FaithWorld

A new taint on the Shroud of Turin?

October 6, 2009

shroud-faces

(Photo: An archive negative image of the Shroud of Turin (L) next to one created by Luigi Garlaschelli and released in Pavia, Italy, on 5 Oct 2009/Turin Diocese (L) and Luigi Garlaschelli (R)/Turin Diocese (L) and Luigi Garlaschelli)

Italian scientist Luigi Garlaschelli tells me he has been getting lots of hate mail as well as emails of support since our Oct 5 story that he had reproduced the Shroud of Turin with material available in the Middle Ages, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ’s burial cloth is a medieval fake.

Given the controversy that has surrounded the Shroud, particularly since the 1988 carbon dating tests, this was hardly a surprise. One of Christianity’s most disputed relics, it is locked away at Turin Cathedral in Italy and rarely exhibited. It was last on display in 2000 and is due to be shown again next year. The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith, but says it should be a powerful reminder of Christ’s passion.

Until now, scientists have been at a loss to explain how the eery image like a photographic negative of a crucified man was left on the cloth.  Garlaschelli, a professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, will present his findings at a conference in northern Italy this weekend.

shroud-bodies

(Photo: An archive negative image of the Shroud of Turin (L) in full length next to one created by Luigi Garlaschelli and released in Pavia, Italy, on 5 Oct 2009/Turin Diocese (L) and Luigi Garlaschelli (R)

No one expects this to be the last we hear of the Shroud. As Garlaschelli told me in our telephone interview, those who fervently believe the Shroud is real will continue to do so. Our main news website, www.reuters.com, gave a rough gauge of international interest in the Shroud in its “Most Popular” rankings. Over 24 hours after we ran the news, it was still the third most popular story out there, ahead of a host of important economic stories and the latest twists in the David Letterman sex scandal. That says something about how the Shroud still arouses passions — whether it is 2,000 years old or only 700.

What is your feeling on the Shroud and the controversy that has surrounded it. Does it make a difference to one’s faith if it is real or not?

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Comments
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Why not report that it was an atheist group who produced this velvet Elvis quality reproduction. Or that the carbon dating was from a repaired portion of the shroud.I have no idea whether it is real or not, but leave it to reuters to leave out all the factsthat don’t support their own biases.

Posted by Danielle | Report as abusive
 

No, Danielle, they’re just not reporting your biases.

Posted by cheese | Report as abusive
 

Testing and saying its a FAKE an atheist group. Testing and saying its FOR REAL a christian group. Does it really matter? Don’t we have more life issues to worry about? One thing is for sure. Christianity in western Europe has dropped dramatically in the past 40 years and secularism is rising quickly among the former believers. Within a generation or so this shroud of Turin will have very little interest.

 

Facts aren’t “biases,” “cheese”…facts are facts.Why isn’t anyone saying the obvious? Compare these two images… the modern copy is garish, lacking any gradations of tone… it’s completely inferior, especially when one contrasts the faces and the chest areas.

Posted by Jeff Messenger | Report as abusive
 

The shroud is simply a material object, which may or may not be the “real thing”. I suspect that it is not, but whether it is actually the burial shroud of Christ has no bearing on my faith. Are we like the disciple Thomas, that our faith depends on being able to physically touch, even indirectly, the crucified Christ?

Posted by Roger | Report as abusive
 

I can’t believe that there is anyone in the world who believes that the image on the right is anywhere near as realistic or compelling as the face on the Shroud of Turin. Isn’t there one journalist out there who has the guts to point out the obvious: that the recreation of the Shroud produced by Garlaschelli is vastly inferior in every detail to the cloth that is preserved in Turin, Italy? And will this experiment be analyzed in peer reviewed scientific journals? Or will the word of a man who did this for money provided by an atheist organization suffice?

Posted by Leonard | Report as abusive
 

The Italian group think that they may have been able to recreate the Shroud of Turin. Maybe they have? But, I’d love for them to try and recreate the coffee stained image of the Virgin Mary I personally have. A few photos of the image can be found here on Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/7690119@N03  /sets/72157617453203072/detail/

Posted by Dan | Report as abusive
 

The most important discrepency between the copy and the original is with the blood. There is no image under the blood, which means the blood got there first followed by the image. Logical if authentic, impossible if is art. The blood on the shroud is the exudate from actual wounds. It is not whole blood, but blood components such as bile, bilirubin, heme and serum. Much of the blood is post mortem, blood that flowed after death. A very high bilirubin content is consistent with a man undergoing severe stress. Just a few points the fake version seems to overlook.

 

The Italian group is NOT an atheist group, it is, as its name makes plain, a group that checks claims of the paranormal. I feel sorry for anyone whose faith is so insecure that they have to cling to tricks and hoaxes.

Posted by Ray Dobson | Report as abusive
 

That painting ressembles the Shroud like my painting of the Mona Lisa. It looks like an amateur contest winner. Now let’s see if they allow this copy to be examined by experts. Let’s see if the paint is strictly a surface phenomenon as is the Shroud. Let them examine the minute examination of the scourging that the Shroud successfully underwent. Let’s see if the image produces a 3 dimensional image like the Shroud.Me thinks that they will not allow a scientific look at their “Shroud.” It looks like a fake and will be shown to be one. There is a very great difference between an original and a fake. Their sin will find them out.

Posted by Charles | Report as abusive
 

Do a DNA test on the blood stains on the so called original shroud. Each human body has 46 chromosomes. 2 sex chromosomes, 1 from each human parent. If the blood was tested and found to have two sex chromosomes then Jesus was mortal not divine as christians want to believe. In other words then Joseph and Mary were his natural parents, not Mary and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)

 

Wow what a terrible copy, they have to be kidding.

Posted by Susan | Report as abusive
 

About Carbon Datingyou can take a piece of wood 25 years old, compress very hard in a dirt compact and fossilize that that piece of wood in seven days.and that piece of wood will carbon date thousands of years old.No validity in carbon dating at all.Dominick FromWorld School Of Prophecy & News EventsWSOPNE.org

 

I am really and truly sick of those who look for whatever excuse they can to deny the fact that God exists and he is real. This tops the cake with their asinine thinking of how the Shroud of Turin is fake because they were able to make a mockery [replica] of it. I hope that Italian scientist enjoys his 15 minutes of fame and the money he was paid to utter horrible blasphemies. I would not even be a bit surprised if he’s one of the scientists involved in making a body/clone for the Antichrist.I encourage anyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see with to get a copy of the book called “Antichrist: The Cloned Image of Jesus Christ” by Joye Jeffries Pugh. The book discusses the Shroud of Turin and the coming Cloned Antichrist. The greatest deception that the world has ever seen is coming.

 

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. (Matthew 12:38-42)AND AGAIN:But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ (Luke 16:31)FINALLY:”…Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” (Matthew 15:14)

Posted by dewman | Report as abusive
 

Nice fact, Dominick. But not relevent.It is true that a piece of wood can be compressed and fossilised to give the impression of any age when carbon tested.But this doesn’t mean carbon testing is flawed, only that it can be fooled with the right conditions.The cloth of the shroud is not wood, nor is it compressed or fossilised. It cannot be altered to change the age given by a carbon test. So the result of the test stand.Here are some more relevent facts:-There is no conclusive evidence the shroud is genuine.-It could be from any time, from any person.-This research proves that it was possible to create a fake shroud using the abilities of the day.-The carbon test indicates the shroud is a forgery.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive
 

This is not a COPY, but a proof of concept. This new shroud was done by scientists, not artists. – Using their techniques, an artist (or forger) could do a better, more realistic job.@ Dominic – You, sir, are fooling noone but yourself. Carbon dating’s flaws were first demonstrated by the scientific community. Show ANY reference for being able to truly fossilize wood in seven days. (you cannot.)

Posted by TJ | Report as abusive
 

“He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”For those who believe no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe no explanation will suffice.The reality of the Shroud isn’t the point. It has already proven to be authentic by a thousand “scientific” points of evidence. But those who are faithless will always attempt to ignore the facts in front of them. Let’s face it if the Resurrection were a lie the Apostles would never have given their lives no matter how stubborn they may have been. Yet the Jewish authorities denied the the fact of the empty tomb no matter how many miracles were performed in the name of the Risen Christ. A.J. West

 

Righto. False logic busting time. I love Faithworld blogs:1. “The image of the copy isn’t exactly the same as the original”Well, the image in the copy was of a different person, wasn’t it? And they were wearing a mask which was not as detailed as the original face. And the cloth isn’t several hundred years old, it was artificially aged. And it was a first attempt at making a copy.So yeah, there will be a lesser quality image. Big surprise.If the true shroud was made by a forger, trying to figure out how he is likely to have done it, and perfecting the process, might take a few goes.2. “Blood on the cloth came first, the image came second”Wow. So you are saying that if the shroud was fake, they would need to put blood on first. THEN create the image. How exactly would this be difficult?3. “Blood from the shroud had indicators of having been from a body, blah blah, bile, blah blah, bilirubin blah”.And that means what, exactly? That the blood on the shroud came from a dead body? Well that limits the culprit down to a billion suspects who died around or prior to 1300AD.4. “The (scientist/research team/fund-provider/reporter) that (produced/research/financed/reported) this project is Athiest.”You know why people don’t listen to comments like that? Because personal attacks are not relevent. Whether a person is athiest or not has no bearing on this project, or whether the actual shroud is a fake or not.5. “Insert barely coherent argument that fake will not provide a 3D image if checked”If you bother to read relevent articles, you would know the fake shroud was created by being held over a real face when the copy was made. So the image on the fake shroud will logically create a 3d face. Why people think this is an issue, who can say?

Posted by JoeyJoe | Report as abusive
 

While the “fake” shroud on the right has some striking simlilarities to the original, it looks like a cheap knock-off.I am not sure if the Shroud of Turin is real, but I am certainly sure that it wasn’t made the way the Italian scientist claims.

 

False logic busting time- addition6. “The bible says ……..”The bible is a book. Written by man. It has been edited and censored. It has been translated several times. There is no proof the supernatural events depicted in the bible is true, or that it was inspired by a deity in any way.So please do not quote anything from the bible. It is hearsay, and not proof of anything.And you waste forum space if you think the bible has any probative weight as to whether the shroud is genuine.

Posted by JoeyJoe | Report as abusive
 

I have always believed and continue to believe that the Shroud of Turin is real. It would not make any difference to my faith if the shroud were proven to be a medieval forgery. However, Garlaschelli has proven nothing with his laughable imitation. I know that my Redeemer lives. Nothing will ever change that for me.

Posted by Kathleen Hundt | Report as abusive
 

Now, one can look at Church and Rome who are good at washing sins, with sympathy. They themselves, now, need some washing as they advocated bigotry, slavery, racial discrimination, genocide, false theory of white superiority around the world for the sake of demeaning other religions, and increasing their fold, all in name of washing sins. I guess how many times they offer prayers of sin in a day than prayer of good in a day.

Posted by JC Moolah | Report as abusive
 

whether the shroud is real or fake will not add or subtract to my faith. let them keep arguing about shroud and not make us of their short time for vital things, i am not condemning those trying to prove that the shroud is true or false but i am saying you may waste your life trying to prove that God is not real because you cant see Him and because His ways are the ways of men. that will not do anything to God,s plan. whether the shroud exists or not God will always be God

 

Most christians on this forum that quote the bible and continually talk about God as if he is exclusive to them only, are probably christians who inherited their beliefs from their families through centuries of traditional indoctrination. From a young age told that this is what you are going to believe (thats all we have ever known) and this is what you are going to be, because mom and dad says so. For those few christians who found the belief through their own life experiences with an open mind to all and decided for themselves personally have more relevance then those that knew nothing else but christianity throughout their lives because thats all they were allowed to learn.The Pope is sitting on the fence and doesn’t even know if the Shroud is real or not. COME ON! They keep it locked away and its good business for tourism $$ for the church when its brought out. Remember the catholic church is about MONEY & POWER and controls the flock through FEAR & GUILT. Catholics believe the Pope is suppose to be Gods right hand man on earth and would get either a thumbs up or thumbs down from God himself whether the Shroud is real or not. Nothing! and how about the world wide sex abuse scandals that continually keep multiplying and now even in Vatican city Italy. Where is God and why is he allowing these terrible things to happen to our children within the catholic church? Thats not a loving God.We will never know for certain about the shroud. Ever! There will always be the believers and non believers. The Pope should be the deal breaker but its obvious he doens’t have as much clout with God as many catholics believe he does. If catholics believe men get a calling from God to become priests, why can’t God give the Pope who is chief CEO of the catholic church the same message about the shroud? No wonder catholicism in the western world is fading away.

 

NoahThe Test does NOT prove that the original shroud is a fake. Carbon testing is no more factual than the ghost meter made by science. It was a way to sell public on spending for science research.Here, for years science said, there was no evidence of a flood. Well they could not explain all the sea shells on top of the mountains. Science finally admitted that clams don’t climb, that there was in fact a flood. But it didn’t happen the way the Bible said.I’ll stick with what the word saysDominick fromWSOPNE.org

 

To Joey Joeyou know that is a cop out, how much Greek and Hebrew do you study?I do it on a daily basis, as a matter of fact, It blows most scholars away how close the English translation actually isThat is always a cop out, even true atheist language scholars will not argue with how close the English translations are.I wouldn’t go thereDominick fromWSOPNE.org

 

To charts 1Paul said Everyman was born with a measure of faithRomans 12:33 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.KJV

 

@ Dominick Villapiano”Here, for years science said, there was no evidence of a flood. Well they could not explain all the sea shells on top of the mountains.”Dominick. It may come as a shock to you, but the surface of the earth is made up of massive slabs of earth crust called “tectonic plates”.These plates grind together to cause earthquakes. Over millions of years, they were responsible for the creation of islands, volcanos and mountains.Many areas which were once sea floor, have eventually ended up as the tops of mountains due to being at the ridge of two tectonic plates. So clam fossils on mountains, if they do exist, would not be surprising.Basic geological theory, Dominick. The kind of things that are taught in high school.”The Test does NOT prove that the original shroud is a fake. Carbon testing is no more factual than the ghost meter made by science.”Radiocarbon dating is based on principles of physics. You equate it to a ghost meter, for reasons known only to yourself. Unless you have a specific reason dismissing it, it will be attributed to denial.If anyone wishes to educate themselves on what radiocarbon dating involves, see the following:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Radiocarbon_dating”you know that is a cop out”The only cop out here, Villapiano, is that the only evidence for your belief is a man-made book. Do you have any actual evidence that the man-made book is true?Please present this actual evidence. Take care. Any illogical arguments will be pointed out.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive
 

KJV: According the Bible, Paul never met or knew a man named Jesus (yeshua) We don’t even know if there was a man named Paul. The bible was written in Greek by unknown writers probably Goat and Sheep herders. Edited over and over to get their story right. Catholics believe Jesus lived between 6 BCE and 30 AD. Paul was born years after this supposed Jesus died. The bible writings say Paul saw Jesus as a vision only. Thats not very credible. You wouldn’t accept that as an answer in any other context or discussion of someone else. Paul and a few others started christianity to make a new religion to dist the Jews.

 

Well, it looks like Constantine can’t come to the rescue to save the shroud, as this 2000 year old house of cards comes crumbling down. I wonder what Marcion would do???

Posted by Jerome L. | Report as abusive
 

IMPORTANT: A couple, living I belieeve in Illinois or another mid-western state, despite a lack of formal training, were aware of a weaving technique used to restore cloth. It is a slow, expensive and tedious process, but IT WAS USED ON THE SHROUD many years ago AND on the very area chosen for the Carbon 14 dating, and is thought to be reason for the questionalbe results of the radiocarbon dating of a few yearss ago. If any reader can provide me with either the name of the couple or the term used to siscribe the process, I’d be grateful. Please e-mail me Thanks!

 

That reproduction is laughable. Look at how crude it is. The eyes are totally cockeyed.

Posted by Jeff Bagnell | Report as abusive
 

False Busting Time- Addition7. “The part of the shroud that was tested was subject to a restoration process centuries ago, which changed the carbon dating”The problem here is that the shroud was tested several times, on several dates, by several groups, with separate samples from the cloth.So the next excuse by theists is that *all* of the tests were flawed. And all used restored cloth (even though there is little evidence that was the case)So the Church goes “Oh, the reason all these tests failed is because the samples were all from recovered parts of the cloth. And no you can’t redo the tests with unaltered cloth from the shroud to prove us wrong”It looks as bad as it sounds.8. “The shroud was affected by atmosphere/fire/carbonmonoxide/handling/ poor storage.”Nice theory. But these excuses have either been discredited, or have little relevence to the actual science behind their claim.If anyone wants an interesting read:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioc arbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin#1 978:_the_creation_of_S.Tu.R.P.

Posted by Joeyjoe | Report as abusive
 

When someone makes a good or bad reproduction of a great painting,it does not prove or disprove the authenticity of the original, nor does it diminish its meaning.

Posted by A BL | Report as abusive
 

Chart 1that would be a great theory, but the sea shells are only found in the surface layers. IF the mountains were made the way you and science said, then are they not throughout the layers, and again, even science will tell now that the sea shells got there by flood……….I guess DR. Noah was a better scientist than we thought

 

People,Don’t you find It a little Ironic that people have men havespent their lives trying to disprove 5000 year old writings.Look at the millions of dollars, spent on science, to say finally, there was a flood, but it did not happen when the bible said it did.

 

Original has these qualities, does the fake have them.1. The image has no directionality: random, without pattern, and without direction on application, such as left-right, up-down, circular, ect.2. No outline. This means the bloodstains must be applied first, with no points of reference. There is no body image under the blood stains.3. No made with direct contact: Parts of the image had no direct contact with the cloth. The front and the back image are the same density ruling out pressure. No plateaus or saturation points4. It would have to be on the top 2-3 fibrils of a 100 fibril thread, as is on the original. These fibrils are 1/7th of a millimeter wide5. Be thermally stable, be chemically and water stable. Heat ruled out because scorch areas fluoresce and the body image does not6. No pigments or binders for pigments of any kind to a level of 2,000,000th of a gram. No pigments, stains, powders, dyes or painting media. No capillary flow, ruling out liquid movement.7. Contains 3-D imagery: Computers at Air Force Academy (VP-8 Image analyzer) for interpreting deep space satellite pictures can read data on it to create a recognizable human image with depth information. It is a true negative with details in the great extreme. Copies of the shroud using the most advanced modern techniques lack this data.8. Bloodstains must follow the natural flow of gravity in every instance, the natural hills and valleys of the body.Any takers on making an authentic copy like the original

Posted by Doug Peterson | Report as abusive
 

@ Dominick Villapiano”Don’t you find It a little Ironic that people have men have spent their lives trying to disprove 5000 year old writings.”No. This is about the shroud. Scientists have already proven the shroud is fake from radiocarbon dating. Now they are trying to find out how the fake was actually made. It is very interesting, don’t you agree?You know what the real irony is?You think scientists need to prove the bible is *false*. But you have not even proven the bible is *true* in the first place.”that would be a great theory, but the sea shells are only found in the surface layers. IF the mountains were made the way you and science said, then are they not throughout the layers”You seem to have difficulty understanding the concept of how mountains are formed. I am not sure if you actually went to high school or not, so I will provide the information to you.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountai n#Geology“and again, even science will tell now that the sea shells got there by flood”No scientist, ever, has concluded that a flood put sea shells on the tops of mountains. And if they did, it would not be based on scientific evidence.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive
 

Dominick,Are you sure you want to argue against rationality and science with a book? Spend your time in reinforcing your faith in the book than the time of others. When people will get fed up with science and rationality, they will come seeking your faith based messages. Till that time, develop your faith than developing faith of others. You have the faith in this Taurin and you believe it is true then why are you getting perturbed? The guys are not trying to prove that your faith is wrong. The guys are testing whether what guys like you are feeding to the world is worth eating or not. Don’t they have this right too?

Posted by Bunny | Report as abusive
 

Ms HeatherYOU BET YOUR LIFE!May I please have the honor?Where do you want to start?Dominick fromWSOPNE.org

 

Ms HeatherI have set of 1964 encyclopedias, 44 years old right?Would you like me to go down a little list of things, just a little list, only 5 or six pages of just titles, not including my study, of subjects that the bible has been saying happened, that in 1964 science did not, or could not have happened. And then I have a three page list of titles, on subjects, that science NOW SAYS did happen and growing. Ya me and “THAT JUST A BOOK” are ready. A better name for that book, “I Am Who I Am” or “My Jehovah” or “Abba Father”I do not argue, I prove?Dominick fromWSOPNE.org

 

Dominic: So why do you have a set of encylopedias if you don’t believe what is written in them? (LOL) Are there stories in the encyclopedias about talking snakes and talking donkeys, and jesus cursing a fig tree. Or Adam living to be 930 years old? Come on Dom, you were probably indoctrinated into this belief system like me and learned only one narrow minded view. Time you expanded your ability and knowledge and worked with people instead of conflicting with them. Organized religion is the great wall builder around people. Thats sad.The Pope doesn’t even know if the Shroud is real or not. UNBLIEVABLE!

 

1. last comments were to Bunny, not heather…Now to chat 1 you think this is a new between the Word and science, here read thisPaul told Timothy, don’t waste to much with those who are full of the world and themselves. They Have chose not believe. That Is your FREE WILL, you have exercised it, so why argue with me.I’m not picking on you, when you ask, I’ll show you the truth.1 Tim 6:19-2119 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.KJVDominick FromWSOPNE.org

 

Chart 1″talking snakes”……..ya some of that..LOLwhere would I ever find one? LOLDominick fromWSOPNE.org

 

I have a holy book that was written by God, not just inspired by him. In it, he says the Bible is a fake and that Dominick is a nerd. Can’t argue with revelation!

Posted by cheese | Report as abusive
 

Dominick: I have two friends who have snakes. Neither snake can talk? No matter how much we try, or how much we pray, they just won’t talk. I wonder how the one in the Bible talked? Snakes don’t have vocal chords…..but catholics believe it all!….UNBELIEVABLE!The Pope says he doesn’t know if the shroud is genuine or not. Doesn’t the Pope have communications with God? Isn’t he the representative for God on earth? Catholics are taught this. Something is wrong!

 

What if I change my first name to God or to Jesus or Allah? How will preacher like Dominik say that it is wrong? Will it be as simple as “Jesus you are wrong.” or “Allah you are wrong.”

Posted by Bunny | Report as abusive
 

It’s quite amusing to read some of the comments on here, discussions of the shroud’s authenticity need be only scientific in nature, since “authentic” really means only that we can date it definitely to the time of Jesus. Proof that it actually *is* the burial shroud of Jesus is well-nigh impossible. Such a leap would always be a leap of faith. The scientific study of the shroud has been to determine where and when and how it was made and many of these questions remain unanswered. Far too many atheists and skeptics simply take the scientific data they *like* and toss out everything else, without truly refuting or explaining it. Hardly good science. True shroud study requires being able to explain all the data that is found…most scientists have no issue at ALL with the radiocarbon dating for instance, and discounted many of the early “nutty” explanations for it that came out immediately after the results were given. However, we have considerable proof now that the dating was accurate *for the sample they had*, but the sampling was faulty. Multiple tests were done, but they were all on the same faulty sample, so equally inaccurate in terms of dating the entire shroud. The protocol agreed on (samples from multiple sites) was not followed so for now, all we know from the RC is that the shroud is considerably OLDER than what the labs found. This is backed up but the fact that the shroud proper has no vanillin, and no cotton, two things found in the sample used for dating.To say that this simplistic reproduction proves that that the shroud was a fake is absurd in the extremes, and ignores huge amounts of scientific data as to the nature of the image. Copies of the shroud are nothing new, we certainly can mimic the basic appearance of the shroud, but the description of this procedure makes it clear that these do not come even close to meeting the scientific understanding of the shroud that we have today. Lack of pigment on the linen, the superficiality, lack of direction, 3D encoding, the lack of image under the blood stains, etc. Also in 2004 a second image was found on the back of the shroud, equally superficial and yet totally in-line with the front image. One can only imagine the difficulty of creating such an image without using some substance that would bleed through the entire cloth (which we know it did not). There are far, far many more criteria that have to be met by a “fake” shroud than simple image production.

Posted by Mary Jo | Report as abusive
 

No scientist has any issue with the carbon dating. And according to this, the shroud was a fake.People have argued various reasons for why the dating was flawed, but none of these arguments are scientific or have been disproven.The only other thing that religious folk can say is that the sample was from the medieval ages, but not the shroud.This ignores the fact that:-Multiple samples were tested, using different science teams, at several different times over the decade.-There is no actual evidence that the tested samples were any different to the rest of the shroud.-The vatican has since refused to provide further samples for testing.The only issue now is discovering how the fake was made. Something which is both interesting and a puzzle worth solving.But just because we have not figured out how to make it yet, doesn’t negate the carbon evidence. As far as science is concerned, the shroud is fake. Because this is what the evidence has indicated.

Posted by Noah Idea | Report as abusive
 

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