Hurtig: “This is why the Americans are not always treated well in some parts of Germany.”

I’ll have to bother my American friends with a rather lengthy answer to this one:

Generally, I’m not aware of any hatred of Americans that comes from what happened during and shortly after WWII. This is mainly because the Morgenthau Plan aka Directive JCS 1067 and the deaths in American POW camps did not cause any suffering beyond what people were used to at the time. For German soldiers at the end of the war, the most likely way to survive was still to surrender themselves to British and American forces (one of my granddads did that, the other one got captured by British forces).

The British and American forces treated both their German POWs and the civilian population much better than the Soviets did, and this contrast really shaped the collective memory of Germans. The German POWs who were with the British/Americans mostly returned home shortly after the end of the war (few starved, most didn’t, and the likelihood of starving was probably smaller than outside of a POW camp). The unlucky ones who were captured by the Soviets were, if they didn’t starve or get shot, deported to the Siberian tundra for forced labour in mines. They gradually returned home as physically and psychologically destroyed people throughout the 1950s, if they returned at all. Many still became productive members of the German society, and I have highest respect for those people.

The treatment of the civilian population by the American soldiers is mostly remembered positively. There are countless stories of American soldiers giving people food or firewood despite directive JCS 1067. An old lady I know told me how she (as a child) and her family hid in the forest as American troops came to occupy their village, and when she got back she got candy from the soldiers. In contrast to such stories, the Soviet troops often randomly shot people and committed mass rapes, a whole generation of German women who did not live far enough west got raped that way. The evil things the Americans did were more abstract, less obvious to see and didn’t involve any direct brutality. And people still had more food than in the Soviet zone. That’s why American atrocities don’t play such a large role in the collective memory of the German people.

Most importantly, the Americans needed/wanted West Germany as a strong partner, so they eventually did treat the Germans as allies. They did give some of their Marshall plan help to West Germany which helped rebuild the country. In addition, they helped to re-establish a democracy. And let’s not forget the Berlin air lift and how Bush senior supported the German effort for reunification.

The mass evictions of Germans from the former eastern territories of Germany is definitely seen as a crime by many Germans, but it is not really associated with the Americans in our collective memory, since the Americans were physically absent. The evicted people would typically have bad memories of the invading Red Army, and of Polish and Czech paramilitary units who took revenge on random Germans for the horrors of German occupation. Then they might have nice memories of friendly American soldiers around their new home in the west, and American swing or jazz music which they had not been allowed to hear during the Nazi rule, and that’s what they would associate with America.

If there have been any hard feelings against Americans recently, that certainly has more to do with the Bush administration than with WWII and the aftermath. Anyway, I don’t think many people here have any hard feelings against Americans at all, so don’t worry about coming here.

“Enough guilt has been placed on the German people and it is time to set them free. Let’s ensure the real history is shown and all crimes are dealt with.”

Please, don’t say ‘the real history’ in this context, that sounds a bit too spooky and revisionist for such a perfectly reconstructed German as myself . Don’t worry, I know you just meant all historical facts and not just a biased selection. You said that all crimes should be dealt with, I agree with that, as I agree with most of your post. However, I’d like to stress that the question whether or not Germans should feel guilty about whatever crimes their ancesters committed is completely independent of any crimes committed by people from any other country, and also independent of what happened to the Germans during and after the war. I don’t agree with any attempt to diminsh, relativize or justify one crime with other crimes and call that ‘putting things into perspective’; that goes either way.

As to the first, it was agreed that Poland’s border would be pushed further west and therefore all the territory of east and west prussia would be handed over to the polish as compensation. 12 to 14 million innocent women and children where forcibly removed from these area and sent to Germany, which was now west of the order. During this forced migration over 2 million people died. It is not taught in history books and maps in do not show the actual borders Pre and post world war 2. This was a crime for which the Germans have never been allowed to bring up. Tragic

The second one, the Morgenthau plan, was partly implemented during the occupation of germanymand caused untold suffering to the native German population. This was a deliberate policy of Eisenhower. The plan make for interesting reading. It is also a well documented fact the the German POW’s were redesignated Disarmed Enemy forces so that Eisenhower could get around the rules of the gene a convention. No red cross access was granted to any of the prisoner of war camps, which lead to the death of a great number of captured German soldiers.

This is why the Americans are not always treated well in some parts of Germany. We have made the Germans feel guilty for way too long and it is time they were given a break. I have been fortunate enough to have travelled nearly the whole of Germany (just after the world cup soccer) and it was great to see some pride returning.

The German soldier may have been fighting for the wrong cause, but we should never forget that they were brave soldiers who died defending their country. There families grieved just like allied families grieved. They also experienced atrocities of mass civilian bombing which was and always will be a war crime. This said it is in the past and we need to move forward. Enough guilt has been placed on the German people and it is time to set them free. Let’s ensure the real history is shown and all crimes are dealt with.

C’mon. the war is over.

The topic here is whether the Germans should still feel guilty, I have already commented on that in detail.
However, please let me deviate from this topic a little bit since the last post made me feel the need to explain something.

“I have to admit that it did stir a little anger deep in my belly to see the German flag flying alongside the American flag(of course credit goes to Britain, Canada, etc… as well) at a place that so many allies gave their lives to liberate”

I wouldn’t say that I don’t understand this. Until last year, I thought I would never have this kind of feeling. However, living in London, I actually got a bit angry when I heard that there was going to be a memorial to the honor of the British WWII bomber pilots. In WWII the British air force launched a bombing campaign against German cities. Apart from military targets, they deliberately caused firestorms which consumed residential areas and historic town centers with hardly any military benefit or purpose.

Now, of course Germany started the war, and Germany commited far greater crimes during that time. I was and I am fully aware of that. I have also always been aware that the nazi German government was ultimately responsible for all the destruction. I also know that the German air force had done the same thing with other cities.

However, the fact that Britain would build this kind of memorial in 2010 gave me the feeling that there was no respect whatsoever for the suffering of the civilian victims of these bombings, precicely because they were German. That made me angry.

Then, however, I realized something. Giving the old veterans and their families a place to remember is not the same thing as glorifying the stragegy that was used. And even though parts of the strategy that was used was immoral, even criminal, the pilots deserve credit for their bravery to risk their lives for an overall just cause. One should also note that these veterans have been denied a memorial until now because the morality of the bombings was very controversial in Britain.

As my grandma (who had survived the bombings living in Berlin) told me that of course the British should honour their soldiers, I was not capable of feeling angry anymore.

Why am I telling all this? This experience showed me that anger can, disappear the more one understands. Now please let me explain the meaning of the German flag at the D-Day celebrations.

Without going into historical details, I would like to point out that the German black-red-gold flag has always stood for German democracy. It was a symbol used by the democratic movement in the 19th century, and it was only used as a national flag when Germany was democratic (Weimar republic and after WWII).
By inviting former chancellor Schröder and putting up the German flag, the former enemies showed that they have accepted Germany as a friendly, democratic country with which they share their basic values. By coming, Schröder acknowledged that the allies are, from today’s perspective, seen as liberators and deserve gratitude.

In short, the German flag at the D-Day celebration is a symbol for the freedom that the western allies made possible for the German people. Seen from that perspective, the flag may be a source of pride rather than a source of anger to a grandson of one of the liberators. I’m not saying that’s the only way of looking at it, it is just an idea.

Take America for example. Like many of you above have stated, we don’t have a spotless past…no country does. Take for example our Civil War. I was born and raised in New Orleans, the deepest part of the south. My family owned slaves and fought for the Confederacy. Do I feel bad about this? Not one bit. Enough time has passed to where ALL the wounds have healed, and there is not one person walking this earth who has a recolection of the Civil War. Every Western power, whether it be directly or indirectly, has blood on it’s hands. To believe otherwise is just naive. Of course I can’t deny that Germany takes the cake when it comes to the scale and cold brutality of war(side note: In my opinion, Japan was far more brutal in war, but they aren’t a Western power so that’s not what we’re talking about).

Overall my point is that the youth of Germany should have a good understanding of what happened and be mindful of the fact that many German victims are still alive today. But as far as feeling guilty for it? I would have to wonder why someone would feel guilty for something that happened 30-40 years before they were even born. The wounds will, and are healing. It’s just going to take another generation or so to fully put WWII behind us.

I don’t know how much compensation has been and is still being payed all together since I didn’t do any extensive research on this, I just wrote what I happened to know.

Of course, there is no amount of compensation that can ever make up for what has happened. And of course, there are still victims of WWII and the holocaust that have not received any compensation.

Considering the enormity of the crimes any monetary compensation can only be seen as symbolic. However what we can do is to allow the remaining survivors a decent standard of living with our compensation, and I think we are trying.