“No religion” segment of U.S. population profiled

September 23, 2009

At the “Values Voter Summit” of conservative Christian activists I attended last week in Washington, more than one participant lamented the “secularization” of America.

That will come as a surprise perhaps to more than one foreign reader of this blog, given America’s famously high rates of religiosity which set it apart from much of the rest of the developed world. And the evangelical tradition which much of the U.S. “religious right” comes from has been fast growing in recent decades.

spire1But Americans who claim no religion are fast growing and Trinity College in Hartford offers a detailed portrait of this group in a new report released this week called “American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population.”

The 1990s was the decade of the “secular boom.” Regarding the percentage of adult Americans who claim no religious affiliation, the researchers found that it had grown from 8.2 percent in 1990 to 14.2 percent in 2001 and to 15 percent in 2008. The growth of the Nones is a national phenomenon. They are the only group that increased in every state and region of the country during the past 18 years,” the report says.

“Who exactly are the Nones? “None” is not a movement, but a label for a diverse group of people who do not identify with any of the myriad of religious options in the American religious marketplace – the irreligious, the unreligious, the anti-religious, and the anti-clerical. Some believe in God; some do not. Some may participate occasionally in religious rituals; others never will. Nones are easily misunderstood. On the one hand, only a small minority are atheists. On the other hand, it is also not correct to describe them as “unchurched” or “unaffiliated” on the assumption that they are mainly theists and religious searchers who are temporarily between congregations. Yet another incorrect assumption is that large proportions of Nones are anti-rationalist proponents of New Age and supernatural ideas,” it says.

The report will no doubt be held up by conservative Christians — a key base for the Republican Party — as further evidence of the country’s cultural slide since the permissive 1960s and the end of school prayer. The neo-atheist movement on the other hand will probably say it attests to their growing popularity (even if outright atheists are only a minority of Nones).

The report is drawn from the massive American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), which questioned 54,461 adults in either English or Spanish between February and November 2008. Its main findings were released in March.

Here are some highlights of this report:

* The “None” numbers — 34 million American adults — far exceed the combined total of all the non-Christian religious groups in the United States.

* Whereas Nones are presently 15 percent of the total adult U.S. population, 22 percent of Americans aged 18-29 years self-identify as Nones.

* Regarding belief in the divine, most Nones are neither atheists nor theists but rather agnostics and deists (59 percent) and perhaps best described as skeptics.

* The most significant difference between the religious and non-religious populations is a gender gap: Whereas 19 percent of American men are Nones only 12 percent of American women are Nones. The gender ratio among Nones is 60 males for every 40 females.

It is also interesting to note the political affiliation of Nones. Some observers of the U.S. political scene would no doubt regard “secular humanists” — many of whom would be classified as Nones — as a key base for the Democratic Party. Certainly many among the conservative Christian crowd I rubbed shoulders with last week would hold that point of view. But perhaps unsurprisingly the report says when it comes to partisan politics they tend to have an independent cast of mind: “Politically, 21 percent of the nation’s independents are Nones, as are 16 percent of Democrats and eight percent of Republicans. In 1990, 12 percent of independents were Nones, as were 6 percent of Democrats and 6 percent of Republicans.”

(PHOTO: The spire of Memorial Church rises above Harvard Yard at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts September 21, 2009. REUTERS/Brian Snyder (UNITED STATES)

160 comments

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Thomas Jefferson was a secular humanist and a Nones

Posted by thebob.bob | Report as abusive

[...] Reuters FaithWorld: “But Americans who claim no religion are fast growing and Trinity College in Hartford offers a detailed portrait of this group in a new report released this week called ‘American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population.’” [...]

Another factor in the rise of Nones could be their discomfort in the available churches. For example, their used to be a lot of what I would call ‘quietly religious’ believers in the US – no denomination, but concerned about the poor, vaguely liberal etc. I think that those believers are massively turned off by evangelical fervor and talk of the other guys being doomed sinners. If you are not lucky enough to find a community of like minds you eventually retreat into a personal one-on-one relationship with God rather than a church-based one.

Posted by Steve G | Report as abusive

Having grown up in a mormon community, I was, of course, a mormon — not much choice there. The lies and fraud that filled my religion FINALLY overpowered my brain-washed mind and I could finally see the bigotry and suspension of reason just to keep the puzzle of religion together.

Now that I’m out, seeing the same failings in other religions I’m giving atheism a try, and I must say it fits me well.

4 decades in the cult of mormonism. How could I have wasted so much time and tithing on such a multi-level marketing scheme as religion.

Free at last.

Posted by weeder | Report as abusive

As an agnostic who spent several happy years in the near vicinity of the Mem. church spire, I’m thrilled and fascinated that this study has confirmed what my life experience since then has suggested–that there’s not much correlation between education –formal education– and religiosity, but that there are some distinct geographical trends.

Posted by JFS | Report as abusive

We are seeing the greatest falling away from the in the United States history. Hmm! What does this mean?
Maybe we as Americans need to examine ourselves find out. This couldn’t be prophecy, or could it?
Do we even believe prophecy comes true anymore?
We shouldn’t need statistics to see that, all that you have to do to run off is to start preaching Jesus.
Mabe the question here should be; “Has America Lost Her Blessing”?
Dominick From
World School Of Prophecy & News Events

It’s probably a toss-up between organized religion and mosquitoes as to what’s been responsible for the most suffering over the course of human history.

Posted by bfk | Report as abusive

The time has come to get over the fear that we really do not know if there is a ‘god’. It does not make you bad, it does not make you good, it is just about accepting the fact that we don’t know.

Posted by the take | Report as abusive

Well, now I finally know what I am. I am a label known as “Nones”. Because my reason prevails over all religious indoctrinations and persuasions and force-feedings I’ve encountered, I’m a “None”? Perhaps a better (although admittedly less marketable) label would be a “Been there done that No Thanks”. And how, if anyone would be so kind as to enlighten me, could it be that I still have faith in the Divine, in the Penultimate Consequence, in the Supreme Reason? Beats me…perhaps it was the indoctrination, after all.
Happy being me and My Son’s Mom!!!

Posted by Shelley | Report as abusive

Wow-here i thought I was a party of one. Do I believe that Jesus was born and brought one of the greatest religions? Yes. Do I believe that God created the earth? No. I have always wondered if Christianity was the ultimate faith. It is what I was raised in and what I am most familiar with. But when I realized that mankind had existed far longer that Christianity had and that there were older cultures and religions, I started to wonder what right I had to condemn those not of my faith. Come to find out all of the major religions have the same principles as the Ten Commandments. So I will stand proud in my non-conforming beliefs and live by the Golden Rule.

Posted by Barbara A Meiborg | Report as abusive

Why is that somebody wouldn’t know that there is a G-d? Maybe because human is in a lost state. Where Sodom and Gomorrah once stood, there is from a far off, a dis-coloration of the ground from being burnt, you can see it to this day. Then when it rains there, you can see these sulfur rocks glisten all over the ground, that science even says burned at over 9000 degrees, in those five cities that were destroyed, not found anywhere else in the world. You can crush a handful of the walls in your hand because it is ash. If it were just old, then you should be able to crush a handful of Egyptian Pyramid walls.
Where the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea, there is chariot wheels, chariot bodies, horse bones, and all kinds of brass artifacts.
We now have many picture for all of these things, including the Ark in the mountains. Sea shells on top of every mountain in the world, I never new clams to climb.
Ya we know there is a G-d..
We just don’t want to know Him

Dominick from
WSOPNE.org

Hey Dominick how do you know the pyramids wouldn’t crumble in your hand, have you been there? Religous people are willing to believe anything that comforts them. Funny how all miracles and biblical events stopped at the same time as the invention of photography, isn’t it?

Posted by Justin | Report as abusive

Why the desparate struggle to attach a label to people who simply do not care to wear or reveal their personal opinions? Neither does this study account for what should be a significant number of people who rightfully lie when asked a question that is simply nobody else’s business. “Nones” is a pretty self-serving and quite unflattering label. Why not Secularists?

Posted by Alexander the Okay | Report as abusive

My disillusion with organized religion manifested itself on Sept. 11, 2001.

After that horrible day I refused to allow myself to be associated with religion…it just seemed to me that one of the biggest obstacles to world peace is religion itself!

Posted by Tim Nantz | Report as abusive

I have to confess that i’m a none. Part of the agnostic sect. But I have no desire to defend my doubt, since the burden of proof lies with those who assert a claim. What I would like too point out though is that a secular, skeptical perspective is as old as our Republic. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Paine, Franklin and many others of our most venerated citizens were not christians, but rather embraced rational thought as the best, if still limited, tool for seeking truth. Read your history. My upbring in the christian faith taught me to seek the truth, for which I am eternally grateful, and the truth should be told. The arguement that secularization of America is unamerican is simply false, and is a distortion of our history.

Posted by james gibbon | Report as abusive

I think that the number of atheists in this study is skewed to a lower number than actual. The word atheist is viewed as a bad word by many people that are actually atheist! I have spoken to many people who DO NOT believe in god. They do however say something like “how would i know if there was one, and i suppose that there is a possibility that somewhere out there in the large univers there is a being that is superior to us.” I can agree with that, if you are a scientist you can even agree with those statements. People who make those statements usually group themselves as agnostics. Realistically however, if you dont believe in god, like i dont,and many of these “agnostics” dont just man up and call yourself an Atheist. Its time that we are counted and America loses the derogatory term of a religious nation. Stop embarassing up religious right.

Posted by Erick Nielsen | Report as abusive

As an agnostic, I am what you’d call a typical “None”. In my view, what we’re witnessing here is the rise of rationalism. That’s what ties the great majority of “Nones” together. With no evidence (or reason) one way or the other, the rationalist is forced to concede that he/she simply does not know whether God exists, much less what the nature of that God might be. Fundamentally, it is a position of humility. It is an admission of ignorance. In fact, “agnostic” is Latin for “to not know” (more or less.) Agnostics regard both atheism and theism as faith-based belief systems.

I have asked religious people: “Even if I were to choose a religion, how should I choose one from among thousands?” My favorite answer was that I should just believe what most Americans believe, because that’s where I was born and what I was taught. ;-) (I suppose the ultimate Nature of the Universe varies by geographic location, then!!) The most common answer I got was that I should choose whatever religion “resonates” with me the most, or various rephrasings of this. But to choose a religion requires actually believing its tenets. And to believe is to ascribe truth. So how can I call something true simply because of the way it makes me feel? Am I to imagine myself so enlightened that I can intuitively know the true nature of the Universe? Am I to imagine myself important enough that the Universe (or God) would provide me a conduit for divining its nature? And if my neighbor’s intuition leads him to a vastly different Truth, then am I qualified to say which parts of his Truth are right and which are wrong? So, again, humility prevents me from choosing one religion and declaring all contradicting beliefs false. Or from picking and choosing beliefs from various religions to create my own. Or from saying that all human religions are pointers to some underlying universal Truth (i.e. that humans in general know what we’re talking about.)

Now, of course, many people believe that rationalism is overrated. They see faith as a higher virtue than reason. And of course they’re welcome to that. But more and more of us are growing uncomfortable with faith as a guiding principle for writing the laws of the land. I mean, just look at Sharia! And if you think “Christian-based law could never be as bad as Muslim Sharia”, then pick up a history book.

Many of us look at the Middle East and are disgusted that the typical reaction of a victim of religious warfare over there (whether Jew, Muslim, or otherwise) is to become MORE religious!! Talk about a vicious cycle! And we fear a similar dynamic evolving in our home countries, as we watch our own religious populations becoming ever more fanatical — especially in the US. I have actually witnessed a Christian in the US saying “well, the Muslims have one thing right: they know how to raise an army to fight against the enemies of their religion. Why can’t we Christians do that?” Now, of course, this sentiment is uncommon these days — but it was the dominant sentiment not too long ago in our history. So I’m watching Christians radicalizing here in the US, and it’s scary. The movement toward secularism is partly in reaction against that radicalization. People find themselves without a church, not because they changed, but because their church changed. Their church became more fanatical, and it left them behind. This drives some people to liberal churches (which are now very much on the rise); but others get so creeped out or nauseated by the behavior of the fanatics that they abandon the whole idea of faith altogether.

I don’t know that I would say the US is becoming more religious in general (or less); it’s more that the US is becoming more polarized. The fanatics are on the rise, but so are their opposites. You can see this in the growing divide between conservative and liberal churches, which are becoming more conservative and more liberal, respectively. Moderates seem to be the only endangered species here. There is a growing schism in the religious community that threatens to tear it apart (and the Anglican Communion is only the beginning…)

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

Amazingly enough what more proof do we need that there is a God. Just intellingently look around US, and ask the questions,where, who and why? Or even WHAT! On the other hand what Proof Do we have that there is NO GOD. Organized religion or disorganized religion is man made. I wonder though which one of these is Godly or Otherwise?

All anybody needs to know about religion is that the supernatural exists only in the human imagination. Period.

Posted by Johnny | Report as abusive

Amazingly enough what more proof do we need that there is NO God. Just intellingently look around US, and ask the questions,where, who and why? Or even WHAT! On the other hand what proof do we have that there is a GOD. Organized religion or disorganized religion is man made. … You do not need to proof that something does not exist. Burden of proof always lays on those who wants you to beleive that something is true.

Posted by Richard | Report as abusive

I have read most of the posts from the article mentioned and one thing comes to mind. What ever is convienent at the time thats what I will be. I am no different so to speak. I have shook my fist at GOD more than once and then asked for his caring hand the next day. Beleive in what YOU beleive in, what you see is right for you, not what is right for your friends and family, or to be sociable. I pray every day for good bombing weather over our enemies to my GOD. My enemies do just the opposite to there GOD. America was founded by GOD fearing, loving, respectable men and women. America without GOD at its center, removed from all forms of any government will surely fail. If we have no concience in America, no discipline what so ever in our lives, at least we still have GOD to look to for guidance. To be labeled nones is dumd. The catholics already have it.

Posted by LEOWASKING | Report as abusive

Please use the correct term. We are the ‘brights,’ those led by rationality. Belief is not our banner, dDogma has no place in our world view. We oppose fundamentalism in all its forms, regardless of whatever label those blinded by religion select to call themselves.

We are the true heirs of the founding fathers of America. If you don’t believe that, why not look for the term “Christ” in the Declaration or Constitution?

We bear witness to the “religious” hypocrites that claim to follow their self-proclaimed Christ without listening to his words.

Posted by Dave | Report as abusive

It’s an absolute travesty that so much suffering of the innocent has & continues to happen in the name of someone’s imagined god. The faster we lay this myth to rest the faster this planet finds it’s way to mature & rational behavior as a species.

Posted by geo | Report as abusive

I am an anti-theist and a very strong atheist. I find religion to be huge pile of muck this country is stuck in. If you want to believe in something without evidence, or even any critical thought (much like children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy) more power to you and three cheers go for it. If you want to impose your belief upon me and degrade the educational options of our children, violate separation of church and state, etc, then I have to say wait just a minute your out of bounds. I think the threat of religion upon our education (anti evolution, YEC’s (Young Earth Creationists in particular) degrades this countries chances of competing in a global marketplace where knowing the earth is 4.5 billion years old seems to make you seem just a bit more credible than honestly believing that it is less than ten thousand.

Posted by None | Report as abusive

Richard Feynman put it like this — “…there are many things I do not know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask, ‘Why are we here?’. I do not have to have an answer. I do not feel frightened by no knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it is as far as I can tell. It does not frighten me.”

Posted by Salem Spitz | Report as abusive

Biggest load of hogwash, diatribe, garbage, New Age rubbish I’ve ever heard.

Why is the English system and America’s too based on biblical principles then?

Bullshit.

-THE VELVET EVIL OF RELIGION-

I call it “velvet” because religion seems benign and innocuous on the surface,and I call religion “evil” because it discourages independent or even rational
thought, is primarily concerned with self-perpetuation on the backs of the “faithful,” is patently intolerant; and historically a primary source of friction in the
world.

“God” has given man permission to do horrific things to others since the beginning of time. The good doesn’t matter, because one evil negates the memory of many charities.

By that mathematics; no kindness survives in the world this dark day, when 85% of the world is delusional because of a virus called “religion.”

A belief in invisible entities with magical powers is plumb idiotic, Jethro, so wake up!

I am not here to shake your faith; I am here to point out the obvious, that all religious faith is nonsense, and dangerous, and that it will complicate your life
and mine in ways neither of us yet imagine.

The “Rapture” will not rescue either one of us in the future, ever; any more than the rapture of ignorance and wish-fulfillment will elevate us in the present reality.

Like me. you’re doomed to live life in the real world.
It’s actually quite beautiful;
there’s no need to pretend!

Churches are big business– give them meaningful religion; tax the “Hell” out of them!

We can no longer afford the luxury of indulging, respecting, or tolerating religion in any of its forms.

Enough, already!

-BT

As a convert to Mormonism of 40 years, I still vibrate to the idea that what accounts for the wierdness of society is that TRUTHS are in then out of favor with the people.I’m sticking to the Constitution and the 10 Commandments, politically.There is a God!

Posted by BARBARA NEVILLE | Report as abusive

LEOWASKING said: “I pray every day for good bombing weather over our enemies to my GOD.”

Yes, and this is exactly why agnosticism and atheism are on the rise. You’re not the first “Christian” I’ve heard express this opinion, nor the first Muslim or Jew. And we “Nones” are just sitting back shaking our heads in disgust as people massacre each other in the name of their God. Is it any wonder that some of us think the world might be better off without these beliefs?

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

First of all, who says you have to belong to any religion. Religion is a word. you have to figure out what they all have in common. The one thing these 1000 religions share is the word of God..The bible. The bible is not just about God it is from God. The bible in its simplistic form tells you who we are and who our God is. Funny all who claim not to believe in God are the first to say Oh my God! when something goes terribly wrong. Only then do you call his name? So in essence you know that God exists. Read the bible in its entirety and then dispute it if you dare too. Most people who are nones, Atheist or what ever you are have no clue what the bible says. Read it first, and get a little knowledge before you reject God. How can you argue about something you know nothing about? It is better to deny god with knowledge than with ignorance so that when judgment comes at least you know what to expect at the moment of truth.

Posted by Mona | Report as abusive

and lets not leave out all the killings by NONES or ATHIESTS — google on that for a long while

its not about religion or nonreligion .. its about MANKIND who is not at its 100%

Posted by maranatha | Report as abusive

What I see here is a lot of people who had bad experience in church, and because of that, have decided that G-d is Dead or not real.
Judging by what I am reading, makes Him more real than ever.
Again, we are seeing the Greatest Falling Away from the faith ever in history of America and the UK.
But I , Like you blame the church, laying a yolk around your necks. Like the Law that Peter said neither They or Their fathers could keep.
You come see us, not only will we prove there is a G-d with out a shadow of a doubt, you’ll find he loves you too.
Come listen to our “First Believe Audio Series”
It will change your life, I promise!

Dominick Villapiano
WSOPNE.org
World School Of Prophecy & News Events

Fact:

1. Believing strongly something is ‘not there’.. has truly little to do with it’s actual existence.

you tried this with your report card and it didn’t work either, remember?

2. Religion is useless : go help the world’s orphans instead. Then you will truly have a pure religion.

when was the last time that reading a book, going to seminar, following a method ever TRULY change you? Under pressure- you’re about as nasty as you ever were. Anyone denying can find their picture under: ‘Pinnochio’

3. try to realize the fact shared in point 1.

4. The BLOOD of Jesus: Priceless..this Blood’s for YOU
“you’re covered”

Waiting until you’ve ‘checked out’ of this life to investigate this will be too late.
You are free to choose.

Good did not create man ! Man created God ! So, it is man-made-god, just like sandwich or papad.

Religion/god business is a type of ‘mental prostitution’ and the source of all suffering in this world. Psychologically, the very “persecution complex/suffering” logic is used against the common people to further the nefarious goals of the priests and politicians (right-wingers).

thanks
Saifi Khan.

Posted by Saifi Khan | Report as abusive

From the comments posted so far, more like 90% are atheist …unless they just try to proselytize for the atheistic religion. As someone that knows ‘first hand’ how insane an atheistic society is, I hope you get your wish and live yourself in such a society, hopefully not in the USA in my lifetime.

Posted by vasile_sf | Report as abusive

Wow Mona. If you knew anything about nonreligious individuals or freethinkers, you will realize that they are WELL VERSED in the bible. We ALWAYS come prepared in case we come across religious individuals such as yourself. We know our shit. You’re challenging the wrong people. And not only that, if you think the bible is your strong ally, WE DISMISS THE BIBLE IN ITS ENTIRETY. The bible was written by those that believed the world was flat and at a time when modern science wasn’t born yet. Do you know why? Because they didn’t have the technology or sophisticated equipment back then! Seriously people, we live in the 21st century, no wonder other countries think we’re a bunch of religious freaks. Where there’s high religious belief = HIGHER CRIME, HYPOCRISY, AND LOWER IQ

Posted by Jessica | Report as abusive

Agnostics and Deists are generally atheists who don’t want to deal with the social opprobrium the term atheist generates. Agnostics, in particular, are fence-sitters – or pretending to be – on the question of whether God “exists.” He does, but like everything supernatural, He exists only in the human imagination, and that’s all anyone needs to know about religion.

Posted by Johnny | Report as abusive

He who has an ear, let him hear. He who has an eye, let him see. It is so shocking to hear so often about self-proclaimed ‘rationalists’ accepting scientific, historic or other ‘fact’ on the same merit by which Christianity is so solidly grounded, while at the same time completely denying religion altogether as nonsense. One can go to great lengths to ignore the evidence of God and his son Jesus Christ as provided in the Bible and other texts, but let nobody expect to be saved by their profound ignorance.

Posted by Troy | Report as abusive

i am an anti-atheist and i think atheism is a pile of muck this country is in. first off in a way i do not blame atheists for believing what they do. you look around you all day and see hypocrites everywhere, most notably in the people who claim to be religous. but just because there are bad seeds in religion it does not make it untrue.that’s why it’s called faith because your’e believing in something. TO think that man can explain and understand everything in life is pretty arrogant in my opinion. there are things in this life we cannot comprehend. atheism supports a way of thinking, in which we are our own masters and we know everything. that there is nothing mystical or spiritual. tell that to the 70,000 that were present on the miracle of the sun july 1917. Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal’s most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical),[1] reported the following: “Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws – the sun ‘danced’

Posted by Echo | Report as abusive

Actually Mona, most Atheist’s know the bible very well, better in fact than most Christians. What is rampant is the misunderstanding of what the irreligious are. We have a lower incarceration rate and generally a much higher education level.

Have a look at this in detail if you wish.

And the word of God is the word of man, just as God is an invention by man.

Posted by Krister | Report as abusive

Dear Mona – these 1000 religions share the word of god. The bible. To paraphrase a famous agnostic or atheist – on what planet do you normally reside? Last time I checked, of the four largest religions in the world, only the Christians used the bible to get their “direction” from god. Islam, Hinduism, and Buddism do not use the bible. This is such a basic fact that it makes your post sound idiotic.

Now to the point – the real question for you Christians is whether you have read the bible and how you apply hte teachings in the bible to your every day lives. Many atheists or other skeptics may have not read the bible but they don’t need to read the bible in order to know that most so called Christians don’t follow the teachings of the bible and are the biggest hypocrites. If you Christians actually followed Matthew 25: 31-46, the world would be a much better place and perhaps an avowed atheist like myself might have a little more respect for you. You don’t, however, and most Christians haven’t since the time of Jesus, and most Christians never will because so many of you stupid Christians haven’t read the bible.

Finally, I can argue with you all day about the idiocy of Genesis and most of the Old Testament – they are stories, my dear, mostly used to entertain, control, and pacify the vast majority of the uneducated population that existed many centuries ago. The New Testament, with it four different gospels, is a wonderful biography of an exceptional person, Jesus of Nazereth, that is inspiring. Like most people that challenge authority and accepted beliefs, Jesus pays for his “insolence” with his life. Whom am I to say what parts of the story are real or imagined – I wasn’t there, so I choose to apply what I consider a rationale analysis to the story which considers the gospel sources and their motives, the religious politics at the time, the manner in which the masses were controlled at that time, the motives of those that were reponsible for the current version of the bible, and many other factors that would have influenced the making of the bible.

You, evidently, have drunk the koolaide and choose to believe he is the son of god, all powerful and all knowing, who was put on this earth to redeem our sins, and everything in the bible is the word of god. I genuinely feel sorry for you, because you appear to not be able to tell the difference between fact & fiction, biography & storytelling, instruction and manipulation.

What I reject is the ridiculous claim of a supreme being, and yes I dare to dispute that god, the son of god, the mother of god, and the holy ghost are anything more than imaginary “beings”. You have your reasons for your beliefs – but the bible offers no proof, rational or factual, to support your belief, and I would dare to suggest that many of its “tales”, especially in the Old Testament, are so unquestionably impossible that the underlying premise of the bible (The Word of God) appears to be a joke. If the bible is the word of god, then god is a manic, who can’t decide who the promised people are, whether to punish them or uplift them, to let them destroy themselves or be destroyed by others, and finally decides he’ll create a loving, brave and peaceful man to save all the world’s sinners, but he lets that man die a cruel and barbaric death at the hands of his chosen people. Dispute that.

Greg

Posted by Greg | Report as abusive

I don’t even believe that a new article or study needs to be conducted on such a topic. Does it really matter to anyone that there are more and more people not believing or neglecting to affiliate? If it does then maybe it is not the “nones” who should reconsider their thoughts, priorities, judgements, and/or considerations. I am agnostic and I am proud to be. If you believe in something else then go for it. What ever you need, some of us just don’t need anything.

Sorry to disappoint you Mona, but as a former active Evangelical high up in the church I read all of the bible all of the time.

This is what in fact opened my mind to the fact the bible is fallacious in content.

I have since realised actions are what makes a person Good. Not the rambling scripture of stone age herdsmen.

Posted by Damien | Report as abusive

It is not surprising to me that the most hate filled comment in these posts is from a Cristian who prays for “good bombing weather” …

Posted by A Canadian Atheist | Report as abusive

Something to consider is that due to the stigma against the word ‘atheist’ in this country, many people are reluctant to use that word to describe themselves, even if it is true.

I think the proportion of ‘Nones’ that are atheists is larger than most surveys will show.

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

Hi all!

The label ‘nones’ is derogatory, however unfortunately expected. Dark Ages = organized religion generally and historically.

There are no bibles written by any God. Nature is the closest we have to any ‘Word of God’ and we seem yet bent on degrading Her.

Organized religion is not just a problem here on earth but also in earth’s surrounding heavens.

Generally, believing ‘saved’ results in an opposite state than one first desired.

Posted by Yukala | Report as abusive

Feel a burden leave you when you give up believing in God. You are in charge of your destiny – not an imaginary protector.

Posted by Arindra | Report as abusive

Athiest ARE MORONS!!!!!
G-d does not believe in them either!!!!

G-D BLESS ISRAEL!!!!

Posted by Magend | Report as abusive

Mona: Your logic assumes that Christianity is the only alternative to atheism. I’m astonished that you would actually claim that all religions share one thing in common: “the word of God… the Bible.” Do you *really* believe this, or was it a typo? Geez, girl… not all religions follow the Bible. Not all religions have a single god — much less the god described in the Bible. The god described in the Bible is vastly different from the gods in many other holy texts.

As it turns out, I have read the Bible, but I find it curious that you say everyone should read it before rejecting God. As if the Bible is the only holy text out there. Why not the Qur’an? The Bhagavad Gita? There are many holy books with many gods (most of whom would be unrecognizable to you as “God”), and some holy books with no gods at all!

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

P.S. – to SEE what MORONS Athiest ARE – one only need read the words of the Narcissistic Athiest god king himself – Dawky boy!!!
For those “Athiest” amoung us whom can comprehend his infinite non-wisdom —- Dawkins is a comedian of the third kind!!!

http://www.anointed-one.net/begin.html

Athiesm and Evolution are outdated non-fantasies of the Woodstock crowd!!! Hashish and Acid smokes the brain folks — put the PIPE down and join us here at “reality-speaks-to-G-d.com”
Get for real small minds!!! And read Romans 1 while your at it!!!

Romans 1
18The WRATH of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

G-d Bless ISRAEL!!!

Posted by Magend | Report as abusive

I am so sick and tired of jews, muslims and christians, that if there is anything I will ever consider, it is going pagan.

Oh wait too bad whatever pagan beliefs I may have had in my ancestral past for possibly many thousands of years was wiped out by bible thumping assholes.

Guess I will just have to settle for not falling for any of the new crap religions that came along and just try and be a decent person to all fellow humans.

Sounds more challenging then having some demagogue on a pulpit telling me what to think…

Posted by chris | Report as abusive

I sympathise with the ‘nones’ who have concluded that there is no evidence that God exists when considering the state of affairs in the World today.
I sympathise because organised ”religion”offers no solutions to their dilemma. God on the other hand DOES! How many of the posters here have actually read what The Bible has to say? The Prohetic Word indicates specific and arresting answers to the questions posed.
Archaelogical evidence that supports the authenticity of The Bible is abounding today ..check the internet !
God is not responsible for the state of affairs in today’s World – Mankind is ! The further we have removed ourselves from God ..the worse the consequences we have reaped! Things are looking bleak..but God offers a solution! A truly edified conclusion can only be reached when all the information available has been considered and analysed. The Bible has a great deal to offer in this repect and is bang up to date!
It aligns with the current world situation in extraordinarily specific detail! It is of paramount importance to reach a conclusion about whether God exists from an edified position rather than an uninformed one that views only the symptoms of decay affecting our present day Society and the wider World without knowing what has caused them from God’s point of view and without being aware that God alone has the solution !

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

None of these findings should be a surprise to anyone. However, the stats in the survey are almost certainly understated since there is still very much a stigma attached to self-identification as being non-religious. There are particularly few folks who are willing to admit they are atheists. The Religious folks are overstated since many people will answer with whatever sect they happened to be raised in, regardless of their current beliefs or disbelief.

Previous poster Mona is typical of the many people who fervently self-identify as religious…they have been brainwashed by their parents/clergy/community to be unthinking zealots who bash everyone outside their own religion (not even acknowledging the many other sacred texts). Very few so-called Christians (of any sect) have actually read the Bible— they’ve read a few passages and heard some in church, but haven’t actually read it and studied it cover-to-cover including the Old Testament (much less the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) I HAVE read them all abd many other studies done by learned Biblical scholars. Having read them and seeing all the political redactions, gross misinterpretations & mistranslations and seeing the wantons continuous murders of “believers” at the hands of other “believers” is precisely why I have rejected the notion of a God! I think everyone SHOULD read the Bible! If more people actually READ on their own instead of having it spoon-fed to them in little soundbites there would be far more atheists!

Posted by Ken Lim | Report as abusive

I sympathise with the ‘nones’ who find no answers to their dilemema in organised ‘religion’ and have therefore concluded that God does not exist. Organised ‘religion’ has no remedy for the state of affairs in our present World but God DOES ! Things are looking bleak but God is not responsible for that- Mankind is! The further we have removed ourselves from God the worse the consequences we have reaped!
The Prophetic Word of the Bible accurately indicates in extraordinarily specific detail its alignment with what has transpired throughout history right down to our present day. It is bang up to date!
Archaeological evidence which confirms the authenticity of the Bile is abounding today ! How many people have actually read the Bible? It is of paramount importance when reaching a conclusion about a matter of such magnitude to consider all the information available.
Otherwise a conclusion is based on a consideration of the symptoms only without realising what has caused them and whether there is an effective remedy.
The Bible responds to all three aspects and is the only source of complete information that can lead to a reliable conclusion- which is that GOD exists and that
He knows the sickness which affects the World today, is aware of its causes and offers the only remedy!

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

A serious study of the Bible as opposed to the scanty knowledge of the few Bible Stories you once knew will inform you that it is the ONLY authentic religious Book that makes complete sense ! Yes there are a multitude of others but the Bible has something to say about that too !Bet ya don’t know what though! Wise up Folks! Read the Words of the Living GOD ! Beware of allowing the denials of those who claim to have read them to influence you.
Anyone who gives serious time and attention to an in depth study of The Bible cannot escape its awesome truth. Check out the Prophecy of Daniel and the amazing correlation of The Revelation . The Apocalypse is on the horizon..are you gonna be ready ? You wont make it if you don’t know what is coming !Go and take a look for yourself . Your future security depends on it. Your choice!

Posted by Angel | Report as abusive

“Athiests are morons!!!”
Mirror says hi. Learn to spell, ladies and gentlemen.

Posted by Disconnect | Report as abusive

Can someone explain to me why people resort to derogatory terms of other peoples views and opinions when their faith is being discussed/questioned? Reading the below echanges is like standing between to supporter/hooligan groups in an English soccer stadium!

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

It amazes me that the that say there is no G-d, wont look either, I said I can prove with out a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is True, and that there is a G-d.
I have on ONLINE Bible School, all you have to do is click on my name, not one email from anyone here, not one.
I am putting, as said above, and Quote “the burden on me” to prove it.
I challenge anyone here to email me and ask me to HOW we can prove it! email me from our our web page
you’ll walk away questioning your non-belief
THIS is what we do………..
Dominick From
WSOPNE.org

Greg.
Man I don’t think you have read anything.
THe Christian. Muslims & Jew all share a common faith in Beginning of the world etc.
Read before you fire..

Posted by Warren | Report as abusive

Atheists are hindered by the self imposed boundaries of their limited knowledge unless they can claim to know every prophetic word of the Bible that relates to the situation in today’s World .
NB:
The cheap comment pertaining to the reversal of two letters in the spelling of the the word ‘atheist’ does not minimise that truth !

Posted by Angela | Report as abusive

Re: Disconnect!!!

You’re right – I did mean “ALL of THEM!!!”

Posted by Magend | Report as abusive

Just consider atheists the Spartans to the ‘no religion’s’ Greece.

Posted by Mr. Green | Report as abusive

Athiest views and puzzles:

1. Holy texts are written by man. Hence, there is no actual proof that the information in those texts is divine. And hence, the bible can not be used as evidence to prove that the bible is true.

2. Religions operate on the assumption that God exists. If your argument proving that God exists is based on that assumption, your logic is circular. Which is a bad thing, by the way.

3. Considering all the many religions that exist, both living and forgotten, the probable chance that your particular chosen religion is correct is about 1%. Assuming, of course, that one of those religions *is* actually correct. (This is the reason why Pascal’s wager is a logical failure)

4. Religion has the onus of proof for proving the existance of God. And by reaching a conclusion based on assumption (ie. a complex system *must* have a designer) you fail to meet this onus. Because your assumption is not based on fact, which kind of ruins your logic.

5. If a divine source for the universe did exist, there is no evidence to show that source is a conscience, or that it can be quantified in any term we could apply to humanity. Or that such a being would have a reason for requiring worship from, or interest in, mankind. Of course this is moot because as you know, there is no actual evidence a deity exists at all.

6. If the universe was created by a creator, who created the creator? If you believe your creator does not require a cause, why do you believe a creator can exist without cause but not the universe itself? There is an additional level of absurdity in the idea of a creatorless creator’s universe, as opposed to a creatorless universe.

7. When you pray to God, what does he say in reply? If he doesn’t actually talk to you, why do you believe this is so?

8. A common misperception is that Athiests do not believe in a God. This is false. An Athiest is a person who listens to an assertion that a God exists, realise it the assertion not based on fact, and dismisses the assertion as unproven.

9. Why is it that people will disbelieve evolution because of slight gaps in scentific evidence, and instead believe in a religion based on no scientific evidence at all?

10. If it was proven that God didn’t exist, would you still be able to live a normal life? If not, do you consider this to be the main reason for your belief in God?

11. People believe that the proof that God exists is the fact that something incredibly unlikely happens, like the creation of Earth. The problem is a failure of understanding probability. The universe is infinite, meaning there is infinite chance of something happening *somewhere*, no matter how unlikely it is that it will happen at all. Hence the existance of Earth is hardly amazing. Even if the chance of something happening is 1 in 100000000000000000000000, as long as the result complies with the rules of the universe, it has to happen *somewhere* inside an infinite space.

Hope you enjoyed reading :)

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

Krister & Jessica

how well versed are you?
Explain the former and the latter Rain to me?
AND how they will happen in the same month?

World School Of Prophecy & News Events
Dominick
WSOPNE.org

To be clear, to those that claim there is such a thing as an “athiest[sic] religion”:

Atheism is not a religion.

I say again:

Atheism is not a religion.

Is it a hobby to not collecting stamps?

An atheist is someone that simply requires evidence in order to believe in something. The Bible is a rather poorly written collection of stories.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to drop the “nananana god is great, and you suck, my bible is a ticket to heaven” approach entirely.

If you were honest with yourself and others, you would have to admit, that although you feel very strongly that there is a god, you don’t really KNOW whether or not this assertion has any merit. There is no evidence to support the claim that god exists. None. Feeling strongly about something, or relying on a story book from the bronze age do not hold up.

I know what you are thinking: How dare he! How can anyone question the perfection of the good book?!

I’ll make it easy for both of us. Grab your King James Bible and skim through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts. After getting a refresher, try to name all of the Apostles.

12 right?

But what are their names?

What? You mean the Bible doesn’t consistently name the same guys in those four books? The names change, without explanation? The stories don’t match?

Bummer.

On the Internet you can find thousands of testimonials to the many ways that God works in our lives today. Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that?
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

I have never seen faith move a mountain, but I have seen it fly a plane into a building.

It is time for us to recognize as a society that there is no such thing as an atheist. Let me help you understand why this is the case.

Do you believe in Leprechauns? Probably not, because Leprechauns are imaginary. Yes, there are lots of books, movies and fairy tales dealing with Leprechauns. People talk about Leprechauns all the time. Leprechauns even have a popular brand of breakfast cereal. But that does not mean that Leprechauns exist.

We know that Leprechauns are imaginary. Why? Because there is no evidence for their existence. Despite all the publicity Leprechauns get, normal people dismiss storybook creatures like Leprechauns as myths, and rightly so.

If you do not believe in Leprechauns, what are you? Are you an aleprechaunist? Of course not. You are normal. People who do not believe in Leprechauns are completely normal.

The problem is that, in America today, if you say, “I am a normal person,” what everyone assumes is that you mean, “I am a Christian.” Currently we are a minority, and as long as we are a minority we need a name.

Posted by Matt | Report as abusive

Ask yourself the following questions:

-When I speak to God in my head, why doesn’t he respond like a conversation?
-Why hasn’t God made any attempts to openly contact his supposed children?
-Why does God allow good people to suffer from random occurences?
-Why is it that there is no actual scientific evidence of God?
-Why is it that the only evidence we can find for the existance of a god is based on assumptions? (eg: in order to prove the existance of a designer, you use the “evidence” that the universe is designed, which means you are assuming the existance of a designer, and using that assumption as evidence the designer exists)

Notice that when you ask these questions to yourself, you need to come up with some form of increasingly rationalization? And doesn’t it make you feel a little uncomfortable to come up with these reasons?

That is because you are feeling a sensation known as cognative dissonance. Where you believe something is true, even when there is no evidence that it is true, or where the evidence says it is false.

The only difference is that there are some people who recognise this situation for what it is. Those people are called Atheists.

Or as some people would label them, “nones”. Still, doesn’t it feel better to lable Atheists, rather then think about the uncomfortable feeling you have when trying to logically justify your religion?

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

Jessica, let me let you in on a little secret! I was Atheist, and one day I heard the truth, the word of God. From the moment I heard the truth my heart was opened to a new world and a new light. I am not in the dark anymore and I don’t care what century or era we are in. Nor, do I care about a degree in education. I know something you don’t. I know that God exists and I thank him every day for it! It’s free will. I will go to the right and you will go to the left. The Great thing about God, he lets you decide.

Posted by Mona | Report as abusive

My most recent T-shirt:

“Waiting for the Rapture,
so they’ll all go away.”
(I have to have faith in something.)

Since “God” knows all;

he is fully aware of his nonexistence.

Religion is what defines our species as primitive.

Belief in god is delusion, a class of mental illness,
if it persists.

Delusion causes severe cognitive dissonance beginning at about I.Q. 115, so “believers” claiming higher
IQ’s are liars!

-BT

Dominick,

I tried to email you but got a delivery failure notice. Maybe god didn’t want me to communicate via email. But I will persist and use human force via this blog to understand the proof of God which you and only you have. I was wondering what perturbed a man in company of god so much that he became a blogger and started saying whatever you are saying. I hope god didn’t get perturbed by god’s ignorance by mortals created by god. Please do not send me audio or video because I am deaf and dumb to these medium of communication. And make a good working email available and let’s pray to god in meantime when you get that email that it doesn’t throw failure notices due to act of God. All agreements including my post have this disclaimer “Act of God”.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

And on the Seventh Day, Mankind said:

“I shall create a concept called God. I will use him to explain all things I do not understand. I will use him as an excuse for why my laws and values should be obeyed by others. As my desires change, so too will he change to reflect my will.”

“I will use him as a reason to cast out those who defy me. If needed, I will use him as an excuse to kill or punish people as I desire. I will use him as a means to identify my tribe, and identify those who do not belong in my society”

“I shall write a book about him, and that book will be used as evidence he exists. His existance and rules will be taught to young children. The children will be told to believe he exists, until they believe he exists. They will be told that if evidence contradicts their belief, they must ignore this evidence or be punished”

And it was good.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

Matt, here is the answer to one of your questions and this is what I mean about Atheist not truly reading the bible. You take bits and pieces without reading its entirety and claim to be well versed. here is the answer about the apostles Other than the original twelve apostles and Matthias, who replaced Judas Iscariot, the New Testament identifies several other men as apostles, among them Barnabas, Paul, James and Jude the Lord’s brothers, and (probably) Silas (also called Silvanus). Read the bible and then you can debate once you have ALL the facts.

Posted by Mona | Report as abusive

You can put a pointy hat on a pig and “Believe” he’s Pope Porky…but believing does not make it true. Always seek evidence, where there is none…DON’T BELIEVE !!!

Posted by Bob Wood | Report as abusive

When someone says words like “god,” “spirit,” or the like, I automatically think the word “delusion,” instead.

Try it; “Praise delusion,” “Thank delusion,” “Going to

delusion when I die,” “Delusion created the heaven and

the earth,” “Delusion provides,” Delusion is my

copilot,” “The holy delusion is in our church,” etc., etc.

“Delusional” is only slightly more descriptive than “stupid,” so the latter will do for my purposes, just fine!

“Person’s of arrested cognition,”
just seems too polite, anymore.

Cheers, Bob

Absolutely correct Chesed. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the world’s population will be lost. It is only a remnant who will believe and be saved. Wide is the pathway to destruction and many there be who finds it, but narrow is the path to salvation and few there be who find IT.

So many people walk in the stubborness of their own hearts, denying that there is a G-d. Some think to themselves that they will repent “later”, after they have had all the “fun” they want to in life. After a tme, their hearts become hardened and they no longer want to come to the L-rd. Then, it is too late.

Posted by Sarah Marie | Report as abusive

Those of you who choose not to believe in the one true living God, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, what will you do if it turns out that HE infact DOES exist? Just becaue you don’t want to believe, you don’t want to live by His rules, does not excuse you in the judgement at the end of this age. Just as in civli law, ignorance of the law is no excuse. You will be held accountable for every action, every deed you have do in this life, every hash word, every SIN you have committed. This is not something to be taken lightly!

Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Your choice is WHEN you will confess it. You can do it now, and be saved from eternal damnation, or you can do it later, when it is too late to be saved. That choice is yours to make. All you have to do is ASK God to show you that He is indeed real, that He does exist. He will show you beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is real, that you can depend upon Him for everything. There is no other God but the God of the Bible. Jehovah, Yaway, YHVH are but a few of His names.

If you think that because you live a “good” life you will be accepted into heaven, without honoring and worshiping the God of the Universe, you will be sadly mistaken. Would you invite someone to live with you, in your home who has no respect for you, who insults you, your family, your very existence? I’m pretty sure you would not. Neither will God accept those types of people into His Kingdom. The soul is eternal, and it will exist somewhere. Since there are only 2 choices, heaven or hell, choose wisely!

Please do not group Islam with Judeo/Christian beliefs. Allah is not the God of Abraham, but the pagan moon god of the Arabs. Mohammad only put an end to their worshiping the other gods & goddsses linked to allah. If you notice, their symbol is still the crescent moon. This is proof that allah is the pagan moon god to this day.
God bless Isearl, and may Ha’Shem (God) bring peace to Jerusalem!

Posted by Chesed | Report as abusive

To Rohit
ijust spent 3 hrs with our web sever, who i wont advertise, fixing our contact isues………..
Now lets try this again
contact me
Dominick From
WSOPNE.org

What is up with all the people saying that we should read the Bible before rejecting it? Did you Christians read the Qur’an before rejecting it? Must we read the Qur’an, the Talmud, the Bhagavad Gita, and every other holy text in existence before we have the “right” to be non-religious? Or is the Bible so special that everyone in the world (including those raised Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist) should be required to read it before rejecting Christianity? Geez, people, get some perspective. The world is full of non-Christians. In fact, the great majority of humans are non-Christian. So quit trying to cast atheism as meaning “one who rejected the Christian god.” I mean, how self-centered can you get?

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

Believe what you will and so it is unto you so far as you are powerful enough to make it happen or remain deluded.

Individual believing and ‘organized religion’ that crosses the line to wield the sword of politics and corruption are sharply different issues.

Believe what you will, for as you see it, say it and do it, so it accrues to, as you.

That is your business.

However, most organized religions are essentially at war in the name of each their own ‘God’ with ALL others religions or lack thereof unless they sharply well ‘bow the knee’ when given the ‘choice’.

There is much ‘work’ to do to better straighten out this mess.

However, I am mightedly heartened by all those NOT of organized religion!!!!

Posted by Yukala | Report as abusive

I recently saw these words:

“There is no god, and you know it,”

which reminds me that I actually do have a “belief.”

I believe that “believers” are simply participating in a

social phenomenon called “religion,” and don’t really

believe the Tooth Fairy parts, because I take it on

faith that so much of the planet

couldn’t possibly be so dumb,

which just goes to show that I’m as delusional as the

rest, because we live on the high seas of Stupid!

It’s hard to overcome a lifetime of brainwashing,

so get busy right away; be your own person– be real!

Regards, BT

Atheism not a religion? The Supreme Court has ruled it is a religion.
It is a religion based on faith that there is no God. It takes as much faith to believe there is no God as it does for others to believe there is a God.
So the Universe brought itself into exsistence, Nothing created Something? Had design and order and this came out of chaos? Formed itself out of nothing? That takes real logic? Where did the material’s to create this Universe come from, nothing?
As Kristin solo stated, every spake of dirt turned over in the middle eas proves the Bible is totally correct, 44 men wrote 66 books and never contradicted each other? Can’t get two or three to agree on this post. There is more real evidence for God then there is for evolution, yet those who don’t want to live by His rules, want to be be a rule unto themselves, where everything but God is okay. I pray for them, because without God there is no peace:

Noah Idea: that’s about the best written and well thought out synopsis I’ve ever read. Thanks for that. :-)

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

To those who have so much faith, I have a request:

The next time you go to a funeral, ask the assembled friends and family to pray for the resurrection of their loved one. Stand up and proclaim that Jesus can bring this person up from the grave, and have everyone pray with you. Be bold. Show your faith. This is not an unreasonable request to ask of God, as He raised people from the dead in the Bible. He didn’t cure anyone of cancer in the Bible, so if you can pray for that, you can surely pray for resurrection, for which there’s a precedent.

Let me know how well it works. This will surely bring those atheists around.

Posted by Jeff | Report as abusive

Re Anon at 2:22 PM
What makes you think God does not communicate with His People?
Of course He does ! God is a loving Father aswell as
The Awesome God and King of the Universe and He loves nothing more than sharing a close personal relationship with each of His children.
If you understood the concept and the absolute necessity of Personal Salvation as depicted in the Bible you would know that when a person accepts Jesus Christ as his Saviour, the Holy Spirit indwells that person which is why the term ‘Born Again’ is used to indicate that a person has been spiritually enlivened , regenerated,
or re-born of the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit communicates wth us and informs us of the Heart and Mind of God. He reveals to us the character, attributes and ways of God via answered prayers or through the many and varied ways in which God speaks to us. For example as you speak with God in a personal way, which is one aspect of what prayer is all about, [not something you chant out of a book!] God responds > He may speak with a strong conviction or a still small voice into your spirit.
He can and does speak audibly at times. Oh yes-it’s true! He speaks via dreams and visions or in a prophetic utterance.Prophecy is not only foretelling it is also forthtelling and it is the channel by which God addresses issues and circumstances which are of relevance or concern to you . As you daily read The Bible or hear it preached it comes alive as The living Word of God and He will often highlight a particular verse or passage which applies directly to you and your personal circumstances and so give His personnal comment on them! Amazing and Awesome ! Prayers are answered often over and above what you asked and in ways which surprise you and take your breath away. In quiet communion with God He will often draw very close and His Presence can actually be felt and experienced. He watches over His children and continually leads and directs them. Christianity is unique in that it offers such a living relationship with God ! It is not based on a set of rules and regulations recorded in a book authored by men.
The Bible is the inspired Word of God written by men who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and who were therefore able to commune with God . Hey !Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it! The choice is yours!

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

There are two proofs of God.

First, is the fact that so many argue that He does not exist. If He does not exist, why all the arguing? If someone does want to believe He exists, what is the big deal. Why try to argue them out of it?

Second, is the fact that there is love. Those who believe that there is God and that Jesus Christ came into the world to re-establish a relationship with Him which is to last throughout eternity, tell those who don’t believe out of love because we also believe that the alternative to that is hell. Do those who argue against His existence argue out of love? Can you prove genuine love exists?

The existence of God means that each of us is accountable to Him for our lives. He has standards and we don’t want to live with those standards so the easiest thing to do is do all we can to believe He doesn’t exist. I, then, can live my life the way I want. That way is usually “for me.” I do what I want and do what makes me happy. The thought of being humble and putting others ahead of me is more than I can stand. It’s called putting “self” first.

Posted by Naomi | Report as abusive

Why doesn’t God heal amputees? Why doesn’t he intervene when innocent children are being killed and beaten and molested and sold into slavery? Why doesn’t God stop war, disease, terrorism, torture, and authoritarian regimes? Why does God care about how much or how little people believe in him? Why does God need their belief? What does he do with it?

A. Because there is no god.

Posted by kyle | Report as abusive

Quote by Benfox:

“As Kristin solo stated, every spake of dirt turned over in the middle eas proves the Bible is totally correct, 44 men wrote 66 books and never contradicted each other?”

This is completely bogus. You are trying to hard to believe in a ‘fairytale’, me thinks!

Posted by Yukala | Report as abusive

He does heal amputees. Why not all? It is done according to our faith. Why doesn’t He intervene? Sometimes He does. But, there are consequences to actions. When a people do not recognize Him or acknowledge that He exists or worship their own gods, how can we blame Him? Why should He bless what He has said is sin. He has given us all free choice; He does not push Himself on us. Throughout history, He has stopped wars, disease, terrorism, torture, and authoritarian regimes. We live in a world which is now dominated by evil and it would seem that evil prevails but it does not. I, too, have wondered as well. But the time is coming when His judgment will hit the earth. He is patient because He wants as many as will to come back to Him. He cares because He loves us. We rejected Him and He loved us enough to send His Son to die for us. He still gives us the choice to accept what He did or reject what He did. He needs our belief to have a relationship with us. We need that belief to have a relationship with Him. He takes that belief and calls us sons and daughters.

He is Almighty God. His thoughts and ways are not ours. Whether there is God or not does not depend on our belief. One day we will all know.

Posted by Naomi | Report as abusive

Dear Greg,

In 1968 and 1970 “three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time.

They published papers in which they extended Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy.”3 The singularity didn’t appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy – nothing.

So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don’t know. We don’t know where it came from, why it’s here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn’t exist and neither did we.

I am a Christian. The answer to the question regarding the Big Bang Theory is in Genesis 1:1-27 in its simplistic form,his word.

Until you can explain to me how our atmosphere has the precise mixture of 74% Nitrogen and a precise mixture of 21% oxygen It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper it doesn’t happen on any other planet that way.

93 million miles from the sun is the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe.
The size position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon.
A few degrees closer to the sun and we disintegrate a few degrees further from the sun we freeze.

The axis of the earth is tilted at a perfect 20 degree angle. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.

Until you can answer how these events are occuring I might begin to rationalize your statement or anyone else. Otherwise there is a GOD!

Posted by Mona | Report as abusive

Naomi,

Here are your proofs of God’s existence in a nutshell:

1. Talking about God’s existence is tacit approval of God’s existence.

2. I love people and you don’t, so whatever I say is right.

These are hardly “proofs”

Posted by kyle | Report as abusive

Quote by Noami,

“There are two proofs of God.

First, is the fact that so many argue that He does not exist. If He does not exist, why all the arguing? If someone does want to believe He exists, what is the big deal. Why try to argue them out of it?

Second, is the fact that there is love. Those who believe that there is God and that Jesus Christ came into the world to re-establish a relationship with Him which is to last throughout eternity, tell those who don’t believe out of love because we also believe that the alternative to that is hell. Do those who argue against His existence argue out of love? Can you prove genuine love exists?

The existence of God means that each of us is accountable to Him for our lives. He has standards and we don’t want to live with those standards so the easiest thing to do is do all we can to believe He doesn’t exist. I, then, can live my life the way I want. That way is usually “for me.” I do what I want and do what makes me happy. The thought of being humble and putting others ahead of me is more than I can stand. It’s called putting “self” first.”

Love there is, and a vast GOD. However, Jesus and Christianity et al is all BOGUS. Believing on any Savior is ‘soul slavery’; not the freedom you desperately desire.

‘Work out your own salvation’…

Have some real courage!!

Posted by Yukala | Report as abusive

On whether atheism is a religion: this very much depends on your definition of “religion”. The standard academic definition requires many things, including (if I recall correctly): a concept of the Divine (e.g. God), a system of morality, and rituals. So it fails that definition. But the legal definition of religion is different; and atheism is legally considered a religion. So in the end, it’s really just a semantic debate (and therefore uninteresting to me.)

But I think most people can agree that atheism is a faith-based belief, and that’s what matters. In fact, this faith (in the nonexistence of God) is the only thing that separates atheism from agnosticism. Faith can be defined as “belief without evidence.” An atheist *knows* in his heart that there is no God, and he doesn’t need evidence. He just knows. Whereas an agnostic is someone who does not claim to know one way or the other. Therefore, agnosticism is the only truly non-faith-based system, because no claims are made (unless you’re a “strong agnostic”, but that’s another topic.) If you say things like “I can’t really say for certain whether God exists”, then you’re not an atheist; you’re an agnostic. Many self-proclaimed atheists are simply unaware of this distinction.

Some atheists like to say that the burden of proof is upon the theist to prove God exists. And this is correct. However, the theist’s failure to meet this burden does not prove the atheist’s belief (that there is no God) correct. Nor is that belief automatically correct “by default”. The “default” is agnosticism, not atheism. You can’t just say “God is nonexistent until proven otherwise”, any more than you could say that the tooth fairy is nonexistent until proven otherwise. The tooth fairy may or may not exist. It is unknown (and perhaps unknowable.) The purple-snouted kwidgeenuffagus (which I just now made up) may or may not exist. If I wrote enough books about him, I might convince a billion people that he exists. But it would still be an unknown, just as it is now. Being agnostic means being comfortable with unknowns. Now, an agnostic might assign “probabilities of existence” to various entities, because this is necessary to avoid insane behavior (such as coating myself in corn syrup every hour because this is the only known defense against the purple-snouted kwidgeenuffagus). But the agnostic is always mindful that these probabilities are merely a personal convenience and may or may not be reflective of reality.

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

No matter what anyone says here, it will not change the fact that we can’t possibly know if any ‘god’ exists at this point.

Typically, I would not care what anyone believes in, but when powerful world leaders babble about ‘god’, that bothers me. There is so much they can change for the better in this world but if they keep clinging on to blind faith, how can real pragmatic thought ever really occur?

We don’t know, let go of your fear and accept it already.

Posted by the take | Report as abusive

Anyone may be cruel to others and anyone may be accepting.

I am an Agnostic Atheist. (I dislike t when people call themselves only agnostics, because they do not know what agnostic is.)

I do not randomly insult people about their religion, like some people portray atheists as, the stereotypical generalization.

I live in the USA and obey the laws.

Is it acceptable, that I walk down the street and a religious man hands my younger relatives a pamphlet about their sins, which will lead them to hell?

Is it acceptable that some people have to lie about my non-belief so, they do not become an outcast or have people call their boss to tell them that they are an atheist?

I dislike it how some people have such an ignorance towards science.

Why am I not allowed to love and be happy because of a non-belief?
Why are some atheists harassed by people, who DON”T EVEN KNOW WHAT ATHEISM IS?

Why do people tell me constantly that Atheism is a religion?

WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE IGNORANT OF OTHER PEOPLE?
Why do some people stereotype someone because they are different from them?

I have been told I am un-american and that I will burn in hell because of being atheist.
If I try explain atheism, I am called intolerant(Look it up in the dictionary)which is another example of ignorance.

Why are atheists considered the most dangerous minority? Why do some preachers say atheists are horrible people?

What is horrible is telling your child that their friend who just died will go to hell because her parents believed differently from you.

Anyone may be horrible or mean but also ANYONE no matter what they believe, are able to be kind and accepting.

Agnostic Atheism- An agnostic atheist is atheistic because he or she does not believe in the existence of any deity and is also agnostic because he or she does not claim to have definitive knowledge that a deity does not exist.

Posted by AprilRosedw | Report as abusive

Belief in a deity or deities is not proof for the deities existence.(Believing in God does not make him real)

Personal experiences of seeing a deity does not mean the deity exist.

If you say we do not know how our planet came to existence and we do not know why humans are so complex, SO there must be a god, then you are just inserting god into the blanks.

If we do not know HOW THE EARTH STARTED, what makes it plausible to say God created it.

And, Creation is a hypothesis not a theory.

Posted by AprilRosedw | Report as abusive

Why do we all stereotype and generalize?

I am able to say right now, that an secular society is bad and say a religious society is bad but that doesn’t make i true.

We need the separation of church and state.

Some many problems in the world and we do not need anymore because you think your beliefs are RIGHT. Let people live, and if they do disturbed or cause trouble them confront them, like what is being done with the priest molesting young children.

I do not need a book to tell me to be good. I also, obey laws and treat other people with kindness.

You are immature if you believe that someone different from you will go to hell or you believe they are horrible.

Why not be accepting and realize, SOME PEOPLE USE Religion TO JUSTIFY HORRIBLE THINGS AND SOME PEOPLE USE THEIR DIS-BELIEFS TO JUSTIFY HORRIBLE THINGS,

That does not make the true beliefs horrible but if the crime was done in a belief that is not true then we need to get rid of that belief.

Grow up and realize everyone is different and their beliefs or dis-beliefs does not make them horrible, their actions do.

Posted by Michael | Report as abusive

Atheism is NOT based on faith that there is no god ! It is based on the PROBABILITY that there is no god from the available evidence. The Supreme Court is probably all Theists and like all Goverment entities cannot function if something doe not fit a convenient category. Therefore it isn’t suprising that they wpould call Atheism a religion. Atheism is NOT a religion.

Posted by Bob Wood | Report as abusive

Okay, let me try to clear up some of the confusion I’m seeing about atheism vs agnosticism. The problem here is that some people on this forum are using the “official” philosophical terminology, while others are using common “street” terminology. Confusion ensues.

The term “atheist” in common usage typically refers to what philosophers call a “strong atheist”. This is a person who is certain that no gods exist.

The term “agnostic” in common usage typically refers to what philosophers call a “weak atheist”. This is a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in any god. Furthermore, a “strong agnostic” says “I cannot ever know whether God exists, and neither can you”, while a weak agnostic says “I don’t know whether God exists, but maybe some day we’ll find out.” All agnostics are technically considered “atheist” under the official philosophical definition of atheism (which is a broad umbrella term including many types of non-, anti-, or inadequate belief.)

When someone asks “are you an atheist or an agnostic?” what they mean (in technical terms) is “are you a strong atheist or a weak atheist?” But hardly anyone would ever ask it the second way.

I would propose that people on this forum start using only these terms: “strong atheist”, “strong agnostic”, and “weak agnostic”, since those terms are unambiguous and yet still agree with the common terminology used on the street. Well, I would propose this — but I would probably be ignored. ;-)

You can read more about the terminology here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_st rong_atheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

Mona.

You believe that the existance of the planet Earth is proof God exists. Because Earth is perfectly suited for life, and the chances of it’s creation were very small.

The reason that you believe this is the case is because you do not understand probability, or causation. To assist you in realising this, use this thought experiment.

Imagine a pair of dice. You can roll 2 to 12. These are the rules of the universe. No matter how many times you roll the dice, you can never roll higher then 12, or lower then 2.

Now imagine that the chance of rolling two ones represents the creation of earth. And that the chances of that roll ocurring are almost impossible, but not actually impossible. Lets say the chances of making the roll is 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000.

But the universe is infinite. And in an area of infinite space, there are infinite chances for something to occur. Infinite rolls of the dice, so to speak.

So it doesn’t matter how unlikely the roll. Because when you have unlimited rolls, over unlimited time, you have to roll that result at least once. Guaranteed. And one of those results is Earth.

In other words, the chances of Earth existing here and now was infinitly small. But the chances of a planet *like* Earth existing *somewhere* in the universe at *sometime* was guaranteed. It just happened to be us, and here and now.

As I have disproven your logic that the existance of Earth is proof of God, you must now find new proof.

To assist you in this matter, please do not submit comments which rely on:

-The bible
-Subjective human perception.
-Using an assumption that a creator exists as proof of your assumption (eg. Saying that as the universe is a design, there must be a designer. The issue being that the word design implies a designer, which means you are assuming what you are supposed to be proving)

Something involving science or physics (or just actual evidence) would be nice.

Looking forward to your reply :)

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

greg thank you so much for saying those hateful things. who needs god and the bible when we have you greg. the kool-aid has been drunk by you my friend. because you choose to listen to discovery channel and the history channel. check out the article MIRACLE OF THE SUN. a miracle predicted by a VISION of the virgin mary and i dare you to tell me 70,000 people were hallucinating.that’s the way it is with this seculiar world. everytime they can’t explain things that have happened it’s a hallucination. i think that is one of many things that prove there is something more than our puny human minds can comprehend.
p.s. by the way in some faiths the reason jesus died was for our sins. as part of god’s plan

Posted by Echo | Report as abusive

kyle the reason god doesn’t stop wars terrorism etc. because of one simple thing. free will. god won’t impose his will on us. he gives us the free will to change that. but mankind is inclined too much to greed and selfishness. so it is us to does these things not god.

Posted by echo | Report as abusive

-THE IRONY-
The irony is that religion has for millenia been the birthing bed of man’s most profound thought, his

highest aspirations and the rallying flag of civilization itself,
and is the cornerstone of who and what we are.

However, religion is what today most defines Homo Sapiens as a primitive creature, which is exactly

the opposite of the intention. Religion is indicative of arrested cognitive development, and must be

overcome if we are to face the future successfully; live in harmony and survive as a species.

It’s important to note that what separates religion from superstition is purely semantic, and the time

has obtained for a more aware, if not more rational being, to stand on the temple mound of his

ancestors and spy the horizon with a clear vision; one unclouded by the delusional refuge forced on a

creature seeking hard answers in a baffling universe.

Religion will ever continue to have an important role to play in the human experience, but it must shed

the dreams of its perpetual adolescence, and assume the mantle of its destiny in reality, which is

godless and nonmagical, except metaphorically, for only by that leap can the crowning maturity of what

we call “religion” be realized.

We must wear that crown of wisdom so dearly won; without its imaginary gems, while retaining the

gold of its substance. To be sure; we have far to go, but we are well along the way, thank God!
(Say it sans mirage.)

“Religion” must be narrowly and specifically defined to exclude cults and sects.
Under a strict definition Islam, Mormonism, The Neon Church of God would not qualify.

Theocracies must be eliminated globally by any means available without exception, and soon.

1- The many delusional elements of religion are raising questions about its similarity to mental illness

and concern that this afflicts nearly 85% of people worldwide, as the only known contagious “mental

illness.”

2- “Faith” in the religious sense is by it’s very nature error, and primarily escapism.

3- The inherent fantasy of religion is something the real world could never afford and it should
not be tolerated any longer, but be replaced with something more benign to our survival. ( “God”

would like that! )

4- The make-believe aspects of religion are enough to render it undesirable for civilized society.

5- Remember 9/11 was the result of a faith based initiative, as is the death of every American in Iraq.

6- Tax the churches as the businesses they are. Expose and jail the charlatan’s who “fleece the flock.”

7- Since the the traditional function of social welfare provider has been assumed by governments, the

main role of organized religion is as a community business, club, or gang, and should be regarded as

such.

8- Religion has enjoyed a free ride for countless centuries, and it’s about time that hayride came to an

end.

COMMENT:
The Ten Commandments and countless lessons in the Bible make sense and are irrefutably sound.
Invisible entities with magical powers, angels, prophesy, miracles, Heaven, Hell, and all the rest is

patent nonsense, and does not deserve deference, tolerance, or respect,
because it departs from the truths reality presents.

THE CHURCHES:
The churches are comprised of the cognitively arrested, and the hucksters who ply them for cash and

mind control. Tax the Jesus out of them, and give them a taste of real “religion.”

To conclude that religion is anything but superstition is error, and if earnestly pursued is patently

stupid, and actually dangerous in several aspects that raise it to the level of social poison,
i.e. “bad for humanity.”

The current “institutions” of religion are vast money generating machines, and
I cannot view the people who work the churches as “stupid,” but, rather, criminal, or
the fleeced flock as anything but stupid, or, at the very least, foolish.
I can’t believe desperation is enough to make men embrace lies.

Religion is by and for people of weak minds and character, there can be no doubt.
Certainly anyone who cannot be a good and decent person unless under threat of punishment,
isn’t the genuine article, so does it follow that religious types are essentially disingenuous or phony?

Posted by bobtegner | Report as abusive

The unbelieving element here who refer to God and His Word, the Bible, as bogus, fairy tale, wishful thinking, imagnation etc are at a disadvantage in their capacity to decide the issue!They do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and cannot clearly perceive the things of God . They do not have the knowledge of His Word so ask questions about resurrecting the dead, healing the sick etc which are addressed in His Word.
To put yourself at such an unfair disadvantage is detrimental to you since your eternal welfare depends on the most important decision you will ever make which is whether to accept or reject God . Look up God for yourselves folks before you are confronted with HIM and He rejects you! Life is but a whisp of smoke and afterwards>>>well that depends on what you decide now.
Is God a fairy tale? If you think so, be prepared for your worst nightmare on the other side of the grave.
Is God Real? You bet He is ! Seek Him out and you will find your best and most beautiful dreams fulfilled – and more on the other side of the grave! Your choice! God will not force you. He is the Lover of your soul. Love is a two way thing! So God allows free will and freedom to choose but your choice determines your eternal destiny !

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

The miracle of the sun.

An event where a couple of people noticed the sun had a weird distortion to it. Most people panicked because they didn’t know why this was so.

Soon rumors started to spread that it was the end of days (which turned out to be wrong). Others claimed to have strange colours flashing in their eyes (because they were looking at the sun and harming their retinas, funny enough).

Others then started to say it was a divine occurrence. Before you know it, people swear that they heard from a friend that another person had bona fide visions of Mary would you believe. And the whole thing turns stupid.

Probable cause? Gee. Water vapor? Clouds? Smoke from a bushfire? Dust from North Africa? Who can say. All the event consisted of was distorted sunlight. And rumors of of other people having visions.

Proof of a god? Hardly. Just a bunch of Portuguese who started panicking because they didn’t know what was going on.

The event would only be proof of God if there was evidence God was the cause. So what proof is there that the event was caused by a god?

-The Pope said so? That isn’t evidence.
-People say it was a miracle? That’s just their opinion.
-People don’t know why it happened? That doesn’t mean a God did it. It just means you don’t know what happened.

As people do not know WHY the event happened, this means they can’t know a god was the cause. Meaning they can’t use the event as proof a god exists.

I’m still waiting for some scientific evidence about the existance of a god. Or just plain evidence. Anyone got any? Anything at all?

Remember, no biblespeak or assumptions please. Neither of those things are evidence. Because they assume what they are supposed to prove. And that just ain’t logical.

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

God is not in the business of entertaining folk with supernatural occurrences and visions of Mary etc.
Mary is just as dead as the rest and cannot appear until the Resurrection as depicted in Matthew chapter 24.
Such visitations and phenomena are not from GOD!
They belong to the weirdos, the cults and the pseudo religious establishment – fanatical seekers of vain experiences!
But GOD sure does miracles today ..you just don’t hear about them unless you are among a group of Bible believing born again people We don’t make a spectacle of Our God! He is too precious!! He reveals Himself only to those with a genuine seeking heart not to those who are looking for shallow experiences as proof of His existence . God does not need to prove Himself.

Posted by Angela | Report as abusive

Oh really, Mona, all atheists should read the bible? And how many fundamentalists do you know who’ve read On the Origin of Species, Harry Potter, or the Da Vinci Code?

Posted by Sheavsey | Report as abusive

Is Harry Potter THE MESSIAH?

Garbage in Garbage out…………
WOSOPNE.org

Well Sheavsey, I guess it all comes down to how discerning is your taste in literature.
Give me The Bible every time!
I want be educated in the Truth as inspired by God,the Holy Spirit, rather than be influenced by the fanciful theories and dark imaginations of mere mortal man
Incidentally – Charles Darwin apologised towards the end of his life for leading people astray with his flawed geological conclusions based on that five year voyage on the Beagle. God has been around considerably longer!
I hope Charles Darwin was sorry enough to repent before God for so presumptuously challenging The Word of The Infinite Creator !

Posted by KristinSolo | Report as abusive

KristinSolo.

Why do you believe a god exists? What evidence can you point to that shows this to be true?

-The bible is not evidence of a god. Because it was written by man. How can something written by man be proof of a god?

-The existance of an eye is not evidence of a god. Eyes began as very single nerve endings to detect changes in light in simple organisms. Then they became more complex through natural selection and mutation. It took many years, and many eyes, before we reached the final product we use today as eyes. And no designer needs to be implied into the process.

-The existance of claimed “miracles” is not evidence of a god. Because the very definition of a miracle is that we do not know what caused it. How can a miracle be proof of anything, except that we don’t know what caused it?

-The existance of Earth is not proof of a god. Because even though the chances of a planet like Earth existing are incredibly small, it was guaranteed to happen somewhere in a universe where there is incredibly infinite space.

-The existance of a complex universe is not evidence of a god. Because complexity is only proof of complexity. Just because something is complex, doesn’t mean it is a design. Assuming something is a design cannot be used to prove the existance of a designer, because this is circular logic.

-The existance of a universe is not evidence of a god. Because even if the universe requires a cause, there is no evidence to indicate the cause is a god.

-And even if you believe a universe requires a god, then how was the creator created? Why is it you feel that the universe requires a cause, but not a creator? Why do you believe in something even more unlikely then a creatorless universe, the concept of a creatorless creator?

Consider all these things, and you will see that it is religion which is the product of fanciful theory and dark imagination.

The reality is that you believe something for which you have no actual grounds or evidence to believe. And unless you have actual proof, it is illogical to say that there is a god. Or that Athiests are incorrect.

That is the only objective truth here. Athiests are simply those who realise this truth. And reading a book that has been written and rewritten by many men will not change that truth. Not unless you are willing to believe something without actual proof or reason.

P.S- Darwin knew that his theory of evolution was only the beginning, and that further information would be discovered as time went on. At no point did he ever discount his theory as incorrect, only as incomplete. If you knew anything about his research, you would know this.

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

“Well Sheavsey, I guess it all comes down to how discerning is your taste in literature.
Give me The Bible every time!”

Yeah, those long chapters of names and lists of ways to punish women for menstruating the wrong way are real page turners..

“Incidentally – Charles Darwin apologised towards the end of his life for leading people astray with his flawed geological conclusions based on that five year voyage on the Beagle.Give me The Bible every time!”

It’s so charming that you believe things like this, regardless of whether they are even close to an accurate representation, and even more quaint that you think Darwin’s particular views somehow define the limits of science for all time.

Hey Drew – I was specifically addressing the comments re Darwin, Harry Potter and The Da Vinci Code – a commendable trio for promoting confusion, illusion and delusion!!! Science cannot disprove God -don’t ya know that by now? Nothing quaint friend about Facts but much folly re your negative comeback without checking out the validity of them ! Nothing quaint either about appreciating the profound truths of the Bible!
The aspects you mention depict that you have not even scratched the surface.
Whew! An unwise move to knock it before you know it!
You’re welcome to try it before you buy it HUH?!
No one’s forcing you. Your choice !
You won’t be able to say no-one told you though !

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

Quotes by Kristin Solo

“The unbelieving element here who refer to God and His Word, the Bible, as bogus, fairy tale, wishful thinking, imagnation etc are at a disadvantage in their capacity to decide the issue!They do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and cannot clearly perceive the things of God . They do not have the knowledge of His Word so ask questions about resurrecting the dead, healing the sick etc which are addressed in His Word.”
—-

Interesting, sitting smug yet?

I was all those things and probably still know much more than most so called, men of God preaching from pulpits of hypocrisy. Holy Spirit comes from the depth of one own divinity. All that is alive possesses same. Each their own spark, nurture as you please for all surely will. However this is not Christianity, or of Jesus. Not of any prophet, nor religion, it is simply ‘inherent’.

“To put yourself at such an unfair disadvantage is detrimental to you since your eternal welfare depends on the most important decision you will ever make which is whether to accept or reject God . Look up God for yourselves folks before you are confronted with HIM and He rejects you! Life is but a whisp of smoke and afterwards>>>well that depends on what you decide now.”
—-

Wrong, you speak not for God whatsoever!! You know not His mind or judgment. There is only one LAW, ‘balance’ and it needs no enforcement. It enforces itself.

“Is God a fairy tale? If you think so, be prepared for your worst nightmare on the other side of the grave.
Is God Real? You bet He is ! Seek Him out and you will find your best and most beautiful dreams fulfilled – and more on the other side of the grave! Your choice! God will not force you. He is the Lover of your soul. Love is a two way thing! So God allows free will and freedom to choose but your choice determines your eternal destiny !”
—-

Jesus is the FAIRY TALE. Too bad really so many believe to each their own detriment. Too bad so many umpteen millions encumbered with ‘soul slavery’ thinking saved by Jesus, Apollo or Allah or Krishna or anything else ‘outside your SELF’. Too bad, however you will have eons to figure it out for yourself.

You can look me up some eternity down the road, as I AM I, already ETERNAL.

Kind Regards,

Posted by Yukala | Report as abusive

Mr Joker/ Hahaha
Quote:
‘For most of his life Darwin was not an atheist, but a deist; that is he believed that a creator had designed the universe and set up natural laws according to which all of nature was unwaveringly governed. It was the pursuit of a man of science to discover the laws by which nature operated. He discussed his religious views in his autobiography (these appear, however, only in the 1958 edition by Nora Barlow with original omissions restored.)’

There are as many claims that Darwin apologised for misleading people with his theory as there are denials of the same !

I have addressed the rest of your questions in a previous post
re’
GOD COMMUNICATES WITH HIS PEOPLE’
THAT- is undeniable proof of God’s existence but it is not a proof which you can know or experience as an unbeliever because you are devoid of the Spirit of God.
However -God promises that He will make Himself known to All who seek Him with sincerity.
The Bible indicates that the things of God are spiritually discerned and cannot be understood by those who are not spiritually enlightened.
You can study and analyse every resource under the sun- and that may well point you in the right direction but you will not adequately prove that God exists until you approach Him in faith.
You can attempt to undermine, ridicule, mock and deny the faith of Born Again Believers but you cannot make the slightest impact in their conviction that God exists because – Not only do they know more about Him than you do, being well acqainted with His Word, as revealed in The Bible, but …THEY KNOW GOD HIMSELF!

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

How can anyone be so certain that their god is THE god? Even a Christian is an atheist when it comes to believing in Zeus, Odin, or Brahma. None of us are arguing for the existence of the pagan pantheon, but this Yahweh guy, he’s the real deal! Again, how can you be so sure, when so many other gods throughout history have been pushed to the wayside? What makes the god of the Jews different from the gods of the Romans?

Posted by kyle | Report as abusive

Dear Anon,

Did you just quote fact or theory? I think theory.
Define theory = An unproven conjecture; An expectation of what should happen, barring unforeseen circumstances;(sciences) A coherent statement or set of statements that attempts to explain observed phenomena.

Using probability theory, calculate the probability of getting totals of 2,3,4 .. 12 when throwing two six-sided dice.

There goes the probability theory!

The difference between your theories and my facts is that I do not need to prove the bible it proves itself.

The Bible never states any theories! It states facts by two or more wittnesses,acutally hundreds testified to witnessing many of the bible events. You can not discredit something unless you have fact to back up your statement.

God said he created the heavens and earth,to include man,everything under the water,animals, and creepy crawley things. He never once said in theory I created the heavens and earth.

You can’t discredit the bible history no more than I can regarding our own history in America, And, since we weren’t there in the beginning of either history I am just going to have to take his word for it. On the other hand, you keep believeing in theories.

Have a good day Anon!

Posted by Mona | Report as abusive

BIGBANG is Wrong

Recently, I was watching on TV a Britain lecturing on bigbang, at the end of the talk one man stood up questioned him- what was there a minute before bigbang? The speaker didn’t have an answer. Then, OUR universe is expanding, they say. Agreed but into what? Is it encroaching upon the adjascent universes already in situ all around it. Don’t get me wrong, I read and learn from recent publications, especially astrophysics, with genuine almost childish enthusiasm. We are still stuck with a probe to poor demoted pluto (it takes few more yrs to reach it), at this rate when are we going to probe outside our milkyway galaxy? Religion or not our earthly existence is thoroughly entwined with creation.

Point is physics is already there and we are rediscovering it piecemeal, not creating it. Once we realize that the creation is infinite/ unlimited, then physics that we mastered/ will master has problems to remain on solid ground. Part of the contingency that scripted Vedas/upanishads was comprised of research scholars and werent pragmatic religionists. The clarity is unmistakable- brahma/ almighty/ supreme power/god/holy father etc, which is formless, genderless, infinite in size and age concept was available for the consumption of all humanity. Nextly, in this backdrop the humanity is cautioned not to harbor any superstitions and thoroughly avoid pursuing simple carnal pleasures etc. and encouraged instead to view the earthly journey in the context of infinite creation/ creator. In these scriptures, there is also an assertion of oneness in both creation and creator- coined Monistic or advaitic philosophy. These concepts are hard to understand leave alone accepting them, just as is the case with advanced physics. A certain mental software is a prerequisite to first understand then to find out solutions to these complex cosmic problems.

One should liberate oneself from the limitations imposed on human mind by restrictive religious doctrines. Religions are great in terms of giving a precept like dont lie, dont steal and the like, however one needsenjoy freedom to question the ‘meaning of it all’. Upanisads, written in sanskrit, offer a base working model to continue work and to uplift the contemporary humanitys acess to creator. Understand – just as the dinosaurs disappeared, human race is bound to face same extinction give or take a few milllion years. Sounds helpless and hopeless. Agree. The collective intelligence of human race from its inception till its demise cannot figure out the secrets of creation or creator. Its a different matter the search should continue.With advanced gadgets the astrophysicists will confirm the millennia old findings of vedic spiritual scientists, which is ‘this creation creator is infinite in both time and space’. Bigbang evaporates in a second. Does it not make dharma based vedic scholars bond with atheists/agnostics. What is certain though is they are angering the abrahamic religionists.

Probability is not a theory. It is a mathamatical fact. I fear you simply didn’t properly read or understand the thought experiment.

In an incredibly large space, the chances of an unlikely event occuring is almost guaranteed to occur at least once. If you do not understand this, then it is because you do not understand probability.

Regarding your other remarks, please stop focusing on my position, and whether it is fact or theory. This is incorrect. My position is not the issue here.

The focus is on *your* position. You are the one who asserts that a god exists. Hence you are the one who has the burden of proving this assertion.

And yet you claim the bible makes no assertion? I agree. The bible never made the assertion. You did, when you claim the bible is true. If you claim the bible is true, you also claim a god exists. Which means you must prove these things.

The bible is hearsay. It is a document written by man. It has been edited and censored by various people. None of it’s *supernatural* claims can be verified. As probative evidence, it is worthless.

I will state it simply:
-You say the bible proves the existance of a god.
-This means you are assuming the bible is true.
-The truth of the bible has not been proven.
-So your logic is flawed.

Essentially you are saying “God exists, because the bible is true”. Don’t you see the lack of logic in your statement?

Please look up the definition of “circular logic” and present some different evidence. Scientific or actual. No more bible please.

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

Kristin Solo

You have been asked to provide scientific evidence, or actual evidence, that a god exists. You have failed to provide this evidence.

Hence it must be concluded that you believe something for which you have no reason or evidence to believe. And that means your assertions, all of them, can be dismissed as groundless.

You can believe anything you want. But just because you believe something, does not make it true. And just because you say something, does not make it true.

The truth is something which is proven by facts and evidence. You have neither facts or evidence. Hence, this means you cannot have truth either.

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

Mona. There are two uses for the word ‘theory’ as defined by the dictionary.

The non-technical term for theory is “a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural”.

Example: “The belief in a god is a groundless theory.”

The technical term for theory used in science is “a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena”

Example: “The theory of evolution is a cohesive explaination for current scientific observations on the development of life”

Please be more careful about how you use such words in the future.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

HEY Hahaha !
Read My post again . God exists! I have MY Proof.
The Bible was written by men inspired by The Holy Spirit .
The ancient gods of the empires of Assyria Babylon Persia Egypt and Rome and their many derivatives that exist today are mentioned in the Bible as the opposition to YAHWEH the One true God.
Those idols and icons of wood, stone, gold, silver, iron, brass and glass cannot communicate with you as GOD does! There’s no proof in them.
Here endeth the debate – I dont do endless repetitions.
Have a good journey through Life. Sorry I won’t see you at the end of it !

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

You don’t do repetition? More like you don’t do proof.

Your posts have two arguments for why a god exists:

-”Because I say the bible is true, it is true”
-”Because I say a god exists, he exists”

Both of these arguments are not logical. Meaning that your belief is not logical. And when you repeat your arguments, you are repeat illogical arguments.

You say the bible was written by people inspired by the holy spirit. How do you know this was the case? Where is your evidence?

You say the bible is true and this proves god. How do you know the bible is true? Where is your evidence?

You say you have the holy spirit and this proves god. How do you know this? Where is your evidence? Can you prove it? How do we know you are not a liar? Or deluded? Or mentally unstable?

You need to learn something important. Just because you say something is true, does not make it true. And just because you believe something is true, does not make it true.

Provide evidence. Or you lose the debate. If you have any real faith in a god, you will defend it now.

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

You sure are a hard headed guy Mr Hahaha. with a self descriptive name!
Mrs Solo has told you what the proof is, so quit repeating the same questions and arguements and consider using that hard head of yours to check it out for yourself !
Currently , You don’t have the Holy Ghost , Jokerman, so the joke’s on you!
The Bible was NOT written by Men!
It was written by ‘ Men moved by the Holy Ghost ‘ and is therefore inspired by God!
Major Difference!
God is no dumb, lifeless idol !
He communicates with Mankind !
He acts in the affairs of this World which is currently on a collision course with The Wrath of God !
So unless you got the ticket out – Expect it to be a rough ride ahead!

Posted by Raphael M | Report as abusive

To Hahaha
In your self imposed ignorance you resort to vain implications of possible lies or delusion in those who claim to know God, to hear from God and who accept that the Bible speaks truth when it claims to be the inspired Word of God – proven in personal experience !
Enough has been said to defend Faith in the Living God and the reality of a relationship with Him.
In the last analysis it’s a personal issue.
You either got it or you aint . Nobody who has got it is threatend by your denials. They do not need to keep proving what they know to be REAL for the benefit of the everlasting doubters who will crowd the wide road to destruction all the way to Hell -as predicted in the Bible!

Posted by BenMelech | Report as abusive

You want more Mr Hahaha?
OK here’s a repetition for ya!

You can study and analyse every resource under the sun- and that may well point you in the right direction but you will not adequately prove that God exists until you approach Him in faith.
You can attempt to undermine, ridicule, mock and deny the faith of Born Again Believers but you cannot make the slightest impact in their conviction that God exists because – Not only do they know more about Him than you do, being well acqainted with His Word, as revealed in The Bible, but … THEY KNOW GOD HIMSELF
PS:
I may ‘lose the debate’ by your flawed definition…
But I won’t lose my Soul!
You will be the Loser there – big time

Posted by Kristin Solo | Report as abusive

The bible was a book. Written by man. That is a fact we can all agree on.

But do you have any evidence the bible is true? Do you have evidence that it was inspired by a deity? If not, then your “proof” is no evidence at all.

If you cannot prove these things, then you cannot use the bible to prove the existance of a god. This is simple and logical. But you seem to have trouble accepting this.

If you cannot provide proof, you lose the debate. Not in a “flawed” way. But in every way. Because you have made an assertion you cannot prove. And when confronted with this, you retreat and refuse to justify yourself.

You cannot say “The bible is true, because it is true”. Because that is illogical.

If I repeat my statements and questions, it is because you are being evasive in your answers. I ask you for proof, and you refuse to provide it. I confront you with statements which you refuse to address. You call things evidence, when it is not evidence.

I fear this is because you *cannot* provide proof. And you know it, but do not want to admit it.

You claim that you cannot prove that a god exists without having faith. Well you seem to have faith. So by your own admission, you can provide the proof that a god exists. So prove it please. Show it.

Or do you mean your faith is proof of god? I do not think you mean this. Because you know faith is belief. And belief is not evidence of anything, except that you believe something without evidence. It certainly does not prove there is a god.

You say you know there is a god. But you have no evidence to back up your faith. Which means you cannot possibly *know* there is a god. If you have no proof, how can you *know* something?

Which means when you claim to *know* there is a god, then you are the liar. Not me. And accusing me of lying is a sign of your dishonesty. Both to me, and possibly to yourself.

Unless you can provide evidence the bible is true, do not expect a further response from me. You are retreating to your circular logic, like all theists do when they find out they cannot justify their belief.

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

Kristin Solo , Hahaha, yakala

Refer to sanskrit scriptures written millennia ago. They have some baseline theories for the Einstein’s and astrophysicists to chew on. The creator and creation is one and same and that’s the Adwaita or monistic theory. The creator and creation is infinite in terms of age and size. Creation or brahma is amritam or immortal. They are throwing their hat in the arena challenging us, modernists, to disprove it. I agree they (Upanishads and Vedas) have no proof that creation ( brahma) is infinite. But its far more difficult proving that the creation is finite. Once you say infinite you are sitting pretty, you see, no one can demand proof because their excuse is since its infinite so they cannt reach the end.

Don’t dismiss it as imaginary metaphysics, if scientists reset their mind set to this effect, they may be able to steer their search in a different direction. In our limited time (human life in its entirety) on earth, which itself has a limited life in the solar system, we can fight all our short existence about god and end up without any agreement.

Here we are not asking the definition of god and religionists are not attempting that onerous task and are elusive. Are they talking about the same god (Brahma, Holy Father, and creator) who takes care of all the galaxies of universe or s/he is mostly handling the homo sapiense? If s/he undertakes the running of whole creation, s/he has no serious obligation to worry about the humans who are equal to amoebae or bacteria living in our guts. So, the religionists should climb down and say, look we are just trying to give a code of conduct thru religion and we also confess we don’t know anything about creator. Thats what was stated in an indirect manner in sanskrit scriptures. Instead, should they chose to proclaim to be custodians of heaven and hell, they are walking on thin ice and are pitifully diluting the application of religion to human life which is a mere rule book with lot of myth and lot of fanfare spiced into it.

This is pointless.
Why do you feel the need to turn this into a rational debate? Religion is not a rational debate that one can ‘lose’. Like many of the other faithful Christians on this comment board, I know that there is a God because it has been made manifest unto me through the power of the Holy Spirit.
But, you of course would argue, this is not proof enough – God does not necessarily exist simply because I say he does, which is absolutely true. The only person who can give you evidence of the existence of God is God himself, and nothing that either of us says will prove or disprove this.
See, I admit it: I *cannot* provide proof, but that doesn’t mean proof doesn’t exist, so quit barking up the wrong tree.

Posted by @HaHaHa | Report as abusive

Hahaha and Kristin: I think you may be going around in circles because you’re using different definitions of proof. Hahaha seems to define proof in the conventional way: “evidence or reason which logically derives a conclusion from observations.” But under this definition, no aspect of reality can be proven; you can’t even prove to another person that you yourself exist. Only formal theorems (such as math) can be proven this way. Kristin, on the other hand, seems to define proof as an emotionally fulfilling explanation. Obviously her arguments are circular, but I don’t think she’s going for logical proof. She knows there is no logical proof of God; there are only personal, emotional, intimate proofs of God. There is direct knowledge of God through “touching” him, i.e. through revelation. Now, of course, the Christian, the Hindu, and the pantheist will all experience revelation in very different ways and will thus worship very different Creators (or no Creator at all). And each will call the others’ faiths false. And an external observer (such as myself) will find no logical reason to prefer one to the other. In fact, logic cannot possibly be the arbiter, because NONE of these faiths have anything to do with logic. Frankly, they have more to do with where a person grew up, and what they were taught as a child.

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

Hahaha: As a long time agnostic who enjoys starting spiritual debates, I can tell you that you’ll never get anywhere by debating proofs of God or the Bible. Christians have been having that debate all their lives, and they already have answers to every challenge. It’s their comfort zone, and you’ll never dislodge them.

I’ve found that I get far better traction by asking the simple question: “Even if I were to choose a religion, what makes Christianity more true than the next one?” That word “true” is critical. Do not replace it with “better than” or “different from”. The Christian will have many reasons why their religion is “better” than others (i.e. it offers better benefits, such as a personal savior), but they will be hard-pressed to show that their belief is more *true* than that of the next religion. If they say the Bible was divinely inspired, don’t directly challenge the notion of divine inspiration. Merely point out that the Qur’an, the Talmud, and the Bhagavad Gita were also divinely inspired, that they all have completely different (and contradictory) recipes for salvation, and that they all seem to have equal claims to truth. For every Christian argument they make, it is trivial to counter with the equivalent argument from any of a thousand competing religions. Don’t say that all religious arguments are nonsense; say that they all seem to have equal claim to truth. And if someone asks why you’re so hung up on this truth thing, then say “Well, I just feel like it would be disingenuous to join a religion without really believing in it, and to believe is to ascribe truth.” Ultimately, Christians believe religious truth comes from direct revelation (prayer, etc.) So if they say, “well, you just have to pray on it, to contact Jesus directly”, then you can say, “That’s funny, my Hindu friend said the same thing about Ganesh the other day.” But whatever you do, do NOT say “prayer is bunk.” They’re expecting that, and they have an answer (many answers, in fact). Never directly challenge the notion of faith. Rather, play one faith against another. It’s like judo. And don’t worry about trying to make the point that all religions are false; rather, say that they all have equal claim to truth (which is essentially the same thing, but is a more defensible position.) But the point is to remain open-minded, and never directly challenge anyone’s right to have faith.

Through this non-confrontational approach, I’ve actually had more than one Christian say “Well, I can’t really say with absolute certainty that all those other religions are false”, and then when I define “agnosticism” for them, they conclude that they must be agnostic. Because, and make no mistake on this — Christianity CANNOT be true without most other religions being false. The Bible directly and substantially contradicts almost all other holy books. It agrees with some (but not all) of those books on the existence of a single, primordial Creator god, but it differs substantially from those books on just about everything else — including the fundamental nature of that God and what He wants from us (or even that He is capable of wanting). Most religions don’t even have anything resembling the Christian notions of Heaven and Hell, much less Judgement. And finally, the Bible directly quotes Jesus himself claiming that you can only reach Heaven through Jesus. So the notion that a Christian can admit the possible truth of other religions is false. And that is the weakness of their position: they could no more disprove another religion than they could disprove their own. They’re not trained to disprove faith. You’ll notice that although I’ve asked many times on this forum what makes Christianity more true than other religions, no one has ever answered. They much prefer to answer your more direct challenges against faith in general, so that they may continue to hide under the unspoken assumption that faith = Christianity.

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

Real Christians such as myself and the other worthy writers here can explain to you in much detail why we believe in The God of The Bible as opposed to no god or to the man manufactured gods which cannot engage with you on any personal terms!
But definitive proof can only be given to you by GOD ALONE .
One encounter with Him and you will forget all your wordy verbal elaborations re trying to explain Him away!

Posted by KristinSolo | Report as abusive

God : a being who’s only defenition is that he cannot be understood. –Ayn Rand

Posted by taude | Report as abusive

That might sound impressive to some taude,
but it is nothing but presumptuous conjecture enclosed in glaring error !

Posted by Angela | Report as abusive

KristinSolo wrote: “Real Christians such as myself and the other worthy writers here can explain to you in much detail why we believe in The God of The Bible as opposed to no god or to the man manufactured gods which cannot engage with you on any personal terms!”

Please do. Pretend that someone who has never heard of any god has just been presented with thousands of gods to choose from, including yours. Explain to this person exactly why your God is more likely to exist than any of these others (including many which engage with their believers on personal terms just as yours does). And explain why your holy text is more likely to have been divinely inspired than all the others.

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

To those who don’t like the God of the Universe telling them what do do, I say, every law of man came by the 10 commandment’s, before God gave them to Moses in the form of a stone tablet, He gave in to men in their hearts. Those who don’t like them would like them to go away, that way they can date their own sex, kill babies without reguard that only life grow’s not none beings, never heard of sperm and a egg creating a clump of anything that wouldn’t grow, even germs and mole, grows because it is alive. Can’t do what ever you want and even when you fight it, you know in your heart, your wrong, or there is no right or wrong? Isn’t that really the reason you put up such foolish comment’s that you think is knowledge?
If the world was here a million years ago, we would have been 480 miles closer to the sun, what could live? What would grow? And since the water would boil, nothing could have come out of it, it would have been sterile, have many more proof’s if need be but, hope you will give this one some thought? That is real science, proven the sun shirk’s at 2 1/2 to 3 feet per year, also
disputes Global warming. That is a scientific fact, proven by phyistist.

If a theist is going to make an assertion that a god exists, or that the bible was true, or that the bible was written by divine inspiration, that is fine.

But then when they are confronted and asked to prove their claims, they start complaining about it.

Confronted with logical arguments and questions they cannot answer, they retreat into circular reasoning. And when you poke them mercilessly about it, they just repeat their circular reasoning over and over.

Perhaps they think repeating something is proof it is true? Who can say? I certainly don’t think so.

To all theists, I say this:

If you don’t like being confronted about the assertions you decide to make, then don’t make them in the first place.

Just say that your faith is not based on logic, reason or evidence, and leave it at that. Accept that your faith is groundless. It doesn’t mean you have to cast it away. Just that there is no objective reason to have it.

But don’t go around claiming that a god exists, and that you are correct, and then start complaining when someone takes you to task.

Or go to your local priest and ask him for help. Perhaps he can provide you the evidence which you seem unable to provide to me? If he does, let me know.

Posted by Hahaha | Report as abusive

Thought experiment (Just for a bit of Atheist fun):

-Imagine for a second that there is a God.
-And that he is all powerful.
-Logically, this would mean that no scientific evidence could be used to prove his existance.
-Because all things, including evidence, could be manipulated by him to mean whatever he wants.

-Logically, this means the only person who can prove God exists, is God.
-That means that the person who has the onus of proving God exists, is God.

-There is no evidence in this universe that God exists.
-God has not met the onus of proving to us that he does, in fact, exist.
-Meaning that even if a God exists, there is no reason to believe he exists.

In conclusion, even if God does exist, he has not met the onus of proving his own existance. Which means there is no reason to believe he exists, whether he exists or not.

Take that, theists!

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

Well, Angela, i am glad we agree on our beliefs on “god”. :)

Posted by taude | Report as abusive

Damon wrote:

1] (including many which engage with their believers on personal terms just as yours does).

Reply:
I have yet to hear of one !

2] And explain why your holy text is more likely to have been divinely inspired than all the others.

Reply:
No self proclaimed prophet could have recorded the events that have have been fulfilled exactly in accordance with the Bible’s predictions.
Nor could they have predicted what is currently happening in the World and the direction in which it will lead unless it had been revealed to them by God.
See for yourself by comparing the prophetic revelation of Daniel with The Revelation revealed to John .Both of these books were ‘sealed until the time of the end’
If you accept the challenge you will perceive that we are now in the time of the end!
Read also the prophecy of the imminent war of Gog Magog recorded in Ezekiel’ Prophecy chapters 38 and 39 .It will be fulfilled just around the corner.
This is serious information and it is Divine knowledge for our edification so that we are not caught unawares as the Bible says. So Better Shape up!
If you choose to reject it out of hand..there is nothing more to say . It speaks for itself- you don’t need me to convince you!
When you observe its fulfillment …. you may have to reconsider rather quickly!
.

Posted by Kristin | Report as abusive

so I guess FAITH WORLD is also liberal media, why else would you not print my post

Dominick Villapiano

Noah
This might come as shock to you but GOD aint bothered enough to prove Himself to arrogant mockers of The Word he has put out.
Fewer will make it to the Kingdom than those who will not. God is selective! He rewards faith!
God is Sovereign and your adolescent philosophies are an insult to His supreme intelligence !
Take that Atheists!

Posted by Angel | Report as abusive

Dominick Villapiano, you wrote: “so I guess FAITH WORLD is also liberal media, why else would you not print my post.”

I don’t know which post you are referring to since I have not seen it and it’s not in our system any longer. We have several editors around the world who monitor comments before they are posted. If you sent a comment that we would consider inappropriate, one of them may have deleted it. We do not want comments that are obscene, irrelevant, incomprehensible, commercial or overly polemical. Your comment may have fallen into one or more of those categories. Please feel free to resubmit your comments minus any passages that might clash with those categories.

Angel.

You are implying motives into your god. You claim to know that he wouldn’t bother proving to humanity that he exists. You are in effect dictating what your god does and how he thinks and feels. Without any evidence too, I might add.

That seems a bit arrogant to me. If there is a god, he will probably punish you for second guessing his actions. You’d better prepare for your next confessional.

Oh, and you also have no proof that anything you said is actually true. Sorry, but it needs to be said.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

>> 1] (including many which engage with their believers on
>> personal terms just as yours does).
>
> Reply:
> I have yet to hear of one !

Have you looked? There are many religions which provide for direct, personal contact with their god(s) through prayer, and those prayers are directly answered. But of course, none of this has any bearing on the likelihood of those god(s) to actually exist, so this is a distraction away from my original question.

>> 2] And explain why your holy text is more likely to
>> have been divinely inspired than all the others.
>
> Reply:
> No self proclaimed prophet could have recorded the
> events that have have been fulfilled exactly in
> accordance with the Bible’s predictions.

Ah, yes, now this answers my original question. Yes, the Bible does have some very compelling prophecies. Likewise, the Qur’an, Talmud, Chen, Abdu’l-Bahá, and Bundahishn (to name only a few) have some very compelling prophecies which you might find interesting. The followers of each of these books point to current events as evidence that their prophecies are coming true. The previous generation of their followers did the same thing, as did the generation before that, and the one before that, going all the way back to the inception of their religion. This seems to be kind of a perennial tradition among many religions, particularly the apocalyptic ones, and including Christianity of course.

All of these religions make a compelling case for their own holy text’s prophecies coming true (including many end-of-days prophecies) — and most have a recipe for salvation that you absolutely must follow if you wish to reach a good end. So, how shall I choose? I can’t follow them all (or even a few), because they mostly all contradict one another.

Posted by Damon Hastings | Report as abusive

I sent it twice and twice it said it was in moderation.
So if it was an ancient I publicly apologize……and will continue to post.
thank you for replying
Dominick from WSOPNE.org

Noah:
Confessionals are for the relgious ritual worshippers -nothing to do with GOD, or me, or what I said!
God is not a religion. He is a Divine Being with a Personal touch . He certainly will not prove Himself in ways dictated by any man! Count on it!
You have noah idea ‘cos you aint read the Book or approached its Author!

Posted by Angel | Report as abusive

Angel.

How do you know what a god will or will not do, or how he may think? That is a very arrogant thing to say. And claiming to know gods will is a sin.

And what makes you think I have not read the bible? As a child, I used to read it cover to cover. It even had nice paintings in it (being the child edition), to show what was happening.

The pictures in that bible were professional oil paintings. In retrospect, most of the pictures were not really suitable for children (eg, Herold’s soldiers impaling children with daggers, a woman being stoned to death by men and boys, King David perving on Bathsheba while she was naked, ect).

In fact, I would almost go so far as saying the bible was one of my favorite fairytale books. But unfortunately, you eventually grow out of fairytales.

And it might as well be repeated. You have provided no proof that anything you said is actually true. Please provide this proof.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

I’m done here. I know God ! He knows me.
We have a relationship! End of!
He inspires what I know and what I post here.
Arrogance does not come into it
I speak as an Ambassador of Christ- an office He bestows on all those who are redeemed by HIM.
Many of us knew Bible stories but knowing the Word in depth is something else.

Posted by ANGEL | Report as abusive

The RELIGION of Humanism is taking over America and is displacing our cherished beliefs in God. It began in the schools, the homes, and now many Churches are regurgitating a watered down gospel, a powerless “seeker friendly” brand of RELIGION where man is no longer accountable to God for his actions. God exists, friends, and this pride-based, man exalting, humanistic, counterfeit is no match for El-Shaddai!

We are living at the end of time. The time to get to know God is NOW. I suggest that you get in touch with Dominick Villapiano on his evangelistic webblog. Do it. Now.

Posted by Jim Borge | Report as abusive

Noah, where do see that the Bible claiming to know the will of G-d is a sin?
Show me

Now if Rueters will allow me , Noah, I will show what the Bible does say.

Ro 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

for starters
wsopne.org

If Rueters will also allow me
Noah Paul Goes on to also say

Eph 6:5-6
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
KJV

we will know G-ds will in our heart

Claiming to know the will of god as a sin. Right at the beginning.

Book of Job: Chapters 32-38.

Elihu speaks to Job about God. Elihu claims to know everything about what God does and why. He believes he can advise Job on God’s motives, why he does things, and what God will do in the future.

Come Chapter 38:2, God arrives on the scene from stage left. And what are his first words?

“Who is this who darkens my counsel with words to which he has no knowledge?”

Consider yourself schooled in bible by an athiest.

You, Mr Angel, are no more then an Elihu. And both athiests and theists should be on their guard when they listen to your words.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

Ok Noah,
What was his counsel to Job?
to go ahead and curse G-d,
Now was that G-d counsel or Satan’s?

Mt 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
KJV

when they get out side of the word, you need to walk away.
But Noah , this not your issue with G-d is it?
email me and tell what the real issue is?

Why are you threatened by the word of G-d. Wouldn’t it be nice to that he loves and wants you to spend eternity with Him. Where is your hope in life?
Just to be put in the ground
Noah that’s not much of a life. God is real and he is calling you, nothing to threatened by.
I never new him to eat anybody…LOL
What are you afraid of?

There was no mention of Satan controlling Eliah. According to the bible, Eliah was simply a man who believed he knew everything. I am familiar with the passage. Are you?

Those who believe they know about God’s will and his decisions, claim to know things for which they cannot possibly have knowledge. The bible is clear on that. And for a person who obviously thinks the bible is fact, I am surprised you don’t also see this.

Regarding your other statements: What I or you may wish has no bearing as to what is true or not.

You may not like the idea that there may be nothing beyond death. But whether you like that idea or not, has no relevence to whether god exists or not. So asking me about what I desire after death is not only improper, but irrelevent to whether a god exists.

And you presume too much when you assume that I am afraid of faith. On the contrary. The fact is that I am willing to accept that I do not know the nature of the universe or how it was created. One who accepts his ignorance is not gripped by fear.

But you cannot accept the possibility that there may be no god, or that you cannot possibly know the nature of the universe. You fear the unknown, so you refuse to accept that the universe is unknown. You fear the concept of oblivion after death, so you refuse to believe there is true death.

So you attribute the universe to a cause for which you have no proof. You believe things which a human has no ability to know. And you claim things are true, when you have no evidence to show the truth of your claims.

That is the only issue here. The issue has nothing to do with me. Perhaps instead of looking at my fear, you should examine your own?

Do not expect further replies. I have said what I wish, and you have nothing to say that hasn’t already been said before.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

Noah
First, I was wrong about what He was telling Job, Its been a while since I been in Job, But I do have some things I want to show..I gotta run right now. be back in a couple hours

And the debate finally died.

Posted by Arkist | Report as abusive

Mr Noah!

You are speaking gross error and entirely out of context re your ill-informed and presumptuos remarks about the Book of JOB !
Allow ME to School YOU!
Elihu is criticised by God for his impertinent hypocrisy in attempting to correct Job who was a far more schooled, experienced and righteous man in the Sight of God than Elihu was !
Elihu was wrongly assuming that Job was guilty of some form of sinful conduct which had resulted in the adverse circumstances which had come upon Job.
Your lack of Scriptural knowledge is apparent in your grossly erronoeus interpretation of God’s rebuke to Elihu.
You have, in fact, committed the same presumtuous error as that committed by Elihu.
Job was a Godly, righteous man who knew God and who also knew God’s Will.
Elihu was neither. He was too full of his own importance which led him to take advantage of Job’s vulnerability as he underwent the test of his faith.
At the end of the Book of Job, Elihu et al escape God’s judgment for their ‘dark counsel’ and prideful presumptous attitudes towards Job ONLY because Job prayed for them!> I’ll pray for you Mr Noah!

Posted by Angel | Report as abusive

Noah! You are as presumptous and ignorant of the facts as was Elihu!
You are clearly commenting with very little knowledge of the Scriptures concerned!
Elihu was not rebuked for claiming to know the Will of God but for his vain mis-interpretation of it!
Just like you, he thought he knew it all,
but he was foolishly MISTAKEN!

Posted by Angela | Report as abusive

To Angel/Angela.

You are the one claiming to know about god’s will. You are the one claiming to know everything about the universe. You are the one claiming to know the motives behind why god does things.

All I did was point this out. And YOU accuse ME of being presumptuous?

I have little time for your hypocracy. Spend your words elsewhere. You are an elihu, and no better. And you obviously don’t like being told so.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive

Yes indeed! Noah Idea!
I claim to know all those things !
I support my claims with a correct interpretation of that section of the Bible which you vainly attempted to use as an affront to my faith .
By way of response, I have pointed out to you the error of your interpretation.
Your subsequent adolescent, verbal attack is indicative of your inability to concede defeat!

Posted by Angela | Report as abusive

[...]  Faith World, “No religion” segment of U.S. population profiled/Sept.23, [...]

oh angel, your version is not special.
interpretations are interpretations.

i wonder what denomination/sect you are.
many christians will disagree with you.
claims are not facts.

in case you forgot, “the” bible was revised and reinterpreted thousands of times. thus, numerous versions exist.

bottom line: everyone is misinterpreting “the” bible.

Posted by mythsRmyths | Report as abusive