“No religion” segment of U.S. population profiled
Email 
Print
At the “Values Voter Summit” of conservative Christian activists I attended last week in Washington, more than one participant lamented the “secularization” of America.
That will come as a surprise perhaps to more than one foreign reader of this blog, given America’s famously high rates of religiosity which set it apart from much of the rest of the developed world. And the evangelical tradition which much of the U.S. “religious right” comes from has been fast growing in recent decades.
But Americans who claim no religion are fast growing and Trinity College in Hartford offers a detailed portrait of this group in a new report released this week called “American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population.”
“The 1990s was the decade of the “secular boom.” Regarding the percentage of adult Americans who claim no religious affiliation, the researchers found that it had grown from 8.2 percent in 1990 to 14.2 percent in 2001 and to 15 percent in 2008. The growth of the Nones is a national phenomenon. They are the only group that increased in every state and region of the country during the past 18 years,” the report says.
“Who exactly are the Nones? “None” is not a movement, but a label for a diverse group of people who do not identify with any of the myriad of religious options in the American religious marketplace – the irreligious, the unreligious, the anti-religious, and the anti-clerical. Some believe in God; some do not. Some may participate occasionally in religious rituals; others never will. Nones are easily misunderstood. On the one hand, only a small minority are atheists. On the other hand, it is also not correct to describe them as “unchurched” or “unaffiliated” on the assumption that they are mainly theists and religious searchers who are temporarily between congregations. Yet another incorrect assumption is that large proportions of Nones are anti-rationalist proponents of New Age and supernatural ideas,” it says.
The report will no doubt be held up by conservative Christians — a key base for the Republican Party — as further evidence of the country’s cultural slide since the permissive 1960s and the end of school prayer. The neo-atheist movement on the other hand will probably say it attests to their growing popularity (even if outright atheists are only a minority of Nones).
The report is drawn from the massive American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), which questioned 54,461 adults in either English or Spanish between February and November 2008. Its main findings were released in March.
Here are some highlights of this report:
* The “None” numbers — 34 million American adults — far exceed the combined total of all the non-Christian religious groups in the United States.
* Whereas Nones are presently 15 percent of the total adult U.S. population, 22 percent of Americans aged 18-29 years self-identify as Nones.
* Regarding belief in the divine, most Nones are neither atheists nor theists but rather agnostics and deists (59 percent) and perhaps best described as skeptics.
* The most significant difference between the religious and non-religious populations is a gender gap: Whereas 19 percent of American men are Nones only 12 percent of American women are Nones. The gender ratio among Nones is 60 males for every 40 females.
It is also interesting to note the political affiliation of Nones. Some observers of the U.S. political scene would no doubt regard “secular humanists” — many of whom would be classified as Nones — as a key base for the Democratic Party. Certainly many among the conservative Christian crowd I rubbed shoulders with last week would hold that point of view. But perhaps unsurprisingly the report says when it comes to partisan politics they tend to have an independent cast of mind: “Politically, 21 percent of the nation’s independents are Nones, as are 16 percent of Democrats and eight percent of Republicans. In 1990, 12 percent of independents were Nones, as were 6 percent of Democrats and 6 percent of Republicans.”
(PHOTO: The spire of Memorial Church rises above Harvard Yard at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts September 21, 2009. REUTERS/Brian Snyder (UNITED STATES)
Comments RSSPost Your Comment
-
Author Profile
-
The unbelieving element here who refer to God and His Word, the Bible, as bogus, fairy tale, wishful thinking, imagnation etc are at a disadvantage in their capacity to decide the issue!They do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and cannot clearly perceive the things of God . They do not have the knowledge of His Word so ask questions about resurrecting the dead, healing the sick etc which are addressed in His Word.
To put yourself at such an unfair disadvantage is detrimental to you since your eternal welfare depends on the most important decision you will ever make which is whether to accept or reject God . Look up God for yourselves folks before you are confronted with HIM and He rejects you! Life is but a whisp of smoke and afterwards>>>well that depends on what you decide now.
Is God a fairy tale? If you think so, be prepared for your worst nightmare on the other side of the grave.
Is God Real? You bet He is ! Seek Him out and you will find your best and most beautiful dreams fulfilled – and more on the other side of the grave! Your choice! God will not force you. He is the Lover of your soul. Love is a two way thing! So God allows free will and freedom to choose but your choice determines your eternal destiny !
The miracle of the sun.
An event where a couple of people noticed the sun had a weird distortion to it. Most people panicked because they didn’t know why this was so.
Soon rumors started to spread that it was the end of days (which turned out to be wrong). Others claimed to have strange colours flashing in their eyes (because they were looking at the sun and harming their retinas, funny enough).
Others then started to say it was a divine occurrence. Before you know it, people swear that they heard from a friend that another person had bona fide visions of Mary would you believe. And the whole thing turns stupid.
Probable cause? Gee. Water vapor? Clouds? Smoke from a bushfire? Dust from North Africa? Who can say. All the event consisted of was distorted sunlight. And rumors of of other people having visions.
Proof of a god? Hardly. Just a bunch of Portuguese who started panicking because they didn’t know what was going on.
The event would only be proof of God if there was evidence God was the cause. So what proof is there that the event was caused by a god?
-The Pope said so? That isn’t evidence.
-People say it was a miracle? That’s just their opinion.
-People don’t know why it happened? That doesn’t mean a God did it. It just means you don’t know what happened.
As people do not know WHY the event happened, this means they can’t know a god was the cause. Meaning they can’t use the event as proof a god exists.
I’m still waiting for some scientific evidence about the existance of a god. Or just plain evidence. Anyone got any? Anything at all?
Remember, no biblespeak or assumptions please. Neither of those things are evidence. Because they assume what they are supposed to prove. And that just ain’t logical.
God is not in the business of entertaining folk with supernatural occurrences and visions of Mary etc.
Mary is just as dead as the rest and cannot appear until the Resurrection as depicted in Matthew chapter 24.
Such visitations and phenomena are not from GOD!
They belong to the weirdos, the cults and the pseudo religious establishment – fanatical seekers of vain experiences!
But GOD sure does miracles today ..you just don’t hear about them unless you are among a group of Bible believing born again people We don’t make a spectacle of Our God! He is too precious!! He reveals Himself only to those with a genuine seeking heart not to those who are looking for shallow experiences as proof of His existence . God does not need to prove Himself.
Oh really, Mona, all atheists should read the bible? And how many fundamentalists do you know who’ve read On the Origin of Species, Harry Potter, or the Da Vinci Code?
Is Harry Potter THE MESSIAH?
Garbage in Garbage out…………
WOSOPNE.org
Well Sheavsey, I guess it all comes down to how discerning is your taste in literature.
Give me The Bible every time!
I want be educated in the Truth as inspired by God,the Holy Spirit, rather than be influenced by the fanciful theories and dark imaginations of mere mortal man
Incidentally – Charles Darwin apologised towards the end of his life for leading people astray with his flawed geological conclusions based on that five year voyage on the Beagle. God has been around considerably longer!
I hope Charles Darwin was sorry enough to repent before God for so presumptuously challenging The Word of The Infinite Creator !
KristinSolo.
Why do you believe a god exists? What evidence can you point to that shows this to be true?
-The bible is not evidence of a god. Because it was written by man. How can something written by man be proof of a god?
-The existance of an eye is not evidence of a god. Eyes began as very single nerve endings to detect changes in light in simple organisms. Then they became more complex through natural selection and mutation. It took many years, and many eyes, before we reached the final product we use today as eyes. And no designer needs to be implied into the process.
-The existance of claimed “miracles” is not evidence of a god. Because the very definition of a miracle is that we do not know what caused it. How can a miracle be proof of anything, except that we don’t know what caused it?
-The existance of Earth is not proof of a god. Because even though the chances of a planet like Earth existing are incredibly small, it was guaranteed to happen somewhere in a universe where there is incredibly infinite space.
-The existance of a complex universe is not evidence of a god. Because complexity is only proof of complexity. Just because something is complex, doesn’t mean it is a design. Assuming something is a design cannot be used to prove the existance of a designer, because this is circular logic.
-The existance of a universe is not evidence of a god. Because even if the universe requires a cause, there is no evidence to indicate the cause is a god.
-And even if you believe a universe requires a god, then how was the creator created? Why is it you feel that the universe requires a cause, but not a creator? Why do you believe in something even more unlikely then a creatorless universe, the concept of a creatorless creator?
Consider all these things, and you will see that it is religion which is the product of fanciful theory and dark imagination.
The reality is that you believe something for which you have no actual grounds or evidence to believe. And unless you have actual proof, it is illogical to say that there is a god. Or that Athiests are incorrect.
That is the only objective truth here. Athiests are simply those who realise this truth. And reading a book that has been written and rewritten by many men will not change that truth. Not unless you are willing to believe something without actual proof or reason.
P.S- Darwin knew that his theory of evolution was only the beginning, and that further information would be discovered as time went on. At no point did he ever discount his theory as incorrect, only as incomplete. If you knew anything about his research, you would know this.
“Well Sheavsey, I guess it all comes down to how discerning is your taste in literature.
Give me The Bible every time!”
Yeah, those long chapters of names and lists of ways to punish women for menstruating the wrong way are real page turners..
“Incidentally – Charles Darwin apologised towards the end of his life for leading people astray with his flawed geological conclusions based on that five year voyage on the Beagle.Give me The Bible every time!”
It’s so charming that you believe things like this, regardless of whether they are even close to an accurate representation, and even more quaint that you think Darwin’s particular views somehow define the limits of science for all time.
Hey Drew – I was specifically addressing the comments re Darwin, Harry Potter and The Da Vinci Code – a commendable trio for promoting confusion, illusion and delusion!!! Science cannot disprove God -don’t ya know that by now? Nothing quaint friend about Facts but much folly re your negative comeback without checking out the validity of them ! Nothing quaint either about appreciating the profound truths of the Bible!
The aspects you mention depict that you have not even scratched the surface.
Whew! An unwise move to knock it before you know it!
You’re welcome to try it before you buy it HUH?!
No one’s forcing you. Your choice !
You won’t be able to say no-one told you though !
Quotes by Kristin Solo
“The unbelieving element here who refer to God and His Word, the Bible, as bogus, fairy tale, wishful thinking, imagnation etc are at a disadvantage in their capacity to decide the issue!They do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and cannot clearly perceive the things of God . They do not have the knowledge of His Word so ask questions about resurrecting the dead, healing the sick etc which are addressed in His Word.”
—-
Interesting, sitting smug yet?
I was all those things and probably still know much more than most so called, men of God preaching from pulpits of hypocrisy. Holy Spirit comes from the depth of one own divinity. All that is alive possesses same. Each their own spark, nurture as you please for all surely will. However this is not Christianity, or of Jesus. Not of any prophet, nor religion, it is simply ‘inherent’.
“To put yourself at such an unfair disadvantage is detrimental to you since your eternal welfare depends on the most important decision you will ever make which is whether to accept or reject God . Look up God for yourselves folks before you are confronted with HIM and He rejects you! Life is but a whisp of smoke and afterwards>>>well that depends on what you decide now.”
—-
Wrong, you speak not for God whatsoever!! You know not His mind or judgment. There is only one LAW, ‘balance’ and it needs no enforcement. It enforces itself.
“Is God a fairy tale? If you think so, be prepared for your worst nightmare on the other side of the grave.
Is God Real? You bet He is ! Seek Him out and you will find your best and most beautiful dreams fulfilled – and more on the other side of the grave! Your choice! God will not force you. He is the Lover of your soul. Love is a two way thing! So God allows free will and freedom to choose but your choice determines your eternal destiny !”
—-
Jesus is the FAIRY TALE. Too bad really so many believe to each their own detriment. Too bad so many umpteen millions encumbered with ‘soul slavery’ thinking saved by Jesus, Apollo or Allah or Krishna or anything else ‘outside your SELF’. Too bad, however you will have eons to figure it out for yourself.
You can look me up some eternity down the road, as I AM I, already ETERNAL.
Kind Regards,
Mr Joker/ Hahaha
Quote:
‘For most of his life Darwin was not an atheist, but a deist; that is he believed that a creator had designed the universe and set up natural laws according to which all of nature was unwaveringly governed. It was the pursuit of a man of science to discover the laws by which nature operated. He discussed his religious views in his autobiography (these appear, however, only in the 1958 edition by Nora Barlow with original omissions restored.)’
There are as many claims that Darwin apologised for misleading people with his theory as there are denials of the same !
I have addressed the rest of your questions in a previous post
re’
GOD COMMUNICATES WITH HIS PEOPLE’
THAT- is undeniable proof of God’s existence but it is not a proof which you can know or experience as an unbeliever because you are devoid of the Spirit of God.
However -God promises that He will make Himself known to All who seek Him with sincerity.
The Bible indicates that the things of God are spiritually discerned and cannot be understood by those who are not spiritually enlightened.
You can study and analyse every resource under the sun- and that may well point you in the right direction but you will not adequately prove that God exists until you approach Him in faith.
You can attempt to undermine, ridicule, mock and deny the faith of Born Again Believers but you cannot make the slightest impact in their conviction that God exists because – Not only do they know more about Him than you do, being well acqainted with His Word, as revealed in The Bible, but …THEY KNOW GOD HIMSELF!
How can anyone be so certain that their god is THE god? Even a Christian is an atheist when it comes to believing in Zeus, Odin, or Brahma. None of us are arguing for the existence of the pagan pantheon, but this Yahweh guy, he’s the real deal! Again, how can you be so sure, when so many other gods throughout history have been pushed to the wayside? What makes the god of the Jews different from the gods of the Romans?
Dear Anon,
Did you just quote fact or theory? I think theory.
Define theory = An unproven conjecture; An expectation of what should happen, barring unforeseen circumstances;(sciences) A coherent statement or set of statements that attempts to explain observed phenomena.
Using probability theory, calculate the probability of getting totals of 2,3,4 .. 12 when throwing two six-sided dice.
There goes the probability theory!
The difference between your theories and my facts is that I do not need to prove the bible it proves itself.
The Bible never states any theories! It states facts by two or more wittnesses,acutally hundreds testified to witnessing many of the bible events. You can not discredit something unless you have fact to back up your statement.
God said he created the heavens and earth,to include man,everything under the water,animals, and creepy crawley things. He never once said in theory I created the heavens and earth.
You can’t discredit the bible history no more than I can regarding our own history in America, And, since we weren’t there in the beginning of either history I am just going to have to take his word for it. On the other hand, you keep believeing in theories.
Have a good day Anon!
BIGBANG is Wrong
Recently, I was watching on TV a Britain lecturing on bigbang, at the end of the talk one man stood up questioned him- what was there a minute before bigbang? The speaker didn’t have an answer. Then, OUR universe is expanding, they say. Agreed but into what? Is it encroaching upon the adjascent universes already in situ all around it. Don’t get me wrong, I read and learn from recent publications, especially astrophysics, with genuine almost childish enthusiasm. We are still stuck with a probe to poor demoted pluto (it takes few more yrs to reach it), at this rate when are we going to probe outside our milkyway galaxy? Religion or not our earthly existence is thoroughly entwined with creation.
Point is physics is already there and we are rediscovering it piecemeal, not creating it. Once we realize that the creation is infinite/ unlimited, then physics that we mastered/ will master has problems to remain on solid ground. Part of the contingency that scripted Vedas/upanishads was comprised of research scholars and werent pragmatic religionists. The clarity is unmistakable- brahma/ almighty/ supreme power/god/holy father etc, which is formless, genderless, infinite in size and age concept was available for the consumption of all humanity. Nextly, in this backdrop the humanity is cautioned not to harbor any superstitions and thoroughly avoid pursuing simple carnal pleasures etc. and encouraged instead to view the earthly journey in the context of infinite creation/ creator. In these scriptures, there is also an assertion of oneness in both creation and creator- coined Monistic or advaitic philosophy. These concepts are hard to understand leave alone accepting them, just as is the case with advanced physics. A certain mental software is a prerequisite to first understand then to find out solutions to these complex cosmic problems.
One should liberate oneself from the limitations imposed on human mind by restrictive religious doctrines. Religions are great in terms of giving a precept like dont lie, dont steal and the like, however one needsenjoy freedom to question the ‘meaning of it all’. Upanisads, written in sanskrit, offer a base working model to continue work and to uplift the contemporary humanitys acess to creator. Understand – just as the dinosaurs disappeared, human race is bound to face same extinction give or take a few milllion years. Sounds helpless and hopeless. Agree. The collective intelligence of human race from its inception till its demise cannot figure out the secrets of creation or creator. Its a different matter the search should continue.With advanced gadgets the astrophysicists will confirm the millennia old findings of vedic spiritual scientists, which is ‘this creation creator is infinite in both time and space’. Bigbang evaporates in a second. Does it not make dharma based vedic scholars bond with atheists/agnostics. What is certain though is they are angering the abrahamic religionists.
Probability is not a theory. It is a mathamatical fact. I fear you simply didn’t properly read or understand the thought experiment.
In an incredibly large space, the chances of an unlikely event occuring is almost guaranteed to occur at least once. If you do not understand this, then it is because you do not understand probability.
Regarding your other remarks, please stop focusing on my position, and whether it is fact or theory. This is incorrect. My position is not the issue here.
The focus is on *your* position. You are the one who asserts that a god exists. Hence you are the one who has the burden of proving this assertion.
And yet you claim the bible makes no assertion? I agree. The bible never made the assertion. You did, when you claim the bible is true. If you claim the bible is true, you also claim a god exists. Which means you must prove these things.
The bible is hearsay. It is a document written by man. It has been edited and censored by various people. None of it’s *supernatural* claims can be verified. As probative evidence, it is worthless.
I will state it simply:
-You say the bible proves the existance of a god.
-This means you are assuming the bible is true.
-The truth of the bible has not been proven.
-So your logic is flawed.
Essentially you are saying “God exists, because the bible is true”. Don’t you see the lack of logic in your statement?
Please look up the definition of “circular logic” and present some different evidence. Scientific or actual. No more bible please.
Kristin Solo
You have been asked to provide scientific evidence, or actual evidence, that a god exists. You have failed to provide this evidence.
Hence it must be concluded that you believe something for which you have no reason or evidence to believe. And that means your assertions, all of them, can be dismissed as groundless.
You can believe anything you want. But just because you believe something, does not make it true. And just because you say something, does not make it true.
The truth is something which is proven by facts and evidence. You have neither facts or evidence. Hence, this means you cannot have truth either.
Mona. There are two uses for the word ‘theory’ as defined by the dictionary.
The non-technical term for theory is “a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural”.
Example: “The belief in a god is a groundless theory.”
The technical term for theory used in science is “a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena”
Example: “The theory of evolution is a cohesive explaination for current scientific observations on the development of life”
Please be more careful about how you use such words in the future.
HEY Hahaha !
Read My post again . God exists! I have MY Proof.
The Bible was written by men inspired by The Holy Spirit .
The ancient gods of the empires of Assyria Babylon Persia Egypt and Rome and their many derivatives that exist today are mentioned in the Bible as the opposition to YAHWEH the One true God.
Those idols and icons of wood, stone, gold, silver, iron, brass and glass cannot communicate with you as GOD does! There’s no proof in them.
Here endeth the debate – I dont do endless repetitions.
Have a good journey through Life. Sorry I won’t see you at the end of it !
You don’t do repetition? More like you don’t do proof.
Your posts have two arguments for why a god exists:
-”Because I say the bible is true, it is true”
-”Because I say a god exists, he exists”
Both of these arguments are not logical. Meaning that your belief is not logical. And when you repeat your arguments, you are repeat illogical arguments.
You say the bible was written by people inspired by the holy spirit. How do you know this was the case? Where is your evidence?
You say the bible is true and this proves god. How do you know the bible is true? Where is your evidence?
You say you have the holy spirit and this proves god. How do you know this? Where is your evidence? Can you prove it? How do we know you are not a liar? Or deluded? Or mentally unstable?
You need to learn something important. Just because you say something is true, does not make it true. And just because you believe something is true, does not make it true.
Provide evidence. Or you lose the debate. If you have any real faith in a god, you will defend it now.
You sure are a hard headed guy Mr Hahaha. with a self descriptive name!
Mrs Solo has told you what the proof is, so quit repeating the same questions and arguements and consider using that hard head of yours to check it out for yourself !
Currently , You don’t have the Holy Ghost , Jokerman, so the joke’s on you!
The Bible was NOT written by Men!
It was written by ‘ Men moved by the Holy Ghost ‘ and is therefore inspired by God!
Major Difference!
God is no dumb, lifeless idol !
He communicates with Mankind !
He acts in the affairs of this World which is currently on a collision course with The Wrath of God !
So unless you got the ticket out – Expect it to be a rough ride ahead!
To Hahaha
In your self imposed ignorance you resort to vain implications of possible lies or delusion in those who claim to know God, to hear from God and who accept that the Bible speaks truth when it claims to be the inspired Word of God – proven in personal experience !
Enough has been said to defend Faith in the Living God and the reality of a relationship with Him.
In the last analysis it’s a personal issue.
You either got it or you aint . Nobody who has got it is threatend by your denials. They do not need to keep proving what they know to be REAL for the benefit of the everlasting doubters who will crowd the wide road to destruction all the way to Hell -as predicted in the Bible!
You want more Mr Hahaha?
OK here’s a repetition for ya!
You can study and analyse every resource under the sun- and that may well point you in the right direction but you will not adequately prove that God exists until you approach Him in faith.
You can attempt to undermine, ridicule, mock and deny the faith of Born Again Believers but you cannot make the slightest impact in their conviction that God exists because – Not only do they know more about Him than you do, being well acqainted with His Word, as revealed in The Bible, but … THEY KNOW GOD HIMSELF
PS:
I may ‘lose the debate’ by your flawed definition…
But I won’t lose my Soul!
You will be the Loser there – big time
The bible was a book. Written by man. That is a fact we can all agree on.
But do you have any evidence the bible is true? Do you have evidence that it was inspired by a deity? If not, then your “proof” is no evidence at all.
If you cannot prove these things, then you cannot use the bible to prove the existance of a god. This is simple and logical. But you seem to have trouble accepting this.
If you cannot provide proof, you lose the debate. Not in a “flawed” way. But in every way. Because you have made an assertion you cannot prove. And when confronted with this, you retreat and refuse to justify yourself.
You cannot say “The bible is true, because it is true”. Because that is illogical.
If I repeat my statements and questions, it is because you are being evasive in your answers. I ask you for proof, and you refuse to provide it. I confront you with statements which you refuse to address. You call things evidence, when it is not evidence.
I fear this is because you *cannot* provide proof. And you know it, but do not want to admit it.
You claim that you cannot prove that a god exists without having faith. Well you seem to have faith. So by your own admission, you can provide the proof that a god exists. So prove it please. Show it.
Or do you mean your faith is proof of god? I do not think you mean this. Because you know faith is belief. And belief is not evidence of anything, except that you believe something without evidence. It certainly does not prove there is a god.
You say you know there is a god. But you have no evidence to back up your faith. Which means you cannot possibly *know* there is a god. If you have no proof, how can you *know* something?
Which means when you claim to *know* there is a god, then you are the liar. Not me. And accusing me of lying is a sign of your dishonesty. Both to me, and possibly to yourself.
Unless you can provide evidence the bible is true, do not expect a further response from me. You are retreating to your circular logic, like all theists do when they find out they cannot justify their belief.
Kristin Solo , Hahaha, yakala
Refer to sanskrit scriptures written millennia ago. They have some baseline theories for the Einstein’s and astrophysicists to chew on. The creator and creation is one and same and that’s the Adwaita or monistic theory. The creator and creation is infinite in terms of age and size. Creation or brahma is amritam or immortal. They are throwing their hat in the arena challenging us, modernists, to disprove it. I agree they (Upanishads and Vedas) have no proof that creation ( brahma) is infinite. But its far more difficult proving that the creation is finite. Once you say infinite you are sitting pretty, you see, no one can demand proof because their excuse is since its infinite so they cannt reach the end.
Don’t dismiss it as imaginary metaphysics, if scientists reset their mind set to this effect, they may be able to steer their search in a different direction. In our limited time (human life in its entirety) on earth, which itself has a limited life in the solar system, we can fight all our short existence about god and end up without any agreement.
Here we are not asking the definition of god and religionists are not attempting that onerous task and are elusive. Are they talking about the same god (Brahma, Holy Father, and creator) who takes care of all the galaxies of universe or s/he is mostly handling the homo sapiense? If s/he undertakes the running of whole creation, s/he has no serious obligation to worry about the humans who are equal to amoebae or bacteria living in our guts. So, the religionists should climb down and say, look we are just trying to give a code of conduct thru religion and we also confess we don’t know anything about creator. Thats what was stated in an indirect manner in sanskrit scriptures. Instead, should they chose to proclaim to be custodians of heaven and hell, they are walking on thin ice and are pitifully diluting the application of religion to human life which is a mere rule book with lot of myth and lot of fanfare spiced into it.
This is pointless.
Why do you feel the need to turn this into a rational debate? Religion is not a rational debate that one can ‘lose’. Like many of the other faithful Christians on this comment board, I know that there is a God because it has been made manifest unto me through the power of the Holy Spirit.
But, you of course would argue, this is not proof enough – God does not necessarily exist simply because I say he does, which is absolutely true. The only person who can give you evidence of the existence of God is God himself, and nothing that either of us says will prove or disprove this.
See, I admit it: I *cannot* provide proof, but that doesn’t mean proof doesn’t exist, so quit barking up the wrong tree.
Hahaha and Kristin: I think you may be going around in circles because you’re using different definitions of proof. Hahaha seems to define proof in the conventional way: “evidence or reason which logically derives a conclusion from observations.” But under this definition, no aspect of reality can be proven; you can’t even prove to another person that you yourself exist. Only formal theorems (such as math) can be proven this way. Kristin, on the other hand, seems to define proof as an emotionally fulfilling explanation. Obviously her arguments are circular, but I don’t think she’s going for logical proof. She knows there is no logical proof of God; there are only personal, emotional, intimate proofs of God. There is direct knowledge of God through “touching” him, i.e. through revelation. Now, of course, the Christian, the Hindu, and the pantheist will all experience revelation in very different ways and will thus worship very different Creators (or no Creator at all). And each will call the others’ faiths false. And an external observer (such as myself) will find no logical reason to prefer one to the other. In fact, logic cannot possibly be the arbiter, because NONE of these faiths have anything to do with logic. Frankly, they have more to do with where a person grew up, and what they were taught as a child.
Hahaha: As a long time agnostic who enjoys starting spiritual debates, I can tell you that you’ll never get anywhere by debating proofs of God or the Bible. Christians have been having that debate all their lives, and they already have answers to every challenge. It’s their comfort zone, and you’ll never dislodge them.
I’ve found that I get far better traction by asking the simple question: “Even if I were to choose a religion, what makes Christianity more true than the next one?” That word “true” is critical. Do not replace it with “better than” or “different from”. The Christian will have many reasons why their religion is “better” than others (i.e. it offers better benefits, such as a personal savior), but they will be hard-pressed to show that their belief is more *true* than that of the next religion. If they say the Bible was divinely inspired, don’t directly challenge the notion of divine inspiration. Merely point out that the Qur’an, the Talmud, and the Bhagavad Gita were also divinely inspired, that they all have completely different (and contradictory) recipes for salvation, and that they all seem to have equal claims to truth. For every Christian argument they make, it is trivial to counter with the equivalent argument from any of a thousand competing religions. Don’t say that all religious arguments are nonsense; say that they all seem to have equal claim to truth. And if someone asks why you’re so hung up on this truth thing, then say “Well, I just feel like it would be disingenuous to join a religion without really believing in it, and to believe is to ascribe truth.” Ultimately, Christians believe religious truth comes from direct revelation (prayer, etc.) So if they say, “well, you just have to pray on it, to contact Jesus directly”, then you can say, “That’s funny, my Hindu friend said the same thing about Ganesh the other day.” But whatever you do, do NOT say “prayer is bunk.” They’re expecting that, and they have an answer (many answers, in fact). Never directly challenge the notion of faith. Rather, play one faith against another. It’s like judo. And don’t worry about trying to make the point that all religions are false; rather, say that they all have equal claim to truth (which is essentially the same thing, but is a more defensible position.) But the point is to remain open-minded, and never directly challenge anyone’s right to have faith.
Through this non-confrontational approach, I’ve actually had more than one Christian say “Well, I can’t really say with absolute certainty that all those other religions are false”, and then when I define “agnosticism” for them, they conclude that they must be agnostic. Because, and make no mistake on this — Christianity CANNOT be true without most other religions being false. The Bible directly and substantially contradicts almost all other holy books. It agrees with some (but not all) of those books on the existence of a single, primordial Creator god, but it differs substantially from those books on just about everything else — including the fundamental nature of that God and what He wants from us (or even that He is capable of wanting). Most religions don’t even have anything resembling the Christian notions of Heaven and Hell, much less Judgement. And finally, the Bible directly quotes Jesus himself claiming that you can only reach Heaven through Jesus. So the notion that a Christian can admit the possible truth of other religions is false. And that is the weakness of their position: they could no more disprove another religion than they could disprove their own. They’re not trained to disprove faith. You’ll notice that although I’ve asked many times on this forum what makes Christianity more true than other religions, no one has ever answered. They much prefer to answer your more direct challenges against faith in general, so that they may continue to hide under the unspoken assumption that faith = Christianity.
Real Christians such as myself and the other worthy writers here can explain to you in much detail why we believe in The God of The Bible as opposed to no god or to the man manufactured gods which cannot engage with you on any personal terms!
But definitive proof can only be given to you by GOD ALONE .
One encounter with Him and you will forget all your wordy verbal elaborations re trying to explain Him away!
God : a being who’s only defenition is that he cannot be understood. –Ayn Rand
That might sound impressive to some taude,
but it is nothing but presumptuous conjecture enclosed in glaring error !
KristinSolo wrote: “Real Christians such as myself and the other worthy writers here can explain to you in much detail why we believe in The God of The Bible as opposed to no god or to the man manufactured gods which cannot engage with you on any personal terms!”
Please do. Pretend that someone who has never heard of any god has just been presented with thousands of gods to choose from, including yours. Explain to this person exactly why your God is more likely to exist than any of these others (including many which engage with their believers on personal terms just as yours does). And explain why your holy text is more likely to have been divinely inspired than all the others.
To those who don’t like the God of the Universe telling them what do do, I say, every law of man came by the 10 commandment’s, before God gave them to Moses in the form of a stone tablet, He gave in to men in their hearts. Those who don’t like them would like them to go away, that way they can date their own sex, kill babies without reguard that only life grow’s not none beings, never heard of sperm and a egg creating a clump of anything that wouldn’t grow, even germs and mole, grows because it is alive. Can’t do what ever you want and even when you fight it, you know in your heart, your wrong, or there is no right or wrong? Isn’t that really the reason you put up such foolish comment’s that you think is knowledge?
If the world was here a million years ago, we would have been 480 miles closer to the sun, what could live? What would grow? And since the water would boil, nothing could have come out of it, it would have been sterile, have many more proof’s if need be but, hope you will give this one some thought? That is real science, proven the sun shirk’s at 2 1/2 to 3 feet per year, also
disputes Global warming. That is a scientific fact, proven by phyistist.
If a theist is going to make an assertion that a god exists, or that the bible was true, or that the bible was written by divine inspiration, that is fine.
But then when they are confronted and asked to prove their claims, they start complaining about it.
Confronted with logical arguments and questions they cannot answer, they retreat into circular reasoning. And when you poke them mercilessly about it, they just repeat their circular reasoning over and over.
Perhaps they think repeating something is proof it is true? Who can say? I certainly don’t think so.
To all theists, I say this:
If you don’t like being confronted about the assertions you decide to make, then don’t make them in the first place.
Just say that your faith is not based on logic, reason or evidence, and leave it at that. Accept that your faith is groundless. It doesn’t mean you have to cast it away. Just that there is no objective reason to have it.
But don’t go around claiming that a god exists, and that you are correct, and then start complaining when someone takes you to task.
Or go to your local priest and ask him for help. Perhaps he can provide you the evidence which you seem unable to provide to me? If he does, let me know.
Thought experiment (Just for a bit of Atheist fun):
-Imagine for a second that there is a God.
-And that he is all powerful.
-Logically, this would mean that no scientific evidence could be used to prove his existance.
-Because all things, including evidence, could be manipulated by him to mean whatever he wants.
-Logically, this means the only person who can prove God exists, is God.
-That means that the person who has the onus of proving God exists, is God.
-There is no evidence in this universe that God exists.
-God has not met the onus of proving to us that he does, in fact, exist.
-Meaning that even if a God exists, there is no reason to believe he exists.
In conclusion, even if God does exist, he has not met the onus of proving his own existance. Which means there is no reason to believe he exists, whether he exists or not.
Take that, theists!
Well, Angela, i am glad we agree on our beliefs on “god”.
Damon wrote:
1] (including many which engage with their believers on personal terms just as yours does).
Reply:
I have yet to hear of one !
2] And explain why your holy text is more likely to have been divinely inspired than all the others.
Reply:
No self proclaimed prophet could have recorded the events that have have been fulfilled exactly in accordance with the Bible’s predictions.
Nor could they have predicted what is currently happening in the World and the direction in which it will lead unless it had been revealed to them by God.
See for yourself by comparing the prophetic revelation of Daniel with The Revelation revealed to John .Both of these books were ‘sealed until the time of the end’
If you accept the challenge you will perceive that we are now in the time of the end!
Read also the prophecy of the imminent war of Gog Magog recorded in Ezekiel’ Prophecy chapters 38 and 39 .It will be fulfilled just around the corner.
This is serious information and it is Divine knowledge for our edification so that we are not caught unawares as the Bible says. So Better Shape up!
If you choose to reject it out of hand..there is nothing more to say . It speaks for itself- you don’t need me to convince you!
When you observe its fulfillment …. you may have to reconsider rather quickly!
.
so I guess FAITH WORLD is also liberal media, why else would you not print my post
Dominick Villapiano
Noah
This might come as shock to you but GOD aint bothered enough to prove Himself to arrogant mockers of The Word he has put out.
Fewer will make it to the Kingdom than those who will not. God is selective! He rewards faith!
God is Sovereign and your adolescent philosophies are an insult to His supreme intelligence !
Take that Atheists!
Dominick Villapiano, you wrote: “so I guess FAITH WORLD is also liberal media, why else would you not print my post.”
I don’t know which post you are referring to since I have not seen it and it’s not in our system any longer. We have several editors around the world who monitor comments before they are posted. If you sent a comment that we would consider inappropriate, one of them may have deleted it. We do not want comments that are obscene, irrelevant, incomprehensible, commercial or overly polemical. Your comment may have fallen into one or more of those categories. Please feel free to resubmit your comments minus any passages that might clash with those categories.
Angel.
You are implying motives into your god. You claim to know that he wouldn’t bother proving to humanity that he exists. You are in effect dictating what your god does and how he thinks and feels. Without any evidence too, I might add.
That seems a bit arrogant to me. If there is a god, he will probably punish you for second guessing his actions. You’d better prepare for your next confessional.
Oh, and you also have no proof that anything you said is actually true. Sorry, but it needs to be said.
>> 1] (including many which engage with their believers on
>> personal terms just as yours does).
>
> Reply:
> I have yet to hear of one !
Have you looked? There are many religions which provide for direct, personal contact with their god(s) through prayer, and those prayers are directly answered. But of course, none of this has any bearing on the likelihood of those god(s) to actually exist, so this is a distraction away from my original question.
>> 2] And explain why your holy text is more likely to
>> have been divinely inspired than all the others.
>
> Reply:
> No self proclaimed prophet could have recorded the
> events that have have been fulfilled exactly in
> accordance with the Bible’s predictions.
Ah, yes, now this answers my original question. Yes, the Bible does have some very compelling prophecies. Likewise, the Qur’an, Talmud, Chen, Abdu’l-Bahá, and Bundahishn (to name only a few) have some very compelling prophecies which you might find interesting. The followers of each of these books point to current events as evidence that their prophecies are coming true. The previous generation of their followers did the same thing, as did the generation before that, and the one before that, going all the way back to the inception of their religion. This seems to be kind of a perennial tradition among many religions, particularly the apocalyptic ones, and including Christianity of course.
All of these religions make a compelling case for their own holy text’s prophecies coming true (including many end-of-days prophecies) — and most have a recipe for salvation that you absolutely must follow if you wish to reach a good end. So, how shall I choose? I can’t follow them all (or even a few), because they mostly all contradict one another.
I sent it twice and twice it said it was in moderation.
So if it was an ancient I publicly apologize……and will continue to post.
thank you for replying
Dominick from WSOPNE.org
Noah:
Confessionals are for the relgious ritual worshippers -nothing to do with GOD, or me, or what I said!
God is not a religion. He is a Divine Being with a Personal touch . He certainly will not prove Himself in ways dictated by any man! Count on it!
You have noah idea ‘cos you aint read the Book or approached its Author!
Angel.
How do you know what a god will or will not do, or how he may think? That is a very arrogant thing to say. And claiming to know gods will is a sin.
And what makes you think I have not read the bible? As a child, I used to read it cover to cover. It even had nice paintings in it (being the child edition), to show what was happening.
The pictures in that bible were professional oil paintings. In retrospect, most of the pictures were not really suitable for children (eg, Herold’s soldiers impaling children with daggers, a woman being stoned to death by men and boys, King David perving on Bathsheba while she was naked, ect).
In fact, I would almost go so far as saying the bible was one of my favorite fairytale books. But unfortunately, you eventually grow out of fairytales.
And it might as well be repeated. You have provided no proof that anything you said is actually true. Please provide this proof.
I’m done here. I know God ! He knows me.
We have a relationship! End of!
He inspires what I know and what I post here.
Arrogance does not come into it
I speak as an Ambassador of Christ- an office He bestows on all those who are redeemed by HIM.
Many of us knew Bible stories but knowing the Word in depth is something else.
The RELIGION of Humanism is taking over America and is displacing our cherished beliefs in God. It began in the schools, the homes, and now many Churches are regurgitating a watered down gospel, a powerless “seeker friendly” brand of RELIGION where man is no longer accountable to God for his actions. God exists, friends, and this pride-based, man exalting, humanistic, counterfeit is no match for El-Shaddai!
We are living at the end of time. The time to get to know God is NOW. I suggest that you get in touch with Dominick Villapiano on his evangelistic webblog. Do it. Now.
Noah, where do see that the Bible claiming to know the will of G-d is a sin?
Show me
Now if Rueters will allow me , Noah, I will show what the Bible does say.
Ro 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV
for starters
wsopne.org
If Rueters will also allow me
Noah Paul Goes on to also say
Eph 6:5-6
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
KJV
we will know G-ds will in our heart
Claiming to know the will of god as a sin. Right at the beginning.
Book of Job: Chapters 32-38.
Elihu speaks to Job about God. Elihu claims to know everything about what God does and why. He believes he can advise Job on God’s motives, why he does things, and what God will do in the future.
Come Chapter 38:2, God arrives on the scene from stage left. And what are his first words?
“Who is this who darkens my counsel with words to which he has no knowledge?”
Consider yourself schooled in bible by an athiest.
You, Mr Angel, are no more then an Elihu. And both athiests and theists should be on their guard when they listen to your words.