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	<title>Comments on: Algorithms vs retail investors</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: ARJTurgot2</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23098</link>
		<dc:creator>ARJTurgot2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 03:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23098</guid>
		<description>China already there:
http://pipelineandgasjournal.com/petrobras-china-sign-10-billion-deal

Politics... it&#039;s been fascinating watching the politics on this, and they may be opaque, but they are hugely covered.  These is one of those cases where China is buying the assets of a continent.  I did a foot-loose-retiree trip south in late &#039;09.  In Buenos Aires you probably can&#039;t go anywhere in the city and not see some form of PetroBras sign at least every 5 minutes;  Soccer teams, bus stops, empanada stands, t-shirts on kids.  And that&#039;s in Argentina. In Brazil, it&#039;s total.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China already there:<br />
<a href='http://pipelineandgasjournal.com/petrobras-china-sign-10-billion-deal'>http://pipelineandgasjournal.com/petrobr as-china-sign-10-billion-deal</a></p>
<p>Politics&#8230; it&#8217;s been fascinating watching the politics on this, and they may be opaque, but they are hugely covered.  These is one of those cases where China is buying the assets of a continent.  I did a foot-loose-retiree trip south in late &#8217;09.  In Buenos Aires you probably can&#8217;t go anywhere in the city and not see some form of PetroBras sign at least every 5 minutes;  Soccer teams, bus stops, empanada stands, t-shirts on kids.  And that&#8217;s in Argentina. In Brazil, it&#8217;s total.</p>
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		<title>By: kosmik</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23075</link>
		<dc:creator>kosmik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23075</guid>
		<description>http://fragmentation.fidessa.com/wp-content/uploads/High-Frequency-Trading-Optiver-Position-Paper.pdf

This one correctly illustrates typical strategies employed by so-called high-frequency traders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='http://fragmentation.fidessa.com/wp-content/uploads/High-Frequency-Trading-Optiver-Position-Paper.pdf'>http://fragmentation.fidessa.com/wp-cont ent/uploads/High-Frequency-Trading-Optiv er-Position-Paper.pdf</a></p>
<p>This one correctly illustrates typical strategies employed by so-called high-frequency traders.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23068</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23068</guid>
		<description>PEG is hardly a definitive measure, especially if relying on past history rather than future expectations.  Sometimes it makes sense to evaluate a slow-growth company on its profitability and free cash flow.

If I recall correctly, they&#039;ve been a bit capital-constrained.  Partnerships with China would help that.

But I avoid because they are politically opaque.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PEG is hardly a definitive measure, especially if relying on past history rather than future expectations.  Sometimes it makes sense to evaluate a slow-growth company on its profitability and free cash flow.</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, they&#8217;ve been a bit capital-constrained.  Partnerships with China would help that.</p>
<p>But I avoid because they are politically opaque.</p>
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		<title>By: ARJTurgot2</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23065</link>
		<dc:creator>ARJTurgot2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23065</guid>
		<description>My most immediate problem is PetroBras.  Today the PEG on it was north of 4. I bought it during the end-of-the-world sale at well less than a PEG of 1, have made buckets, so, time to boogy.  BUT, PetroBras is already the Latin American Exxon, pays a dividend, will be a major partner with China, owns the South Atlantic, and can even get along with Chavez.  Plus, if you think about commodities as holdings, oil would seem to be on the list.  But, dayyam, 4?  You could at least eat Tasty-creme donuts.  And it is just one of my picks like that.  Existential dilemma time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My most immediate problem is PetroBras.  Today the PEG on it was north of 4. I bought it during the end-of-the-world sale at well less than a PEG of 1, have made buckets, so, time to boogy.  BUT, PetroBras is already the Latin American Exxon, pays a dividend, will be a major partner with China, owns the South Atlantic, and can even get along with Chavez.  Plus, if you think about commodities as holdings, oil would seem to be on the list.  But, dayyam, 4?  You could at least eat Tasty-creme donuts.  And it is just one of my picks like that.  Existential dilemma time.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23061</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23061</guid>
		<description>Very funny, Danny. :)

I actually was trading through some of the banks (BAC, WFC, WB) at various points during the slide.  I&#039;m potentially prone to &quot;value trap&quot; just like any other value investor, and I didn&#039;t immediately recognize how serious the problems were.

Happily bailed on WB as soon as it became apparent that the CEO was lying through his teeth about the financial health.  Got burned a bit on the shady BAC/Merrill deal, but profited nicely on WFC.  Overall a wash -- but could easily have been much worse.

Am sticking to more transparent businesses for now, thankyouverymuch!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very funny, Danny. :)</p>
<p>I actually was trading through some of the banks (BAC, WFC, WB) at various points during the slide.  I&#8217;m potentially prone to &#8220;value trap&#8221; just like any other value investor, and I didn&#8217;t immediately recognize how serious the problems were.</p>
<p>Happily bailed on WB as soon as it became apparent that the CEO was lying through his teeth about the financial health.  Got burned a bit on the shady BAC/Merrill deal, but profited nicely on WFC.  Overall a wash &#8212; but could easily have been much worse.</p>
<p>Am sticking to more transparent businesses for now, thankyouverymuch!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Danny_Black</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23059</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny_Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23059</guid>
		<description>TFF, so you were a buyer of BSC and LEH during 2008?

(Tongue firmly in cheek...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TFF, so you were a buyer of BSC and LEH during 2008?</p>
<p>(Tongue firmly in cheek&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23057</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23057</guid>
		<description>Felix fears volatility:
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/05/10/why-volatility-means-you-should-sell-stocks/

Since May 10, the S&amp;P500 is up 15.7%.  It did fall first -- so Felix did okay as long as he jumped back in before mid-September.  Still not sure it makes sense to try timing the market like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix fears volatility:<br />
<a href='http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/05/10/why-volatility-means-you-should-sell-stocks/'>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/20 10/05/10/why-volatility-means-you-should -sell-stocks/</a></p>
<p>Since May 10, the S&#038;P500 is up 15.7%.  It did fall first &#8212; so Felix did okay as long as he jumped back in before mid-September.  Still not sure it makes sense to try timing the market like that.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23053</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23053</guid>
		<description>One more observation?  Taking on risk is most profitable in the midst of a panic.  Everybody knows which stocks are likely to suffer most in a downturn, and they get dumped first (and hardest).

Consider a &quot;counter-cyclic&quot; philosophy?  When the market projections are rosy, be content with high-dividend slow-growth stocks.  Eventually the market will turn, and those will hold up better than their riskier peers.  Then you are perfectly positioned to pick up some bargains.

Volatility is a long-term investor&#039;s best friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more observation?  Taking on risk is most profitable in the midst of a panic.  Everybody knows which stocks are likely to suffer most in a downturn, and they get dumped first (and hardest).</p>
<p>Consider a &#8220;counter-cyclic&#8221; philosophy?  When the market projections are rosy, be content with high-dividend slow-growth stocks.  Eventually the market will turn, and those will hold up better than their riskier peers.  Then you are perfectly positioned to pick up some bargains.</p>
<p>Volatility is a long-term investor&#8217;s best friend.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23050</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23050</guid>
		<description>ARJTurgot, it sounds like our situations are not too different (though you are likely 20 years older).  As you say, you can never abandon equities in a world where inflation remains such a risk.  My hope is to construct a retirement portfolio that provides for my income needs through dividends, keeping a modest allocation in cash and perhaps bonds for liquidity.  Not terribly different from my present strategy.

Our top four holdings right now (in order from least risky to greatest return) are PG, JNJ, ABT, and IBM.  Pharma is facing a tough decade, however the wiser companies are using the present cash flow to invest in other businesses.  I expect they will maintain their strong dividends while achieving slow growth.  IBM is one of several very similar &quot;mature tech&quot; companies, providing essential services on a scale that smaller businesses can&#039;t touch.  Their growth prospects are likely limited at this point, but their margins and cash flow are strong.

Dividends, stable earnings, and P/E below 15 limit the downside risk in an economic downturn.  All stand to benefit from global growth.  I hesitate to place big bets on any single issue, but have a dozen holdings of this nature that form the core of my portfolio.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ARJTurgot, it sounds like our situations are not too different (though you are likely 20 years older).  As you say, you can never abandon equities in a world where inflation remains such a risk.  My hope is to construct a retirement portfolio that provides for my income needs through dividends, keeping a modest allocation in cash and perhaps bonds for liquidity.  Not terribly different from my present strategy.</p>
<p>Our top four holdings right now (in order from least risky to greatest return) are PG, JNJ, ABT, and IBM.  Pharma is facing a tough decade, however the wiser companies are using the present cash flow to invest in other businesses.  I expect they will maintain their strong dividends while achieving slow growth.  IBM is one of several very similar &#8220;mature tech&#8221; companies, providing essential services on a scale that smaller businesses can&#8217;t touch.  Their growth prospects are likely limited at this point, but their margins and cash flow are strong.</p>
<p>Dividends, stable earnings, and P/E below 15 limit the downside risk in an economic downturn.  All stand to benefit from global growth.  I hesitate to place big bets on any single issue, but have a dozen holdings of this nature that form the core of my portfolio.</p>
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		<title>By: ARJTurgot2</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23046</link>
		<dc:creator>ARJTurgot2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23046</guid>
		<description>@TFF

Greed never rests.  I&#039;m evidently older, my urchins are through grad school, we held on to the mortgage docs for historical purposes, and the annuity is somewhat inflation adjusted.  I owe on a library fine, but on consumer debt we&#039;re part of the vile class exploiting the poor; forget miles, my credit cards pay me money.

But, my lessons in life lead me to the conclusion that there is a dearth of competence in many of our leaders and leading institutions. Sadly, my time in government exposed me to some of our state and national leaders.  Not encouraging. In those circumstances I think you have to stay in growth mode.  The urgency drops, and you can be selective, but you have to stay in the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TFF</p>
<p>Greed never rests.  I&#8217;m evidently older, my urchins are through grad school, we held on to the mortgage docs for historical purposes, and the annuity is somewhat inflation adjusted.  I owe on a library fine, but on consumer debt we&#8217;re part of the vile class exploiting the poor; forget miles, my credit cards pay me money.</p>
<p>But, my lessons in life lead me to the conclusion that there is a dearth of competence in many of our leaders and leading institutions. Sadly, my time in government exposed me to some of our state and national leaders.  Not encouraging. In those circumstances I think you have to stay in growth mode.  The urgency drops, and you can be selective, but you have to stay in the game.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23038</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 03:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23038</guid>
		<description>ARJTurgot2, my personal focus at this point is highly risk-averse.  If I can achieve 3% real returns over the next 20 years then I&#039;m set for life -- and that is a target that I believe I can achieve without straying far from the most boring defensive stocks on the slate.

Ideally I would love to be getting part of that return from bonds, but with yields in the toilet that isn&#039;t an option right now.  So I have been funneling new money into mortgage repayment and carrying 80%+ of investment assets in companies that I am certain will be worth more in 2020 than they are today (while paying a 3% dividend yield throughout).  Can&#039;t think of any better strategy to meet my goals.

Not sure where I would look for growth right now.  y2kurtus has a good strategy, but you have to implement it very carefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ARJTurgot2, my personal focus at this point is highly risk-averse.  If I can achieve 3% real returns over the next 20 years then I&#8217;m set for life &#8212; and that is a target that I believe I can achieve without straying far from the most boring defensive stocks on the slate.</p>
<p>Ideally I would love to be getting part of that return from bonds, but with yields in the toilet that isn&#8217;t an option right now.  So I have been funneling new money into mortgage repayment and carrying 80%+ of investment assets in companies that I am certain will be worth more in 2020 than they are today (while paying a 3% dividend yield throughout).  Can&#8217;t think of any better strategy to meet my goals.</p>
<p>Not sure where I would look for growth right now.  y2kurtus has a good strategy, but you have to implement it very carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: ARJTurgot2</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23035</link>
		<dc:creator>ARJTurgot2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23035</guid>
		<description>&quot;In contrast, I was adding to my stock holdings during the fourth quarter of 2008 and first quarter of 2009 BECAUSE I KNEW WHAT I WAS BUYING HAD VALUE&quot;

Check; but what now?  Very, very few bargains around, and the ones I got in 08-09 are at [or past] the fully valued stage.  Lovely companies, solid management, usually at least some moat, all slowly regressing towards the mean.  At the same time, I will never see those companies at those prices again.    

Still, for the time being, though my money be dumb, it seems like there&#039;s a whole lot of smart institutional money that would like to take its place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In contrast, I was adding to my stock holdings during the fourth quarter of 2008 and first quarter of 2009 BECAUSE I KNEW WHAT I WAS BUYING HAD VALUE&#8221;</p>
<p>Check; but what now?  Very, very few bargains around, and the ones I got in 08-09 are at [or past] the fully valued stage.  Lovely companies, solid management, usually at least some moat, all slowly regressing towards the mean.  At the same time, I will never see those companies at those prices again.    </p>
<p>Still, for the time being, though my money be dumb, it seems like there&#8217;s a whole lot of smart institutional money that would like to take its place.</p>
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		<title>By: esclyme</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23018</link>
		<dc:creator>esclyme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 17:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23018</guid>
		<description>Felix, wouldn&#039;t you agree that arbitrage is now in the same category of algorithms? Detecting price inefficiencies in multiple markets has to be owned by Renaissance and Shaw at this point, no?  Are there opportunities in arbitrage today for retail investors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix, wouldn&#8217;t you agree that arbitrage is now in the same category of algorithms? Detecting price inefficiencies in multiple markets has to be owned by Renaissance and Shaw at this point, no?  Are there opportunities in arbitrage today for retail investors?</p>
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		<title>By: y2kurtus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23015</link>
		<dc:creator>y2kurtus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23015</guid>
		<description>As someone who makes his living investing other peoples money in individual stocks I can tell you that there really is no right or wrong between the indexing approach or individual approach. 

TFF and DWJ are both right when they say that &quot;smart retail&quot; can beat the market like a drum over time. 

If you ask me the truely dumb &quot;retail order flow&quot; comes not from people who are logging into e-trade to sell their 100 shares of JNJ, KO, &amp; IBM at the worst possible moment... but from the people who are calling their brokers assitant to dump their XYZ Agressive Growth funds in the middle of a market panic. That&#039;s why I will always prefer individually held stocks to funds. 

The people who listened to Cramer say &quot;GET OUT OF THE MARKET IF YOU NEED THE MONEY IN THE NEXT 5 YEARS&quot; on 10/6/2008 and never returned (or who are just returning now.) - There&#039;s your dumb money. Timing wise Cramer was right... from October 6th 2008 to the March 2009 low the market dropped a little over 30%. To the extent you avoided that bloodbath good for you. Yet from 10/8/08-today the market is UP almost 30%... so I hope the people who GOT OUT remembered to GET BACK IN.  

I&#039;d bet that most people who regularly read Felix&#039;s blog could beat the market over their investing lives so long as they can promise never to bail out when the market is dropping like a rock. There are a hundred great investing quotes out there but my favorate is &quot;the best time to buy is when there is blood flowing in the street and some of it&#039;s yours.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who makes his living investing other peoples money in individual stocks I can tell you that there really is no right or wrong between the indexing approach or individual approach. </p>
<p>TFF and DWJ are both right when they say that &#8220;smart retail&#8221; can beat the market like a drum over time. </p>
<p>If you ask me the truely dumb &#8220;retail order flow&#8221; comes not from people who are logging into e-trade to sell their 100 shares of JNJ, KO, &#038; IBM at the worst possible moment&#8230; but from the people who are calling their brokers assitant to dump their XYZ Agressive Growth funds in the middle of a market panic. That&#8217;s why I will always prefer individually held stocks to funds. </p>
<p>The people who listened to Cramer say &#8220;GET OUT OF THE MARKET IF YOU NEED THE MONEY IN THE NEXT 5 YEARS&#8221; on 10/6/2008 and never returned (or who are just returning now.) &#8211; There&#8217;s your dumb money. Timing wise Cramer was right&#8230; from October 6th 2008 to the March 2009 low the market dropped a little over 30%. To the extent you avoided that bloodbath good for you. Yet from 10/8/08-today the market is UP almost 30%&#8230; so I hope the people who GOT OUT remembered to GET BACK IN.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d bet that most people who regularly read Felix&#8217;s blog could beat the market over their investing lives so long as they can promise never to bail out when the market is dropping like a rock. There are a hundred great investing quotes out there but my favorate is &#8220;the best time to buy is when there is blood flowing in the street and some of it&#8217;s yours.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: djiddish98</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/01/10/algorithms-vs-retail-investors/comment-page-1/#comment-23010</link>
		<dc:creator>djiddish98</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=6890#comment-23010</guid>
		<description>Is there any truth to the &quot;first of the month&quot; strategy, that the first day of every month largely accounts for the gains during an entire year? Is this due to the big money re-balancing their portfolios at the start of every month?

If so, I think it&#039;s wise to realize the constraints that the big money have placed on them that retail investors do not and take advantage of that IE not having to worry about redemptions or fixed periods of re-allocation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any truth to the &#8220;first of the month&#8221; strategy, that the first day of every month largely accounts for the gains during an entire year? Is this due to the big money re-balancing their portfolios at the start of every month?</p>
<p>If so, I think it&#8217;s wise to realize the constraints that the big money have placed on them that retail investors do not and take advantage of that IE not having to worry about redemptions or fixed periods of re-allocation.</p>
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