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	<title>Comments on: How roads could beat rail</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/</link>
	<description>A slice of lime in the soda</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 14:44:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: gblatham</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-46856</link>
		<dc:creator>gblatham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 May 2013 14:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-46856</guid>
		<description>Mr. Salmon,

At the beginning of your essay, you said that &quot;the best blog posts...are the ones which change your mind.&quot;

Based upon that criterion, this piece is an abject failure.

To put it another way: if your view of our collective transport future, replete with its burgeoning suburbs, is accurate, I hope I&#039;m dead before it arrives.

Sincerely,
Garl B. Latham</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Salmon,</p>
<p>At the beginning of your essay, you said that &#8220;the best blog posts&#8230;are the ones which change your mind.&#8221;</p>
<p>Based upon that criterion, this piece is an abject failure.</p>
<p>To put it another way: if your view of our collective transport future, replete with its burgeoning suburbs, is accurate, I hope I&#8217;m dead before it arrives.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Garl B. Latham</p>
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		<title>By: SimoneT</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45726</link>
		<dc:creator>SimoneT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45726</guid>
		<description>Spot on we need rail&#039;s efficiencies and road&#039;s flexibility - particularly in places like China and India where the stats on private car takeup are mind blowing and new superhighways clog the day they open. I wonder if the author has seen the TEV Project? It&#039;s a non-commercial project that combines a lot of the technologies mentioned in this article, with the addition of direct electric power to EVs so they can go indefinitely without stopping to charge. Zero emmisions. I would link to their website but I don&#039;t want to look like spam! I think in future the lines between road and rail, and public and private transport are going to blur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spot on we need rail&#8217;s efficiencies and road&#8217;s flexibility &#8211; particularly in places like China and India where the stats on private car takeup are mind blowing and new superhighways clog the day they open. I wonder if the author has seen the TEV Project? It&#8217;s a non-commercial project that combines a lot of the technologies mentioned in this article, with the addition of direct electric power to EVs so they can go indefinitely without stopping to charge. Zero emmisions. I would link to their website but I don&#8217;t want to look like spam! I think in future the lines between road and rail, and public and private transport are going to blur.</p>
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		<title>By: rikfre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45713</link>
		<dc:creator>rikfre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45713</guid>
		<description>bring back the horse &amp; buggy....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bring back the horse &#038; buggy&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Carbona</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45667</link>
		<dc:creator>Carbona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 03:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45667</guid>
		<description>When surveyed on the matter I always say I am against public transportation even though I am not and for pretty much the same reason I side on the side of climate-change denying politicians.  Public transportation is a wonderful and needed supplement to private automobiles .. but support for public transportation is invariably used to support the idea of it supplanting the private auto.  And that idea is supported mainly by those who either do not have spouses and teenage kids or do not allow those family members a say on what trips and errands need to be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When surveyed on the matter I always say I am against public transportation even though I am not and for pretty much the same reason I side on the side of climate-change denying politicians.  Public transportation is a wonderful and needed supplement to private automobiles .. but support for public transportation is invariably used to support the idea of it supplanting the private auto.  And that idea is supported mainly by those who either do not have spouses and teenage kids or do not allow those family members a say on what trips and errands need to be made.</p>
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		<title>By: Carbona</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45666</link>
		<dc:creator>Carbona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 03:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45666</guid>
		<description>You had me until you talked about &quot;car-sharing&quot;.  First of all, if car sharing were desirable or feasible, we would be doing it now .. whether the car drives itself has nothing to do with it.  But mainly .. I do not know ONE person who does use his or her car as mobile storage unit/purse/safety zone from social norms and the madness of crowds.  My car stinks and I like it that way .. I also like to know that when I can&#039;t find my wallet it is almost always because I left it in the car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You had me until you talked about &#8220;car-sharing&#8221;.  First of all, if car sharing were desirable or feasible, we would be doing it now .. whether the car drives itself has nothing to do with it.  But mainly .. I do not know ONE person who does use his or her car as mobile storage unit/purse/safety zone from social norms and the madness of crowds.  My car stinks and I like it that way .. I also like to know that when I can&#8217;t find my wallet it is almost always because I left it in the car.</p>
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		<title>By: emu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45664</link>
		<dc:creator>emu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45664</guid>
		<description>So, how does the liability thing shape up?

What, if any, licence do I need to sit in an autonomous vehicle and who is going to jail if that car runs over some grandma?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, how does the liability thing shape up?</p>
<p>What, if any, licence do I need to sit in an autonomous vehicle and who is going to jail if that car runs over some grandma?</p>
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		<title>By: lyang</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45661</link>
		<dc:creator>lyang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45661</guid>
		<description>Highspeed rail is more of a substitute for short-haul flights.

Should do everything where appropiate- self driving cars won&#039;t solve the bottleneck such as Holland tunnel. Maybe self-driving car to the train or bus rapid transit station then back to self driving car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Highspeed rail is more of a substitute for short-haul flights.</p>
<p>Should do everything where appropiate- self driving cars won&#8217;t solve the bottleneck such as Holland tunnel. Maybe self-driving car to the train or bus rapid transit station then back to self driving car.</p>
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		<title>By: klhoughton</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45660</link>
		<dc:creator>klhoughton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45660</guid>
		<description>&quot; Improvements on existing bridges and tunnels, absolutely, including that new tunnel to New Jersey.&quot;

Now you&#039;re just being a bi&#039;atch, Felix. Stop rubbing it in that we have a Governor who is more determined to prepare himself to run the nation into the ground than run the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Improvements on existing bridges and tunnels, absolutely, including that new tunnel to New Jersey.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now you&#8217;re just being a bi&#8217;atch, Felix. Stop rubbing it in that we have a Governor who is more determined to prepare himself to run the nation into the ground than run the state.</p>
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		<title>By: davebarnes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45659</link>
		<dc:creator>davebarnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45659</guid>
		<description>&quot;Especially so long as there aren’t any self-driving cars to pick up passengers when they arrive.&quot;
Don&#039;t limit your thinking.
Think ZipCar + train + ZipCar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Especially so long as there aren’t any self-driving cars to pick up passengers when they arrive.&#8221;<br />
Don&#8217;t limit your thinking.<br />
Think ZipCar + train + ZipCar.</p>
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		<title>By: bschmidt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45658</link>
		<dc:creator>bschmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45658</guid>
		<description>I had the same thought as KenG: that the self-driving car described here is a competitor to municipal and metropolitan transit (particularly driving and light rail, but also cycling, which would no longer be the fastest way of going .5 to 3 miles in lots of cities). But not intercity rail going 120mph+.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had the same thought as KenG: that the self-driving car described here is a competitor to municipal and metropolitan transit (particularly driving and light rail, but also cycling, which would no longer be the fastest way of going .5 to 3 miles in lots of cities). But not intercity rail going 120mph+.</p>
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		<title>By: BrianTH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45655</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianTH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45655</guid>
		<description>So if you currently have to own your own car in order to commute to work (or some other regular task), then you have to pay a lot of fixed costs in terms of the vehicle itself, providing it with parking when not in use, and so forth.  But your marginal cost for then also using your personal car for other more occasional tasks is going to be relatively low.  So, for example, you might well not have bought a car for just this reason, but now that you have one anyway, you might use it for certain intercity travel needs, instead of using an alternative train, bus, plane, or so on.

With a carsharing model, you don&#039;t have to pay all of those fixed costs on your first necessary use.  So your cost barrier to using a car on that first use is much, much lower.  Still, those categories of costs are still present, and they have to be spread out to users somehow, usually on some sort of per-unit-of-use basis.  The reason this can be beneficial overall is that the everyone-owns-their-own-car model involves an awful lot of waste in these areas, so eliminate that waste and even after paying your fair share of those costs you can come out way ahead.

OK, so now imagine driverless cars allow universal adoption of carsharing.  When deciding if, say, you want to use your carsharing service for occasional intercity travel rather than an alternative mode, you will likely now have to choose whether or not to pay what once were fixed costs under the old system, but now are variable costs under the new system.  In other words, the &quot;I have a car anyway&quot; reasoning is no longer really applicable.

I don&#039;t know how this will all shake out, since it really comes down to which intercity technology is most efficient in any given case, and I can see some gap-closing coming from driverless technologies for cars (and also some fundamental inefficiencies remaining, such as those arising from the need for the cars to be capable of independent operation, even if for intercity purposes they are in a &quot;platoon&quot;).  But I do think it is very important to keep in mind that these cost calculations look very different when the once- fixed costs are redistributed as variable costs.

And in fact, it might be telling that while lots of people do use taxis for local travel (and what are driverless cars besides just much cheaper taxis?), they are not so popular for intercity travel, and there might be good reasons for that observed split in functions which will persist even when driveless cars (aka cheap taxis) replace personal car ownership in serving a bunch more local travel needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if you currently have to own your own car in order to commute to work (or some other regular task), then you have to pay a lot of fixed costs in terms of the vehicle itself, providing it with parking when not in use, and so forth.  But your marginal cost for then also using your personal car for other more occasional tasks is going to be relatively low.  So, for example, you might well not have bought a car for just this reason, but now that you have one anyway, you might use it for certain intercity travel needs, instead of using an alternative train, bus, plane, or so on.</p>
<p>With a carsharing model, you don&#8217;t have to pay all of those fixed costs on your first necessary use.  So your cost barrier to using a car on that first use is much, much lower.  Still, those categories of costs are still present, and they have to be spread out to users somehow, usually on some sort of per-unit-of-use basis.  The reason this can be beneficial overall is that the everyone-owns-their-own-car model involves an awful lot of waste in these areas, so eliminate that waste and even after paying your fair share of those costs you can come out way ahead.</p>
<p>OK, so now imagine driverless cars allow universal adoption of carsharing.  When deciding if, say, you want to use your carsharing service for occasional intercity travel rather than an alternative mode, you will likely now have to choose whether or not to pay what once were fixed costs under the old system, but now are variable costs under the new system.  In other words, the &#8220;I have a car anyway&#8221; reasoning is no longer really applicable.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how this will all shake out, since it really comes down to which intercity technology is most efficient in any given case, and I can see some gap-closing coming from driverless technologies for cars (and also some fundamental inefficiencies remaining, such as those arising from the need for the cars to be capable of independent operation, even if for intercity purposes they are in a &#8220;platoon&#8221;).  But I do think it is very important to keep in mind that these cost calculations look very different when the once- fixed costs are redistributed as variable costs.</p>
<p>And in fact, it might be telling that while lots of people do use taxis for local travel (and what are driverless cars besides just much cheaper taxis?), they are not so popular for intercity travel, and there might be good reasons for that observed split in functions which will persist even when driveless cars (aka cheap taxis) replace personal car ownership in serving a bunch more local travel needs.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45653</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45653</guid>
		<description>I think you might be getting cabin fever mate.  What&#039;s next - replacing container ships by a platoon of computer controlled yachts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you might be getting cabin fever mate.  What&#8217;s next &#8211; replacing container ships by a platoon of computer controlled yachts?</p>
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		<title>By: samadamsthedog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45651</link>
		<dc:creator>samadamsthedog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 05:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45651</guid>
		<description>Do smart cars and platoons ummm, brake for dogs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do smart cars and platoons ummm, brake for dogs?</p>
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		<title>By: KenG_CA</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45650</link>
		<dc:creator>KenG_CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 05:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45650</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m as big of a proponent of electric cars as anybody, and I think self-driving ones would be a boon to society.  That being said, I can&#039;t agree with Felix that they would be better for trips like LA-SF than high speed rail.  I have trouble believing they would be more energy efficient, and the fact that they are privately funded by users instead of public financed by the government doesn&#039;t make it a better option (only a more likely one in the US).

If cars can be improved so much that they challenge the efficiency of trains, it&#039;s likely that trains can also benefit from the same technological advances, and maintain their huge economic and energy efficiency over cars.  

There is no justification for public subsidies for air travel over these short haul routes, yet that is what we have been doing.  And even if self-driving electric cars were available, unless they also drove at 200 mph, many people would still prefer air or trains over them, for the simple reason they don&#039;t want a 6 hour trip.  So the question isn&#039;t whether we use trains or cars for these 300-1000 mile trips, but rather trains or planes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m as big of a proponent of electric cars as anybody, and I think self-driving ones would be a boon to society.  That being said, I can&#8217;t agree with Felix that they would be better for trips like LA-SF than high speed rail.  I have trouble believing they would be more energy efficient, and the fact that they are privately funded by users instead of public financed by the government doesn&#8217;t make it a better option (only a more likely one in the US).</p>
<p>If cars can be improved so much that they challenge the efficiency of trains, it&#8217;s likely that trains can also benefit from the same technological advances, and maintain their huge economic and energy efficiency over cars.  </p>
<p>There is no justification for public subsidies for air travel over these short haul routes, yet that is what we have been doing.  And even if self-driving electric cars were available, unless they also drove at 200 mph, many people would still prefer air or trains over them, for the simple reason they don&#8217;t want a 6 hour trip.  So the question isn&#8217;t whether we use trains or cars for these 300-1000 mile trips, but rather trains or planes.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron_l</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/01/24/how-roads-could-beat-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-45649</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron_l</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 04:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/?p=20294#comment-45649</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard a lot of musing about what driverless cars mean for the future, particularly from the Economist, and I&#039;m still very skeptical. These visions often have speculation that people will stop owning cars because it will be possible to hire a random car on demand, but this is already true in urban areas (with taxis and car-sharing). Many people in cities own cars anyway for practicality, the ego boost, and sometimes economic reasons. Cars are very much aspirational items, otherwise most people would be driving subcompacts sufficient to get them from point A to point B. I don&#039;t see this changing any time soon.

There are other ways the vision doesn&#039;t make sense. If the technology really did become pervasive and people really did stop owning cars individually, the main use for cars would still be commuting during peak hours. To support this, the fleet would have to be nearly as large as it is today, and most vehicles would sit idle during the work day. Peak hour congestion would still be a big problem, whereas rail handles large volumes of people more gracefully. If the fleet stays almost as large as it is today, sharing driverless cars will necessarily be almost as expensive as individual car ownership, providing little incentive for people to give up their cars. People who can&#039;t afford to travel by car or choose not to spend the money would be left with still-mediocre public transit infrastructure.

Also, most of the US probably isn&#039;t urban enough for this kind of thing to be viable. I could see it working in a few big cities, but those are places that already have car-sharing and lots of taxis. Both are too expensive for more than occasional use, and I&#039;m not convinced that self-driving cars would do much to lower the costs. Mass transit will continue to be the primary mode of transportation in big cities, and it would be tragic to keep underinvesting in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard a lot of musing about what driverless cars mean for the future, particularly from the Economist, and I&#8217;m still very skeptical. These visions often have speculation that people will stop owning cars because it will be possible to hire a random car on demand, but this is already true in urban areas (with taxis and car-sharing). Many people in cities own cars anyway for practicality, the ego boost, and sometimes economic reasons. Cars are very much aspirational items, otherwise most people would be driving subcompacts sufficient to get them from point A to point B. I don&#8217;t see this changing any time soon.</p>
<p>There are other ways the vision doesn&#8217;t make sense. If the technology really did become pervasive and people really did stop owning cars individually, the main use for cars would still be commuting during peak hours. To support this, the fleet would have to be nearly as large as it is today, and most vehicles would sit idle during the work day. Peak hour congestion would still be a big problem, whereas rail handles large volumes of people more gracefully. If the fleet stays almost as large as it is today, sharing driverless cars will necessarily be almost as expensive as individual car ownership, providing little incentive for people to give up their cars. People who can&#8217;t afford to travel by car or choose not to spend the money would be left with still-mediocre public transit infrastructure.</p>
<p>Also, most of the US probably isn&#8217;t urban enough for this kind of thing to be viable. I could see it working in a few big cities, but those are places that already have car-sharing and lots of taxis. Both are too expensive for more than occasional use, and I&#8217;m not convinced that self-driving cars would do much to lower the costs. Mass transit will continue to be the primary mode of transportation in big cities, and it would be tragic to keep underinvesting in it.</p>
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