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	<title>Comments on: Business ethics need to move beyond what&#8217;s illegal</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41929</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41929</guid>
		<description>The problem with the golden rule in business is that every profit maximiser expects everyone else also to be a profit maximiser and hence justifies his actions by appealing to a level playing field in competition.

In other words, as a profit maximiser I use mis-leading/confusing commercials/pricing structures or whatever. Since I am highly sophisticated in the world of pricing structures I expect the same to happen to me whenever I am on the receiving end.

Therefore, I do unto others what I am happy to have done to me.

What we need is a little Rawls thrown in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance
We need to protect the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.
So it needs to be the case that retail investors for example can&#039;t buy highly complex derivatives.

Again, with the rules/laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the golden rule in business is that every profit maximiser expects everyone else also to be a profit maximiser and hence justifies his actions by appealing to a level playing field in competition.</p>
<p>In other words, as a profit maximiser I use mis-leading/confusing commercials/pricing structures or whatever. Since I am highly sophisticated in the world of pricing structures I expect the same to happen to me whenever I am on the receiving end.</p>
<p>Therefore, I do unto others what I am happy to have done to me.</p>
<p>What we need is a little Rawls thrown in there.<br />
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ign orance</a><br />
We need to protect the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.<br />
So it needs to be the case that retail investors for example can&#8217;t buy highly complex derivatives.</p>
<p>Again, with the rules/laws.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41927</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41927</guid>
		<description>@TinyTim, CDN suggested that Christianity contains no ethical code beyond &quot;do not steal/kill&quot;, which is why I responded as I did. &quot;Love your neighbor, as you love yourself&quot; is an easy counterexample.

Moreover, as you point out, it predates Christianity in all traditions INCLUDING Judaism, with references in the Old Testament and Talmud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

You could even argue that it is the essential guiding principle of &quot;global humanism&quot;, at least as I understand the concept. And to bring it back to the original topic, it would suffice as a basis for business ethics.

Is that too much freight to load onto a simple one-sentence concept?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TinyTim, CDN suggested that Christianity contains no ethical code beyond &#8220;do not steal/kill&#8221;, which is why I responded as I did. &#8220;Love your neighbor, as you love yourself&#8221; is an easy counterexample.</p>
<p>Moreover, as you point out, it predates Christianity in all traditions INCLUDING Judaism, with references in the Old Testament and Talmud.</p>
<p><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule</a> </p>
<p>You could even argue that it is the essential guiding principle of &#8220;global humanism&#8221;, at least as I understand the concept. And to bring it back to the original topic, it would suffice as a basis for business ethics.</p>
<p>Is that too much freight to load onto a simple one-sentence concept?</p>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41926</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41926</guid>
		<description>@TFF &quot;Love thy neighbour&quot; is just Christianity&#039;s version of The Golden Rule and is hardly original!

Although I wholeheartedly disagree with Frwip that it is not a good maxim.

It should be the only maxim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TFF &#8220;Love thy neighbour&#8221; is just Christianity&#8217;s version of The Golden Rule and is hardly original!</p>
<p>Although I wholeheartedly disagree with Frwip that it is not a good maxim.</p>
<p>It should be the only maxim.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41923</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41923</guid>
		<description>@Frwip, I beg to differ, but that is beside the point...

Our society has moved beyond those roots, and needs a basis for ethics that does NOT depend on a particular religious tradition. Global humanism might suffice, but instead we see educators shying away from the matter entirely. And unfettered individualism won&#039;t cut it.

As &quot;How Matters&quot; writes, ethics needs to be taught from an early age, and integrated with the rest of the curriculum. Ask students repeatedly, &quot;How do your choices affect the class? How do your choices affect your community? How do they affect broader society?&quot; Perhaps eventually they will begin to ask themselves that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Frwip, I beg to differ, but that is beside the point&#8230;</p>
<p>Our society has moved beyond those roots, and needs a basis for ethics that does NOT depend on a particular religious tradition. Global humanism might suffice, but instead we see educators shying away from the matter entirely. And unfettered individualism won&#8217;t cut it.</p>
<p>As &#8220;How Matters&#8221; writes, ethics needs to be taught from an early age, and integrated with the rest of the curriculum. Ask students repeatedly, &#8220;How do your choices affect the class? How do your choices affect your community? How do they affect broader society?&#8221; Perhaps eventually they will begin to ask themselves that?</p>
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		<title>By: Frwip</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41922</link>
		<dc:creator>Frwip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41922</guid>
		<description>@TFF &quot;Love thy neighbor&quot; is not Judeo-Christian. It&#039;s pure New Testament juice, so scratch the first part of Judeo-Christian and its applicability is rather limited anyway. It&#039;s not a particularly good maxim to base one&#039;s life upon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TFF &#8220;Love thy neighbor&#8221; is not Judeo-Christian. It&#8217;s pure New Testament juice, so scratch the first part of Judeo-Christian and its applicability is rather limited anyway. It&#8217;s not a particularly good maxim to base one&#8217;s life upon.</p>
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		<title>By: Sparrow_67</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41914</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparrow_67</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41914</guid>
		<description>@CaptnCrunch

After 20 years of watching the sheep slaughter in civil service, I&#039;m ready for a great company.  Got openings?

I&#039;ve observed all levels of government treating people as expendable and easily replaceable; with management behavior only getting worse in these economic woes.

Keep an eye on Florida industry.  You&#039;re likely to see a revival of labor unions in the next few years because the private industry insists on viewing employees as liabilities instead of their greatest asset.

Take care of your people and they will take care of you.  This concept applies to customers and employees.  A little off topic, but if people focused on taking care of people first and how fat their wallet is second the latter would take care of itself, and we wouldn&#039;t be having this conversation about ethics.

Good luck in calibrating societies moral compass.  Glad to see someone is trying.  Not really sure what good ethics look like anymore; at least around central Florida.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@CaptnCrunch</p>
<p>After 20 years of watching the sheep slaughter in civil service, I&#8217;m ready for a great company.  Got openings?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve observed all levels of government treating people as expendable and easily replaceable; with management behavior only getting worse in these economic woes.</p>
<p>Keep an eye on Florida industry.  You&#8217;re likely to see a revival of labor unions in the next few years because the private industry insists on viewing employees as liabilities instead of their greatest asset.</p>
<p>Take care of your people and they will take care of you.  This concept applies to customers and employees.  A little off topic, but if people focused on taking care of people first and how fat their wallet is second the latter would take care of itself, and we wouldn&#8217;t be having this conversation about ethics.</p>
<p>Good luck in calibrating societies moral compass.  Glad to see someone is trying.  Not really sure what good ethics look like anymore; at least around central Florida.</p>
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		<title>By: CaptnCrunch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41908</link>
		<dc:creator>CaptnCrunch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41908</guid>
		<description>You can shear a sheep many times, but butcher it only once. When business schools teach that lesson, stewardship not pillaging, then the circle will turn...for awhile.

In the meantime my employees are gold, our customers and vendors are our friends, and all will be treated fairly and with respect on my watch. That&#039;s just good business.

Good article Felix, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can shear a sheep many times, but butcher it only once. When business schools teach that lesson, stewardship not pillaging, then the circle will turn&#8230;for awhile.</p>
<p>In the meantime my employees are gold, our customers and vendors are our friends, and all will be treated fairly and with respect on my watch. That&#8217;s just good business.</p>
<p>Good article Felix, thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: How_Matters</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41907</link>
		<dc:creator>How_Matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41907</guid>
		<description>A thoughtful and timely article, Felix. I also appreciate the quality and thoughtfulness of the comments it has provoked. 

I have three perspectives to share which I hope can help inform and stimulate the conversation about this important subject. 

The first is a perspective from someone who has taught and done research in business ethics at a business school which really cares about and promotes the centrality of ethics in the business curriculum and community.

The second perspective is that of a former commercial litigation lawyer who changed career direction to try to help companies focus more proactively on ethics and values as well as their legal obligations.

The final perspective is that of someone now working for an organization that has conducted global research with nearly 40,000 people which shows why companies, their employees and other stakeholders, and society as a whole are all better off when businesses focus on HOW they do what they do, not simply on achieving the goals themselves. 

To the first point, from my time on staff at the Center for Business Ethics at Bentley University I can vouch for level of student engagement and the teaching effectiveness of integrating ethics throughout the entire business curriculum, as opposed to delivering stand-alone instruction. For many years (certainly long before Enron and all the scandals that have followed), Bentley professors from the various business disciplines have participated in an in-depth week-long program that gives them the knowledge, capabilities, and tools to educate students about the ethical dimensions of business issues, decisions and behaviors within the specific context of each discipline. This not only raises ethical awareness and enhances skills in ethical reasoning and decision making,it helps shape leaders who can cultivate robust ethical cultures within their organizations while being sensitive and proactive with regard to the broader responsibilities of business in society.

The second perspective reinforces my view that, over the past 10 years, doing more than you are legally required has become an essential component of demonstrating to investors, regulators, customers and the public that you are a trustworthy business and worthy of retaining your license to operate. The increasing value of a relational, as opposed to merely transactional, approach to doing business is becoming increasingly recognized. Michael Porter at Harvard Business School -- of all places -- has shown by his concept of shared value that business does not have to be a zero-sum game.

Finally, I offer the point of view that we need to go beyond the compliance and risk management mindset not just because it&#039;s good for business or, more importantly, because it&#039;s the right thing to do -- no, we have to do it because what&#039;s at stake is nothing less than the sustainability of business itself -- now the world&#039;s primary engine of value, wealth and social wellbeing. In the interests of full disclosure, I should mention that I work for a company, LRN Corporation, whose mission is premised on the idea of inspiring &quot;principled performance.&quot; Ensuring that companies and their employees comply with the laws that apply to them globally is critical, but insufficient. Of particular importance is the role of trust, company purpose and core values as they harmonize with leadership and governance systems to help define unique corporate cultures. Our research -- published in &quot;The HOW Report&quot; -- shows that corporate culture is a critical determinant of behaviors (ethical or otherwise) and is capable of being measured, analyzed and influenced in a strategic way. Furthermore, we now have hard and compelling data from 18 countries on how governance, culture and leadership impact business performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A thoughtful and timely article, Felix. I also appreciate the quality and thoughtfulness of the comments it has provoked. </p>
<p>I have three perspectives to share which I hope can help inform and stimulate the conversation about this important subject. </p>
<p>The first is a perspective from someone who has taught and done research in business ethics at a business school which really cares about and promotes the centrality of ethics in the business curriculum and community.</p>
<p>The second perspective is that of a former commercial litigation lawyer who changed career direction to try to help companies focus more proactively on ethics and values as well as their legal obligations.</p>
<p>The final perspective is that of someone now working for an organization that has conducted global research with nearly 40,000 people which shows why companies, their employees and other stakeholders, and society as a whole are all better off when businesses focus on HOW they do what they do, not simply on achieving the goals themselves. </p>
<p>To the first point, from my time on staff at the Center for Business Ethics at Bentley University I can vouch for level of student engagement and the teaching effectiveness of integrating ethics throughout the entire business curriculum, as opposed to delivering stand-alone instruction. For many years (certainly long before Enron and all the scandals that have followed), Bentley professors from the various business disciplines have participated in an in-depth week-long program that gives them the knowledge, capabilities, and tools to educate students about the ethical dimensions of business issues, decisions and behaviors within the specific context of each discipline. This not only raises ethical awareness and enhances skills in ethical reasoning and decision making,it helps shape leaders who can cultivate robust ethical cultures within their organizations while being sensitive and proactive with regard to the broader responsibilities of business in society.</p>
<p>The second perspective reinforces my view that, over the past 10 years, doing more than you are legally required has become an essential component of demonstrating to investors, regulators, customers and the public that you are a trustworthy business and worthy of retaining your license to operate. The increasing value of a relational, as opposed to merely transactional, approach to doing business is becoming increasingly recognized. Michael Porter at Harvard Business School &#8212; of all places &#8212; has shown by his concept of shared value that business does not have to be a zero-sum game.</p>
<p>Finally, I offer the point of view that we need to go beyond the compliance and risk management mindset not just because it&#8217;s good for business or, more importantly, because it&#8217;s the right thing to do &#8212; no, we have to do it because what&#8217;s at stake is nothing less than the sustainability of business itself &#8212; now the world&#8217;s primary engine of value, wealth and social wellbeing. In the interests of full disclosure, I should mention that I work for a company, LRN Corporation, whose mission is premised on the idea of inspiring &#8220;principled performance.&#8221; Ensuring that companies and their employees comply with the laws that apply to them globally is critical, but insufficient. Of particular importance is the role of trust, company purpose and core values as they harmonize with leadership and governance systems to help define unique corporate cultures. Our research &#8212; published in &#8220;The HOW Report&#8221; &#8212; shows that corporate culture is a critical determinant of behaviors (ethical or otherwise) and is capable of being measured, analyzed and influenced in a strategic way. Furthermore, we now have hard and compelling data from 18 countries on how governance, culture and leadership impact business performance.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41905</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41905</guid>
		<description>@CDN_Rebel, you forget &quot;Love thy neighbor?&quot; Will refrain from comment on the rest of your hateful bigotry, because you clearly don&#039;t have a clue what you are talking about.

Society is increasingly secular. I understand this and was not suggesting that we ought to somehow try to reverse this. Yet absent religious law, what is the basis for ethics? What basis CAN we develop in a secular society?

&quot;Global humanism&quot; will work, if you mean what I think you mean. But the emphasis needs to be on &quot;global&quot; rather than &quot;individual&quot;. You cannot build a workable system of ethics around the concept, &quot;Give me mine and **** the rest of you.&quot; And unfortunately, that is where the American center is today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@CDN_Rebel, you forget &#8220;Love thy neighbor?&#8221; Will refrain from comment on the rest of your hateful bigotry, because you clearly don&#8217;t have a clue what you are talking about.</p>
<p>Society is increasingly secular. I understand this and was not suggesting that we ought to somehow try to reverse this. Yet absent religious law, what is the basis for ethics? What basis CAN we develop in a secular society?</p>
<p>&#8220;Global humanism&#8221; will work, if you mean what I think you mean. But the emphasis needs to be on &#8220;global&#8221; rather than &#8220;individual&#8221;. You cannot build a workable system of ethics around the concept, &#8220;Give me mine and **** the rest of you.&#8221; And unfortunately, that is where the American center is today.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41897</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41897</guid>
		<description>+1 Decatur

@lucy, there are still plenty of kids growing up with a strong moral foundation. But most of them choose careers through which they can contribute to society, rather than careers designed first and foremost for self-enrichment.

@worm, we have traditionally embraced a Judeo/Christian religious basis for a code of ethics. But these days that is not politically correct, so instruction in ethics has shifted to asking questions without offering answers.

There is a working secular basis for ethics, but it relies on the concept of &quot;societal good&quot; (perhaps reinforced by the concept of &quot;social contract&quot;). Hard to push that against a mindset of rampant individualism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>+1 Decatur</p>
<p>@lucy, there are still plenty of kids growing up with a strong moral foundation. But most of them choose careers through which they can contribute to society, rather than careers designed first and foremost for self-enrichment.</p>
<p>@worm, we have traditionally embraced a Judeo/Christian religious basis for a code of ethics. But these days that is not politically correct, so instruction in ethics has shifted to asking questions without offering answers.</p>
<p>There is a working secular basis for ethics, but it relies on the concept of &#8220;societal good&#8221; (perhaps reinforced by the concept of &#8220;social contract&#8221;). Hard to push that against a mindset of rampant individualism.</p>
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		<title>By: lucy36</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41893</link>
		<dc:creator>lucy36</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41893</guid>
		<description>I hate to say this but by the time these kids have hit business school you have already lost most of them.

We live in an &quot;ends justify any means world&quot;. When things get tough, the first thing suspended is the rule of law. We have seen this in action everywhere over the last 12 years.

This article from the NY Times got me thinking http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/education/seeking-academic-edge-teenagers-abuse-stimulants.html?pagewanted=all, about how kids are explicitly being told it is okay to cheat to get into the right collage. Their parents look the other way, and their peer group are all doing the same thing so they don&#039;t &quot;lose their edge&quot;.

So you are telling me after cheating since grade 10 to get into the &quot;right collage&quot;, so they can get the &quot;right job&quot; at Goldman, that all the sudden these now young adults are going to start observing moral lines. All of the sudden they are going to ignore &quot;the edge&quot; their peer group has. 

It doesn&#039;t matter what biz school teaches these kids with regard to ethics. They have been told for so long that they are special, that it is okay to cheat if everyone is doing it and that it is necessary to keep the playing field level, that a biz school course in ethics is something to pass, not to incorporate into ones world view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to say this but by the time these kids have hit business school you have already lost most of them.</p>
<p>We live in an &#8220;ends justify any means world&#8221;. When things get tough, the first thing suspended is the rule of law. We have seen this in action everywhere over the last 12 years.</p>
<p>This article from the NY Times got me thinking <a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/education/seeking-academic-edge-teenagers-abuse-stimulants.html?pagewanted=all,'>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/educat ion/seeking-academic-edge-teenagers-abus e-stimulants.html?pagewanted=all,</a> about how kids are explicitly being told it is okay to cheat to get into the right collage. Their parents look the other way, and their peer group are all doing the same thing so they don&#8217;t &#8220;lose their edge&#8221;.</p>
<p>So you are telling me after cheating since grade 10 to get into the &#8220;right collage&#8221;, so they can get the &#8220;right job&#8221; at Goldman, that all the sudden these now young adults are going to start observing moral lines. All of the sudden they are going to ignore &#8220;the edge&#8221; their peer group has. </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter what biz school teaches these kids with regard to ethics. They have been told for so long that they are special, that it is okay to cheat if everyone is doing it and that it is necessary to keep the playing field level, that a biz school course in ethics is something to pass, not to incorporate into ones world view.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41892</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41892</guid>
		<description>Decatur, your words made my day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Decatur, your words made my day.</p>
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		<title>By: FifthDecade</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41891</link>
		<dc:creator>FifthDecade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41891</guid>
		<description>Simple ethics: if everyone wins, it&#039;s ethical, if what you do hurts someone, it&#039;s unethical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simple ethics: if everyone wins, it&#8217;s ethical, if what you do hurts someone, it&#8217;s unethical.</p>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41890</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41890</guid>
		<description>&quot;Acting as ethically as possible&quot;...
I think this is an incredibly tough step change in attitude that will probably never happen.

Un-ethical behaviour is absolutely rife in any for-profit organisation.
Particularly with regard to any company dealing with non-sophisticated retail customers.

In fact - I would go further. I think profit maximisation DEMANDS unethical behaviour.
Any salesman or purchasing manager has an extremely loose relationship with &quot;the truth&quot;.
That&#039;s how they get more sales than the other guy and negotiate the best prices.

Take some everyday examples: car salesmen and advertising.

Ethically it is the right thing to do NOT to load up a car with a bunch of worthless extras with astronomical margins (metallic paint/sat nav/gap insurance) by claiming &quot;everyone takes it&quot; or &quot;you can&#039;t resell the car without it&quot;.

Ethically you should advertise with a picture of a REAL Big Mac or a de-odourant with some fat smelly bloke.
Perhaps the University of Phoenix could show average debt vs. unemployment for their &quot;university&quot; versus others.

It&#039;s all a big con.
And that isn&#039;t going to change any time soon.

That&#039;s why we have to have laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Acting as ethically as possible&#8221;&#8230;<br />
I think this is an incredibly tough step change in attitude that will probably never happen.</p>
<p>Un-ethical behaviour is absolutely rife in any for-profit organisation.<br />
Particularly with regard to any company dealing with non-sophisticated retail customers.</p>
<p>In fact &#8211; I would go further. I think profit maximisation DEMANDS unethical behaviour.<br />
Any salesman or purchasing manager has an extremely loose relationship with &#8220;the truth&#8221;.<br />
That&#8217;s how they get more sales than the other guy and negotiate the best prices.</p>
<p>Take some everyday examples: car salesmen and advertising.</p>
<p>Ethically it is the right thing to do NOT to load up a car with a bunch of worthless extras with astronomical margins (metallic paint/sat nav/gap insurance) by claiming &#8220;everyone takes it&#8221; or &#8220;you can&#8217;t resell the car without it&#8221;.</p>
<p>Ethically you should advertise with a picture of a REAL Big Mac or a de-odourant with some fat smelly bloke.<br />
Perhaps the University of Phoenix could show average debt vs. unemployment for their &#8220;university&#8221; versus others.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all a big con.<br />
And that isn&#8217;t going to change any time soon.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why we have to have laws.</p>
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		<title>By: JustJustin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/18/business-ethics-need-to-move-beyond-whats-illegal/comment-page-1/#comment-41888</link>
		<dc:creator>JustJustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=16271#comment-41888</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the interesting piece Felix, which I appreciate, as a philosophy professor. I&#039;m not convinced however, that telling students what to do will make them do it. It seems rather that students (who are people too) would need to make their own choices. Teachers can perhaps only give them the tools to do so. But knowledge never made anyone do the right thing. Plato argues that we need &quot;good laws&quot;; and Aristotle argues that we need to learn the &quot;good habits&quot; of following the &quot;good laws.&quot;

We must however, also admit that, if America has decided to normalize any non-criminal behavior (that is, allow an action not explicitly forbidden by law), then it is in the hands of legislators to limit business, to regulate and police. What we currently have, is not only a complete failure of economics--but an absolute failure of politics. America loves the wild west myth (although it serves only a small number of individual interests) and has translated it into business terms. Too bad politicians aren&#039;t willing or able to do the job of sheriff. Maybe it is because they are in bed with the corporate criminals.

And at the end of the day, do we not need to ask whether business as a whole is ethical? If seeking profit can be ethically accomplished? Or is business (at least in its capitalist form) not inherently unethical? If so, then teaching business students ethics is an oxymoron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the interesting piece Felix, which I appreciate, as a philosophy professor. I&#8217;m not convinced however, that telling students what to do will make them do it. It seems rather that students (who are people too) would need to make their own choices. Teachers can perhaps only give them the tools to do so. But knowledge never made anyone do the right thing. Plato argues that we need &#8220;good laws&#8221;; and Aristotle argues that we need to learn the &#8220;good habits&#8221; of following the &#8220;good laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>We must however, also admit that, if America has decided to normalize any non-criminal behavior (that is, allow an action not explicitly forbidden by law), then it is in the hands of legislators to limit business, to regulate and police. What we currently have, is not only a complete failure of economics&#8211;but an absolute failure of politics. America loves the wild west myth (although it serves only a small number of individual interests) and has translated it into business terms. Too bad politicians aren&#8217;t willing or able to do the job of sheriff. Maybe it is because they are in bed with the corporate criminals.</p>
<p>And at the end of the day, do we not need to ask whether business as a whole is ethical? If seeking profit can be ethically accomplished? Or is business (at least in its capitalist form) not inherently unethical? If so, then teaching business students ethics is an oxymoron.</p>
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