Auto plant wars sparked decline of industry

May 25, 2009

dewar-headshot-150x150– Robert J. Dewar is a former Ford Motor Company general foreman and author of A Savage Factory: An Eyewitness Account of the Auto Industry’s Self-Destruction. He currently lives in Cincinnati, OH and runs a successful packaging business with his wife and family. The views expressed are his own. –

The war in the auto plants never ended. It flared up and died down, but it never ceased. Management and labor circle each other like sumo wrestlers searching for an opening. Like any war, it ignores honesty, human dignity and common sense. Like any conflict, it leaves collateral damage.

As a supervisor at Ford Motor Company’s largest transmission plant, I fought on the front lines. Despite leaving the auto company many years ago, the factory skirmishes were a key factor in the industry’s disastrous decline in the 1980s, and likely continue to play a part in the failures of the industry today.

The factory foremen had one big gun: Form 4600. It was the stepwise disciplinary tool that could take an employee up the punitive ladder to termination. Many supervisors rose in the management ranks not because of job performance, but by virtue of their 4600 tally. The auto industry rewarded tyrants rather than qualified managers with integrity and an ability to successfully lead.

The UAW arsenal easily outgunned management. Production was sabotaged. Critical employees were absent when high production was most needed. Tools mysteriously disappeared. Bad quality was run purposely. The weakest, least desirable employees were protected with the full power of the labor contract. When management and the UAW stood eyeball to eyeball, management always backed down – they had too – productivity and profitability hung in the balance.

The Ford factory was operated by two warring gangs. Clearly, this business model is doomed for failure.

The spark that ignites the factory battles is ever changing, but the underlying philosophy “us against them” remains the same. Foremen lead by oppression, intentionally making the work environment as uncomfortable as possible for the hourly employees. They justify these conditions with high salary. The UAW fights back the only way they can – production sabotage.

My time in the trenches still haunts me. One particular occasion I was assigned the task of scrutinizing a single employee’s every move for an entire eight hour shift. My only assignment was to nail him with something, anything, by the end of the day. The orders were clear. At the end of the shift someone would lose their job – it would either be him or me. What good was a supervisor who could not nail one single employee after observing him for eight hours?

Like a voyeuristic watchdog I was expected to follow the man to the rest room, noting how long he took to relieve himself, hand count and record his hourly output, follow his every move…

One employee brought his snub nose .38 to work with the explicit intention of murdering me. Fortunately he was so drunk that he left the gun under the seat of his car, and fell into a drunken stupor at his work station. The UAW saved his job despite repeatedly showing up for work intoxicated.

There were the regular bathroom sweeps – teams of supervisors and security guards periodically raided restrooms to ensure nobody was resting. Anyone caught not standing at a urinal or sitting on a commode was slapped with a 4600 disciplinary form.

The Coffee Pot War during the midnight shift was particularly noteworthy. Management confiscated and held hostage the only coffee pot available to the hourly employees, reportedly because they were taking too many breaks. This ill-conceived plan was designed to punish the workers and increase productivity. Things quickly turned sour. Machines stopped running properly. Production dropped. A critical tool that was needed for all the machines went missing. Squads of supervisors and security guards raided lockers, searched cars in the parking lot, and overturned trash cans. Foremen and UAW committeemen screamed in each others faces. Production came to a standstill. The critical tool could not be found.

The Coffee Pot War raged for days. Bleary eyed supervisors, fighting fatigue, faced the possible shutdown of assembly plants in four states because they were running out of transmissions. The foreman of that department had a nervous breakdown, and was carried out of the plant by mental health workers. In desperation, management returned the coffee pot. Within a few hours the missing tool showed up as mysteriously as it had disappeared. Production returned to a normal level.

These never-ending battles on the factory floor ushered in the quality control nightmare of the 1970s that caused 33 states to pass “Lemon Laws” designed to protect American car buyers from the Big Three. The wars destroyed confidence and trust in American built cars, which marked the beginning of the end of the U.S. auto industry. It opened the door for smaller, weaker, less experienced foreign auto companies to come to our shores and beat us at our own game. The wars drove the final nail in the coffin of Detroit.

140 comments

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What a blatantly stilted piece in favor of the Auto Industry, trying to pass the blame for their bad management onto the workers.

“The auto industry rewarded tyrants rather than qualified managers with integrity and an ability to successfully lead.”

Love how this nugget of truth appeared first, then A LOT of words follow, all examples of how BAD the employees are.

I want to hear the stories about the “Tyrants who Lead”.
What people don’t really understand in this whole situation- The board of Directors and Major Shareholders have played “Management” against “Worker” while the real decision makers stay in the shadows where they belong.

What happened to the Golden days of the Auto Industry when everyone from the janitor to the CEO made money, Bonuses for Christmas for most everyone, very little problems between Labor and Capital, and everyone was buying cars from a well liked company.

Boardmembers decided not to stay competitive with foreign car makers. This decision was out of the hands of both “Workers” and small factory “Managers”. This article plays upon the differences between “Workers” and “Managers” trying to blame the “Workers” for bad decisions, bad business models, and plain greedy stupidity of the real decision makers, the “Owners”!

I wouldn’t put it past these “Owners” to purposely place “Tyrants” over the employees in factories, praying for trouble, so they could use it to slander the “Worker”. Any psychology major will tell you that if you put a “Tyrant” as a leader, those who follow the leader will revolt! It is human nature! And these greedy, slick, and sly college graduates know this, and use it to their advantage. All while raping the “Workers”, the people doing the work by cutting pensions, sending “American” car company jobs overseas as they keep their –

Golden Parachutes Much better health care
Millions in salary Slush Funds
Free Jet travel Tickets to ANY event free
Corporate Apartments Corporate Car
Corporate board meetings in exotic locales

But its all the “workers” fault, not the guys who push paper around, living in a culture of selfish greed, all while making some of the worst business decisions in the history of Automobiles. How American to pass the blame.

Walker, it is apparent you did not fully read the article, nor did you read the book. If you had done so, you would not have described it as a “blatantly stilted piece in favor of the Auto Industry”. In fact, you would have instead noted how it blames the destruction of the auto industry by the mismanagement of corporate heads, rather than by the employees.

What is portrayed is how the self-preserving management utilized policies that made the factory more like a war-zone between management and workers rather than a team working together to create a strong company and a quality product.

I am disgusted along with you over the lavish lifestyle provided by our tax dollars to the corporate heads who drove the companies into the ground, and so is the author I am sure. But these are side notes to the overall problem – years of poor management and an inability to change with the times.

The author notes the reaction by the workers, but if read thoroughly you would blatantly see that this is simply a result of the egotistical upper management who is unwilling to change in order to make a strong company and a strong product. A managment team that desires controlling workers rather than improving performance and quality. A managment team that is responsible for creating an environment of conflict rather than one of teamwork.

Perhaps you should try reading the book in order to truly understand what the auther is saying.

Posted by David | Report as abusive

Wow! What an unusual account to hear about how the Auto Industry really operated: foreman trying to hold the line on production to his managers while engaging the ingenuity of tactics used by UAW employees fighting for their own piece of power.

It is interesting to me how the culture of Ford took on the personality of Henry Ford\’s \”my way or the highway\” attitude, which generally works when there\’s only one way. But it appears that employees got creative to dig in to fight for their financial survival and apparently Dewar still shudders at how Ford expected him to treat his workers like less than human beings.

Posted by SmartAlexander | Report as abusive

David-

The “Management” in the article only talks about the “Factory Management”. If you understand business, every “factory” is a small cell of the Larger Corporation. The management in these factories are usually educated at smaller universities and not taught at the level of the Larger Corporation Executives who are taught a Yale, Harvard, Ect.

In my opinion those educated at Harvard should have a better grasp of all aspects of Management and Human Resources. When you look at people as a resource, it is easy to see that the American resource is much to expensive compared to “Resources” in other slave labor countries.
I can see the board of director sitting around a table.
“How can we make more money for us, and our stockholder?”
“Our overhead (cost of business) can be trimmed.”
“How?”
“Find cheaper labor.”
“Where? Overseas? that will make us (American Car company run by Americans) seem un-American.”
“Set up a situation in which we can make Labor Unions look bad so we can justify moving operation overseas.”
“Good idea! how can we do it?”
“We can lower productivity and quality by placing bad “managers” in the factories who have no people quality. Then we breath down their necks to improve everything across the board. They will try to get the workers to improve the only way the “Manager” knows how, they will try to bully them, which won’t work.”
“Brilliant! Then we can blame the Unions, move overseas where we don’t have to pay as much in taxes, insurance, social security, wages, ect. and the public will understand because of the Horrible Unions!”

You going to tell me these Harvard business school graduates didn’t learn examples of bad management styles in their expensive schools? They better get their money back.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

My father retired from GM after 30+ years of employment and was a founding member of his local union. I have a deceased brother who was close to retirement from GM and a brother still employed there. All I ever heard from any of them was how to do less work for more money. Management was the bad guy and the workers were always right. I never agreed with the thinking of my family, and have always thought that that behaviour resulted in a poor product…one that I swore that I would never purchase. I’m not surprised that the workers shot themselves in the foot. I’m only shocked that it didn’t happen much earlier.

Posted by John Moyer | Report as abusive

True that there were many problems between unions and mangement, but it was the management that destroyed the company. They got everything they pleased (cheap labor in developing countries, cheap resources). Bottom line American cars suck because the management wanted to make the world dependent on inefficent technology to boost profits. Everyone knows the Europeans and the Japanese make longer-lasting reliable cars, which is why so many Americans (who were frustrated after decades of failure) wished the auto industry to not receive bailouts. it’s the same with the computer industry, because its American dominated. I have an old MAc G3 that works perfectly but because of “innovation and progress” they made new internet connections incompatiable with old comps. They’re forcing us to waste resources and money for their gain.

Posted by Eldon Lopes | Report as abusive

Since I was able to afford my first car, I had never wanted an American car. The constant media attention on the wars between UAW and management did little to improve my impression of american car companies. My negative experience with American cars whenever I had to rent them from car rentals makes me even want to own them less.

This article and the news about how Chrysler is screwing their dealers, with GM contemplating making similar moves, definitely make me glad that I never wanted an American car. Perhaps I should reconsider my position though since American car production may now be outsourced.

Posted by Ken | Report as abusive

It is sad that we can lower ourselves to this but greed can make men do anything.

Posted by Kyle | Report as abusive

I worked at GM for 13 years as an engineer. I grew so tired of the tyrant managers, and the UAW committeeman that I could no longer stand it and left the corporation. It’s funny, most of the hourly workers, and the engineers and supervisors were hard working, talented people. but the wars between upper management and the union management were insane. I’m truly surprised it has taken this long for these companies to fall apart

Posted by John | Report as abusive

Through the years I have purchased a 2 GM vehicle, a chrysler vehicle and 3 Ford. I will never purchase another car from the big three or any government produced car. Every single vehicle I purchased fell apart. But, stupid me, I thought I was just unlucky. American cars must be good, afterall, made American. Now I know why they weren’t. The workers purposefully built cars that they knew were no good and sold these sabatoged cars. I paid for their garbage.

I now own a Toyota Camry. My first non-American made car and it is wonderful. I will never buy American again and I don’t want my tax dollars helping these idiots of American ingenuity who purposefully built and sold garbage.

Posted by peanut | Report as abusive

As a former manager at Ford and later Honda during this time period, the corporate cultures were completely opposite. At Ford, god help you if you spoke to your boss’s boss about what was going on – everything was filtered. At Honda, anyone could speak directly with the President. At Ford it was always “good enough”, and at Honda it was “no matter how good, how can we make it better?”. At Ford management and the union saw each other as the enemy. At Honda, management and workers co-operated with the view that other manufacturers were the foe. SO — If American management and workers can build the worlds BEST car at the USA Toyota plant, how come American management and workers build the worlds WORST cars at the GM plant?? Answer – the UAW. BY LAW the Big 3 could not form an employers group to lock out the UAW, so the industry was defenceless. Like a cancer, grossly excessive union compensation caused the industry to collapse. Further, it will never revive until the Big3 corporate culture changes.

Posted by Ben There | Report as abusive

Isn’t it odd how the industries with the most powerful unions are all going overseas? Has anyone who is pro-UAW ever looked at the disparity between what auto workers and other industrial workers make? And please don’t even try to argue the quality of the product. Time and experience have shown us that neither the workers or management cared about quality. The UAW fought authority, and authority won. And every American lost, and is still losing. Wow. How novel. Thanks, Michigan.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

Hey peanut, your Toyota Camry is made in America, do your homework before your comment. It was not just Union and management that killed the US Auto Industry. Those accountants and shareholders looking to maximize profits have pushed their cost-cutting agendas so far that design & materials are so cheap and unreliable that no matter how well you assembled it, it simply would not last.

Posted by john | Report as abusive

With everything we now know about how this nation is run and governed, how is it that people still tell me to my fact that this is the best country on earth? I hear this all of the time. I’m a well traveled person, I’ve seen how others live and work. I often find myself envying them. It is almost unbearable for me to return to the USA after a long absence. When I try to pin people down by giving me an example of HOW America is better, they falter, and give me some non-answer. With the US auto industry we have a perfect example of the lie hitting up against the truth. And this isn’t the only example. It’s high time Americans stopped believing the mindless rhetoric and started demanding better.

Posted by Bob Foster | Report as abusive

C.D. Walker,
You again push your Communist ideas. For you, the Proletarian (oh, pardon me, UAW worker) is always right because he belongs to a progressive class. The Capitalist is always wrong because Capitalism is condemned to the garbage heap of history.
However it’s those Proletarians engaged in their Class Warfare for their “rights” that brought American auto industry to pitiful state it’s in. Somehow the non-union plants of Japanese, Koreans, and Europeans produce cars here in the USA, make profit, and are never short of workers who allegedly are mistreated, abused, and underpaid without union representation. And these foreign nameplates assembled in the USA of American-made components are wanted by the consumers, unlike the lemons built by formerly-big 3. The major difference – there’s UAW at formerly-big 3, and none of it at Toyota and others.
Who are UAW and, more generally, union workers? Uneducated semi-skilled workers demanding (and usually getting) college grad level pay, executive level benefits and vacations, and public servant level retirement. All this comes at the expense of investors, consumers condemned to pay more for lemons, R&D (management has to cut costs somewhere) and, ultimately, American auto industry as a whole.
Now it’s getting funny. UAW will soon own Chrysler and, presumably, GM. It will be worth a Hollywood comedy to see a union boss one minute instructing the workers to fight for their “rights”, and the next minute demanding from the managers to cut costs and extract more profits. And the ways both sides fight their Class Warfare are greatly described by R. Dewar.

Posted by Anonymous | Report as abusive

If we weren’t so Resource needy, we wouldn’t need to be Imperial and could focus on what made this country so great.

Remember when the “roads were made of Gold?”
The economy became a monster, useful when needed, but today we need to rethink its use in the form it now presents itself as.

Money is only a tool, a means of exchange. Too many horde, by not paying a person an honest wage.
With an honest wage a person can spend his/her money in what ever way they wish, follow any hobby they chose, travel, invest, start a company, read, write, woodwork, go clubbing, out to eat all the time.
The beauty of capitalism is its freedom. Capitalism allows the population to spend its time doing what ever it wishes (within the law and moral decency)
Communism tells its people what to do.
The problem with the American Economic model of today is its overly burdensome strain on the Middle Class.
Money is a liquid, and as we have learned with credit, it has to flow.

It didn’t bother credit companies to issue horrible credit, after horrible credit to people and companies. It bothers these companies now to give credit when its most needed because it doesn’t profit them. At least as not a good as before.

Society has to spend money for any heavily dependent consumer/manufacturing economic model because what is made must be used. and replaced. More times its needed to be replaced the better. Enter cheap product made by cheap labor. A consumer society then begins to eat itself like a snake because all the profits are going to large corporations that do not put enough back into the pool.

Image a large pool of water filled with fish(us) covered in golden scales. Around this pool sit the fat cats of industry. Each take our scales more and more without feeding us, so we can regrow the scales they take. When they have taken all the scales, and have starved their fish, what do they do?
War! take other fish.

Again, Anon, Look up the definition of Communism, and find one country on the map that is classless, where everyone owns everything equally. Communism is a word used to scare and fearmonger, mostly by dictators and big business.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

My experiences as a team leader in the IT industry are similar.
Productive skilled workers have many motivations (“leading programmers is like herding cats”). Bad management tends toward more layers of control and reporting, justifying their jobs and salaries by claiming to squeeze more productivity from the workforce. The best workforce goes elsewhere, the remainder do as little as possible, and are preoccupied with survival politics against their enemies, the “suits”.
The top management then decide that the work is better done in India.
Nothing specific to autos, or the presence of unions, or the USA.

Posted by Survivor? | Report as abusive

Was saying that for years. The UAW killed the American auto industry with the help of the auto makers themselves. Neither thought of anything but profit for themselves.

Posted by Sonny | Report as abusive

It is amazing to me how people can read an article and miss what it says ltogether. A poster mentioned the
“self-serving management”. Does anyone ever put the the blame where it belongs,on the union workers, the UAW? The article reads, and I quote:

The UAW arsenal easily outgunned management. Production was sabotaged. Critical employees were absent when high production was most needed. Tools mysteriously disappeared. Bad quality was run purposely. The weakest, least desirable employees were protected with the full power of the labor contract. When management and the UAW stood eyeball to eyeball, management always backed down – they had too – productivity and profitability hung in the balance.”

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

The UAW and Ford management were like 2 monopolies on the the demand side and the supply side. Ford management could only get factory workers from the local UAW union. Likewise, a UAW Ford worker could not get factory job at Timken or National Cash Register without loosing pay and job security. I see John was an engineer with GM for 13 years, but was probably able to get a better job somewhere else. The forces of competition do not work with a monopoly on both sides, or even one side. Workers need to be able to change jobs and use their skills in other industries were the pay is higher. Likewise, management needs to be able to hire workers to obtain the skills mix they need for their changing industry.

C.D. Walker,
I do know what communism is. Even Wikipedia provides 2 definitions thereof. Guess which one I believe right? Not the one the Communists themselves put forth.
And if you need to point at any Communist state – there are China, Cuba, Vietnam, and the most Communist of all – North Korea. Venezuela is not quite there yet, but will be soon if Chavez gets his way.
Even if we look at the definition of Communism the Communists themselves would like (as per Wikipedia):“…egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.” Ownership can be common – in the name only. Control is always personified. And guess who puts any particular person in the position of control? The local boss of the Communist party. And who puts this boss in control of, as they call it, “cadres”? Higher-up in that same Communist party. And so on all the way to Politburo and Secretary General. That’s how it was in USSR, that’s how it’s in China, despite all seemingly Capitalist tendencies in business. That’s what makes the system totalitarian and tyrant – men in power don’t like to share it. The system is designed so that every Communist boss has absolute control and power on his level. “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” – Lord Acton

Posted by Anonymous | Report as abusive

Let’s compare union states with non union states.
My state is Right to Work (non-union) state and has a GM plant going strong still. It has a 14 BILLION dollar surplus, rejected the stiumlus money, created 80% of the jobs created by any state in 2008, has the 15th largest economy in the world, is the top exporter state in the USA. And you need a union to make it? Pitiful.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

If the Employee free choice act passes, I’ll buy a Chinese or Korean made car next time rather than support union labor.

Posted by Unclened | Report as abusive

Anon. Again.

Wow, now your just foaming at the mouth, spitting a flurry of words that make no real sense.

Ownership can be common – in the name only. Control is always personified. And guess who puts any particular person in the position of control? The local boss of the Communist party

HUH?
as for ownership, i own my home, and if you think your going to take it, meet my gun.
As for control of this country, this great Free Country, it belongs to the people,”We the People” starts the constitution, its why we vote. Did you forget we elect a new leader every 4 years? To make sure no Dictator rules or a Religious zealot takes power? The power was given to the people.
Name a Communist country where the power rest with the people?
As long as America has differing Intellects, differing Theologies, and differing levels of pay, based on skill and ability, this country will NEVER be Communist.
Again, you throw the word “Communist” around like a fear monger, trying to scare people from making Business abide by the Laws, Ideals, and Principles that make this country great. How can we say we are a moral, or ethical society, when we allow a part of society(business) abuse all other sections of society?
In Communist Countries it is the Dictators who abuse the people, in America, it just Business as Usual.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

The article reflects our consistent use of money as a means of control. Profit being the only real motive, it is the source of contention between workers and owners. Both unions and business owners have the ability to corrupt an agreement. And in the case of the auto industry it’s no different.

Both sides were focused on “the bottom line” as a result the owners had little in the way of anything remotely resembling a plan for the future. And the UAW stifled any competitive edge the American auto industry may have had by way of its never ending quest to get a bigger share of the pie.

Since money is the most important thing, all agreements and all productive efforts are contingent on the prevailing economic conditions. So really good products will often times not make it because there is no funding to get them to market. Think of the variety of alternative car makers just waiting for their chance to shine if the big three fail. And if the market is dominated by an intended competitor then the good product will never see the light of day.

Now if the auto industry was focused not on profit but on quality, then there would be no problems in the auto industry like we are experiencing now. What if American automakers were focused on creating the most advanced vehicles on earth? What if they were working for pride instead of profit? That’s how it should be.

Right now there’s a guy living across the street from you that knows EVERYTHING there is to know about cars. You know some one that can take a car apart and put it back together without breaking a sweat. You know some one that can trick your car out and make it work ten times better than it did coming off the showroom floor.

These are the people who should be making our cars. And if they all had steady incomes, these are the kinds of people that would seek each other out and build them. Profit motive stagnates growth. It inhibits free expression and creativity. We are human beings and creativity and expression is what we do best.

This is why automating the treasury and federal reserve systems so that they run free from central human control, and thus free of political/corporate influence is the best way to go.

Giving every American an equal share in GDP will foster tremendous growth and technological development. Opponents will say that it will never work. But they can never tell you why. An “open” economic system where every American has equal access to the means of exchange will foster open technological/social advancement the likes of which we have not seen in our history.

We have the technology to do it and support it. We can make it work. It will solve our current financial problem.

Oh Benny, come off it. When have unions ever had control of a companies bottom line?
Just throw tons of words up like a snowstorm trying to numb
the reader towards your way of thinking.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

I live on the same 8 acre farm house my Grandfather built with his own two hands, with the help of his wife and children. I am a farmer. I do not like Welfare at all. To me, and i believe to Andrew Jackson and Thomas Jefferson, or any Founding Father, taking money from those who work and giving it those who don’t, is backwards. It rewards slothfulness. This country was built by those willing to work for an honest wage. This country needs to be cleaned up, its infrastructure needs rebuilt, we have a workforce collecting money, for doing nothing?

Change that. You want money from the Government, taxpayers money? Work for it. State governments should take those in line at the welfare office and make them do the manual labor jobs needed to beautify this country. Pick up trash, clean parks and roads, go through neighborhoods and make them worthy of being American. We need to rebuild bridges, dams and Levies, so lets use those on welfare and unemployment and make them work. If you refuse to work, its your choice, your freedom and freewill. You’ll get foodstamps, i’ll feed my brother, but i will not reward you for sloth.

Prisoners; If you are going to be like an animal, and live in animalistic rage and violence, I would cage you like the animal you act like. If you are cordial, nonviolent, then you will work your sentence in fields growing your own food, and not be a burden on the taxpayer. Any excess food should go to food banks to feed the down and out, or those unwilling to work.

America needs to roll up its shirt sleeves and WORK our way out of this mess. Like the Founding Fathers built a country from nothing, we can make this country great again, greater than what it was. We just have to want it, and work at it.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

Hey Bob Foster,

My vin number on my camry strats with a J which I believe means it was built in Japan as the dealer told me that the first letter of the vin number represents the country of orgin. My 1999 camry has 36,000 miles on it and runs beatifully. My ford escort got 64,000 miles and then died. My GM cutless got 19,000 miles and died. My Chrysler lost its steering at ll,000 miles and crashed on the freeway. Lucky no one was killed.

So far my Camry runs perfect.

Posted by peanut | Report as abusive

I think what this opinion says to me is that the problem is caused by punitive management policies, which the most successful companies know work only 1 percent of the time.

Posted by Josef Hoffman | Report as abusive

Last year I gave away a 1984 Volvo with 320,000 miles on it – it did not burn oil and was a daily driver. I have a 1984 Mercedes 240D with over 290,000 on it – it still runs well. About five years ago I sold my 1980 Subaru with over 240,000 on the odometer – We had the car for well over 20 years and it ran well. I just bought a new Subaru Forester and I hope to get at least 300,000 miles and 20 years of service and the same goes for my Mercedes E320.

Posted by Jim | Report as abusive

This informative article illustrates what many have long suspected. So sad that neither management nor union staff at US plants sought fit to put the common good ahead of their own selfish interests. No wonder Asian countries can make virtually anything better and cheaper than the West; South-East Asians have a culture that values respect of other people and their ideas – - a concept lost a long time ago in the hedonistic USA.

Posted by Anthony Kovic | Report as abusive

Mr. Dewar makes some really good points here. It’s disgusting to me that the union would protect the job of someone who repeatedly showed up for work drunk. It kills the company and enables the alcoholic. My father supervised union workers in a manufacturing plant as I was growing up, and I remember all the headaches he had with workers who were incompetent, but unable to be fired.

It’s tricky. There needs to be a balance of power. Employees need to be protected from tyrant supervisors, but companies also need to be protected from incompetent and unproductive workers.

Posted by Eddie | Report as abusive

CD,

Instead of offhandedly criticizing ones thoughts. You should perhaps learn to think.

“Oh Benny, come off it. When have unions ever had control of a companies bottom line?”

If unions didn’t affect the bottom line then what was the big hangup with the UAW during this whole GM bankruptcy issue? You don’t think that employee pay comes out before profit is totaled up?

You don’t think that contracts that drive up the rate of pay affect the bottom line of a company? You don’t think that kicking in for benefits and retirement packages has an effect on profits?

Because both the unions and the owners are fighting over who should get how much of whatever profit, focus on the actual product or service suffers. EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT has an equal share in this mess. It’s not JUST big business, it’s not JUST the unions.

“Just throw tons of words up like a snowstorm”
Do you even read these posts? Or are you just trolling around to find some one start crap with?

Union relations strongly affect the bottom line. But I do not blame poor relations between management and unions entirely for the demise of the industry. In fact, it is precisely because these two parties got along during contract negotiations that production costs became non-competitive.

In many respects, these stakeholders agreed to make the car companies unsustainable entities mostly because of pride, partly because of greed and stupidity. When companies that control a market lose it to foreign competitors – despite the home-field advantage – that is a really sad story.

There are many lessons not taught in business school. One of them is that money is not is everything. Short-term gains are always possible if we give up on innovation, reliability, quality and durability. The reason why these companies failed is because they produced inferior products in shrinking markets with slim profit margins.

Posted by Don | Report as abusive

Over the course of my life I’ve been a member of 5 unions and they’re all the same: greedy, self-centered & serving, do only enough to get by (usually that means: do nothing unless it is ok’d in your union contract & per your job description), use more people than necessary to do the job, no common sense or logic needed in any of the decision making process’ & this company exists solely for “my” benefit, screw the customer, quality-control & or efficiency & defend the slacker & incompetent at ALL costs because we can’t afford a reduction in our union membership rolls.

Unions originally began with a great idea: a living wage and fair treatment in the work place; but over the years, they’ve strayed from their original purpose & are milking the cash cow for all it’s worth & will continue to do so until that cow is dry & then, like the locust, move on to the next meal.

In all fairness, this criticism of unions is not to be taken as a defense of big business, for they are just as much at fault for their inaction, failure to see the writing on the wall, improve their management & business models to line up with market conditions & treat their employees according to fair & equitable business practices.

Us vs. Them: that’s their model alright: these 2 types of organizations actually deserve each other. Teamwork?….these two organizations don’t know the meaning of teamwork & that is why they’re failing.

Has it ever occurred to unions & big business to peg wage increases to performance, sales, product quality & pay out rewards via stock options & other incentives?….the non-performers & other slackers who can’t seem to understand the real meaning of work & refuse to team-play would be weeded out & that includes both union & management.

When the dollar replaces the product as the main focus of a company, that company is lost; a good product sells itself & will generate sales via word of mouth, regardless who makes it.

Posted by Sgr | Report as abusive

Hmm. American made cars are crap? I beg to differ. I own a 1999 Ford Escort. it has 135,000 miles and still runs smooth and trouble free except for a worn out solenoid thats more of an inconveniance than a problem and easily replaced. My Father’s daily driver is a 1995 Ford E-350 that just rolled over 270,000 miles and it still runs smooth and burns no oil at all. A buddy of my dad’s just a couple of years ago stopped driving his 1978 F-150 again no major problems but some rust from all those Michigan winters. I wonder just how many of these “I had an american car and it fell apart at 20K miles” stories are actually true.

Posted by Justin Newman | Report as abusive

Management confiscating the coffee pot was very poor strategy.

coffee = caffeine

Posted by John Graham | Report as abusive

Don’t we have bankruptcy law, and don’t we all follow the rule of the law? If so, why do the Obama Administration decide how Chrysler should be divided going bankrupt, and not the court? If you don’t pay your employees’ retirement benefits, do your employees have the right to take over your business, like own 55% of your business, as compared to the first lien bank loans? And you could lose your home the same way irrespective of the bank’s first lien? That seems to happy only in Washington DC, and will happen to GM anytime. Time to go communism, where workers have more power and can own what they want? Isn’t it scary in America now-a-day?

Posted by Jerry Lim | Report as abusive

amazing article and real story – no doubt these failing companies have many real stories of failure.
the honest truth is that made in american used to mean high quality – and the lazy-self centered- greedy-visionless management killed the company. When companies like the big3 reach a certain point without competition and innovation they protect thier paychecks not thier marketshare, and there is nobody there to hold them accountable because all management including CEOs are in on the scam. fat bloated failures like these should be closed down in favor of better smaller ones who are constantly innovating and working on products people want.

Posted by Jay | Report as abusive

Sorry article.. a bit of sour grapes by “Management” that could not.. Just more of the new USA “blame the union and workers” scam going on now. Just a thought for those that so worship the “Great foreign auto’s”. Note Korea AND Japan and most of EU has big import restrictions on USA auto’s.. and nearly impossible to build in USA and ship one there. Second MB, VW, and Korea-Japan and even China have very strong unions..,. but the companies there also are run by INDUSTRY qualified leadership, not the “bottom line wizards” that run USA industry, into the ground for one more dime in profits. Then we have the EU-Asian health care systems… mostly that nasty ole single payers that the greed mongers of USA ins-health care so hate/fear for profit loss. anyone remember seeing ANY data on profits, whom and how much for that industry…just the ole “costs keep going up 8-10% yearly etc”. Same with “Quality issues”… that is strickly a management functions.. and “bottom line profit” for years “file to fit, paint to match and get it out the door”…NOTE Gas hog SUV’s..”no small cars from USA” etc.. well until few years back USA so loved the big SUV and I still do not really understand why a urban type needs a 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickup? But USA built what WE wanted…in fact Japan got into same market..
Have worked with the evil union types for years, they pretty much did what management told them to do, and amused at how “slovenly unions type build junk etc” but none seem to mention our Boeing’s, Lockheeds etc. products built by unions.
Base issue in USA is the money/Right wants unions busted, the final jewel in the crown of ole Ronnie R’s “union gotta go” program. The real reason USA if behind world is I seriously doubt Japan/China/Korea/EU citizens would tell their government, “go ahead and pay our workers what the foreign plants in nation pay their workers and keep allowing unfair trade”. If a pol in any of those nations suggested that, they would be branded as evil, at best. Note even Wal Mart has union workers in China. But USA is going so dumbed down, that the political s can push anything big money wants and the a lot of drooling masses simply go along, so let’s beat up the unions, blame mid level mgmt…and run about drooling about “we support capitalism”…when most do not really have a clue about what that requires. Yea, can just hear hear the people in Asia and EU telling thier companies to “pay same lower wages, go away with the benefits as are the foreign firms doing here as that will help us grow”. No wonder USA is failing across the board…. most simply not smart enough to know that the mighty Toyota, Honda, VW and others in deep trouble, their government bailing them out..and our media of course NEVER mentions any of that. So USA, you are on down hill side of curve…. and simply to stupid to know it… yet!

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Good thing this guy moved on from ford . ..otherwise they might be in Bankruptcy too.

Posted by flyingeagel | Report as abusive

Oh benny,

By your argument, you are saying that Corporate management is so bad in its business model and execution that they default to the wisdom of the Unions? How else would Unions effect the bottom line? Harvard and other top notch business schools have classes on Management. Making Money is involved, so Psychologists got involved and monitored the interactions of different personality types in the Roles of Manager, and Worker.

If you are going to make the most money, you need to know how people interact with each other, whether they will help each other with ideas and actions to make money or
if the interaction of specific personalities will clash and be unhelpful towards each other and hinder the ability of a corporation to make money.

Your telling me these highly trained, extremely intelligent upper executive corporate management didn’t realize the ramifications of placing “Tyrants” in charge?

No wonder American Auto Industry has failed. Large Companies do no FAIL at the bottom. Failure comes from above and trickles down.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

The “Management” in the article only talks about the “Factory Management”. If you understand business, every “factory” is a small cell of the Larger Corporation. The management in these factories are usually educated at smaller universities and not taught at the level of the Larger Corporation Executives who are taught a Yale, Harvard, Ect.

In my opinion those educated at Harvard should have a better grasp of all aspects of Management and Human Resources. When you look at people as a resource, it is easy to see that the American resource is much to expensive compared to “Resources” in other slave labor countries.
I can see the board of director sitting around a table.
“How can we make more money for us, and our stockholder?”
“Our overhead (cost of business) can be trimmed.”
“How?”
“Find cheaper labor.”
“Where? Overseas? that will make us (American Car company run by Americans) seem un-American.”
“Set up a situation in which we can make Labor Unions look bad so we can justify moving operation overseas.”
“Good idea! how can we do it?”
“We can lower productivity and quality by placing bad “managers” in the factories who have no people quality. Then we breath down their necks to improve everything across the board. They will try to get the workers to improve the only way the “Manager” knows how, they will try to bully them, which won’t work.”
“Brilliant! Then we can blame the Unions, move overseas where we don’t have to pay as much in taxes, insurance, social security, wages, ect. and the public will understand because of the Horrible Unions!”

You going to tell me these Harvard business school graduates didn’t learn examples of bad management styles in their expensive schools? They better get their money back.

http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

It’s pretty clear that this guy has NOT been inside the auto industry for some time. As a recent GM retiree I can remember these days but they were a VERY long time ago. I worked for many supervisors who had this type of mentality over the years and yes it was us against them, is there really anyone that would not take the police state mentality that is portrayed here as a personal attack on them?? The working environment has changed greatly over the years and this is certainly not an example of the work floor in this day and age.

Posted by rob | Report as abusive

The auto plant wars are an extension of class warfare in this country. Such practices occur in non union manufacturing industries and businesses as well. This is not to say all businesses are involved in such a struggle. Clearly that is not the case. None the less CEO compensation defies reason. The top 15 percent income bracket has seen their wages multiply in the last three decades while the middle class has remained stagnant or lost ground. Stock earnings are more important than the social cost of ever recurring layoffs.

As a society we have been at war with each other over abortion, gay rights, drugs, climate and a host of other issues. We then became divided on these issues by political party affiliation. Government became as polarized as society. Hence no reform on education, health care, climate, energy and fiscal responsibility.

Humanity now faces the greatest challenges in recorded history. All nations must work together. We can help to achieve nothing if we choose to remain divided.

Posted by Anubis | Report as abusive

C.D. Walker,
Now that you ran out of legit arguments you started slinging sh… pardon me, personal insults.
If you can’t make sense of something, it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no sense. It might just mean that your abilities to make sense are limited. Not to worry. A farmer definitely doesn’t need an advanced degree to tend his land and animals.
The description of Communist boss having absolute power is related to former and current Communist states. It has no relation to the realities of the USA and hopefully never will.
But it seems to scare the hell out of you – hope it will make you re-think your position. As you seem to think now, socialization of auto industry is alright – working class deserves decent living (and it seems that, according to you, it means own house, new car, and whatever other perks the credit card would pay for when the income doesn’t suffice). But socialization of your own farm – “i own my home, and if you think your going to take it, meet my gun.” When it’s going to affect you personally, you start thinking. Now make another intellectual effort to see that auto industry investors have as much rights on the companies, including plants, equipment, and coffee pot, as you have on your farm.

Posted by Anonymous | Report as abusive

CD Walker. Your plan is socialism in action.

Posted by VexACt | Report as abusive

“Isn’t it odd how the industries with the most powerful unions are all going overseas?”

If this “fact” is used to build an anti-union case, it won’t fly. Many industries have gone overseas including the semiconductor industry which is not unionized.

Management simply looks at where to find cheaper labor. Unions, whatever good or bad, pro or con, you may want to say is not the driver of the off-shoring of America. The profit drive is. The desire to get obscene levels of ROI in a common stock. Which causes the BOD to direct actions which benefit the bottom line, not “America”. America is not the first thought of capitalists. Profit is.

Whether that is good or bad, I’ll leave it to the extremists here to battle out.

Posted by Richard Goutal | Report as abusive

Actually, C.D. Walker is right, to an extent. On both ends of the fight there are grave flaws that are easily seen when examined from the proper perspective. The unions protect every worker, no matter how lazy they may be; the companies themselves are pressing their managers with the idea that bullying them in ways that the union can’t stop will increase productivity. Both sides are doing seriously foolish things, so one cannot blame only the unions or only the corporations. Everyone’s at fault.

Posted by Josh | Report as abusive

When management is trained at today’s universities they must teach – or the students must on grasp – the principle that cash is king, and profits are the primary goal.

The real issue in that thinking is that money today is based on “trust”. Its not based on gold, or products, or even the sweat of your brow.

When profit is made using money that is borrowed to pay for products created in a foreign land, two things happen:

1. Profit is made.
2. The profit made is created using the expansion of debt, because no worker was used to generate the product created.

I am not a fan of Unions – I believe they corrupt the very system they intended to protect. Plus, with the web being what it is today – no manager can be a tyrant and hope to survive the lashings given by the public. More over – Unions need to generate crisis to validate their existence — this is akin to congress needing to spend money on earmarks (at least the politicians believe its needed) to validate their re-election later on.

The most important thing a business creates is a job. If the job is local – the the business has created a consumer for that local environment. If not – then the consumer is remote, and to balance an equal product must be exported else the system degrades. Profit gained is a lie. Cash – in this case is nothing more than paper.

Yes – you are a billionaire, but so is Hasbro – they make billions for monopoly boards daily.

Business in America needs to create real consumers – not paper consumers, backed by debt. Which means production needs to match consumption, whether foreign or local. India, China and others need to understand, banning foreign products – only feeds a fire which will eventually end with factories having no one to buy their products – as the paper consumers can no longer handle the debt, upon which their Harvard and Yale trained management has pinned their economic models.

BTW – Borrowing to end a crisis caused by Banks – yeah print more paper to solve a problem caused by too much paper… more Harvard business there too I think. Maybe a few science classes would help you understand the fundamental laws of conservation – energy in always equals energy out.

Posted by Chris | Report as abusive

Well I remember my union days. Always the cry, “Equal pay for equal work.” I always asked, “Are you willing to give equal work for equal pay?” An American tragedy. Neither anarchy nor socialism works.

Posted by El Gato | Report as abusive

http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/

Chris-

If cash is king, why is Americas economy based on credit?
I’ll tell you why.

Those who give credit(banks and creditors) own whatever it is you buy, because they(Federal Reserve) have raised inflation, thus the value of everything, out of the reach of the average worker. As they keep raising the cost of living, this Economy of Greed does not raise the wage it pays to those who DO ALL THE REAL WORK!

To live in America in any kind of comfort, you have to be in debt to your eyes, just to own a house or a car! or even to pay for college, which “MIGHT” enable you to achieve a better job, maybe if Business is higher in America.

Creditors own everything you buy with credit, then keep the wages low as they (Fed and International Banks) raise inflation so you can’t afford anything without coming to them for credit. A perfect perpetual cycle in which Creditors reap the most profits while allowing the public to actually own anything.

Banks are acting like Communist countries as they continually try to take away what makes America great, the ability of the average American to own land, or private property.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/

Oops!
A perfect perpetual cycle in which Creditors reap the most profits while allowing the public to actually own anything.

should have put “while NOT allowing the public to actually own anything.”

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

The natural tension between management and labor clearly was allowed to rage out of control in Mr. Dewar’s examples. Some have posted comments suggesting that the relationship is better now than in the past. Maybe both sides are realizing they are in it together. Nevertheless, while subverting each other during the 1980s and 1990′s labor and management sent otherwise loyal customers to foreign nameplates – in droves – and they will never get them back.

Posted by Paul Alan | Report as abusive

It’s over!

These continuing polarizing discussions with the quintessentially defined age old nemesis “Us vs. them”, Management vs. Employee and/or Bourgeoisie vs. Proletariat serve no purpose at all.

The freight train is in motion and the entertia is too great to stop. Only on TV spider man can stop a run-away freight train. In real life politics, President Obama fills us with feel good rhetoric but real lasting change is too late to implement. Fact is, for what is left of the US economy and its sovereign citizens is bought and sold on the steps of congress every day. And the sellers are foreign and now a day, the buyers are out or touch career politicians who are equally as foreign to the blight of the average American.

Only Ross Perot has the foresight to see that once you open the doors of unequal trade imbalance, that we can all stand at the boarder and listen to the sucking sound. And with it went our prosperity. And with it, went our way of life. And with it, went the possibility of the American Dream for the masses.

Don’t be a fool. Don’t let the big business owned and operated media continue to polarize you on these issues, while like birds of prey, we hopelessly are embraced in a free fall towards the earth, clinging to our misconceived ideals, while all the meanwhile our nest are being robbed and raided by multinational lobbyist who could care less about the American way of life.

Now, with no tariffs to protect our markets and unequal trade practices which give foreign competition every advantage, truly owned and operated US firms have all but ceased to exist.

You have become slaves. Do you want to go out fighting each other?

Wake up. Be prudent. Stand back and take a look at a larger picture. Remember to always follow the money.
Who stands to gain from actions in Congress? Don’t kid yourself. You have been played fro a chump and you think because you get to participate in the great character debate every 4 years that you actually have a voice. It’s over. You can not compete any longer. The playing field is irreparably unequal. And you have turned on yourself and devour one another.

Get a clue! A house divided can not stand.

Posted by Mark | Report as abusive

Quote Anubis: The auto plant wars are an extension of class warfare in this country. Such practices occur in non union manufacturing industries and businesses as well.

Apparently you failed to read my post on a non-union state. We’re doing fine, also we have no state income tax, and our 1/2 cent addition to our state and city tax pays for road and street construction before it is started usually. Our state legislature only meets for a maximum of 140 days every two years, which is still too much. Keep the unions and government out of business and you too will do great.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Let’s face the facts that if were not for greed a lot of companies would be better off. It does not matter if you are talking of greed at the top middle or bottom. It could be the company or the stock holders or the workers. The good old USA as we knew it will never be again and the question becomes how far down we are going? How fast and were is the bottom? I have worked as union and as non-union during strikes and as management/owner. All could have a good life with plenty but, greed kills the possibilities all to often. This is where we are different than other countries. We alow for greed to go unchecked until it is like a full blown cancer and death is eminent. Will we change? It is hard to believe it will happen for the better. So the real question is what are you doing to make this all work out better to create a better USA?

Posted by Pete | Report as abusive

CD, you really don’t read these posts do you?

If you wish, read this carefully. And if you wish to address my arguments on the merits I’d be happy to discuss. I know your heart is in the right place CD. I know you want a working solution just like anyone else. All I’m doing is offering an alternative that addresses the issues.

“By your argument, you are saying that Corporate management is so bad in its business model and execution that they default to the wisdom of the Unions?”

If you take a look at my previous post you’ll notice I said that every single participant is at fault.

“Making Money is involved, so Psychologists got involved and monitored the interactions of different personality types in the Roles of Manager, and Worker.”

Profit motive inhibits human progress in one very important way. It sets up an environment of default exclusion.

In other words, the only way to be a member of society is to have money. So, your character, your ability, your potential individual contributions count for nothing. Without money, you will simply live in the street. You will be regarded as human refuse if you are regarded at all.

Most people, if they knew that it wouldn’t hurt/diminish their capacity to act in some way, would be only too happy to help another person in need. If you needed a couple of dollars and it wouldn’t hurt me any to do it, I’d be glad to give you the money if it would help you.

And indeed, helping each other and teaching each other, is what we do under normal circumstances. Consider the three great religions of our time. Do you think that if copy right laws and intellectual property existed back then, that anyone would know about them today? Probably not. Jesus preached freely to the people because he cared more about us than about money. He could have made a good living as a carpenter. But he valued humanity more than money. During the sermon on the mount Jesus taught openly and not for money. He fed them from the bulk of his blessing. He didn’t sell them food.

Neither Abraham, nor Mohamed demanded royalties on their teachings. It was exactly because this knowledge was freely given and distributed, that so many great religious scholars, leaders, and innovators have risen over the centuries and contributed so much to our modern way of life. Many mistakes were made and have yet to be made. But the process will always continue because there are no restrictions on this knowledge in general.

Profit motive on the other hand, dictates that there is a price for everything, and nothing is given or received unless the price is paid. So you can’t get decent medical care. You can’t get the best educational options available. And you can’t even eat, if you don’t have any money. In this setup the only way to help your fellow is to give up some the limited resource you have so that your fellow can exchange it for some of their needs. If your means are limited this can be a problem. Because even though you naturally want to help, you can’t. And so you alienate yourself from your own sense of compassion. And as a society we get colder. Now when we see a starving child on a late night commercial, most of us will just change the channel. Who has any money to give to them? We’ve got our own problems right here. Right?

When every individual American citizen has an equal share of GDP, then each individual citizen will actually count. And economic interests will be directed by design towards the development of human potential.

And to those that think this is a foolish idea, I would remind you that you actually think your “money” is worth something. It’s only value lies in the “good faith and credit of the American government”. Good luck cashing that in for it’s actual worth.

Is it more foolish to let everyone have an equal share of this fake money? Or is it more foolish to allow someone else to dangle paycheck in front of you to get you to jump through hoops eight hours a day?

Lots of back and forth on this article. Only when the union is required to assure the integrity of their workers and management sets a reasonable level of production will the industry thrive. As for the conflict between the union and management, what do you expect. All we see on TV and read in the newspapers paints a world in conflict and yelling. We are trained from little on that conflict is the only way to resolve differences. WELL, IT IS NOT. It is a poor way, at best, to work out differences between people. Just like yelling at your children will not work, so yelling and scrapping between the union and management will not work.

Posted by f belz | Report as abusive

Willy-

getting government out of business(deregulating) really worked well for America didn’t it? (I look at the state of the economy) Who is going to keep business following the rules? Government is supposed to keep the population obeying the laws of this society, but not those in business? Who is going to make sure Business follows the ideal, principles, and laws of Liberty and Freedom that makes this country great? They sure do have a great track record for keeping themselves in check don’t they?

Benny said
“Profit motive inhibits human progress in one very important way. It sets up an environment of default exclusion.”

Well no kidding! Rich get their profits by extorting it out of those that work!

Then you go on about how everyone should get a piece of the GDP! What side are you on?

If you work, you should earn a wage, if you don’t work, you don’t get a wage!

You seem to try and distort the topic every time with an avalanche of words that contradict themselves!

I’m saying Business is out for themselves. Their bottom line is about making money off the people any way they can. All I am saying is that the government(of the people, by the people) is the only entity with the power to keep Business obeying the rules this society has put in place with the blood we have bleed.
Businessmen(Large Corporate Executives), Bankers, Lawyers, Commodity Traders, and Financiers make up only a SMALL part of this great American Capitalistic Society.
So how come this SMALL part of society is allowed to run amok with the economy without any fear of facing the consequences of wrong doing? Who ruined the economy?
The small group getting government bailout money for the worst business decisions in the history of Wall St. (still no indictments by the way) or the worker in a factory, Union or not?

How can we call ourselves a Free and Liberated Society when we allow a SMALL part of that society to disregard the laws that everyone is accountable to?

Andrew Jackson’s presidency saw a similar situation with banks using unregulated speculated credit to buy land.

The great depression was caused by Wall St. buying stocks on credit in an unregulated system.

Todays economic woes are directly related to credit swaps in a COMPLETELY unregulated economy.

Any one else see a pattern of behavior by these greedy selfish souls?

Fool me once, shame on you
fool me twice, shame on me
Lets not let the greedy fool us again.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

After years of working in union shops the one thing that stood out was the Unions were run and protected by the laziest thug in the shop. Good workers were threatened to perform no better than what they were told by the Shop Steward. Management on the other hand had to compete with this and try to get product out the door. No one ever thought that their names were on the procuct. In all cases everyone forgot the most important facet of the problem…THE CUSTOMER.

Then I managed from VP to President companies that were not unionized. You spoke to the people and explained the good and bad of the task ahead as well as the reward if accomplished to the Customers Satisfaction.

Yes they did not make the high wages of the union shop, but neither did they have to pay some Goon who lived better than they did.

Honestly the word PRIDE was what made these operations work and to this day they are still in business making a profit and paying their employees a very good salary.

When the MOB says pay me for protection, they go to jail.

When the Union says the same thing….it’s OK??

Posted by St. Nick | Report as abusive

CD, don’t look now but you say one thing and then you espouse the exact opposite.
Is your “little red book” lost??

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

CD,

Thank you. I now understand where the confusion seems to be coming in. I am in complete favor of maintaining our democratically elected republic. The reason I suggest that all Americans must share equally in GDP is because unlike you, I don’t believe that anyone should be required to earn anything that has no worth in and of itself.

Our money is worthless paper. But we use it to buy stuff. So let’s let our computers do what they do best and crunch numbers. Automate the treasury and federal reserve so that they carry out their responsibilities free of corporate and government influence.

Prioritize every citizen to be of equal priority and distribute this fake wealth equally across the population.

Money is not something to be earned. Respect is something to be earned. Skill and responsibility are to be earned. Money is just a tool. And nothing more.

Put it in its place and allow it serve all of us as it was intended.

Quote CD: “Who is going to make sure Business follows the ideal, principles, and laws of Liberty and Freedom that makes this country great?

Forget it CD. This country has been on the downhill run for years. I travel a lot in Europe,and you and many are laboring under a great mistake if you think this land is now the greatest. We’re so far behind in health, productivity, education, infrastructure, mass transit, ecomomy, longevity, etc. that it is pitiful. I almost laugh to keep from crying to see what our great country has become, when I return to it. We are not far from a third world country. Sad but true, and if you don’t believe it, get off the farm and travel a bit.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Simple. Bought a 1981 ford it was a piece crape. Just
bought 2009 ford nice car. Maybe they are waking up.

Posted by SAM | Report as abusive

Benny

Im sorry, you really seem to be dense.

You work, meaning you are contributing in some way to this society we call America. You don’t work means you are not contributing and do not deserve anything.
You sound like a Communist, meaning distributing the wealth via some computerized method to set up equality amongst this society.

Here is a reality check for you, People are only equal in their individuality, their soul, their thoughts, and the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.

Hers is another reality for you- People are different. Not everyone is a Quarterback. Not everyone is intelligent enough to become a doctor. Not everyone is willing to work, or train, or learn, or dedicate themselves to something with the same intensity.

This is what makes America’s Capitalism great! You work at what you want, what makes you happy, what you decide to train for, and achieve. Money is the means of exchange. With the money you earn, at whatever it is you wish to work at with the Liberty and Freedom that is your promised right, you can spend your money on whatever! You like wine, Wine Conissuer! You like Cars! Car collector! If you work just to pay the bills while you write, your free to do it.

tell me clearly what you stand for, and whose side your on.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Willy-

Im sorry you lost faith in America.
I have not.
We are the greatest, no matter what you think.
All we have to do is work, rebuild, rethink, retool.
The Founding Fathers of this great country were outnumbered, had hardly any resources, money, food, and weapons. Washington seemed to be our only competent general at times as this small fragmented colony reared up a tiny fist to defy the Largest Empire the world has seen up to that point.

No matter how dark it may seem, nothing, absolutely nothing will ever make be feel that this is not the greatest county, greatest nation, greatest society in the history of mankind.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/

I have to do some work on the farm my grandfather built with his own two hands with only the help of his wife and kids.

My straw just arrived and i got earn my food.
8 acres and freedom. Just trying to be what Thomas Jefferson envisioned, a self sufficient country of workers and farmers, free from the trappings of Business and the inconsistent Dogma of Religion.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

CD,

“Here is a reality check for you, People are only equal in their individuality, their soul, their thoughts, and the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.”

And being that these things are far superior to money, then why are we wasting time trying to “earn” money? What we should be focusing on is teaching our citizens and developing our human base so that we CAN all be productive members of society according to our gifts and talents.

Reality check for you CD, when you are dead, the money you worked so hard for will be spent by someone else. What matters is the mark you make in the world. Money is only a tool. And as long as you believe that human beings should be forced to earn their existence, then you are no better than the businesses you hate.

Quote CD : “We are the greatest, no matter what you think.
All we have to do is work, rebuild, rethink, retool.”

CD, I know what you are saying, but therein lies the problem. A big percentage of our young and middle aged people no longer have the work, rebuild, rethink retool ethic. The want to start at the top. If you want to know the truth, we are basically now a nation of slobs! I asked a friend in Germany if they had someone cleaning the highways all of the time, because they are spotlessly clean. The answer: “No, why would you pay throw out trash that you would have to pay someone else to pick up” That thinking is gone is the US. Sad but true.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Quote CD: “No matter how dark it may seem, nothing, absolutely nothing will ever make be feel that this is not the greatest county, greatest nation, greatest society in the history of mankind.”

Well then, it is of no use talking to you. Keep an open mind and take off the rose colored glasses. You would do much more good to help to improve the present state than to imagine that it doesn’t exist. BTW, I have you beat. I have 35 acres, and work just as hard as you.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Think about the mess we’re in as consumers. First we got those stimulus checks. We saved and paid down our debt. But government and business didn’t like that. If you got yourself out of debt then there would be no way to strike fear into you and get you to beg the powers that be to make it right.

So instead, the government gave over seven hundred billion tax dollars to the banks directly. Now think about this. The government gave the money that it took out of your pocket in exchange for the work that you do, and gave that money to wall street.

If your money has gone to fixing the economy then why do you still owe money on your house? Why do you still have bank debt?
Collectively “OUR MONEY” went to “fix the economy”. So why is business still holding consumers responsible for their debt even after taking their money? The Bank of America, JP Morgan etc.. took billions in tax dollars to stay alive. So why are you still being held accountable for your mortgage?

On the one hand Government pulls money out of your pocket before you even get to see it.And then gives it to the business sector. The business sector says thanks and pockets your money. And then expects you to also pay your “debt”. As if they’d even be around to ask for it if you hadn’t given up your money to begin with.

I should perhaps qualify that last post as being an example of how money is being diverted from its main purpose and used instead as an instrument of fear, uncertainty, and control.

Willy

So just because you a little more land than me your better?
That is the mentality of Wall St., Bankers, Faninciers, ect. but they have money.

Benny

again you keep twisting and twisting words trying to make them meet what ever it is your trying to say.

Truth is very simple.
Can you tell me what you stand for very simply?
with easy words for all to understand?
without trying to talk like a lawyer
or a banker
or a swindler

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Willy-

Did you stop to think that we are in the perfect situation to create the right mentality in America? The retool, rethink, get back to work mentality it will take to make this place respectable again.
You don’t want to work, hey, your choice, your freewill, you just wont get paid for nothing.
You want to work, rebuild this country so we can have pride in her again, you deserve to paid for that work, a paycheck with which you can save, or spend on anything your heart desires in this free capitalistic society that offers so much.
Who is standing in the way of America rebuilding? Because if they are, are they really American?

Posted by C.D. Willy | Report as abusive

Benny-

just re-read your
“Reality check for you CD, when you are dead, the money you worked so hard for will be spent by someone else. What matters is the mark you make in the world. Money is only a tool. And as long as you believe that human beings should be forced to earn their existence, then you are no better than the businesses you hate.”

Do we, or do we not have to earn our existence by growing the food we eat, supplying the water we drink, and building the homes we live in?
God makes us work for our food, who am i to say hes wrong. Its just the farm mentality, work for what you eat, work for your pleasures, and find peace in your land.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

Quote CD: “Willy

So just because you a little more land than me your better?
That is the mentality of Wall St., Bankers, Faninciers, ect. but they have money.”

Give it up, CD, you are a nut case. I was just making conversation, since you were posting about your 8 acres left by your grandfather. Big Deal. Why didn’t you work for that 8 acres??
Don’t address me again, all right. I don’t have the time or inclination to waste with a communist sympathizer. And wheter you realize it or not, that is what you are!

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Still trying CD?

“Do we, or do we not have to earn our existence by growing the food we eat, supplying the water we drink, and building the homes we live in?
God makes us work for our food, who am i to say hes wrong. Its just the farm mentality, work for what you eat, work for your pleasures, and find peace in your land.”

You are correct. We do work for what we need in this world. And money is the means by which we exchange what we work to produce.

You don’t see the difference? Money is a tool. You don’t work for MONEY. You work to produce food. You work to cure disease. You work to teach. You work to innovate. As soon as you start working for the sole purpose of accumulating money, you loose your humanity and become a slave.

And that’s what this is all about. No one is saying that you don’t have to work in order to live. What I’m saying is that you do not have to justify right to EXIST. You are no better than I. And I’m sure you’re a good farmer. But there are other skills and talents needed in society as well. And many times those skills go undeveloped because there is no money to pay for education.

According to your posts. Someone that doesn’t have any money doesn’t deserve to acquire the means to become successful. Where is your Christian charity? Where is your “Do unto others” philosophy? You’re not one to argue with God. So why do continue to hold that some people just don’t deserve to live like the rest of us just because they have no money? Didn’t God make the just and the unjust alike? Isn’t it written that God is no respecter of persons?

And doesn’t that mean that we are all equal in the eyes of God?
It’s time for America to put its money where its constitutional mouth is. If we are created equal according to the constitution, then we should all have equal buying power, so that each of us has a vested interest in making our country great again.

I worked in a non union plant as an hourly worker for almost 30 years and it was the same story there. I once had a supervisor who was known for producing more of the “4600 form” write ups than all the other 30 supervisors combined.

Production was inversely proportional to management trying to prove who was boss.

Posted by Outside Observer | Report as abusive

Willy-
Taking pride in the family farm equates to me being Communist? WOW. What this country started as was a farming country since electricity and manufacturing were yet to be invented. Calling a family farmer a Communist, what kind of person are you?

Benny-

Money is a tool. Just as is the torch a wielder uses when he creates. As is the computer, and the level, the compass, the tiller, a john deere tractor, a car. By your logic, i would have to work as a farmer to eat, then a car maker to have a car, then a gas attendent to get gas for that car, then… You get the point.
Money is the exchange. The wielder wields, get his honest wage, then with the freewill given to him by god, in this free capitalistic society he can buy beer to relax, if he so wishes. Or save for his kids, or retirement, pay for his bills. Maybe this guy has class and wants to travel to Washington state to see Mt. Hood. Maybe he wants to visit the smithsonian, go watch a movie, rent a DVD, buy a motorcycle, I hope you get it.

Again, i ask you what do you stand for? Why wont you answer such a simple question? Instead you keep trying to use a very, very inconsistent, as well as laughable illogical arguments trying to call me something i very plainly am not.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Benny-

“According to your posts. Someone that doesn’t have any money doesn’t deserve to acquire the means to become successful.”
What are you saying? How backwards and illogical is this sentence?

“Where is your Christian charity? Where is your “Do unto others” philosophy? You’re not one to argue with God. So why do continue to hold that some people just don’t deserve to live like the rest of us just because they have no money?”

Lets get one thing absolutely straight right now- God has absolutely NOTHING to do with money. What does the almighty need with money? Money is a man made thing, but how a man uses money is directly related to his soul.
Here is an insight to God for you, i hope it helps you,
The Bible, or any holy book for that matter, is nothing but a window to who you are, what is in your soul.
You want to find war and hate, you find it in that book. You want examples of intolerance and slavery? You’ll find them as well.

Look for love, you’ll find it. Look for peace, it’s in there.
As for charity? God made life on this planet hard for us to begin with for a reason. He made us work to appreciate this earth we were given. I’ll feed my brother, but i will not reward him for doing wrong.

“Didn’t God make the just and the unjust alike? Isn’t it written that God is no respecter of persons?”

God made humans. We come into the world as babies with a clean slate of experiences. We become “Just” or “Un-just” by our own actions, our own choices, our own freewill given to us by God. He has nothing to do with it.

You are still Illogical.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

I respect your tenacity CD. I really do.

You still hang on the idea that if everyone has an equal share in GDP that only the lazy will prosper and that it won’t be “fair” to those that don’t “work”.

But is that really what would happen? You make quite a few assumptions I think. You seem to think that people are slothful by nature. Do you think that the average person really has NO DESIRE to be productive in a way that gives them a sense of value and self respect?

I can tell you that right now, we already do give most of the money to those who do the least actual work. Farmers take a beating every day of the year. They get no mercy from the elements and economic conditions of the time. And if too many crops fail, times can be fare worse than lean.

But corporate executives get billions in bonuses and stock options even to this day. And they are the ones that caused this mess in far greater part than the average consumer. So the people that do the least work and cause the most harm already get more money than the people that do the hardest jobs that do the most good. That’s the system we live in RIGHT NOW.

However, in an open economy where every American citizen shares an equal part of GDP, the money will actually pool where the real talent and innovation lies.

We have thousands of unemployed engineers, doctors, blue collar workers, etc… right now. There is real skill sitting out there idle right now. There are inventors just chomping at the bit to produce prototypes of technologies that would defy belief and bring immeasurable good to the community. But none of it can happen because they’re broke.

If they each had a set income based on GDP, you can bet that they would be busy creating and innovating right now. And those in the community that are enthusiastic about bringing these new innovations forward can just start working together with these bright young minds. Each contributing a small portion of their share of GDP to the project. Thus funding happens directly through community participation. Get rid of copy right laws and “intellectual property too”. After all if everyone has a steady income then those devices no longer serve a purpose.

This is what I’m talking about CD. Let the money decide for itself where the real value lay.

If you could actually live on your farm and sell the produce during good times but still know that you’ve got the money to stock up for rainy days, you’ve got a double win. You’ve got the cash to buy extra supplies to help you during lean times when harvest isn’t so good, and you’ve got the extra money you make from selling during the good times to add to your already steady share of GDP. So now you’ve got profit. You’ve got real goods. And you’ve got a steady income.

And the people who produce get the most. That is an open economy.

Sure! What an intellectually insightful story.
Cannot wait to buy the book…

It was not the decades of lack of R&D while the
Japanese did their homework.

It was not taking short cuts and just selling
unreliable, gas-guzzling vehicles.

It was not just selling vehicles, which paint started
peeling of the bodywork after a couple of years.

Please let us not kid ourselves, it was US consumers
who did GM in. For years Detroit took us for granted,
but over the years a gradual revolt happened. Many
of us got fed up of the crap and started buying
foreign vehicles. And the rest is history.

Posted by Gabe Wong | Report as abusive

Often we can change the term “management” to “tyrants” and be talking about the same people. There’s something to the notion that one is promoted up to his ultimate level of incompetence.

Also, why do we accept the fact that Hyundai and Toyota have come onto our shores and are paying American workers less than GM and Ford? Is that what America is about — moving downward? Oh yeah, I forgot…that is how the Republicans think, isn’t it? Suppress the little guy so The Man can get richer on the backs of the little guys.

Republican economics has destroyed what was a great economy. The oppression of the conservative Republicans cannot be overlooked or dismissed. Republicans will do to our nation what the Taliban hasn’t been able to do – destroy it!

I recently walked around a roghly two square miles of my local middle class neighborhood. I counted the autos that people owned, just out of curiosity. Out of 35 total autos, four were made in the USA. 31 autos were made overseas. No matter what you say or how you say it, we Americans have learned that Detroit built autos are not here to stay. It is time to get the employees away from work ethic that destroys human endeavor. Retrain these valuable people to rebuild the infrastucture. They are good at what they do, they really need a different leadership.

Posted by Don Leo | Report as abusive

Benny-

“I respect your tenacity CD. I really do.”
That’s right, I’m American, I never give up.

“You still hang on the idea that if everyone has an equal share in GDP that only the lazy will prosper and that it won’t be “fair” to those that don’t “work”.”

What don’t you get about “If you don’t work, you don’t get paid, If you work, you deserve an honest wage for honest work.”

It seems to me benny that you have never worked an honest day in your life. I worked with my brother in the home insulation business. I have worked in warehouses. I have worked in construction rebuilding fire damaged homes. My dad is a machinist and a Vietnam vet. My Grandfather was a machinist and a WWII vet. His father was a machinist and a tank commander in Africa during WWII, another Great Grandfather of mine was in WWI in France from 1917 to 1919. I have many items from them all to remind me of the sacrifices and the blood Americans have left all over this world to protects its freedoms and liberties.

It doesn’t bother me you keep trying to call me a Communist, I know what I am.
You however, not to sure who you are, or what you stand for, but that is OK to. You know why?
Its a free country, one in which you CAN yell and scream and call people names, work how you want for what you want, or not work at all. America is that free.
I plan to keep her that way, how about you?

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Benny, in your example of a farmer and a CEO, you assume the farmer works harder because he’s out in an air-conditioned tractor working a job where he might get sweaty and dirty.

If running a successful company was easy work, more people would be doing it.

Posted by Drewbie | Report as abusive

Drewbie,

Spending time in an air conditioned tractor isn’t all a farmer does. And if running a business is so difficult then why do they have so many incompetents at the helm? So far the only thing being produced by business, is debt, fear,and poverty. Our current system requires that there be a second class of citizen.

And that is a fatal flaw.

And I suppose I should qualify that last post. I’m not talking about your small community business. I’m talking about the multinationals and Corporate giants that control a major portion of the marketplace.

I have to agree with Willy; the more places around the world I visit, the less I want to come back.

“Chicken and egg” arguments aside, ultimately, the responsibility for the failures being experienced by the Big 3 have to be placed squarely on management (or Capital, if you will). If they let themselves be bullied by unions, they are responsible. If they made bad business decisions, they’re responsible. That’s what comes with the territory; you want the big bucks? You’re on the hook for success or failure. Don’t point to the workers who are reactive by nature. If they react to a police-state type of workplace by industrial sabotage, then I say good for them. Stick it to The Man.

I am curious to know which “right to work” (for less) state is doing so well. I believe I read the poster state that their state had the 15th largest economy in the world?

CD: I think Benny is the one staying above the fray in your back-and-forth and you are the one trying to use names and mischaracterizations to try and goad him into something. After reading your interactions, it seems that you would likely agree with Benny more than you disagree.

Regarding human value: Is work the pinnacle of human existence? In order to be productive, must you “work” or are there other contributions to be made besides “work”?

Posted by CitizenBob | Report as abusive

I have to wonder about something, the way Detroit seemed to run itself into the ground. If you look at it from Big Oil’s perspective, the less MPG per car, the more they make. The more a car can get out of a Gallon, the less money into the pockets of Big Oil.

You have to wonder if Big Oil wasn’t an Influence on these Corporate Execs, who are not stupid people, just greedy. That greed makes them predictable as it is their only motivation. It is simply a matter of Math. Cars with bad MPG puts the most money in Big Oil’s pockets. Cars with Good MPG put less money in Big Oil’s pockets.
If your a Big Oil executive, what are you going to “LOBBY” for?

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Citizen Bob- and willy

“I have to agree with Willy; the more places around the world I visit, the less I want to come back.”

then don’t

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Quote: “I am curious to know which “right to work” (for less) state is doing so well. I believe I read the poster state that their state had the 15th largest economy in the world?

Try Texas, look it up. No. 1 in jobs created in the nation in 2008, no state income tax, 14 BILLION surplus, low taxes,
#1 in exporting state in the union for the 7th year in a row. No. 1 in wind energy for the third year in a row.
In 2006, Texas was home to six of the top 50 companies on the Fortune 500 list and 56 overall, more than any other state. [1] Texas has an economy that was the second largest in the nation and the 15th largest in the world based on GDP (nominal) figures. As the largest exporter of goods in the United States, Texas currently grosses more than $100 billion a year in trade with other nations. “The economic outlook for Texas during 2008 points towards slower growth, yet that’s still better than most parts of the country, which will see no growth at all. Texas, with the 2nd largest state economy in the U.S. and the 15th largest economy in the world, will record growth of about 2.2% annually, according to the Texas Workforce Commission.
Sends more to Washington than it collects.
We’re doing fine, just don’t move here. The mall looks like Los Angeles as it is.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

Willy-

Texas- interesting state.
How easy is it to get all that business when your boy Bush Sr. started in politics in the 70′s. Wonder how many government money got siphoned to Texas like Murtha siphons government money to PA.

Texas claims to be moral
as it breaks their Gods commandment of “Thou shall not kill” as it kills the most prisoners
Texas claims to be moral
and is the state with the most innocent men in jail
Texas has wind only because of Pickens, Energy companies like Duke most certainly didn’t want wind.
Texas sheltered Enron
Texas wishes to leave the union because it can’t have its way, and only its way. Children are like that, or religious zealots.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

CD, I don’t read your drivel any more. Don’t you have some farming to do on you EIGHT acres?? LOL

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

BTW, CD, I was answering the poster who asked. Not you.
If I want you, I’ll ring your bell. Namaste.

Posted by Willy | Report as abusive

CD,

People are discussing the problem of the economy and what things might be done to correct the situation.

So far all you do is spout nonsense to get people sidetracked. Have you lost so much hope in your dream of becoming a writer that you settle for stirring the pot on discussion groups?

Have you nothing to offer but bile and venom? I’ll do your advertising for you.

GO TO THE ADDRESS BELOW. It’s the link CD used to attached to his name when posting. Some of his ideas have merit. But his skill isn’t all it could be.

http://30somthingrepublican.blogspot.com  /

Benny and willy-

I am farming, I am weeding out your bad ideas.
Benny, as for you saying i’m “So far all you do is spout nonsense to get people sidetracked.”

How is saying that people who do honest work should get an honest wage nonsense? Especially when you keep going on and on and on about people sharing in the GDP? What makes America great, the promise of America, is if you work hard and dedicate yourself to something, you can do, or become anything you want.

If you think that is silly, well, it is your right in this great country.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

CD

Am I to understand that you are weeding out our “bad ideas” on a public forum for your own benefit? Or are you saying that you are needed in order to weed out our “bad ideas” for the benefit of the other readers?

If you’re doing it for yourself then why post? And if you’re doing it “for the other readers” then does that mean that you know better than the other readers what constitutes a bad or good idea?

You seem to post the most after people post pieces that contain substance. It’s like you don’t want anyone else to read it so you just post like mad in the hopes that slinging enough crap will cover up the reality of what is being said.

Is this what you’re trying to do?

Benny-
just expressing my right under the first amendment, this just happens to be the forum.

Your posting just as much “Crap” as me, yet you STILL haven’t really stated what your about, except to keep going on and on about equally sharing the GDP, then you moved to an “Open Economy”, or was it back to wealth distribution by automating the Fed? I forget, you keep changing.

I haven’t wavered on my stances of Free Capitalism, which allows people to do whatever it is they wish to do with their money.
Nor have i wavered on my stance of Honest Work deserves an Honest wage.

I simply think “Your Ideas” are bad. I simply offer other ideas.

Your attacking me for expressing my “Ideas” makes me think your a little Totalitarian in your personality. I have never “Attacked” you for your “Ideas”, just offered alternatives in a manner that hope represents myself as Civilized. Instead of not even wanting to “Listen” to you, I listen, then “Debate”.

This is what makes this Country so great, the ability to disagree in a Civilized manner. Even with your current Government.

Can you disagree (in a public forum) with the Governments of China, or Iran, or Al-qaeda, or the Taliban, or Venezuela, or Burma, or even Russia today?

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Benny

I’m just using my right of free speech under the first amendment, this just happens to be the forum.

As for the substance of my posts, i have never wavered in my stance of a Free Capitalist economy, one in which a person can take their wage and spend it in anyway they see fit.
Nor have i wavered on my stance of a Honest Wage for Honest Work.

You, however, have pushed for sharing the GDP, pushed for wealth distribution by automating the FED, and have pushed for a “Open Economy”.

I have never “Attacked” you for your ideas, I simply offer alternative ideas. This is called a Debate.
Some people can do it in a more “Civilized” manner.
Rather like lawyers in Court.
One side expresses its opinion.
The other side retorts.
The readers of these posts are the Judges.
How American is that?

Can you disagree (In a public Forum) with the governments of China, Iran, Burma, Venezuela, or with terrorists?

You seem to have a bit of a Totalitarian in you. “Attacking” a person for simply disagreeing with you, or having a differing opinion is something children do.

What makes America great is the ability people have to express themselves freely. Some just do it in a more civilized manner.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Interesting CD,

I ask you what you are trying to do and if you know whether what you’re doing is right. And your response is that you have a right to do it.

Nice. Weak. But nice.

Benny-

You make me laugh.

Benny said
“I ask you what you are trying to do and if you know whether what you’re doing is right. And your response is that you have a right to do it.”

I’m talking to you, discussing different ideas with you, trying to persuade you that your views of sharing GDP, or automating the FED to distribute wealth, or creating an “Open Economy” are not needed in this great system we already have in place called a “Free Capitalistic” society.

You work for what you get. You should get an Honest Wage for that work. And with that money, you can do whatever it is your heart desires.
The only other point I’m trying to make is that Business has become irresponsible with the economy, with Lobbying to influence laws to benefit them, and only them! Who do you think lobbied for De-regulation of all Businesses that got De-regulated? It most certainly was the people who work, like me and you.

Those who would DIRECTLY benefit from De-regulation are the ones who pushed for the LAWS OF THE LAND to be repealed.
Why were those law in place?
To prevent EXACTLY what is happening to the Global Economy RIGHT NOW!

But if you don’t think I am being clear
and concise
and civilized
and American

then i’m sorry for you and your misunderstanding of what this country was built as, and founded on. Liberty and Freedom of the People. “We the people, for the people.”

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

oops!
“Who do you think lobbied for De-regulation of all Businesses that got De-regulated? It most certainly was the people who work, like me and you.”

It most certainly was NOT the people who work, like me and you.

wouldn’t want you attacking my WRITING, like earlier, instead of offering a real rebuttal to the points i make.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

CD

“The only other point I’m trying to make is that Business has become irresponsible with the economy, with Lobbying to influence laws to benefit them, and only them!”

And the only point I’m making is that if everyone has their own stream of income there would be no way for “business” to be irresponsible with the economy. There would be no way for them to pass laws that benefit only them. Because you would have just as much economic pull as them.

Benny-

And AGAIN i say to you, you work for what you get. You don’t get a “Stream of Income” unless you are WORKING!!

i’ll do this again for you, maybe it will help this time

No work, No Pay
work, get paid.

People deserve and Honest Wage for Honest Work.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Money is not “what you get” for doing good work. What you get is a better quality of life. Money is simply a tool to help you do your work.

And we can dance around this issue all day long CD. You’re still wrong if you think that a resource that is just as important in this economy as air is to life, should be controlled by a few poeple while the rest are left to suffer. Go to the link I posted earlier. It’s on this site. It illustrates the point. The person loosing their home lost their job in this economy.

And by your logic this person now deserves to loose not only his home, but any respect, or consideration as a human being, because he has no money and no one will hire him to do “work”.

And if he’s homeless now then it’s because he didn’t do his part.

But I understand. I’ve read your writing.

You just can’t help it.

Benny, benny , benny-

“Money is not “what you get” for doing good work. What you get is a better quality of life. Money is simply a tool to help you do your work”

What else do you get for your work benny? beads? sticks?
When i was doing insulation, my actually doing the insulation WORK DID NOT better the quality of my life. The MONEY i got for HONEST WORK bettered my life. Because in this Free Capitalist society, i could take that money and go to the pool hall. Or i could build a car, or motorcycle. I could save for retirement, go to school, improve my house, what ever i want with the FREE will i have.

Benny said-
“And if he’s homeless now then it’s because he didn’t do his part.”

REALLY! so all the factory workers at GM and Chrysler, it is ALL THEIR FAULT that Corporate Executives FAILED in their responsibility, IN THEIR WORK, to keep viable in a world economy?

Benny, your still using laughable and illogical strings of thought to back up what ever it is your selling, but after all these posts, i don’t think you really have Americanism, or what it is to be a FREE and HARD WORKING American in your heart.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

CD

Do you have anything by way of a solution to offer? Or are you going to simply tell me that I’m wrong by using the same argument I have already clearly answered several times?

Is that all you’ve got? Really? I can tell you why the idea I bring to the table is a good one. And I can tell you what benefits to expect.

All you’ve got is “it won’t work” that’s pretty much it.

Say something that offers a solution.

Benny-

I have been saying my solution the whole time.
Honest pay for Honest work.

If Businessmen in general(Corporate executives like CFO’s and CEO’s and other members of the Board of Directors, not your local factory manager, or shop manager, but the ones who set the pay rate) had more patriotism, more civic duty, a better sense of that “Republican Responsibility”, more loyalty to country, and their fellow Americans they would pay people more.

If Business followed a “Henry Ford” economic model, we would be much better off.
Ford viewed economics like this; Pay your employee more and you save in employee training(Unlike today with the McDonald’s Fast Food corporate model, make it as simple as possible so you can turn over employee’s faster)
since you instill LOYALTY by paying a person and HONEST WAGE for HONEST WORK, and they stay with the company.
By paying your employee a Honest wage, it instills pride in them, gives them a sense they are worth something, since they are being paid.
When more Middle Class people have a better income, they can spend more, thus, bettering this economy because SPENDING is the lifeblood of this economy.
What does it say about “Business” in general when they know SPENDING is important, but “Business” does not give people the means with which to keep this economy going?

Sort of daft of “Business” not to follow “The Basics of the American Economy”, unless you see that “Business” and “Banks” are more like Communist China in how they keep raising inflation(which increases property prices across this land) and the cost of living(Thanks to Business raising its prices) in an effort to OWN EVERYTHING. In Communist China, China owns all the land, no private property.

What is the FED and the banks that support it trying to do as they raise inflation, thus the cost of homes, while credit is denied to those who don’t make enough, and people don’t make enough because “Business” won’t pay!

Banks and Business are not for America, or private property, or you and me. The actions of Banks and Business prove it. Listen not to the words, actions speak louder than any LIE SCREAMED!

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Nice out of context quote.

“Benny said-
“And if he’s homeless now then it’s because he didn’t do his part.””

Actually I was summing up your logic. After all, you have stated repeatedly, the idea of “no work no money”.

And since this man lost his job and can’t work, he doesn’t deserve any money.

Since he doesn’t deserve money he doesn’t deserve the home he now occupies. Nor does he deserve to be respected or helped financially.

I don’t even have to quote you. It’s all over your other posts. And I’m also pretty much the only one who still answers you. Quite a few people have already denounced your lack of manners and offensive tone. But I don’t think I’ll waste my time replying to you any more. You’re just going to say what you’re going to say. You don’t really want to understand, or offer any solutions, much less do anything about anything. If that makes you happy then I suppose you’re not hurting anyone so no biggie.

You just keep typing away bud. Perhaps there are others here with which discussions might prove more productive.

Benny-

Out of context eh?
Well, how did the guy lose his job? If it is because he didn’t work, then obviously he didn’t pull his weight.

If you lost it because of the Irresponsibility of Bank and Business Executives, is it his fault?

Whose side are you on Benny? Let me go through all your posts just to make sure, but I don’t think there was one post in which you said you were for
Americans
America
Freedom
Liberty
Capitalism
Constitution
or the Ideals of Freedom and Liberty this country is based on.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Remember the German Catholic priest let out of a concentration camp at the end of WWII? After running down the list of “others” who were taken away (who he didn’t defend, since he wasn’t a communist, Jew, Gypsy, etc.,etc.), he took the blame for his own fate, since by the time they came after him, there was nobody left to speak up.

Well…the auto industry and union workers were more than happy to buy imported garbage that ruined every other industry, and now they’re shocked that a generation that sometimes works 2 jobs for a lower standard of living than their father had can’t afford their overpriced cars.

Auto loans went from 2 to 6 and 7 years…exactly when was the simple math going to occur to them, along with the idea that when the rest of the nation has to “compete” with people not paid enough to escape their trap, you no longer have consumers.

And without consumers, business is dead. Now the “cornerstone of capitalism” is holding out its hand for government money and ownership, and the “great UAW” is crying to the textile, steel, (other) manufacturing, air traffic controllers…even computer folks who can’t compete against an Indian making peanuts…to please save them.

We’re in the same sinking ship. Shut up, grab a bucket and help bail.

Posted by Brian Foulkrod | Report as abusive

Brain-

“great UAW” is crying to the textile, steel, (other) manufacturing, air traffic controllers”

What Textile? Even Levi’s Corporate Executives decided to move the production facility overseas.

What (other) manufacturing? Large Multi-nationals bought out almost ALL small machine shops across the country.
The Rust belt contained many of these skilled men and shops. Communist Banks and Businesses can’t have QUALITY here in America, so buy them up, send the work elsewhere, it wont be as good, but it will be cheaper.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

Benny and C.D. — In the spirit of a debating forum, I’m going to ask for your closing arguments. Please address them to the entire audience.

Regards,
Richard Baum
Reuters.com

To any who might have any interest in this:

In the declaration of independence of 1776 it is written,

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”,

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/dec laration.html

Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. If you look around you in this country today, you can see that the promise of this declaration has yet to be fulfilled for every American. Many Americans don’t have much in the way of a life. Many don’t have much in the way of liberty. And many more yet, are so oppressed by the conditions in this country that their only “happiness” lies at the bottom of a bottle, or the end of a needle.

A close examination of the problem shows a common thread. And that thread is money. But not just money itself. The problem comes from the profit motive, which changes money from a medium of exchange to a medium of control.

Just look around you. Read the headlines on this site. You’ll see right away that I write truthfully. Whether the problem is attributed to CDS, credit liquidity, poor regulation, etc….
The problem revolves around money, and quarterly profit reports.

I advocate for the automation of the treasury and federal reserve. The reason is simple. The people who run those bodies come either from wall street or Washington. As a result, they will implement policy that protects their own interests first. The sole job of the treasury/federal reserve is to maintain a consistent supply of money, and to maintain the value of that money. This resource (money) must be kept in limited supply. That’s why simply printing more causes inflation. The accumulation of this limited resource for its own sake is called profit. And when money is constantly drawn from the system to the tune of billions every day, then eventually a deficiency develops.

And if you look around you today, the deficiency is tremendous. And our government has decided to add to the debt in order to “fix” the economy. Now all of this is well understood by many and to a much greater depth I’m sure, than I understand.

But what puzzles me has been the idea that this should some how mean that human beings should suffer because of this. Our money has no real value whatsoever. It’s not even attached to the gold standard. The value of our currency is based on the “good faith and credit of the United States Government”. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have little if any faith left in our government. And our credit is terrible.

But considering that our money is worthless, why not simply divide GDP across the board equally to all adult citizens?

Most of the time the reaction is one of knee-jerk fear or disgust. But if one looks at the free open software movement, one can see that great productivity and innovation flourishes in an environment where access to the building blocks of production are accessible to everyone. Linux started up in the 90′s, well after Microsoft and Apple had become established. And in recent years (the past ten or so), Linux and open source software have become major players in the marketplace despite Microsoft’s efforts to keep them out. Open source and Linux don’t depend on the profit motive, so lack of money is only a side inconvenience because programmers have to have other jobs in order to pay their bills.

Code is not locked down as intellectual property to which no one else has a right. Instead code is shared and given away. This allows young would be programmers to get their hands on real code and create applications that are useful and help them develop their skills free of legal or financial encumbrance.

Open source software is important because it demonstrates that allowing the building blocks of production to be available to all without restrictions, encourages innovation and forward thinking.

In our economy the building block of production is the medium of exchange. If you are unable to exchange resources, you can’t provide for your needs, let alone your wants. In our society money is printed by the government. Our declaration of independence grants us the rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Money is needed in this society in order for any of those things to happen. And since our currency is not attached to a gold standard but is simply printed on government presses and set with an arbitrary value, then that makes the dollar public property. The government is a public body. The money it creates is public property.

Divide GDP amongst the citizens. And this way the gifts and talents of all Americans are given the means to flourish. As of yet I have had no logical arguments that speak to any flaws that can be examined. I have gotten arguments saying that people must work for money. But the idea I bring to the table is a complete departure from this philosophy. Any attempt to understand this idea from the work=money perspective will be impossible.

Yet the very idea I bring forward is applied in our capitalist structure already. It’s called investing. “It takes money to make money”. And so even though the idea I present has been called socialist, it is actually much more individualist and capitalist. It is simply capitalism of a much higher order. Money can’t cure AIDS. But it CAN pay to educate the young mind that will. Money can’t solve the energy crisis. But it CAN finance innovators that have the technological solutions.

Dividing GDP equally actually gives every American a truly equal opportunity to live the American dream of life liberty and pursuit of happiness.

The question should not be one of “should we do this?”, but rather “How do we do this?”

Oh yeah, Union vs management… like Sumo wrestlers? Hmmm, lessseee…

Maybe, if either Sumo were allowed to put the other permanently under the ground. Maybe, if labor under feudal conditions were a sport, instead of a largely one-sided fight for livelihood. And maybe, it might also help if you get the order of business straight – it’s management versus labor, every inch of the way. Has been since the coming of the railroads, and looks like it’s here to stay thus.

Does labor steal management’s pension funds? Does labor decide to short the parts that it takes to make a vehicle safe, or reasonably fuel efficient? Does labor decide the fate of entire cities and states of the Union (no pun, etc)? Does labor determine the degree of financial rigamarole enslaving consumers of the automotive end product? Does labor suck taxpayer bailout money like suicidal fat people slurping super-sized “diet” soda beverages at all-you-can-eat binge-fests?

No, on all counts.

Yes, you can find anecdotal evidence and more of certain unions emulating certain management crookedness. Occasional sabotage here and there seems like a relatively small price to pay in return for litany examples of peonage, marginalization and outright assassination by the other side, not that I’m excusing either one. Please be sure your arguments are no less impartial.

Unions are all labor has in its possibly vain struggle to survive the rigors of rotten management. And sorry should this surprise some readers, but after a century or so of managerially-determined uneven playing field conditions this struggle you are witnessing, or attempting to ignore as the case may be is not liable to become a sporting one any time soon.

Meanwhile, the war on labor by American management is unrelenting. Only the excuses and the excusers of management predation have changed. And not for the better, I may add.

It is important how this crisis is resolved – important enough not to fall into the trap of not being able to see the obvious: that American management at corporate level is on the whole as foul as your average agribusiness pigsty, as poorly monitored, less fragrant and possibly more inhumane.

No amount of anti-labor rhetoric is going to change this, much less solve the problems mismanagers such as one sees in Detroit would have on their conscience. If they had a conscience, that is.

Too big to jail? Al Capone thought he was. Big Three execs seem to think they are. But are they, really? I for one don’t believe they are.

I’d rather watch that than Sumo, any day.

Posted by The Bell | Report as abusive

To all who have read what has been written. Re-read it. Think about it.

To me, Benny, has yet to really put forth a Clear, Concise, and Easily understandable system of economics.

Truth is simple, lies are complicated. You work hard, you deserve an honest pay. If you do not work, you do not deserve to get paid.

In a larger sense of business, is it fair for a small group of men (CFO, CEO, Board of Directors) to reap the most benefits off of their employee’s labor?

You know why the Great Pyramid is the last wonder standing? Who was more important in its building? The Priests, Royalty(Men with money), or even the King -
Or the workers and foremen who left their blood and sweat on every brick?

Besides, was the Pyramid built for Profit? or to show Humanity what can be built by hard work, and some dedication.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Benny-

“The value of our currency is based on the “good faith and credit of the United States Government”. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have little if any faith left in our government. And our credit is terrible.”

The Federal Reserve (which you love so much)which controls Credit and Inflation

IS NOT a part of the government

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

I started on Monday.

Memorial Day

In honor of my Grandfathers, Father, Uncles, Friends, Americans, Those Who Gave All to America, To those who Gave and cannot be Found, and in the Spirit of our Founding Fathers.

I love Our Constitution.
I love Our World
I hope with these poor words
Given Freely with Love

I have helped others to see
That we can do, build, and be
Better than what we are right now.

“and on the seventh day he rested”
Sounds like a good idea
God Bless America

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

I thought long and hard. I re-read Benny’s stuff. I can now see why he thought i was like him. It can seem like I want to just take from the Bankers and Executives and just distribute the money.

Before i rest, i must explain the difference between His and mine, as i suddenly see it.

In a “welfare” system, like Benny poses, one where everyone just gets a “Stream of Wealth” or “Piece of the GDP”, you become a Slave to whoever gives you the “Stream” or “Piece”. Meaning you are a dependent, you depend on them. And once your a dependent; they can do whatever to you they wish.

In My system, my “Working” system, You are a Free man or a Free Woman. Dependent on no one but YOURSELF, your hands, your work. It is a little harder, my way, the “Working” way. But you are Free and Liberated from the demands of others.

Liberty and Freedom are never easy.

Now i can sleep. Sorry Benny.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

One commenter suggests that the problems we face now are due to lack of investment. How? All the leveraging and dubious financial instrument trading of the past 20 years was nothing but “investing”.

The problem may be there are no real opportunities for the ‘dis-invested”. This country had it’s boom days when it was still largely agricultural with a much smaller percentage of industrial activity – prior to the thirties.

It seems to me the enormous pressure on this country will be to lower the cost of labor to match the low cost labor of other developing and more productive countries. We can’t all be engaged in medical billing, or stuff the state and federal bureaucracies with bodies. We can’t all work for school systems.

And the atmosphere of government control over everything will be more pervasive because it is the former communist countries and those still making a transition to free market economies, that will be trying to ensue that there is still a safety net to ensure population stability. I am sure China is terrified of it’s own massive and historically very volatile population. How else did the present regime get there then by violent revolution. When was the least time this country saw a labor riot?

The problem we all have is we can’t escape anymore to the great planes or the wide open west. The problem is we cannot effectively work for ourselves for peanuts and invest in our own homesteads. We don’t raise large families that can work almost at slavery conditions to keep the farm alive. WE cannot easily lower our overhead costs for a deferred better day. The day when those hard worked children inherit the farm – or at least a piece of it.

I also tend to think that education is a false mantra. I have been over-educated for most jobs I ever held or else had the wrong education. And almost no place I ever worked really cared how productive I was. My best paying employment was the least productive. I worked in a service department of a defense industry company and that was practically welfare with a jacket and tie.

Maybe the only solution in the future will be the guaranteed government issued paycheck that can be augmented with employment if that can be found. A “Bread and circuses” economy. Perhaps the near future will require people who can learn how to live on very little and know how to use their leisure. But I doubt it. We will have massive wars first and try to thin the herd.

World War two and the death of about 85 million people is probably what really what ended the Great Depression. We probably aren’t above the rules of the natural world after all. We can overgraze our habitat, so to speak, unless we can find more. And the oceans still sit there slowly turning into a garbage can. There is 75% of the earth’s surface waiting to be occupied. Why waste so much energy and billions of pounds of natural resources building vehicles with built in obsolescence or stick built square miles of rotting and burnable housing that can’t stand even a few weeks of abandonment when we could be building floating cities for a more relaxed and less consumer driven lifestyle.

How much money should one make? Or how hard should one expect to work to be able to claim one is making a decent living? It seems that what we really need is a way of life not driven by consumption. An economy driven by the production of long lasting assets and durable goods would provide an affordable life without the need to replace the same things over and over again.

I could damn the computer manufacture that sent me an update that disabled my ability to system restore. They want my four year old machine to become useless so I am forced to get a new one when I have no real need for a newer or much larger or much faster computer. Or automobile with computer chips programmed to die when the manufacturer feels it is time for me to spend more money on transportation.

We live in a clumsy, stupid and archaic economic system with no real clear priorities and too much interest in fashion driven manias.

Posted by paul rosa | Report as abusive

“It seems to me the enormous pressure on this country will be to lower the cost of labor to match the low cost labor of other developing and more productive countries”

Why don’t industrialized countries like England, France, USA, Germany, and Other EU and NATO countries say F U to China and other slave labor countries and start making stuff for themselves.

That way, NATO, EU, maybe even India and Russia can keep the price of labor at a level you can live at, instead of Letting China use SLAVES to undermine Free and Liberated peoples economies and societies.

Nixon goes to China in the 70′s, and slowly China, like an evil octopus undermines all of the free worlds economies, thus the free worlds society because it undermines peoples pay, undermines the quality of life.

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

The wicked never rest, guess i can’t either.

Paul-

“It seems to me the enormous pressure on this country will be to lower the cost of labor to match the low cost labor of other developing and more productive countries.”

China is follow America’s manufacturing blueprint from the 50′s and 60′s, but instead of using their wealth to better the lives of their people, Communist China is using their SLAVES(people) to undermine ALL ECONOMIES of the world.

Since we are dependent on Communist China for almost all of our manufacturing, we are slaves to them, and they are using the money we send to them, to buy our debt.
OWNING US in a way.

And our Fed and Banks, even “Businesses” that depend on Communist CHINA for products are helping them OWN US by raising the cost of our homes, the cost of living, the cost of credit, the cost of ANYTHING keeps going up as AMERICANS are being paid less and less, if they can even get a job.

Wake up people, Communist China is buying America, It already owns our BANKS and BUSINESS. Don’t listen to the words, look at their actions.

Why did we start doing business with the enemy? When did it start to happen? Nixon went to China in the early 70′s for what? Republicans ALWAYS back the BANKS and BUSINESS for what reason?

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

International Banks (IMF & WTO) USE words like “Protectionism” so they can keep using CHINA and other SLAVE labor countries to keep undermining EVERY NATIONS economy. When other NATIONS economies are wrecked, they (IMF &WTO) can them come in with money and products from CHINA to “Save” the economies they wrecked.

When you(or a nation) depend on another, you become a Slave to them. Welcome to the new war folks. MONEY, MANUFACTURING, PRODUCTION, and economic PROPAGANDA are the new weapons. COMMUNIST CHINA and the IMF and WTO are out to own everything by undermining the World Economy.

If I’m wrong, prove to me the actions of CHINA and the IMF and WTO are not doing what I say they are doing.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

NATO, her ALLIES, and other Nations that wish to stay FREE simply need to become “Self Dependent”, meaning we depend on NO ONE, NO COMMUNIST NATION for what we can make ourselves.

We, America, EU, NATO, and other Nations can simply band together for form an economic block of Freedom. We can set our own prices for pay, set up a truly free capitalistic society not based on EXTORTING and PROFIT, but based on Liberty and Freedom.

That Liberty and Freedom can be achieved! We just need to disengage from letting our ENEMIES make products for us. WE CAN MAKE OUR OWN!

IMF & WTO & CHINA use words like “More Productive” to fool you into giving them business, which they use to undermine what little economy we have left, and it matters not if it is in America, or France, England, or Germany they use those “Phrases” and “Lingo” to trick, deceive, and fool the masses.

We need to sift out these double-crossing economic SPIES and FREE ourselves from CHINA IMF WTO before it is too late and THEY DO OWN EVERYTHING.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Does no one find it an amazing coincidence that we are in Iraq and Afghanistan on some seriously SHADY intel, basically lied to by Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, and Gramm?

Republicans so far gone to Business. Look at all their connections to “Business” since the 70′s, since Nixon went to China.

Could they have PURPOSELY started a war in that part of the world, The part of the world where the IMF & WTO & CHINA have the least amount of Influence?

CHINA was the first to invent Gunpowder and Guns. Sun Tzu wrote “The Art of War” 2400 years ago. CHINA can not beat us Militarily, but by buying certain Republicans, and working slowly, bit by bit for 40 years, they have almost BOUGHT the whole of America and other Industialized Nations.

9/11 could have been a CHINA plot, throw blame to Arabs, Use the Republicans they have in office to “FORCE” a war in the area. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gramm, Rove, all made HOW MUCH through KBR, and Haliburton?

The economic conditions right after 9/11 allowed the FED and its supporting banks to do what? Allowed Big OIL to do what? The Bush administration relaxed how many Regulations, that led to “BANKS” and “Business” to grab how much private property?

We are at war my Friends and Allies, Know your enemy!

How many America Soldiers have died for WHOM! and WHY!?!

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

And NOW, you know why Cheney and his administration allowed TORTURE. Under torture a person will say anything.
Throw blame where ever, on who ever, for whatever reason.
Waterboarded 83 times? After that “I” might even say I MASTERMINDED the whole 9/11 attack.

Think about it for yourself.

Is China(Look how they treat their own people, and Tibet) capable and will to try and enslave the whole world?

Do you think Cheney is the kind of person who seeks that kind of control over another human being?

Do you think Cheney has friends like him? I do.

You decide.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Folks,

You have to ask yourself a fundamental question.

What kind of person does it take to control a “Multinational” corporation?

How did a person even Gain Control in the CUT THROAT world or Upper Executive Management?

Most of the Fortune 100 make more money than most countries.

So what does Cheney do as soon as he gains office? As soon as he gains control of the largets Military in the World?

Create a situation where his Haliburton and KBR get NO BID contracts worth BILLIONS? Big OIL is in for sure! Once in under Military Protection, Hmmmmmm, Almost Free OIL! that they can sell to us for how much?

Need Arabian contacts? ISRAEL has those, and most definately could use a Islamic Rising to their advantage to grab more Palestinian land.

The truth will set you free.

Maybe the 4 horseman of the apocalypse really is

Cheney War
Rumsfeld Pestilance (G.D. Searle- How did it pass FDA?)
Rove Lies and Deceit
Gramm Money Greed (Whatdid he have with Houseing)

It fits to me if you just look at these people in POWER who wish to CONTROL who are full of GREED and DID NOT get to where they were by living with LOVE!

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

In my book, “Going Up Through The Looking Glass”
on deviantart.com, FOR FREE

I say that God whispers his love to everyone.
The devil twists his words with greed, lust, pride, hate.

I can hear without the devil yelling.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

How else did a small town midwest farmer with only a high school education saw this at only 31?

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

My Friends and Allies,

Where is Osama Bin Ladin? My Father told me of the cunning tunnels Mr. Charlie conceived. Do you not think China has done the same? How close is the Chinese border to Afghanistan? How easy would it have been for Osama to slip over, or in this case Under, the Chinese border into that country?

Our Military can not enter without war? Don’t the Terrorists use Communist AK-47′s? Who has been funding Osama and his networks?

Who has the most to gain from a collapsing American Economy, and a tired Military that has been LIED TO, USED, and ABUSED. China is building it Navy? Why? Invasion?!

If we are poor, broke, tired, and Weary of a needless war in the Middle East, and a burnt our economy, who has the most to gain?

CHINA

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Friends,

I do not wish revenge, that would be more needless war.
I am not inconsistent with my Love. We need to start bringing our Soldiers home, they have been used enough.

We need to help each other. What have our Soldiers been doing? Building Infrastructure? Trying to Keep Peace. What do we need here at home? Time is nothing, Timing is everything.

If you want to throw the first punch, any enemy of mine.
I’ll finish this fight.
But isn’t peace easier on your soul?

And the Whole World?
Why fight each other
Lets rebuild together

Those responsible
Justice under the Law
Not revenge, lets not demean ourselves
Justice. Fairness.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness through
Love and some Responsibility

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

If anyone thinks this is a bad idea, please, by all means tell my why and i would Love to discuss it civilly.

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

My eyes my eyes
my double crossing spies
Are they wise these blue-gray eyes?
This child of compromise?
After the LAST civil war there was a Promise.
That no matter how dark the hour
No Soldier, Sailor, or Civilian
Any One with AMERICAN blood in them
We will not harm our own
No matter What
United WE Stand
divided WE fall

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

A little about me

I remember the first time i heard The Band with Dave Mathews. (So sorry guys) I was sitting in engineering in School there in Virginia.

Changed my life. What could I do with LOVE?

I also beat the first Zelda with my NES. Found Every Heart with out cheating. Know how? Methodically bombed every nook and cranny.

I want love. But i will not be a slave or a Forced Dependent to no Man or Corporation. Nor will i wish it for any people.

I’m telling you, LOVE is the only way to “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

Posted by C. D. Walker | Report as abusive

In the scenario i’ve laid out, you know what the amazing thing is? It all can be attributed to some really bad decision by Upper Management.

Peace is easy when both sides come to the table wishing it.

Isn’t that right Israel? All of Judea is not to blame for the wishes of so few. Chosen of God? What PROOF do you have of your GODLY actions?

Enough blood has fallen in Jerusalem, and Afghanistan, Pakistan.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

Let me list all the ideas

Turn as many Empty Factories in Every State of the Union into Greenhouses that catch as much water, sun, and energy
to be as self sufficient as possible. They can be oasis’s of Food, Heat, Shelter with Structure as Homes around these Depressed areas are Rebuilt. Plus, We would not be so dependent on food being shipped, less gas used, less pollutants.

By placing just One Solar Panel and One Wind Generator with a new Battery (A large one they will use in Electric cars) The Jobs created to make the Panels, Generators, and Batteries will be an Immediate help to our economy. The Instillation will create Jobs.
Homes that can Produce their Own energy will Lessen OUR need for Fossil Fuels across this country. This will put less pollutants in the air, as well as lessening the demand for MORE power-plants. Our National security as well as Security for the Population will increase since homes can produce their own Energy in Emergencies.

Creating a Magnetic Train system(Like Europe, but MUCH better) will lessen the amount of OIL needed for air travel since the train,Using Solar panels ALL ALONG the tracks, with wind catchers to catch the trains passing wind and mother nature, should help power itself, making it cheaper to operate, making it cheaper to travel! If we connect ALL State Capitals, Major Cities, Universities, and Casino’s how easy would it be to see OUR COUNTRY in all her Glory?
Small Business thrives on tourists!

Casino’s have always been hubs of underworld activities like Prostitution, Drugs, and Money Laundering. Why should we let Gambling make Millionaires and Billionaires out of Mafia Types, who wish to make money on our vices, when we can take that money and create a Free Health Care System. How much can we save when we CUT OUT ALL HEALTH INSURERS, who don’t care about your health, only THEIR PROFIT! Doctors pay would not be affected since Skill and Ability in that field always rise to the top. Malpractice would be rethought, since Insurers are not involved. How much better could Health Care in general be when we take out the PROFIT motive, and focus on Healing and Caring for the Ill, not making as much as possible off of them.

Where is all the State Lotto money going? I thought it was supposed to go towards Schools? YET School budgets get slashed every year while the money spent on Lotto’s keep going UP? This needs to be looked into, this discrepancy in BUDGETS.

Where is could the money come from to start these projects? How much has been spent to bailout “BANKS” and those who have been ripping us off? These people made how many BILLIONS off of the Public, you and me, NOW they get more BILLIONS to rescue them from THEIR MISTAKES, and HAVE YET to start letting the “CREDIT” flow?

Big Oil has been “Speculating”, “Price Fixing”, and engaged in “Anti-Competition” practices for HOW LONG? When was the last time you saw a “Gas Price War” from your Local Gas Stations? I’m not saying Nationalize, but why don’t we Freeze some of the Accounts of Leaders, go through these Oil Company Patents and see if they have BOUGHT technology that would improve Gas Mileage. Remember, Big Oil makes money PER GALLON, so the lower MPG your car gets, the better for them, and they have how many BILLIONS to LOBBY Congress? No wonder America’s MPG Standard is the Lowest in the World.

It is only a subtle shift in Thinking. Instead of PROFIT and CONTROL being the Focus of our Economy, we need to Make our Economy Strong, Steady, and Reliable by Building it to be that way. We just need to change LEADERSHIP at some places atop these TOO LARGE MULTINATIONALS, who do not care about the individual, region, or Nation, they only care about them, theirs, and their Bottom Line.

Posted by C.D. Walker | Report as abusive

I work for the US Postal Service…the environment you describe is alive and well at USPS…

Posted by R. Hughes | Report as abusive

I have been constantly of auto industries alarming downtrend in U.S.A. market.
Here, in India, we also faced problems of over production,rate of loan interest was high,some sudden job losses in major IT and manufacturing sectors.
But auto market starts giving some less prices,Governments new economic,verdict on stable government formation,appreciable insulated banking policies have started showing sales in this sector.
In USA,we have to wait and watch economic stimulants to show results.
Hope for the best.

Posted by krishnamurthi ramachandran | Report as abusive