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	<title>Comments on: Why the stock market is increasingly irrelevant</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: AmicusAlso</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-24007</link>
		<dc:creator>AmicusAlso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-24007</guid>
		<description>Sir, how _dare_ you!  

LOL.

Was there ever really a golden age of allocative efficiency?

Isn&#039;t the goal of most private equity strategies to eventually dump their stock, to cash out, even if it means paying big-board fees?  (Did I say &quot;dump&quot; - I meant, lovingly &quot;share&quot;, pun intended).

You ignore the role of price discovery.  Apple may not have issued since forever, but they sure like the currency of a highly valued stock, even more so when everyone can see just how big it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sir, how _dare_ you!  </p>
<p>LOL.</p>
<p>Was there ever really a golden age of allocative efficiency?</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t the goal of most private equity strategies to eventually dump their stock, to cash out, even if it means paying big-board fees?  (Did I say &#8220;dump&#8221; &#8211; I meant, lovingly &#8220;share&#8221;, pun intended).</p>
<p>You ignore the role of price discovery.  Apple may not have issued since forever, but they sure like the currency of a highly valued stock, even more so when everyone can see just how big it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Guambat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23968</link>
		<dc:creator>Guambat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23968</guid>
		<description>&quot;The NYSE is place for algorithms and speculators to make bets on financial assets.&quot;  Well put.  I&#039;da been disagreeable if you had said &quot;place bets&quot;, which is what they&#039;d have you believe.  They&#039;re manufactured.  Just like the pokies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The NYSE is place for algorithms and speculators to make bets on financial assets.&#8221;  Well put.  I&#8217;da been disagreeable if you had said &#8220;place bets&#8221;, which is what they&#8217;d have you believe.  They&#8217;re manufactured.  Just like the pokies.</p>
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		<title>By: guanix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23966</link>
		<dc:creator>guanix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23966</guid>
		<description>@sanchk: It definitely is, because some firm decisions, such as the choice of dividends vs. repurchases, can affect the tax paid by shareholders and thus the value of the stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@sanchk: It definitely is, because some firm decisions, such as the choice of dividends vs. repurchases, can affect the tax paid by shareholders and thus the value of the stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Ugottabesick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23961</link>
		<dc:creator>Ugottabesick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23961</guid>
		<description>The capital markets will continue to attract funds as long as the profit motive is strong enough. The Stock Exchanges will continue to perform their role till a more transparent and efficient form of trading comes into existence. Algorithms may drive trading, but never, investing. 
Way forward: Abolish tax on dividends, as profits are distributed only after payment of Corporate Taxes. This will make dividend distribution and capital raising a two way street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The capital markets will continue to attract funds as long as the profit motive is strong enough. The Stock Exchanges will continue to perform their role till a more transparent and efficient form of trading comes into existence. Algorithms may drive trading, but never, investing.<br />
Way forward: Abolish tax on dividends, as profits are distributed only after payment of Corporate Taxes. This will make dividend distribution and capital raising a two way street.</p>
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		<title>By: MShames</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23960</link>
		<dc:creator>MShames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23960</guid>
		<description>Perceptive comments about the vanishing US equity markets.  However, the implications are even greater than Felix suggests.   Our entire retirement system depends upon robust
capital markets and open access to these markets.

I&#039;ve written further about this, please see:  http://bit.ly/gG7npz.

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perceptive comments about the vanishing US equity markets.  However, the implications are even greater than Felix suggests.   Our entire retirement system depends upon robust<br />
capital markets and open access to these markets.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written further about this, please see:  <a href='http://bit.ly/gG7npz.'>http://bit.ly/gG7npz.</a></p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: sanchk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23959</link>
		<dc:creator>sanchk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23959</guid>
		<description>Re. your income tax point, do you think it&#039;s the role of firms to think about the taxes which their shareholders have to pay? I know as a law abiding citizen that I have to pay taxes on income. Why should a firm be making decisions for me as to when I can earn money or not? If I don&#039;t want to pay taxes on any earnings, then I shouldn&#039;t bother making any earnings (legally speaking)... so why invest in a company!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. your income tax point, do you think it&#8217;s the role of firms to think about the taxes which their shareholders have to pay? I know as a law abiding citizen that I have to pay taxes on income. Why should a firm be making decisions for me as to when I can earn money or not? If I don&#8217;t want to pay taxes on any earnings, then I shouldn&#8217;t bother making any earnings (legally speaking)&#8230; so why invest in a company!?</p>
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		<title>By: adamt78</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23957</link>
		<dc:creator>adamt78</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 05:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23957</guid>
		<description>Felix is the winner again!  Financials aren&#039;t everything.  There is still a big workforce to organize and attention to people is still at the top of the corporate mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix is the winner again!  Financials aren&#8217;t everything.  There is still a big workforce to organize and attention to people is still at the top of the corporate mission.</p>
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		<title>By: artammer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23955</link>
		<dc:creator>artammer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 04:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23955</guid>
		<description>ownership society? it seems to me that the more stock americans owned..the worse the market has performed..
what were mutual funds in the 50&#039;s thru 70&#039;s? Only rich people seemed to own stocks..Once the mutual fund craze hit in the wild 80&#039;s ..leading to the 87 crash..what followed?
the 2001 crash, the 2007 thru 2009 crash..Too bad I was too stupid to buy at 7000 just recently.  You are correct this is just a casino , not a serious investment platform..maybe our brightest members of society can spend their time doing something really productive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ownership society? it seems to me that the more stock americans owned..the worse the market has performed..<br />
what were mutual funds in the 50&#8242;s thru 70&#8242;s? Only rich people seemed to own stocks..Once the mutual fund craze hit in the wild 80&#8242;s ..leading to the 87 crash..what followed?<br />
the 2001 crash, the 2007 thru 2009 crash..Too bad I was too stupid to buy at 7000 just recently.  You are correct this is just a casino , not a serious investment platform..maybe our brightest members of society can spend their time doing something really productive.</p>
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		<title>By: Woltmann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23954</link>
		<dc:creator>Woltmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23954</guid>
		<description>Really now, somebody actually still owns stocks? How quaint ..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really now, somebody actually still owns stocks? How quaint ..</p>
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		<title>By: Samdog_07</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23951</link>
		<dc:creator>Samdog_07</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23951</guid>
		<description>Felix -- Thanks for that sweet NYT piece. The only question I have is how much longer Wall Street, the place, can fend off the online market. Why do we even need a physical Wall Street? I thought the whole point is more and more efficiency, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix &#8212; Thanks for that sweet NYT piece. The only question I have is how much longer Wall Street, the place, can fend off the online market. Why do we even need a physical Wall Street? I thought the whole point is more and more efficiency, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Missinginaction</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23950</link>
		<dc:creator>Missinginaction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23950</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is a national treasure&quot;.

No kidding Felix?  So Chuck actually said that....recently?  Wow.  Well, it&#039;s surely a treasure for some of us.    

It&#039;s been my experience that the buyer gets to pick the name of the new firm.

Well I can sleep better now knowing that the cradle of capitalism was up again today on little volume. 

MIA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is a national treasure&#8221;.</p>
<p>No kidding Felix?  So Chuck actually said that&#8230;.recently?  Wow.  Well, it&#8217;s surely a treasure for some of us.    </p>
<p>It&#8217;s been my experience that the buyer gets to pick the name of the new firm.</p>
<p>Well I can sleep better now knowing that the cradle of capitalism was up again today on little volume. </p>
<p>MIA</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23949</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23949</guid>
		<description>la_dave, qualified dividends and long-term capital gains are currently treated very similarly. That could change in 2013, but ANYTHING could change by then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>la_dave, qualified dividends and long-term capital gains are currently treated very similarly. That could change in 2013, but ANYTHING could change by then.</p>
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		<title>By: la_dave</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23948</link>
		<dc:creator>la_dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 00:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23948</guid>
		<description>TimWorstall:  Dividends are taxed differently than capital gains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax#United_States</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimWorstall:  Dividends are taxed differently than capital gains.</p>
<p><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax#United_States'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_ta x#United_States</a></p>
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		<title>By: EconWatcher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23944</link>
		<dc:creator>EconWatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23944</guid>
		<description>Felix, maybe this is old hat for you, but congratulations on making the NYT op-ed page.  That&#039;s some prime journalistic real estate. 

Maybe you could offer your opinion on the following sometime:  If we&#039;re shifting from a model of broad shareholder ownership, how much of this is attributable to loss of confidence in gatekeepers (rating agencies, auditors, analysts, etc.)?  What different means of monitoring management will arise from the new forms of ownership?  Will the old institutional gatekeepers evolve and adapt to the new ownserhip arrangements, or will they be replaced by something entirely new--and if so, what?

Just a suggestion....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix, maybe this is old hat for you, but congratulations on making the NYT op-ed page.  That&#8217;s some prime journalistic real estate. </p>
<p>Maybe you could offer your opinion on the following sometime:  If we&#8217;re shifting from a model of broad shareholder ownership, how much of this is attributable to loss of confidence in gatekeepers (rating agencies, auditors, analysts, etc.)?  What different means of monitoring management will arise from the new forms of ownership?  Will the old institutional gatekeepers evolve and adapt to the new ownserhip arrangements, or will they be replaced by something entirely new&#8211;and if so, what?</p>
<p>Just a suggestion&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: fcvnyc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/02/14/why-the-stock-market-is-increasingly-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-23942</link>
		<dc:creator>fcvnyc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=7277#comment-23942</guid>
		<description>The following comment is my response on www.timun.net to the NY Times OPED piece.
	 

WALL STREET’S DEAD END AND THE TFD GLOBAL GOVERNANCE SYSTEM
February 14, 2011
Felix Salman, the finance blogger at Reuters, argues in the New York Times of February 14, 2011 that Wall Street is heading towards a dead end. Since 1997, the peak year with its 7000 public companies, the listing has steadily gone down, so that presently only 4000 are listed. Those that are listed do not reflect the vibrancy in the economic sector where innovative companies such as Apple find their financing from private and, generally, large institutions. Thus, American style capitalism of shareholder companies that are part of a regulated financial system is disappearing.
One of the effects of this decline is the increased and unregulated power of large financial institutions and super rich elites who determine the direction of the various markets in the global economy. Their decisions do not foremost allocate capital based upon the need of the real economies of nations and regions, but upon their outsized desire of making money on their money by betting on those markets. Given the lack of an effective global regulatory structure, much of this “investing” is not monitored, let alone regulated. While nations battle with huge sovereign debts and have to resort to drastic budget cuts, huge global financial resources with its increasing financial concentration are directed towards non-productive users.
Should nations and civil society try to reform the present financial system and make public exchanges more effective in allocating capital for the real needs of people and planet? Should developing countries continue to set up their own stock exchanges or opt for an overhaul of the global financial system? How should the international community deal with a connected global economy that is so well described in Connected  by Daniel Altman who analyzed the global economy by watching it for 24 hours on June 15, 2005 and who,  several years later in Outrageous Fortunes , has been looking for the “deep factors” that would determine  its future? 
The Tierra Solution gives an answer to those questions. Its TFD global governance system would utilize a carbon-based international monetary system to combat the climate crisis by advancing low carbon and climate-resilient development. It would monitor and regulate all the various sources of financing, be they stock exchanges, private funds, sovereign wealth funds, hedge funds etc., and thus create a level playing field in the financial and monetary sectors. By being able to monitor, regulate, and engage in credit and money creation its Global Central Bank would have the authority to direct the world’s existing capital and the new credit and liquidity requirements for climate and development policies, programs and projects towards  productive uses in the real economies of its member nations. Though this high level of collaboration of a global monetary union may seem unattainable in the next couple of years, the vision of and reason for such global governance system may be precipitated during this decade by an ever increasing awareness of the ineffectiveness of the present monetary and financial systems and the ascendancy of financial black markets and by the global serious impoverishments in food, health and housing of a looming climate catastrophe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following comment is my response on <a href='http://www.timun.net'>http://www.timun.net</a> to the NY Times OPED piece.</p>
<p>WALL STREET’S DEAD END AND THE TFD GLOBAL GOVERNANCE SYSTEM<br />
February 14, 2011<br />
Felix Salman, the finance blogger at Reuters, argues in the New York Times of February 14, 2011 that Wall Street is heading towards a dead end. Since 1997, the peak year with its 7000 public companies, the listing has steadily gone down, so that presently only 4000 are listed. Those that are listed do not reflect the vibrancy in the economic sector where innovative companies such as Apple find their financing from private and, generally, large institutions. Thus, American style capitalism of shareholder companies that are part of a regulated financial system is disappearing.<br />
One of the effects of this decline is the increased and unregulated power of large financial institutions and super rich elites who determine the direction of the various markets in the global economy. Their decisions do not foremost allocate capital based upon the need of the real economies of nations and regions, but upon their outsized desire of making money on their money by betting on those markets. Given the lack of an effective global regulatory structure, much of this “investing” is not monitored, let alone regulated. While nations battle with huge sovereign debts and have to resort to drastic budget cuts, huge global financial resources with its increasing financial concentration are directed towards non-productive users.<br />
Should nations and civil society try to reform the present financial system and make public exchanges more effective in allocating capital for the real needs of people and planet? Should developing countries continue to set up their own stock exchanges or opt for an overhaul of the global financial system? How should the international community deal with a connected global economy that is so well described in Connected  by Daniel Altman who analyzed the global economy by watching it for 24 hours on June 15, 2005 and who,  several years later in Outrageous Fortunes , has been looking for the “deep factors” that would determine  its future?<br />
The Tierra Solution gives an answer to those questions. Its TFD global governance system would utilize a carbon-based international monetary system to combat the climate crisis by advancing low carbon and climate-resilient development. It would monitor and regulate all the various sources of financing, be they stock exchanges, private funds, sovereign wealth funds, hedge funds etc., and thus create a level playing field in the financial and monetary sectors. By being able to monitor, regulate, and engage in credit and money creation its Global Central Bank would have the authority to direct the world’s existing capital and the new credit and liquidity requirements for climate and development policies, programs and projects towards  productive uses in the real economies of its member nations. Though this high level of collaboration of a global monetary union may seem unattainable in the next couple of years, the vision of and reason for such global governance system may be precipitated during this decade by an ever increasing awareness of the ineffectiveness of the present monetary and financial systems and the ascendancy of financial black markets and by the global serious impoverishments in food, health and housing of a looming climate catastrophe.</p>
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