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	<title>Comments on: How volatility hits pension plans</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: belgraviavillas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-46665</link>
		<dc:creator>belgraviavillas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great Post. I have not been visiting the site recently. Took a visit again and there were some great comments on the site. Excellent post. Keep up the good work.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://belgravia-villa.com.sg&quot;&gt;Belgravia Villas&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Post. I have not been visiting the site recently. Took a visit again and there were some great comments on the site. Excellent post. Keep up the good work.<br />
Belgravia Villas</p>
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		<title>By: jiggawigga</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-41920</link>
		<dc:creator>jiggawigga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fire these investment managers and hire some new ones from Diamond Supply Snapbacks.

http://www.snapback25.com/index.php/diamond-supply-co-snapback-hats.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fire these investment managers and hire some new ones from Diamond Supply Snapbacks.</p>
<p><a href='http://www.snapback25.com/index.php/diamond-supply-co-snapback-hats.html'>http://www.snapback25.com/index.php/diam ond-supply-co-snapback-hats.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: jiggawigga</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-41919</link>
		<dc:creator>jiggawigga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-41919</guid>
		<description>Fire these investment managers and hire some new ones from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.snapback25.com/index.php/diamond-supply-co-snapback-hats.html&quot; rel=&quot;dofollow&quot;&gt;Diamond Supply Snapbacks&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fire these investment managers and hire some new ones from Diamond Supply Snapbacks.</p>
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		<title>By: feitian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-36906</link>
		<dc:creator>feitian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-36906</guid>
		<description>I like tha post. I knew little about this topic before, but now I find that I know a litte. Thank you very much.http://www.discountchristianlouboutinred.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like tha post. I knew little about this topic before, but now I find that I know a litte. Thank you very much.<a href='http://www.discountchristianlouboutinred.com'>http://www.discountchristianloubout inred.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: desimal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33166</link>
		<dc:creator>desimal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33166</guid>
		<description>fire those investment managers! and make sure you give them a good bonus! WHY HAVENT WE LEARNED A THING YET?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fire those investment managers! and make sure you give them a good bonus! WHY HAVENT WE LEARNED A THING YET?!</p>
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		<title>By: DrJJJJ</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33081</link>
		<dc:creator>DrJJJJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33081</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re gambling for high returns, your group should cover the loss, NOT THE TAX PAYER! NO BRAINER!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re gambling for high returns, your group should cover the loss, NOT THE TAX PAYER! NO BRAINER!</p>
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		<title>By: DrJJJJ</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33079</link>
		<dc:creator>DrJJJJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33079</guid>
		<description>Gambling with public pensions is like flirting with dynamite! I&#039;d bet anything California will end up with almost a trillion dollar pension deficit before long-just california! Capitaal preservation is the nak=me of the game now-can you hold on to your principle! double digit ROIs is dreaming/gambling now folks-call it greed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gambling with public pensions is like flirting with dynamite! I&#8217;d bet anything California will end up with almost a trillion dollar pension deficit before long-just california! Capitaal preservation is the nak=me of the game now-can you hold on to your principle! double digit ROIs is dreaming/gambling now folks-call it greed!</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33075</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33075</guid>
		<description>@DAL, from a fundamentals perspective a small rise-and-fall may have no impact at all on the underlying value of the company, yet a larger rise-and-fall can distort operations and truly destroy value.

In a boom-and-bust cycle, there is a tendency to over-expand capacity and (following the bust) end up having to write down plants and inventory. This was deadly for the fiber/telecom industry in 2001.

In a bust-and-boom cycle, there is a strong temptation to pull back on innovation and cut costs, limiting future revenue growth when the rebound comes. (May also run into financing problems.)

Either way, you are likely to end up paying large management bonuses in the &quot;boom&quot; half of the cycle, even if the overall movement is comparatively small.

The price swing can simultaneously reflect value destruction and lead to additional value destruction. The latter is the best argument against market volatility -- it reduces the efficiency of the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DAL, from a fundamentals perspective a small rise-and-fall may have no impact at all on the underlying value of the company, yet a larger rise-and-fall can distort operations and truly destroy value.</p>
<p>In a boom-and-bust cycle, there is a tendency to over-expand capacity and (following the bust) end up having to write down plants and inventory. This was deadly for the fiber/telecom industry in 2001.</p>
<p>In a bust-and-boom cycle, there is a strong temptation to pull back on innovation and cut costs, limiting future revenue growth when the rebound comes. (May also run into financing problems.)</p>
<p>Either way, you are likely to end up paying large management bonuses in the &#8220;boom&#8221; half of the cycle, even if the overall movement is comparatively small.</p>
<p>The price swing can simultaneously reflect value destruction and lead to additional value destruction. The latter is the best argument against market volatility &#8212; it reduces the efficiency of the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: DAL206</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33071</link>
		<dc:creator>DAL206</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33071</guid>
		<description>The problem with a 20% rise-and-fall as compared to a 5% rise-and-fall has nothing to do with volatility.  It has to do with the fact that in the first scenario, there is greater destruction in value.  Percentages are a useful tool for our limited brains to comprehend comparative values, but don&#039;t forget that a percent gain or loss represents an absolute increase or decrease in value.  In your scenario, &quot;volatility&quot; is just a way of describing what happened--volatility didn&#039;t actually &quot;cause&quot; the decline in value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with a 20% rise-and-fall as compared to a 5% rise-and-fall has nothing to do with volatility.  It has to do with the fact that in the first scenario, there is greater destruction in value.  Percentages are a useful tool for our limited brains to comprehend comparative values, but don&#8217;t forget that a percent gain or loss represents an absolute increase or decrease in value.  In your scenario, &#8220;volatility&#8221; is just a way of describing what happened&#8211;volatility didn&#8217;t actually &#8220;cause&#8221; the decline in value.</p>
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		<title>By: Finster</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33050</link>
		<dc:creator>Finster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33050</guid>
		<description>There are very few people and institutions with true holding power today. Even long term investments are presented in quarterly or monthly reports and benchmarked.

Long term outperformance certainly needs regular short term underperformance. Targetting returns that are unachievable on an adequate risk base is a recipe for disaster though. In the words of Benjamin Graham &quot;turning investors into speculators with a speculator&#039;s result.&quot;

The Hawaii Employees’ Retirement System probably is moving into a bracket here that its investors and overseers cannot shoulder. The worst possible decision of course would be to de-risk following a plunge in risk asset value and realising the losses. Reversing course mid way on the down leg consistently is the worst option of all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are very few people and institutions with true holding power today. Even long term investments are presented in quarterly or monthly reports and benchmarked.</p>
<p>Long term outperformance certainly needs regular short term underperformance. Targetting returns that are unachievable on an adequate risk base is a recipe for disaster though. In the words of Benjamin Graham &#8220;turning investors into speculators with a speculator&#8217;s result.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Hawaii Employees’ Retirement System probably is moving into a bracket here that its investors and overseers cannot shoulder. The worst possible decision of course would be to de-risk following a plunge in risk asset value and realising the losses. Reversing course mid way on the down leg consistently is the worst option of all.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33043</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33043</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I&#039;m misreading Felix&#039; assumptions?

I do agree with his concluding lines, &quot;if you overshoot on the way up and you overshoot on the way down, you end up underperforming overall.&quot;

Mathematically, you can imagine a set of inputs for which overshooting on the way up more than makes up for overshooting on the way down. (You shouldn&#039;t simply assume that the deltas sum to zero.)

But more practically, overshooting a large drop in the market is likely to involve massive value destruction, beyond simple market volatility. You can&#039;t ride out the storm if the company you own sinks under the waves.

Moreover, Wall Street has a known bias towards optimism, a known tendency to downplay risks. The calculation that supposedly proves that a riskier company offers a higher expected return may simply be overestimating the upside and underestimating the downside. This is especially true in times of economic turmoil, when optimistic projections are regularly blown to smithereens.

I do agree with the conclusions. I simply hesitate to accept a mathematical &quot;proof&quot; that is strongly dependent on its assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m misreading Felix&#8217; assumptions?</p>
<p>I do agree with his concluding lines, &#8220;if you overshoot on the way up and you overshoot on the way down, you end up underperforming overall.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mathematically, you can imagine a set of inputs for which overshooting on the way up more than makes up for overshooting on the way down. (You shouldn&#8217;t simply assume that the deltas sum to zero.)</p>
<p>But more practically, overshooting a large drop in the market is likely to involve massive value destruction, beyond simple market volatility. You can&#8217;t ride out the storm if the company you own sinks under the waves.</p>
<p>Moreover, Wall Street has a known bias towards optimism, a known tendency to downplay risks. The calculation that supposedly proves that a riskier company offers a higher expected return may simply be overestimating the upside and underestimating the downside. This is especially true in times of economic turmoil, when optimistic projections are regularly blown to smithereens.</p>
<p>I do agree with the conclusions. I simply hesitate to accept a mathematical &#8220;proof&#8221; that is strongly dependent on its assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33041</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33041</guid>
		<description>Auros, my mathematical background is probably stronger than yours. I also understand the danger of reasoning from assumptions that have no basis in reality. Do you?

We agree that the geometric mean of a non-negative sequence is lower than the arithmetic mean of the same sequence. This does have valid applications in finance, particularly in the &quot;gambler&#039;s ruin&quot; paradox. (Any game in which you have a potential return of -100% will eventually leave you broke, no matter what the expected value of the outcomes suggests.)

But Felix seemed to be applying this in a very different manner. He was beginning from the assumption that we are in a flat market. In a flat market, where the long-term return is 0%, the percentage gains will be larger than the percentage losses (for exactly the reason you describe). His mistake, and yours, was in assuming that the arithmetic mean of the returns in a flat market should be zero. Garbage in, garbage out, even if your mathematics is sound.

Maybe financial theory should adjust its choice of metrics? Perhaps if they did so, we would see fewer hedge funds falling prey to gambler&#039;s ruin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Auros, my mathematical background is probably stronger than yours. I also understand the danger of reasoning from assumptions that have no basis in reality. Do you?</p>
<p>We agree that the geometric mean of a non-negative sequence is lower than the arithmetic mean of the same sequence. This does have valid applications in finance, particularly in the &#8220;gambler&#8217;s ruin&#8221; paradox. (Any game in which you have a potential return of -100% will eventually leave you broke, no matter what the expected value of the outcomes suggests.)</p>
<p>But Felix seemed to be applying this in a very different manner. He was beginning from the assumption that we are in a flat market. In a flat market, where the long-term return is 0%, the percentage gains will be larger than the percentage losses (for exactly the reason you describe). His mistake, and yours, was in assuming that the arithmetic mean of the returns in a flat market should be zero. Garbage in, garbage out, even if your mathematics is sound.</p>
<p>Maybe financial theory should adjust its choice of metrics? Perhaps if they did so, we would see fewer hedge funds falling prey to gambler&#8217;s ruin?</p>
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		<title>By: Auros</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33037</link>
		<dc:creator>Auros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 01:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33037</guid>
		<description>Oh, whoops, sorry, in a hurry, forgot to do the &quot;1+r&quot; part of the calculation above.  It of course doesn&#039;t alter the conclusion

(1 + (m+d)) (1 + (m-d)) - 1

( 1 + ((m+d)+(m-d)) + (m+d)(m-d) ) - 1

1 + 2m + (m^2 - d^2)

Whereas with just returning m in both periods, you&#039;d get (1+2m+m^2).  Again, the difference is the -d^2, and you necessarily underperform, and this outcome is totally general.

There&#039;s actually a term for this in financial theory -- volatility drag.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, whoops, sorry, in a hurry, forgot to do the &#8220;1+r&#8221; part of the calculation above.  It of course doesn&#8217;t alter the conclusion</p>
<p>(1 + (m+d)) (1 + (m-d)) &#8211; 1</p>
<p>( 1 + ((m+d)+(m-d)) + (m+d)(m-d) ) &#8211; 1</p>
<p>1 + 2m + (m^2 &#8211; d^2)</p>
<p>Whereas with just returning m in both periods, you&#8217;d get (1+2m+m^2).  Again, the difference is the -d^2, and you necessarily underperform, and this outcome is totally general.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s actually a term for this in financial theory &#8212; volatility drag.</p>
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		<title>By: Auros</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33036</link>
		<dc:creator>Auros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 01:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33036</guid>
		<description>Picking the same up and down around zero is arbitrary, but you guys are wrong on the math here.  A perfectly non-volatile performance -- consistently hitting the average return for a series of time steps -- will produce a higher final return than any other series of returns that could produce the same average.

Just think about two periods, where the average return across the two is mu, but in period 1 we outperform by delta, and in period 2 we underperform by delta:

(mu + delta) (mu - delta) = mu^2 - delta^2

Given that delta^2 must be positive, we know that this return is worse than if we&#039;d had no volatility.

This argument can be extended by induction to any number of periods.

QED.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Picking the same up and down around zero is arbitrary, but you guys are wrong on the math here.  A perfectly non-volatile performance &#8212; consistently hitting the average return for a series of time steps &#8212; will produce a higher final return than any other series of returns that could produce the same average.</p>
<p>Just think about two periods, where the average return across the two is mu, but in period 1 we outperform by delta, and in period 2 we underperform by delta:</p>
<p>(mu + delta) (mu &#8211; delta) = mu^2 &#8211; delta^2</p>
<p>Given that delta^2 must be positive, we know that this return is worse than if we&#8217;d had no volatility.</p>
<p>This argument can be extended by induction to any number of periods.</p>
<p>QED.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/11/how-volatility-hits-pension-plans/comment-page-1/#comment-33030</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=11060#comment-33030</guid>
		<description>Volatility actually *can* be a concern for pension plans, but for another reason... If you are making steady contributions (dollar-cost averaging?) into an &quot;M&quot; shaped market, you end up buying at valuations higher than the terminal point. If you are making steady withdrawals from a &quot;W&quot; shaped market, you are eroding your share balance more rapidly than you would in a steady market.

But that plays out over years (e.g. 1997-2008 for the &quot;M&quot; or 2000-2010 for the &quot;W&quot;). There aren&#039;t enough contributions/withdrawals over shorter periods to make a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Volatility actually *can* be a concern for pension plans, but for another reason&#8230; If you are making steady contributions (dollar-cost averaging?) into an &#8220;M&#8221; shaped market, you end up buying at valuations higher than the terminal point. If you are making steady withdrawals from a &#8220;W&#8221; shaped market, you are eroding your share balance more rapidly than you would in a steady market.</p>
<p>But that plays out over years (e.g. 1997-2008 for the &#8220;M&#8221; or 2000-2010 for the &#8220;W&#8221;). There aren&#8217;t enough contributions/withdrawals over shorter periods to make a difference.</p>
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