http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lime mouse/lifx-the-light-bulb-reinvented/pos ts/406296

They’re claiming 900+ lumens which is very impressive if it’s accurate. I’m curious if that is 900+ lumens when “pure white” or if it’s capable of producing 900+ lumens of green, red, rose, blue, etc.

What is most interesting is the compromise they made in design to manage heat. It’s one of the possible compromises that most of us skeptics assumed would be necessary. The final design and the heat simulations they’ve showed, show a bulb with likely all unidirectional LED placement. Their enclosure may help diffuse that light to some extent but I suspect it will be a limitation of their design. So for settings where directional light is OK, they may have a great bulb here. So far no one in their backer pool seems to be concerned about the directionality of that bulb and indeed in many situations it may be a non-issue.

Just a quick search yields that unidirectional bulbs are a lot easier to produce strong output…1050 lumens in this quick google find:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Energy-Smar t-LED-Flood-Bulb/17300460

But it looks like they’ll ship something that’s at least interesting, even if it’s not game changing.

Looks like they have a factory which is going to start working towards a prototype. They still think they will ship by March.

I suspect they will push far too hard to hit the unrealistic ship date which they will miss. Then end up shipping much later with a compromised product that doesn’t meet anybodies expectations (buggy software, low light output etc.).

-No video demo
-Now the structure of how the unit works has radically changed, from master/slave to all masters
-Now they have a ring of white LED’s for the white part of the light (which is exactly what I said – you can’t get acceptable quality and light output from just an RGB emitter – just not possible)
-They talk about a “production partner”. That’s great – except production partners need something to produce, which they can’t do if you don’t have a final design for them yet
-They didn’t even know what microcontroller platform they were going to use?
-They’re working on tube style bulbs now too? Honestly, they have so much work to do with their normal bulb that it’s somewhat insulting for backers that they’re working on such pie in the sky, especially while video demos remain undelivered

-the HUE is the final nail in their coffin. Some posted that Philips copied Lifx. Considering the Hue must have been in development for many months, it is the other way around. Lifx has an idea that they have no idea how they are actually going to accomplish. Philips has a product you can go to any Apple store and buy today.

Lifx is never going to happen, IMO. If they do ever ship anything, it will change from “vaporware” to “crapware”. Their goals are simply too lofty to be achieved by such a small company on such a short timeline with such a small budget. And to be pre-empted to market by someone like Philips?

Game over. Someone switch off the lifx’s on the way out :D

Also note, Philips is only releasing a 50W multicolor bulb…so I remain skeptical that LIFX is going to manage their promised 60W equivalent….hmmmmm…

I don’t have a big beef with Felix, this is easily my favorite blog. But that doesn’t mean sometimes I don’t agree with him, and the Lifx/Kickstarter post is one of them. I will address all of your comment:

My electronics design background includes the design and release into production of over 70 electronic products, running on processors from 8-bit uCs to 32-bit SoCs. They have included network interface, LEDs, and power supplies.

Wi-fi modules come with uCs these days, I pointed out the MyFi SD card for cameras as an example, which includes a wi-fi radio and a microcontroller in it. An LED light bulb already has an AC/DC converter in it, and if it needed a regulator to supply the voltages for the wi-fi module, could be easily fit into a 5 or 6 mm square area (look at the TI PMICs for example), with over 85% efficiency, so it wouldn’t generate a lot of heat. Most of the light bulb is glass or plastic, especially the sides facing away from the bulb, so I’m sure they can place it where it will work.

I’m not getting into the LED argument again, as I mentioned, people accept lower quality products all the time in exchange for extra features and lower cost.

We are not constrained to topics that I bring up, but you can’t criticize me for a point that I don’t make. I didn’t question the challenge of making a 60W bulb, but that was what my comments were being minimized for.

You and other are calling the Lifx product vaporware, but that is the nature of most Kickstarter products – people are looking for funding so they can develop them. I think it was clear that Lifx hadn’t built these yet.

What I said was nonsense was that the wi-fi radio does not need a heat sink. Obviously the LEDs do, but wi-fi modules do not dissipate enough power to require a heat sink.

Felix may have mentioned that the video showed no heat sink, but given the rendering, it’s not like Lifx was pretending there was none. Why would they have a drawing with a heat sink, if they are going to represent it as not having one?

Felix says they can’t deliver a bulb for $100,000 or even $1 million. I’m not saying they will, only that it was possible. I say this from experience, as I have worked on many projects that were developed for far less than what big companies spent. Felix has, to the best of my knowledge, never design any electronic products, so I don’t know how he can know what it will cost to do this, unless he asked somebody whose knowledge of product development is solely from a big company perspective.. Low cost development happens all the time, there’s even a book about it that has gained attention recently (The Lean Startup).

As for all of your comments about the 60W issue, once again, I never addressed them. Companies over-promise on specs all the time, and then back off. Also, the state of the art is rapidly advancing, and by the time these guys finish, who knows what they can deliver. None of my criticism of Felix’s post mentioned anything about his dismissal of the light output claim; had he criticized Lifx solely because they were promising 60W light, and made no mention of the other issues, I probably wouldn’t have commented at all. But he made several incorrect assumptions to build his case that Kickstarter should be reined in, and I don’t agree they are valid, nor that Kickstarter should have made all of those changes (like they must have a real photo, which means people must develop products now before seeking funding).

I didn’t watch the Lifx video, as I was not responding to their claims, only to Felix’s unfounded criticisms (note once again I did not challenge his comments on 60W of light). Yes, today, Lif’x product is vaporware, as are most of the Kickstart projects, and even products from companies that pitch VCs. In addition to designing all those electronic products, I have invested in many start-ups, none of which actually had a prototype when they sought funding. Which is what Kickstarter is enabling. If Lifx was taking orders on its website for these bulbs, they should be called out for that, but that isn’t what Kickstarter is about, even if that is the net result. Companies can’t sell shares on Kickstarter, so they can only offer something of value in return, and their intended product is the best thing.

I think you need to learn what “rudimentary” means.

To reply to your other post… you said some things that, as an engineer, I simply cannot let go.

FELIX:The heat sink is crucial, especially if you want to put lots of wifi electronics into the bulb.

YOU: That’s nonsense.

He is *absolutely* correct on that point. By *far* the biggest challenge in home LED lighting is heat – by far. Every single LED bulb in existence is a tradeoff between efficiency of the LED die and light output. Every. Single. One. Heat sink efficiency is almost exclusively a function of size and airflow. Size and airflow are pretty much the two first things to be compromised when you are designing a product that must match the form factor of a ubiquitous product like a standard incandescent bulb. Lifx not only claims to have solved the light output/heat problem to the extent that they can get 60W equivalency, they claim to have done it using an RGB bulb (which is MUCH less efficient and generates much more heat per lumen output compared to a white LED), *and* with enough room in the heatsink to put a wifi module. Considering that size is one of the two things that matter in a heatsink, that is an unbelievable accomplishment. And I mean unbelievable in the literal sense.

FELIX:It’s pretty clear from the video that the prototype barely has a heat sink at all.”

YOU:And yet the rendering clearly shows a heatsink.

He is talking about the prototype, not the rendering. The prototype is what the guy in the video is holding in his hand, and briefly show on a test bench. And he’s right. The “heat sink” appears to be a smooth piece of metal – that’s not a heat sink – at least, nothing resembling an effective heat sink. Felix is absolutely right on this.

FELIX: Does he really think he can do all that for $100,000, or even $1 million?”

YOU: To which I answered in my first comment, yes. And that Felix is not qualified to answer that question.

And others have come along to say why Felix was right on this, yet you still say he is wrong. You call him out for not being knowledgeable enough to comment, yet when others come along who are knowledgeable enough to comment say you are incorrect, you stubbornly refuse to admit that and claim you are still correct. No offense, but you are unqualified to say Felix is wrong on this point. He isn’t.

FELIX:Put it this way: either Lifx is a genuinely revolutionary new LED bulb, or it isn’t.”

YOU: It is only revolutionary from the standpoint that it can be easily controlled by a smartphone (for what that’s worth, obviously something to some people).

That is what *you* read into the product, but you are wrong. The biggest revolution in Lifx is a 60W equivalence bulb using an RGB emitter. This is the most damning claim in the Lifx presentation. You first said that it is feasible “because there are lots of RGB bulbs on the market”, then claimed that you were not talking about the quality of the light. Again, Felix is right. Lifx is claiming a revolution. I believe you are just being stubborn again on this point – you didn’t realize there were so many technical challenges that major OEM’s have been unable to solve, and when confronted with them, you just keep saying Felix was wrong and/or that you weren’t talking about light quality. Felix was right on this point.

FELIX: I can’t believe that Lifx has managed to solve the enormous problems that many huge companies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying — and generally failing — to fix.”

YOU: Lifx isn’t claiming to have solved those problems, and I never suggested they did. I only said their goals are feasible, and they shouldn’t be dismissed for the reasons Felix and you mention.

YES THEY ARE CLAIMING TO HAVE SOLVED THOSE PROBLEMS! Ken, what do you think the problems are that these huge companies have spent hundreds of millions to solve? Do you even know? I’ve told you – fitting enough LED power into a package that produces enough light to rival 60W incandescents while dissipating enough heat while packaged in a traditional bulb form factor that sells for a price the consumer will pay. That is 100% of what all these companies are working towards. And that happens to be exactly what Lifx has claimed to solve. They flat out say 60W performance. Felix hit a bullseye on this comment.

FELIX: And there’s a very real risk — I’d say it’s a probability — that the Lifx bulb will simply never ship at all.”

YOU: There is always that risk, and that’s the nature of Quickstarter funded hardware projects. Quickstarter tells all of the contributors this up front. The lifx founders seem well-intentioned, it’s not like they are going to take the money and run to the Caribbean.

If someone promises the world but are totally unqualified to deliver, is it OK that they make pretty renderings and collect millions for it? Felix doesn’t think so. Kickstarter agrees, since they have just changed their policy to specifically disallow projects like Lifx. On this topic, not only does Felix have a valid point, but after he wrote his article, Kickstarter changed their rules dramatically to align with his comments. That says it all.

FELIX: Despite the fact that there’s really no reason to believe that the Lifx team can produce what it’s promising,”

YOU: How does he know that? They’re not promising the best LED bulb in the world.

Yes they are – from a performance standpoint. They are claiming to be able to produce something far, far in advance of what companies like Philips and others have done, despite the millions those others have spent on it. Felix seems to realize this, you don’t. That’s why he is saying it’s likely vaporware, and why I agree with him.

Pretty much all your criticisms of his article are without merit, I’m afraid. You seem like a passionate guy about these topics, but it is clear you do not have even a rudimentary knowledge of electronics or lighting design, most especially as it relates to LED lighting. And it’s also clear that you either did not watch the Kickstarter video or read their text, or if you did, you didn’t pay attention to what they are saying.

They flat out say “60W equivalence”, which is not possible with today’s RGB LED’s. I wish it was, I’d buy them for my whole house, but it’s not. When someone promises something so far ahead of everything else, and they claim to be able to make it for a pittance ($100k vs. tens of millions Philips spent), and deliver it in just a few months, from a group with no previous experience in the same field or developing a similar product – what would you call it?

Vaporware.

It seems like you have a deeper beef with Felix, and are using this topic to hash it out. I have no dog in that fight, my focus is strictly Lifx and this blog post. I do not see Felix bashing Kickstarter at all. Perhaps he has before, but not in this post.

As for your criticism that people with no electronics knowledge are wrong in commenting on the viability of adding Wifi to an RGB bulb… what is your electronics design background? I am not feeling that you have one from your posts, and if so, I don’t see how your criticism of the other critics is valid.

Raising questions about adding Wifi to an existing RGB LED setup *is* a valid criticism. It is not only the Wifi module, but the microcontroller and associated circuit board required to interface with it, as well as an AC->DC converter of sufficient power and low noise to run a Wifi module, all of which must fit inside the “extra room” inside an RGB bulb. Then you have the problems of putting a radio device inside a metal housing, and yes, there are some very real challenges there. To dismiss it as “just adding wifi to an existing bulb” is drastically over-simplifying the technical challenge.

All of that is in addition to the much greater challenge, which is making a 60W RGB bulb in the first place. Which is a lot MORE power than any other RGB bulb on the market today (meaning larger heat sinks, more thermal issues, less space to work with).

Which brings me to my final point. I am not sure why you feel that my responses must be constrained only to topics you feel relate to what Felix wrote. You commented on the viability of making what Lifx claims to be making. I responded to that. It appears that the most compelling argument for why Lifx is vaporware is one you want to ignore as “not what you were talking about”.

I thought what we are talking about is the viability of the Lifx product, and whether Felix was correct in raising his concerns. That you and others did not appreciate the technical challenge of the 60W RGB portion of their pitch only reinforces the very real doubts that Felix raised.

Again, it seems like you and Felix have some sort of historical beef going – and I have no idea what that’s about, and IMO it’s not relevant to Lifx, which is a vaporware project that either will never see the light of day, or if it does, it will be very, very late and will not come close to meeting the commitments made in their video and accompanying write-up – IMO.

That’s from someone who works with high power lighting on a daily basis. It’s all I’ve done for the past 12 years.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy the Lifx bulb and don’t think it’s a great idea (and I love to network everything that runs on electricity). But other people do like the idea, and they should not be prevented from investing in the possibility that they can get one. Even the best VCs strike out more than 60% of the time, and that’s when they invest tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in teams that they personally vet. So the amount they are raising, and the founders’ lack of credentials don’t really matter. As for the risk the VCs are taking when they invest in those unproven startups, it is often money from pension and retirement funds, but the individuals have no say in what risks are undertaken. At least with Kickstarter, people get to choose how much and on what they want to risk $50 or $100 or whatever they feel they can afford. And that’s important, and should not be stopped.

There is often no reason to replace every bulb in the house, only the ones that are used often enough to justify their replacement. There are some bulbs in my home that have been there since we moved in 8 years ago, as they aren’t used enough.

I would love to replace all of the lighting in my home with LEDs, even if the bulb is not used often, but almost all of the lighting is in the ceiling, and I haven’t found LED bulbs that will fit and meet the output and dimming requirements.

I offer to replace your SUV with a scooter and tell you that I’ve fixed the issue of how much you spend on gas. Technically true but I think you’d notice the loss of utility.

You’re maybe right that millions of LED bulbs are sold every year, but I bet that you’d find precious few, if any, folks who have been happy enough with the overall performance to truly change out every bulb in their house with them. But since neither of us have data to back up our assumptions, it’s a moot point. I think that in about 6 months we’ll know one thing, if LIFX can delivery on schedule, and about 1 month after they deliver we’ll see how many people are actually happy with the BULB once the wi-fi novelty is worn off. Personally I see little utility in being able to turn on a crappy light bulb remotely…And I just can’t believe that folks realize this when backing the project…”Awesome! I can replace my functional bulbs with less functional ones but they’ll be remote controlled!”

We can revisit in 6-9 months….

If you think Felix issn’t criticizing Quickstarter, then you’ve missed the whole point of the post – that Quickstarter allows companies like this to raise funding.

I said to read the paragraphs after the photos, this is from the second one:

“The heat sink is crucial, especially if you want to put lots of wifi electronics into the bulb.”

That’s nonsense.

“It’s pretty clear from the video that the prototype barely has a heat sink at all.”

And yet the rendering clearly shows a heatsink.

“Does he really think he can do all that for $100,000, or even $1 million?”

To which I answered in my first comment, yes. And that Felix is not qualified to answer that question.

“Put it this way: either Lifx is a genuinely revolutionary new LED bulb, or it isn’t.”

It is only revolutionary from the standpoint that it can be easily controlled by a smartphone (for what that’s worth, obviously something to some people).

“I can’t believe that Lifx has managed to solve the enormous problems that many huge companies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying — and generally failing — to fix.”

Lifx isn’t claiming to have solved those problems, and I never suggested they did. I only said their goals are feasible, and they shouldn’t be dismissed for the reasons Felix and you mention.

“And there’s a very real risk — I’d say it’s a probability — that the Lifx bulb will simply never ship at all.”

There is always that risk, and that’s the nature of Quickstarter funded hardware projects. Quickstarter tells all of the contributors this up front. The lifx founders seem well-intentioned, it’s not like they are going to take the money and run to the Caribbean.

“The Lifx is priced at $49 per bulb, which means that you’re basically buying a basic WeMo switch and getting the LED bulb — and all the technology merging the two into one bulb-sized piece of hardware — for free. It just doesn’t seem likely.”

That is wrong.The networking technology doesn’t cost anywhere near that.

“Despite the fact that there’s really no reason to believe that the Lifx team can produce what it’s promising,”

How does he know that? They’re not promising the best LED bulb in the world.

Ken, your very first comment:

“The Lifx is priced at $49 per bulb, which means that you’re basically buying a basic WeMo switch and getting the LED bulb — and all the technology merging the two into one bulb-sized piece of hardware — for free. It just doesn’t seem likely.”
You can buy LED light bulbs for under $20 – adding a wi-fi interface can be done for $10 or less in volume. It is very likely.”

This is what you seemingly don’t get. You just ignore that a huge hurdle is the ability to produce LIGHT. Right off the bat you say that we can get LED bulbs for $20 without seemingly recognizing that no one is going to want the light those bulbs produce. Felix recognizes the problem! As I pointed out above he is fully aware that current tech isn’t up to the task of LIGHTING our homes in a satisfactory manner. So whether I can buy an LED for $10, $20 or $100 it doesn’t matter if the thing doesn’t emit good light.

Ken, your very first comment:

“The Lifx is priced at $49 per bulb, which means that you’re basically buying a basic WeMo switch and getting the LED bulb — and all the technology merging the two into one bulb-sized piece of hardware — for free. It just doesn’t seem likely.”
You can buy LED light bulbs for under $20 – adding a wi-fi interface can be done for $10 or less in volume. It is very likely.”

This is what you seemingly don’t get. You just ignore that a huge hurdle is the ability to produce LIGHT. Right off the bat you say that we can get LED bulbs for $20 without seemingly recognizing that no one is going to want the light those bulbs produce. Felix recognizes the problem! As I pointed out above he is fully aware that current tech isn’t up to the task of LIGHTING our homes in a satisfactory manner. So whether I can buy an LED for $10, $20 or $100 it doesn’t matter if the thing doesn’t emit good light.

Paragraphs #4 & #5? Felix talks about their “revolutionary” light bulb, their (rendered) svelt design and their complete absence of having picked an LED manufacturer. He isn’t asking if they’ve picked a wi-fi chip. Or even mentioned if the wi-fi is doable at this point. He has though mentioned that other companies are trying, and failing, to revolutionize LED lighting. The quote from Koeppel’s article? It’s about LIGHTING. Not wi-fi control.

Let us move on. Paragraph #6 is ONLY about LED light challenges. Spacing, heat management, compromise, DESIGN. #7 we get into the heat sink (“The heat sink is crucial”). Here we finally bring in wi-fi. But we bring it in in the concept space of pointing out that LED already have heat issues in their own right. We discuss Switch and their gel patent. Felix does say, perhaps erroneously that the wi-fi components particularly demand good heat control. But he’s already made the point that Switch recognizes that heat control is one of the PRIMARY problems of the LED market. He’s pointing out in this paragraph that not only is LIFX ignoring heat management as a huge issue in normal bulbs, they’re adding more components and expecting current tech to be enough. If current tech is inadequate, as Switch/Phillips/et al recognize, then adding anything, no matter how trivial only makes the problems worse. They could be adding wi-fi or a Clapper, it wouldn’t matter. It’s MORE. When current tech is inadequate, MORE heat, even a trivial amount can’t possibly be easier. It’s like throwing a match on a burning house and wondering why the firefighters are pissed off. Maybe you didn’t really make it worse. But you sure didn’t help them out any.

Paragraph #8 the LIFX quote is about casings, LEDs, computer boards and software. 2 of the 4 items…50% are LED problems, not wi-fi problems. And since software isn’t part of the hardware, this quote is 66% about LED problems and only 33% wi-fi.

Paragraph #9 , #10 & #11 are again, you guessed it, all about LED challenges. #9 mentions that if all we want is wi-fi, Belgian is already part way there and discusses “revolutionary” LED lighting. #10…all about LED tech and it’s difficult hurdles. #11 talks about the light quality that’s likely, it’s dispersion, heat…

Is this about wi-fi? Are you reading the same article that Lightwiz and I are?

Eleven paragraphs in and this article is about the challenges of delivering an LED that makes the grade. Wi-fi is not under attack here! Nor is Kickstarter. Felix suggests they, and the tech blogging sphere need to ratchet up their skepticism, something kickstarter clearly agreed with. But he doesn’t attack them.

And if you think the 60W part is just distraction, let me point again to paragraphs 10 & 11. In 10 Felix talks about the disappointment of many bulbs, he’s not explicit, but if you understand lighting you know why they are disappointing. They’re not 60W equivalent. People buy them hoping to place their lights and they don’t make good replacements. So when LIFX says to just change out your lights…what am I supposed to imply? That I’m replacing all my lights that supply LIGHT with what…? Whether stated or implied, by suggesting that we replace our lights with LIFX we are led to believe that they’re a proper replacement. Would any rational person replace four 69W bulbs in their living room with 20-40W bulbs? No. Those mock ups show whole rooms lit with LIFX bulbs. Warm white light, omnidirectional, etc. So when I replace my bulbs and my living room is now dim…do you think I’m going to care at all about the wi-fi module?

This is an article about design and tech development. Wi-fi is part of the package but it’s not the hurdle Felix is worried about. How can you read this article and miss his concerns about the core LED tech that LIFX seems to be lacking?