Comments on: The improbable Greece plan http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/ A slice of lime in the soda Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:05:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: traducere daneza romana http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-53579 Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:59:29 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-53579 Thanks a lot for providing individuals with such a pleasant possiblity to read in detail from this website. It’s always very good and as well , jam-packed with a great time for me personally and my office peers to visit your web site not less than three times in one week to see the latest tips you have got. And of course, I’m so certainly fulfilled with all the powerful secrets you serve. Some 3 areas in this article are without a doubt the most effective I have had.

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By: Staufer http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36342 Mon, 27 Feb 2012 09:11:13 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36342 1. No one forced Greece into the Euro. Greece forced itself in.
2. No one forced Greece to keep up an arms race with Turkey. That is, and was Greece’s decision.
3. No one forced Greece to overborrow. That was Greece’s decision.
4. No one forces Greece to stay in the Euro. Greece can default completely and exit the Euro.
5. But Greece cannot expect the rest of the EU to keep paying for its bad decisions.

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By: litzcan http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36266 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:41:34 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36266 This is the new type of war that everyone better be aware of. No guns and bombs. Clean. Casualties are not visible anymore, TV channels do not broadcast this type of carnage. It does not generate revenue. No more pictures of killed children. No more remorse.Clean cut.
One could argue that Greeks have done it to themselves.
I argue that the main duty of a ruling class in any nation around the world is to cater to its citizens. When they start to cater to the needs of other country’s citizens it is a result of submitting to a higher power and in the past it was decided in battle. Greece is the first to go that way. Many will follow that path.
Any way you look at this , Greece is defeated.It’s citizens have lost the option of fighting the enemy and that is below any dignity level. Only option is selling what is left of the country at a very low price. They and their children are slaves with no say in the process or in regards to their future. This is a fact of life in the year of 2012. By the way , the new war is on for every nation.

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By: TFF http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36264 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:44:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36264 Jmo2005, if you are being plundered by the people in power, then you need to put new people in power. Is Greece not still a democracy? If not, then you need a revolution.

Either that or sell your sovereignty to the Germans.

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By: Jmo2005 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36261 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:23:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36261 FifthDecade I see your point.You are absolutely right.
All I am trying to tell is that you shouldn’t consider Greeks as some arrogant guys with money they never worked for,refusing to pay their taxes.That goes for many and we are all to blame,but I think it’s fair for all European people to know what brought us here, including Greeks.

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By: Robbedoes http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36240 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:54:41 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36240 So other Euro countries are pumping in the bulk of 240 Billion and they are the bad guys? Do you think the people of these countries were waiting for Greece to be bailed out in times of economic hardship of their own? They are implementing additional austerity just to be able to bail out Greece. Losing ratings and increased cost of lending for government and companies to help out the Greek.

And best of all, the countries criticizing most (UK and US) have contributed next to nothing and worse, hold large quantities of CDS (betting for/against Greece .. GS et al).

It is very easy to criticize, but be assured: come up with a great plan and it will be implemented.

Problem is, Greece has been a failed state for decades (centuries?) and will probably continue to do so for decades to come. The problems of Greece do not originate from the Euro, it merely made it easier for them to continue and even accelerate their lifestyle (due much lower interest). Call it culture, whatever. Promises are meaningless, they may ‘work’ 2100 hrs a year but they aren’t producing (even African countries are doing far better), corruption is not only accepted it’s a way of life, etc. etc.. You are not going to change that by pumping in additional funds, every Euro or Dollar is wasted from the start.

All you here from the people of Greece is ‘insulted’, no one accepts any form of responsibility. Worse, politicians (Samaras et al) already implied that after the elections in april every deal was up for ‘renegotiation’.

Europe’s politicians are fully aware of the Greek ‘ethos’ and therefore a guardian is appointed over the bailout money. Not because they like it, but the Greek politicians (who have been appointed over and over again by the voters of Greece.. who apparently enjoyed having Santa-Claus at the helm) have proven themselves incapable of doing so. No insult, plain hard facts, and its denial is the very problem of the Greek ‘ethos\': It is just everybody’s fault but the people of Greece.

With this new package effectively only the Greek bonds and the recapitalization of Greek banks is guaranteed. The ‘ethos’ of the people of Greece has to change, and the only ones who can do that are the people of Greece. It won’t be easy, but you just can’t keep on spending more than you earn. Europe is not taking responsibility for this process; it merely provides a framework in which the people of Greece have a fair fighting chance. Hard? No doubt, but the alternative is far worse.

Europe doesn’t impose terms per se; they impose terms in case the people of Greece want to keep on lending their money. If they don’t like the terms, by all means, exit the Euro zone and handle your problems your own way. It probably will be a whole lot messier than doing it the European way, but no-one in Europe will even try to stop you.

And implying WW2 debts need to be repaid.. Why not WW1, why not slavery, why not the occupation of Hawaii/Philippines, why not the extermination of Indians, why not the Roman Empire? How far back do you want to go? These phrases are just a lousy excuse for incompetence.

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By: dors4626 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36230 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:11:58 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36230 On a further note, just to consider the vast insult added to injury, just know that Germany owes GREECE over $500Billion.

See the following:

http://www.greece.org/blogs/wwii/?page_i d=220

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By: FifthDecade http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36229 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:08:59 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36229 I saw an interesting interview with some guy from the Institute of International Finance who represent bondholders with €100 billion exposure to Greek debt who said the situation was accept a 53.5% haircut or a 70% haircut. They were going to push for universal acceptance of the latest deal on the basis that it was in their interests to do so.

@Jmo2005 While I respect and understand the feelings of those Greeks on low incomes, in a democracy you cannot just wipe your hands and blame someone else: you as the general public voted for the governments who promised you more goodies than those who didn’t. It’s a hard lesson to learn that goodies always have to be paid for, but that’s democracy for you.

Personally I am not a great fan of austerity in recessions, I think it is far better to apply it in times of plenty, build up reserves that are not paid out as tax breaks for the wealthy, and then use these reserves in times of famine. Heck, they even knew about that in Biblical times! But what happens these days? The total reverse, and its bonkers.

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By: dors4626 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36228 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:08:11 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36228 I urge you all to read Mikis Theodorakis’ “An Open Letter to Public Opinion: The Truth About Greece.” It will set you straight on what has really happened.

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By: geovla http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/02/21/the-improbable-greece-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-36227 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 01:22:58 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=12234#comment-36227 “bondholders have to guess what might happen if they fail to tender into the exchange”

This is a joke. Quite clearly Greece said it would legislate to allow it to enforce losses on bondholders who do not take part voluntarily.

If bondholders are forced to take a loss – involuntarily – that is a credit default. If this is not a default – then what in the world would classify as a default? The Wall Street Bankers running the ISDA are playing games with everyone. Their only concern if the profits of their members. If they don’t payout on the CDS’s – why would any investor every want to purchase a CDS in the future.

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