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	<title>Comments on: Taxes: Why tinkering beats wholesale overhaul</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
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		<title>By: 248TaxPlan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44780</link>
		<dc:creator>248TaxPlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 16:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44780</guid>
		<description>Altman’s suggestion that the entire income tax (and the tax expenditures that go with it) be replaced with a net wealth tax is very tempting, but it leaves the job killing payroll taxes in place. My thinking is that there would be more bang for the buck if we eliminated the payroll taxes and lowered (and flattened) the income tax rate producing the same revenue. While an 8% income tax rate would not be materially different from the approximately 7.5% employee share of the payroll tax, the elimination of the employer’s share of the payroll tax would encourage job creation and also favor U.S. jobs over foreign workers. This revenue neutral solution to unemployment and social security funding deserves a serious look.

Only the U.S. Supreme Court can resolve the Constitutional question but as an attorney I note that most legal scholars believe that a net wealth tax would not require a “direct tax” apportionment (see Fixing the Constitutional Absurdity of the Apportionment of Direct Tax by Calvin H. Johnson, 21 Constitutional Commentary 295, 2004). A major boost to the legal argument also came with the Supreme Court’s recent approval of a tax on the failure to obtain health insurance (not a penalty) without apportionment because it, like a net wealth tax, is not the kind of “direct” or “indirect” tax envisioned when the constitution was drafted. In other words, new types of taxes are not subject to the constitutional apportionment requirement. Moreover, a net wealth tax is generally used as a replacement for estate and capital gains taxes which do not require apportionment. Read more at TaxNetWealth.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Altman’s suggestion that the entire income tax (and the tax expenditures that go with it) be replaced with a net wealth tax is very tempting, but it leaves the job killing payroll taxes in place. My thinking is that there would be more bang for the buck if we eliminated the payroll taxes and lowered (and flattened) the income tax rate producing the same revenue. While an 8% income tax rate would not be materially different from the approximately 7.5% employee share of the payroll tax, the elimination of the employer’s share of the payroll tax would encourage job creation and also favor U.S. jobs over foreign workers. This revenue neutral solution to unemployment and social security funding deserves a serious look.</p>
<p>Only the U.S. Supreme Court can resolve the Constitutional question but as an attorney I note that most legal scholars believe that a net wealth tax would not require a “direct tax” apportionment (see Fixing the Constitutional Absurdity of the Apportionment of Direct Tax by Calvin H. Johnson, 21 Constitutional Commentary 295, 2004). A major boost to the legal argument also came with the Supreme Court’s recent approval of a tax on the failure to obtain health insurance (not a penalty) without apportionment because it, like a net wealth tax, is not the kind of “direct” or “indirect” tax envisioned when the constitution was drafted. In other words, new types of taxes are not subject to the constitutional apportionment requirement. Moreover, a net wealth tax is generally used as a replacement for estate and capital gains taxes which do not require apportionment. Read more at TaxNetWealth.com.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44748</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44748</guid>
		<description>Agreed, KenG, taxing consumption doesn&#039;t achieve your goals of forcing the circulation of money. Nor is it progressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, KenG, taxing consumption doesn&#8217;t achieve your goals of forcing the circulation of money. Nor is it progressive.</p>
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		<title>By: KenG_CA</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44747</link>
		<dc:creator>KenG_CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44747</guid>
		<description>TFF, that doesn&#039;t prevent accumulation of cash, which is what is happening now. Not that we haven&#039;t discussed this in the past.

A person who makes $10M a year, and spends only $500K would not be contributing to the economy the same as one who earns $500K and spends it all.  The latter is returning all of the cash to the economy while the former is extracting $9.5M (assuming it is being held in a near-interest free account, and not being re-invested), which means that money has to be replaced somewhere else, and the somewhere else has lately been the government.

I like the idea of consumption taxes, but they are ineffective when there is a lopsided distribution of income, as we have now.  If the 0.1% were spending more of their income, they would be paying more taxes, but they are just accumulating it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TFF, that doesn&#8217;t prevent accumulation of cash, which is what is happening now. Not that we haven&#8217;t discussed this in the past.</p>
<p>A person who makes $10M a year, and spends only $500K would not be contributing to the economy the same as one who earns $500K and spends it all.  The latter is returning all of the cash to the economy while the former is extracting $9.5M (assuming it is being held in a near-interest free account, and not being re-invested), which means that money has to be replaced somewhere else, and the somewhere else has lately been the government.</p>
<p>I like the idea of consumption taxes, but they are ineffective when there is a lopsided distribution of income, as we have now.  If the 0.1% were spending more of their income, they would be paying more taxes, but they are just accumulating it.</p>
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		<title>By: TFF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44746</link>
		<dc:creator>TFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44746</guid>
		<description>Simplest is to tax consumption. &quot;Wealth&quot; means nothing until it is consumed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simplest is to tax consumption. &#8220;Wealth&#8221; means nothing until it is consumed.</p>
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		<title>By: MrRFox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44739</link>
		<dc:creator>MrRFox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44739</guid>
		<description>Taxing &#039;wealty&#039; annually would be insanely fraught. Forget it.

Taxing &#039;wealth&#039; on death is simple - we do it now. Just take 100% of it after modest allowances for children. Nobody &#039;deserves&#039; anything he or she didn&#039;t earn, children especially; better if the family dog got the dough than the worthless spawn of the plutocrats - Fido wouldn&#039;t be bribing Congressmen with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taxing &#8216;wealty&#8217; annually would be insanely fraught. Forget it.</p>
<p>Taxing &#8216;wealth&#8217; on death is simple &#8211; we do it now. Just take 100% of it after modest allowances for children. Nobody &#8216;deserves&#8217; anything he or she didn&#8217;t earn, children especially; better if the family dog got the dough than the worthless spawn of the plutocrats &#8211; Fido wouldn&#8217;t be bribing Congressmen with it.</p>
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		<title>By: KenG_CA</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44735</link>
		<dc:creator>KenG_CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 03:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44735</guid>
		<description>So who would appraise real estate, privately held businesses, LPS, and other illiquid assets?  This kind of tax would be so heavily gamed it would be ineffective and would distort investment more than any other tax system we&#039;ve ever had. Are you going to tax tax-free municipal bonds at 1% of their face value, when they are yielding 4%?  How do you come up with a model for all of those privately held businesses that can be applied to all the different industries?

If income is taxed as it is converted to cash, it will effectively tax the wealthy, or at least those who are accumulating wealth, without the distortion.  Those who build assets and don&#039;t exchange them for cash are helping the economy, and shouldn&#039;t be forced to liquidate their assets, which just extracts more capital from the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So who would appraise real estate, privately held businesses, LPS, and other illiquid assets?  This kind of tax would be so heavily gamed it would be ineffective and would distort investment more than any other tax system we&#8217;ve ever had. Are you going to tax tax-free municipal bonds at 1% of their face value, when they are yielding 4%?  How do you come up with a model for all of those privately held businesses that can be applied to all the different industries?</p>
<p>If income is taxed as it is converted to cash, it will effectively tax the wealthy, or at least those who are accumulating wealth, without the distortion.  Those who build assets and don&#8217;t exchange them for cash are helping the economy, and shouldn&#8217;t be forced to liquidate their assets, which just extracts more capital from the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: FifthDecade</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44734</link>
		<dc:creator>FifthDecade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44734</guid>
		<description>In the UK a lot of murmurings are being made about the taxation of multi-nationals that play jurisdictions off against each other and use International Tax Treaties to legally fiddle the tax system out of billions of tax revenues each year. I see a time when many in the west decide enough is enough and change the rules.

Even before then though, how about a direct tax on corporate cash as a separate item? There&#039;s probably trillions sitting uninvested, not being used to stimulate economic growth, and just lying in Corporate Bank Accounts. Companies taking money out of the economy like this is akin to a rise in interest rates or a reduction in credit - in other words, this is a problem that needs to be solved anyway, so might as well use it as a  tax raising tool at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the UK a lot of murmurings are being made about the taxation of multi-nationals that play jurisdictions off against each other and use International Tax Treaties to legally fiddle the tax system out of billions of tax revenues each year. I see a time when many in the west decide enough is enough and change the rules.</p>
<p>Even before then though, how about a direct tax on corporate cash as a separate item? There&#8217;s probably trillions sitting uninvested, not being used to stimulate economic growth, and just lying in Corporate Bank Accounts. Companies taking money out of the economy like this is akin to a rise in interest rates or a reduction in credit &#8211; in other words, this is a problem that needs to be solved anyway, so might as well use it as a  tax raising tool at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Nameless</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44733</link>
		<dc:creator>Nameless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 23:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44733</guid>
		<description>@Hippopotamax, SteveHamlin: a federal wealth tax would definitely be a direct tax, and there is no exception for a wealth tax in the 16th amendment. The only way a wealth tax could be imposed without having to pass a new constitutional amendment is if the federal government were to pass a law along these lines: &quot;we want to collect $2.5 billion in wealth taxes in fiscal year 2014. Assign portions of that $2.5 billion to each state, in proportion to the number of free residents, minus the number of Native Americans, plus 0.6 times the number of slaves, in that state. Instruct states to set their tax rates to reach their targets.&quot;

Needless to say, any kind of wealth tax would be extremely progressive compared to what we have today, even if you don&#039;t build progressive brackets into the system directly (as Altman proposes). Since top 10% of the population control around 85% of total wealth, and top 20% control 95% of total wealth, even a straight 1%-of-all-wealth tax would fall almost entirely on the small wedge of the population at the top. It could be popular among the voters (everyone loves to milk the rich) but it would essentially be wealth redistribution. 

One could argue that the problem with the current system is that there&#039;s already too much wealth redistribution. We want all voters to pay their fair share of the cost of government. If everyone were to pay the same fraction of their income in federal and payroll taxes that is paid by the current top quintile (around 25%), we wouldn&#039;t have a deficit problem, we&#039;d have a surplus problem. Instead we&#039;re trying to think up the ways to get some more out of the top 3% or 1% or whatever while cutting taxes for the 97% or 99%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hippopotamax, SteveHamlin: a federal wealth tax would definitely be a direct tax, and there is no exception for a wealth tax in the 16th amendment. The only way a wealth tax could be imposed without having to pass a new constitutional amendment is if the federal government were to pass a law along these lines: &#8220;we want to collect $2.5 billion in wealth taxes in fiscal year 2014. Assign portions of that $2.5 billion to each state, in proportion to the number of free residents, minus the number of Native Americans, plus 0.6 times the number of slaves, in that state. Instruct states to set their tax rates to reach their targets.&#8221;</p>
<p>Needless to say, any kind of wealth tax would be extremely progressive compared to what we have today, even if you don&#8217;t build progressive brackets into the system directly (as Altman proposes). Since top 10% of the population control around 85% of total wealth, and top 20% control 95% of total wealth, even a straight 1%-of-all-wealth tax would fall almost entirely on the small wedge of the population at the top. It could be popular among the voters (everyone loves to milk the rich) but it would essentially be wealth redistribution. </p>
<p>One could argue that the problem with the current system is that there&#8217;s already too much wealth redistribution. We want all voters to pay their fair share of the cost of government. If everyone were to pay the same fraction of their income in federal and payroll taxes that is paid by the current top quintile (around 25%), we wouldn&#8217;t have a deficit problem, we&#8217;d have a surplus problem. Instead we&#8217;re trying to think up the ways to get some more out of the top 3% or 1% or whatever while cutting taxes for the 97% or 99%.</p>
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		<title>By: Nameless</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44732</link>
		<dc:creator>Nameless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44732</guid>
		<description>I know that you don&#039;t like mortgage interest deduction, but saying things like &quot;virtually everybody would like to see the end&quot; [of mortgage interest deduction], even qualifying that by saying &quot;in an ideal world&quot; is so patently false that it defies common sense. In opinion polls, eliminating mortgage interest deduction is opposed by ~75% of voters. In today&#039;s polarized politics, it&#039;s quite hard to find a tax change that would be so uniformly opposed in a bipartisan fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that you don&#8217;t like mortgage interest deduction, but saying things like &#8220;virtually everybody would like to see the end&#8221; [of mortgage interest deduction], even qualifying that by saying &#8220;in an ideal world&#8221; is so patently false that it defies common sense. In opinion polls, eliminating mortgage interest deduction is opposed by ~75% of voters. In today&#8217;s polarized politics, it&#8217;s quite hard to find a tax change that would be so uniformly opposed in a bipartisan fashion.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveHamlin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44730</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveHamlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44730</guid>
		<description>@Hippopotamax: &quot;The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has stated: &quot;Only three taxes are definitely known to be direct: (1) a capitation, (2) a tax upon real property, and (3) a tax upon personal property.&quot;&quot;

Non-authoritative source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hippopotamax: &#8220;The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has stated: &#8220;Only three taxes are definitely known to be direct: (1) a capitation, (2) a tax upon real property, and (3) a tax upon personal property.&#8221;"</p>
<p>Non-authoritative source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax</p>
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		<title>By: NotoriousBOB</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44729</link>
		<dc:creator>NotoriousBOB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44729</guid>
		<description>One hardly knows where to begin with this one, Felix....but what I would do in Washington if I were in charge of the opposition is to call Obama&#039;s bluff big time....enlarge the problem....by countering His measly tax increase to Clinton levels on the top 2% with a combination reform of income AND payroll taxes....eliminating the latter and reducing rates/drastically cutting excluisions, preferences and deductions across the board...all on a revenue neutral basis based on static analysis.  

The fact is that the tax regime on income is NOT very progressive...just barely so....when payroll taxes are included it&#039;s a more or less flat tax system....

the payroll tax is an abomination the only purpose of which is to fool the rubes into thinking they have &quot;earned&quot; their erntitlements....

so abolish it, without touching current benefits....create a mildly progressive simplified income tax structure that everybody pays....

the lower income qunintiles would see actual total tax burden reductions, the middle would be a wash and the top fractiles would see modest increases.

A huge win-win economically...and politically it poleaxes the blue states and the Obama coalition on may levels...what&#039;;s not to like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One hardly knows where to begin with this one, Felix&#8230;.but what I would do in Washington if I were in charge of the opposition is to call Obama&#8217;s bluff big time&#8230;.enlarge the problem&#8230;.by countering His measly tax increase to Clinton levels on the top 2% with a combination reform of income AND payroll taxes&#8230;.eliminating the latter and reducing rates/drastically cutting excluisions, preferences and deductions across the board&#8230;all on a revenue neutral basis based on static analysis.  </p>
<p>The fact is that the tax regime on income is NOT very progressive&#8230;just barely so&#8230;.when payroll taxes are included it&#8217;s a more or less flat tax system&#8230;.</p>
<p>the payroll tax is an abomination the only purpose of which is to fool the rubes into thinking they have &#8220;earned&#8221; their erntitlements&#8230;.</p>
<p>so abolish it, without touching current benefits&#8230;.create a mildly progressive simplified income tax structure that everybody pays&#8230;.</p>
<p>the lower income qunintiles would see actual total tax burden reductions, the middle would be a wash and the top fractiles would see modest increases.</p>
<p>A huge win-win economically&#8230;and politically it poleaxes the blue states and the Obama coalition on may levels&#8230;what&#8217;;s not to like?</p>
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		<title>By: NotoriousBOB</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44728</link>
		<dc:creator>NotoriousBOB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44728</guid>
		<description>Probably right about the constitutionality of a direct tax on wealth, though you cuiold, of course, inm principle, tax the change in wealth, i.e., net unrealized capital gain....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably right about the constitutionality of a direct tax on wealth, though you cuiold, of course, inm principle, tax the change in wealth, i.e., net unrealized capital gain&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Hippopotamax</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/11/19/taxes-why-tinkering-beats-wholesale-overhaul/comment-page-1/#comment-44727</link>
		<dc:creator>Hippopotamax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=19482#comment-44727</guid>
		<description>How could a federal wealth tax possibly be justified under the Constitution? The US government has two types of taxing powers: indirect taxes (import duties, excises), and direct ones, which either have to be based on population or (under the 16th amendement) on income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How could a federal wealth tax possibly be justified under the Constitution? The US government has two types of taxing powers: indirect taxes (import duties, excises), and direct ones, which either have to be based on population or (under the 16th amendement) on income.</p>
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