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	<title>Comments on: Why Cash WinFall is a model for future lottery games</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42587</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42587</guid>
		<description>&quot;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&quot;

Sorry but that is 100% wrong.
If you are down 40% then you can&#039;t be up 15%.

Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.

This is a terrible post.

The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.

If the professionals hadn&#039;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.

This is very simple maths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry but that is 100% wrong.<br />
If you are down 40% then you can&#8217;t be up 15%.</p>
<p>Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.</p>
<p>This is a terrible post.</p>
<p>The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.</p>
<p>If the professionals hadn&#8217;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.</p>
<p>This is very simple maths.</p>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42586</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42586</guid>
		<description>&quot;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&quot;

Sorry but that is 100% wrong.
If you are down 40% then you can&#039;t be up 15%.

Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.

This is a terrible post.

The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.

If the professionals hadn&#039;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.

This is very simple maths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry but that is 100% wrong.<br />
If you are down 40% then you can&#8217;t be up 15%.</p>
<p>Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.</p>
<p>This is a terrible post.</p>
<p>The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.</p>
<p>If the professionals hadn&#8217;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.</p>
<p>This is very simple maths.</p>
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		<title>By: TinyTim1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42585</link>
		<dc:creator>TinyTim1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42585</guid>
		<description>&quot;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&quot;

Sorry but that is 100% wrong.
If you are down 40% then you can&#039;t be up 15%.

Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.

This is a terrible post.

The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.

If the professionals hadn&#039;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.

This is very simple maths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Cash WinFall was also a 40% tax on the rich professional bettors who played only during roll-down weeks&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry but that is 100% wrong.<br />
If you are down 40% then you can&#8217;t be up 15%.</p>
<p>Cash Windfall was an EVEN-MORE highly-regressive tax than other lotteries.</p>
<p>This is a terrible post.</p>
<p>The losers from non-jackpot weeks were subsidising the professionals.</p>
<p>If the professionals hadn&#8217;t played then the regular non-professionals would have shared more of the tickle-down from the had-to-be-won jackpot money.</p>
<p>This is very simple maths.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: k9quaint</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42584</link>
		<dc:creator>k9quaint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42584</guid>
		<description>State sponsored lotteries are usually more about psychology than math. As long as the lottery profits and the proceeds are used by local governments for projects with social benefits (a dubious premise in MA), it should attempt to maximize revenue. It boils down to a simple question about human nature:
Is it better to tax someone 40% and have them be happy to pay the tax? Or is it better to tax them 24% and have them be furious that they must pay it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>State sponsored lotteries are usually more about psychology than math. As long as the lottery profits and the proceeds are used by local governments for projects with social benefits (a dubious premise in MA), it should attempt to maximize revenue. It boils down to a simple question about human nature:<br />
Is it better to tax someone 40% and have them be happy to pay the tax? Or is it better to tax them 24% and have them be furious that they must pay it?</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42582</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42582</guid>
		<description>Curmudgeon, you have some good points there. I would prefer not to sponsor gambling. I would especially prefer not to spend money on advertising promoting gambling.

The Massachusetts Lottery is a crooked organization, a tool for the self-enrichment of political hacks. So I definitely am inclined to treat anything they do with skepticism.

But beyond that, I disagree that the purpose of the state lottery should be to maximize revenues. If it provides a legitimate service by offering an honest game, then that ought to be the focus. The money raised should be secondary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curmudgeon, you have some good points there. I would prefer not to sponsor gambling. I would especially prefer not to spend money on advertising promoting gambling.</p>
<p>The Massachusetts Lottery is a crooked organization, a tool for the self-enrichment of political hacks. So I definitely am inclined to treat anything they do with skepticism.</p>
<p>But beyond that, I disagree that the purpose of the state lottery should be to maximize revenues. If it provides a legitimate service by offering an honest game, then that ought to be the focus. The money raised should be secondary.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42578</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42578</guid>
		<description>Yes, TFF, I was incorrect in my last post.  But reducing the payout may have other undesirable characteristics from the standpoint of maximizing revenue.  I dislike gambling and especially government-sponsored lotteries.  But I&#039;m in a minority, so the only way I can show my dislike is by not participating.  I&#039;m also an applied mathematician by training, and there is no logic to gambling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, TFF, I was incorrect in my last post.  But reducing the payout may have other undesirable characteristics from the standpoint of maximizing revenue.  I dislike gambling and especially government-sponsored lotteries.  But I&#8217;m in a minority, so the only way I can show my dislike is by not participating.  I&#8217;m also an applied mathematician by training, and there is no logic to gambling.</p>
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		<title>By: BarryKelly</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42575</link>
		<dc:creator>BarryKelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 11:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42575</guid>
		<description>I think you completely missed the point here, Felix, and you don&#039;t frequently do that.

The outrage doesn&#039;t come from the state not making enough money. It comes from the fact that having access to extra capital increases the probability of winning disproportionately, such that your expected payout is positive; and that payout comes at the expense of people who can&#039;t follow the same strategy. Sure, only buying tickets on the roll down weeks would have expected positive return, but you can&#039;t depend on actually making a profit in a reasonable timescale without buying a whole lot of tickets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you completely missed the point here, Felix, and you don&#8217;t frequently do that.</p>
<p>The outrage doesn&#8217;t come from the state not making enough money. It comes from the fact that having access to extra capital increases the probability of winning disproportionately, such that your expected payout is positive; and that payout comes at the expense of people who can&#8217;t follow the same strategy. Sure, only buying tickets on the roll down weeks would have expected positive return, but you can&#8217;t depend on actually making a profit in a reasonable timescale without buying a whole lot of tickets.</p>
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		<title>By: y2kurtus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42571</link>
		<dc:creator>y2kurtus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42571</guid>
		<description>Felix is exactly right Cash Winfall is one of the best designed lotteries which has ever existed. 

The state of Mass advantaged itself in two ways:

#1 even before the game changing globe articles the word was out on the street that orginized syndicates were playing the lottery because it was &quot;profitable.&quot; This pulled in tens of thousands of small fish. 

#2 Lots of the &quot;smart money&quot; was comming in from out of state. It&#039;s rare for a state to pull in serious outside money into a local lottery. This point was slyly left out of the inspector generals report Mass was tickled pink that out of state players were dumping money into Mass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix is exactly right Cash Winfall is one of the best designed lotteries which has ever existed. </p>
<p>The state of Mass advantaged itself in two ways:</p>
<p>#1 even before the game changing globe articles the word was out on the street that orginized syndicates were playing the lottery because it was &#8220;profitable.&#8221; This pulled in tens of thousands of small fish. </p>
<p>#2 Lots of the &#8220;smart money&#8221; was comming in from out of state. It&#8217;s rare for a state to pull in serious outside money into a local lottery. This point was slyly left out of the inspector generals report Mass was tickled pink that out of state players were dumping money into Mass.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42569</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42569</guid>
		<description>Nathan and circus put it better than I did...

Curmudgeon, Nathan is already subtracting the $40M from the revenues. You can forgo that revenue, and by reducing the payout rate come up with a scenario that is still better for both the small-time gamblers and for the state.

Felix may be right that this approach is attractive to lottery officials. They aren&#039;t interested in giving money to the towns. They aren&#039;t interested in returning money to their bettors. Their sole interest is to increase the revenue stream, and thereby justify their own worthless lives. (I take that back. They are occasionally interested in funding their political campaigns with those revenues under the guise of &quot;advertising&quot;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan and circus put it better than I did&#8230;</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, Nathan is already subtracting the $40M from the revenues. You can forgo that revenue, and by reducing the payout rate come up with a scenario that is still better for both the small-time gamblers and for the state.</p>
<p>Felix may be right that this approach is attractive to lottery officials. They aren&#8217;t interested in giving money to the towns. They aren&#8217;t interested in returning money to their bettors. Their sole interest is to increase the revenue stream, and thereby justify their own worthless lives. (I take that back. They are occasionally interested in funding their political campaigns with those revenues under the guise of &#8220;advertising&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan_M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42568</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan_M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42568</guid>
		<description>Curmudgeon, the basic point is that the state could make more and the small times players could also make more without the $40m revenue from the sophisticated players.

It&#039;s better for both the state and the small time players for the lottery to be structured better and have $260m in revenue than it is to have the existing structure and an additional $40m in revenue from sophisticated players.

The existing structure may have maximizing lottery tickets sales, but that is not the goal. The goal is to maximize proceeds to the state and that goal was not achieved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curmudgeon, the basic point is that the state could make more and the small times players could also make more without the $40m revenue from the sophisticated players.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s better for both the state and the small time players for the lottery to be structured better and have $260m in revenue than it is to have the existing structure and an additional $40m in revenue from sophisticated players.</p>
<p>The existing structure may have maximizing lottery tickets sales, but that is not the goal. The goal is to maximize proceeds to the state and that goal was not achieved.</p>
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		<title>By: SaulTann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42567</link>
		<dc:creator>SaulTann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42567</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like the state-owned gambling business. If we&#039;re going to be socialist and all, let&#039;s do that with more useful industries. 

Those picayune transactions, as you call them, actually matter if you want the state-owned gambling industry to be both fair and perceived to be fair. You want to build a lottery game that facilitates large consortiums and creates business practices to make it easy, that&#039;s one thing. But to let proprietors of the stores in which lottery tickets are being sold cut corners on their own, that starts to create the beginnings of a corrupt environment. And that&#039;s just something I don&#039;t want my government doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t like the state-owned gambling business. If we&#8217;re going to be socialist and all, let&#8217;s do that with more useful industries. </p>
<p>Those picayune transactions, as you call them, actually matter if you want the state-owned gambling industry to be both fair and perceived to be fair. You want to build a lottery game that facilitates large consortiums and creates business practices to make it easy, that&#8217;s one thing. But to let proprietors of the stores in which lottery tickets are being sold cut corners on their own, that starts to create the beginnings of a corrupt environment. And that&#8217;s just something I don&#8217;t want my government doing.</p>
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		<title>By: circusricardo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42566</link>
		<dc:creator>circusricardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42566</guid>
		<description>Felix has a very simple and valid point: it is the definition of the game that the government earns 40% of ticket sales. From this it follows that if anyone buys a ticket it must increase revenue, because sales have increased. That is an analytic truth, given the game design. 

However, if the return on investment for sophisticated gamblers is positive (as suggested in the article), then it is also an analytic truth that the government cannot be earning revenue from that segment - the effective payout is 120%! This tension can only be resolved if professional gamblers buying tickets reduces the prize payout experienced by other players. If we assume the pros earn back 20% and the government gets 40% of the ticket price, a pro purchasing a $1 ticket results in a 20 cent transfer from existing unsophisticated ticketholders to the pro, and a 40 cent transfer from existing unsophisticated ticketholders to the state. The pros increase government revenue, but it is not them who pay for it. Quite the opposite.   

To sum up: participation by rich, sophisticated gamblers does increase government revenue, but the revenue doesn&#039;t come from them. It comes from the fact that their participation make the odds worse for unsophisticated players. This is the only way to reconcile the positive ROI for that segment with the structure of the game, and that&#039;s why someone might be inclined to think it is an objectionable structure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix has a very simple and valid point: it is the definition of the game that the government earns 40% of ticket sales. From this it follows that if anyone buys a ticket it must increase revenue, because sales have increased. That is an analytic truth, given the game design. </p>
<p>However, if the return on investment for sophisticated gamblers is positive (as suggested in the article), then it is also an analytic truth that the government cannot be earning revenue from that segment &#8211; the effective payout is 120%! This tension can only be resolved if professional gamblers buying tickets reduces the prize payout experienced by other players. If we assume the pros earn back 20% and the government gets 40% of the ticket price, a pro purchasing a $1 ticket results in a 20 cent transfer from existing unsophisticated ticketholders to the pro, and a 40 cent transfer from existing unsophisticated ticketholders to the state. The pros increase government revenue, but it is not them who pay for it. Quite the opposite.   </p>
<p>To sum up: participation by rich, sophisticated gamblers does increase government revenue, but the revenue doesn&#8217;t come from them. It comes from the fact that their participation make the odds worse for unsophisticated players. This is the only way to reconcile the positive ROI for that segment with the structure of the game, and that&#8217;s why someone might be inclined to think it is an objectionable structure.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42565</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42565</guid>
		<description>Nathan, then of course you can argue that the sophisticated players wouldn&#039;t have put their $40M into the pot.  To structure this to the advantage of state revenue, perhaps you have to give them the opportunity to profit.  I don&#039;t approve or disapprove, but the goal of maximizing revenue to the state seems to have been achieved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan, then of course you can argue that the sophisticated players wouldn&#8217;t have put their $40M into the pot.  To structure this to the advantage of state revenue, perhaps you have to give them the opportunity to profit.  I don&#8217;t approve or disapprove, but the goal of maximizing revenue to the state seems to have been achieved.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan_M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42564</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan_M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42564</guid>
		<description>Curmudgeon, the point TFF was making is that the tickets bought by the sophisticated bettors resulted in LESS profits for the state than it would have earned with a better structured lottery.

For example, if the stated evened out the payout scheme and increased the rake to 48% then the revenue would have been $260M instead of $300M. Of this, $124.8M would go to the towns (an increase of $4.8M) and $135.2M would go to the small time players (an increase of $3.2M). Everyone wins, except for the sophisticated investors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curmudgeon, the point TFF was making is that the tickets bought by the sophisticated bettors resulted in LESS profits for the state than it would have earned with a better structured lottery.</p>
<p>For example, if the stated evened out the payout scheme and increased the rake to 48% then the revenue would have been $260M instead of $300M. Of this, $124.8M would go to the towns (an increase of $4.8M) and $135.2M would go to the small time players (an increase of $3.2M). Everyone wins, except for the sophisticated investors.</p>
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		<title>By: absinthe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/08/10/why-cash-winfall-is-a-model-for-future-lottery-games/comment-page-1/#comment-42563</link>
		<dc:creator>absinthe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=17046#comment-42563</guid>
		<description>Strych09, the &#039;earmark&#039; of lottery revenue to specific projects (like public schools) is in most cases just marketing.  Revenue is fungible.  I&#039;m not aware of any cases where we actually tie funding of schools to lottery revenue.  Lottery revenue is a simple substitute for other sources of state revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strych09, the &#8216;earmark&#8217; of lottery revenue to specific projects (like public schools) is in most cases just marketing.  Revenue is fungible.  I&#8217;m not aware of any cases where we actually tie funding of schools to lottery revenue.  Lottery revenue is a simple substitute for other sources of state revenue.</p>
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