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U.N. plays down “guidance” on Kashmir

August 4, 2010
U.N. chief Ban Ki-moons spokesman says Ban never said a word about Kashmir.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon's spokesman says "guidance" on Kashmir was not an official statement from Ban

(Updated August 6, 2010 at 5:05 p.m. EDT with new remarks from U.N. spokesman Martin Nesirky.)

The United Nations is playing down a statement on Kashmir a U.N. spokesman sent to a small group of reporters last week. After India made clear that it was very unhappy with the language on Kashmir issued by the U.N. press office, the world body explained that U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had  never uttered the offending words — at least not in an official statement.

This is the full text of what U.N. spokesman Martin Nesirky has described as “media guidance” on Kashmir, as provided to Reuters by one of the reporters who received it by email on July 28:

“In relation to recent developments in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Secretary-General is concerned over the prevailing security situation there over the past month. He calls on all concerned to exercise utmost restraint and address problems peacefully.

“The Secretary-General welcomes the recent resumption of Foreign Minister-level talks between India and Pakistan. He encourages both sides to rekindle the spirit of the composite dialogue, which was initiated in 2004 and had made encouraging progress on some important confidence building measures, and to make renewed efforts to address outstanding issues, including on Jammu and Kashmir. He underlines the need for patience, perseverance and compromise on all sides.”

On Aug. 3 Nesirky played down that email during the daily U.N. briefing:  “The Spokesperson’s Office released to the media guidance which was prepared by the U.N. Secretariat, and that seems to have been taken out of context. This was not a statement of the Secretary-General.”

Nesirky was asked a number of other questions about the “guidance” — was it genuine; what was taken out of context; was it authorized by Ban’s office; what is Ban’s view now; etc. His response was: “I don’t have anything to add.”

The seemingly anodyne statement comes as a separatist strike and security lockdown has dragged on for nearly a month-and-a-half in Muslim-majority Kashmir, a region at the core of a long-running dispute between India and Pakistan. Analysts are worried that if New Delhi fails to check the growing protests, deaths and rights violations Kashmir could slide into a fresh phase of armed uprising that could hurt peace efforts between India and Pakistan.

So where did the U.N. guidance on Kashmir come from? Nesirky said it came from the U.N. secretariat, not the press office. U.N. officials told Reuters on condition of anonymity that the text had been vetted by Ban’s chief of staff, veteran Indian diplomat Vijay Nambiar.

Allegations surfaced in the Indian press suggesting that Farhan Haq, the U.N. spokesman who emailed three U.N.-based reporters the “guidance” on Kashmir, was Pakistani and had come up with the language on Kashmir by himself. On Aug. 6, Nesirky defended Haq, a U.S. citizen born in Washington, DC.

“I really take exception to the insinuations based on ethnicity that you’ve seen and I’ve seen in Indian publications,” he told reporters. “I firmly reject them. Not only are they offensive, they are wrong.”

The question remains — does this reflect Ban’s views on Kashmir?  Privately U.N. officials say it does, though he would rather not speak publicly about the issue to avoid angering India, a politically powerful developing country and one of the top contributors of troops to U.N. peacekeeping missions around the world.

Every day, the U.N. press office issues statements on various issues. The headline on one recent press release was “Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon’s statement on floods in Pakistan.” The actual title of the press release, however, makes clear that it is Ban’s spokesman, not Ban himself, who is speaking: “Statement attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on the floods in Pakistan.”

Similar to the Kashmir “guidance,” the statement on the flooding in Pakistan is in the third person as the spokesman explains to readers what Ban is doing and how he feels about the flooding: “In response to the tragic flood disaster in Pakistan, the Secretary-General has asked his Special Envoy for Assistance to Pakistan, Jean-Maurice Ripert, to travel to the country as soon as possible.”

U.N. officials say that this awkward wording has evolved from the fact that sometimes the secretary-general never sees the statements composed by his army of advisers and issued under his name by his press officers.

Or perhaps that wording also offers the U.N. secretariat a way to distance itself from language that backfires, as in the case of the Kashmir “guidance”?

Comments

Ben ki if you can not say about us beter then keep mouth shut because over the un every one knows it is for the
strong and rich countries .
Kashmir would be one day Independent but you would be not
alive that time .We will beat India and Pakistan and become a Independent country with out un and you

Posted by JammuKashmir | Report as abusive
 

UN is simply a puppet which has been made to suppress weak nations like kashmir…itz really heart breaking that under indian pressure the remarks were taken back…it clearly shows that UN is worthless like “League of Nations”…
indian policy on kashmir always has been based on conspiracy…but kashmiris are there to fight against all odds…
Our birth right is”FREEDOM” and we’ll get it…Insha Allah.

Posted by zahidzaire | Report as abusive
 

The Silence of UN at the Atrocities against Kashmiris by so called India, shows that UN is only a Pet Dog of USA and WEST and it never bothers about the Human Rights of the other People…..

Posted by shahdegreat | Report as abusive
 

I love this “UN is the puppet” talk. So when things go your way, the UN must be listened to (UNSC resolutions on Kashmir). But when they don’t, they are puppets of the West?

Hypocrits.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

I’m thinking some overzealous staffer put out a press release that did not reflect Ban Ki Moon’s actual views and then the embarrassed Secretary-General was forced to clarify his position.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Excellent point Keithz! I said it before and will say it again, almost all states in India has different language, dress, food, culture, festivals and what nots and yet people aspire to be part of this rich land of diversity. They can also do the same and make a fuss like Kashmiris but they don’t. The only reason I can think of is that it is not Kashmiriyat but Musalmaniyat that itches them have so called “freedom” because these people surely got attitude problems.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Comments which criticize kashmiris for their freedom struggle are either ignorant or insane. If struggling for freedom is terrorism, then indian leaders like Gandhi, Nehu, Azad etc etc are all terrorists.
It is only a matter of time before we, Kashmiris, get rid of indian rule and we are sure about it.

Posted by AbdulRashid | Report as abusive
 
 

Excerpt-
Unfortunately, that’s what Kashmiris have done to themselves. They have allowed themselves to be seduced by the Pakistani project of creating an exclusive Islamic identity.

They naively believe that once azadi comes, they can revert to a composite Kashmiriyat. This is precisely what Jinnah believed could be done with an independent Pakistan, but the mullahs had other ideas.

No pandit or Ladakhi or any of the other ethnic populations of Jammu & Kashmir will ever want to stay in this place. No secular humanist can support an azadi project that is rooted in exclusivism when the world is talking inclusivism.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

You are sure. 1 billion people are also sure.
If india is at point A (status quo), you want us to move to point B ( change in status quo).

If Indians feel point B is absolutely detrimental to the country, we’ll do everything we can to stay at point A.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Complete normalization of Kashmir will not be achieved until India abrogates the ‘special sttlement rights’ given to Kashmiris. If Pakistan can settle it’s Punjabis & others in PoK, why can’t India do the same?
Let Kashmiris live amongst Indians from different regions & only then will they start valuing the diversity of India & it’s advantages. Open up Kashmir to investments from Indian & foreign companies, assimilate Kashmiris with the rest of India & let them enjoy the presperity which the rest of the country (by & large) is enjoying.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@misguided separatists

You guys are free to talk of Gandhi, Nehru and Azad and fancy yourselves in their shoes. In reality, the reason that these great men succeeded were, A) presence of the humongous popular support, and B) lack of strength (not in terms of military but British populace) of their opposition and their conviction in their morality in doing so.

Your case is different!

With one billion people covering point B of what I illustrated above, your chances are absolutely slim. If occupation is what it is then it is not by government of India, it is by one billion people behind that government. You can’t win them neither forcibly nor democratically. Pakistanis knew that better and hence the evil schemes of bleeding India through thousand cuts but they are caught in their own web these days.

Any sympathy that brick-pelting mobs can get from international community, get washed away by deteriorating security outlook of south Asia and world can’t afford another nation that can most certainly become a nurturing ground of Al Qaida/Taliban terrorists. Every key player is already sitting on ice-packs for their follies during the cold war.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

Thanks to the posters in this thread (with the odd exception) articles regarding India, Pakistan seem to get the most literate posters. Be proud compared to most of the US domestic post your arguments are well laid out and concise.

Posted by outsideopinion | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir isthe responsibility of India, similar to Palestine which is the responsibility of Israel. The internationalcommunity has allowed these countries a very long rope so that they can eventually hang themselves. Bank ie noon is a pitiable induvidual, hoping for best days for his divided country when the USA is going to let them free.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Kashmir is the responsibility of India, similar to Palestine which is the responsibility of Israel”
–Pakistan

Pakistan:

UN thinks both India and Pakistan need to take action for Kashmir. As usual you will not consider that relevant.

Tell me this:
1. Why it is not Pakistan’s responsibility. I know you will never answer this and hide somewhere.

2. @Kashmir is the responsibility of India—Even going by that, India treats it as a part of India–like any other state. Aricle 370–Kashmiris can buy any propety in other states of India but reverse is not true.

Compare with Azad kashmir. Drop your biases.

3. @Israel-Palestine / India-Kashmir analogy.
You can be so ignorant to draw this analogy. No idea which “layer of the brain” you use. I suggest use appropriate segment of the brain.

Palestinians did not invite Israelis, Kashmiris did. Palestine was never happy with Isreal, Kashmiris were happy with India till 1989 and what happened later is known to all except you.

India faulted by rigging election in 1987 and Pakistan made a corridor for terrorists to exploit the situation and all the killings are the result of that. Work backwards and see why this happened but that is asking for milk from a male cow.

Indian security personnel use slingshots as first mechanism of self-defense, unlike trigger happy Isrealis security or Pakistanis on Baloch or sofetning the targets by aerail bombing by pakistan. Did you ask yourself why you do not hear news about Baloch throwing stones at Pakistan? lol…do not tell me they love Pakistan security. It is because they know the bullet for pellet attitude of Pakistan.

Historically, Kashmir is as much part of India as any other state.

Pakistan, go read the history.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

If it makes you feel good to claim the Islamist genocidal ethnic cleansing of Kashmir with Gandhi’s struggle against British, feel free to do so. It is a stupid comparison.

Gandhi convinced Britain it is in Britain’s interest to grant independence to India. Islamist aggression by Pakistan and the puppets on pak payroll in Kashmir have done the opposite. You have convinced India more than ever, it is in India’s interest to stay put.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir can be given independence on the following conditions. Since Pakistanis are willing to sacrifice themselves for their Kashmiri “brothers”, we should insist on those sacrifices. Afterall, a Pakistan that is belligerant towards India is not a good news with Kashmir gone at the same time. Therefore, to get the Kashmir deal, let Pakistan agree to the following terms by means of a UN sponsored treaty:

1. Get rid off all nukes from the country
2. Destroy all nuclear bomb making installations and missiles under international supervision
3. Hang all the militant leaders in public.
4. Close down all Madrasas and put the Mullahs behind bars.
5. Shut down the ISI and hand over their Islamist officers to the Americans
6. Give independence to Balochistam, Khyber-Pakhtoonkwa, and Sindh.

If Pakistanis agree to the above, India will surely consider giving independence to Kashmir. After all, we need something in return from a geo-strategic stand point. Pakistan cannot have everything its way. As a country they have already demonstrated their utter failure. Right now there only the Pak military that is holding the whole region hostage, including the COAS. It is not allowing anything to settle down. With such a system in the vicinity, letting go of Kashmir will be counter productive to India’s interests.

Will the Kashmiris campaign for this? They also won’t be safe with a Pakistan sitting next to them.

If a solution is needed, let us pursue it and let all parties go home happy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Let us say Kashmir becomes independent.

Imagine, who all will be written down in golden letters as freedom fighters.

Also, let us assume the best possible scenario that Pakistan does not swallow Kashmir. Pakistan will be under severe pressure from LeT and JeM and all other hyphenated cousins to mention these killers as Kashmir freedom fighters.

So we will have another country next door where people are taught “distorted history”. Hafeez Saeed CEO LeT Inc. and Masood Azhar CEO JeM Inc will be the freedom fighters.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Myra,

The discussion on Pakistan occupied Kashmir continues to this day to evade scrutiny.

We should have a fair discussion on Kashmir and bring all three parties, Pakistan, Indians and Kashmiri all involved.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the media is doing a good job focussing on the India Kashmir issues, but gets failing grades even mentioning the Pakistan side of Kashmir.

Myra, I as a reader and now as a blogger ask you take that that charge and shine light on the issue.

The world demands it.

All issues like 1948 UN resolutions and accords should be thoroughly discussed and all players pointed out where they are not complying.

Kashmir will never be solved unless a fair discussion is given all issues surrounding Pakistan occupied Kashmir.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Kashmiris are culturally different from Indians and want to separate for the following reasons from India:

suttee
devdasism
purushamedha
Kautilyan totalitarianism and apartheid
(varnashrama dharma)
Castism – Religion sanctioned racism

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Rip Van Winkle: “Kashmiris are culturally different from Indians and want to separate for the following reasons from India:

suttee
devdasism
purushamedha
Kautilyan totalitarianism and apartheid
(varnashrama dharma)
Castism – Religion sanctioned racism”

yeah right! Kashmiris have the most modern outlook – I don’t want to hurt your religious belief. But it looks like you have been living the cave for too long. You need to get out and take a bath. Is there anything else they teach in the LeT camps other than the above gems that you have quoted. Go to the White Supremacist web sites and you will find similar propaganda nonsense against others. So you want to separate from a country because of the above issues. This means Pundits and Buddhists in Kashmir will need to be exterminated or forcibly converted. Forming nations based on religious purity, racial purity are for things of the past. Welcome to the 21st century.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

# Manmohan Singh must take bold steps to demonstrate his willingness to address the grievances of ordinary Kashmiris.
# Singh should not insult their sentiments by talking of economic packages, roundtable conferences and all-party talks
# India’s delusional narrative of manipulated protest has to be dumped
# The ‘masla-e-Kashmir’ remained on the table and the people wanted it resolved. Unfortunately, the Centre failed to recognise this.
# No doubt, some areas like downtown Srinagar, Sopore and Baramulla were in the ‘vanguard’ but one of the reasons the protests spread was popular frustration over the way in which the authenticity of mass sentiment was being dismissed by the government.
# Today, the burden of India’s past sins in Kashmir has come crashing down like hailstones.
# The Prime Minister can forget about the Commonwealth Games, AfPak and other issues. Kashmir is where his leadership is urgently required.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

You need to get out and take a bath

– Nudity outside is not looked upon favorably in my culture. Also my bath-tub is not outside.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

other things that are different

Child marriages in Rajasthan, Khap honour killings on the basis of caste, Untouchability(Harijans)not even allowed to drink water from an upper caste well, Girls have to bring dowry in order to please their in-laws

we are DIFFERENT NATIONS.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Palestinians did not invite Israelis, Kashmiris did. Palestine was never happy with Isreal, Kashmiris were happy with India till 1989 and what happened later is known to all except you.

– The collapse of the berlin wall inspired kashmiris. Kashmniris NEVER joined india. Leave kashmir. Please we beg you. We don’t care how rich you are, how powerful you are, how wonderful you are, how good looking you are, how nice you are, how wealthy you are, how you reached moon with satellite, how you reached pluto with spaceship, just leave kashmir.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

“Please we beg you”

So after trying stealing and borrowing, Pakistanis have stooped to begging? (almost devilish smile here)

“Nudity outside is not looked upon favorably in my culture”

Threeface talking of shame! Thats certainly a first. And we thought you were permanently shame-proof.

PS: Some people are destined to die form hate cancer.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

“Please we beg you. We don’t care how rich you are, how powerful you are…..
Posted by mirusmtupsha

This weasel paki “mir-usm-tup-sha” (translation: mirza usman/tupak shakir) is again acting like a kashmiri & talking on their behalf. just die already roach!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

“Nudity outside is not looked upon favorably in my culture”

All one needs to do is, turn on CNN, BBC, FOX etc to see your culture. Go strap a bomb on & blow yourself in a mosque cuz THAT’S YOUR CULTURE!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

There are undoubtedly many social evils in traditional Hindu society. The Indian constitution outlaws them, Indian law recognises them as crimes and progressive Indians condemn them and do not subscribe to such philosophies.

But remember that traditional Muslim societies have also been criticised for analogous social evils – stoning people to death, treating rape victims as criminals, flogging, beheading, amputation, forced marriages, female circumcision, treating apostasy (leaving the religion) as a crime, death for blasphemy, etc.

Progressive Muslims do not agree with such barbaric practices either. So if progressive people everywhere can agree that barbaric practices are bad and work towards a more civilised society, these are then not differences but areas of concern that unite us.

Why don’t we try and look for things that unite rather than things that divide? If we set out to look for differences to condemn, we will definitely find them. It also means we’re not serious about peace. The evils we point out are just sticks to beat the other with. Well, the other will not go away. We will just stew in our own hatred till we die.

Regards,
Ganesh

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@ mirusmtupsha
Your posts reveal you are not Kashmiri,but a vermin from we know where.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh, you are a good man. i have no quarrel with you. i have a quarrel with the other full-time haters on this blog with nothing better to do in their empty, unfulfilled lives than to comment on pakistan. i don’t wish to hurt the sentiment of a decent person such as yourself but indian haters on this blog.

please note: there is nothing analogous to castism in islam. 14 centuries before america’s celebrated civil rights movement, islam declared all races to be equal.

also, the practice of sati was first outlawed not by your government or the british but islam.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Will the Kashmiris campaign for this? They also won’t be safe with a Pakistan sitting next to them.

– Hypocrisy. who has taken territory of their neighbors, Pakistan or India?

Did Pakistan steal from Nepal, Bangladesh, Portugal, Sikkim? Did Pakistan try to steal from China? Who invaded siachen? Does Pakistan have all 3 principalities? Was it Pakistan that deprived india of a non-muslim majority province?

There is one country in south asia that disrespects the territory of their neighbors and it is India.

your self-righteousness without merit is nauseating.

how do you know we won’t forge a union with our kashmiri brethren ? how do you know we won’t advocate a south asian union like the europeans once kashmir has been settled?

you indians need to rid yourself of this myth of morality. you need to understand you have wronged your neighbors and you will pay for it.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

If Kashmir becomes autonomous by some miracle, I won’t be surprised to see Pakistani presenting their “brethren” a bill of war accounting for the payments for each brick and stone.

Pakistanis like to stick their noses where they don’t belong and then cry that they are fighting someone else’s war and have suffered so many losses because of it. You emotional fools will rally for Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechans but never actually care for the plight of people in your country.

Lets see if a single one of you urge the blog writers here to write about latest food security report on Pakistan. You won’t! You will rather stuff grass in the mouths of your needy, give him a nuclear cigarette to drag and then spend all your energy in finding out what is ailing India (or what has ailed India in past 2000 years).

BTW, we thank you from our hearts for pointing out all our faults for free. With volunteers like you, Indian society and culture is will surely be able to heal any of its remaining ailments even quicker.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis like to stick their noses where they don’t belong a

— you are right! It was Pakistan that stuck its nose in sri lanka (only to be kicked out), east pakistan (only to be kicked out), nepal, the maldives, sikkim. The whole neighborhood hates your guts and cheers on pakistan for being able to stand up to the 800 pound gorilla of south asia. As for palestine, it is none of your GOD DAMN business if pakistan supports palestine against israel or afghans against USSR. you can support whomever you want, we don’t even know and don’t care.

your energy in finding out what is ailing India

— this is pathetic. you obsess over pakistan a thousand times, how many pakistanis are there on blogs about india? There are more indians commenting on DAWN BLOG than pakistanis sometimes!

Lets see if a single one of you urge the blog writers here to write about latest food security report on Pakistan

— I am at this very moment involved in donations for victims of monsoon flooding. Pakistanis give heartily to fellow countrymen since our politicians are worthless. If you could only witness how the nation had galvanized after the earthquake. we don’t need a lecture from bean-counting banya from india where two times the population of pakistan lives in the most horrific conditions known to mankind.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

The next uprising in kashmir will result in total and complete freedom. Free Kashmir!
Kashmir bane ga Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Usman
“Pakistanis give heartily to fellow countrymen since our politicians are worthless. If you could only witness how the nation had galvanized after the earthquake.”

-I have winessed every single event closely since last three years in Pakistan, from Lal Masjid siege, to South Waziristan operation, to spate of suicide attacks, political turmoil, uncertainty etc. Every time Pakistan emerges stronger,it shows we are a resilient nation. Bring out the best in us when pushed beyond the limits of normal endurance. While this is not self praise, one must always have confidence in oneself, towards the nation and the country. Usman, thank you for contribution, our office is also collecting donations and a staff member belonging to the affected areas will deliver the supplies. As if the 2005 earthquake was not enough, these monsoon floods are worst in 80 years. But we will overcome anything. PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Kashmir bane ga Pakistan.
Posted by Umairpk

–SHAMELESS!

And Pakistan(is) ask for self-determination for kashmiris even as their status in Azad Kashmir is already pre-determined.

HYPOCRITES!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@ Hypocrisy. who has taken territory of their neighbors, Pakistan or India?
Posted by mirusmtupsha

—Here is this for you. Read and remember it very well.

*************************************
An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.

A representative from India began: ‘Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Rishi Kashyap of Kashmir, after whom Kashmir is named. When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath.’

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Pakistani had stolen them.’

The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, ‘What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren’t there then.’

The Indian representative smiled and said, ‘And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.’
**************************************** *************

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

As I have said earlier during our decent discussion with one Pakistani poster Saif and several Indian posters that Kashmiris should look forward for autonomy than impossible freedom.

Kuldip Nayar says the same in Dawn.

Kashmir: no ideal solution
By Kuldip Nayar
Friday, 06 Aug, 2010

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/21-kuldip-nayar-kashmir-no-ideal- solution-680-sk-04

Excerpts:
Quote “What is happening in the valley lends credibility to the Kashmiri diaspora that met in Washington a few days ago to ask for an early, peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem.

“I was one of the participants at the conference which was convened by the Kashmiri-American Council and Association of Humanitarian lawyers. Emotions apart, the diaspora was concerned over the future of the land of their origin.

“Three things happened. One, the anti-India Kashmir leadership constituted a joint body, the All Hurriyat Conference. Two, a secular movement acquired an Islamic edge, particularly because of hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani. Three, the pro-Pakistan tilt changed into a resolve for independence, the slogan which Yasin Malik, the first militant in Kashmir, raised. Today that sentiment prevails in the shape of a demand that Kashmiris decide their own destiny.

“The demand for independence may be genuine but it is not possible. I wonder even if Pakistan would agree to an independent, sovereign state when the chips are down. I opposed the demand at the conference in Washington on two counts: one, India will not agree to another partition on the basis of religion, and two, borders could be made irrelevant but not changed. I also cautioned that Jammu and Ladakh would not go along with the valley to the point of secession.

“Yet it would be useful to find out what was the solution that Vajpayee and Nawaz Sharif had reached to make the former say: “We were almost there.” Former Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri announced at Delhi that they had reached a settlement. What was the solution? And the most important part is whether Kashmiris would accept it? Both India and Pakistan must persuade them to accept autonomy because independence does not seem to find favour in either New Delhi or Islamabad. It can tell upon India’s integrity.

“The Kashmiris should realise that independence is not an ideal solution.”

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@mirusmtupsha:
> please note: there is nothing analogous to castism in islam. 14 centuries before america’s celebrated civil rights movement, islam declared all races to be equal.

That’s of course one of the best aspects of Islam, but again, that is neither here nor there. One could argue that Hinduism is probably the only religion in the world that declares that all religions are true. That is also neither here nor there.

My point is we need to stop looking back at the past and all the perceived injustices our own kind have suffered and instead look forward to the future and all its possibilities. We also need to be flexible in our approach. If we continue to insist, for example, “Kashmir first, then peace,” it may quite simply lead to another 63 years of stalemate, which nobody wants. Why not try a different approach, e.g., “Peace first, then Kashmir”?

This is not just addressed to you but to anyone participating in such forums, because I assume everyone here is in some way trying to engage. What is the harm in being a little less rigid and trying different approaches? We may just find some surprising common ground, which will make further progress possible. The incessant to-and-fro accusations lead to no progress at all.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

—Here is this for you. Read and remember it very well.

*************************************
An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.

— This was a brilliant, paradigm shifting anecdote for me Rajeev. I will never forget it… for its shear stupidity.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Threeface talking of shame! Thats certainly a first. And we thought you were permanently shame-proof.

— I am not threeface idiot. i have to create new userid because a bunch of cowards would rather click on ‘report as abusive’ than be confronted by the unflattering truth.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Gandhi convinced Britain it is in Britain’s interest to grant independence to India

– Don’t flatter yourself. Adolf Hitler convinced Britain with the luftwaffe that she can no longer militarily or financially hold on to its colonial possessions. I would like to see how far the non-violence strategy would work without WWII.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Historically, Kashmir is as much part of India as any other state.

– would that be british raj india that consisted of burma, nepal, somalia! etc.? or would it be mughal india that invaded kashmir? or would that be non-existent “india” prior to the mughals?

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Ha ha. Even an Islamized UN will not comment against India.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Previously never existed “Pakistan” annexed Kalat and NWFP through British connivance and fraud. We should start with that.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis shouldn’t blame the UN for backtracking. The UN peace keeping forces are already stretched to breaking point by having to maintain missions in most of the wonderful Islamic lands on the planet. They surely do not want to create another international migraine.
It gives me a lot of grief to see that Pakistanis are reduced to whining and posing as Kashmiris on Internet forums. Whatever happened to the 1:10 Hindu:Muslim awesomeness ratios?

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

The demand for independence may be genuine but it is not possible.

– That is what Slavemasters said to slaves, the british empire to india, pakistan, nepal, america, the french to algerians, the pakistani to bangladesh, the afrikaaners to mandela. Since when did nations restrict themselves to the possibilities of the occupier?

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

The comparisons of kashmir to baluchistan are fanciful talking points. there is no comparison to the two situations except in the wonderfully imaginative minds of indians.

“Previously never existed “Pakistan” annexed Kalat and NWFP through British connivance and fraud. We should start with that.”

– The other one, I forget which, (there are so many of you) was referring to historical kashmir. at least we pakistanis admit that pakistan is a modern construct… you claim a 5000 year history as a singular nation-state spanning from afghanistan to vietnam to mars.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Whatever happened to the 1:10 Hindu:Muslim awesomeness ratios?

— Pak/India ratio is 1:10, yet we stand up to you win, lose or draw. Compare this to your record with a slight disadvantage against china. you got your collective a$$ torn up.

get some class and learn to acknowledge a weaker adversary like those women and children pelting rocks at your 1 million soldiers.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

It gives me a lot of grief to see that Pakistanis are reduced to whining and posing as Kashmiris on Internet forums.

— There is no need for us to do that. just go read kashmiri blogs. learn from them how much kashmiris love India.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

“Kashmir bane ga Pakistan”
Posted by Umairpk

Of course, why not! And while you’re still dreaming, u might as well all of India, Afghanistan, Nepal, Bangladesh(lol), Burma, Sri lanka, Central Asian countries etc as well.

Favorite activity of failures & losers of a perennial failed state: DAY DREAMING! haha

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Of course, why not! And while you’re still dreaming, u might as well all of India, Afghanistan, Nepal, Bangladesh(lol), Burma, Sri lanka, Central Asian countries etc as well.

— Pakistan has no territorial designs on any other country unlike land-grabber India. Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka are not worried about pakistan’s intent. They do worry about India taking yet another enclave or interfering in their internal matters.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

@This was a brilliant, paradigm shifting anecdote for me Rajeev. I will never forget it… for its shear stupidity.
Posted by mirusmtupsha

—In anycase, I did not expect you to get it and proved me right.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Pak/India ratio is 1:10, yet we stand up to you win, lose or draw. Compare this to your record with a slight disadvantage against china. you got your collective a$$ torn up.”
Posted by mirusmtupsha

–Don;t you think your empty bravado is inconsistent with the official/public stance that India is an exietential threat to Pakistan?

We do not say China is an existential threat to India despite our loss and we do not give long winded explanations of India/Chian ratios to explain why we lost.

If you are hell bent upon being an enemey of India, be at least GRACEFUL enough to suck up the deafeats and 1971.

PS: Btw what does population ratio has to do with the outcocme of the war?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Pakis can keep barking all they want, kashmir will always remain a part of India. India has waited out the last 20 yrs, it’ll wait out some more till napakistan becomes a #1 failed state & breaks into 5. that’s a lot closer to reality than the wet fantasies, which pakis are used to dreaming.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@please note: there is nothing analogous to castism in islam. 14 centuries before america’s celebrated civil rights movement, islam declared all races to be equal”

–Posted by mirusmtupsha

–add to the above “and man and woman unequal until today”

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@— Pakistan has no territorial designs on any other country unlike land-grabber India. Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka are not worried about pakistan’s intent. They do worry about India taking yet another enclave or interfering in their internal matters.
Posted by mirusmtupsha

—LAWL! Cannot say about others Bangladesh knows you cannot do a thing to them. If you could not keep them together, you sure cannot grab their land.

Look up a map and see where Nepal and SriLanka are withrespect to Pakistan and again rememeber 1971 in this context.

But thanks for not grabbing their land. You are so kind and generous superpower.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@bloggers,

I am convinced, Pakistan cannot survive, unless it maintains against India, hateful politics and propaganda as a tool for national unity.

What a pity.

Sorry, Umair, I do not wish it, but I think pakistan lacks the inertia to stay intact as one country. One day, when Pakistanis realize and wake up that they have been pointing their finger in the wrong direction, the consequences for the faujis will be dire. Pakistani’s will make their own judgement.

Dismemberment and disintegration will one day befall Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@please note: there is nothing analogous to castism in islam. 14 centuries before america’s celebrated civil rights movement, islam declared all races to be equal”
–Posted by mirusmtupsha

Is that why an indian/pakistani/bangladeshi muslim, considered a second grade muslim & an african muslim considered a third grade muslims by the arabs?

your attempts at projecting islam as some sort of a broad-minded modern religion is hilarious, given your past & present.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@— There is no need for us to do that. just go read kashmiri blogs. learn from them how much kashmiris love India.
Posted by mirusmtupsha

@“Kashmir bane ga Pakistan”
Posted by Umairpk

–May be you two should talk to each other that official “Kashmir bane ga Pakistan” attitude is what Kashmiris are afraid of Pakistan.

Reports suggest that Kashmirs love Pakistan as much as they love India. The reason is they know Pakistan is a slimy and devious country with “Kashmir bane ga Pakistan” attitude while asking for self-determination.

Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan also felt the same. When the Congress party accepted the partition plan, and he had to join Pakistan he told the Cong party “You have thrown us to the wolves.”

Muslim poets who chose to go to pakistan ended up in jails and many fled back to India. You want a list let me know.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

This complete newsreel with original narration shows Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru visiting Srinagar in November 1947. He is met by Sheikh Abdullah and the Maharajah of Kashmir.

Celebration of diversity and democracy over pakiism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGlcCNJSK wI

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Dismemberment and disintegration will one day befall Pakistan.

—- Umair, Have you heard this prediction before? It sounds familiar.

forget it… for its shear stupidity.
Posted by mirusmtupsha

—In anycase, I did not expect you to get it and proved me right.

—- you douche, it’s a stupid story, i don’t know why you are so fond of it.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

“how many pakistanis are there on blogs about india?”

that’s because there aren’t enough literate pakis out there, who can comment in english. madrassa education can teach u how to make a bomb but not how to read & write in english.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Pakis can keep barking all they want, kashmir will always remain a part of India. India has waited out the last 20 yrs,

— 20 years only? we are ready for centuries. That’s how we Muslims handle our business. I will teach my children well and they will teach their children and we will take what is ours in 2600 A.D. if need be. Pakistan the concept will ALWAYS live on. East Pakistan is no more but the concept of pakistan lives in the form of Bangladesh when they kicked your @$$es out in 1972 and termintated the ‘friendship’ treaty as soon as possible.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

that’s because there aren’t enough literate pakis out there, who can comment in english.

– Indian mentality: one can only be literate if they know the language of your former colonial masters! lol. The british have left but colonialism remains in india. Here is some english for you: Eat $hit and die.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

This complete newsreel with original narration shows Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru visiting Srinagar in November 1947. He is met by Sheikh Abdullah and the Maharajah of Kashmir.

– The kashmiris are celebrating because of the dirty lies nehru promised:

This list was given to me by a kashmiri blogger: chinaar

1)“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
2)“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).
3)“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).
4)“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).
5)“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

–add to the above “and man and woman unequal until today”

— Typical indian hater. Islam introduced progressive, feminist ideals and rights at a time when women were treated worse than cattle. this is more indian propaganda and muslims from all over the world should take note of this israel of south asia.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

if India is so wonderful to its neighbors, have you ever come out of your bollywood studio and thought about why every neighbor of India is ready to provide military bases, ports to China without hesitation? ready to help china contain innocent mother india?

why does innately evil pakistan have good relations with nepal, bangladesh, sri lanka?

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

PS: Btw what does population ratio has to do with the outcocme of the war?

– you bufoon. your bufoonery knows no limits.

Is that why an indian/pakistani/bangladeshi muslim, considered a second grade muslim & an african muslim considered a third grade muslims by the arabs?

– first of all, the arab attitude towards muslims is a stereotype. perhaps you are referring to socio-economic discrimination which exists in all countries especially mother india.

second, Islam and Arabs are not synonymous. As for african muslims, you obviously don’t know anything. read up on hazrat bilal.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

too many indians talking to me. talk amongst yourself, pick a representative then talk to me. also control your population.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Talk about Kashmir with any Indian, and see how they talk and display their insecurity sense. Kashmir will never be part of India, at best India will be bogged down with hundereds of thousands of troops there, to no avail. A nuclear Pakistan, fresh from regional victory in Afghanistan can jump start the 1989-style uprising at any moment.
Kashmir runs in our blood.
Kashmir is our jugular vein.
AZADI!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Here is a statement from Washington Post:
================================
“The Indians are shell-shocked,” said a Western diplomat involved in Afghanistan policy. “They went in with more than a billion dollars, and now Pakistan is eating their lunch.”
================================

I don’t always agree with ISI but as Inzi would say “The boyaz did a good job” on the sticky/turning Afghan pitch. Now, ISI need to get their act together and facilitate ONE RESISTANCE GROUP dedicated to liberation of kashmiris in Indian occupied Kashmir using guerrilla tactics against military personnel only. All other groups need to be dismantled. Indians have become quite confident and need to be brought down a notch. They only believe in might-is-right so lets show them the might of freedom fighters.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Jumpstarting 1989 would require you to be flying. Right now you are crawling. Try walking first.
You are bombed, droned, flooded,toasted and roasted.
See if you can stop the heavily jumpstarted Shia-Sunni-ahmedi celebrations, all across Pakistan.

PRupee is heading to a nice round number. Another circulatioof the begging bowl is going on.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

“I will teach my children well and they will teach their children and we will take what is ours in 2600 A.D.”

Do teach them! teach them how to beg! teach them how to blow bombs under each others azzes! teach them how to be as or more of a loser & failure than you are!

You effen c*&hutiya, it’s ONLY & ONLY in the minds of loser Pakis like you that India does not have good relations with it’s neighbors. The only country which India has bad relations is the TERRORIST, FAILED state of npakistan. India has good relations with Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc & is also building good relations with China. Indo-China trade is expected to surpass $200 bn in the next 3-5 yrs & very soon even the chinese will dump your FAILED & sorry azzes. Then you will have absolutely no one’s chest to thump on. Failed country, Loser nation: napakistan! haha

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

“Indian mentality: one can only be literate if they know the language of your former colonial masters! lol. The british have left but colonialism remains in india”
Posted by mirusmtupsha

you inbred s&^wine, I was reffering to this blog. Is it in english or some other language? It’s funny for a paki to talk about colonialism. Your failed state exists because of the peices of s*hit thrown your way, by the americans, british etc, which pakis like you swallow without hesitation. You & your country BEGGARISTAN have & always will be a slave of the west. Your tongues will forever be stuck in their azzholes haha.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan & Pakistanis remind me of a schizophrenic & delusional beggar, who sat in a dark ally covered in his own s*hit & filth, dreaming about ruling the world one day & barking obscenities at everyone walking by. People laughed at him & looked at him with contempt, disgust & pity. One day the beggar died, while a stray dog p*issed on his face. I can’t help but think that Pakistan’s end will be similar to that of the beaggar.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

“A nuclear Pakistan, fresh from regional victory in Afghanistan can jump start the 1989-style uprising at any moment”

You may start in kashmir (although u r bankrupt, failed state) BUT WE WILL END the uprisings in Baluchistan, Pakhtunistan, Sindh etc. And when we say we’ll end it, we don’t mean, like idiots bleeding ourselves to death like u have. We will conclusively END it like we did in East Pakistan.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Black_Sabbath3:
“We will conclusively END it like we did in East Pakistan.”

-Try, but remember in 1971 Gen. Niazi surrendered, this time around Lt. Gen Khalid Kidwai would authorize a nuclear strike on India. Long Live Pakistan!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Your failed state exists because of the peices of s*hit thrown your way, by the americans, british etc, which pakis like you swallow without hesitation. You & your country BEGGARISTAN

— What does this make India which has taken much more aid than Pakistan?

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

remind me of a schizophrenic & delusional beggar, who sat in a dark ally covered in his own s*hit & filth, dreaming about ruling the world one day & barking obscenities at everyone walking by. People laughed at him & looked at him with contempt, disgust & pity. One day the beggar died, while a stray dog p*issed on his face.

— Sounds like a nice place this… Is it in India?

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

You may start in kashmir (although u r bankrupt, failed state) BUT WE WILL END the uprisings in Baluchistan, Pakhtunistan, Sindh et

— I will be sure to tell my family & friends about these uprisings you speak of. please call in advance so that we can coordinate against evil punjabis together.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

We will conclusively END it like we did in East Pakistan.

— Heroic Bangladeshis fight like lions and these gaandphutt lals walk in and take all the credit. Is there a sati type ritual for lonely virgins such as black sabbath?

Pakistan
a
s
h
m
zindabad
r

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

ALL PAKISTANIS ALL OVER THE WORLD, PLEASE GIVE GIVE GIVE TO OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN PAKISTAN KP and AZAAD KASHMIR.

OUR PEOPLE NEED YOUR HELP! OUR GOVT. WILL DO NOTHING, IT IS UP TO US.

EVERYTHING HELPS.

HERE IS INFO

RED CRESCENT ICRC:

Accepting donations:

ASDA 6-6 Askari Bank G8 Markaz Islamabad
Foreign currency account number 0083-02800002
Bank Alfalah LTD Jinnah Road Rawalpindi
Telephone number: +92-51-9250404/5

Food Items are being accepted for donations: dry milk, non perishable food items, lentils, and water at the nearest Red Crescent office

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

NOT AN INCH! Even if you summon entire force from your bleeding a$$es.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

“Heroic Bangladeshis fight like lions and these gaandphutt lals walk in and take all the credit.”

hahaha! Another cooked up LIE created by a son $1 a night paki randi & a paki pig. After YOUR SW**ine wimpistani army slaughtered 3 million bengalis, were the bengalis in any position to fight, c**hutiye? I know we raped your sorry c**nt of a nation pretty badly and it’s hard for u p*ussies to accept it but those are FACTS.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

I just donated $21 to Pakistani flood victims through Unicef Canada. (https://secure.unicef.ca/portal/SmartDe fault.aspx?at=1380)

Will Pakistanis here own it up and thank me or should I expect more smoke coming out of Threeface’s & Umair’s a$$es!

With salt, pepper and vinegar OR flowers and sympathy (take your pick),
Seth

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

ALL PAKISTANIS, DON’T WIRE ANY MONEY TO ANY ACCOUNT REFEREED BY THE FRAUD B*A*STARD ABOVE. THE MAN IS A COMPULSIVE HATER JIHADI & HE WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY, GET A BOMB & BLOW HIMSELF IN A MOSQUE. IF YOU WANT TO DONATE MONEY FOR THE FLOOD VICTIMS, PLEASE DO SO TO A LEGIT CHARITABLE INSTITUTION. THANKS.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@Black_Sabbath3
“$1 a night”

Just curious, does one swipe card or insert coin in this arrangement?

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

The account info I provided is from dawn. Here is the link with info on Red Crescent amongst others.

http://forum.dawn.com/2010/08/06/rise-an d-reach-out/

Salaam.
– Usman

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Another one bited the dust! everytime this sicko starts commenting on a thread, it just goes down the drain.

On another note, I encourage all Indians, Pakistanis & others to donate for relief of flood victims in Pakistan, if you haven’t done so already.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

typo “bites” the dust

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Seth:

no card. only cash (bill or coins) OR 2 medium cans of pig food for the hubby & son :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

on second thoughts, I take back my last comment.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Just curious, does one swipe card or insert coin in this arrangement?”
Posted by Seth09

card, coins, currency, all are accepted.

OPEN FOR BUSINESS 24/7

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

This blog was like a functioning democracy, let’s say like India…and then the Reuters people let jihadi spam and this place has turned into a shy@hole, let’s say like pakistan…

Jihadi posting seeking money from porkistanis is hilarious, as if the whole world doesn’t know the porkistanis depend on begging for living..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

“this time around Lt. Gen Khalid Kidwai would authorize a nuclear strike on India”
Posted by Umairpk

Before any C*h*utiya or gandu wimpistani general of your’s grows the b*alls to do that, he would be well advised to change pakistan’s name to ‘Kabristan’ because that’s exactly what your failed country will become!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@Seth

very true.

‘porkistan’, i like that!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

A resolution should be passed in the UN to change napakistan’s name. Here are some suggestions:

Terroristan

Beggaristan

Wimpistan

Porkistan

Failistan

Loseristan

C*h*utiyastan (full of ch*u..s)

Gandustan (full of g**dus)

F*^ckistan (has a history of gettin f****ed)

Rapistan (has a history of gettin raped)

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

on second thoughts, I take back my last comment.

— No need. I know your anti-islam, anti-muslim, anti-pakistan hatred very well.

Jihadi posting seeking money from porkistanis is hilarious, as if the whole world doesn’t know the porkistanis depend on begging for living..

— Yes, Pakistanis at home and abroad have no money. Only Indians have money. Every Indian is filthy rich. we know already. That is why 3 million work in terrible Islamic countries of the middle east. Poverty indexes and statistics are a conspiracy hatched by ISI against India.

— I am entertained by the lewd prostitution comments by Indians since there is no worse destination for pro_st_ituti_on than Mother India except maybe Thailand. With a history of “sacred” pro_st_ituti_on as part of Indo culture in the form of devdasism and a horrifying AIDS pandemic, we sure have some pot/kettle going on here.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

F*^ckistan (has a history of gettin f****ed)

— Really? Maybe this name is better suited for another country.

Ghaznavid Empire 963–1187
Mamluk dynasty 1206-1290
Khilji dynasty 1290-1320
Tughlaq dynasty 1320-1413
Sayyid dynasty 1414-1451
Lodhi dynasty 1451-1526
Mughal Empire 1526–1858
Durrani Empire 1747–1823
1761 Panipat III – Combined forces of Pushtuns & Balochis defeat Maratha army Northern India falls
The Second Battle of Tarain – Muhammad Ghori defeats Prithviraj Chauhan.
?1001: Mahmud Ghazni defeats the Hindu Shahi king Jayapala (A Janjua Rajput) near Peshawar
1021: Mahmud Ghazni defeats Tarnochalpal and annexes Punjab
Mahmud conquers Gujarat
Mahmud conquers Nagarkot
Mahmud conquers Thanesar
Mahmud conquers Gwalior
Mahmud conquers Ujjain
Mahmud defeats Chandellas of Khujarah
Mahmud defeats the Pratiharas of Kanauj
1527 Battle of Khanwa Babar defeats Rana Sanga Rajput confederates and takes Northern India

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

As a kashmiri, originally from Shopian, I find the rhetoric between Indians & Pakistanis quite amusing. As always, they are using a kashmiri platform to hurl insults at each other & indulge in an online verbal war.

I would like to make it clear to the Indians that although, complete independence of Kashmir might not be a realistic option, the status quo will not be tolerated. We want autonomy in the real sense of the term & not just merely in lip service. We want a drastic reduction in military presence & justice for the victims. We want the Govt of India to take concrete measures towards the prosperity & betterment of our people.

To the Pakistanis, I’d like to say that please don’t speak on our behalf & stop dreaming of ‘kashmir banega pakistan’ because that will not happen. We either want complete independence or autonomy & joining Pakistan is not an option for us.

Finally, India & Pakistan should work out their differences & grant either independence or complete autonomy to the kashmir controlled by them respectively. If we can make kashmiri borders on both sides irrelevant, while being autonomous regions of the two countries, we’ll take that. Our people have suffered too much for too long. For god’s sake, let us live in peace now.

Aziz Javeed
Vancouver, BC
Canada

Posted by Aziz_Javeed | Report as abusive
 

Example of Indian duplicity by Mortal.

On another note, I encourage all Indians, Pakistanis & others to donate for relief of flood victims in Pakistan, if you haven’t done so already.

Next comment…

no card. only cash (bill or coins) OR 2 medium cans of pig food for the hubby & son :)

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

“Aziz”, sounds good to me.

Here are some other opinions by kashmiris. None want irrelevant borders — but if that is what you want, Pakistan will be more than happy to support you.

Kashmir Forum
Kashmir Liberation Front
Hurriyat Conference
Mazameen-e-Ghai`b
~Kashmir~
Memoirs of a Kashmiri
Kashmir Views
Brainwaves Kashmir
Kashmir Currently
Tanveer and Kashmir
The Saints Are Coming
Saadat’s Blog
Timez of Kashmir
Kashmir Centre
[Kasheer]
Zarafshan
Sakooter Speaks
Propaganda against Kashmir countered
Candid Musings
United Kashmir
Occupied Kashmir – Taimur Ali
Kashur Kot-Sameer Bhat
Naveed Qazi’s blog
Kashir Koor
Abode of the Saints
A New World Order

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

again, the ch**tiya, ba**ster*dized piggy c*unt brings up events of 963, 1200, 1700, 1800 etc when India became an independent sovereign nation in 1947. get your head checked, u r*eta*rd!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@”No need. I know your anti-islam, anti-muslim, anti-pakistan hatred very well”
Posted by mirusmtupsha

Firstly, don’t flatter yourself with the delusion that I give a rat’s a$$ about your opinion of me and secondly, I wasn’t aware that a comment directed at you, is automatically directed towards Islam, all Muslims & all Pakistanis. Who do you think you are, the prophet Muhammad?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Here are some other opinions by kashmiris. None want irrelevant borders” — Posted by mirusmtupsha

ya, now that a real kashmiri has slapped on your face, try to patronize him with your nonsense. typical loser paki!

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@”We want a drastic reduction in military presence & justice for the victims. We want the Govt of India to take concrete measures towards the prosperity & betterment of our people”
Posted by Aziz_Javeed

Aziz, I will join you in demanding the above from the Indian Government.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Kashmiri statements:

“Seventeen Indian slumdog occupation troops have been killed after being buried alive in an avalanche near Khilanmarg. It’s a time to celebrate, to offer prayers of thanks, to hand out treats, to hug our fellow Kashmiris for this joyful news. If you are really keen, let’s also light up some loud firecrackers.”

We want freedom from Pakistan and India – Dr. Waleed Khan

“The yard stick for success in the Indian and Pakistani bureaucratic and political institutions still seems to be the capability to impede resolution rather than to facilitate resolution” – Independent Kashmir

“To Kashmiris, there was never any doubt that the current so-called “elected” administration of Omar Abdullah is a fake, propped-up puppet of New Delhi. They have been imposed upon Kashmir just to save face for India at international levels when in reality all the strings are pulled in New Delhi.” – Yousuf (KashmirTruthbeTold)

“It is worthwhile to note here that there is not a single pro-India blogger from Kashmir. So much for India’s claims that Kashmiris are pro-India! Even Omar Abdullah and his stooges gave up blogging when they ran out of lies to continue to justify India’s occupation.”

“This post reflects clearly that how much helpless we Kashmiris are in front of the worlds savageous army who shoots kids of Kashmiris for fun.Allahs calamity has fallen on 17 personell of Slumdog army and this has provided us a reason to rejoice.Allahs says no calamity befalls on you unless what your hands have earned so Indeed this is a punishment for the unbated atrocities committed on Kashmiris whoose only crime is that they oppose the occupation of their land their air and their life by Slumdogs.” – Dr. Waleed Sheikh

“Again, keep aside your narrow minded prejudices. Have you gone through our blogs here? Exactly where do you see references to Pakistan media? Just because you Indians habitually take what your media spews as holy scriptures, doesnt mean us Kashmiris rely on Pakistan media.”

“After former Yugoslavia, it is India’s turn to naturally disintegrate (I cannot wait until the day when we can finally refer to India as “former India”). Just imagine, had the former unnatural federation of balkan states, called Yugoslavia, not unravelled, we would still be witnessing the grotesque bloodshed that the Serbs perpetrated during the 80?s and 90?s”

“Not only must the world censure India for it’s heinous acts in Kashmir, the world must also move toward policies that call for India’s disintegration. They should do this to ensure world peace.”
“You did not bear the humiliation that we living Kashmiris bear everyday. You stood up to the Indian dogs and resisted like brave men and women do. Sacrificing your lives for freedom, justice and honour”

As always, the official Indian response to local demands for self-determination has been to portray the Kashmiri freedom struggle as terrorism and a threat to Indian “democracy”. The insistence of this rhetoric borders on hypocrisy. – KashmirLiberationFront

All Parties Hurriyet Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has strongly denounced the illegal detention of pro-movement leaders and activists. – JKAPCH

“And while thou native were riddled with bullets. My long dead soul was chasing dreams. While blood oozed and they watched unconcerned. While thou were gasping for each labouring breath” – ~ Kahsmir ~

“Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control and across the world observed Indian Republic Day, today, as Black Day – Kashmir Freedom Movement” – Memoirs of a Kashmiri

At least 1 lakh patients suffering from conflict-induced trauma as also suicidal tendencies in Kashmir have visited psychiatric consultancy centre in Government Psychiatric Hospital during 2008. – Kashmir View
A Kashmiri Terrorist,11 months old ambushed Indian army. His killers Indian Occupational army are roaming free and looking for a new prey.Is there anyone to stop them?

When people see an oppressor but do not prevent him from (doing evil), it is likely that Allah will punish them all.-Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Source: Abu Dawood and Al-Tirmidhi

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

A comment from a Kashmiri:

Sir,

I am a Kashmiri and was very happy to see a write up by a Pakistani brother. One thing I would like to mention here is that although Kashmiris predominantly want Independence, our relationship with you is like that of blood brothers, Insha Allah one day we will live side by side just like how Countries in EEU live or even better just like how Wales n England live side by side under one umbrella.

India is the most deceitful, biased, crooked n undemocratic country in the world. The democracy of India is just limited to holding elections n over 40% of the people elected r goons with a blatant criminal record.

In my humble Kashmiri opinion INDIA as a democracy is the biggest,greatest psych-ops scandal of the 20th century. It is anything but a democracy.

Gus Kormakh Khudayas Hawali( May God protect you brother)

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

It is better to die at the hands of the Indian slum dogs than see our mothers,sisters and daughters ra ped. It is better to die than watch Indian slum dogs use our kids aged 12 and 13 as target practice.

Brother we have no choice but to keep our struggle going on. The saddest part is that under president Musharraf Pakistan gave away too much ground to the devious Indians. This has been a major setback to us Kashmiris as India was able to portray our just political struggle as nothing but International Terrorism. Now Zardari talks about future generations solving Kashmir—-has he gone mad or what? India is continuously changing the demographics of J&K. In Jammu division, it has managed to settle hundreds of thousands of punjabi hindus/sikhs and if it continues at this rate, India will more than welcome a UN mediated plebiscite in the next 20-30 years.

I hope our Pakistani brothers reverse Musharaf’s policies n continue their support towards their Kashmiri brethren. Brother we have lost more than 120,000 our brothers n sisters to Indian bullets…..we need you more than ever before in this hour of grief n sorrow. Please don’t leave our side as you are our only comrades in this bit -chy world.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

MJ Akbar writes a beautiful piece:
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com  /TheSiegeWithin/entry/a-valley-riven-by -anger

“Estimates differ but the death toll in Kashmir between June and the first week of August is around 40. Rampaging Muhajirs, outraged at the murder of their Shia leader, Syed Raza Haider on Monday, have killed more than 80 and injured hundreds of Pashtuns in Karachi. This was not a Hindu-Muslim riot; this was Muslim-Muslim carnage. Muhajirs are UP-Bihar migrants who left their land in 1947 for the Promised Land. Six decades later, they need private militias to defend themselves because they offend Pathans in a “pure” country that has virtually eliminated “infidels” from its demography.

It is an evil moment in history when a corpse-count becomes the comparative difference between two nations. A fact is staring at us: 1947 unhinged Muslims of the subcontinent, and a once-cogent community is split politically and psychologically, inflamed by passions that veer between unhealthy fear, violent anger and dysfunctional dreams. If Kashmiri Muslims believe they can achieve independence, then they understand neither India nor Pakistan.”

IF KASHMIRI MUSLIMS BELIEVE THEY CAN ACHIEVE INDEPENDENCE, THEN THEY UNDERSTAND NEITHER INDIA NOR PAKISTAN.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

God has made blood relations are for sucking blood only – Bangladeshis were blood brothers too, you guys drank their blood instead.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

@beggar-blogger,

What about my $21 donation? Albeit, I’m sure it would reach the needy flood victims in Pakistan (don’t think UNICEF distributes aid through Pakistani Army), I was hoping to see a courtesy nod from the freelance beggar. Anyways, my act has accomplished its real purpose and I’m satisfied with it.

When are you going to post “we beg you” in context of Kashmir again? It was very sweetly amusing to see a Pakistani’s passion for fighting someone else’s battle and getting so deeply involved to forsake his own dignity. Once more, once more!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

No one could have said it better…Bravo MJ Akbar.

One consistent trait of paki army is to overestimate their capabilities and underestimate India. Million things are collapsing in the paki country, paki pm is loudly begging for aid, things are going to get much worse if they are already not worse enough…and paki army thinks they are “liberating” Kashmir..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

G-W: “Dismemberment and disintegration will one day befall Pakistan.”

Pakistan’s history seems to track with that of Aurangzeb’s regime. Aurangzeb, despite having the largest area under his rule in the sub-continent, never spent his time governing. He spent all his life in conflicts. For 28 years he spent his time in tents fighting for expanding his empire into the Deccan. As soon as he died, his empire collapsed from within. Aurangzeb negated all the progress achieved under Akbar in forging amity between various ethnic groups inside India. Akbar spent a considerable amount of his time governing his empire. Aurangzeb killed off all his siblings and their families. India became like current day Afghanistan and turned into a swamp. It made it very easy for the British East India company to walk in and take over the entire sub-continent.

If we look at Pakistan, they have one and only one thing – their military. And this military has eagerly taken part in conflicts – regional and global. The whole country has become one Jihad factory. Nothing has been done to build a stable nation. Pakistan now has more advanced nuclear arsenal and delivery systems than India. They do not seem to know where to draw the line. They have gone beyond nuclear parity with India. With chaos, economy in shambles, corruption, radicalism etc they have turned their country into the next Afghanistan. All it is going to take is one trigger like Aurangzeb’s death. Pakistan is going to implode and that is going to make today look like a picnic.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Some more introspection, by Nadeem Pracha (Dawn):

“Pakistani society is going through a gradual breakdown. A number of us are lashing out, hoping to find all kinds of enemies to attack for our misfortunes. India, Israel, the US, the UK, Ahamdis, Hindus, Christians, Barelvi, Shias… President Zardari, anyone or everyone but our own individual acts and morals.

It is an act of selective nihilism in which most Pakistanis refuse to trust or listen to state institutions and the government; but then let this hard mixture of cynicism and defiance melt away when engaged by clever, media-savvy chameleons.

The latter make a name and a game out of giving vent to all the repressed strains of religious bigotry, political hatred and delusions of grandeur now brewing in the collective psyche of middle-class Pakistan. It reminds one of the damaged and hurt Germany on the eve of Hitler’s take-over.

A country ravaged by economic downturns, violence and low self-esteem, and looking for ‘enemies’ (Jews, communists, gypsies, blacks) to pin the blame on. This attitude became fascist Germany’s rallying cry for regeneration, but ended up in its own destruction.

We already have the army fighting a battle with armed fanatics. But what about a lot of those working in offices and studying in schools and colleges? These are ‘educated’ folks who may not be armed or look like the Taliban, but many have views close to what the fanatics advocate.

These are the people who would exhibit more disgust at the sight of a politician than they would at the sight of blown up bodies of innocent men, women and children; people who would scream vengeance at the plight of Dr Afia Siddiqui but look the other way when a woman is gang raped in their own Islamic republic; people who would bribe a cop to avoid a traffic violation ticket and yet find themselves above corruption.

The ‘educated’ today require an education based on facts and truth instead of what they were taught at school as ‘history’ and ‘ethics.’

An education that highlights the importance of tolerance, plurality and democracy instead of the kind of education most of us continue to be given at schools and by the media, which is based on arrogance and paranoia against imagined enemies.”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

This piece started off being on Kashmir and as usual has descended into the usual to-and-fro. Sometimes, I wonder who is the intended audience since no one seems to be listening.

My ongoing concern seems to be that India has “lost” Kashmir. Even the Indian press has begun to express a sense of hopelessness.

http://bit.ly/c0vAeE
http://bit.ly/bCPcw6

The question is not so much who’s to blame as what do we do now? I guess I may be forgiven for thinking a velvet divorce is the best option. Perhaps it’s only the Kashmir valley that wants out and not Jammu or Ladakh, but matters seem to have reached a point of no return, and I’m not optimistic that “good governance” can make much difference now. An amicable goodbye may not be such a bad thing. The focus should now be on the logistics of such a separation if we are to avoid another bloodbath like Partition.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(I cannot post a comment. Reuters, please look into your website!)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(I don’t understand why it is so difficult to post a comment. Reuters, please do some urgent debugging of your site!)

This piece started off being on Kashmir and as usual has descended into the usual to-and-fro. Sometimes, I wonder who is the intended audience since no one seems to be listening.

My ongoing concern seems to be that India has “lost” Kashmir. Even the Indian press has begun to express a sense of hopelessness.

http://bit.ly/c0vAeE
http://bit.ly/bCPcw6

(to be continued)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

This is a trivial comment to test the Reuters site.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

This is a trivial comment to test the Reuters website.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Aurangzeb, despite having the largest area under his rule in the sub-continent, never spent his time governing.

— Pray to all of your gods that this man gave you a country that never existed prior to his conquests.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Maybe I should trying posting something abusive for a change. That seems to be the magic formula for success!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

I tried prefacing my comment by calling everyone else a so-and-so, but Reuters wasn’t fooled :-). I still can’t post.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Reuters detects “duplicate comments”, but doesn’t display the original!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Retrying without links)

This piece started off being on Kashmir and as usual has descended into the usual to-and-fro. Sometimes, I wonder who is the intended audience since no one seems to be listening.

My ongoing concern seems to be that India has “lost” Kashmir. Even the Indian press has begun to express a sense of hopelessness.

(Links removed)

The question is not so much who’s to blame as what do we do now? I guess I may be forgiven for thinking a velvet divorce is the best option. Perhaps it’s only the Kashmir valley that wants out and not Jammu or Ladakh, but matters seem to have reached a point of no return, and I’m not optimistic that “good governance” can make much difference now. An amicable goodbye may not be such a bad thing. The focus should now be on the logistics of such a separation if we are to avoid another bloodbath like Partition.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

NFP is an idio-t, Indian military has made invaded pakistan’s siachen glacier and turned it into a typical indian slum, they murder kashmiris daily yet NFP thinks we have imagined a threat out of nowhere.

Reuters please help Ganesh. He is the only decent Indian here.

Rest of you haters, listen up — I have to go but don’t you dare put your dhotis down. I will be back very soon.

– The legendary and incomparable — Mirza Usman

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Links do seem to be the problem!

Try bit.ly/c0vAeE and bit.ly/bCPcw6

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Kashmiri’s

You can kiss your culture and your aspirations for a country good bye.

Pakistan will occupy you and erase the existence of your culture and rewrite your history.

India has tried to keep Kashmiri’s happy, but Pakistan has readicalized your youth and hijacked their potential to be somebody other than puppet brick throwers for Pakistan.

As Bengal was ravaged by Pakistan, so will all of Kashmir, if Pakistan steps foot.

One day when Kashmiri’s wake up and realize that the invisible hands of Islambad have been playing with their futures as a front from Sunni empire expansion, it will be too late for Kashmiri’s, Kashmir nation will be no more, but another occupied country by Pakistan.

Pakistan wants Kashmir land and Kashmiri’s are unknowingly depleting their sovereignty as they are being kept distracted by India the green eyed devil. The devil is actually in the exact opposite direction.

After Kashmir, the Pakistani’s keep wanting to claw away land from India proper and that will never happen not in 10billion years even.

Kashmiri’s need to wake up and take charge of their futures and leave religion out of this, this has to do purely with cultural and ethnic sovereignty.

India will deliver on promises and will give more than 50 percent, as long as Pakistan delivers on 1948 UN resolutions.

Pakistan has done an exemplary job of almost wiping out Kashmiri culture the last saved portion of Kashmiri culture is actually saved, oddly enough in the portion of Kashmir that is in “struggle” with India.

No wories about that, Pakistan wants to destroy, take over and occupy even Indian Kashmir for its own.

As Umair, a Pakistani blogger said “Kashmir Banega Pakistan”.

I hope Kashmiri’s can sleep at night while Pakistan has parked a trojan horse in their yard and slowly chewing Kashmir up for themselves.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Mirza,

You must feel perpetually defiled and dirty, knowingly having Hindu blood in your body. You see generations back, looters, thugs, rapists, genociders and murderers like Aurangzeb thought it be best to not work for an honest living, but steel from others.

It does not matter anymore. India has risen above oppressive Islamic and Colonial occupation and persevered and preserved the integrity of its culture and nation for the most part.

India is a global grade nation, with lots of billionaires, the best IT people on earth, a large amount of exports, its own Aerospace and Defence research and development and the most educated diaspora in NA, UK and world over. Indians are preferred and liked.

If you get a chance, please watch the new show “Outsourced” or “Harold and Kumar”. We Indians do not take ourself too seriosly and don’t mind integrating with others. Indians are becoming a part of mainstream culture. The last I checked, Pakistan is always in the news due to terrorism, aid money or other matters like wikigate, but generally, nothing noteworthy or good.

It is a sad thing that some of you Pakistani’s, that all you have got left is the glory of yesteryear, no real futures to look forward and burning jealousy at how well India has done. Terrorism and militantism is not working out the way you hoped, and it has spread the militant cancer, so all you got left is swear words and jibber jabber, nothing wholesome or honest to say.

Just angry, tirades and name calling, go ahead and have it, we continue to burn ahead and leave you way behind, as the Indians look towards the moon and the stars. Your rantings and savage ways are becoming irrelevant. If it brings honour and peace to your soul to tear up Indians and make fun of them, go ahead and waste your time, as you have nothing more productive to offer for yourself, or your country men.

In the Koran, I believe it says to be grateful everyday when you wake up, even if you have nothing. Oddly enough, most Hindus actually do have this philosophy. We will share even the other half of our roti and dal, even if there is not enough for us. This actually a christian like principle too.

Are you grateful for anything other than bad will on Indians?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

You first care about the knot of your checkerd tahmat. Your pinky may show up and we don’t want the entertainer khusra here to be stoned to death by few mullahs.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

Randi bachha Mirza ‘ch*u*tiya’ usman,

Don’t worry, we’ll keep our dhotis on & up and keep banging your beloved F*u*ckistan till it becomes ‘Nonexistantistan’! hahaha

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

“NFP is an idio-t” -Posted by mirusmtupsha

Yes, anyone who does not agree with this bigoted, dim-witted & hate-mongering self-proclaimed journalist c*h*u*tiya, is an idiot. I’m sure Pracha would consider it as a compliment coming from this jerk off.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

(The Reuters bug is back, even though I posted no links this time.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Testing

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 1)

Both Indians and Pakistanis ascribe far too much power to the other country to do damage to theirs. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much venom. In actual fact, the other country has far less power to screw things up for us than we ourselves do. We can each see that this is true in the case of the other country’s problems, but we can’t see it in our own!

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 2)

Case study 1 (Bangladesh 1971): Much as the Pakistanis may blame India for plotting nefariously to break up their country, India would have been powerless to do anything to a united Pakistan. It was the West Pakistanis who screwed things up for themselves, first by denying Sheikh Mujibur Rehman’s victory in the national election, then embarking on a genocide of the Bengalis. India’s role was opportunistic and timely, but let no one be deceived about its power to effect a breakup alone. The will of the Bengali people to be free of West Pakistan was what was primarily responsible for the freedom of Bangladesh. India’s support was a help, not the main cause.

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 3)

Case study 2 (Kashmir today): Much as Indians may blame Pakistan-sponsored terror for the situation in Kashmir, it’s undeniable that the Indian government has screwed up big time in Kashmir.

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 4 – this is the problematic bit)

R i g g e d e l e c t i on s, p o o r g o v e r n m e n t a n d n e a r – c o n s t a n t p o l i c e / m i l i t a r y o p p r e s s i o n h a v e d o n e m o r e t o a l i e n a t e K a s h m i r i s t h a n a n y t h i n g P a k i s t a n c o u l d h a v e d o n e. P a k i s t a n i s u p p o r t h a s b e e n u s e f u l, b u t w h a t h a s f u e l l e d t h e K a s h m i r i l o a t h i n g f o r I n d i a i s n e i t h e r t e r r o r i s m n o r s o m e p a n – I s l a m i c s e n t i m e n t, b u t q u i t e s i m p l y N e w D e l h i ‘ s b u n g l i n g a n d w o r s e.

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 5)

It’s pathetic to hear Chidambaram ask the people of Kashmir for more time and patience. What have successive governments been doing?

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Part 6)

So let’s stop harping on external threats. They’re overblown compared to the deadly potential of our own mistakes to impact us.

Pakistan can covet as much of Indian territory as it wants. It will only gain what India gives it on a platter through sheer incompetence and bad management.

Pakistanis would similarly do well to look inwards rather than outwards to solve the problems of their country. India has little power to dislodge Baluchistan from Pakistan – bad Pakistani policies do.

As one of my college lecturers told the class, “I don’t *give* marks. You *get* marks.”

Regards,
Ganesh

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

(Reuters should really fix its software. This is ridiculous.)

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Aziz Javeed:

@I would like to make it clear to the Indians that although, complete independence of Kashmir might not be a realistic option, the status quo will not be tolerated. We want autonomy in the real sense of the term & not just merely in lip service. We want a drastic reduction in military presence & justice for the victims. We want the Govt of India to take concrete measures towards the prosperity & betterment of our people.”
Aziz Javeed
Vancouver, BC
Canada

—I FULLY support what you said above and I agree that no one should speak on behalf of kashmiris.

But don;t you find sad that Pakistan has hijacked the Kashmir issue and are calling the shots as far as it boils down to kashmiri leadership? Where is the true leadership for Kashmir. Which Kashmiri leader would you like to represent the Kashmiris? ‘kashmir banega pakistan’ policy is formal in Azad Kashmir and with the given Kashmiri leadership, no wonder Pakistan wants to extend that to Kashmir in India. Asking for self-determination when they have pre-determined is laughable.

Kashmiris will live in peace when they get together and do not give control to others to decide. But this also means that leadership should not be blind about what to ask. Asking for the impossible is not possible. this may sound harsh but I guess you sense it already. However not every Kashmiri senses that.

Best

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Great work there Black Sabbath!!! Jihadi beggar tackled well.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Another indication of “bad” relations between Indian & Bangladesh:

“India gives $1 billion loan to Bangladesh”

http://way2online.com/?p=79205

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Sorry I do not to be rude, Perhaps it has not been realised that the english is a germanic language and requires the knowledge of maths and logic. There are many other languages including Indian,arabic and Italians which are more suitable for expression of feelings and emotions. There are some including Mr Mirza who concentrate on fact and events which I find very interesting, but please use your own language in romans to better express your emotions. Mr Mirone

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal1

And people thought I was off, when I said that Pakistan is starting to resemble pre-WWII Germany. Glad to see that Paracha has reached the exact same conclusion.

Back then, the Nazis talked about race and how that made the better than their neighbours. Today, Pakistanis talk about religion and how this makes them better than their neighbours.

That’s a simplistic explanation, of course. But culturally, there are some very striking historical parallels between Germany under the Nazis and the current state of Pakistan. And the trends here should be worrying, not just for Pakistanis, but for their neighbours and the world.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Clown: “Aurangzeb, despite having the largest area under his rule in the sub-continent, never spent his time governing.

— Pray to all of your gods that this man gave you a country that never existed prior to his conquests.”

Aurangzeb never gave anything to anyone. His goal was not to create a huge nation for others. It was for himself. And in the bargain, he made mostly enemies and no friends. His own sons turned against him. Your ignorance clearly shows. Like Aurangzeb’s empire that collapsed from within, Pakistan is on the same brink. That’s what I was pointing at. But your pea-brain did not pick that up.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”And the trends here should be worrying, not just for Pakistanis, but for their neighbours and the world.”
Posted by kEiThZ

More of a reason for the world to collectively disarm Pakistan, of it’s nukes. Imagine, what Hitler would’ve done, if he had nukes!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rest of you haters, listen up — I have to go but don’t you dare put your dhotis down. I will be back very soon.
– The legendary and incomparable — Mirza Usman

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD.
Posted by mirusmtupsha

—This legend puts his stupid “dhoti” comment. he should know that there exists a rapidly depleting minority in his country which wears dhoti. If a dhoti wearing hindu in pakistan says a thing about Mirza;s foot long beard, a blood thirsty crowd will wipe him off Pakistan;s face—-Mirza and police being the audience.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@you are right! It was Pakistan that stuck its nose in sri lanka (only to be kicked out), east pakistan (only to be kicked out),
Posted by mirusmtupsha

–actually East Pakistan was Pakistan’s nose cut by India in the “best interest of Pakistan”.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Pakistani’s

Please read some works of Nadeem Paracha, his writings are mind opening.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“Imagine, what Hitler would’ve done, if he had nukes!”

Horrible imagination! But certainly plausible with the path Pakistan has set on to.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1: “More of a reason for the world to collectively disarm Pakistan, of it’s nukes. Imagine, what Hitler would’ve done, if he had nukes!”

This is going to be extremely difficult. The US could not do anything even to the Taliban. Going to war with Pakistan is the worst move. And now Iran is coming on board. It is a terrible move made by the US in allowing Pakistan to acquire the nukes in order to achieve its objectives of defeating the Soviet Union. I think the USSR was lesser of the evils when compared to the radical Islamic monster that has emerged out of this war. The US did everything to deflect any attempts to catch the Pakistanis from stealing the technology, erased evidences and tipped the Pakistanis off as it was gaining against the Soviet Union. Little did it realize that one day it will face a much worse enemy. Pakistani nuclear scientists have met with Al Qaeda operatives and Bin Laden before 9/11. Now the US and its allies will have to live with the fear of dirty bombs going off in their countries. Shazad did a simple demonstration of that. This is only a precursor of what is to come. In 1993 they blasted a van load of explosives under the WTC. In 2001, they flew planes into it. Connect the dots. Short sighted approach has led to long term problems. No one is even talking about Pakistani nukes today, which must be the highest priority for everyone. Pakistan now has more nuclear arsenal and delivery systems than it really needs. Excess material is not being generated out of security concerns. They are for sale. Pakistan is going to black mail the rest of the world with proliferation threat soon. They have nothing else. With the flooding, they have lost everything. There is only their military and nukes. And they will need money fast. What they have been getting is pittance in aid. The US is focusing on the wrong enemies as usual. Earlier it was Saddam Hussein. Now it is Iran. The real villain is their ally. How comical things are!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh,

I agree that a grave a mistake has been made by the US/west by letting Pakistan develop nuclear weapons in the first place but the realization of a nuclear threat emanating from Pakistan, has been setting in for quite some time now, although it is mostly in the context of jihadis/rogue elements taking over their nukes. Behind the scenes, I’m sure plans have been put in place & excercises been conducted to take over/destroy Pakistan’s nukes, as & when necessary. I understand that war with Pakistan would be a bad idea (especially at this time) but I don’t think that the US/west will simply get used to jihadis blowing up bombs in our cities. If a terror attack like 9/11 (or even something on a smaller scale) were to happen in the US & it is traced to Pakistan, you can be assured that all guns will be immediately pointed towards Pakistan. I also find it hard to imagine that a country the size of Pakistan, can survive just by proliferating nuclear technology & selling weapons to rogue states. Yes, it may fill up the coffers of some Generals at the top but sooner or later, the country is bound to implode & splinter.

On a lighter note, here’s some wishful thinking regarding Pakistan’s nukes by WSJ’s Bret Stephens (older article):

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB  :SB122939093016909205.html

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

It appears that Pakistan’s all-weather friend China is not that good a friend, not during heavy monsoons at least! Chinese government has decided to donate a HANDSOME amount of $1.5 USD while losses are estimated to surpass 10 billion USD.

Compare this to $100 millions from Saudis (Well, Oil iz well!), $10 million from “evil” Americans, $10 millions from British (whose PM openly accused Pakistan of fomenting terrorism in world).

This also requires mentioning of $5 million given by India to Haiti earthquake victims, a country whose location probably cannot be correctly pointed out on map by 90% of the Indians and have neither historical ties nor political benefits for India.

If only Pakistanis would open up their eyes and give up resorting to hatred that is eating them like a cancer…

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Mortal,

I saw the article. Remember the duplicitous nature of the Pak system – they might agree to give up their nukes, get 100 billion in the bargain and will go back to making more nukes after that. North Korea has becomea repository of such assets. And they will demand that India lay down its nukes, which India will refuse because of Chinese nukes. So the chain continues. Bribing Pakistan to give up its nukes is the most idiotic strategy. You have no idea how passionate every Pakistani is about the nukes. Money won’t make a dent. The US has put itself and other countries on danger’s course by taking up Pakistan as an ally. Many elements inside Pakistan have grown up and have become independent in their plans and actions. They may not even listen to Pakistan’s authorities soon. TTP has already started along that line. Al Qaeda is always there. I will not be surprised if LeT goes it alone if Pakistan begins towards reconciling with India. And all these elements have their network connections with elements inside Pakistani military and the ISI. They will simply blackmail any reasonable Pakistani by setting up problems elsewhere and causing the other countries to target Pakistan. Mumbai attacks were staged with that goal in mind and India is difficult to wake up from slumber. But other countries might not be as polite. If Iran explodes the nukes, the US will stage attacks against it to protect Saudi Arabia and Israel. To do that they will need Pakistan again. So Pakistan will get its money and help prolong the conflict with Iran and milk the US and its dumb allies. I do not have any idea how this monster is going to be contained.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

More dangerous than Pakistan minimal nuclear deterrence capacity is dumb people wrongly believing they are intelligent. I am referring here to dumb and dumber (Kp and mortal). These two H1B clowns think they are more knowledgeable/intelligent than America. Typical Indian unjustified arrogance. You are not special! you can write Cobol programs for 2 dollars per day, that’s it! That is the extent of your so-called competitive advantage.

Let’s review this tragic-comedy:

KP1 – If Iran explodes the nukes, the US will stage attacks against it to protect Saudi Arabia and Israel.

–Your turbaned highnesses, If US attacks Iran for the purpose of protecting Israel, it will be BEFORE they reach nuclear capability not after.

KP2 – To do that they will need Pakistan again.

–Pakistan will NOT assist against the republic of Iran.

KP3 – The US has put itself and other countries on danger’s course by taking up Pakistan as an ally

–For example the defeat of USSR which threatened all of EURASIA unlike Pakistan which threatens only India.

KP4 – It is a terrible move made by the US in allowing Pakistan to acquire the nukes in order to achieve its objectives of defeating the Soviet Union

–U.S. could do nothing. After 1971, Pakistan was assisted by Libya, Iran, Saudi, UAE financially, China and North Korea technologically.

MORTAL1 – Behind the scenes, I’m sure plans have been put in place & excercises been conducted to take over/destroy Pakistan’s nukes, as & when necessary.

–Our strategy to counter such stupidity is brilliant in its simplicity. If anyone attempts to disrupt the deterrence equation, we will let loose on India. If we go down, we are taking you for a ride to hell. Thus, it is in India’s interest to use its increasing influence to guarantee our own security!

Love.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

I forgot the villainous evil pakistani laugh…

MUHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHA

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

You must feel perpetually defiled and dirty, knowingly having Hindu blood in your body. You see generations back, looters, thugs, rapists, genociders and murderers like Aurangzeb thought it be best to not work for an honest living, but steel from others.

It does not matter anymore. India has risen above oppressive Islamic and Colonial occupation and persevered and preserved the integrity of its culture and nation for the most part.

India is a global grade nation, with lots of billionaires, the best IT people on earth, a large amount of exports, its own Aerospace and Defence research and development and the most educated diaspora in NA, UK and world over. Indians are preferred and liked.

If you get a chance, please watch the new show “Outsourced” or “Harold and Kumar”. We Indians do not take ourself too seriosly and don’t mind integrating with others. Indians are becoming a part of mainstream culture.

— yes, but you are still ugly.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani PM Mr. Gilani says:

“I want to send delegations including opposition members to various countries, including Muslim states, to inform their leaders about the extent of devastation,”

Accept it or not, reading from right to left has altered their brain structure permanently and cracked their skulls. Can you imagine any other country’s PM invoking religion to separate out the help at the time of such a crucial disaster? Did “Muslim countries” really require a separate mention? Does it also mean that a food packet coming from “Non-Muslim countries” will not satiate the hunger of terrible soul on roof as much as coming from a “Muslim nation”? This exclusivism even at the hour of death is just sad!

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/fron t-page/19-politicians-to-seek-world-help -080-hh-07

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

(ignoring the mumbling lunatic with a perpetual brain-itch)

KP,

The article was purely for amusement purposes. Simplistic wishful thinking at best! I’m certainly aware of the love affair, Pakistanis have with their nukes (especially after my interaction with Umair & the likes of him). But again, we also know that Pakistani leaders (millitary & civilian) are as greedy, corrupt & self-centered as they come. So, who’s to say that after a deal is made by stuffing enough $$$ in their faces, they won’t turn around to their countrymen & give it all a positive twist. Anyways, something will have to be done & the sooner the better. We’ll just have to wait & watch it unfold.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

looks like Randi Bachha ‘mirusmtupsha’ is back after getting gang-raped by pigs in the s*hithole sty called karachi. The jihadi b*s*tard’s frustration, after the rejection of his US visa application, can be seen by his obsession with H1-B & jealousy of Indians. The self proclaimed journo ch*u*tiya doesn’t realize that he’s not even qualified to clean the toilets of indians like mortal, kpsingh & others. He deserves to spend his sad & pathetic life in the hell-hole called Shi*tistan (formerly pakistan) as no country should grant visas to terrorist sh*itistanis.

@For example the defeat of USSR which threatened all of EURASIA unlike Pakistan which threatens only India.

Ch*ut*iye, that was more than 20 yrs ago. Today, Pakistan = Terroristan.

@Pakistan will NOT assist against the republic of Iran.

You will sell your mothers & children for the right price. That’s your culture & history.

@U.S. could do nothing. After 1971, Pakistan was assisted by Libya, Iran, Saudi, UAE financially, China and North Korea technologically.

Utter nonsense, You have always been a slave of the US & without US permission, your generals don’t even take a dump, let alone develop nukes.

@If anyone attempts to disrupt the deterrence equation, we will let loose on India.

You moronic c*unt, for the last time, India is close to developing a defense sheild which will detect movement of your chinese nukes (if the work). The worst case scenario would be that India will lose a city or 2 & 100 mill people but the retaliatory strike will turn napakistan into kabristan forever.

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

> If anyone attempts to disrupt the deterrence equation, we will let loose on India.

> The worst case scenario would be that India will lose a city or 2 & 100 mill people but the retaliatory strike will turn napakistan into kabristan forever.

Pretty casual about it all, aren’t we? I hope the people who actually have their fingers on the nuclear triggers have an inkling of the terrible responsibility on their shoulders. Psychological testing should be a mandatory part of the criteria for selection into these positions. Some of us here wouldn’t cut it, I’m afraid…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

guys,
i guess there has been enuf hatred for past 60 years without a solution. may be pakistan can wait till 2600 AD but not the kashmiris and neither can india. i dont think any genuine (difficult to say who is genuine in these blogs) kashmiri would want to be annexed by pakistan on the eve of their first independence day (if there is one), i guess kashmiris would prefer autonomy under india instead of an independence of 1 day to be followed by annexation by pakistan. for india i believe a scotland-britain like solution is best possible way where kashmir has full independence on laws and internal affairs but overall defence, external affairs and currency remain the same. but this silly cong government has grossly mishandled kashmir.

note: a few days back i posted somethings on these rueters blogs as 007xxx but then “reuters india” allowed me to login but not post comments apparently because blog authentication was done from “reuters usa”. so now i created a account with “reuters usa”. If reuters intentionally blocked me from blogging as 007xxx then please let me know and also shut down this current login as well. and if it was some bug in “reuters india” site then its okay, bugs happen.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

May God help the flood victims of Pakistan. Everybody should donate, including all Indians, help your Pakistani brothers in time of need.

Perhaps this catastrophe will make Pakistani’s realize that militantism and hatred is a waste of time and energy, best to focus on developing your country through legitimate means and hard work, rather than terrorism.

India is always willing to help and give, as long as Paks unclench their fists.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/ asia/13kashmir.html?_r=1&hp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-as ia-10925145

Kashmiri brothers,

Do not think we have forgotten you. We are undergoing some difficult times right now. We will be back to support you. The liberation of Kashmir from the clutches of India will be done this time. Americans are going home after seeing the resilience of our people. They could not last beyond ten years. Now there is only Kashmir left to be freed. I will soon frame the photograph of the Indian army chief signing his surrender papers to a Pakistani general. You can be an independent nation. So long as you are free, that is all matters to us. Inshallah! It will happen.

Posted by Mohammad_Anjum | Report as abusive
 

An anecdote from an insider to both friends and foes of Pakistan.. some of you may have read Ahmad Rashid’s book on the Kargil affair..
In 1999, the Mush, who planned and launched his Kargil strategy to invade and plant the flag in Srinagar, came very close to triggering a “pre-emptive tactical trike on the nuclear pads”. The collateral damage is massive leaks killing tens of thousands of innocent Pakistanis, a then acceptable risk to the Pakistan Elite. It was the then USA President Bill Clinton who put a stop to this “madness”…
The Indian General Staff, to this day, believe they can “take them out” at will, forcing the Mush and General Kayani to develop a “scatter site” strategy to thwart the Indian Generals… the downside being it is now easier for the Pakistan Taliban to “way-lay” fissonable material while its on the move from “secret” location to “secret” location… making it now a US General Petraeus nightmare..

Posted by Bludde | Report as abusive
 

@Bludde,

You can never trust Pakistan.

If Pakistani’s ISI state agency is helping the Taliban subvert NATO, as per wiki leaks and as implied by the Afghans, what is stopping the Pakistani agencies to giving nuclear material to the LeT, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda or any one else?

What confidence does the world have that Pakistan won’t start selling or turning over nuxlear bxmbs to rogue terrorists, just to get at India or the West, and claim plausible denial at the same time and keep claiming that they don’t have anything to do with it?

Are we just supposed to trust guys like Mushie, Kayani, Pasha and Kidwai, these are the same elite that kept lying to India, the U.S. and NATO. These are the least trust worthy of allies, the U.S. has ever seen.

What is stopping these liars from telling the ultimate lies….especially those to do with nuclear material?……NOTHING!

The proliferators of terrorism are the same guys who supposedly guard the Pak Nxkes.

Does anybody see a global catastrophe in the making?

Trust and integrity, there is none left in Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

At the end of the day, the biggest road block to regional peace in South asia is the Punjabi elite in Pakistan and their maniacal need to have enemies and their warped desire to have weapons of mass destruction against a fictitiously perceived enemy.

There is no reason why India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and all other satellite countries form a strong trade pact and work together to solve all regional issues peacefully.

Pakistan’s greatest enemy, even bigger than terrorism, is real peace with all its neighbours.

Nothing terrifies Islamabad and Rawalpindi more than becoming obselete in a region that has peace, that is why they will work relentlessly to keep sowing terrorism to keep their own jobs and fill their own pockets to keep extorting cash. It is acceptable to them that a certain number of their own will suffer in the process, as potential Pakistani loses were also acceptable in Kargill.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Mohammad Anjum said:

> I will soon frame the photograph of the Indian army chief signing his surrender papers to a Pakistani general.

Even Freud and his couch could not have brought these feelings out so clearly. And the people who harbour these feelings were probably not even born in 1971. How do we overcome a collective thirst on the part of an entire nation to avenge a perceived humiliation?

I fear that peace is very elusive…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

This is marvellous non-violent venting of the Spleen on both sides. For you Indians agonising over the “Kashmiri violence”, allegedly egged on by ISI minions, the last half-century, the problem lies with your “pacifist” PM and the Nehru dynasty. They hail from Kashmir and accordingly blinded to the obvious solution the Chinese have so effectively used in Mongolia and Tibet. The solution is to allow the teeming overcrowded population in states like Uttar Pradesh to “migrate” to Kashmir, both muslims and hindus alike, changing the “balance of people-power” forever in Kashmir. Let Ambani spend his billions in developing Kashmir for all to enjoy, regardless of religion.

Posted by Bludde | Report as abusive
 

Two points to be noted:

1. See how even Indian commenters here are ready to accept that the Indian government has not done the right thing by the Kashmiri people? That is a ray of hope for Kashmiris. It shows there is a sympathetic ear in India itself, and Kashmiris should seek to harness the very real democratic process in India to get their grievances redressed. They just need to go about it the right way.

2. See how international opinion has swung in India’s favour? Nobody wants to offend the emerging economy (not even the UN), and Pakistan has lost credibility in the rest of the world thanks to its association with terror. As an Indian, I may be expected to be gleeful at this, but I fear this could sow the seeds of Indian hubris, which could come back to haunt the country. India needs to use the breathing space to make up for lost time and start delivering.

I think the lessons for Kashmiris are that violent protests will not work, the world is not interested in offending India and Pakistan is a spent force that cannot be relied on for support any more. The paltry amount of money people internationally have been willing to donate after the Pakistan floods shows how unpopular that country has become.

Protest peacefully by all means, and remember that pelting stones does not constitute a peaceful protest! The solution has to come from the democratic process. Independence, however attractive, will not be viable for a small, landlocked state. Merging with Pakistan is probably a worse prospect than staying in India, given Pakistan’s worsening internal situation. Flawed as it is, the Indian state is probably the only vehicle for Kashmiris to attain the autonomy and economic freedom they aspire to.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

“I will soon frame the photograph of the Indian army chief signing his surrender papers to a Pakistani general”
Posted by Mohammad_Anjum

You can definitely frame that picture but you’ll have to do it with your eyes closed, in your dreams. In the mean while, here’s a picture you can frame with open eyes:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CIwpv9vxmBI/SU onWorggrI/AAAAAAAAAMc/DzILJwrgeck/s400/1 971_surrender.jpg

Posted by Black_Sabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@BlackSabbath, Bludde,

Anjum says:
“I will soon frame the photograph of the Indian army chief signing his surrender papers to a Pakistani general”

–>Depth of mental illness in Pakistan is so pervasive and so close to the surface that even average guys like Anjum utter such nonsense.

Sometimes I just think that India should have just finished off Pakistan by completely destroying their army in 1971, they should have completely defanged Pakistan and dismembered it completely, but the wimpy Indians of the time felt sorry for Pakistani’s and let them go and returned their POW’s. Perhaps Pakistan’s region would not be the virus that it has become.

Had the Chinese had a neighbour like Pakistan, the Chinese would have decimated and destroyed Pakistan.

It is only India that continues to use smooth, warm fuzzy cotton gloves lined with silk to handle Pakistan because I think the Indian psyche is at the end of the day pacifist and does not believe in genocides like Pakistan does.

Dum*ba*ass i*d*iots like Anjum hurl verbal diah*rea casually and this underscores the actual depth of Pakistani despair, humiliation and need for revenge at India at any cost.

If Pakistani’s don’t want peace, let them disintegrate, implode and financially collapse so the IMF won’t even give them beggar food or even scraps to eat.

All India has to do, is stay the course, leave Bakistan alone, keep their mouths shut, prosper, prosper, prosper and continually upgrade it military and have the best military defense shield on earth.

Let those individuals stoke, drown and burn in their own jealousy and vomit, Indians are blowing past Pakistan in every field at an alarming rate.

If financial collapse does not get Pakistan, terrorism, poor governance, drought and starvation WILL, as Pakistan will continue to be mismanaged.

Indians will continue to enjoy world class prestige and friendships from all civilized nations while Pakistan continues to fall into a hole, barely able to hold onto a functioning society and remaining stagnant and static in every manner. I am sure they will continue to pirate Indian movies and songs.

Indians got the money to buy the best military planes and best equipment and have an army and country vastly superior to outclass Pakistan in every way.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

G-W:
“Indians got the money to buy the best military planes and best equipment and have an army and country vastly superior to outclass Pakistan in every way.”

-With all due respect G-W, don’t be a fool, what use of all latest jets when sizeable population lives in slums and absolute poverty. The poverty levels in India and political corruption is still appaling. Countries who have made progress have to deal and overcome these issues, reality is India is not out of the woods yets. One decade of good economic growth means nothing, you have a long way to go before you can fulfill those dreams. In the process don’t worry about Pakistan, as we have shown in past three years, we can overcome huge challenges.
And remember Pakistan still enjoys the status of Major Non NATO US ally, strategic talks are underway with both US and EU.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@ They could not last beyond ten years. Now there is only Kashmir left to be freed. I will soon frame the photograph of the Indian army chief signing his surrender papers to a Pakistani general. You can be an independent nation. So long as you are free, that is all matters to us. Inshallah! It will happen.
Posted by Mohammad_Anjum

—Khudda ke bande! Allah ke naam pe jhoot mat maro!

Charity begins at home. Get kashmiris the right to self-determine in so-called “Azad kashmir” and that will be a big deal. Do you know that Kashmiri nationalists who seek an independent Kashmir are banned from participation in politics of Azad kashmir. they are forced to follow “Kashmir banega Pakistan” slogan—this is a formal exercise and not a pass time slogan on the street. so do this smaller project, and to take care of your ego, we do not want a portrait of Kayani/Pasha/Zardari signing that.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@G-W
The all-rosy picture that G-W is unsuccessfully trying to plaster upon reality to hide the truth behind is not serving the purpose.
- The veneer of Indian progress is not going to last. India is an unnatural state and will soon disintegrate.
- Pakistan, since its very birth, has surmounted impossible odds and has always come out winning.
- 1971 was indeed a victory for Hindus but a single event of glory in a thousand years of servitude at the hands of Muslims – Is it enough?
- 1962 Pakistan could have taken advantage of the crestfallen Indian Army to do it in but the Honorable Field Marshal Ayub Khan spared India in the hope that this will be appreciated.
- 1965 Pakistan matched Indian tit-for-tat and Indian reveries of eating at Gymkhana Lahore were shattered. Shastri died of relief having secured a ceasefire.
- 1948 Pakistan, at the very onset, tore away half of Kashmir from India.
- Kashmir – Pakistan stands vindicated that Kashmiris don’t want to stay with India. We don’t want to forcefully keep them with us either if they don’t want.
- Terrorism – Pakistan disintegrated USSR using Jihad. Pakistan has rooted out terrorism against itself in the most part – Compare this with India unable to put out Maoist insurgency that has defied such a large cowardly Army for decades now..
- Failures in Pak Politics – Politician are equally corrupt in both the nations. Pakistan had some bad moments during its brief life. Doesn’t mean will not surge back.
- Poverty in India – More than half live below poverty line.
- Pakistan facing floods – Bravely and without any help and It’s good. It will teach them a lesson at self-sufficiency.
- US+India using all their might in Afghanistan, yet failing!!! Why? ISI!!!
- NUKES – Pakistan created them? How? Isn’t it impossible for such a “Loser” to achieve this target? If they did that, can they not do anything bigger?
- Nuclear Safety – No nuclear accident as yet in Pakistan but dozens of leakages and accidents in India.

India will have to learn that Muslims in the subcontinent are a formidable, martial, proud people and have to be dealt with respect and honesty.

Posted by zeteticinksa | Report as abusive
 

Had the Chinese had a neighbour like Pakistan

— It’s a good thing Pakistan and China are not neighbors! :>

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Flawed as it is, the Indian state is probably the only vehicle for Kashmiris to attain the autonomy and economic freedom they aspire to.

– your assumption is flawed. kashmirs don’t want autonomy, they want freedom in the form of independence.

Posted by mirusmtupsha | Report as abusive
 

Black_Sabbath3:

There is no point in rubbing Mohammad Anjum’s face in it by referring to the 1971 surrender photograph. We can see that the image has been seared into his consciousness, which is why he made that statement. I don’t believe he is the only Pakistani who feels that way either.

I find myself marvelling and shaking my head on seeing such a naked expression of desire for vengeance. India underwent a similar military humiliation at the hands of China in 1962. Most Indians do see that as a humiliation even though it happened before most of them were born.

However, the difference in the Indian and Pakistani attitudes towards military humiliation is instructive. Indians predominantly have only two feelings about the Chinese:

1. We need to learn from the 1962 experience to be militarily strong so China cannot grab Arunachal Pradesh.

2. China has made fantastic economic progress. We should try and match that.

And perhaps a third feeling in those who have thought about it deeper:

3. We need to have deep economic and trade ties with China so that China has more to lose than to gain by attacking India in the future.

I have not heard Indians say they want to see their army defeat the Chinese on the border and humiliate them. Not do they say they want to liberate Tibet in retaliation for the loss of Aksai Chin.

Why have Pakistanis chosen to react in such a negative way?

G-W is probably right in that India should leave Pakistan alone and concentrate on its own progress. The danger is that having such hatred simmering in the hearts of so many people right next door cannot be good for our health. We need to address that, and I’m not sure how it can be done.

The nightmare scenario is if some people there feel they cannot bear to see India continuing to progress while their own country is sliding backwards, and decide that a nuclear holocaust that destroys both countries is a preferable option. We can’t rule out that possibility. Pakistani ill-feeling is therefore India’s problem. I am not suggesting that appeasement is the answer. But we need to be creative in tackling this problem, because it is our problem.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

mirusmtupsha said:

> – your assumption is flawed. kashmirs don’t want autonomy, they want freedom in the form of independence.

I would be interested in hearing your response to the whole of my post and all the points I made in it, rather than the one statement that you disagree with.

I developed an argument and led up to that conclusion. I would like to hear a critique of that reasoning.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh Prasad,

As I said earlier, I think India is always willing to share with Pakistan, as long as Pakistani’s unclench their fists and open their hearts and minds and put the guns down and discuss the issues.

Pakistani’s are too proud and would rather die than accept help from India. Friendship with India would destroy the national Pakistani psyche and they would not know who to hate anymore. Friendship with India may actually create chaos in Pakistan and remove the tools needed for national unity.

It is such a pity that a nation remains so defiant towards Indians, even in the face of death. Perhaps, that is what they want and let God give what may or may not come, that is up to God.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

G-W,

It is probably just the Pakistani military that has a victory-or-death mentality, not ordinary people. But the military sets the tone for the whole country. While it is frustrating, it is also a source of hope because we only need to tackle the perceptions of a small group of people to effect more widespread change.

Remember that India’s one-time arch-enemy Musharraf came close to inking a peace deal that would have formalised the LoC as the international border. I think he saw the writing on the wall, that Pakistan could not sustain a hate campaign into the future given the growing disparities in economic clout and the change in world opinion in favour of India.

I think a similar mindset change needs to occur in Gen Kayani and his coterie. Once the military top brass decide to be less belligerent, the mood of the country will follow. So peace initiatives have to come from the hawks in order to be credible and sustainable.

As the Vulcans would say, “Only Nixon could go to China.” ;-)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Here’s a brutally frank write-up on Kashmir in the UK’s Guardian that should give us (liberal, educated Indians) pause. The author is not a Kashmiri Muslim. Nor is he a biased Pakistani or ignorant Westerner, as our convenient stereotypes go. From his name (Pankaj Mishra), he is Hindu and of Indian origin.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/20 10/aug/14/silence-over-kashmir-conflict

I suffer great moral pangs on the issue of Kashmir, and articles like this only reinforce them. My only quibble with this otherwise powerful article is its complete silence on the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus (the Pundits). The author should have followed his own advice and dealt with that additional “messy reality concealed by stirring abstractions”, as he put it. But that omission should not cause us to sweep the larger issue under the carpet.

As Indians, we all know we have a certain wariness towards men in uniform (the police more than the army, which is generally invisible in daily life). How many of us would enter a police station with a jaunty step? One of the luxuries of being part of the middle or upper classes is our relative ability to lead our lives without ever coming into contact with the police. But we have all read stories in the Indian press of “death in police custody” and “encounter killings”. There is probably more than a grain of truth to what is being said about the behaviour of our men in uniform in Kashmir. False notions of patriotism should not prevent us from speaking up about it. We are humans first and Indians second. We shouldn’t go on the defensive and refuse to look seriously at the issue just because Pakistanis are raising the Kashmir issue for their country’s own opportunistic reasons.

It would be good if Indians themselves could bring pressure on the Indian government to dramatically improve the situation in Kashmir. Even if we believe that a plebiscite or independence for part of the region (the Kashmir Valley) is a bridge too far, we can at least insist on greater press access and more honest reporting on Kashmir. That may shame the authorities into providing a lighter touch and better administration.

It’s the least we can do.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,

One thing that I take from the Guardian article, is that in his narative of the 2 decade-long agitation in Kashmir, the authour has not mentioned the role played by Pakistan & it’s proxy armies, even once. If I hadn’t checked his name, I would’ve bet my house that he’s a Pakistani. Having said that, the fact that he’s a hindu of Indian descent, does not give him automatic credibility on the issue, in my book.

There’s no doubt that civil rights violations have taken place in kashmir & that the Indian Govt needs to closely moniter the activities of the army there & provide speedy justice to the bereeved. I agree with you that we, as Indians need to do more & put pressure on the Indian Govt to improve the law & order situation in Kashmir & do more for the betterment of the kashmiris. I’ll be the first one to sign off on any letter/petition to the Indian Govt, demanding the above.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh, you said:

“Remember that India’s one-time arch-enemy Musharraf came close to inking a peace deal that would have formalised the LoC as the international border.”

–>Ganesh, you know, it would not be a good idea actually for the sake of the Kashmiri’s to make the LOC the defacto border without addressing the Kashmiri situation fully.

By that I mean, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir must be discussed fully, its implications, the legality of Pakistani’s being on Kashmiri soil. It is unfair to focus entirely on India to work on the Kashmiri grievances, there must be an organized and sustained focus on pakistan occupied Kashmir, if there is to be a comprehensive agreement on Kashmir.

Pakistani’s have occupied Kashmir and claimed it as their own territory without any regard for the Kashmiri’s on the Pakistani side and Pakistan is hijacking the Indian Kashmiri cause to make another landgrab on the Indian Kashmiri side….all in a gradual extensive effort to expand the Sunni Empire, through any means, even the small nation of Kashmir is being spared, they will swallow that up too to make it a part of Pakistan.

Pakistani’s care damn about kashmiri’s but are using that hollow ficitious sympathy as a trojan horse to further Sunni empire expansion.

That is why everybody has a duty to question the legitimacy of Pakistan occupied Kashmir, with regards to the right of Self determination of Kashmiri’s.

Purely focusing on India with regards to Kashmir, is actually killing the Kashmiri cause, the focus has to be of an all encompassing nature and comprehensive to include all of the land violations and 1948 UN Kashmir resolutions that Pakistan continually evades.

The legitimacy and legality of the Pakistani occupation of Kashmir must be openly questioned, the same way the Indian side is being constantly questioned.

If India is to vacate Kashmir, so must Pakistan fully and wholeheartedly, to do anything else is a complete and utter waste of time and unfair to India and mostly Kashmiri’s themselves.

The biggest humour about Kashmir is Pakistani’s yearing for Kashmiri freedom, then why don’t Pakistani’s, Punjabi settlers, the Pak Army, proxy terrorist camps, jihadi’s….all of them, why don’t they just get the fxck out of Kashmir as well? Why is India the only bad guy here?

Why the fxck do Pakistani’s have double standard here?

Pot calling the kettle black.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

The best thing for both Kashmir and India is to restructure the security forces there. Push the Army and all the assorted security forces out to the border areas and then create a completely indigenous security force for Kashmir.

Under that situation the dynamics will change considerably. When its mostly Kashmiris dying at the hands of Kashmiris, their tolerance for violence will decrease dramatically.

A rough copy of this game plan worked quite well for the Americans in Iraq. The militias they created took on the Sunni insurgents. And as soon as it became Iraqis killing Iraqis, violence rates started tumbling. Communities stopped harbouring terrorists. Indigenous and local security forces knew the terrain better and were better able to target violent extremists. And with self-preservation a concern, the local forces went after the insurgents with far more zeal than the Americans would have. It also improved the human rights issue. By the local forces knowing everybody in their areas, they were less likely to commit mistakes and target the wrong people by accident.

This is a blueprint that would serve India well. Offer the Kashmiris a chance to have an independent constabulary/gendarmarie entirely responsible for the security of the state. Heck, let them draft young Kashmiris into that force if they must. But there shouldn’t be anybody but Kashmiri residents in that force.

Then push the Army, CRPF, BSF, etc. out to the borders and put them on overdrive to cut off infiltrations. The plus side for India in this, is that troop density along border areas dramatically increases under this plan. If Pakistan wishes to then maintain its current rate of infiltrations, the amount of resources it would have to expend would be massive. This now becomes a mini-version of the Cold War strategy the Americans used against the Soviets. If the price of Pakistan’s “thousand cuts” strategy were to increase exponentially, how long would they be able to sustain it?

As it stands, using heavily armed infantry in Kashmir, is like using a hammer to swat a house fly. And all it amounts to is treating the symptom not the disease. India can’t eliminate training camps in Pakistan (not without sparking a potentially nuclear war). But it can most certainly keep the border as tight as possible and make it incredibly expensive for Pakistan to keep its current course. Just like the US-Soviet contest, India could potentially make it so expensive that Pakistan would have to choose between putting in so many resources to keep up the competition that it could end up disintegrating on its own, or to give up the contest and come to a sound long term solution that works for both sides.

All this, of course, rests on India being able to trust the Kashmiris with being able to police and secure themselves without any additional assistance from the centre (other than picking up the cheque). A little trust here could go a long, long way for India.

I have seen some writings from lower ranking Indian Army officers advocating such a strategy (the Captains, Majors and Colonels actually fighting in Kashmir). But there’s seem to be no evidence that such thinking has caught on at the top. The national security institutions in India, need to heed the advice of their officers on the ground, who understand the situation quite well and know what it takes to solve it.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Great comment Keithz!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

India has over a period of time developed a standarized response to insurgency well described by Shekhar Gupta in Indian express. Let me summarize as below:

Step 1) Throw full military might at rebels with exception of leaders of the rebel movement who are treated with kid gloves.

Step 2) continue with full military pressure till rebels realize that violence will just result in more pain no gain.

Step 3) At that point sit down and negotiate with plenty of generous concessions. Integrate rebels into polictial mainstream and democratic process. Praful Mahanta of Assam, Akali party from Punjab, et al were erstwhile rebels now full integrated.

In Kashmir, we are at Step 2. So lets wait and watch.

Several people especially Indians often assume that India is a weak and soft state given our tradition of giving generous concessions. But we are neither. We are like the bamboo that bends with the wind and survives the storm rather than the upright oak that falls down in a storm.

Our strength comes from two factors:
1) We have the advantage of large numbers – 0.5 million feet on ground in Kashmir and if we need more, we can deploy more. :)
2) Our ability to handle body bags without political fallout. No one has lost an election over death of soldiers in kashmir/Punjab/NE etc.

So holding on to status quo as long as possible works in our advantage. Patience and Fortitude.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

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