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	<title>Comments on: How to justify Groupon&#8217;s valuation</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32533</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32533</guid>
		<description>Agreed with 2contango. Groupon&#039;s business model relies on:

(1) The willingness of restaurants and other businesses to offer a 75% discount in the hope of attracting repeat customers at the full price.

(2) The inability of competitors to elbow in and offer either restaurants or consumers a better deal.

(3) Cutting costs sufficiently to turn an operating profit.

I&#039;m personally puzzled at their inability to turn the 75% discount into a profit. Admittedly they pass the majority of that along to the customers, and spend even more on convincing new customers to sign up with them, but it shouldn&#039;t be THAT expensive to attract business. And if it is, then your business might not be as promising as you hoped.

A month ago we received a Groupon (actually a look-alike competitor) offer for a local restaurant that we&#039;ve already visited a couple times and enjoyed. Still didn&#039;t bite because the setup ultimately seemed to be more hassle than it is worth.

Will be hard to build a $10B business on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed with 2contango. Groupon&#8217;s business model relies on:</p>
<p>(1) The willingness of restaurants and other businesses to offer a 75% discount in the hope of attracting repeat customers at the full price.</p>
<p>(2) The inability of competitors to elbow in and offer either restaurants or consumers a better deal.</p>
<p>(3) Cutting costs sufficiently to turn an operating profit.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m personally puzzled at their inability to turn the 75% discount into a profit. Admittedly they pass the majority of that along to the customers, and spend even more on convincing new customers to sign up with them, but it shouldn&#8217;t be THAT expensive to attract business. And if it is, then your business might not be as promising as you hoped.</p>
<p>A month ago we received a Groupon (actually a look-alike competitor) offer for a local restaurant that we&#8217;ve already visited a couple times and enjoyed. Still didn&#8217;t bite because the setup ultimately seemed to be more hassle than it is worth.</p>
<p>Will be hard to build a $10B business on that.</p>
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		<title>By: Frwip</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32531</link>
		<dc:creator>Frwip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2011 03:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32531</guid>
		<description>@TFF

Nope. Not interested. Even for the low, low price of $50.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TFF</p>
<p>Nope. Not interested. Even for the low, low price of $50.</p>
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		<title>By: 2contango</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32529</link>
		<dc:creator>2contango</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32529</guid>
		<description>Analysis of Groupon typically leaves out the crucial role restaurants play in determining Groupon&#039;s future. Without their participation, Groupon in dead. So the real question is can Groupon keep restaurants happy?

Restaurants view Groupon as a straightforward marketing expense. They lose money (and Groupon gains money) on coupons and they hope they will get customers to sample their offerings and become repeat, full-paying customers, thereby covering this initial marketing expense.

The question is whether or not this is cost-effective for restaurants. (They have plenty of other marketing channels they could use.) Attracting only coupon users is a recipe for bankruptcy. So they have an incentive to keep coupon use to a minimum. And if enough Groupon users don&#039;t turn into full-paying customers, restaurants will pull out and Groupon will be dead, regardless of how many customers Groupon has or how well consumers like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Analysis of Groupon typically leaves out the crucial role restaurants play in determining Groupon&#8217;s future. Without their participation, Groupon in dead. So the real question is can Groupon keep restaurants happy?</p>
<p>Restaurants view Groupon as a straightforward marketing expense. They lose money (and Groupon gains money) on coupons and they hope they will get customers to sample their offerings and become repeat, full-paying customers, thereby covering this initial marketing expense.</p>
<p>The question is whether or not this is cost-effective for restaurants. (They have plenty of other marketing channels they could use.) Attracting only coupon users is a recipe for bankruptcy. So they have an incentive to keep coupon use to a minimum. And if enough Groupon users don&#8217;t turn into full-paying customers, restaurants will pull out and Groupon will be dead, regardless of how many customers Groupon has or how well consumers like it.</p>
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		<title>By: richardwmay</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32507</link>
		<dc:creator>richardwmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32507</guid>
		<description>Groupon is the internet equivalent of newspaper coupons.  It&#039;s nice to receive Groupon&#039;s daily promotional email, but seriously, don&#039;t they have anything better than pizza, Italian restaurants, spas, yoga and teeth-whitening specialists to promote.  Doesn&#039;t seem to me to be a sustainable business model with some serious competitors lurking in the background.  They should have taken Google&#039;s offer.  Now they are just red meat!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Groupon is the internet equivalent of newspaper coupons.  It&#8217;s nice to receive Groupon&#8217;s daily promotional email, but seriously, don&#8217;t they have anything better than pizza, Italian restaurants, spas, yoga and teeth-whitening specialists to promote.  Doesn&#8217;t seem to me to be a sustainable business model with some serious competitors lurking in the background.  They should have taken Google&#8217;s offer.  Now they are just red meat!</p>
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		<title>By: joelseearr</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32503</link>
		<dc:creator>joelseearr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32503</guid>
		<description>Just today, I got an email inviting me to use &quot;Groupon Reserve&quot;. This is basically Groupon&#039;s version of Gilt City; discounts for high-end restaurants and services. What&#039;s interesting is that it highlights a bigger problem for Groupon, which is the failure to capture multiple retail markets when they had the chance.

On the upper end, you have Gilt City, Bloomspot, and I&#039;m sure many others.
On the bottom end, you have tons of competitors.
On the middle, you have Livingsocial, plus Google and Amazon muscling in.

Groupon was first to the largest market, but they were behind Livingsocial when it came to buying into the travel market, they were behind Scoutmob when it came to the mobile market (the failing Groupon &quot;Now&quot;) and they are behind Gilt City, etc. when it comes to the upper end market.

They can still grow and do well, but I&#039;m sure all this competition means that they&#039;ll have to be a little more merchant-friendly. Right now, I&#039;m seeing increasing numbers of desperate low-end retailers on Groupon, especially in Groupon Now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just today, I got an email inviting me to use &#8220;Groupon Reserve&#8221;. This is basically Groupon&#8217;s version of Gilt City; discounts for high-end restaurants and services. What&#8217;s interesting is that it highlights a bigger problem for Groupon, which is the failure to capture multiple retail markets when they had the chance.</p>
<p>On the upper end, you have Gilt City, Bloomspot, and I&#8217;m sure many others.<br />
On the bottom end, you have tons of competitors.<br />
On the middle, you have Livingsocial, plus Google and Amazon muscling in.</p>
<p>Groupon was first to the largest market, but they were behind Livingsocial when it came to buying into the travel market, they were behind Scoutmob when it came to the mobile market (the failing Groupon &#8220;Now&#8221;) and they are behind Gilt City, etc. when it comes to the upper end market.</p>
<p>They can still grow and do well, but I&#8217;m sure all this competition means that they&#8217;ll have to be a little more merchant-friendly. Right now, I&#8217;m seeing increasing numbers of desperate low-end retailers on Groupon, especially in Groupon Now.</p>
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		<title>By: IQMS</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32500</link>
		<dc:creator>IQMS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32500</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t</p>
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		<title>By: jtemujinw</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32499</link>
		<dc:creator>jtemujinw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32499</guid>
		<description>Another issue: Groupon&#039;s common stock comes with extremely limited voting rights, so the bull case must substantiate the credibility of management. Does anyone want to do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another issue: Groupon&#8217;s common stock comes with extremely limited voting rights, so the bull case must substantiate the credibility of management. Does anyone want to do that?</p>
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		<title>By: AndreKenji</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32498</link>
		<dc:creator>AndreKenji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32498</guid>
		<description>There is another problem: no one knows for sure if the people that buys the coupons are the customers, or if the merchants are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is another problem: no one knows for sure if the people that buys the coupons are the customers, or if the merchants are.</p>
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		<title>By: FBreughel1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32496</link>
		<dc:creator>FBreughel1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32496</guid>
		<description>Felix, you are in phantasyland because you just focus on Groupon itself and not on the market.

Every business that is easily duplicated by competitors has a NPV of zero. Groupon is such a business and soon competitors will drive revenues down.

Bye bye business case...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix, you are in phantasyland because you just focus on Groupon itself and not on the market.</p>
<p>Every business that is easily duplicated by competitors has a NPV of zero. Groupon is such a business and soon competitors will drive revenues down.</p>
<p>Bye bye business case&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: fabiodebe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32486</link>
		<dc:creator>fabiodebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32486</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s unrealistic to invest in a company based on what it might do in the future to monetise its large user base. If at least they had a clear vision of it in their business plan / flotation prospect, but that&#039;s not the case. So why don&#039;t they stay private (they&#039;ll find funding anyway) and go public once they&#039;ve really cracked an appropriate, long term business model?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s unrealistic to invest in a company based on what it might do in the future to monetise its large user base. If at least they had a clear vision of it in their business plan / flotation prospect, but that&#8217;s not the case. So why don&#8217;t they stay private (they&#8217;ll find funding anyway) and go public once they&#8217;ve really cracked an appropriate, long term business model?</p>
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		<title>By: NeilB</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32483</link>
		<dc:creator>NeilB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32483</guid>
		<description>As in internet marketeer I would interpret your point slightly differently.

Yes, Groupon&#039;s early subscribers are more profitable than the later ones, but it is also true that the marginal cost of finding new subscribers increases over time quite dramatically. So if the old subscribers become inactive, then it can become incredibly expensive to find new paying customers. Does the Groupon business model support high cost customer acquisition? Yet to be proved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As in internet marketeer I would interpret your point slightly differently.</p>
<p>Yes, Groupon&#8217;s early subscribers are more profitable than the later ones, but it is also true that the marginal cost of finding new subscribers increases over time quite dramatically. So if the old subscribers become inactive, then it can become incredibly expensive to find new paying customers. Does the Groupon business model support high cost customer acquisition? Yet to be proved.</p>
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		<title>By: TSTS</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32473</link>
		<dc:creator>TSTS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32473</guid>
		<description>OK, I am convinced now. Not that Groupon is worth 10 billion. But Priceline 24 bllion? No way! Maybe buying Groupon and shorting Priceline is the way to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I am convinced now. Not that Groupon is worth 10 billion. But Priceline 24 bllion? No way! Maybe buying Groupon and shorting Priceline is the way to go.</p>
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		<title>By: gwaitersesq</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32471</link>
		<dc:creator>gwaitersesq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32471</guid>
		<description>So what&#039;s the spread on how many people will be in jail within five years of this IPO? Everything about this is terrible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what&#8217;s the spread on how many people will be in jail within five years of this IPO? Everything about this is terrible.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32468</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32468</guid>
		<description>Wow! $70 per e-mail address?

I&#039;ll sell you one of mine for $50.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! $70 per e-mail address?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll sell you one of mine for $50.</p>
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		<title>By: Frwip</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/27/how-to-justify-groupons-valuation/comment-page-1/#comment-32467</link>
		<dc:creator>Frwip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=10778#comment-32467</guid>
		<description>So, you are saying that $10B may be ok as a valuation if Groupon manages to completely change the way it&#039;s doing business after its IPO, to the point that it bears little resemblance to what it&#039;s doing right now, meaning that Groupon&#039;s only real value is its mailing list and some vague customer loyalty?

$70 per email address seems a bit pricey. If someone is willing to spend $70 per customer, I&#039;m pretty sure that someone can do a lot more than what Groupon is making out of each of its customers...

Sorry. Not convinced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you are saying that $10B may be ok as a valuation if Groupon manages to completely change the way it&#8217;s doing business after its IPO, to the point that it bears little resemblance to what it&#8217;s doing right now, meaning that Groupon&#8217;s only real value is its mailing list and some vague customer loyalty?</p>
<p>$70 per email address seems a bit pricey. If someone is willing to spend $70 per customer, I&#8217;m pretty sure that someone can do a lot more than what Groupon is making out of each of its customers&#8230;</p>
<p>Sorry. Not convinced.</p>
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