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	<title>Comments on: Cash for clunkers datapoint of the day</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: benamery21</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8703</link>
		<dc:creator>benamery21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8703</guid>
		<description>HORRIBLE SUMMARY of the program.  The impression conveyed is NOT accurate.  YES, the most common specific model to specific model swap was F-150 for F-150, and yes, other truck for truck specific model deals were high on the list, HOWEVER, the appropriate conclusion to draw here is that the Category 2 truck market is concentrated in a few models, while the passenger car market is not.  Specific to Ford -- Fewer than 28% of the number of category 2 or 3 Ford trucks traded in (the F-150 is among these) were replaced overall by a a category 2 or 3 Ford truck.  This was a common trade-in (9.1% of all trade-ins), but they typically went with a lighter vehicle.  The percentage of category 2 or 3 trucks declined from 19% to 7%.  Note that 85% of trade-ins were category 1,2 or 3 trucks (only 15% passenger vehicles), but that 59% of new vehicles were passenger cars.  Most trade-ins were category 1 trucks (lighter than an F-150), and most of these people bought passenger cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HORRIBLE SUMMARY of the program.  The impression conveyed is NOT accurate.  YES, the most common specific model to specific model swap was F-150 for F-150, and yes, other truck for truck specific model deals were high on the list, HOWEVER, the appropriate conclusion to draw here is that the Category 2 truck market is concentrated in a few models, while the passenger car market is not.  Specific to Ford &#8212; Fewer than 28% of the number of category 2 or 3 Ford trucks traded in (the F-150 is among these) were replaced overall by a a category 2 or 3 Ford truck.  This was a common trade-in (9.1% of all trade-ins), but they typically went with a lighter vehicle.  The percentage of category 2 or 3 trucks declined from 19% to 7%.  Note that 85% of trade-ins were category 1,2 or 3 trucks (only 15% passenger vehicles), but that 59% of new vehicles were passenger cars.  Most trade-ins were category 1 trucks (lighter than an F-150), and most of these people bought passenger cars.</p>
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		<title>By: JLo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8610</link>
		<dc:creator>JLo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8610</guid>
		<description>Poor conclusion to grab headlines.  The F150 swaps were 1% of the total cars exchanged in the program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poor conclusion to grab headlines.  The F150 swaps were 1% of the total cars exchanged in the program.</p>
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		<title>By: whatthefacts</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8582</link>
		<dc:creator>whatthefacts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8582</guid>
		<description>&quot;An Indianapolis driver traded a 1985 Mercedes 190 that got 27 mpg&quot;
When it was brand new, maybe..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;An Indianapolis driver traded a 1985 Mercedes 190 that got 27 mpg&#8221;<br />
When it was brand new, maybe..</p>
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		<title>By: ignorancearbitrage</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8576</link>
		<dc:creator>ignorancearbitrage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8576</guid>
		<description>@ateamrules: Datapoints and anecdote aren&#039;t synonyms.  

Moreover, evaluating stimulus in terms of wealth is incorrect-- see &quot;liquidity trap&quot; or more broadly &quot;depression economics.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ateamrules: Datapoints and anecdote aren&#8217;t synonyms.  </p>
<p>Moreover, evaluating stimulus in terms of wealth is incorrect&#8211; see &#8220;liquidity trap&#8221; or more broadly &#8220;depression economics.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: drewbie</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8564</link>
		<dc:creator>drewbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8564</guid>
		<description>Eric, your numbers aren&#039;t right.  The 8200 isn&#039;t the total number of trade ins, it&#039;s the number of F-150s that were exchanged.  The 145 and 15 numbers make up a much smaller percentage of the trade ins than you calculate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, your numbers aren&#8217;t right.  The 8200 isn&#8217;t the total number of trade ins, it&#8217;s the number of F-150s that were exchanged.  The 145 and 15 numbers make up a much smaller percentage of the trade ins than you calculate.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil D</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8553</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8553</guid>
		<description>Hmmm.  Americans cheat on their taxes?  Who would have thought?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.  Americans cheat on their taxes?  Who would have thought?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8551</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8551</guid>
		<description>IMO this is the deal-with-the-devil that you make when you commit to such a large and hurried stimulus.

It&#039;s roughly analogous to the decision to go to war.  You should think long and hard before you do it, but once you&#039;re committed, you can&#039;t get squeamish at the inevitable atrocities.

These press inquiries are fine, and I&#039;m all for accountability. OTOH, if every 80 years or so we blow a few million on the way to saving the free world, I&#039;m ok with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO this is the deal-with-the-devil that you make when you commit to such a large and hurried stimulus.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s roughly analogous to the decision to go to war.  You should think long and hard before you do it, but once you&#8217;re committed, you can&#8217;t get squeamish at the inevitable atrocities.</p>
<p>These press inquiries are fine, and I&#8217;m all for accountability. OTOH, if every 80 years or so we blow a few million on the way to saving the free world, I&#8217;m ok with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lindauer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8546</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lindauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8546</guid>
		<description>145 of 8200 = 1.7%
15 of 8200 = 0.2%

I guess then another way to describe the exact same statistics would be to say:

&quot;Cash-for-clunkers has had a tremendously positive effect on energy consumption.  Stats show that over 98% of the trades have resulted in improved fuel efficiency.&quot;


I guess it just depends on whether you are a glass-is-2%-empty, or glass-is-98%-full type of person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>145 of 8200 = 1.7%<br />
15 of 8200 = 0.2%</p>
<p>I guess then another way to describe the exact same statistics would be to say:</p>
<p>&#8220;Cash-for-clunkers has had a tremendously positive effect on energy consumption.  Stats show that over 98% of the trades have resulted in improved fuel efficiency.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess it just depends on whether you are a glass-is-2%-empty, or glass-is-98%-full type of person.</p>
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		<title>By: ateamrules</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8542</link>
		<dc:creator>ateamrules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8542</guid>
		<description>I believe Felix called it a datapoint, for which &quot;anecdote&quot; could be called a synonym.

In any event, the program can hardly be called a success as either stimulus or for its environemntal benefits.

On the stimulus side, the feds paid people to destroy valuable assets (presumably most of these cars were worth more than nothing).  No matter how you look at it, this results in a net destruction of wealth.

On the environmental side, it is unlikely that even the 9 mpg improvement cited above has much net marginal impact.
Many of the people who purchased would have bought soon (let&#039;s say within a couple of years) anyways; they were largely middle class+ people replacing cars worth less than $4,500.  If the average improvement was actaully 9 mpg (far beyond the requirements for the program), it is impossible to suggest that it was CARS that convinced most of these people to choose more efficient cars.  They could have purchased much less efficient cars and still gotten the credit, so the program can hardly be credited with shifting people&#039;s decisions much on average.  The &quot;carbon savings&quot; would on average be due to the few hundred thousand more efficient cars being on the road for a couple of extra years.  This doesn&#039;t account for the carbon that was emitted producing all those new cars (i.e., would it have been better for those less efficient cars to keep running for their useful remaining lives than to emit carbon producing replacements early?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Felix called it a datapoint, for which &#8220;anecdote&#8221; could be called a synonym.</p>
<p>In any event, the program can hardly be called a success as either stimulus or for its environemntal benefits.</p>
<p>On the stimulus side, the feds paid people to destroy valuable assets (presumably most of these cars were worth more than nothing).  No matter how you look at it, this results in a net destruction of wealth.</p>
<p>On the environmental side, it is unlikely that even the 9 mpg improvement cited above has much net marginal impact.<br />
Many of the people who purchased would have bought soon (let&#8217;s say within a couple of years) anyways; they were largely middle class+ people replacing cars worth less than $4,500.  If the average improvement was actaully 9 mpg (far beyond the requirements for the program), it is impossible to suggest that it was CARS that convinced most of these people to choose more efficient cars.  They could have purchased much less efficient cars and still gotten the credit, so the program can hardly be credited with shifting people&#8217;s decisions much on average.  The &#8220;carbon savings&#8221; would on average be due to the few hundred thousand more efficient cars being on the road for a couple of extra years.  This doesn&#8217;t account for the carbon that was emitted producing all those new cars (i.e., would it have been better for those less efficient cars to keep running for their useful remaining lives than to emit carbon producing replacements early?).</p>
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		<title>By: ignorance arbitrage</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8541</link>
		<dc:creator>ignorance arbitrage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8541</guid>
		<description>I would add (pace the title) that this is less &quot;data&quot; than anecdote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add (pace the title) that this is less &#8220;data&#8221; than anecdote.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8540</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8540</guid>
		<description>Where did they get the data on gas mileage for the older cars.  Obviously, if they simply used the EPA estimates for the earlier models when they were new, they likely understate the benefits of the program.  The mileage data on older cars at www.fueleconomy.gov Your MPG seems to be based on uselessly small samples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where did they get the data on gas mileage for the older cars.  Obviously, if they simply used the EPA estimates for the earlier models when they were new, they likely understate the benefits of the program.  The mileage data on older cars at <a href='http://www.fueleconomy.gov'>http://www.fueleconomy.gov</a> Your MPG seems to be based on uselessly small samples.</p>
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		<title>By: ignorance arbitrage</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8539</link>
		<dc:creator>ignorance arbitrage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8539</guid>
		<description>I have to say this is a very strange post from Mr. Salmon-- basically cherry-picking his results in order to prove his biases.  As the first poster noted average fuel economy was 15.8 to 24.9.  I&#039;d also note (per his example) that an improvement from say 13 to 15 or 15 to 17 is, percentage-wise, a (roughly) 15% improvement.

I am very confused as to why he chooses to argue from anecdote when there are actual statistics available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say this is a very strange post from Mr. Salmon&#8211; basically cherry-picking his results in order to prove his biases.  As the first poster noted average fuel economy was 15.8 to 24.9.  I&#8217;d also note (per his example) that an improvement from say 13 to 15 or 15 to 17 is, percentage-wise, a (roughly) 15% improvement.</p>
<p>I am very confused as to why he chooses to argue from anecdote when there are actual statistics available.</p>
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		<title>By: zach</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8538</link>
		<dc:creator>zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8538</guid>
		<description>The program was miles ahead of the home buyer credit.  I say this as someone who could qualify for the home buyer credit and didn&#039;t qualify for cash for clunkers.

I&#039;m measuring cash for clunkers as a stimulus, not as a carbon reduction plan.  The money spent was far more stimulative in the case of clunkers than the new home credit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The program was miles ahead of the home buyer credit.  I say this as someone who could qualify for the home buyer credit and didn&#8217;t qualify for cash for clunkers.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m measuring cash for clunkers as a stimulus, not as a carbon reduction plan.  The money spent was far more stimulative in the case of clunkers than the new home credit.</p>
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		<title>By: econobiker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8536</link>
		<dc:creator>econobiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8536</guid>
		<description>And how about the 1998 Dodge Neon and 2008 Hyundai Accent which were traded in?  How did these slip by? These were on the PDF list provided from the CARS.GOV website of traded-in vehicles...


The 1998 Neon would have never gotten below 25mpg even with an automatic and it was not on the CARS list of approved trade ins.  The 2008 Hyundai Accent actually WAS on the CARS website of approved trade ins yet the EPA.GOV website showed it as getting 28mpg with an automatic transmission. And who would trade in a 2008 car anyhow as it would be worth at least $4500 on the market unless it was totally trashed out...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how about the 1998 Dodge Neon and 2008 Hyundai Accent which were traded in?  How did these slip by? These were on the PDF list provided from the CARS.GOV website of traded-in vehicles&#8230;</p>
<p>The 1998 Neon would have never gotten below 25mpg even with an automatic and it was not on the CARS list of approved trade ins.  The 2008 Hyundai Accent actually WAS on the CARS website of approved trade ins yet the EPA.GOV website showed it as getting 28mpg with an automatic transmission. And who would trade in a 2008 car anyhow as it would be worth at least $4500 on the market unless it was totally trashed out&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: pickandroll</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-8535</link>
		<dc:creator>pickandroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/11/09/cash-for-clunkers-datapoint-of-the-day/#comment-8535</guid>
		<description>The average mpg of the traded-in vehicles was 15.8, while the average for the new vehicles was 24.9.  Those don&#039;t seem like bad results for a program put togethe ron an expedited basis.  You are always going to get some bad results and loophole abuse with programs at the margins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The average mpg of the traded-in vehicles was 15.8, while the average for the new vehicles was 24.9.  Those don&#8217;t seem like bad results for a program put togethe ron an expedited basis.  You are always going to get some bad results and loophole abuse with programs at the margins.</p>
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