected? not a chance. I speak for most Australians when I say I would have more respect for a Canadian any day.

The Australian healthcare system (Medicare)generally trumps both the Canadian and the American system.

Posted by DS | Report as abusive
 

could TC clarify this :
“No government run health care system has ever worked and it not working now. It comes with long delays in treatment leading to severe quality of life issues. Rationing is a fact of life under any socialized government run system and it would be a travesty if it were to take hold here. We still have the best health care system in the world and this government wants to ruin it for the 75 percent who have good health coverage and don’t want to change ”
So 25 percent who have good health coverage do want a change and would be happy to use substandard health coverage,is that your point?

Posted by David Peter Mattocks | Report as abusive
 

Substandard? No, I don’t have superb health care. I have earned it and want to keep it. For those who think the military Tricare and VA hospitals are so great, then join the military and earn your way to health care rather than off the backs of the hard working people of this country who earn their way to good benefits.

The 4 YEAR wait for a procedure in Canada is a fact. The only lies and misinformation are coming from the liberal left. I have been debating this issue on here for months and only now, after Obama gave his marching orders to ACORN and their ilk, is the debate on here becoming heated with lies and distortions from you paid goons. It is truly scary what this government is doing to the United States.

It only goes to show the progressive left is desperate to break down democracy and pass their socialist agenda on the majority of people who do not want anything they have to offer. If this weren’t true, then this current onslaught wouldn’t be happening. I have been on here for awhile and the last time it happened was in the last months of the 2008 election. The left was vicsious and when the election was over, they (you) all went away. But now you are back.

We live in scary times and if this health care fiasco becomes a part of our lives, the we are doomed as a nation and will live in servitude. Hope you are happy. I won’t be.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

Steve K’s point is well taken. My son is a specialist ing private practice for 10 years. He is appalled by insurance control of medical care (“lucrative machine”) & control of legislative process dooming true reform.

People disrupting townhall meetings are STOOGES whipped into a frenzy by the TV/Radio talk shows who are paid handsomely by corporations with a vested interest in the outcome. The organizers are also handsomely paid by organizations funded by the foundations of those same corporations & their executives.

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

 

Attn Richard Brown!!!

I am a dual citizen of the US and CANADA.
DO NOT tell me to mind my own business.
Healthcare IS my business. HEALTH CARE affects me.

As someone who has personally experienced both the existing health care system in the US and in Canada and READ the entire HC Bill – I WILL offer up my opinion, thoughts, insights. And every other Canadian can feel free to do the same FULL STOP.

As for your BS about America being the most respected country in the world… what friggin bizarro world do you live in?

When I travel around the world including the Middle East, Europe,Africa, the UK and I mention I m Canadian, I am treated with tremendous respect. When I mention I m American .. I have been insulted & berated, treated with contempt.

Richard Brown’s arrogance has proven WHY the reaction to Americans is so negative and vitriolic.

Posted by Juliana Leblanc | Report as abusive
 

It is interesting to see Canadians so interested in the US health care debate and our religious/political system. Regardless of progressive liberals who want to rewrite history, American was indeed founded by Puritans escaping the UK to be able to worship as they wanted w/o government dictates….so the simple fact is that separation of church is state is SOLELY designed to keep government from establishing a religion, which certainly leave people of religion fully within their right and obligation to become involved in politics.

As for heath care, we have fully funded health care for all American today and there is no need for reform. Hospitals are require by federal law to treat indigents, and there is Medicare for the elderly. People do NOT have the right to equality of care, if I have insurance because I am a contributing member of society I SHOULD have access to better care and more options. A noncontributing member of society, (i.e. a lazy good for nothing hack) should NOT have the same access to services period, be it the same type car I drive, the house I live in OR the health care I receive. Equality in health care is not more a ‘right’ than equality in automobile ownership.

Posted by Decided1 | Report as abusive
 

I have to take issue with the statements that ‘most Americans’ are opposed to this idea. Overwhelmingly, polls have shown that most people want Health Care Reform. Most people also don’t understand the plan that’s going though congress now, and that is to a certain extent inevitable with a bill this complex and with so many things still undecided.

There is so much misinformation floating around about this. How do people read the idea of a public insurance option open to everyone and infer that there will be bureaucrats in charge of deciding who is a productive enough member of society to survive? How do people read that the new plan will insure people with pre-existing conditions and infer that the new plan will not provide care for the sick or the elderly? They jump to these conclusions the same way they come to pass judgement on health care in Germany, Canada, the UK, and other places they’ve never been to a doctor in. They lie, then others hear these lies, and they spread the lies.

But back to the issue at hand with this article, I think it’s great that there are religious people on the left standing up to the wack-jobs on the right that constantly want to drag the entire Christian faith down with them. I’m not religious myself, but I know plenty of people who are, and they cover as wide of a spectrum of political ideologies as non-believers. For years now the religious right has been skewing that diversity amongst people of faith in terms of public perspective by being so vocal, and the perception has been that the church and the republican party are inherently similar entities. This is not at all the case. I’m glad to hear there are people taking a stand on this issue to bring the public opinion back to the freedom of religion this country was founded on: that we should choose our faith and our opinions on government separately.

Posted by Adam Graham | Report as abusive
 

I have been involved directly or as a volunteer advocate for family and friends dealing with health care issues for the last 15 years. I have experienced many different health care provider – insurance combinations. These have included group insurance (all private), group insurance (public-private partnership), private payer insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, and no insurance. By far the most bureaucratic and the most controlling in terms of dictating and restricting care has been with the completely private group insurance companies. Additionally I can confirm that the error rate in billing and insurance coverage is unusually high with the private sector insurance plans. My most recent experience has had an error rate of 90%.

There was an article recently in the New York Times that resonates with my experiences. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/health  /08patient.html?scp=1&sq=health%20care% 20advocates&st=cse
The article describes a “new” profession one that wades through the current health care morass. Unfortunately most people who could use this type of help can not afford these services. Health care reform is needed not only for those who can not afford insurance but also those who do not have or can not afford a “medical billing advocate”. Our current system is a competitive system, unfortunately the system not only competes between companies but also with the severely sick or injured. Those who are seriously sick/injured or poor are easy to compete against and often lose unless a strong advocate volunteers or is employed. We need Health Care Reform now and not another 15 years in the future.

Posted by T. Schumacher | Report as abusive
 

All of you anti-socialist right wingers, I would hope you realize that the Highway system in America is a government ran socialistic system that has worked well for over 50 years. Or do you drive your pickups only down toll roads. Yes our socialistic highway system isn’t perfect, has some potholes and sometimes get neglected. But it is also constantly being improved and maintained. Anyone with a tank of gas, tags and a license is free to use it. Sometimes traffic is bad but with a little patience you will get where you want to go. Same with national health care. It may not be perfect, but what is on this planet. You right wingers need to quit acting like hysterical uneducated fools and turn off Fox news.

Posted by RL | Report as abusive
 

Thanks to Juliana Leblanc, Steve K, SM (physician), and others who post thoughtful, reasoned, and informative comments. Such comments in news forums are providing insight into millions of citizens that are not attending public meetings only to be shouted down.

Actually, TC seems very unhappy. Too much time with Rush, Glenn, Lou & Bill O. will do that to most people.

Actually, Richard Brown displays more ignorance than arrogance. Too much time in the bubble of talk shows.

 

“am a dual citizen of the US and CANADA. DO NOT tell me to mind my own business. Healthcare IS my business. HEALTH CARE affects me.”

Health care affects everybody. That doesn’t mean that it’s the government’s responsibility to give you everything you want.

“I mention I m Canadian, I am treated with tremendous respect”

It’s easy for a country of 33 million people, enormous natural resources, and a strong democratic neighbor to its south to keep out of other people’s business. But the US doesn’t have that choice; it was dragged into world affairs in the 20th century by the utter failure of Europeans to get their own house in order and has been trapped in that role ever since.

Posted by Tom | Report as abusive
 

I think the Canadian model of health care is wrong and I don’t want it in the US. The US should have a public/private model (similar to Germany). That is: everybody is required to have very basic health care coverage, but everybody also has the choice of buying additional coverage if they like. Basic health care coverage should generally only cover preventive care, generic drugs, and the most basic surgery. Anything else, people should have a choice whether they want it and whether they want to pay for it.

Posted by Tom | Report as abusive
 

“Socialized healthcare does have some drawbacks, but it is about the greater good….equality for all citizens, whether they can pay or not…preventative care, follow-up…emergency care at ANY hospital by the physician of CHOICE.”

What greater good would that be? Why should there be “equality” in medical treatments when we don’t have equality in anything else?

Your health depends much more on how you live, what you eat, how you work, etc., than on any expensive medical interventions. Are you going to demand “equality” for every aspect of life that might affect health?

And why should I be required to pay for your expensive choices in health care if I don’t even want those choices myself?

Posted by Tom | Report as abusive
 

Tom and Decided1. You are right and the majority believe this. The paid universal health care pumpers on here are just now taking their marching orders to appear they are in the majority. It is the same tactic used just prior to the 2008 election. They were viscious name callers then, they are viscious name callers now. If they get their way, they will disappear like they did the day after the election.

America was not founded for everyone to be equal. Health care is not a right, it is a privilege for hard working people who earn their way in life. If the military tricare and VA are as good as they say, then they can join the military and earn their health care rather than off the backs of hardworking Americans who earn their way. I buy my own insurance and I resent the fact that the socialist leaning government wants to take it away to help pay for people who choose not to purchase their own health care or won’t even work for it. They would rather have their beer, cigarettes, HD TV sets, cell phones, etc rather than be responsible to their families. They make their choices and have to live with the consequences. I made my choice to work hard to earn the good health care I have now.

But that doesn’t matter, because we are supposed to pay for everyone who doesn’t work hard. Wow…such a deal.

I am not unhappy with what I have now and I speak for myself, so all the progressive liberals who want to blame my opinions on others do so with ignorance. At least I am not being paid to pump their health care fiasco.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

While the cable channels are giving nonstop coverage to the mobs disrupting the town halls on healthcare reform – Obama’s approval scores have been tracking upward for the last week, back to a rspectable 58% – 36% in Gallup. (Which usually leans a bit conservative)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup -Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

The chart illustrates the turnaround – having the crazies front and center is hurting the GOP.
This, of course, will conflict with the ‘revolution is brewing’/'teabagger grassroots uprising’ narrative TC and Brian Lee are feeding us. The American people are not as gullible as they had hoped.

Posted by getplaning | Report as abusive
 

the same people that attended the palin rally’s are the ones disrupting the town hall meetings. as usual no new ideas just criticism. it would be refreshing to have an informed electorate that actually reads instead of gathering information from radio and television. if anybody is interested please look up the words “fascism,socialism,communism, and capitalism”, a clear understanding of these words would be invaluable in the debate.

Posted by melchor jasso | Report as abusive
 

Fascism is government control and is always liberal in its scope.

Rasmussen shows the exact opposite to getplaning. The clear majority do not want governemt health care, Obama with a 48 percent approval rating and want lower taxes and less government.

All I can say is this, the liberal progressives and their paid pumpers who are suddenly flooding this blog with their diatribes have not offered anything constructive, only to come on here and bash the people who are not in support of this universal health care fiasco. Rather than debate the issues, they personally attack and cut down any threat to their survival. Not one health care pumper has offered any constructive dialog to this debate other than to try and cut down anything in their path. It is obvious that is what is going on. If you want a debate, then debate. But you have nothing to offer. Nothing.

The polls do not support them and won’t support them now.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

The U.S. health care system is broke. Do you really want the insurance companys now to fix it. They were the ones who benefit from it being broken. It is time to fix the Health care system but not by insurance companies. Why are they so afraid of a public option could it be they don’t want the American people to choose. They say they can’t compete maybe it is because they don’t want to since they are too busy ripping off the American people for hundreds and hundreds of billion of dollars. Don’t be fooled………

Posted by Johnny K | Report as abusive
 

Hey RL…It is so cute that the only defense progressive liberals have is to make it look like a thinking person, that sees through the BS socialist/marxist snake oil agenda Obama is pushing, is a fox news hack. I actually have a graduate degree, a job and think for myself…rarely watch fox news or any other TV since I’m usually busy reading.

Try having an intelligent conversation on the issues and the facts some time…I haven’t met one yet who can, or who will, w/o resorting to name calling and Bush bashing. Hey, I can’t stand Bush either and BTW, he isn’t president anymore. 52% of the people bought the snake oil and about half of those now want to return it. (oh that wasn’t ‘change you can believe in’ it was really ‘CHAINS you better get used to’)

I actually earn my money, as most working people do, it doesn’t belong to the government, anyone in Washington, the socialist state of California, GM, BoA, or anyone else Obama wants to bail out. If they can’t run a profitable enterprise, go bankrupt and go away. No one is to big to fail.

Government run health care the biggest scam of all! Visit a VA hospital to get your free dose of the future of health care, Obama style. It makes a nursing home look like a Hilton.

Posted by Decided1 | Report as abusive
 

It’s funny how people forget that this is what everyone was whining about. That obama needs to do this and that. And as soon as he tries, we tell him he’s a socialist or all the other attacks on him. Give the guy a chance to do some good. Don’t forget that it was Bush and the republicans that started the stimulus packages. But let’s just try to stall as much as we can so we can have something to whine about. And this whole town hall meeting outrage is a circus and the average person should understand it’s special interest groups leading the whole thing. The right wing is going nuts as in crazy so lets not allow them to ruin an oppertunity to do some good and let this president lead us. He can’t possibly do worse than Bush.

Posted by A voice | Report as abusive
 

Rasmussen Reports presents its new poll on health care in a way designed to maximize pick-up by the conservative media, something that Rasmussen does on a regular basis. TC always emphasizes the number that supposedly suggests reluctance to health care reform, rather than the one buried in their survey finding overwhelming support for the central argument in favor of overhauling the system right now.

TC grabs on to Rasmussen’s poll and slaps this interpretation on it- “The clear majority do not want governemt health care, Obama with a 48 percent approval rating and want lower taxes and less government.”

But again: The Rasmussen poll also found that an astonishing 78% think that controlling health care spending is very or somewhat important to improving the economy. In other words, while it’s true that Rasmussen’s top-line result does indicate some public hesitance, the poll also shows that a huge majority endorses Obama’s argument.

But you have to dig down beneath Rasmussen’s headline to find that out, something TC isn’t willing to do, and doesn’t want you to do either.

Posted by getplaning | Report as abusive
 

No one is saying the health care system doesn’t need to be adjusted. The Rasmussen 78 percent you refer to is just that most people recognize that fact. However, the clear majority do not want the Obama and congressional plan. That is a fact also.

In addition, over 60 percent of the people think deficit/debt reduction is more important than health care reform. The clear majority also want less government(which further proves the government health care fiasco is not what people want) and lower taxes.

These are the facts and any diatribes in opposition are against the majority of Americans and what America wants.

The whole thing stinks, the paid health care pumpers are out in force (in just the last two days). No other blog story below is even getting any interest at all by the paid pumpers. This is so obviously a shrill cry by the losing side in this argument. America and Americans are speaking out in force against this sham of a health care plan.

It doesn’t matter what you say, you will lose this battle.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

Approval of the Democratic party’s healthcare and economic proposals still exceed the approval of the Republican party’s “delay and kill” strategy by a 30 point margin, even on Rasmussen’s poll. And there isn’t even a question in Rasmussen’s poll concerning whether people want “less government” or “lower taxes”, so obviously TC is just making stuff up at this point.
And speaking of making stuff up, who is paying the “pumpers?” Americans for Prosperity? Freedomworks? America’s Health Care Plans? Patients United? Conservatives for Patients’ Rights? That’s who is doing the paying. $1.5 million per day, to protect their monopoly.

Posted by getplaning | Report as abusive
 

getplaning unlike what you are saying i am not trying to give people hypochondria,this will occur if the government plan is forced on people. i have experienced a national health system,so i am not talking hot air like you. For obama to try and say it will be self financing is typical,and considering all the other fantasy from pelosi and friends it sounds right on. His advisers are trying to force this through because they know it is now or never as his popularity tanks.Everybody admits that there have to be changes but socialist ideology should not be allowed to drive this through.

Posted by brian lee | Report as abusive
 

Health Care often comes up in my conversations with my Canadian and European friends. The ads on TV about their health care systems being non-responsive, etc. do not correspond with my friends experiences. They all have had very good experiences and these include friends who have had serious illnesses. I trust my friends experiences more than TV commercials or talk show hosts (trusting a talk show host to be transparent and honest is akin to believing a sideshow barker at a carnival).

Posted by T. Schumacher | Report as abusive
 

Provisions put into the stimulus bill are paying for these paid pumpers. Interesting to note, not one of the new pumpers who “suddenly” arrived on here to bash everything and everyone who is against this government health care fiasco has denied this fact.

As for Rasmussen and the numbers:

“Fifty-four percent (54%) of voters now say tax cuts for the middle class are more important than new spending for health care reform, even as the president’s top economic advisers signal that tax hikes may be necessary to support the plan.”

“For many Americans, particularly the vast majority who already have health insurance, the urgency is not as great. In fact, 48% of voters now rate the U.S. health care system as good or excellent, a significant increase in support over the past few months. Eighty percent (80%) of those with insurance rate their own coverage as good or excellent.”

“Speaker Nancy Pelosi declared several days ago that health insurance companies are “villains,” but just 25% of voters agree with her.”

“Just 28% say they are willing to pay higher taxes so that all Americans can have health insurance. Sixty percent (60%) are opposed. Those figures are little changed since May.”

These are the indisputable facts regarding the health care lies we are being told from the president, congress ACORN, the unions, etc.

The majority of Americans do not agree with them. Fact.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

As a Canadian with socialized health care I feel I must ensure your readers are aware that abortion (AKA induced miscarriage) is indeed performed under the guise of socialized medicine. This procedure has been employed in Canada for a number of years. If you do implement socialized medicine in the US, I would reccommend that this issue be specifically addressed or you will find, as we in Canada have, that you will be indirectly contributing to this terrible sin.

Posted by Kristian Pedersen | Report as abusive
 

Why is it if a conservative group oposes something it is protrayed as we are all zelots! Yet if a liberal view is reported on it is because we care. Also shouldn’t journlist report both side. Secondly, what about democracy and the right to free speech. Just because the left likes something and the centrist and right does not does not mean it is bad or we are mean spirited.

I am sick of being portrayed and a right wing wacko by any and all media. You need to report the news and nothing more. What about fair and balanced? This article portrays us as zelots and everyone else as kind, caring people. Nothing can be further from the truth.

If you want a voice then show up at the town hall meeting and don’t send your UNION thugs to do you work. Plus the union has nothting to gain they get their benefits and pension regardless of this program.

Posted by Jim | Report as abusive
 

Would anyone purchase a health insurance policy WITHOUT knowing exactly what is covered and what is not covered? I find it very difficult to believe Americans should support any public health option WITHOUT even knowing what is covered and what is not. It is so difficult for some to understand that if we couldn’t trust our government to run Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac without tipping off a worldwide recession, if we can’t trust our government to spend stimulus money for “shovel ready projects” to stimulate the economy and provide much needed jobs for our economy quickly, that maybe we can not support a health care bill that basically says, “just trust us on the details, we will fill in the blanks later.” The health care bill is a bill without a plan. If a regular insurance company can spell out what is and what is not covered in a policy in four pages, then why can’t four of the 1000 pages in the health care bill spell out coverage of the public option? And the president and congress wonders why they have a PR nightmare on their hands.

Posted by Sherry | Report as abusive
 

Sherry. The majority of Americans know what you know, this health care fiasco is a sham and we will all be losers if this thing passes. Keep up the good fight even though the paid health care pumpers are out in force.

None of the paid pumpers have anything constructive to say. They are out to destroy without offering any reason why health care is good. They are full disinformation and flood us with their diatribes. Don’t let that stop you from saying what is right and what the majority of Americans know.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

Divide and conquer, spread misinformation and fear, these are the tactics used over and over by those who would control us. Look at Palin’s “twit” last weekend about “the President’s Death Panel” deciding the fate of her handicapped baby and elderly parents. These are the same guys who are terrified that Obama is scheming to take away their guns, offer abortions at every 7-11 convenience store, and insist that all US citizens be forced to smoke marijuana daily. Look at some of these posts, with their thinly veiled racism, talking about how they shouldn’t have to pay for the lazy, shiftless losers who don’t work hard enough. Look into your hearts, people, and ask yourself the truly salient question: Should health care be profit driven? Is this ethically corect? Is it really ok to profit from the pain and misery of a fellow human being?
And some speak of not wanting to be required to pay for the health care of others. What about those of us who don’t want to pay taxes to support illegal wars? Or foreign aid to governments which oppress their own or neighboring peoples? Speak your mind, but please do so in a civil manner, and stick to the subject and to the facts.
A huge majority of US citizens understands the need for dramatic change in how health care is delivered in the United States. I support Mr. Obama’s quest for immediate reform. Perhaps some on the right-wing would care to examine republican house member Issa’s claimed proposal to offer the federal workers health care plan to all US citizens, with the government paying 70 percent of the cost of the chosen program, the same as every federal employee (11 million of them) already enjoy.
This article was written about people of faith who agree that it is time to progress from this mire of greed and nacrissism. I do believe it was a fellow named Jesus who said that it would be easier for a camel to slip through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven……..how conveniently some forget what Jesus was really all about, caring for the sick and lame, and certainly not for a profit. Shame on those of you who are so self-absorbed with greed and powerlust that you would sell your immortal soul for a few grubby pieces of silver.

Posted by james cottrill | Report as abusive
 

@People from Canada, we appreciate your concerns but please stay in your own business. There is a reason why we are the most powerful, respected country in the world and you are..Canada…you get my jist.
Regards
- Posted by Richard Brown

-respected country…really… who told you that…seems like you are out of touch with everything. Did you ever wonder why Americans are so ignorant? Perpas you do not feel so. Ignrant so that they don’t get to know about the outside world and leaders do whatever. It is not just ignorance it is a dose of arrogance that helps promote this disease. There is a whole careful program (media included) to keep Americans insulated and 9/11 and recession put some cracks in this insulation. Ignorance is worsened by American arrogance. Wake up guys, whatever your views on healthcare system. My views: Universal healthcare.
Did you notice on this blog, a vast majority favor the Universal healthcare and govt run insurance.

Posted by Michael Moore | Report as abusive
 

Yes Micheal Moore I do notice the paid pumpers who suddenly arrived on these blogs to flood out and destroy anything and anyone who opposes this government health care fiasco. Until the order was given to do this, it was generally a quiet time where ordinary people posted their opinions. Now there is a concerted effort to destroy those who oppose health care from being enacted. However, those who oppose it are the majority and you are the minority. Nice try, but if you were the majority it would be like this.

Religious left. That’s a good one, Christians are not left or right. Also it is interesting how the left wants to exploit the the religious for this purpose. Then when the government is done using the religious, it will attempt to destroy them….

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

Many health insurance plans are determined by employers and not the employees. The employees do not have the opportunity to shop around for plans. It is my experience that you get what the employer can negotiate with the health insurance company. My experience with purchasing a health care plan for a previously uninsured family member is that the description of what is and is not covered is obscured in legal language and small print. Since those of us who are healthy do not have much experience with the health care system it is hard to shop intelligently. In my opinion a health insurance system that is more transparent than our current system is needed.

Posted by T. Schumacher | Report as abusive
 

I might be in favor of reform if it has these 3 key goals:
1) Tort Reform – insurance costs against crazy lawsuits really effect prices
2) States rights – each state should determine its own program
3) Non-profit and/or Charities who donate doctor services instead of Emergency room treatment for non life-threatening problems

Posted by stephen | Report as abusive
 

@Yes Micheal Moore I do notice the paid pumpers who suddenly arrived on these blogs to flood out and destroy anything and anyone who opposes this government health care fiasco.
-says TC

Oh, no problem go ahead and oppose the govt health care program, but using supportive argument, avoiding smearing. All I see that people who are against the proposed healthcare program are doing:
1) to malign by labeling (basless) as paid pumpers anyone who supports the proposed health care program. This is what is “3rd world” behaviour using some commenter’s parlance.
2) gag them: Like I see here that whosoever appreciates European and Canadian system is asked to shut up. Oh yes do not learn from others. Rumors are floated around at great cost to the nation each day by the lobby.
3) those who oppose feel they will pay more for the other’s needs. These are the ones who won’t miss Sunday Mass and perhaps use Christ several times a day and words like “altruism”. But they do not practice, obviously.

In reality for this issue, religion has no place for argument and those who oppose are (mostly) cosnervatives. Point is Universal healthcare is basic human need and birth right. I earn enough to fall in high tax bracket; gives a damn to religion; in a way contributing to the need of others. What the hell is problem with so-called church goers who should be more altrusitic than me the atheist. I guess all it will take for one to understand is a tumor in the butt or brain when one is buying insurance from thiefs who will then ask tumor is on which cheek–right or left and wherever they will deny and ask to shed some $$$ to stay alive. That will be the day of enlightenment and becoming pro-canada and pro-Obama and anyone who bails them out of the crisis then.

My cab driver (I assume poor) whom I was talking to was complaining of Obama’s socialism untill I told him buddy my money is going in your pocket not the otherway around and I support Obama, so what’s your real problem. Same anti-canada, anti-Europe rhetoric untill I chatted with him and then he said do no depress me. The guy cannot think for himself, so it is hard to expect him to feel for others. This is an example of paranoia, ignorance and no feel for the fellow citizens. Wake up people, time to evolve.

Posted by Micheal Moore | Report as abusive
 

@Yes Micheal Moore I do notice the paid pumpers who suddenly arrived on these blogs to flood out and destroy anything and anyone who opposes this government health care fiasco.
-says TC

Oh, no problem go ahead and oppose the govt health care program, but using supportive argument, avoiding smearing. All I see that people who are against the proposed healthcare program are doing:
1) to malign by labeling (basless) as paid pumpers anyone who supports the proposed health care program. This is what is “3rd world” behaviour using some commenter’s parlance.
2) gag them: Like I see here that whosoever appreciates European and Canadian system is asked to shut up. Oh yes do not learn from others. Rumors are floated around at great cost to the nation each day by the lobby.
3) those who oppose feel they will pay more for the other’s needs. These are the ones who won’t miss Sunday Mass and perhaps use Christ several times a day and words like “altruism”. But they do not practice, obviously.

In reality for this issue, religion has no place for argument and those who oppose are (mostly) cosnervatives. Point is Universal healthcare is basic human need and birth right. I earn enough to fall in high tax bracket; gives a damn to religion; in a way contributing to the need of others. What the hell is problem with so-called church goers who should be more altrusitic than me the atheist. I guess all it will take for one to understand is a tumor in the butt or brain when one is buying insurance from thiefs who will then ask tumor is on which cheek–right or left and wherever they will deny and ask to shed some $$$ to stay alive. That will be the day of enlightenment and becoming pro-canada and pro-Obama and anyone who bails them out of the crisis then.

My cab driver (I assume poor) whom I was talking to was complaining of Obama’s socialism untill I told him buddy my money is going in your pocket not the otherway around and I support Obama, so what’s your real problem. Same anti-canada, anti-Europe rhetoric untill I chatted with him and then he said do no depress me. The guy cannot think for himself, so it is hard to expect him to feel for others.This is an example of paranoia, ignorance and no feel for the fellow citizens. Wake up people, time to evolve.

Posted by Michael Moore | Report as abusive
 

Micheal Moore. Nice try stereotyping any opponent of the universal health care fiasco into a nice dreary picture, however inaccurate you are.

As for universal health care being a “basic human need and birth right”, that is blatantly false. Health care (I didn’t say universal..) is a responsibility but not a “right”. That is not open to argument so save it, you are wrong.

Besides, that is the crux of the matter, if health care was a priority to people in this country they would earn it through hard work and make it the priority for themselves and their families. Unfortunately, there are people who think they should get health insurane without hard work. There are also people who would rather live a lifestyle beyond their means before they would purchase health insurance. If it is a basic human need, then they should purchase health insurance first and then satisfy their other needs as their finances dictate. Howeve, as you know, that isn’t the case. They want everything for free. Well nothing is for free and I resent anyone expecting me to pay for them to have equal health care. Unbelievable what this country is turning in to.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

” As for universal health care being a “basic human need and birth right”, that is blatantly false. Health care (I didn’t say universal..) is a responsibility but not a “right”. That is not open to argument so save it, you are wrong.

- Posted by TC

The above quotation by anti-human rights activist TC is clearly incorrect in it’s assumption that health care is not a basic human right, as clearly defined in Article 25 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed December 10, 1948 by the United States of America.

From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations, on December 10, 1948

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

The signing of this document was obligatory for every nation which desired to participate and be represented in the world body.

So you see, Health Care is a basic human right, clearly. Our country signed a Declaration insisting it is so.

Again, I remind you, TC, that the article we are commenting on discussed people of faith on the left supporting universal health care, which, I once again point out would most certainly be the policy that Jesus would support. I cannot recall reading where Jesus ( or Mohammed, or the Buddha, for that matter) would support a for-profit health care system designed to make people rich from the pain and suffering of others. Try reading from the Sermon on the Mount, instead of listening to the greedy haters. Find love for your fellow man in your heart, it’s there if you look. Peace.

Posted by james cottrill | Report as abusive
 

Oh, the old United Nations “ace in the hole”. Well, it really doesn’t matter. The United States Constitution is the only authority of our great nation. And what I say stands, regardless of what you say. Authoritative or not.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

“Oh, the old United Nations “ace in the hole”. Well, it really doesn’t matter. The United States Constitution is the only authority of our great nation. And what I say stands, regardless of what you say. Authoritative or not.”

- Posted by TC

You are brilliant, sir. No matter what facts are pointed out to you, you simply close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and say ” neener neener neener”. You know the facts and simply choose to ignore them. You choose to ignore legal documents signed by your government, simply because they don’t fit in with your own point of reference. It is people like you who supported our own genocide of the native american peoples, because to you a treaty isn’t worth the paper it is signed on. After all, there was nothing written in the constitution condemning stealing land and murdering innocent natives, was there? If I remember right, that noble, infallable document also measured the worth of a black man as 3/5 the value of a white man, and since it has never been ammended at all (that is called irony, TC), clearly it is more valid than even the very words of Jesus himself!

Again, I point out that the article you are commenting upon concerns people of faith who support reforming the corrupt, greed driven health care system in our country.

Jesus admonishes his followers to love your enemies, care for the sick and the lame, and to turn the other cheek, and not to lust after riches in this world. Should you ever bother to take the time to read his words, perhaps you will change your tune. But know that there are many of us out here, people of deep and abiding faith, who truly know that we must do what is right, and trust me, despite all of your lies and half-truths and complete disregard for all others than yourself, we will “git-r-done”………change you can believe in is on the way, TC. Hallelulah!

Posted by james cottrill | Report as abusive
 

@Oh, the old United Nations “ace in the hole”. Well, it really doesn’t matter. The United States Constitution is the only authority of our great nation. And what I say stands, regardless of what you say. Authoritative or not.”
- Posted by TC

TC: No wonder we are called United States of Arrogance. I think we had fun ride for 40 odd years since signing that UN Article in 1948, as pointed by James cottrill.

@Unfortunately, there are people who think they should get health insurane without hard work. There are also people who would rather live a lifestyle beyond their means before they would purchase health insurance. If it is a basic human need, then they should purchase health insurance first and then satisfy their other needs as their finances dictate.”
TC: Yes I agree that there are SOME people at fault. But why?- Not everyone is rich and it is expensive to buy the insurance and even if bought, it pays for treating the tumor on the butt you don;t have the cancer on. I hope we do not have to go into the science of how it works. Now lack of Universal heathcare may still work, but only if the treatment/insurance is cheap and pays for each single disease. Not each country in the world has insurance, but medicine is much cheaper in those places. Here in US that unfortunately is not the case.

@Well nothing is for free and I resent anyone expecting me to pay for them to have equal health care. Unbelievable what this country is turning in to.”
-This country is going to dogs if you think harder, but not because of Universal health care. The unneeded imbalance is in practice each day, but you are so so fine with it—Credit card companies give all this inviting balance transfer offer to me and compensate by charging 22% finance charge to you.

Rumor mill is killing the common sense and arrogance is
hastening the process.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

It is 60yrs, not 40yrs since 1948.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Actually, the problem is with the president himself saying what the health care bill will and will not do? Well, just what is the actual plan he is talking about? There isn’t a bill that he can speak to, there are so many versions being bantered about in congress that he cannot “honestly” speak to what a universal national health care plan will actually look like. In the meantime, he is just speaking non-sense and saying what will make him look good.

When it comes to prevention and the tests that go with it to help find potential heart attacks, cancer, etc. Well, preventive services will cost the nation more and will “not” reduce medical costs. If there are 100 people tested and only 1 person gets cancer, then where is the savings? It will be prohibitively more expensive than under our current health care system. BTW, the CBO agrees with this assessment and that is a real thorn in any health care proposal working through congress.

Anyone who thinks health care won’t be more expensive than now and won’t lead to “rationing” of care, is living in a fantasy world. Huge government programs do not work. Medicare and Medicaid are broke. What makes anyone think universal government run health care won’t face the same hurdles?

In the end, the American people will wish they never went down the universal road, especially when they get the letter from the government informing them they no longer qualify for cancer treatment, or a heart transplant or a hip replacement because it is too expensive. “You’ve lived a good life….Thanks for coming out!!”

It will be grand.

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

Actually James, I am a United States citizen who believes in the Constitution of the United States. I am not a citizen of the United Nations.

Makes me wonder why congress doesn’t just say, “hey we have this United Nations signed charter, health care for all…no debate…no need to pass a bill…it is automatically law”. Well, you know that isn’t the case, so it really doesn’t matter what point you are making. The fact is, it is not a “right” to Americans and the United States of America. And a majority of Americans are in agreement with me.

My point still stands, health care is not a “right” it is a “responsibility”.

BTW, no one is dying in the streets because of a lack of health care. Under federal law, no one can be denied health care if they go to an emergency room. So, I will give you one thing, health care is already there for people who need it, regardless of whether they have health insurance or not. So, we actually are a compassionate nation afterall.

Also, the CBO continually reports a universal national health care system will increase the cost of health care not reduce the cost.

What this ends up meaning is that rationing of care will occur, your taxes will go up and when you reach a milestone in age, you will no longer be covered for a whole host of procedures. My Canadian relatives love getting those letters….Wonderful, isn’t it?

Posted by TC | Report as abusive
 

To TC: Something I think a lot of people misunderstand about those whose access to healthcare is through emergency rooms: cancer mortality is higher when cancer is diagnosed in late stages. Most early stage cancer doesn’t present symptoms that would spur a visit to the emergency room. People do die for lack of access to health care when their illnesses and diseases are not diagnosed until treatment is likely to be uneffective or recovery odds are low. Similar examples can be found acroos the gamut of human illness and disease. Without adequate preventive care and routine screenings, more people are sicker longer and die earlier than otherwise: they are also less able to be productive taxpayers. It is is the interest of all of us to help each other live more productive lives. You may surprise yourself one day and find that it is you who have lost your access to healthcare. Will you then be less deserving?

Posted by Claudia | Report as abusive
 

To Decided1
You’ve got it backwards. Separation of church and state is SOLELY designed to keep religion from establishing a government. So that people of any or no religious affiliation can enjoy the freedoms of democracy equally without being forced to live according to others’ religious dictates.

Posted by Claudia | Report as abusive
 

There seems to be not only quite a lot of racial undertones from those that immediately went out and purchased guns after President Obama was elected,but every attempt he makes to better something, those voices roar in their once quited(because they were implementing behind the scene plans of greed) racism. On the subject of health care, no one made noise while Bush was in office and made no attempts to change anything that may appeal to or benefit the masses, especially those millions of Americans without health care. I think racism has just gotten to the point that it can no longer hide its ugly head because ignorance will not allow.

Posted by Earna | Report as abusive
 

Claudia : I’m afraid I don’t have it backward at all.

Perhaps a refresher on the constitution is in order…the very first amendment states:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..”

It seems to me to be very clear that the founders were concerned, just as a Puritans were as they set sail for the new world, that government should not interfere in religion.

Also, in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist’s he was reassuring them that government’s intrusion into religion was walled off by the constitution.

Progressive Liberals have tried twist Jefferson’s words for years by spinning them out of context.

I urge you to read his letter on-line for yourself.

Posted by Decided1 | Report as abusive
 

Anyone who is lying about health care reform is clearly not practicing what Christ taught.

Anyone who is practicing deception to scare people are not practicing Christ’s teachings.

And yet many of those same people are the first to proclaim not only their “Faith” but that the United States is a Christian Nation.

Those folks have a very interesting view of Christianity.

Posted by Rob | Report as abusive
 

No one is to blame but Mr&Mrs America Fool. First there’s the doctor who finds that he gets paid less for every hour of patient contact than a plumber and then figures that at least he’ll get paid in egomania remuneration. So he tries to enjoy having gone from the high school geek to the God in White Coat as his reward for a life of hard work having no life. He likes to dispense good health care, doesn’t give a damn about the payment– his wife runs that part of the office if single practitioner or an office manager does if in a group. All he worries about is doing the right things and saying the right things to make you feel better as if he were the Burning Bush doing miracles. But in fact he knows little and is only groping in the dark. The HMO capitations dump so many patients on him that he barely has time to think– never mind time to learn the new genomics revolution at the cutting edge of medicine. It’s all foreign language to him for the medicine he learned less than a decade ago is based on physiology, not molecular biology; his chemistry and physics he forgot and counts on the miniskirted drug rep with a college degree in jazz ballet to tell him what drugs to use and why. What with legal and “best practice” blah, blah, blah thrown at him by journals that are 80% drug ads, he works most of the time off of a Chinese menu: ColA: signs&symptoms; ColB: diagnoses, ColC: treatment– all in algorithms that protect him from the lawyers….so he thinks. He is forced the give the patient 5 min. If the patient can’t articulate the problem in the first minute, it doesn’t matter, we’ll catch on the next 5 min. visit…..and so it goes until the cancer is caught too late to really be killed. Secondly there’s the patient who deems his disease as a big bag; once it fills with symptoms and is too cumbersome to carry around he goes to doctor, drops it on MD’s lap and says: “my insurance pays you to take care of this…I don’t want it anymore…I just want to get back to my regular life.” Thirdly there are for-profit corporate insurers. They know they didn’t sell insurance, just a rigged roulette table. The chances that your house goes on fire are minute, but you get fire insurance anyway, just in case. But you getting sick is inevitable– especially as you reach 45 to 65… you are at highest risk then of serious, chronic, irreversible and thus expensive diseases like cancer. That’s why a lot of people lose their jobs at around 45 and have to wait 20 years until Medicare kicks in to pick up their diseases, unable to find an “insurer” who covers “pre-existing conditions (whatever that means since many can be said to have been “pre-existing in your genes at birth). By then serious chronic illness is so sure that insurance wants to leave it to Gov because they don’t sell insurance, they play actuarial statistics for big profits and dump you as soon as these are at risk. The same Wall Street that killed your economy managing it for profits is now managing your health for profit. But since you join the work-force at 20, it takes your bosses money for health “insurance” premiums to play the spread instead of the odds. By the time you reach a streak of bad health luck (~ 45), they find excuse to dump you or raise your premiums to unbearable. But stupid Americans don’t care. 80% haven’t reached that inevitable point so they think they are fine. After all, American education consists of learning how NOT to think ahead and enjoy your freedom to watch TV while someone else is in charge of your life. Our schools teach you to sell your freedom so you don’t have to suffer the responsibilities that go with them. HMOs know that you don’t care what your “insurance” is like so long as you have it because, hey, at 20 who gets sick? From medical education to funeral, America is a rip off– overpriced for the little it gives. Someone always makes much more than a good living from your devastation….HEY! THAT’S THE AMERICAN WAY OF DOING THINGS. HMOs are like jungle predators. They hit the very young, the debilitated and the old whenever they can and devour them in their utter ignorance. They are cannibals eating their own species for profit. They are Bush-it “entrepreneurs”– French for THE TAKER IN BETWEEN– who does nothing but set up a toll at which he charges for things to go through. That’s whose keeping Gucci going; they can afford it at your expense. They like the taste of blood– your blood– because their gut can convert it into wealth for manure-eating entrepreneurs. For OUTRAGEOUS profit corporations stack up like saprophytes between you and your doctor making out like bandits (why does a tongue depressor cost 10x the price of a Popsicle stick like the $50 hammer and $100 toilet seat for the Defense Dept.?). BUT HERE’S THE REAL ISSUE. YOU ARE AN IDIOT BECAUSE YOU DON ‘T WANT TO TAKE TIME AND INVESTIGATE THE CURRENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM YOU DEPEND ON TO STAY ALIVE. Like drinking, smoking and sweets&fats eating you do, you are an irresponsible hedonist who doesn’t want to be bothered and doesn’t understand that FREEDOM IS A RESPONSIBILITY. So you go on and on, pissing in your doctor’s face because you waste his time babbling rather than coming in ready to answer his probing questions and then you never see yourself as HIS/HER PARTNER IN YOUR CARE — shared responsibility– once you dropped off your bag of illness and paid your co-pay.

IT IS YOUR FAULT…NOT THE HMOs, BECAUSE THEY DON ‘T HIDE THEIR PREDATORY NATURE IF YOU WOULD ONLY BOTHER TO LOOK BEHIND THE STUPID TV ADS……NOT THE DOCTOR, HE TRIES TO HOLD OUT AGAINST HIS INEVITABLE DEFEAT AT THE HANDS OF DEATH, PROLONGING YOUR LIFE AS LONG AS HE CAN….NOT ALL THE “ENTREPRENEURS THAT GET BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR DOCTOR AND COLLECT PROFITS LIKE MAD BECAUSE THEY ONLY GET TO YOU THROUGH THEIR DRUG ADS…..IT IS YOU DEMANDING THAT YOUR DOCTOR PRESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW IN TV COMMERCIALS.

Yes, in the end it is always smug you– Mr&Mrs Ignorance is Bliss. You are like the dog at the vet…you don’t know whether he’s trying to repair you or hurt you, so you bite him as soon as it hurts. Dr. Obama is trying to fix YOUR healthcare system before your employer dumps you and so, like the dog, you bite him. You like your “coverage,” so why bother? Employer paid healthcare was a gimmick started in the 1950s to attract employees. Now nobody needs employees so why pay the ever rising premiums? But you are too short-sighted to wonder what will my plan be like for you when you’re 40, or 50, or anytime you reeeeaaaalllllyyyy get sick? You take no responsibility…. you want to learn nothing…. after all, you’re a happy follower, not an exposed leader and master of your own fate. You are caught by HMO lobbyists like squirrels trapped with peanuts. So you go to Town halls to show how big Viagra made you, not to show that you think and learn….You pretend you read the whooole plan when all you have is the page number of the sentence or two the lobbyist gave you to site in your attack. Just as you didn’t study in school you don’t study now. You think you are Constitutionally entitled to express your opinion…. but you never heard of a responsibility to study the issue on which your opinion is based.

That “dumb n–ger Obama who is anti-American and foreign born,” as so many of you call him– a total series of lies to cover-up your view of him as a “n–ger” trying to impose “socialism” on your healthcare….even though all he tried was to give you a choice so you can choose which better serves you– for-profit predation or Federal social-conscience. But what you don’t know– BECAUSE YOIU DON ‘T WANT TO KNOW– is that US medicine AS PRACTICED TODAY is for average people– as opposed to millionaires– below that of most Western CAPITALIST countries that provide single-payer healthcare because it is technologically backward contingent of big profits for HMOs and PHARMA so everything is overpriced except for your primary physician (who is UNDERPAID), and everyone but your boss who pays is making out like bandits by making your care SUB -OPTIMUM so it doesn’t cut into the massive profits. It will take a lot of money up-front to fix this current for-profit mess so you can get better and scientifically up to date medical care. The HMOs don’t want to lay out the money, they just want to get rich on the POOR CARE you now get. You are only a dumb squirrel trying to cross a busy highway if you don’t bother to look and investigate. Are you thinking: Hell, I’m covered…I can smoke…I can drink….I can eat crap…I’m covered and they have to take care of me because I’M COVERED”?

WELL YOU’RE NOT COVERED BECAUSE YOUR HEALTH IS DANGEROUS TO AMERICA ‘S CORPORATE PROFIT HEALTH– and hey baby, better you than them! So you take their handout, read your lines at the town hall and bully the speaker figuratively spitting at that “N–er Obama” trying to socialize your healthcare. The for profit corps and HMOs and PHARMA can count on you because you are a total lazy ass who never really wanted to educate himself on how to use the advances of medical research for a better life for you and your family: “ain’t my job…I pay the doc to take care of that and I’m not interested in all that readin’ and thinkin’!” But if you don’t, you are a fool who has a damned good chance to die for profits. It will be YOUR fault because you are the one so smug who just verbally spit into the face of your Congressman!

Posted by DE Teodoru | Report as abusive
 

Just wanted to let everyone know that Bill Moyers will be covering a cool documentary on his PBS show tonight called, “Money Driven Medicine”. It should be really interesting!

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index- flash.html

Posted by JoelS | Report as abusive
 

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