Comments on: The lies of bankers http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/ A slice of lime in the soda Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:05:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: Potatoe1 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12472 Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:02:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12472 So, what I’m hearing from the pro-bank crowd, is that it is OK to charge $30 for a $10 loan until friday?

As far as creditcards go, my GF had her rate raised to 27% for no reason at all. They even told her they had no reason to raise her rates, it was just a new policy they had. She has execellent credit and is never late on any payments. They have the right to raise rates for no reason. If I had a car or house loan, could they just raise my rates for no reason? I think it’s about time for some change.

Many people I know, who can afford it, are dumping their cards, I think the credit card companies are shooting themselves in the foot. The people who can pay for cards are dumping them, so only those who can’t afford to drop them are still using them. Those people will no doubt default as they shoulder the load of extra charges. I suspect that credit card companies will be a big story this coming year. I can’t wait to see what happens when we are asked to bail them out.

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By: Greycap http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12465 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:49:42 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12465 najdorf, I too like being subsidized by stupid people, but I am afraid I must reluctantly concede that I am better off paying the $8.95 a month.

Why, you ask? Well for one thing, there are externalities to ripping off stupid people that you have not considered. An obvious example is that the smart and prudent borrower who qualified for a prime mortgage at 80% loan to value now finds himself underwater because his stupid neighbors have foreclosed. More broadly, the parasites are in danger of killing the host; stupid people have now been ripped off so thoroughly that they have no money left to spend. That is now reducing aggregate demand – putting a damper on sales at your business “Smart Guys R Us.”

Another problem is that in many contexts your mighty brains are of no use. Odds are that you cannot actually understand your 30-page credit card agreement even if you think you can because it has been written by and for lawyers in language that has a recondite technical meaning (unless you happen to be one of these lawyers of course.) You can’t fix this by switching CC providers when all of them offer the same terms (or can change terms with negligible notice.)

Consider the clause described here: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/03/m ore-credit-card-company-chicanery-ban-on -universal-default-gutted.html. It runs: “Your account may be in default if any of the following applies: . . . we obtain information that causes us to believe that you may be unwilling or unable to pay your debts to us or to others on time.” Notice that it isn’t good enough just to be willing and able to pay all your debts on time; all the CC issuer needs to do is to interpret “information” such that they “believe” you are unwilling to pay a debt to someone somewhere on time, and they are free to cancel your card and demand immediate repayment, regardless of whether that happens to be convenient for your.

Overall, I just don’t think you should be so obsessed with ripping off stupid people. For a smart person, $8.95 just isn’t a big deal.

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By: jstaf http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12462 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 21:04:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12462 najdorf, the regulation that is needed is the proper balance of risk and liability involving extreme use of leverage and poor use of judgement that provides huge profits to bankers when the work and large costs to tax payer and even shareholders that see the common stock slaughtered as the C suite draws large bonuses.

Bankers made .42 of every dollar earned in this country in 2006, all due to unwise deregulation.

When the stakes are high enough, and the chance of success is good enough, all men are crooks.

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By: Greycap http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12460 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:31:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12460 It sounds to me like ruckandmaul had poor controls at his own institution. I mean, if you can find a broker to give you a 2-way indicative price, shouldn’t you be using whichever side matches your position?

However, as randolfduke remarks in the comment above, you are seldom given a 2-way OTC quote on the buy side. And it seems that ruckandmaul had a straight long position, so that he was getting a “favor.” The way I read the Lewis piece, Burry was saying that he was getting a high mark on the underlying because he had a short position and would thereby have to post more collateral – not a favor. The implication was that if he had been levered long, he would have got a low mark in order to extract more collateral. And no matter how heinous you think it is to give a 93 mark for an 89 bond, it has to be worse to give 93 to the shorts and 85 to the longs. Haircuts should be transparent, not rolled into the marks.

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By: najdorf http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12459 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:42:45 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12459 Sandrew: I sense a certain amount of sarcasm. The deal with the poor and financially illiterate is that you can’t regulate stupidity out of existence. Our current level of regulation does a great deal to protect people from their own stupidity and the exploitive goals of business. At some point when you’ve been told over and over again “You have $100 in your account. If you spend $120 you will pay a $30 fee”, it becomes your responsibility not to screw up.

There’s also an enormous amount of assistance to help people get out of poverty, but even if there weren’t I don’t think banking regulation is the place to try to help the poor. Help the poor with direct assistance, education, and help finding work. The alternative to overdraft fees isn’t a free lunch – it’s monthly fees on checking accounts. To the extent that this would deter the poor from getting a checking account, it would just make them more subject to the predations of payday lenders, check cashers, and other inefficient high-fee service providers.

A bank can provide these services for free to people who are able to use common sense and follow basic rules. If politicians want to provide more paternalistic regulation for the poor/stupid I would recommend they focus on denying credit cards to idiots with no money, since they cost a whole lot more than overdraft fees and are much more challenging to use responsibly.

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By: Sandrew http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12458 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 18:51:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12458 “I would much rather that other people pay for this service via disclosed fees for rule violations than that I pay via an $8.95 monthly fee.”

I appreciate your candor, najdorf. Too often we hear disingenuous arguments from the libertarian camp about how business must be giving customers what they want, otherwise they wouldn’t sign-up for “services” like platinum-clad (i.e. ridiculously expensive) overdraft protection. But I applaud your telling it like it is by thanking the poor and financially illiterate for subsidizing your free checking account (well, mostly free… your temporary lapse of “stupidity” notwithstanding).

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By: najdorf http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12456 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 18:14:14 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12456 It’s hard for me to muster a lot of sympathy for people who incur multiple overdraft charges. It’s very easy to know your balance and to only spend money that you have. If you need to spend money that you don’t have at the moment but will have soon, it’s very easy to get a credit card. If your mission is to systematically spend money you don’t have, well, you’re going to pay a lot of fees and interest.

Running a checking account involves costs. Someone has to pay these costs. I can go online and get a free checking account with Bank of America, which allows me to charge purchases to a debit card, earn rewards, pay bills and check balances online, and withdraw money at thousands of ATMs. They even give me money to sign up. I would much rather that other people pay for this service via disclosed fees for rule violations than that I pay via an $8.95 monthly fee.

Have I ever overdrafted? Sure – when I did something stupid. Stupidity has a cost. Punishment teaches lessons. Why should a bank pat you on the head and tell you that you’re a good person when you spend money you don’t have, in spite of numerous systems in place that allow you easily to avoid this error?

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By: dWj http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12454 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:53:34 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12454 That the large items are likely to be more important only makes sense if the banks are actually refusing the overdrawing checks; if they’re honoring the checks anyway, and simply tacking on a fee for each one that takes the balance below 0, it makes no sense whatsoever.

As for the second excerpt, though, I don’t read it as “doesn’t want to compete against its competitors”; I read it as a concern with adverse selection. (They don’t want to disproportionately draw the sort of person who would “do business with the Bank primarily because the Bank’s fee” is low, rather than for the ambiance of the bank branches or the quality of the toaster that they receive.) Of course, with high-to-low in particular, those customers may well, as a class, be profitable enough that the bank prefers to get them.

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By: Ademanaonge http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/03/05/the-lies-of-bankers/comment-page-1/#comment-12452 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:46:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=2842#comment-12452 As for the last reason for high to low, I can attest to the fact that many consumers do want the larger item paid first. A lifetime ago, I worked in a member service center at a credit union. I clearly remember the day when we cleared a small item first which led to the return of the member’s mortgage payment. The member was irate and demanded that we reverse the ordering. That member was not alone in her views. So perhaps things a a bit more complicated that one would first think on these matters.

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