World Council of Churches says Pakistani Christians “live in fear”

September 3, 2009

pakistani-christians-1Christians and other religious minorities in Pakistan live in fear of persecution and even execution or murder on false charges of blasphemy against Islam, the World Council of Churches (WCC) has said. The Council, the Geneva- based global body linking Protestant and Orthodox churches in 110 countries, has called on the Pakistani government to change a law promulgated by military ruler General Zia-ul-Haq that allows for the death penalty for blaspheming Islam.

(Photo: Christians in destroyed home in Gojra, 2 Aug 2009/Mohsin Raza)

Since the law was adopted in 1986 religious minorities in the country have been “living in a state of fear and terror … and many innocent people have lost their lives,” the WCC said in a statement.

Pakistan is an overwhelmingly Muslim country where religious minorities account for roughly 4 percent — three quarters of whom are Christians — of its 170 million people.

In early August, the WCC head, Kenyan Methodist Samuel Kobia, protested to the Pakistani government over violence in Punjab province when Muslims torched Christian homes and 8 people were killed, seven of them burned to death. Reports at the time said the attacks in Gojra town were sparked by allegations, denied by church leaders as well as Pakistani government officials, that Christians had desecrated the Koran.

pakistani-christians-2Pakistani government officials said the violence, which also brought protests from Pope Benedict, was the work of Islamist groups linked to al Qaeda and the country’s Taliban movement.

(Photo: Christians grieve after funerals of Gojra attack victims, 2 Aug 2009/Mohsin Raza)

Read our report from Geneva here.

Charges of oppression of Christians in Pakistan are frequently heard in international meetings such as the WCC session. Complaints often surface at United Nations meetings. What do you think? Are these charges justified?

Before responding, consider the following articles in the international secular and Christian press. Are they accurate? If you think they don’t portray the real situation in Pakistan, how do you think international media should report about the Christian minority in Pakistan?

Six Christians burnt alive in Pakistan violence (Reuters, 1 Aug 2009)

Pakistan hurt by killing of Christians: church head (Reuters, 4 Aug 2009)

Christians demand repeal of blasphemy laws (UCANews, 6 Aug 2009)

Scrap blasphemy laws which bring shame on Islam and Pakistan, Muslim scholar says (Asianews, 10 Aug 2009)

Some 20 million Christians to mark ‘black day’ against persecution in Pakistan (Asianews, 11 Aug 2009)

Violations of human rights in Pakistan: 75% of cases remain unpunished (Asianews, 21 Aug 2009)

Intolerance is sweeping across Pakistan (The Guardian, 24 Aug 2009)

Pakistan gains from defending diversity (Daily Star, 24 Aug 2009)

Punjab: Christian victims of the massacres in Gojra reported by police (Asianews, 25 Aug 2009)

PAKISTAN: Attacks on Christians Spotlight Blasphemy Laws (IPS, 25 Aug 2009)

Pakistan: Christians want blasphemy laws repealed (SperoNews, 26 Aug 2009)

Memo to U.N.: Stop Muslims from killing Christians (WorldNetDaily, 27 Aug 2009)

Church dissatisfied over slow prosecution of rioters (UCANews, 2 Sept 2009)

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65 comments

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The UN should initiate a mission to rescue the minorities in Pakistan. India & other countries like the US, UK etc. should provide them amnesty & the means for relocation. Pakistan has become a radical & an intolerant nation & one can’t even begin to imagine the kind cruelty & injustice being inflicted on it’s minorities at this time.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Christians especially their evangelists and preachers are not that holy and the entire Christian world is not holy as not to warrant such kind of reactions in any society be it Muslim majority Pakistan or Sanatan Dharm majority India. They deliberately indulge in violence provoking activities like deliberately reaching out to people in order to change their faith, changing demography. Christians need to be honest and abandon practices which basically is spreading a faith based illogical crap which disallows them to give the right of peaceful existence to anyone who is a non Christian.

Christians deliberately do not believe in rationality, peace and right of existence of non Christians… Chruch and Christians indulged in mass killing of natives in United States and Australia and these two nations can be said to be founded on Chruch + State Sponsored Racism and Terrorism. As recently as in 2002, Christians in Congo (Congo is 80% Christians… Thanks to grand schemes of Church and Christians) used to eat natives (Pygmies) who were non Christians believing that it will give them divine powers. Haiti is again a nation where Christians indulge in state sponsored racism.

The Church’s (preacher and evangelists) work is spent in chalking out devilish plans and grand schemes of conversion. India being Sanatan Dharm majority nation (as of now), having all inclusiveness as base is being demographically changed by Christians. I had a lengthy conversation with an evangelist Cathy Douglass at

http://agapepartners.org/authors/30/Cath y-Douglas

The article on which I was having conversation was titled “The Three Most Important Skills in Witnessing to Hindus” by Cathy Douglass and can be described as outline of a grand scheme of conversion of Sanatan Dharmis into Christians. The article has been removed by the Christians. It may have raised doubts on their faith within their community I guess.

http://agapepartners.org/articles/48/1/T he-Three-Most-Important-Skills-in-Witnes sing-to-Hindus/Page1.html

Anyhow, I had asked her following simple questions

START OF QUESTIONS

What you are doing is denouncing a religion and trying to project Christianity as a religion which is superior to Hinduism. I do not understand why you have to indulge in this act.

Why are you not content within the realms of your religion?

Do you not get sleep till you denounce other religions everyday?

Do you feel content when you deep dive into history and learn that Christianity has grown, spread on basis of violence and money?

Do you feel good after you have changed the demography of a region?

Would like the demographies of your nation/ area changed?

Do you feel extremely contended after fooling illiterate and poor people and buying their religion by money power?

Why don’t you engage in a much better activity like returning the money and wealth looted, pillaged, robbed by Christians from India back to India along with interest?

END OF QUESTIONS

Cathy Douglass didn’t answer any of the questions and started preaching me Christianity.

One of her initial reactions to my questions was “Are you trying to convert me?” The question itself throws a lot of answers as to what her life is going to be spent and what is her true profession for which she gets money.

Then she also roped in converts who were trying to preach me. Anyone can make out that the persons she roped in to convert me based on carefully woven web of lies were all making a living by acting under the grand scheme of conversion planned and executed by Church.

Christians besides the above, also indulge in deliberate acts of harming a society. See this post by Christians which is meant to stoke violence where in they are deliberately highlighting that a person who believes in Lord Sri Krishna is inferior. See this @ http://yeshusamaj.org/FAQ/are-Krishna-an d-Christ-same.htm

As one runs through their site, we find that it is full of crap and bullshit and Church + Christians definitely try to confuse people by lifting terms from Sanatan Dharm like Sanatan Dharm, Brahmin, Deepawali to convert people.

What World Christian Council wants is that there should be no non Christian left in the world. What is more saddening is that organizations like United Nations etc are all Christian dominated and run on the lines of Christian faith which is crap and not on rationality, sanity.

The acts of Church and Christians, if not leashed in India, I am afraid will engulf India sooner or later in RIOTS, HATRED, SUSPICION and I feel extremely sad for the Sanatan Dharmis who lost lives fighting Christian barbarians

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit,

Drop the condescending attitude. Unlike the situation in neighbouring India, there aren’t too many evangelists in Pakistan. In that country, Muslim Pakistanis are out to kill religious minorities, plain and simple. Is it any wonder that Pakistan gets called out for its treatment of Christians? Just look at what they do to Muslim minorities like the Shias or Ahmadis.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive

Robert Evans:
Nice article. Lot of home work done by citing related URLs. But readers would have benefitted more if you had widened the scope of your article–by writing about violence against all minorities—not just Christians. Where else will you get a chance to educate Reuter Readers that Ahmadiyyas Muslims are officially declared as non-Muslim, the violence/rapes/conversions of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan is continuing?
Blasphemy law established by Zia-ul-Haq’s exists since last 23 yrs time. The guy is dead and law is still there. Pakistanis must be for this law then. For a country seeking democracy, such laws need to be scrapped and I see no long march by Pakistanis on that and nor did I see the support of Muslims with Christian supporters in the street—although I did see lot of support on the internet blogs. Irony is that the biggest blasphemy is committed by Zia by calling Pakistan the “citadel of Islam” for the simple common sense that the actions of Pakistan better not be (cannot be) explained within the realm of Islam.
I know my dear Pakistani friends will point fingers at India and cite examples, but there is a difference. India does not have blasphemy law so incidents are not directly or indirectly state-sponsored. Pakistan cannot claim that until the law is scrapped. Barring limited incidents condemned, Christians in India—just like anyone else-are breathing fresh air. That’s the view of the minorities in general—including the Indian Muslim leaders like Zakir Naik (he has been issued fatwa for his misrepresenting Islam). Even he says that the Indian constitution is THE BEST in the world with respect to religions. But India’s Christian problem can be explained using reverse logic—Hindus are not too sensitive to desecration issue (but becoming more so), it is just the fear of encroachment by the Christian missionaries that more recently causes problems. But all said and done, it is for anyone to judge how free an Indian or a Pakistani Christian is.
But to me law exists or not, the twisted ideology of certain Muslims is the problem that gives them a short fuse who then kill people for desecrating Koran-which is worse than idolatry that Muslims claim prohibited by Islam.
In any case, well at least Pope/Christians are powerful enough to pressure Pakistan to help Christians, which will result in great help to all non-Muslims.
________________________________________ _

@Rohit: Christians are free and breathing fresh air and free to talk to have intense discussion on religion with Hindus (or anyone else) and still have dinner together.
How many Hindus are Sanatan Dharmis in India? What place do non-Santan Dharmis hold in your post?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Are we all Hindus now – Lisa Miller. See the comments.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155/output  /comments

An intriguing piece in Newsweek, but the hindu bashing by some bloggers was shocking, and it appears religious hatred seems to be engulfing the world. As Rohit has clearly underscored, fabrication of lies is rampant especially using Sanskrit terms and Vedas by some converts. Explaining virtues of ones own religion is understandable, but tarnishing others faith is a different trait altogether.

Hopefully the Newsweek articles message (from RIG VEDA) will be understood by all. ONE GOD MANY MESSENGERS. Their obdurate and uncivilized way to protect their religion has insulated Islam well, up until now. The fact of the matter is- their model, historically, is the only successful way to thwart poaching. Why not religious poaching be addressed internationally. It will not be – as one religion in its self interest tries to dominate and prevails at the UN.

Myself on record- religious poaching, hatred and killings are unacceptable.

Rohit,
It is very evident where your beliefs lay. It is very important that you stop associating westerners as Christians and understand the difference between the label of christian and someone who is actually a practicing Christian. All of the events you attribute above are on the heads of westerners, not Christians. If someone has the faith and conviction to hold a religious belief then they certainly should share that with those around them otherwise do they truly believe? Your attitude is very poor and what you call ‘simple questions’ above were clearly leading and traps. Those questions remind me of a Michael Moore movie not someone who wants true dialogue on an issue.

Lastly it must be said that you are absolutely wrong when you state “Christians deliberately do not believe in rationality, peace and right of existence of non Christians…”. That is clearly the stance of extremists of Islam and extremely offensive to state that Christians do not believe in the right of existence of non Christians. These response will, no doubt, not change your mind but you cannot post a comment like above without enticing passionate responses when you simply do not make a strong arguement for… anything.

Posted by Steven | Report as abusive

Steven

Quote ; It is very important that you stop associating westerners as Christians and understand the difference between the label of christian and someone who is actually a practicing Christian-unquote

Hindus are critical of conversions and only conversions
not christians or westerners.Hope this clarifies your concerns.

The difference is that if a muslim converts to another religion they are subject to the penalty of death. Whereas if a hindu or christian converts they aren’t beheaded.

Most westerners especially outside the US don’t truly practice their form of christianity any more. The churches are simply inflating their numbers. In fact the only binding stronghold for the church so far has been Latin America.

It is also important to note that there are significant differences between Christianity in its original incarnation as a Middle Eastern Religion (see the coptic or syriac church) and Western christianity. They are completely disparate. Even the Byzantine Eastern orthodox church which is more closely related to Middle Eastern Christianity is vastly different from “Western” christianity.

Posted by Dave | Report as abusive

Avatar- Thank you for the clarification on what is the general belief of those who follow hinduism. My point stands that, in the context of addressing Rohit, he is making a much broader association of christians. It sounds like he is stepping out of the beliefs of hinduism by ranting on about events of westerners and attributing them to Christianity.

At least that is how I read Rohit’s comment. What do you think?

By the way, almost completely off the subject, I AM a recent convert to Indian food! It is absolutely wonderful.

Posted by Steve | Report as abusive

In Pakistan, religion is a tool of national unity, that politics of religion in Pakistan, is what the Mafia military used to get all Pakistani’s to hate India and get proxy Islamic Armies to keep sending militants to attack at India.

Islam, if practiced with moderism, would promote brotherhood with people of any religion. Pakistan is not as such, most of the population, has been taught from an early childhood age to hate hindus, and Indians and blame all their problems on someone else, rather than take a collective national responsibility or collectively admit fault and shame at the last 3 wars started with India and the 3million genocide of East Bengali’s by the Pakistani Army.

Pakistan is not a moderate country, neither are most of its uneducated people.

In 60 years, a religiously driven Pakistan has achieved nothing, its people have no sense of introspect, accept no blame for the last three wars, 3 million genocide accept no resposibility for terrorism on other countries, even their own (they still blame india) and still live a Haraam existence, from the hardwork of others (IMF, USA and donations from others).

And with that Haraam money, keep making more nuclear weapons to fight India and are reverse engineering U.S. missiles to point at India. India did not start any wars with Pakistan, but DID win them all and decisively, no thanks to the unprofessional army of Pak.

It is the Christian Societies and through their charity that Pakistan survives as a muslim country and the beloved thief A.Q. Khan, who stole blueprints for Pak’s nuclear program.

It is sad to see such an angry and ungrateful national populace, unrepentant, unthankful and still fueld by religious hatred, while the U.S. and IMF give free money to put in Pakistan’s begging bowl.

Compared to India, except for cricket, Pakistan has given humanity only terrorism, nothing else. No productive human achievements for the benefit of mankind.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Steve:
@My point stands that, in the context of addressing Rohit, he is making a much broader association of christians. It sounds like he is stepping out of the beliefs of hinduism by ranting on about events of westerners and attributing them to Christianity.”
-Let us not get into playing with words. It is a fact that native americans have been wiped out by Americans. It is mentioned in the history that after the war, the second phase was taken over by the missioniories to convert the weakened natives. Look at Native Indian customs–their rituals/customs can be easily seen as unacceptable to a orthodox practicing Christian. Several articles are available that emphasize the role of Church in converting native americans–no surprise though.
Recently US Senate Committee Apologized to All Native Americans for Violence and Maltreatment by U.S. Citizens (that includes christians, practicing or not).
“Apologizes on behalf of the people of the United States to all Native Peoples for the many instances of violence, maltreatment, and neglect inflicted on Native Peoples by citizens of the United States,” the resolution reads. (Aug 10, 2009).

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/ar ticle.aspx?RsrcID=52254

“One of the earliest resistance efforts to the Christian church came in the form of a letter to Pope John Paul II. It read:

“We, Indians of the Andes and America, decided to take advantage of John Paul II’s visit to return to him his Bible because in five centuries it has given us neither love, nor peace, nor justice. Please, take your Bible and give it back to our oppressors, because they need its moral precepts more than we. Since the arrival of Christopher Columbus the Bible was imposed upon America with force: European culture, language, religion, and values. The Bible came to us as part of imposed colonial change. It was the ideological arm of the colonial assault. The Spanish sword, which by day attacked and assassinated the body of the Indians, by night changed itself into the cross which attacked the Indian soul.”

Australians committed the similar crime by eliminating aboriginals and then apologized.

The worse is not to accept this as truly a violent history.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Answers to Steven, Keith, Rajeev

First of all apologize in case you didn’t get the right message from my post. I have to re write some of the things which I posted after reading comments from Keith.
I am criticizing Christianity + Churches + Evangelists + Preachers herein after Christians. The purpose of my post is to make a simple point that end result of Christianity and Islam is same. Both religions have a basis which can be called as exclusivity of something termed as God/ Son of God/ Doorkeeper to God/ Jesus by Christians and Allah by Islamists. Islam takes crude measures against non Islamics. Christians used to take similar attitude towards non Christians but with time, modified their behavior so that they appear more like lamb but produce the results of wolves.

Answer to Rajeev: You need basic understanding about religion. Religion is Christianity/ Islam etc. What India has is Sanatan Dharm which is not religion. Hindu is a derogatory term coined by westerners (Islamists) which was equivalent of kaffir/ thief etc which post continued use over a period of time, does not sound derogatory.

All Others:

Would you stand for Christians who themselves are not holy and deliberately indulge in acts knowing that the end result of acts will be disharmony in society in form of riots? And think of the fact that India which is the only house for Sanatan Dharm and also houses entire religions of world where Christians and Muslims are in numbers which cannot be termed as minority has been able to exist in peace with all religions except Christianity and Muslims.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Sorry I forgot to address Rajeev’s one question… My views about non Sanatan Dharmis. I don’t give a damn to what a non Sanatan Dharmi or a Sanatan Dharmi does till it is aimed towards peace, well being of all.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

G watcher…

Lets agree to disagree that Pakistan has given nothing to the world, but then again we only have been Independent since 1947, but truly havnt liberated the country from the elite minorty, which rules n ruled for the last 6 decades. So Jinnah vision of truly democratic Pakistan not been achieved yet, but not impossible.

Before the idiots jump and start saying yes the Punjabi mafia etc n so on rules…which I have heard many times by my idiotic neighours. I wonder what has India given the world?

1)Few call centres, even tho they try their best to say speaking to Dave but we know its Deepak. You cant hide behind the name cause the accent gives it away idiots. Now I dont see the point, kos one should be proud of ones true identity so the conversation starts on a lie…which is so annoying to customers on the other side of the phone sitting in the UK r eleswhere.

(Not forgetting the countless title of bolloywood movies trying to promote “proud to be idiot” I could agree 100% it hasnt made idiots feel proud.)

2)When it comes to talk of Pakistan, we have achieved few milestones and yes alot more to achievesd. But one needs to take the idiotic blindfold off, look at the reality. If it was not for the Pakis maybe it would the idiots who would be fighting the Taliban. So lets have little courtsy to say thank u pak…

Personaly when one talks of Pakistan they involve Islam with it so much so maybe one should look at the achievement of the Mulsims, who made the advances in medication, astrology, navigation n so on.

Let me guess, why do western go to India?

To idulge in their sick fantasies, n enjoy the indian women. Which disapoints them when they cant do the same in other Islamic counties well at least not openly.

When one thinks of India, if one thing that comes into anyone mind is not the hindu temples, budhas, cows, monkeys n so on. Lets agree idiots plz its the Taj Mahal n who built that? Definetly not Hanuman???

What is the point of having a law which protects minorties, but in reality the same people who should be holding the law were the involved in mass murder of muslims in Gujrat n to this day no one has been brought to justice for over 2000 muslims deaths!!!!

Countless rapes, burning of property n so on nway u idiots should know too well n most of you would have witnissed with your own eyes n even maybe inviolved init. I would not be surprised with so much venom u have in your bellies agianst pakis. Maybe they should let the dogs of the leash facing pakistan n we manage the rest lol…

So I can understand the hatred but let me tell you Pakistan is here to stay on the Map of the World!!!

By the way Gb when does membership with RSA finishes?lol

Posted by ali | Report as abusive

To Ali:

A person who has to make a statement like Pakistan is here to stay on map of world doesn’t need to be countered by anyone. Whatever you may rant, or people like Zakir Naik rant, most of terrorism of this world links back to muslims and Paksitan tops the list alng with Afghanistan. No one needs Paki support to fight terrorism although Pakis do need everything from money to gun and bullets from entire world. The current fight against terrorism is a sham by Paksitan. Let Pakistan not fight terrorism or continue to pretend to fight terrorism or even start open sponsorship of terrorism, the world, including India are strong enough to tackle and send Islamic Terrorists below the dirt.

And yes a person like Jinnah who was sponsorer of murder of countless Indians can at best be termed Sickular.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

To RAJEEV:

@My point stands that, in the context of addressing Rohit, he is making a much broader association of christians. It sounds like he is stepping out of the beliefs of hinduism by ranting on about events of westerners and attributing them to Christianity

This is the most interesting statement I read. It sounds similar. But still, can you please elaborate on it Rajeev? Give me example as that would surely help me to better understand as to how westerners (Non Christians) and Christians become different when genocide was/ is carried out. Do they post genocide become Christians or stay westerners?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

September 5th, 2009, 12:38 pm GMT Sorry to have last comment addressed to Rajeev. The query is for Steven.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

I dont understand why the minorities still exist in Pakistan? they should have gotten the clue by now. Minorities formed 23% in 1947 and now close to 3%, the consitution legally declares them as 2nd class citizens (and some sects of muslims too).

Islam in Pakistan is very unique, its not the same Islam u find in India, Turkey, Malasia or any other country. There is pretence of being modern but deep inside is a simmering couldron of pre historic regressive mentality

The form of Islam followed in pakistan is result of mental slavery to Saudi Arabia. All these years of financial aid, soft oil loans and anonymous grants to Madarsas and Taliban have all resulted in capitulation of secular thinking.

The Wahabis of Saudi arabia have had a close grip on power in Pakistan, even today Musharaff got his skin saved by paying a trip to his Saudi masters, and he is the latest in a long paki leaders (Zia, Nawaz etc etc).

Saudi Arabia needs a vassal state and there is noone more eager than pakistan.

Are they reoports accurate? YES and Underreported
Do I expect things to change? NO

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive

At least in America people will claim on a survey that they are christian because they do not consider themselves, muslim, buddist, hinu etc. That has nothing to do with one true faith and following. Agreed? If youa are born into a title that but do not practice the precepts of the religion that does not make you a follower of that religion. America is secular with true Christians few a far between unfortunately. If we were a majority and a true Christian nation our actions and standing with the world community would be very different. Hope that helps.

Posted by Steven | Report as abusive

Rohit:
Thanks although even with my limited knowledge, I know the origin of word “Hindu”. I definitely do not claim to be an expert of the any religion, but learning is a continuous process–for anyone.

A suggestion to you: I am not asking you to sing and dance to please the other but your tone is counterproductive to the dialogue unless it is helping you in the catharsis. I will appreciate if in the future you keep the dialogue collegial–at least with me.
CHEERS!!!

It is all diversion from the topic. Recent victim christians/families in Pakistan deserve anyone’s sympathy, apart from the ongoing discussion which is targeted towards missionaries not towards a peaceful practicing Christian.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

In my earlier post, the following text is from a letter written by a native american to Pope John Paul II and thus indicates the role of Church on that issue.
This is one of the earliest resistance efforts to the Christian church. It read:

“We, Indians of the Andes and America, decided to take advantage of John Paul II’s visit to return to him his Bible because in five centuries it has given us neither love, nor peace, nor justice. Please, take your Bible and give it back to our oppressors, because they need its moral precepts more than we. Since the arrival of Christopher Columbus the Bible was imposed upon America with force: European culture, language, religion, and values. The Bible came to us as part of imposed colonial change. It was the ideological arm of the colonial assault. The Spanish sword, which by day attacked and assassinated the body of the Indians, by night changed itself into the cross which attacked the Indian soul.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Ali:

Your ignorant, misinformed & fallacious comments clearly underline as to who’s the ‘idiot’ on this blog. At a time, when the world is looking towards India (along with China) as the premier engine of global growth & counting on it to drive the world out of the current recession, you are asking the question ‘what has India given to the world?’. Debating India’s merits & achievements with someone like you would be a waste of one’s time since you don’t seem to have the intellectual capacity or the moral courage to look beyond the bias & hatred, which has clouded your vision since childhood. You like to think of India as a country with some call centers, poverty, intolerance etc. not because you don’t know any better but because the Anti-India vaccination which you received in your infancy won’t allow you to accept the reality as it exists. Your temperament & false ego won’t allow you accept India as a prosperous & secular democracy because your country never was & never will be, any of those.

Westerners don’t travel to India for all the moronic indulgences you mentioned. Nor do they go to see Taj Mahal, which has existed for centuries. They travel to India because they have accepted India as a global economic power. There isn’t a Fortune 500 company out there today, which doesn’t have an address in India. If you ever get out of your radical shell & read a global business journal, magazine or paper, you’ll know as to why not just westerners but the world travels to India.

You Pakistanis criticizing India’s secularism is like a blind man criticizing the beauty of Taj Mahal. Pakistanis like yourself don’t even know the ‘S’ of secularism because you’ve only read about it in books but never experienced it. How many Pakistanis can say that they live in the same apartment building which has Hindus or Christians? How many can say that they’ve work in the same office with a Sikh or Parsi? How many can even say that they have a non-muslim friend? You simply don’t have the moral right to point fingers at other’s secularism when the total minority population of your country is less than 2% (& they too live in utmost fear & misery). Get your minority population to at least 10% before you ever start talking about India’s secularism.

Now talking about Pakistan; the fact that you & many of your fellow Pakistanis have to repeatedly declare on blogs that Pakistan will continue to exist, says a lot about the current condition of your country. One doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out as to what the ‘Failed, Bankrupt & Terrorist Nation’ of Pakistan has given to or taken from the world. I’m sure even you know the answer to that one.

I don’t really expect it from you but if ever a day comes when you start wondering as to why your country has become such a colossal failure, I suggest that you get in front of a mirror & take a good hard look.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Attention all commenting on this post — strong opinions are fine, but we don’t want emotional terms like “idiot” here to express them. We will have to stop posting some comments if they stoop to simple name-calling. Stand up for what you think, yes, but with some dignity, please.

Ali: With due respect, my response:

@When one thinks of India, if one thing that comes into anyone mind is not the hindu temples, budhas, cows, monkeys n so on. Lets agree idiots plz its the Taj Mahal n who built that? Definetly not Hanuman???
—With such an open distasteful exhibition of your religious intolerance, is there a surprise why Christians were burnt to death by the majority Muslims? That also tells your about the status of Hindu minorities in Pakistan. To the best of my knowledge Indians dislike militant twisted version of Islam–but respect Islam per se. India has 13% of the total population Muslims—-slightly smaller than Pakistan’s total population—-Indians cannot simply disrespect Islam or for that matter any other religion. It is the fundamentalism in the religion which Indians often attack unlike your blanket anti-Hindu and anti-Budhism attitude.

@rapes: FYI here is a news for you from Pakistan: “On average, 100 women are raped every 24 hours in Karachi city alone, and a majority of them are working women, said Additional Police Surgeon (APS) Dr Zulfiqar Siyal. A majority of them are working class women or those working as domestic help and are mostly up to 20 years old, he said.”
@why do western go to India? To indulge in their sick fantasies”: Shows your deprived status and perverted mind. No wonder, with a promise of spending time with 74 virgins, suicide bombers are ready to blow away the innocents. I am curious to know the motivation of a female suicide bomber?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev, Mortal, Tom Heneghan

Gentlemen, it can be summed up easily, Pakistani’s lack human compassion towards non-muslims. It is evident here in these blogs and the history before us.

With religion so pervasive in every day life for some, in Pakistan, it still is not possible for Pakistani’s to find an ounce of moral human compassion towards non-muslims and women. Humanity and compassion are completely abscent from the Pakistani heart towards non-muslims and women.

This is how Pakistani’s appear to us non-muslims, based on their past history and current history and what is said on these blogs.

If any of you disagree, please do so with explanation. Please state what kind of human beings you view Pakistani’s as.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Ali:
I missed this:
@What is the point of having a law which protects minorties, but in reality the same people who should be holding the law were the involved in mass murder of muslims in Gujrat n to this day no one has been brought to justice for over 2000 muslims deaths!!!!”
–I was almost touched by your concern for Indian Muslims and the tears you are shedding for them. But then I recalled you are the guy who raised the slogan “Long live LeT” on one Reuter blog after Mumbai 26/11 attack. Your confession can be pulled to remind you if you need. The same LeT guys killed 166 victims and 40 among them were Muslims. So you admire the terrorists who killed Muslims in India. So do not shed crocodile tears for indian Muslims–they are much safer in India than in pakistan. BTW, Bangladeshis are still waiting for an apology from pakistan for the genocide of 2.5million Muslims+Hindus by Pak Army in the then E.Pakistan. Have a moral courage to face these questions.

@what has India given the world?
1)Few call centres, even tho they try their best to say speaking to Dave but we know its Deepak. You cant hide behind the name”
–I read a news longtime ago that a bunch of young Pakistanis decided to clean up the city—clear away the litter and do janitor’s work to raise awareness among the Pakistanis. They valued that no job is demeaning. I guess you would laugh at them like you do with people working in Indian call centers. These people are providing service to the world and are earning money through hardwork–nothing bad about it. Do your own homework to find the contribution of Indian science and technology professionals and doctors to the world by working in India or aborad–if you care to glance beoynd call centers. Talk to some elder around you if you really do not know why Deepak might change his name to Dave in certain jobs. For the same reason that a Saifuddin-Ali Sheikh will change to Sam.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Ali Wrote:–

“what has India given the world?

Few call centres, even tho they try their best to say speaking to Dave but we know its Deepak. You cant hide behind the name”

Obviously you are jealous from a Deepak who can get a good paying job in an International call center while sitting in India. Almost every big IT company has a R & D wing in India, India has made the cheapest car and many auto companies are looking at india for small car manufacturing for export. This is happening right when you guys are slitting each others throat over the height of your SALWAR from your ankle. But you sound like world has gone retard, how can they invest billions in a country like India. And let me repeat myself, They are INVESTING not GIVING AID or FILLING BEGGING BOWLS.

Well, whats Pakistan’s contribution or reputation in the World we live ?

Will you enlighten us or you are just coming out of your hole, spray bullets of hatred and hide again as a terrorist does.

I am sorry if I hurt your ego, But truth is truth. Have guts then face it, answer it.

Posted by singh | Report as abusive

Sorry Rajeev… Point noted. The thing I want to point out is why should UN give an ear to Church… Church + Christians are not holy. If UN gives ear to Church, it listens to an organization which itself has comitted or allowed to commit or stood mute spectator to genocide/ denial of right to existence of/ to non Christians. If that the case be then it should also listen to Islamic apex bodies. And when UN takes the side of one religious organization, it will automatically send all other religions to depths of insecurity, suspicion because it is impossible to enter into same rational dialogue with anyone who has the blind faith that what that person believes is true.

Steven with all due respects to your feelings, one needs to determine whether the people who died were true Christians or not and people who killed were true Muslims or not.

UN should focus it’s efforts to draft strict laws to reign in the religious torch bearers and organized religions. We as of now do not know how much of money the organized religions rake in and what is the end use of the funds they rake in but we do know that their activities result in riots/ genocide directly or indirectly. The activities of the religious torch bearers and propagandists have to be rationalized, whetted, sanctioned by law in case we agree that all religions are equal. A deep scruitiny into the activities of the religious torch bearers and their finances will be good for getting rid of poverty, protection of environment, population control, food security, potable water problem etc etc.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit, Definately this is something we can agree on. There is no way to know for sure if those who died were truly Christians and if those who killed them were truly Muslims. For the sake of the muslim community and conscience I hope, and expect, that the killers are ignorant extremists. For the sake of the souls of those who died I hope they are truly Christians.

Posted by Steven | Report as abusive

Hindus protest as nurse goes missing

Staff Report

KARACHI: Dozens of people from the Hindu Maheshwari community gathered outside the Karachi Press Club on Tuesday to demand the safe return of Bano, a young Hindu nurse working at a private hospital, who went missing three weeks ago.

Carrying placards and banners, the protestors feared that Bano might be killed or forced to convert her religion. The elders of the community, Rajo, Narain and others, told the media that Bano had a row with the owner of the hospital where she worked before she went missing.

“Though the police have registered a case, nothing has been done for her return so far,” the protestors said.

The protestors demanded the federal and provincial government, law enforcement agencies and civil society organizations to ensure the safe release and return of Bano.

Kidnapping and forced conversion of Hindu women is not a new phenomenon in Sindh as several such cases have occurred throughout the province in the past.

Home | Karachi

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=200999\story_9-9-2009_pg12_9

STEVEN:

Since each and every person who killed non Christian natives of America and Australia is/ was not Christian (note the ease of declaration without remorse and deciciveness about Christian) and World Council of Chruch felt no need to raise the issue anywhere in world, it should stick to the same pattern everytime, who so ever gets killed. Evil may be laced with honey words and sold in market with incentives but not to all. By the way what are your feelings towards UN Soilders who are/ were out (out to kill) in Iraq and Afghanistan and got killed? I didn’t hear World Council of Church reject them as westerners… However westerners who did the crimes till now do find place for special prayers by World Council of Church… After all sin has to be washed?

I also admire the partiality in yours, feelings of Church and Christians towards non Christians and feel no remorse for the persons who have died because those who died are being supported by World Council of Church, the epitome of dubiousness.

No need for UN to give an ear to Church. It should summarily dismiss all religious interference and remove all those who harbor sympathy with organized religions. Most of organized religion are/ were deeply involved in riots, genocide. UN should take a proactive step and scrutinize the activities, finances and end use of finances by religious organizatons and fix a meeting of those guilty with self exploding guns.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

@Robert Evans,

Every religious minority in Pakistan walks on eggshells there and live in fear. It is constitutionally deemed that Kaffirs have less value as human beings, than muslims do, I believe a Kaffir, or non-muslim is valued at 1/4 the human value that a muslim is in Pakistan and women at 1/2 the value of a man.

A Kaffir woman in Pakistan is theoretically 1/8 the value of a Pakistani Muslim man, using that scale!

In the U.S., we called people who treated other races and religions like this, bigoted people, much like the KKK.

Somebody please correct me, if any of the facts are wrong. I stand corrected, if any are.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Rohit: I thought we had come to a place of understanding. Not that we agreed with each other but some mutual understanding. That was until your last post. You are all over the place pulling things out of history that have nothing to do with this article or the discussions between you and me.
I am done engaging with you anymore because your hatred is unreasonable and simply being stirred through this banter.
History is there for us to learn from in order to not make the same mistakes. It is not there to pay for those mistakes forever…

Posted by Steven | Report as abusive

Steven,

Any one can read your statements and conclude whether they are pro Christians or not. It would not be possible for me to reach to you on a level of rationality. And I also have a feeling that you are an evangelist like Cathy Douglass.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit,
You are correct that I am a Christian and that I evangelize and support evangelization (in India in fact). I also agree with you that we would not come to an understanding based on rational thought because our foundations for rationalization are vastly different. What I find rational you find offensive and the opposite is true.

Posted by Steven | Report as abusive

Steven:

Since you are a practicing Christian, I have a comment and questions.

Interestingly, from what you say, I see a commonality (NEGATIVE) between Muslims and Christians.

Christians when reminded of the gruesome history by the west (practicing + non-practicing Christians) ask others to “understand the difference between the label of christian and someone who is actually a practicing Christian.” (your words). So what do you say about the part of letter of a native American to Pope ( I posted on this blog 2 times? Going by that letter, it seems like practicing Christians also deserve some credit for the native americans cleansing? Do you acknowlege the role of Church?

Similarly, Muslims say that a true Muslim who practices Islam cannot kill innocents and those who kill are not true Muslims. If they are pushed to the corner, they will explain their actions by “Jihad” (terrorists as freedom fighters against an enemy who has initiated war against them). Ask them about innocent Muslims (who have nothing to do with Jihad like 40 victims in Mumbai attack) getting killed in collateral damage by these so-called Jihadis, the answer will be that these Muslims are sacrificing their lives for good cause–Jihad. Everyone got a rationale! The ready explanations are served to explain the sickening events.

@You are correct that I am a Christian and that I evangelize and support evangelization (in India in fact).”
-posted by Steven
–I understand that you are fulfilling your duty as a practicing Christian. But how do you explain this as a human in context of the culture of a place? Conversion stuff has started to ruin the communal harmony of Indian society, partly because missionaries are using the social problems (eg. dalits etc…..) in the system as an invalid logic for converting Hindus. Would you still prefer to achieve your targets (converts) even if the end result is religious intolerance and communal hatred in a society?
In India, there is no one can and should stop Christians from building Churches and any religious activity. Everyone in India knows the way to Church and the true seeker will come to the Church. So Christianity will grow at a slower rate but will have true seekers not the exploited ones. No one will stop genuine conversions. It is one’s right in India. But I oppose exploitation and insulting the poor to achive this. Yesterday I was seeing an ad on TV. Very nice ad since the it was about donating money to an organization which will give shoes to the poor kids around the world. It was a long ad with toll-free # and I was impressed by the ad because it was for the kids and I was thinking here is someone who is doing it without expecting anything in return. But the model couple in the ad destroyed my 2 minute short nice feeling when they next said it is going to be as a Christmas gift and If I donate I will get bunch of books on Christainity—means missionaries are raising funds for conversions; gently sweetly exploiting poverty and insulting the poor in the name of religion is simply disgusting. Why cannot these organizations practice REAL philanthropy than exploitation in the name of GOD? Kids have their GOD already they just need shoes. This ad is just one example how conversions take place and that is what is being increasingly opposed—I favor those who oppose this peacefully.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Steven and Rohit,

“You are correct that I am a Christian and that I evangelize and support evangelization (in India in fact). I also agree with you that we would not come to an understanding based on rational thought because our foundations for rationalization are vastly different. What I find rational you find offensive and the opposite is true.
- Posted by Steven ”

–>Guys, let me tell you, living and growing up as a Hindu among Christians and almost every kind of religion, let me tell, no one religion has the answer, it simply cannot, it is illogical. They say that faith is blind, and that is the problem, as thinking humans, we should never be blind, especially to the politics of religion. When people begin to believe blindly, the entire world becomes blind (Gandhi)and we creat divisions, which only serve political means.

I can tell you, for certainty, that there are many paths to the same place, the same way you can reroute on a highway, using a navigation, the same way you can get to “GOD”, through many different religions. We may not agree with each other, on how we worship, pray or may not acknowledge each other’s prophets, or higher beings, but one thing is for sure, is the religion, should make you a more tolerant and kind human being, not hateful and destructive.

Supporting one religion or the other, with the intent to expand it and to take over another peoples is the reason, why so much death and genocide takes place, and this is the misues of religion and only suite the original political message of the cabal of men, who write the books to become organized into religions and to expand membership.

The original intent of any religion is to become a more civilized, loving, tolerant and friendly human being. If religion is used politically to shun and denegrate how another person worships or prays, then they are on the wrong side of GOD and Humanity and they are against basic human tolerance, civility and brothership between peoples and serve only to divide humanity and cause further fighting.

God is in one’s heart and not on pieces of paper, or where men gather to meet to plan their assault of expansion on others.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Watch out- Muslims, buddhists and hindus,

Children working as evangelists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvVAV09-d Q8&feature=related

with their intolerance, hatred and ignorance of other religions they must agree to sit in the company of militant, fundamentalist wahabis and similar others. Their conversion frenzy will throw nations into unprecedented communal, unrest by changing the (religious) demographics.

Any blind faith is harmful for the society. Even MK Gandhi’s (person portrayed as god, chiefly by Congressis, who actually stood up for good governance and ended up creating one of the worst governance machinery in world) blind faith was harmful for society. Once you allow common sense not to rule supreme, it results in violence/ riots/ genocide. Fanatics will get a fitting natural reply from society like Islamic terrorists got way back in older times by Raja Bhoj, Shivaji, Sikhs, Christian terrorists got in 1857 and in some recent small incidents. When Church will get the reply on a scale of 1857, the only place where sickularists will be found is under skirts, burkas and sarees (Study British Parliamentary Papers on role of East India Company and Church, protected by the goons). The only thing is, this blind faith and upholding of blind faith as the only truth will continue and no logic, reasoning will prevail till governance is provided by sickularists.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

To Freedom:

At least Church should spare kids from their web. Someone please report to United Nations. If I can file a case (like a First Information Report with Police Station) with United Nations, let me know.

In India, Evangelists have two part of salaries. Their fixed salary portion is meager and will keep them poor for ever. The Church provides them a variable portion which is on the number of conversions they do (Every person in this conversion machinery keeps a record of conversions he does on a monthly basis which is audited for frauds ie, double entries and fake entries). This variable portion is the reason why evangelists are unable to give ear to common sense and are flocking to India and other nations where poverty exists. They also give monetary incentives to poor for becoming Christians. This entire Christian machinery From Evangelist to Pope Benedict cannot stand and win a person from backward caste if that person is not poor, is not threatened & uses common sense to decide whether what these guys speak is logical.

Having said that, ALL religious torch bearers/ propagandists are actually a burden (both mental and physical) on society. Their productivity is zero and their burden is beyond financial calculation. As long as they live on tid bits thrown by society, it is ok. When these propagandists will learn that in order to grow rich one needs to do something productive, they will automatically burn their books and look for employment.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

To Rajeev:

Do you recall when we were debating somewhere else on politics and you asked me my opinion on Shashi Tharoor and I dismissed him as sickular. The chain of posts in this article will enable you to understand why I call the entire GANERU clan and Congressis as collection of sickulars. Congressis and current breed of politicians in India is just as what Churchill said “Men of Straw”. Only Shri Narendra Modi stands out after Shri PV Narshimha Rao, Shri BR Ambedkar as a leader with guts and capability to bring change.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

See this post… Will Church or UN or any Muslim react with same efficiency and vehemence as they do when existence of people of their faith is in question?

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009  /09/10/malaysian-muslims-charged-for-co w-head-protest-against-hindus/

UN has done nothing to stop state sponsored terrorism and racism in entire world especially against minorities in world and it is expected that it will say nothing against terrors and atrocities committed against Sanatan Dharmis simply because we are not Christians and also that the entire Church/ Islam Machinery has been not able to shake our basic belief that all paths and beliefs are ok as long as they are aimed at establishing peace and harmony.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

@Do you recall when we were debating somewhere else on politics and you asked me my opinion on Shashi Tharoor and I dismissed him as sickular.
- Posted by Rohit

—–You had a better explanation for S. Tharoor at that time, calling him an unimpressive leader of zero caliber, ordinary orator, sophisticated communication so cannot relate with common man; more like a Chidambaram. Sickular was not used you and I liked that you treated him as an individual not just another congressi. I am neither a Congressi nor a BJP/RSS; do not like sickular/psedosecular/Sonia-Rome, Mecca/Rome, MMS-sonia puppet terminology as some reason to criticize a person or a political part.

Since when Modi earned the title “Shree” (state economy or Gujrat riots?) even as you kick Mahatma Gandhi’s butt in the same breath. I find chotta Sardar type titles for Modi by his followers as an insult to Sardar Patel. Ambedkar-given secular constitution is ripped apart by Shree Modi.

@Churchill who said “men of straw”: It is surprising that u are quoting a britisher to bring down Indian leaders. He had conflict of interest to state what you quoted. Divide and rule plus supporting Pakistan/Muslim league. His quote has no wisdom and he stinks of bias plus his mood swing problem—liked Nehru—disliked him and liked the “man of straw” again! His man of Straw is Tony Blair who wimped into Bush’s war without question even as the country said NO.

Ambedkar vs Gandhi debate is old stuff—but I respect both—both had plus and minus. Criticism of the self and others can be useful but overdoing it can leave the man bitter and cynic. Ambedkar ran into the latter problem later in his life and turned to Budhism. Gandhi had reconciliatory attitude and ran into problems for that. Both were humans and were born in a system of prejudices and deserve to be spared.

We Indians need to share these nationalists. Our problem is that we have divided them—patel is mine, Nehru is yours, Ambedkar for the Dalits etc..

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

No one has the vehemence and feeling of justice for burning train Indians but everything for the after effects of the burning train. Muslims are responsible for starting the riots and it is irresponsibility not report such existence of such dangerous elements to police before they carry out these acts. In fact people of Gujrat have responded aptly by kicking congressis out from everywhere they had won for the shameless act of congressis and PC Chidambram.

Shri Narendra Modi is not because CM of some family hype and fake media support. He is leading by guts, honesty, commitment even though the entire congressi machinery in power is against him and indulging in unholy acts against him.

What I know is that common sense rules above all the factors of a human body that need no proof. Common sense says that Churchill was right. Decaying useless persons could have waited and avoided partition than setting up a perennial miserable governance system

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit,
you desire to complain to UN. Thats naive bro . The banki moon chap is sleeping on the job. sooner we replace him better. He only knows Korea and doesnt care about anything else. Look what kind of leaders are running UN and Security council. Four of the 5 permanent members of security council belong to one faith, the 5th is a terrible dictatorship. They represent uniformly the enire planet mind you and they all have bombs pointing to all corners of the planet.

Nehru to Vajpayee every Indian Prime Minister urged UN, year after year, to introduce a resolution to dbate banning the nuclear weapons across the board, as expected all appeals were shoved under the carpet by these 5 nations.

Read below, about a British Tamils gut wrenching encounter in SriLanka.We hardly see any clips of SriLankas camps in the news.UN is defunct chief.

“I was there when the UN secretary Ban Ki-moon came in … He stayed there for about 10 minutes and just went. Why didn’t he go into the camp and talk to the people and spend some time asking them what their problems were? I thought he has a responsibility and people were expecting something from him. They expected much from him and he just spent 10 minutes and that’s it.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep  /15/sri-lanka-war-on-tamil-tigers

@No one has the vehemence and feeling of justice for burning train Indians but everything for the after effects of the burning train. Muslims are responsible for starting the riots and it is irresponsibility not report such existence of such dangerous elements to police before they carry out these acts.”
-posted by Rohit

Rohit: I agree with you. But I do not have selective sympathy for a community and I cannot picture myself supporting killing those who did not kill anyone. This is mob behaviour which cannot be expalined for a person writing sitting in front of a computer when the person has the luxury to think. This extends to all communities. Modi can be your role model, it is just that I feel like puking when I see his face. Definitely we have different stands on the issue.

I do not know where you hail from, but going by your action-reaction statement, I would have been butchered in 1984 if Sikhs wanted it. Hindus (political or not) killed Sikhs outside Punjab but Sikhs did not kill me or any other Hindu inside Punjab. I as a Hindu was safe sitting among Sikhs exceot that my head was low with shame for the cowardice of the Hindus were doing all that in the name of …..

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

There’s a difference in the way we think Rajeev. I have a feeling that you look for selective perfection. I do not. I apply common sense and look at overall contribution of a person. That is why you cannot tolerate my criticism of Gandhi who participated in war with Britishers, wrote a letter boasting that he can extort thousands of Sanatan Dharmis to lay their life for Britishers, gave advise of suicide to Jews, flip flopped again to call Hitler as friend with advise of surrender to Britishers and then extorted Britishers to stop Hitler and then finally when time was ripe when Britishers were weakened by efforts of Subhash Chandra Bose, Sepoy Mutiny, WW II, demanded unconditional freedom knowing that it will result in genocide and he won’t be able to control it. He could have done the same thing many times but every time he balked away and quietly went to prison for safety. Now he also did some good things like upliftment of exploited Sanatan Dharmis by bigots, had the power to mass mobilize people, unite them and also kick missionaries hard where it hurts most. But he never led his followers like a leader. He never had the desire to be dispensing outputs of power from front (shifting of responsibility) but chose Nehru for this.

Shri Narendra Modi leads from front. He doesn’t balk away from responsibility. He wields power and dispenses it for development of Gujrat. Genocide happened when Gandhi was THE LEADER, Riots happened when Shri Narendra Modi WAS NOT THE ONLY LEADER. Yet Gandhi is great, Narendra Modi is not.

To Freedom:

I know UN is a Christian dominated agency to protect interests of Rome and Pope Benedict. I do not hope it to act against any injustice in any part of world till it effects Christian Nations. It was for bringing out realities of world for persons who have a religion called secularism standing with a gun called Christianity.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rajeev

please tone down your rhetoric against the best CM of India. Iam not a Gujarati.The so called austerity (sanyaas) life congress party is making a mockery of currently, well preching it sort of, has been adopted by Sri NModi, a life long bachelor all his life.He lives a very simple life. His work earned him a couple of months ago, the best CEO award by a british organization that also owns several newspapers including The Economist.Tarninshing his image is full-time job of congress party and missionaries.

A Twaiwanese president was sent to prison this week and an american governor a few months ago was dismissed, both on corruption charges. How come in all congresss goverment’s illustrious history of central rule, no minister ever tried on corruption crime. Are they all clean, iam sure they are all.

When there are emotions running high its not always easy to be calm, yes, like yourself we all condemn violence. Dont forget that a train load of hindus were burnt to death that triggered the attacks. Have you ever heard of Akshrardam temple massacre (devotees are mainly gujaratis) at all or bombing of sacred city of varanasi, was there any reactionary violence in response to those? no none.

I dont understand what you are talking about sikhs not attacking you in Punjab. Some sikhs did bomb and kill hundreds of hindus flying home from Canada.(You may want tell your punjab findings and debate with families. Did hindus in retaliation attack sikhs in Orissa, Bihar, canada or US? Never. In Indian context, Hindu Religious violence is sporadic and often reactionary, and they dont follow a policy of Jihad or crusade, which means all people of one religion attacking all people of other religion all over the planet.

AZAD:
@Rajeev, please tone down your rhetoric against the best CM of India.

Azad: The sky is not falling if I said something against Modi.
Here is your problem: I dislike Modi and in response you throw the whole kitchen sink at me—your anti-Congress comments (I am not affiliated); wasteful exercise of analyzing my opinion through Congress filter. Just get used to alternate opinion.
@ When there are emotions running high its not always easy to be calm, yes, like yourself we all condemn violence”
–I have not heard anyone say they do not condemn violence. Have you? I am not the one to condone the killings of those who did not kill innocents-be that Muslims terrorists or Hindu fundamentalists—initiators or reactionaries. If Modi’s “emotions were running high” or he watched silently for XYZ reasons that does not make him greatman—just another one from the mob but with special powers. This extends to Congress/Jagdish Tytler etc who directed 1984 Sikh attacks. The pogroms of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Muslims kill innocent masses and I do not indirectly condone the inaction or action of Modi or Tytler types.
@ I dont understand what you are talking about sikhs not attacking you in Punjab. Some sikhs did bomb and kill hundreds of hindus flying home from Canada.(You may want tell your punjab findings and debate with families. Did hindus in retaliation attack sikhs in Orissa, Bihar, canada or US? Never.”
AZAD: I will listen to you once I post on your blog, until then on Reuters I will post my “punjab findings” relevant to the issue. I know what to post and how graphic I should be. Do not worry on that.
In last past, I mentioned the FACT that the common Sikh masses did not attack Hindus in Punjab (minority) after 1984 anti-Sikh attacks. You insist they did by citing the act of Sikh terrorists who blew Kanishka plane—the work of terrorist network Babbar Khalsa. If you are equating Kanishka to Gujrat anti-Muslim reaction, should not the culprits in Gujrat be also labeled terrorists (like Sikh terrorist were) and tried? The act of Sikh terrorists does not equate with the act of Sikh community. Be reasonable. Also, the absence of reaction by Hindus in India after Kanishka explosion does not in any way show the benevolence of Hindus—some of them they killed Sikhs to their hearts content in 1984. I do not know which part of India you hail from–perhaps AP to not know the facts or having such views. But, I am glad to see Hindus and Sikhs in India are happy today for which I give most of the credit to the Sikh community.
Rohit:
@ There’s a difference in the way we think Rajeev. I have a feeling that you look for selective perfection. I do not. I apply common sense and look at overall contribution of a person.
—True, there’s a difference in the way we think. I have expressed my views on different blogs and may be you joined late–I neither seek selective perfection myself nor do I seek perfection in others like in Gandhi (or for that matter Patel, Nehru etc) the way you do. Explaining everything by “common sense” also does not work.
I still love you guys!

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

To Rajeev:

(1) I neither seek selective perfection myself nor do I seek perfection in others like in Gandhi (or for that matter Patel, Nehru etc) the way you do.

Strange statement, contradictory in itself. Your views, however, make me think that you are pro MK Gandhi (not pro Congress but pro MK Gandhi) and that is why I said you won’t be able to appreciate. Riots will continue as long as Christians and Muslims are there. Helm of affairs when in hands of Muslims, it was hell for general public in India. Helm of affairs in hands of Christians, the same problem continued. Helm of affairs even in your hand, the same thing will continue. These things do not occur in Haryana/ HP/ Punjab/ Uttaranchal etc where Christians and Muslims are non existent and also no other violence of religious scale erupts. Change the demography as it is taking place in Haryana, you will see the difference.

(2) Explaining everything by “common sense” also does not work.

True, agreed but which portion of History is accurate, undebated, unprovable otherwise? Right from Indus Valley civilization, Aryan Invasion theory, History is a sham, a lie propagated by western Christians and then proofs planted around it as good as “Big Bang Theory”

See this below in more details at http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/09/12/g ita-misrepresentations/

“Hinduism – the word and perhaps the reality too – was born in the 19th century, a notorious illegitimate child. The father was middle-class British, and the mother, of course, was India. The circumstances of conception are not altogether clear.”
[Jack Hawley, "Naming Hinduism," in The Wilson Quarterly, summer 1991. p. 21.]

Where will you get perfection, in this world which is not perfect?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

There is a good piece which everyone especially faith based organized religions should read and comprehend.
http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle Molt/idUSTRE58D1RT20090914

This would do everyone good.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

I have not heard anyone say they do not condemn violence. Have you?

Maybe you haven’t heard what mullas or Christian preachers said or say. Maybe you don’t know that Timur the Lame and his entire lineage including Aurangzeb is secular as per NCERT books doctored by Congress. This article can also be an eye opener http://www.fact-india.com/Aurangazeb.php

I neither seek selective perfection myself nor do I seek perfection in others like in Gandhi (or for that matter Patel, Nehru etc) the way you do.

That is a perfect contradictory statement. You have faith that Shri Narendra Modi is demonic person. I simply say if you can justify Gandhi (Not Congress… Gandhi, I feel you are Gandhian) who had a role in mass killing or Genocide of Indians then you are looking for selective perfection. If you can justify the act of muslims (given the fact that muslims who do not report existence of violent or traitors and cry crocodile tears via mullahs) going out and burning innocent people and expect that such persons should be protected then you are looking for selective perfection. Number crunching is altogether a different matter. I find this type of reasoning very close to the Christian reasoning for wiping out natives.

Explaining everything by “common sense” also does not work.

Let’s say ok for the time being and proceed… But then since when history became science? Big Bang Theory or Chimps to Humans theory or Aryan Invasion theory or that Islamic terrorists like Aurangzeb were secular theory or Gandhi theory? Can you tell me one historical event using the might of science?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit:
I am not Gandhian but admire him. I am glad not to fall under any label. I also admire Martin Luther King and Abdul Gaffar Khan. I admire the work of Naram and Garam Dal freedom fighters both—Shaheed Bhagat Singh and Co, Azad and especially Shaheed Udham Singh….
Tell me this:
Do you love MODI and call him a true leader who leads from the front because of:
1. his work as CM for economic growth of Gujrat?
or
2. his condoning and directing the killings of Muslims (yes i know after Hindu killings)?

If #1 is true. why not admire Manomohan Singh who during Narsimha Rao PMship took the country out of Nehruvian socialist economy —perhaps you dismiss that a trivial no brainer job and the obvious choice.
If #2 is true., do you approve of killings of Sikhs in 1984 by Congress/Tytler gang (I assume you do not, but then similar to Gujrat, Sikhs masses should have gone and kill Hindus—when “emotions running high” why would Sikhs care about the long history of peaceful common roots with Hindus since the Hindus did not think that way. I see a problem with the Hindus here.
@comments about missionaries—-as if I am defending them; it is getting to the waste of time point; do one thing-pull out my posts and go through them to get my profile including my stand on missionaries).
I said nothing contradictory. Logic is like play dough; you can play all you want. You use Gandhi as a barometer and say if Gandhi is GOD why not MODI. Use logic in positive way, which will be that missionaries who force conversions, Muslims who killed Hindus or anyone, the Christians who killed natives/aborig/pagans, and Gandhi for your reasons, Muslims and Hindus/Modi in Gujrat belong to the same group—terrorists/fundamentalists/killers . You are using the logic negatively and base Modi’s greatness upon the undeserving Gandhi who condoned genocide (acc to you).
@ the unwritten part of what you failed to pick is that everyone says “we condemn violence but………” Religions are THE reasons for the violence and mass killings.
I know history. and who did what. the missionaries and aurangzeb and all that…
Your link did not work but I agree aurangzeb is not secular and it MUST be corrected. There have been other such examples—go google teg bahadur, bhagat singh. Politicians are screwed up.

@Common sense: It is perception of the facts, which varies from person to person, and yes sure there is no one stopping anyone to proclaim to be the most prudent judge. But the perception of the facts–or common sense–gives rise to differing opinions; rest science/bing bang stuff is off track mental gymnastics and I am not getting into that.

@ I find this type of reasoning very close to the Christian reasoning for wiping out natives.
–You are WRONG. But then again, it is your perception. Like I can call people with your views as Hindu fundamentalists who 1) condone the action of state machinery to respond an attack (by some Muslims) and that too 2) with a faulty assumption that those killed in the counter attack are “muslims who do not report existence of violent or traitors”.

It is time to settle down by saying that we have different opinions and different ways of thinking and move on.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

I admire Modi because he is committed to development of Gujrat and life for any Sanatan Dharm follower will always be more secure in Gujrat than anywhere else in country. I do not create gods out of persons so that I find it difficult to condone their cowardly acts. I can admire Gandhi and I can kick him too. I kick RSS hard too because they are idiots and their leadership lacks common sense http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/05/r ss-debate/

Manmohan Singh was/ is not a leader. Shri Narsimha Rao was the leader eventhough he got the leadership in circumstance forced by time and not his efforts. But he didn’t need third party clearances and support to run the government or to tackle problems of the country as a leader.

We have in entirety different views on Sikhs / Sanatan Dharm / secularism. For example I do not consider any one who believes in a religion called as secularism as Sanatan Dharmi. Today if the entire congress and the likes are wiped out, I would be happy. Seculars are more sick than religions. They live to create riots/ genocide while say the opposite. These persons have the tendency to disappear during riots/ genocide and reappear when peace is established.

Logic is like play dough.

Even Amartya Sen comes up with logics that point to his belief that he is better than Sri Krishna. He says something to effect that if he had been Arjuna he would have had a better debate http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx  ?261171 with Sri Krishna.

Use logic in positive way, … Politicians are screwed up
Religion is beyond logic. If any one could have reasoned with religion, violence would never had happened. The link was supposed to link one to the link http://www.aurangzeb.info/

Common sense … I am not getting into that

As you wish.

I can call people with your views as… “muslims who do not report existence of violent or traitors”.

I only said that it was apt reply of society. I justify 1857 on the same lines. Britishers also did only logical thing post 1857. They kicked out East India Company, reduced dependency on Muslims and Brahmins in army; reigned in missionaries and I have the guts to say they were best for governance when Gandhi stood up and demanded freedom without any responsibility and without knowing for whom. Such events will take place even if you have all the power and fail to check religious worms. I also have the guts to say that India will be kicked hard around in entire world till secular mentality people make the political class.

It is time to settle down … move on.

As you wish.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit,
@Manmohan Singh was/ is not a leader.
-That is irrelevent answer and I am not claiming he is a leader. I admire Singh’s work as FM his work on economy in 1991–along with Montek Singh Ahluwalia. I admire PV narsimha rao who picked him for knowing who can do the job—but the deed was done by Singh. Singh need not be a leader to do the job he did. That was an academician’s job with experience in government. If it was so easy then why PM Rao caleld Singh?—what was wrong with the previous FM. Those economic policies are the foundations over which today’s economy is based–good or bad.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rohit,
Few parting comments:
@ I do not create gods out of persons so that I find it difficult to condone their cowardly acts. I can admire Gandhi and I can kick him too.
—– My job is much simpler since I do not into believe in GOD stuff to begin with, but like the general message of Hindu scriptures and HInduism. I am willing to listen to someone who finds fault with Lords Ram & Sham (with reason, not just BS). I understand your stand in general and for Gandhi in specific, but do you criticize Modi for anything YET? I have heard all the good things thus far. He has done good work in Gujrat–economy/development projects.

Thanks for the links. It was nice talking to you on the issue.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev:

1) If it was so easy then why PM Rao called Singh.

I think Shri PV Narsimha Rao would have called in various scholars on subject matter where he didn’t have much knowledge but had the wisdom and judgment to pick the best man. I am glad that he picked Shri Manmohan Singh. His era saw death of Pakistani sponsored terrorism in Punjab. It doesn’t mean that he went out and fought the wars but had the guts to give job to the right people. His era also saw destruction of Babri structure, a good omen. Now you may continue and take debate ahead that Sonia has a better vision than Shri PV Narsimha Rao and she made Manmohan Singh the primie minister because the biggest problem in country is economics even though economics is only a part of overall governance.

At present we have problem of Islamic Terrorism, Christian Missionary, Kashmir faith based terrorists facing hostile neighbours, Defence forces with shortage of officers and army and also drought + economic problem. You tell me, in these areas, where we will be after the reign of Shri Manmohan Singh is over.

2) Now your sickular love of Hinduism and debates on Sri Ram or Sham (you could have used a title, but it reflects secularism)

Sanatan Dharm teaches you to take the advise of learned one or create your own path to unite with the supreme but not debate. It places common sense or vivek above all the factors of a body that need no proof in life and therefore, it doesn’t teach that one should impose his/ her own views on other and that a person not adhering to your set of beliefs has no right of existence. This basic philosophy allowed faith based practices to emerge in India which can be called as set of people who believe in Shri Krishna/ Shri Ram/ Goddess Durga/ Goddess Kali/ Lord Shiva etc. The basics saw emergence of beliefs like Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shirdi Sai Baba, Osho, Satya Sai Baba or Sri Sri Ravi Shankar etc. All these faith based groups exist in harmony with each other because none of the thought process that emerged asked or commanded that this is the way of life and all others are false and that the person not following a particular set of belief has no right of existence. Wars/ battles have been part of history in Sanatan Dharm but none span to the extent that entire population got wiped out. For example Kalinga War didn’t reach beyond the armies fighting battle against each other. Raja Bhoj or Guru Teg Bahadur or Chhatrapati Shivaji didn’t advocate genocide. Even Ramayana or Mahabharata do not advocate removal of persons beyond those who matter in fight or war whether the advocator is Shri Ram or Ravana or Shri Krishna or Duryodhan.

When you contrast this with the basics of Christianity or Islam or secularism, everything is opposite whatever likes of Dr Zakir Naiks or Stevens or you yourself or Gandhi may say. My common sense tells me that practicing such faith how so ever laced with what so ever is not right. So when it comes to taking a stand between Christianity/ Islam vs Sanatan Dharm or any other belief which doesn’t deny right of existence or which doesn’t impose itself beyond tolerance level, I will use my common sense and not indulge in number crunching to determine how many are criminals and how many are not and on which side. Not all Bhartiyas are right but when it comes to choosing side between faiths that emanated from this land and imported/ forced faiths that deny right of existence, I will stand with faith of natives even if 100% of them are criminals because my common sense tells me it is better to stand with people who respect your basic right of having an unique belief in supreme and leave you in peace till you approach for words of wisdom/ philosophical guidance. That is why a Bison Muria or a Gond or a Bhil can life his life as per his wishes till missionary or similar torch bearer locates him. A Sikh or a Jain or a Buddhist won’t reach out to locate him

The issue that you raised Sikhism + MMS vs Hinduism is more due to your blind faith in religion called as secularism and denial of right to Sanatan Dharmi to exist in peace, dignity and honour. It primarily is aimed towards proving me wrong but still… Secularism is a Christian concept. Sanatan Dharm says the world has flaws and one has to use common sense to embrace everyone. Secularism makes you believe in perfection and then take a side of religion. Throughout your arguments, in this post, you will find that when it comes to taking sides, you won’t be able to decide where to stand, just like Gandhi who could not decide where to stand although he called himself as Sanatan Dharmi. So, ultimately seculars end up preaching Sanatan Dharmi that it is his job to loose his brother/ sisters from hands of a community which has a factory to produce exploding human bombs or a factory to run the create violent situation on might of money, lies and later on guns because our secular brother need to grow rich.

No one in India except those whose bread and butter was/ is linked to GANERU clan or secularism indulged in riots, primarily confined to Delhi, strong hold of Congress. You find it convenient to project Congressis = HINDUS aka VHP or RSS or BJP or Shri Narendra Modi any other similar out fit didn’t indulge in riots but not blame the congressi having numerous MMSs in it’s fld. You also find it convenient to make Congress HINDUS aka VHP/ RSS/ BJP when Sikhs are not in picture. Secularism and Gandhism/ Congressism know only to harm those who won’t retaliate like the bigots who pride themselves as Brahmins or Kshatriyas due to a surname and hide under sarees of their female clans when faced with real test of duty be it against Islam/ Christians or against VHP/ Bajrang Dal. Secularists never give up life to protect faith/ beliefs/ rights of natives. They give up life to protect teachings of west especially from Mecca and Rome.

Secularism/ Gandhism didn’t eliminate Islamic Terrorism in India. In fact, it has bettered prospects for Christians and Islam in India. SIMI or IM or Mizo Liberation Front and persons like Stevens, similar outfits exist in India not due to faith of natives or Shri Narendra Modi but due to imported faiths and the new faith secularism. Pakistan sponsored jehadis, persons like Steven/ Dr Zakir Naik/ Mhd. Ali Jinnah/ Graham Staines/ Aurangzeb don’t indulge in what they are accustomed to due to faith of natives. Their source of confidence is in bigotry practiced by persons who pride calling themselves Brahmins and Kshatriyas & secularism created by Christians, practiced by Congressis and persons like you. This entire machinery of Pope didn’t achieve that much under British rule as it will achieve under aegis of Secularism now led by Honorable Man Mohan Singh.

Common sense will also tell you that Britishers raised one of the best army of world not because of secularism or blessings from the likes of Stevens but because of elimination of missionaries, bigots who call themselves Brahmins, Kshatriyas & Muslims. Common sense will also tell you why Gurkhas are still part of British Army and not Jehadis or secularists. Common sense will also tell you that secularism led to loss of 1962 war and not lack of valor and that when role of secularism got limited post 1962 war, results were good and that if secularism was eliminated post 1962, outcome in 1965, 1972, 1990, have been much better.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit:
I see the discussion is on. Alright. It started with Modi and now we are into Hinduism etc. It is a common sense that Modi is not some barometer of Hinduism nor is Modism pre-requisite to Hinduism. It is a common sense that disagreeing with views like yours is not equal to approving of missionaries work and proselytism. This is your twisted interpretation that seculars cannot be Hindus. Indian society due to its pluralistic nature needs secularism and you can deny discuss but you got to face it.

Read to get an idea of my general opinion on the missionaries in India:
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009  /04/28/an-indian-bible-or-a-bible-for-i ndia/
Indian Constitution is secular, so stick to it and expect the leaders, who took oath, to do so. I wish you were as proud an Indian as proud a Santan Dharrmi you portray to be. You yourself once said you “loath India” for its negatives…. You are more about religion that the country.

With your views, you stand in the same group as Islamic fundamentalists. They think they are the guardians of Islam with their twisted interpretation of the religion—mainly Jihad. Equally dangerous to the society are people with your views who think themselves to be the modern day Arjunas (who explain Modi’s actions), who think it is perfectly alright for a Hindu CM to wipe out part of the Muslim community without distinguishing between the terrorists or the innocents with your sweeping assumption that if one Muslim gives shelter, the whole community is terrorist—–this is your sick counterpart of Jihad. You do not ask question what is the alternative but you approve of approaches that worsen the problem. You use your common sense as do the Jihadis. It is not about number crunching, it about common sense and bravery that you falsely assume you have plenty and others disagreeing with you don’t.

Now:
@Now you may continue and take debate ahead that Sonia has a better vision than Shri PV Narsimha Rao and she made Manmohan Singh the primie minister”
—I am not discussing Sonia vs Rao—Rao is better than Sonia in any case. It was about giving credit to Manmohan Singh as FM, which now you finally agree with me although it took some time. I do not know why hesitation—may be because u think he is a Congressi “sickular” and Congressi Shri PV Narsimha Rao, because he facilitated Babri masjid demolition, is not. I do not admire anyone for Babri.

@His era also saw destruction of Babri structure, a good omen.
– Good omen—how? One down and how many more to go? Is it some bravery? The wars lost by your ancestors cannot be won by you. Innings is over and is written in the history. Babri issue was only for electoral value or for some people with inferiority complex who think Hinduism is oppressed and can be undone by that event. To put it politely, that was plain silly.

@ At present we have problem of Islamic Terrorism, Christian Missionary, Kashmir faith based terrorists facing hostile neighbours, Defence forces with shortage of officers and army and also drought + economic problem. You tell me, in these areas, where we will be after the reign of Shri Manmohan Singh is over.
— I am not a Congressi. So I have same question. What I know is that the way people voted Congress into power shows confidence in Congress and/or lack of confidence in BJP et al. The major challenge is INTERNAL SECURITY—huge. Economy is doing/will do better than it would have done under BJP. Religion/caste- based vote bank politics by the parties have to go if India has to move ahead. Cannot forecaste on MMS reign. He is an intelligent and strong leader.

2) Now your sickular love of Hinduism and debates on Sri Ram or Sham (you could have used a title, but it reflects secularism).
Ha! “Sickular” is your problem, not mine. To me Hinduism is a philosophy—a book, that’s it–and I ask questions, not blindly follow. I like to debate. I like OSHO-type debate on anything—be that Hindusim or anyone else. My “Vivek” tells me that things can get irrelevant with time.

@ So when it comes to taking a stand between Christianity/ Islam vs Sanatan Dharm or any other belief which doesn’t deny right of existence or which doesn’t impose itself beyond tolerance level, I will use my common sense and not indulge in number crunching to determine how many are criminals and how many are not and on which side.
—- What do you mean by taking stand? I will rephrase your question “which religion do you prefer?’ My ansr is Sanatan Dharam for its tolerance and inclusiveness. That does not mean I support Sanatan Dharamis like you or Jihadis or missionaries.

@Secularism and Gandhism/ Congressism know only to harm those who won’t retaliate like the bigots who pride themselves as Brahmins or Kshatriyas due to a surname and hide under sarees of their female clans when faced with real test of duty be it against Islam/ Christians or against VHP/ Bajrang Dal.
–If you want to discuss caste stuff, I am the wrong person. All these Hindu outfits think they are brave but reside in the safety of their Gali Mohalla. They are good for Khaki Nikkar Marshal Arts going on since decades. Islamic terrorist with few months of training come to Mumbai and kill Indians. If you and your braves are brave enough and have the balls, then why not show bravery by crossing the border and kill Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Saeed or at least kill Azhar whom BJP released from jail or any tiny terrorist. Peeing and drawing boundaries is no mark of bravery. I tell you one name who took revenge—Shaheed Udham Singh who went to England and waited for 2 decades for killing Gen ODwyer who ordered Jailianwalah bagh massacre. To your dismay, Shaheed Udham Singh was known as Ram Mohammed Singh Azad (to you he is a “sickular”). There were many such secular freedom fighters who did not attach the religion to their name—used names with tags of multi-religion or the country. Your non-sickular Shiv sena is good enough for opposing Valentine day only or against the North Indians (does it not explain why Mughal rule lasted so long) and now the sentinel of Hindu culture—the Ram Sena—for throwing out girls from a bar. Is there someone to tell them to stop this circus.
Here is Shaheed Udham Singh’s quote at the trial for killing Michael O’Dwyer.
“I did it because I had a grudge against him. He deserved it. He was the real culprit. He wanted to crush the spirit of my people, so I have crushed him. For full 21 years, I have been trying to wreak vengeance. I am happy that I have done the job. I am not scared of death. I am dying for my country. I have seen my people starving in India under the British rule. I have protested against this, it was my duty. What a greater honour could be bestowed on me than death for the sake of my motherland?” the key words are motherland, real culprits.

@Pakistan sponsored jehadis, persons like Steven/ Dr Zakir Naik/ Mhd. Ali Jinnah/ Graham Staines/ Aurangzeb don’t indulge in what they are accustomed to due to faith of natives. Their source of confidence is in bigotry practiced by persons who pride calling themselves Brahmins and Kshatriyas & secularism created by Christians, practiced by Congressis and persons like you.
– Lose your habit of feeding words into someone’s mouth. I do not get into this BS of casts if my inter-caste marriage is any proof. Rest all is your thinking. Perhaps breaking a mosque and saying ‘GO MODI!” will fix that.

@The issue that you raised Sikhism + MMS vs Hinduism is more due to your blind faith in religion called as secularism and denial of right to Sanatan Dharmi to exist in peace, dignity and honour.
-My belief is in the Indian constitution that happens to be secular, and you and I and especially those with authority to govern the nation are bound to follow it. If they do not, their actions are unconstitutional. I am not the one to deny right to any religion. India is independent—wake up-garv se bollo hindu hain is beyond me. Yes say this slogan and who is stopping. Do not amplify it by breaking babri.

@ No one in India except those whose bread and butter was/ is linked to GANERU clan or secularism indulged in riots, primarily confined to Delhi, strong hold of Congress.”
–You are so sure about Ganeru clan only.! No you cannot be. Also, you need to state it very clearly that in 1984, there were anti-Sikh ATTACKS, NOT RIOTS. I agree on your point about attacks by Congress—mainly in delhi. But it was not confined and spread to other parts of the country—UP, Bihar.

@You find it convenient to project Congressis = HINDUS aka VHP or RSS or BJP or Shri Narendra Modi any other similar out fit didn’t indulge in riots but not blame the congressi having numerous MMSs in it’s fld.
-Fair point. That’s why in the beginning I said Congressi/Tytler gang (mainly hindu…OK half Hindus). For your convenience you can call them Congressi Hindus. I do not think VHP or other allied organizations et al participated, but they did not do a thing to save Sikhs—because it would have become news if it ever happened. The way you will think is Congressi Hindus = secular = not hindus. It is not JUST about Hindus, the point was about action and reaction (you can replace by A and B instead of Hindus and Sikhs). After 1984 anti-Sikh attacks, who will be the targets of reactionary attacks by Sikhs if they chose to do: Non-Sikh Congressis = Hindus and Muslims inside Punjab, where Sikhs are in majority. It is fair assumption that Sikh Congressi will not be the target of the reactionary attacks by Sikhs in Punjab. In Punjab since Muslims are a small fraction, the biggest target is the Hindu community, hence my argument. Yes now you can say how will Sikhs know which Hindu is a Congressi and which not? Just the way VHP/Bajrang Dal knew who is a terrorist and who is innocent in Gujrat. Also because if the congressi Hindus did not see if the Sikh is a congressi or not, why would Sikhs care? In Delhi, it was anti-Sikh attack irrespective of their party affiliation. But to put it correctly only some Hindus were the culprits and many were the saviors.

@ Their source of confidence is in bigotry practiced by persons who pride calling themselves Brahmins and Kshatriyas & secularism created by Christians, practiced by Congressis and persons like you.
— Brahmins and Kshatriyas—agreed—it was divide and rule in general. But this applies to you perfectly as well. You hate seculars so much that you have stated you will not care if whole Secular Congress is wiped out and I see History repeating itself though people like you, who may align with the enemy to kill you owns.
@Common sense will also tell you that secularism led to loss of 1962 war, outcome in 1965, 1972, 1990: All except 1962 are your speculations and blaming it on secularism is your own analysis. Secularism is no excuse for national security. It is the problem of the ruler. Then what happened in Kargil under BJP—Pakis sitting at the posts and no info about that and what about the release of major terrorist Azhar released by BJP under Advani Home minister who uses pseudo-secular so much.

@ Common sense will also tell you that Britishers raised one of the best army of world not because of secularism or blessings from the likes of Stevens but because of elimination of missionaries, bigots who call themselves Brahmins, Kshatriyas & Muslims. Common sense will also tell you why Gurkhas are still part of British Army and not Jehadis or secularists.
—Well all you mentioned above is correlation. Britishers are good administrators and they ruled India used Indians of all sorts including your ancestors for fighting the wars. Correlation is not a reason. But let me give you a good example of secular rule in modern army of India. Maharaja Ranjit Singh—A Sikh who was not that religious but had Hindu, Muslims and Sikhs in his every part of the govt and military. He even had Europeans—French from napoleans army, Italians, Hungarians, even Britishers, and some more Europeans generals. He made governors and generals from all communities and he created the most modern Army that even the British did not step in as long as he ruled for 50yrs. Secularism is no hindrance in anything and is the way to go, it is about the leaders and the major problem today is religion/caste vote bank politics and that applies to all parties.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

The only difference of opinion we have is on secularism, which is a Christian concept aimed to separate Church and it’s interference in governance.

I would leave inter case marriages because they are not a certificate to prove anything but can assure you that if you view it as achievement then won’t bog down.

You may do a bit of googling and ask Khushwant Singh to the role of Congress and role of RSS during massacre of Sikhs by Congress. You may also learn about founders of VHP, Master Tara Singh.

I still loath the quality of life in India and in general Indian mentality shaped by the human resource development policies of nation. If anyone has problems with that, let it be. I will take on the same else where in suitable post if provided.

Having said all that, I would like to close with statement, don’t harp on secularism, be realistic about what is good governance, what is secularism, what is religion. Don’t compete with Congress on secularism. It led to partition and genocide in 1947 and has already started to raise another round led by Kashmir and the muslim parties that foght elections in 2009 and change in demography throughout India.

There are lots and lots of example. A reading about Raja Bhojadeva may do good… He was not a secular person and nor were Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Guru Teg Bahadur or Guru Gobind Singh or Swami Dayanand or Swami Vivekananda or Narendra Modi or Lance Nayak Abdul Hamid… It is you who make them seculars/ non seculars.

The difference of opinion we have is due to the fact that you are unable to accept the basic difference between faith of natives and imported faiths. Imported faiths have the basic that people not belonging to their faith have no right of existence. In a highly educated and developed society/ nation like Singapore (area 270 sq km) Christians indulged in conversions of persons lying on deathbed in a hospital where Christians had dominance and pasting missionary pamphlets on doors of Hindu Temples and Muslims extorting for manly actions of Mecca. Neither Ramayana nor Mahabharata nor any other religious book from India talk about genocide/ denial of existence to person who has faith in god different that what is advocated by these books. Nor did Sri Ram or Sri Krishna or Raja Bhojadeva or Samrat Ashok or Chandragupt or Narendra Modi or Guru Teg Bahadur or RSS advocate genocide. Secular parties like Congress openly preach peace indulge in activities which breed germs of genocide.

This does not meant that individuals are at fault but there are time when section of society reacts back because the other section of society has faults. And these faults do not exist due to secularism or non secularism, it exists due to quality of governance. And the incidents do not rise because of secularism or non secularism, it is because of bad governance. Now do you blame Narendra Modi on mis governance and existence of such anti national elements within society and hold the belief that VHP / RSS are anti national?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit:

That means you want India to be a Hindu country.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Nope… Never said so. It is your interpretation. No one in India except Christians, Muslims & seculars indulge in riots and genocide. This is a statement. One interpretation would be to apply strictures like Singapore has Prevention of Religious Harmony Act to control these religions. Second would be to link it with my name and say that this is Hindu statement. Secularism was term coined to beat negativity of word atheism and it limits role of Church. I do not know your definition of this religion secularism. But I do not give a damn to secularism. I am a firm believer in Raj Dharm or good governance and so I can say Britishers were better for governance in 1947 when two skeletons feasted on blood and flesh of Sanatan Dharmis and it’s off shoots to rule.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

Thanks, for reminding me about Udham Singh. It is inspirational @ http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/per sonalities/udhams.html

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Good news for Pope from India.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090928/js p/frontpage/story_11550218.jsp

That’s a feat of achievement for Sickulars.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit:

Happy Gandhi Jayanti
http://www.google.com/

To me, Secularism is the concept that the actions of government or any executive bodies should not take religious beliefs into consideration. I want no political party based on religion and the emphasis should be on the development.

What is Raj Dharam exactly? It is just a hindi translation of “Rule of Law”. But what the rule of law is and how well it is practiced is what matters.
From the articles you posted: “We had written to Sonia Gandhi early this month asking for deserving representation for Christians in the party’s candidate list, and we are extremely happy,”

This is a perfect example of not adhering to the constitution. An open declaration of “representation for Christians” is not following the constitution. Same goes for others.

This religion-based vote bank politics is polarizing and corrupting India and increasing religious fundamentalism. This must go. Only the elections will be decided on the real issues.

All this ticket business should be more carefully monitored and should be under a common body. Who gets to play is as important as who wins.

Of all “isms” Maoism is the biggest danger to India and needs to be taken care of—punishment, talks, development all should be used. This is real serious bigger than religion even.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Dear Rajeev,

Your ideal view of secularism is impossible without strictures in place to identify, profile and reign in religious torch bearers (all Missionaries, mullas, pundits, brahmins etc) so that they do not speak and act deriving inspiration from non existent/ unprovable things in arena outside Church/ Mosque/ Temple but from written law that tells exactly how to act and speak. Plus, religious torch bearers should act and preach on lines of what they submit to government in writing before they do so in Church/ Temple/ Mosques. Government should stick to job of guarantying availability of all necessities of life to live a peaceful prosperous life and leave the torch bearers only for satisfying unprovable things if needed and that also under strict control other wise the non existent/ unprovable thing makes these religious torch bearers act in illegal ways and it is impossible to punish non existent/ unprovable thing making them break the rule. Their right to propagate profs/ belief in existence of unprovable/ non existent should be restricted to those person who are able to respect finer nuances of non existent proofs around existence of non existent/ unprovable things. This would be difficult to implement in India but a strong will power will make resistance go away because common man needs bread and butter and good governance which is committed to improving his life style than dependency on unprovable/ non existent things.

But I guess we might be moving to one more 1947, slowly as the governance by various political parties keeps itself heavily involved in blind faith based politics and very few individuals interested in dispensing good governance making it out as leader of the nation.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

[...] Pakistan, the country that spearheaded this resolution? According to the World Council of Churches, Pakistani Christians live in fear. So, here’s a savage state with all its power, and Islam as its state religion, preaching to [...]