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	<title>Comments on: Teaching journalists to read</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: TimKGray</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18835</link>
		<dc:creator>TimKGray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18835</guid>
		<description>I fear that the old-school modesty that my parents inculcated makes me a fogy, but here goes: 

1) Since when must one post links on facebook or Twitter to read? The best-read, most interesting folks I know are the ones who aren&#039;t celebrating their cleverness and coolness on f &amp; T but actually reading (and playing guitar and taking hikes and volunteering at soup kitchens) not dinking on their PCs all day. And I find that a good way to learn what people read is to ask them. Old-fashioned, I know, but it works surprisingly well. It&#039;s harder to BS your way through conversation than through a Tweet or facebook posting.

2)  Linking is great, and the MSM should do it more. But you can say that in the length of a Tweet. It doesn&#039;t, or shouldn&#039;t, take 2,500 words. If Twitter has taught us anything, isn&#039;t it that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fear that the old-school modesty that my parents inculcated makes me a fogy, but here goes: </p>
<p>1) Since when must one post links on facebook or Twitter to read? The best-read, most interesting folks I know are the ones who aren&#8217;t celebrating their cleverness and coolness on f &#038; T but actually reading (and playing guitar and taking hikes and volunteering at soup kitchens) not dinking on their PCs all day. And I find that a good way to learn what people read is to ask them. Old-fashioned, I know, but it works surprisingly well. It&#8217;s harder to BS your way through conversation than through a Tweet or facebook posting.</p>
<p>2)  Linking is great, and the MSM should do it more. But you can say that in the length of a Tweet. It doesn&#8217;t, or shouldn&#8217;t, take 2,500 words. If Twitter has taught us anything, isn&#8217;t it that?</p>
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		<title>By: FrancineMcKenna</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18782</link>
		<dc:creator>FrancineMcKenna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18782</guid>
		<description>Felix, As usual I agree with you on many points but feel you ignored Starkman&#039;s main point.  Traditional media now thinks the way to compete with new media is to up the volume. There are a minute few journalists I talk to who have the time to actually research a story thoroughly.  Their go-to sources and sources for quotes are just that - quick and dirty go-tos. Worse, they&#039;re what Goodman, quoted in Nieman Lab&#039;s Week in Review called, &quot; &#039;laundering my own views&#039; by getting someone from a thinktank to express them in an article.&quot;

I&#039;m totally with you on links.  And also on everyone reading and synthesizing more.  But the cost structure of old media means I often see very young, very green &quot;journalists&quot; trying to cover a complicated, inscrutable, opaque industry like accounting/auditing whenever a story breaks that absolutely requires it.  And they have to suck everything they can out of me in twenty minutes on the phone.  I feel bad for them and for the public. Can a blog like mine substitute for well funded, institutional media?  As hard as I try, it can&#039;t. I lack the resources to do justice to so many of the stories I&#039;d like to do.  I also lack the legal backing.  That any independent bloggers in the financial realm - not institutional ones like you - can accomplish anything is a quite a miracle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix, As usual I agree with you on many points but feel you ignored Starkman&#8217;s main point.  Traditional media now thinks the way to compete with new media is to up the volume. There are a minute few journalists I talk to who have the time to actually research a story thoroughly.  Their go-to sources and sources for quotes are just that &#8211; quick and dirty go-tos. Worse, they&#8217;re what Goodman, quoted in Nieman Lab&#8217;s Week in Review called, &#8221; &#8216;laundering my own views&#8217; by getting someone from a thinktank to express them in an article.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m totally with you on links.  And also on everyone reading and synthesizing more.  But the cost structure of old media means I often see very young, very green &#8220;journalists&#8221; trying to cover a complicated, inscrutable, opaque industry like accounting/auditing whenever a story breaks that absolutely requires it.  And they have to suck everything they can out of me in twenty minutes on the phone.  I feel bad for them and for the public. Can a blog like mine substitute for well funded, institutional media?  As hard as I try, it can&#8217;t. I lack the resources to do justice to so many of the stories I&#8217;d like to do.  I also lack the legal backing.  That any independent bloggers in the financial realm &#8211; not institutional ones like you &#8211; can accomplish anything is a quite a miracle.</p>
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		<title>By: dedalus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18512</link>
		<dc:creator>dedalus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 00:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18512</guid>
		<description>When you say you advocate that J-schools ought &quot;to start putting much more emphasis on reading, as opposed to writing,&quot; I can&#039;t imagine that Lemann would disagree with you. (Did he?) 

btw: what did you think of Lemann&#039;s recent essay on New Orleans? 

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/charm-city-usa/ 


And what&#039;s your view of Mr. &amp; Mrs. Krugman&#039;s explanation of the financial crisis? 

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/slump-goes-why/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you say you advocate that J-schools ought &#8220;to start putting much more emphasis on reading, as opposed to writing,&#8221; I can&#8217;t imagine that Lemann would disagree with you. (Did he?) </p>
<p>btw: what did you think of Lemann&#8217;s recent essay on New Orleans? </p>
<p><a href='http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/charm-city-usa/'>http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives &nbsp;/2010/sep/30/charm-city-usa/</a> </p>
<p>And what&#8217;s your view of Mr. &#038; Mrs. Krugman&#8217;s explanation of the financial crisis? </p>
<p><a href='http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/slump-goes-why/'>http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives &nbsp;/2010/sep/30/slump-goes-why/</a></p>
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		<title>By: maynardGkeynes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18507</link>
		<dc:creator>maynardGkeynes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18507</guid>
		<description>&quot;....we live in a world where Dennis Kneale has reportedly been pulling down $500,000 a year.&quot;

By media standards, I&#039;m not impressed by that salary. But if you really meant &quot;we live in a world where EVEN AN IDIOT LIKE Dennis Kneale has reportedly been pulling down $500,000 a year,&quot; you have made a very good, but different point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;.we live in a world where Dennis Kneale has reportedly been pulling down $500,000 a year.&#8221;</p>
<p>By media standards, I&#8217;m not impressed by that salary. But if you really meant &#8220;we live in a world where EVEN AN IDIOT LIKE Dennis Kneale has reportedly been pulling down $500,000 a year,&#8221; you have made a very good, but different point.</p>
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		<title>By: ccneil</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18506</link>
		<dc:creator>ccneil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18506</guid>
		<description>I think Demand Media can hire people to write for a pittance because there are so few other jobs out there. I worked for 21 years as a reporter and copyeditor at a daily paper in Honolulu. It shut down four months ago and I have been unable to find work since — not in news, or advertising or marketing or...well, you get the idea. So, if you know of any writing jobs out there — ones that pay a living wage — please, tell me where they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Demand Media can hire people to write for a pittance because there are so few other jobs out there. I worked for 21 years as a reporter and copyeditor at a daily paper in Honolulu. It shut down four months ago and I have been unable to find work since — not in news, or advertising or marketing or&#8230;well, you get the idea. So, if you know of any writing jobs out there — ones that pay a living wage — please, tell me where they are.</p>
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		<title>By: mattmc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18505</link>
		<dc:creator>mattmc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18505</guid>
		<description>How about just teaching them that correlation does not imply causation? That error is so common I just assume they are always overreaching when reporting on anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about just teaching them that correlation does not imply causation? That error is so common I just assume they are always overreaching when reporting on anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18501</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18501</guid>
		<description>@dorfl68 - An excellent question.  The time that I have spent in publishing (technology, not financial) has been on the editorial side.  While I have my opinions on workable business models, building business models is relegated to the publishing/sales side of the house.  That makes me less than intellectually honest, but I&#039;m unlikely ever to be in a position to exercise my ideas, which may or may not work.

I suspect that Felix is in the same boat.  The best possible thing he can do is to place his publisher in the best position to monetize his editorial work.  He likely doesn&#039;t have any input as to how his publisher does that, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dorfl68 &#8211; An excellent question.  The time that I have spent in publishing (technology, not financial) has been on the editorial side.  While I have my opinions on workable business models, building business models is relegated to the publishing/sales side of the house.  That makes me less than intellectually honest, but I&#8217;m unlikely ever to be in a position to exercise my ideas, which may or may not work.</p>
<p>I suspect that Felix is in the same boat.  The best possible thing he can do is to place his publisher in the best position to monetize his editorial work.  He likely doesn&#8217;t have any input as to how his publisher does that, however.</p>
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		<title>By: dorfl68</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18495</link>
		<dc:creator>dorfl68</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18495</guid>
		<description>hold on one second. In the world of free info and analysis via blogging, who pays for the reporters who spend time doing in depth analysis? It&#039;s easy to say &quot;links are worth something&quot; in Financial reporting, when you are paid by Reuters, who I suspect makes most money by selling data, not by reporting. Same for Bloomberg. This model can work when independent data pays for blogging - finance, maybe marketing, maybe economics. Do your add or other revenues from blogging pay your salary and overhead? I am concerned that this is a bit skewed by the source of funding and the fact that you are a finance blogger. What, e.g., about politics? Here, it seems like parties have the money, so blogging will be paid by parties, and hence not independent and investigative as it is in finance these days already.

So there is a business model question here - only blogosphere doesn&#039;t work in some areas, since our readers don&#039;t pay for subscribers. Links are part of the answer, but impressions do not seem to pay for good investigative journalism (yet?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hold on one second. In the world of free info and analysis via blogging, who pays for the reporters who spend time doing in depth analysis? It&#8217;s easy to say &#8220;links are worth something&#8221; in Financial reporting, when you are paid by Reuters, who I suspect makes most money by selling data, not by reporting. Same for Bloomberg. This model can work when independent data pays for blogging &#8211; finance, maybe marketing, maybe economics. Do your add or other revenues from blogging pay your salary and overhead? I am concerned that this is a bit skewed by the source of funding and the fact that you are a finance blogger. What, e.g., about politics? Here, it seems like parties have the money, so blogging will be paid by parties, and hence not independent and investigative as it is in finance these days already.</p>
<p>So there is a business model question here &#8211; only blogosphere doesn&#8217;t work in some areas, since our readers don&#8217;t pay for subscribers. Links are part of the answer, but impressions do not seem to pay for good investigative journalism (yet?)</p>
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		<title>By: jrepanich</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18490</link>
		<dc:creator>jrepanich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18490</guid>
		<description>Next time some one asks you to recommend someone for a job, just give them my name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Next time some one asks you to recommend someone for a job, just give them my name.</p>
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		<title>By: Greycap</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18489</link>
		<dc:creator>Greycap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18489</guid>
		<description>This narcissistic distinction between &quot;news&quot; and &quot;commentary&quot; always amuses me. Commentary would hardly be necessary if journalists were capable of analyzing their stories for themselves. But the reality is that most journalists can&#039;t even get the basic facts right, let alone draw inferences from them. Anyone who has ever been &quot;inside&quot; a story, been interviewed, and then seen the results published, knows what I am talking about. I don&#039;t mean that they sympathize with the &quot;wrong&quot; party; I&#039;m talking about getting elementary facts garbled or even backward. Take Gretchen Morgenson. Broadly speaking, I agree with her sympathies, which are essentially that bankers have been extracting rents from everyone else. But her stories are so cack-handed that they always wind me up. This is mostly because I know what Morgenson is talking about but she does not. It is harder to catch this when the story is about an unfamiliar subject, but with experience, one begins to realize that all journalists are Gretchen Morgensons.

The underlying trouble is that journalists and judges share an occupational risk: both are called upon to understand and make judgments upon complicated stories from many corners of society. Yet neither is properly called to account for mistakes in understanding these stories. With no corrective feedback, the temptation is irresistible to believe that one has learned everything about everything. But the reality is that the typical journalist doesn&#039;t know anything about anything, aside from his own profession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This narcissistic distinction between &#8220;news&#8221; and &#8220;commentary&#8221; always amuses me. Commentary would hardly be necessary if journalists were capable of analyzing their stories for themselves. But the reality is that most journalists can&#8217;t even get the basic facts right, let alone draw inferences from them. Anyone who has ever been &#8220;inside&#8221; a story, been interviewed, and then seen the results published, knows what I am talking about. I don&#8217;t mean that they sympathize with the &#8220;wrong&#8221; party; I&#8217;m talking about getting elementary facts garbled or even backward. Take Gretchen Morgenson. Broadly speaking, I agree with her sympathies, which are essentially that bankers have been extracting rents from everyone else. But her stories are so cack-handed that they always wind me up. This is mostly because I know what Morgenson is talking about but she does not. It is harder to catch this when the story is about an unfamiliar subject, but with experience, one begins to realize that all journalists are Gretchen Morgensons.</p>
<p>The underlying trouble is that journalists and judges share an occupational risk: both are called upon to understand and make judgments upon complicated stories from many corners of society. Yet neither is properly called to account for mistakes in understanding these stories. With no corrective feedback, the temptation is irresistible to believe that one has learned everything about everything. But the reality is that the typical journalist doesn&#8217;t know anything about anything, aside from his own profession.</p>
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		<title>By: Anal_yst</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18486</link>
		<dc:creator>Anal_yst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18486</guid>
		<description>Much of this article stuck out as spot-on in my mind, and I suspect that I could respond in-kind to almost every thought/paragraph, but since I don&#039;t have the kind of time (Yom Kippur starting soon and all) and you don&#039;t have the time or inclination to read/respond/read/respond, I&#039;ll save us and your readers all the trouble and just pick one that I think is particularly relevant to the topic at-hand.

&quot;That kind of view says to me that most senior journalists still don’t appreciate the real value being added by the blogosphere — and nor do they appreciate just how much original reporting is done by blogs and other online outlets these days. You can’t become popular just by linking and aggregating, any more: you need good original content.&quot;

Many journalist (and quasi-blogger-journalist hybrid) friends of mine will undoubtedly be less-than-thrilled with me for saying this (ad nauseum), but while I think that point is absolutely true, I don&#039;t think you&#039;ve gone far enough.  

The big journalism (or &quot;journalism,&quot; since I wouldn&#039;t insult the profession by calling most of the drivel in most papers/websites real Journalism) outlets are so far out of it, still, its unbelievable.  Its 2010!  Even giving such outlets the benefit of the doubt that the blogosphere didn&#039;t explode until say 2006, there&#039;s no excuse to still be so far behind the curve.  Not pride.  Not hubris.  No.excuse.  

Step 1 is admitting you have a problem (I&#039;m told), and the Old Guard (and to a lesser extent) of leaders at these media outlets need to man up already and get with the program.  As you say, every outlet in the country doesn&#039;t need to send a reporter to every damn event.  Syndicate AP/whatever and focus on core competencies/areas with comparative advantage/etc.  Hell, start staffing people to curate instead of re-hash commoditized information and syndicate the best of what&#039;s out there, whether from a blog or traditional media outlet or wire service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of this article stuck out as spot-on in my mind, and I suspect that I could respond in-kind to almost every thought/paragraph, but since I don&#8217;t have the kind of time (Yom Kippur starting soon and all) and you don&#8217;t have the time or inclination to read/respond/read/respond, I&#8217;ll save us and your readers all the trouble and just pick one that I think is particularly relevant to the topic at-hand.</p>
<p>&#8220;That kind of view says to me that most senior journalists still don’t appreciate the real value being added by the blogosphere — and nor do they appreciate just how much original reporting is done by blogs and other online outlets these days. You can’t become popular just by linking and aggregating, any more: you need good original content.&#8221;</p>
<p>Many journalist (and quasi-blogger-journalist hybrid) friends of mine will undoubtedly be less-than-thrilled with me for saying this (ad nauseum), but while I think that point is absolutely true, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve gone far enough.  </p>
<p>The big journalism (or &#8220;journalism,&#8221; since I wouldn&#8217;t insult the profession by calling most of the drivel in most papers/websites real Journalism) outlets are so far out of it, still, its unbelievable.  Its 2010!  Even giving such outlets the benefit of the doubt that the blogosphere didn&#8217;t explode until say 2006, there&#8217;s no excuse to still be so far behind the curve.  Not pride.  Not hubris.  No.excuse.  </p>
<p>Step 1 is admitting you have a problem (I&#8217;m told), and the Old Guard (and to a lesser extent) of leaders at these media outlets need to man up already and get with the program.  As you say, every outlet in the country doesn&#8217;t need to send a reporter to every damn event.  Syndicate AP/whatever and focus on core competencies/areas with comparative advantage/etc.  Hell, start staffing people to curate instead of re-hash commoditized information and syndicate the best of what&#8217;s out there, whether from a blog or traditional media outlet or wire service.</p>
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		<title>By: IanFraser</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18484</link>
		<dc:creator>IanFraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18484</guid>
		<description>Great post Felix. In the last few days, since the proposed Basel III rules came out last Sunday, the best financial &quot;journalism&quot; I&#039;ve read has been on so-called blogging sites including Economics of Contempt, Baseline Scenario, Naked Capitalism, The American Scene, Zerohedge, Economist (blogs), FT Alphaville, and of course here. I think the Nearderthals among the dead-tree fraternity had better watch out! Their problems include taking themselves far too seriously, not believing in links (as you say) and an obsessive over-caution (fear of libel suits etc). I was also wondering if there&#039;s a message somewhere in the above post for your bosses at Reuters?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Felix. In the last few days, since the proposed Basel III rules came out last Sunday, the best financial &#8220;journalism&#8221; I&#8217;ve read has been on so-called blogging sites including Economics of Contempt, Baseline Scenario, Naked Capitalism, The American Scene, Zerohedge, Economist (blogs), FT Alphaville, and of course here. I think the Nearderthals among the dead-tree fraternity had better watch out! Their problems include taking themselves far too seriously, not believing in links (as you say) and an obsessive over-caution (fear of libel suits etc). I was also wondering if there&#8217;s a message somewhere in the above post for your bosses at Reuters?</p>
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		<title>By: spectre855</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/17/teaching-journalists-to-read/comment-page-1/#comment-18482</link>
		<dc:creator>spectre855</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=5390#comment-18482</guid>
		<description>tldnr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tldnr</p>
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