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	<title>Comments on: We are all Madoff investors</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/</link>
	<description>Just another blogs.reuters.com weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Peter H</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4821</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4821</guid>
		<description>Thanks for another great insight, I hope there isn't too much more fodder in the system for more... but alas, I expect to read more such articles for the next year, or two, or three...
What I can't figure out is why are the politicians (I am in the UK, having recently returned from Australia) spending so much effort defending and supporting such an obviously rotten system? Why spend all those public taxes on private companies? The only companies I would support been taken over (and run) by the governments (or newly commissioned tax payer [private + corporate] funded organisation) are the Ratings Agencies who have surely been at the front of the canoe that has lead us all up a smelly creek... and then dropped the paddle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for another great insight, I hope there isn&#8217;t too much more fodder in the system for more&#8230; but alas, I expect to read more such articles for the next year, or two, or three&#8230;<br />
What I can&#8217;t figure out is why are the politicians (I am in the UK, having recently returned from Australia) spending so much effort defending and supporting such an obviously rotten system? Why spend all those public taxes on private companies? The only companies I would support been taken over (and run) by the governments (or newly commissioned tax payer [private + corporate] funded organisation) are the Ratings Agencies who have surely been at the front of the canoe that has lead us all up a smelly creek&#8230; and then dropped the paddle.</p>
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		<title>By: Father Ignatius Brown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4713</link>
		<dc:creator>Father Ignatius Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4713</guid>
		<description>Despite the fact that there are plenty of individual exceptions, I don't think we should be too hard on James for employing the journalistic "we are all to blame" line to illustrate a more fundamental point (as made by Tim Lee) about the mis-pricing of assets.

Near where I live (Norwich, Norfolk, UK) there is a pleasant village with a pretty decent collection of new homes (the site has been developed over the last 7 years).  About 4 years ago, while in the process of selling my London terraced house for a silly sum and moving to the country, I got details on the houses being developed.  One in particular caught my eye - it was pastiche vernacular (which, for my sins, I love) and was way out of my league at £480,000.  I liked it so much I kept the details (for day-dreaming).  

That same house is now on the market for £320,000 (before the buyer starts negotiating) a fall of some 35% (which might indicate how far behind the curve the official figures really are).  However , and here's the kicker,using an online calculator I have tentatively worked out that if you bought it as a buy-to-let investor you would still be losing money because the going rent on similar properties would not cover the mortgage with a 10% deposit (even if house prices were rising by 3% a year).

Which might indicate that prices have even further to fall.  In fact, a friend who has been a successful buy-to-let investor told me that she could only make it break even at about £240,000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the fact that there are plenty of individual exceptions, I don&#8217;t think we should be too hard on James for employing the journalistic &#8220;we are all to blame&#8221; line to illustrate a more fundamental point (as made by Tim Lee) about the mis-pricing of assets.</p>
<p>Near where I live (Norwich, Norfolk, UK) there is a pleasant village with a pretty decent collection of new homes (the site has been developed over the last 7 years).  About 4 years ago, while in the process of selling my London terraced house for a silly sum and moving to the country, I got details on the houses being developed.  One in particular caught my eye - it was pastiche vernacular (which, for my sins, I love) and was way out of my league at £480,000.  I liked it so much I kept the details (for day-dreaming).  </p>
<p>That same house is now on the market for £320,000 (before the buyer starts negotiating) a fall of some 35% (which might indicate how far behind the curve the official figures really are).  However , and here&#8217;s the kicker,using an online calculator I have tentatively worked out that if you bought it as a buy-to-let investor you would still be losing money because the going rent on similar properties would not cover the mortgage with a 10% deposit (even if house prices were rising by 3% a year).</p>
<p>Which might indicate that prices have even further to fall.  In fact, a friend who has been a successful buy-to-let investor told me that she could only make it break even at about £240,000.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Wagner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4689</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4689</guid>
		<description>To any sober and sane investor it has been obvious for well over 10 years that something was very wrong about our US economic system and our economy. McMansions sprouting up everywhere. Real Estate values inflating in some years well into double digits. To me it all seemed absoultely crazy and unsustainable. The #1 red flag was home values becoming so high that only Rich foreigners, Doctors, Dentists and Lawyers and of course wall streeters could ever afford to buy those homes. I said to myself, how on earth can a young family just starting out ever think about achieving the American Dream. I calculated that in a typical household the Husband and Wife would be forced to work at least 1 full time job each and of course do some part time work to supplement their incomes in order to afford the Mortgage and all the other bills that come in the mail. I asked myself "how long can such a family endure all of this work"? without divorcing, burning out etc. It is painfully clear today, we are a nation of people who live way beyond our means, just in order to "Keep Up With The Joneses". I am originally from New York City, which gentrifieid beyond imagination and has become one of the most unaffordable, places on earth to live. I figured out as I reached retirement age that I must get out. I did and moved to the mid-west where I bought a gret Levittown type home for $114,000. I pay $2,000 a year in taxes.  The same house on Long Island is $500,000+ at the very least plus $8,000 a year in taxes. We have done this to ourselves, and if we are not careful we most certainly will be doomed to re-live it over and over.
May God Have Mercy on all of us, everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To any sober and sane investor it has been obvious for well over 10 years that something was very wrong about our US economic system and our economy. McMansions sprouting up everywhere. Real Estate values inflating in some years well into double digits. To me it all seemed absoultely crazy and unsustainable. The #1 red flag was home values becoming so high that only Rich foreigners, Doctors, Dentists and Lawyers and of course wall streeters could ever afford to buy those homes. I said to myself, how on earth can a young family just starting out ever think about achieving the American Dream. I calculated that in a typical household the Husband and Wife would be forced to work at least 1 full time job each and of course do some part time work to supplement their incomes in order to afford the Mortgage and all the other bills that come in the mail. I asked myself &#8220;how long can such a family endure all of this work&#8221;? without divorcing, burning out etc. It is painfully clear today, we are a nation of people who live way beyond our means, just in order to &#8220;Keep Up With The Joneses&#8221;. I am originally from New York City, which gentrifieid beyond imagination and has become one of the most unaffordable, places on earth to live. I figured out as I reached retirement age that I must get out. I did and moved to the mid-west where I bought a gret Levittown type home for $114,000. I pay $2,000 a year in taxes.  The same house on Long Island is $500,000+ at the very least plus $8,000 a year in taxes. We have done this to ourselves, and if we are not careful we most certainly will be doomed to re-live it over and over.<br />
May God Have Mercy on all of us, everywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: TomK</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4682</link>
		<dc:creator>TomK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4682</guid>
		<description>AustrianSchool:

The desperate nature of your tone makes my day. Thanks. 

Let let me clarify. The point of my post is not what economic system fail, but will lessons be learned. I pointed out other countries have learned their lessons and have benefited. The US is nowhere near learning anything yet. But we shall see in 2009. 

Oh yes I am a capitalist! But of course there are many forms of capitalism - each nation adjust things to fit their needs. The US adjusted things to fit its needs too - which is now universally recognized as laissez fair casino racketeering for the elites and screw the rest. To correct the USA's profoundly and systematically corrupted 'capitalism' (which suddenly turned into neo-stateism to save the skins of the elites in power) is impossible without a generational national upheaval. It is like: How do you fix a guy like Madoff and turn him into a Warran Buffett, multiplied by a 100 million times? Isn't that the essence James Saft column?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AustrianSchool:</p>
<p>The desperate nature of your tone makes my day. Thanks. </p>
<p>Let let me clarify. The point of my post is not what economic system fail, but will lessons be learned. I pointed out other countries have learned their lessons and have benefited. The US is nowhere near learning anything yet. But we shall see in 2009. </p>
<p>Oh yes I am a capitalist! But of course there are many forms of capitalism - each nation adjust things to fit their needs. The US adjusted things to fit its needs too - which is now universally recognized as laissez fair casino racketeering for the elites and screw the rest. To correct the USA&#8217;s profoundly and systematically corrupted &#8216;capitalism&#8217; (which suddenly turned into neo-stateism to save the skins of the elites in power) is impossible without a generational national upheaval. It is like: How do you fix a guy like Madoff and turn him into a Warran Buffett, multiplied by a 100 million times? Isn&#8217;t that the essence James Saft column?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sherman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4671</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Sherman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4671</guid>
		<description>How do you make a living smirking at what everyone does, critical of mistakes after the fact and not taking a position on how to fix problems?  Where is the value added?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you make a living smirking at what everyone does, critical of mistakes after the fact and not taking a position on how to fix problems?  Where is the value added?</p>
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		<title>By: Hans</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4667</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4667</guid>
		<description>I agree with Bob. I make 45K annually and I am debt free. Never had any. Why?... because I always live within my limits and I live quite well thank you very much. Bought some gold and silver stocks though. I also have a small emergency fund in euros deposited overseas... just in case. I feel uneasy about the state of the dollar. Who knows what'll happen at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Bob. I make 45K annually and I am debt free. Never had any. Why?&#8230; because I always live within my limits and I live quite well thank you very much. Bought some gold and silver stocks though. I also have a small emergency fund in euros deposited overseas&#8230; just in case. I feel uneasy about the state of the dollar. Who knows what&#8217;ll happen at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4666</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4666</guid>
		<description>At least regular people can take some comfort in the fact that after 8 years of Bush grabbing all he could to make many of the already wealthy filthy rich, that at least some wealthy folks now have an idea of what it feels like to suffer due to lack of money. Too bad for them, but now they know how many of the lower and middle classes feel for much of their lives. And, none of it is right and should never happen in a right society.

"How does it feel?" (Thank you, Bob Dylan.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least regular people can take some comfort in the fact that after 8 years of Bush grabbing all he could to make many of the already wealthy filthy rich, that at least some wealthy folks now have an idea of what it feels like to suffer due to lack of money. Too bad for them, but now they know how many of the lower and middle classes feel for much of their lives. And, none of it is right and should never happen in a right society.</p>
<p>&#8220;How does it feel?&#8221; (Thank you, Bob Dylan.)</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Denninger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4659</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Denninger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4659</guid>
		<description>The simple word for this is "exponents."

You know, that nasty mathematical concept called "The Power Function"?

The most important mathematical concept in the universe - bar none.

To put this in perspective, 12% a year return means that in 30 years (a reasonable investment horizon) you would have THIRTY TIMES your original investment.

It is this sort of utter nonsense that led to the Internet bubble, the Housing bubble, and now we're going to do the Treasury bubble!

I wrote about this in my blog (the web site above) this morning and in fact posted several articles on it over the weekend.  

THERE IS NO UNICORN THAT EJECTS SKITTLES FROM THE "BUSINESS END."

If you want to know how bad the exponential function gets, simply figure out how many people you end up with if you start with 1 million in a city and a 4% growth rate over 100 years.

Answer: FIFTY MILLION.  Will they fit?

The author is correct in that "we're all Madoff", but then again, so is our government and so are our markets.

The ONLY way to clear the market is to force the insoluble debt into the open and DEFAULT IT.  Everyone is trying to find a way to avoid this, but mathematics say that it CAN'T be avoided.

We tried in 2000-03 and all we did was make the inevitable crash three times as bad.  Now we're facing it again and EVERYONE wants to put it off AGAIN.

Folks, either we do it this time or, if we keep this up, we will risk destroying not just a lot of jobs and having a depression, but destroying our political system as well.

Let's not go there, ok?  I like my nation and will suffer an INEVITABLE Depression (even if three times as bad as it would have been if we had accepted it in 2000) to avoid political and economic collapse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The simple word for this is &#8220;exponents.&#8221;</p>
<p>You know, that nasty mathematical concept called &#8220;The Power Function&#8221;?</p>
<p>The most important mathematical concept in the universe - bar none.</p>
<p>To put this in perspective, 12% a year return means that in 30 years (a reasonable investment horizon) you would have THIRTY TIMES your original investment.</p>
<p>It is this sort of utter nonsense that led to the Internet bubble, the Housing bubble, and now we&#8217;re going to do the Treasury bubble!</p>
<p>I wrote about this in my blog (the web site above) this morning and in fact posted several articles on it over the weekend.  </p>
<p>THERE IS NO UNICORN THAT EJECTS SKITTLES FROM THE &#8220;BUSINESS END.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you want to know how bad the exponential function gets, simply figure out how many people you end up with if you start with 1 million in a city and a 4% growth rate over 100 years.</p>
<p>Answer: FIFTY MILLION.  Will they fit?</p>
<p>The author is correct in that &#8220;we&#8217;re all Madoff&#8221;, but then again, so is our government and so are our markets.</p>
<p>The ONLY way to clear the market is to force the insoluble debt into the open and DEFAULT IT.  Everyone is trying to find a way to avoid this, but mathematics say that it CAN&#8217;T be avoided.</p>
<p>We tried in 2000-03 and all we did was make the inevitable crash three times as bad.  Now we&#8217;re facing it again and EVERYONE wants to put it off AGAIN.</p>
<p>Folks, either we do it this time or, if we keep this up, we will risk destroying not just a lot of jobs and having a depression, but destroying our political system as well.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not go there, ok?  I like my nation and will suffer an INEVITABLE Depression (even if three times as bad as it would have been if we had accepted it in 2000) to avoid political and economic collapse.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Foulkrod</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4640</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Foulkrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4640</guid>
		<description>Bravo! I've been called everything from unpatriotic to socialist to everything but mister for over 7 ten years for voicing the obvious: starting with the dot com debacle the Dutch reminded us had all the markings of the tulip fiasco in their country centuries earlier, moving on to allwing even people o welfare to borrow for both mortgages and credit cards knowing it couldn't be repaid, to the common American who just refuses to see there's no difference between a person running out the door of a shop with a new tv or pretending to pay with credit he can't repay.

we've all been not only wanting, but demanding the right to live like nobility based on income we don't have, borrowing money we can't repay, and deluding ourselves from the fact that a share of stock is only worth what you eventually sell it for.

Now, like spoiled children who've been told our tummy aches are our own fault, we want to scream at anything sounding like an adult voice, even when the adult voice is saying, "the boat's sinking, shut up and help bail!"

Banks have traded bad credit card back and forth to pretend profitability for decades hoping the house of cards would never collapse, and we have an economy running wild and driven by college kids who see no harm in driving up the cost of many things under the weight of consumer demand, knowing they have no money...just plastic.

We've had years of the "bigger idiot theory", with everybody hoping a bigger idiot would buy what we bought as a stupid price for a idiotic one.

Corporations got too caught up in making sure to report profit at any price to their future, politicians have juiced statistics and manipulated reality, while American workers can't compete with somebody making $5 a day.

And American workers who blame everybody but themselves gladly spent the 60s, 70s and 80s refusing to pay for American made products with no regard to lost jobs (until the domino finally fell  on their own head).

We have a consumer economy with no consumers, and until we recreate working wages, coupled with corporate AND personal fiscal responsibility, deflation, monitization and public works projects may save the country and government, but we will  avoid becoming a second rate nation state by sliding directly into the gutter.

China can't keep loaning us money to buy their unsafe, cheaply made products forever. Even they will eventually demand cash. And not American Dollars, cash that has value and the ink is dry when it hits their hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo! I&#8217;ve been called everything from unpatriotic to socialist to everything but mister for over 7 ten years for voicing the obvious: starting with the dot com debacle the Dutch reminded us had all the markings of the tulip fiasco in their country centuries earlier, moving on to allwing even people o welfare to borrow for both mortgages and credit cards knowing it couldn&#8217;t be repaid, to the common American who just refuses to see there&#8217;s no difference between a person running out the door of a shop with a new tv or pretending to pay with credit he can&#8217;t repay.</p>
<p>we&#8217;ve all been not only wanting, but demanding the right to live like nobility based on income we don&#8217;t have, borrowing money we can&#8217;t repay, and deluding ourselves from the fact that a share of stock is only worth what you eventually sell it for.</p>
<p>Now, like spoiled children who&#8217;ve been told our tummy aches are our own fault, we want to scream at anything sounding like an adult voice, even when the adult voice is saying, &#8220;the boat&#8217;s sinking, shut up and help bail!&#8221;</p>
<p>Banks have traded bad credit card back and forth to pretend profitability for decades hoping the house of cards would never collapse, and we have an economy running wild and driven by college kids who see no harm in driving up the cost of many things under the weight of consumer demand, knowing they have no money&#8230;just plastic.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve had years of the &#8220;bigger idiot theory&#8221;, with everybody hoping a bigger idiot would buy what we bought as a stupid price for a idiotic one.</p>
<p>Corporations got too caught up in making sure to report profit at any price to their future, politicians have juiced statistics and manipulated reality, while American workers can&#8217;t compete with somebody making $5 a day.</p>
<p>And American workers who blame everybody but themselves gladly spent the 60s, 70s and 80s refusing to pay for American made products with no regard to lost jobs (until the domino finally fell  on their own head).</p>
<p>We have a consumer economy with no consumers, and until we recreate working wages, coupled with corporate AND personal fiscal responsibility, deflation, monitization and public works projects may save the country and government, but we will  avoid becoming a second rate nation state by sliding directly into the gutter.</p>
<p>China can&#8217;t keep loaning us money to buy their unsafe, cheaply made products forever. Even they will eventually demand cash. And not American Dollars, cash that has value and the ink is dry when it hits their hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Al Baloushi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/01/02/we-are-all-madoff-investors/#comment-4636</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Baloushi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=1091#comment-4636</guid>
		<description>It is all game and is being played by the high ups who run the governments, how a person like him can go without detection for such long time and more worstly in the USA? A nation claiming is champion of all trades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is all game and is being played by the high ups who run the governments, how a person like him can go without detection for such long time and more worstly in the USA? A nation claiming is champion of all trades.</p>
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