Auto plant wars sparked decline of industry
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– Robert J. Dewar is a former Ford Motor Company general foreman and author of A Savage Factory: An Eyewitness Account of the Auto Industry’s Self-Destruction. He currently lives in Cincinnati, OH and runs a successful packaging business with his wife and family. The views expressed are his own. –
The war in the auto plants never ended. It flared up and died down, but it never ceased. Management and labor circle each other like sumo wrestlers searching for an opening. Like any war, it ignores honesty, human dignity and common sense. Like any conflict, it leaves collateral damage.
As a supervisor at Ford Motor Company’s largest transmission plant, I fought on the front lines. Despite leaving the auto company many years ago, the factory skirmishes were a key factor in the industry’s disastrous decline in the 1980s, and likely continue to play a part in the failures of the industry today.
The factory foremen had one big gun: Form 4600. It was the stepwise disciplinary tool that could take an employee up the punitive ladder to termination. Many supervisors rose in the management ranks not because of job performance, but by virtue of their 4600 tally. The auto industry rewarded tyrants rather than qualified managers with integrity and an ability to successfully lead.
The UAW arsenal easily outgunned management. Production was sabotaged. Critical employees were absent when high production was most needed. Tools mysteriously disappeared. Bad quality was run purposely. The weakest, least desirable employees were protected with the full power of the labor contract. When management and the UAW stood eyeball to eyeball, management always backed down – they had too – productivity and profitability hung in the balance.
The Ford factory was operated by two warring gangs. Clearly, this business model is doomed for failure.
The spark that ignites the factory battles is ever changing, but the underlying philosophy “us against them” remains the same. Foremen lead by oppression, intentionally making the work environment as uncomfortable as possible for the hourly employees. They justify these conditions with high salary. The UAW fights back the only way they can – production sabotage.
My time in the trenches still haunts me. One particular occasion I was assigned the task of scrutinizing a single employee’s every move for an entire eight hour shift. My only assignment was to nail him with something, anything, by the end of the day. The orders were clear. At the end of the shift someone would lose their job – it would either be him or me. What good was a supervisor who could not nail one single employee after observing him for eight hours?
Like a voyeuristic watchdog I was expected to follow the man to the rest room, noting how long he took to relieve himself, hand count and record his hourly output, follow his every move…
One employee brought his snub nose .38 to work with the explicit intention of murdering me. Fortunately he was so drunk that he left the gun under the seat of his car, and fell into a drunken stupor at his work station. The UAW saved his job despite repeatedly showing up for work intoxicated.
There were the regular bathroom sweeps – teams of supervisors and security guards periodically raided restrooms to ensure nobody was resting. Anyone caught not standing at a urinal or sitting on a commode was slapped with a 4600 disciplinary form.
The Coffee Pot War during the midnight shift was particularly noteworthy. Management confiscated and held hostage the only coffee pot available to the hourly employees, reportedly because they were taking too many breaks. This ill-conceived plan was designed to punish the workers and increase productivity. Things quickly turned sour. Machines stopped running properly. Production dropped. A critical tool that was needed for all the machines went missing. Squads of supervisors and security guards raided lockers, searched cars in the parking lot, and overturned trash cans. Foremen and UAW committeemen screamed in each others faces. Production came to a standstill. The critical tool could not be found.
The Coffee Pot War raged for days. Bleary eyed supervisors, fighting fatigue, faced the possible shutdown of assembly plants in four states because they were running out of transmissions. The foreman of that department had a nervous breakdown, and was carried out of the plant by mental health workers. In desperation, management returned the coffee pot. Within a few hours the missing tool showed up as mysteriously as it had disappeared. Production returned to a normal level.
These never-ending battles on the factory floor ushered in the quality control nightmare of the 1970s that caused 33 states to pass “Lemon Laws” designed to protect American car buyers from the Big Three. The wars destroyed confidence and trust in American built cars, which marked the beginning of the end of the U.S. auto industry. It opened the door for smaller, weaker, less experienced foreign auto companies to come to our shores and beat us at our own game. The wars drove the final nail in the coffin of Detroit.
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Well I remember my union days. Always the cry, “Equal pay for equal work.” I always asked, “Are you willing to give equal work for equal pay?” An American tragedy. Neither anarchy nor socialism works.
http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/
Chris-
If cash is king, why is Americas economy based on credit?
I’ll tell you why.
Those who give credit(banks and creditors) own whatever it is you buy, because they(Federal Reserve) have raised inflation, thus the value of everything, out of the reach of the average worker. As they keep raising the cost of living, this Economy of Greed does not raise the wage it pays to those who DO ALL THE REAL WORK!
To live in America in any kind of comfort, you have to be in debt to your eyes, just to own a house or a car! or even to pay for college, which “MIGHT” enable you to achieve a better job, maybe if Business is higher in America.
Creditors own everything you buy with credit, then keep the wages low as they (Fed and International Banks) raise inflation so you can’t afford anything without coming to them for credit. A perfect perpetual cycle in which Creditors reap the most profits while allowing the public to actually own anything.
Banks are acting like Communist countries as they continually try to take away what makes America great, the ability of the average American to own land, or private property.
http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/
Oops!
A perfect perpetual cycle in which Creditors reap the most profits while allowing the public to actually own anything.
should have put “while NOT allowing the public to actually own anything.”
The natural tension between management and labor clearly was allowed to rage out of control in Mr. Dewar’s examples. Some have posted comments suggesting that the relationship is better now than in the past. Maybe both sides are realizing they are in it together. Nevertheless, while subverting each other during the 1980s and 1990′s labor and management sent otherwise loyal customers to foreign nameplates – in droves – and they will never get them back.
It’s over!
These continuing polarizing discussions with the quintessentially defined age old nemesis “Us vs. them”, Management vs. Employee and/or Bourgeoisie vs. Proletariat serve no purpose at all.
The freight train is in motion and the entertia is too great to stop. Only on TV spider man can stop a run-away freight train. In real life politics, President Obama fills us with feel good rhetoric but real lasting change is too late to implement. Fact is, for what is left of the US economy and its sovereign citizens is bought and sold on the steps of congress every day. And the sellers are foreign and now a day, the buyers are out or touch career politicians who are equally as foreign to the blight of the average American.
Only Ross Perot has the foresight to see that once you open the doors of unequal trade imbalance, that we can all stand at the boarder and listen to the sucking sound. And with it went our prosperity. And with it, went our way of life. And with it, went the possibility of the American Dream for the masses.
Don’t be a fool. Don’t let the big business owned and operated media continue to polarize you on these issues, while like birds of prey, we hopelessly are embraced in a free fall towards the earth, clinging to our misconceived ideals, while all the meanwhile our nest are being robbed and raided by multinational lobbyist who could care less about the American way of life.
Now, with no tariffs to protect our markets and unequal trade practices which give foreign competition every advantage, truly owned and operated US firms have all but ceased to exist.
You have become slaves. Do you want to go out fighting each other?
Wake up. Be prudent. Stand back and take a look at a larger picture. Remember to always follow the money.
Who stands to gain from actions in Congress? Don’t kid yourself. You have been played fro a chump and you think because you get to participate in the great character debate every 4 years that you actually have a voice. It’s over. You can not compete any longer. The playing field is irreparably unequal. And you have turned on yourself and devour one another.
Get a clue! A house divided can not stand.
Quote Anubis: The auto plant wars are an extension of class warfare in this country. Such practices occur in non union manufacturing industries and businesses as well.
Apparently you failed to read my post on a non-union state. We’re doing fine, also we have no state income tax, and our 1/2 cent addition to our state and city tax pays for road and street construction before it is started usually. Our state legislature only meets for a maximum of 140 days every two years, which is still too much. Keep the unions and government out of business and you too will do great.
Let’s face the facts that if were not for greed a lot of companies would be better off. It does not matter if you are talking of greed at the top middle or bottom. It could be the company or the stock holders or the workers. The good old USA as we knew it will never be again and the question becomes how far down we are going? How fast and were is the bottom? I have worked as union and as non-union during strikes and as management/owner. All could have a good life with plenty but, greed kills the possibilities all to often. This is where we are different than other countries. We alow for greed to go unchecked until it is like a full blown cancer and death is eminent. Will we change? It is hard to believe it will happen for the better. So the real question is what are you doing to make this all work out better to create a better USA?
CD, you really don’t read these posts do you?
If you wish, read this carefully. And if you wish to address my arguments on the merits I’d be happy to discuss. I know your heart is in the right place CD. I know you want a working solution just like anyone else. All I’m doing is offering an alternative that addresses the issues.
“By your argument, you are saying that Corporate management is so bad in its business model and execution that they default to the wisdom of the Unions?”
If you take a look at my previous post you’ll notice I said that every single participant is at fault.
“Making Money is involved, so Psychologists got involved and monitored the interactions of different personality types in the Roles of Manager, and Worker.”
Profit motive inhibits human progress in one very important way. It sets up an environment of default exclusion.
In other words, the only way to be a member of society is to have money. So, your character, your ability, your potential individual contributions count for nothing. Without money, you will simply live in the street. You will be regarded as human refuse if you are regarded at all.
Most people, if they knew that it wouldn’t hurt/diminish their capacity to act in some way, would be only too happy to help another person in need. If you needed a couple of dollars and it wouldn’t hurt me any to do it, I’d be glad to give you the money if it would help you.
And indeed, helping each other and teaching each other, is what we do under normal circumstances. Consider the three great religions of our time. Do you think that if copy right laws and intellectual property existed back then, that anyone would know about them today? Probably not. Jesus preached freely to the people because he cared more about us than about money. He could have made a good living as a carpenter. But he valued humanity more than money. During the sermon on the mount Jesus taught openly and not for money. He fed them from the bulk of his blessing. He didn’t sell them food.
Neither Abraham, nor Mohamed demanded royalties on their teachings. It was exactly because this knowledge was freely given and distributed, that so many great religious scholars, leaders, and innovators have risen over the centuries and contributed so much to our modern way of life. Many mistakes were made and have yet to be made. But the process will always continue because there are no restrictions on this knowledge in general.
Profit motive on the other hand, dictates that there is a price for everything, and nothing is given or received unless the price is paid. So you can’t get decent medical care. You can’t get the best educational options available. And you can’t even eat, if you don’t have any money. In this setup the only way to help your fellow is to give up some the limited resource you have so that your fellow can exchange it for some of their needs. If your means are limited this can be a problem. Because even though you naturally want to help, you can’t. And so you alienate yourself from your own sense of compassion. And as a society we get colder. Now when we see a starving child on a late night commercial, most of us will just change the channel. Who has any money to give to them? We’ve got our own problems right here. Right?
When every individual American citizen has an equal share of GDP, then each individual citizen will actually count. And economic interests will be directed by design towards the development of human potential.
And to those that think this is a foolish idea, I would remind you that you actually think your “money” is worth something. It’s only value lies in the “good faith and credit of the American government”. Good luck cashing that in for it’s actual worth.
Is it more foolish to let everyone have an equal share of this fake money? Or is it more foolish to allow someone else to dangle paycheck in front of you to get you to jump through hoops eight hours a day?
Lots of back and forth on this article. Only when the union is required to assure the integrity of their workers and management sets a reasonable level of production will the industry thrive. As for the conflict between the union and management, what do you expect. All we see on TV and read in the newspapers paints a world in conflict and yelling. We are trained from little on that conflict is the only way to resolve differences. WELL, IT IS NOT. It is a poor way, at best, to work out differences between people. Just like yelling at your children will not work, so yelling and scrapping between the union and management will not work.
Willy-
getting government out of business(deregulating) really worked well for America didn’t it? (I look at the state of the economy) Who is going to keep business following the rules? Government is supposed to keep the population obeying the laws of this society, but not those in business? Who is going to make sure Business follows the ideal, principles, and laws of Liberty and Freedom that makes this country great? They sure do have a great track record for keeping themselves in check don’t they?
Benny said
“Profit motive inhibits human progress in one very important way. It sets up an environment of default exclusion.”
Well no kidding! Rich get their profits by extorting it out of those that work!
Then you go on about how everyone should get a piece of the GDP! What side are you on?
If you work, you should earn a wage, if you don’t work, you don’t get a wage!
You seem to try and distort the topic every time with an avalanche of words that contradict themselves!
I’m saying Business is out for themselves. Their bottom line is about making money off the people any way they can. All I am saying is that the government(of the people, by the people) is the only entity with the power to keep Business obeying the rules this society has put in place with the blood we have bleed.
Businessmen(Large Corporate Executives), Bankers, Lawyers, Commodity Traders, and Financiers make up only a SMALL part of this great American Capitalistic Society.
So how come this SMALL part of society is allowed to run amok with the economy without any fear of facing the consequences of wrong doing? Who ruined the economy?
The small group getting government bailout money for the worst business decisions in the history of Wall St. (still no indictments by the way) or the worker in a factory, Union or not?
How can we call ourselves a Free and Liberated Society when we allow a SMALL part of that society to disregard the laws that everyone is accountable to?
Andrew Jackson’s presidency saw a similar situation with banks using unregulated speculated credit to buy land.
The great depression was caused by Wall St. buying stocks on credit in an unregulated system.
Todays economic woes are directly related to credit swaps in a COMPLETELY unregulated economy.
Any one else see a pattern of behavior by these greedy selfish souls?
Fool me once, shame on you
fool me twice, shame on me
Lets not let the greedy fool us again.
After years of working in union shops the one thing that stood out was the Unions were run and protected by the laziest thug in the shop. Good workers were threatened to perform no better than what they were told by the Shop Steward. Management on the other hand had to compete with this and try to get product out the door. No one ever thought that their names were on the procuct. In all cases everyone forgot the most important facet of the problem…THE CUSTOMER.
Then I managed from VP to President companies that were not unionized. You spoke to the people and explained the good and bad of the task ahead as well as the reward if accomplished to the Customers Satisfaction.
Yes they did not make the high wages of the union shop, but neither did they have to pay some Goon who lived better than they did.
Honestly the word PRIDE was what made these operations work and to this day they are still in business making a profit and paying their employees a very good salary.
When the MOB says pay me for protection, they go to jail.
When the Union says the same thing….it’s OK??
CD, don’t look now but you say one thing and then you espouse the exact opposite.
Is your “little red book” lost??
CD,
Thank you. I now understand where the confusion seems to be coming in. I am in complete favor of maintaining our democratically elected republic. The reason I suggest that all Americans must share equally in GDP is because unlike you, I don’t believe that anyone should be required to earn anything that has no worth in and of itself.
Our money is worthless paper. But we use it to buy stuff. So let’s let our computers do what they do best and crunch numbers. Automate the treasury and federal reserve so that they carry out their responsibilities free of corporate and government influence.
Prioritize every citizen to be of equal priority and distribute this fake wealth equally across the population.
Money is not something to be earned. Respect is something to be earned. Skill and responsibility are to be earned. Money is just a tool. And nothing more.
Put it in its place and allow it serve all of us as it was intended.
Quote CD: “Who is going to make sure Business follows the ideal, principles, and laws of Liberty and Freedom that makes this country great?
Forget it CD. This country has been on the downhill run for years. I travel a lot in Europe,and you and many are laboring under a great mistake if you think this land is now the greatest. We’re so far behind in health, productivity, education, infrastructure, mass transit, ecomomy, longevity, etc. that it is pitiful. I almost laugh to keep from crying to see what our great country has become, when I return to it. We are not far from a third world country. Sad but true, and if you don’t believe it, get off the farm and travel a bit.
Simple. Bought a 1981 ford it was a piece crape. Just
bought 2009 ford nice car. Maybe they are waking up.
Benny
Im sorry, you really seem to be dense.
You work, meaning you are contributing in some way to this society we call America. You don’t work means you are not contributing and do not deserve anything.
You sound like a Communist, meaning distributing the wealth via some computerized method to set up equality amongst this society.
Here is a reality check for you, People are only equal in their individuality, their soul, their thoughts, and the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.
Hers is another reality for you- People are different. Not everyone is a Quarterback. Not everyone is intelligent enough to become a doctor. Not everyone is willing to work, or train, or learn, or dedicate themselves to something with the same intensity.
This is what makes America’s Capitalism great! You work at what you want, what makes you happy, what you decide to train for, and achieve. Money is the means of exchange. With the money you earn, at whatever it is you wish to work at with the Liberty and Freedom that is your promised right, you can spend your money on whatever! You like wine, Wine Conissuer! You like Cars! Car collector! If you work just to pay the bills while you write, your free to do it.
tell me clearly what you stand for, and whose side your on.
Willy-
Im sorry you lost faith in America.
I have not.
We are the greatest, no matter what you think.
All we have to do is work, rebuild, rethink, retool.
The Founding Fathers of this great country were outnumbered, had hardly any resources, money, food, and weapons. Washington seemed to be our only competent general at times as this small fragmented colony reared up a tiny fist to defy the Largest Empire the world has seen up to that point.
No matter how dark it may seem, nothing, absolutely nothing will ever make be feel that this is not the greatest county, greatest nation, greatest society in the history of mankind.
http://chrisdwalker.deviantart.com/
I have to do some work on the farm my grandfather built with his own two hands with only the help of his wife and kids.
My straw just arrived and i got earn my food.
8 acres and freedom. Just trying to be what Thomas Jefferson envisioned, a self sufficient country of workers and farmers, free from the trappings of Business and the inconsistent Dogma of Religion.
CD,
“Here is a reality check for you, People are only equal in their individuality, their soul, their thoughts, and the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.”
And being that these things are far superior to money, then why are we wasting time trying to “earn” money? What we should be focusing on is teaching our citizens and developing our human base so that we CAN all be productive members of society according to our gifts and talents.
Reality check for you CD, when you are dead, the money you worked so hard for will be spent by someone else. What matters is the mark you make in the world. Money is only a tool. And as long as you believe that human beings should be forced to earn their existence, then you are no better than the businesses you hate.
Quote CD : “We are the greatest, no matter what you think.
All we have to do is work, rebuild, rethink, retool.”
CD, I know what you are saying, but therein lies the problem. A big percentage of our young and middle aged people no longer have the work, rebuild, rethink retool ethic. The want to start at the top. If you want to know the truth, we are basically now a nation of slobs! I asked a friend in Germany if they had someone cleaning the highways all of the time, because they are spotlessly clean. The answer: “No, why would you pay throw out trash that you would have to pay someone else to pick up” That thinking is gone is the US. Sad but true.
Quote CD: “No matter how dark it may seem, nothing, absolutely nothing will ever make be feel that this is not the greatest county, greatest nation, greatest society in the history of mankind.”
Well then, it is of no use talking to you. Keep an open mind and take off the rose colored glasses. You would do much more good to help to improve the present state than to imagine that it doesn’t exist. BTW, I have you beat. I have 35 acres, and work just as hard as you.
Think about the mess we’re in as consumers. First we got those stimulus checks. We saved and paid down our debt. But government and business didn’t like that. If you got yourself out of debt then there would be no way to strike fear into you and get you to beg the powers that be to make it right.
So instead, the government gave over seven hundred billion tax dollars to the banks directly. Now think about this. The government gave the money that it took out of your pocket in exchange for the work that you do, and gave that money to wall street.
If your money has gone to fixing the economy then why do you still owe money on your house? Why do you still have bank debt?
Collectively “OUR MONEY” went to “fix the economy”. So why is business still holding consumers responsible for their debt even after taking their money? The Bank of America, JP Morgan etc.. took billions in tax dollars to stay alive. So why are you still being held accountable for your mortgage?
On the one hand Government pulls money out of your pocket before you even get to see it.And then gives it to the business sector. The business sector says thanks and pockets your money. And then expects you to also pay your “debt”. As if they’d even be around to ask for it if you hadn’t given up your money to begin with.
I should perhaps qualify that last post as being an example of how money is being diverted from its main purpose and used instead as an instrument of fear, uncertainty, and control.
Willy
So just because you a little more land than me your better?
That is the mentality of Wall St., Bankers, Faninciers, ect. but they have money.
Benny
again you keep twisting and twisting words trying to make them meet what ever it is your trying to say.
Truth is very simple.
Can you tell me what you stand for very simply?
with easy words for all to understand?
without trying to talk like a lawyer
or a banker
or a swindler
Willy-
Did you stop to think that we are in the perfect situation to create the right mentality in America? The retool, rethink, get back to work mentality it will take to make this place respectable again.
You don’t want to work, hey, your choice, your freewill, you just wont get paid for nothing.
You want to work, rebuild this country so we can have pride in her again, you deserve to paid for that work, a paycheck with which you can save, or spend on anything your heart desires in this free capitalistic society that offers so much.
Who is standing in the way of America rebuilding? Because if they are, are they really American?
Benny-
just re-read your
“Reality check for you CD, when you are dead, the money you worked so hard for will be spent by someone else. What matters is the mark you make in the world. Money is only a tool. And as long as you believe that human beings should be forced to earn their existence, then you are no better than the businesses you hate.”
Do we, or do we not have to earn our existence by growing the food we eat, supplying the water we drink, and building the homes we live in?
God makes us work for our food, who am i to say hes wrong. Its just the farm mentality, work for what you eat, work for your pleasures, and find peace in your land.
Quote CD: “Willy
So just because you a little more land than me your better?
That is the mentality of Wall St., Bankers, Faninciers, ect. but they have money.”
Give it up, CD, you are a nut case. I was just making conversation, since you were posting about your 8 acres left by your grandfather. Big Deal. Why didn’t you work for that 8 acres??
Don’t address me again, all right. I don’t have the time or inclination to waste with a communist sympathizer. And wheter you realize it or not, that is what you are!
Still trying CD?
“Do we, or do we not have to earn our existence by growing the food we eat, supplying the water we drink, and building the homes we live in?
God makes us work for our food, who am i to say hes wrong. Its just the farm mentality, work for what you eat, work for your pleasures, and find peace in your land.”
You are correct. We do work for what we need in this world. And money is the means by which we exchange what we work to produce.
You don’t see the difference? Money is a tool. You don’t work for MONEY. You work to produce food. You work to cure disease. You work to teach. You work to innovate. As soon as you start working for the sole purpose of accumulating money, you loose your humanity and become a slave.
And that’s what this is all about. No one is saying that you don’t have to work in order to live. What I’m saying is that you do not have to justify right to EXIST. You are no better than I. And I’m sure you’re a good farmer. But there are other skills and talents needed in society as well. And many times those skills go undeveloped because there is no money to pay for education.
According to your posts. Someone that doesn’t have any money doesn’t deserve to acquire the means to become successful. Where is your Christian charity? Where is your “Do unto others” philosophy? You’re not one to argue with God. So why do continue to hold that some people just don’t deserve to live like the rest of us just because they have no money? Didn’t God make the just and the unjust alike? Isn’t it written that God is no respecter of persons?
And doesn’t that mean that we are all equal in the eyes of God?
It’s time for America to put its money where its constitutional mouth is. If we are created equal according to the constitution, then we should all have equal buying power, so that each of us has a vested interest in making our country great again.
I worked in a non union plant as an hourly worker for almost 30 years and it was the same story there. I once had a supervisor who was known for producing more of the “4600 form” write ups than all the other 30 supervisors combined.
Production was inversely proportional to management trying to prove who was boss.
Willy-
Taking pride in the family farm equates to me being Communist? WOW. What this country started as was a farming country since electricity and manufacturing were yet to be invented. Calling a family farmer a Communist, what kind of person are you?
Benny-
Money is a tool. Just as is the torch a wielder uses when he creates. As is the computer, and the level, the compass, the tiller, a john deere tractor, a car. By your logic, i would have to work as a farmer to eat, then a car maker to have a car, then a gas attendent to get gas for that car, then… You get the point.
Money is the exchange. The wielder wields, get his honest wage, then with the freewill given to him by god, in this free capitalistic society he can buy beer to relax, if he so wishes. Or save for his kids, or retirement, pay for his bills. Maybe this guy has class and wants to travel to Washington state to see Mt. Hood. Maybe he wants to visit the smithsonian, go watch a movie, rent a DVD, buy a motorcycle, I hope you get it.
Again, i ask you what do you stand for? Why wont you answer such a simple question? Instead you keep trying to use a very, very inconsistent, as well as laughable illogical arguments trying to call me something i very plainly am not.
Benny-
“According to your posts. Someone that doesn’t have any money doesn’t deserve to acquire the means to become successful.”
What are you saying? How backwards and illogical is this sentence?
“Where is your Christian charity? Where is your “Do unto others” philosophy? You’re not one to argue with God. So why do continue to hold that some people just don’t deserve to live like the rest of us just because they have no money?”
Lets get one thing absolutely straight right now- God has absolutely NOTHING to do with money. What does the almighty need with money? Money is a man made thing, but how a man uses money is directly related to his soul.
Here is an insight to God for you, i hope it helps you,
The Bible, or any holy book for that matter, is nothing but a window to who you are, what is in your soul.
You want to find war and hate, you find it in that book. You want examples of intolerance and slavery? You’ll find them as well.
Look for love, you’ll find it. Look for peace, it’s in there.
As for charity? God made life on this planet hard for us to begin with for a reason. He made us work to appreciate this earth we were given. I’ll feed my brother, but i will not reward him for doing wrong.
“Didn’t God make the just and the unjust alike? Isn’t it written that God is no respecter of persons?”
God made humans. We come into the world as babies with a clean slate of experiences. We become “Just” or “Un-just” by our own actions, our own choices, our own freewill given to us by God. He has nothing to do with it.
You are still Illogical.
I respect your tenacity CD. I really do.
You still hang on the idea that if everyone has an equal share in GDP that only the lazy will prosper and that it won’t be “fair” to those that don’t “work”.
But is that really what would happen? You make quite a few assumptions I think. You seem to think that people are slothful by nature. Do you think that the average person really has NO DESIRE to be productive in a way that gives them a sense of value and self respect?
I can tell you that right now, we already do give most of the money to those who do the least actual work. Farmers take a beating every day of the year. They get no mercy from the elements and economic conditions of the time. And if too many crops fail, times can be fare worse than lean.
But corporate executives get billions in bonuses and stock options even to this day. And they are the ones that caused this mess in far greater part than the average consumer. So the people that do the least work and cause the most harm already get more money than the people that do the hardest jobs that do the most good. That’s the system we live in RIGHT NOW.
However, in an open economy where every American citizen shares an equal part of GDP, the money will actually pool where the real talent and innovation lies.
We have thousands of unemployed engineers, doctors, blue collar workers, etc… right now. There is real skill sitting out there idle right now. There are inventors just chomping at the bit to produce prototypes of technologies that would defy belief and bring immeasurable good to the community. But none of it can happen because they’re broke.
If they each had a set income based on GDP, you can bet that they would be busy creating and innovating right now. And those in the community that are enthusiastic about bringing these new innovations forward can just start working together with these bright young minds. Each contributing a small portion of their share of GDP to the project. Thus funding happens directly through community participation. Get rid of copy right laws and “intellectual property too”. After all if everyone has a steady income then those devices no longer serve a purpose.
This is what I’m talking about CD. Let the money decide for itself where the real value lay.
If you could actually live on your farm and sell the produce during good times but still know that you’ve got the money to stock up for rainy days, you’ve got a double win. You’ve got the cash to buy extra supplies to help you during lean times when harvest isn’t so good, and you’ve got the extra money you make from selling during the good times to add to your already steady share of GDP. So now you’ve got profit. You’ve got real goods. And you’ve got a steady income.
And the people who produce get the most. That is an open economy.
Sure! What an intellectually insightful story.
Cannot wait to buy the book…
It was not the decades of lack of R&D while the
Japanese did their homework.
It was not taking short cuts and just selling
unreliable, gas-guzzling vehicles.
It was not just selling vehicles, which paint started
peeling of the bodywork after a couple of years.
Please let us not kid ourselves, it was US consumers
who did GM in. For years Detroit took us for granted,
but over the years a gradual revolt happened. Many
of us got fed up of the crap and started buying
foreign vehicles. And the rest is history.
Often we can change the term “management” to “tyrants” and be talking about the same people. There’s something to the notion that one is promoted up to his ultimate level of incompetence.
Also, why do we accept the fact that Hyundai and Toyota have come onto our shores and are paying American workers less than GM and Ford? Is that what America is about — moving downward? Oh yeah, I forgot…that is how the Republicans think, isn’t it? Suppress the little guy so The Man can get richer on the backs of the little guys.
Republican economics has destroyed what was a great economy. The oppression of the conservative Republicans cannot be overlooked or dismissed. Republicans will do to our nation what the Taliban hasn’t been able to do – destroy it!
I recently walked around a roghly two square miles of my local middle class neighborhood. I counted the autos that people owned, just out of curiosity. Out of 35 total autos, four were made in the USA. 31 autos were made overseas. No matter what you say or how you say it, we Americans have learned that Detroit built autos are not here to stay. It is time to get the employees away from work ethic that destroys human endeavor. Retrain these valuable people to rebuild the infrastucture. They are good at what they do, they really need a different leadership.
Benny-
“I respect your tenacity CD. I really do.”
That’s right, I’m American, I never give up.
“You still hang on the idea that if everyone has an equal share in GDP that only the lazy will prosper and that it won’t be “fair” to those that don’t “work”.”
What don’t you get about “If you don’t work, you don’t get paid, If you work, you deserve an honest wage for honest work.”
It seems to me benny that you have never worked an honest day in your life. I worked with my brother in the home insulation business. I have worked in warehouses. I have worked in construction rebuilding fire damaged homes. My dad is a machinist and a Vietnam vet. My Grandfather was a machinist and a WWII vet. His father was a machinist and a tank commander in Africa during WWII, another Great Grandfather of mine was in WWI in France from 1917 to 1919. I have many items from them all to remind me of the sacrifices and the blood Americans have left all over this world to protects its freedoms and liberties.
It doesn’t bother me you keep trying to call me a Communist, I know what I am.
You however, not to sure who you are, or what you stand for, but that is OK to. You know why?
Its a free country, one in which you CAN yell and scream and call people names, work how you want for what you want, or not work at all. America is that free.
I plan to keep her that way, how about you?
Benny, in your example of a farmer and a CEO, you assume the farmer works harder because he’s out in an air-conditioned tractor working a job where he might get sweaty and dirty.
If running a successful company was easy work, more people would be doing it.
Drewbie,
Spending time in an air conditioned tractor isn’t all a farmer does. And if running a business is so difficult then why do they have so many incompetents at the helm? So far the only thing being produced by business, is debt, fear,and poverty. Our current system requires that there be a second class of citizen.
And that is a fatal flaw.
And I suppose I should qualify that last post. I’m not talking about your small community business. I’m talking about the multinationals and Corporate giants that control a major portion of the marketplace.
I have to agree with Willy; the more places around the world I visit, the less I want to come back.
“Chicken and egg” arguments aside, ultimately, the responsibility for the failures being experienced by the Big 3 have to be placed squarely on management (or Capital, if you will). If they let themselves be bullied by unions, they are responsible. If they made bad business decisions, they’re responsible. That’s what comes with the territory; you want the big bucks? You’re on the hook for success or failure. Don’t point to the workers who are reactive by nature. If they react to a police-state type of workplace by industrial sabotage, then I say good for them. Stick it to The Man.
I am curious to know which “right to work” (for less) state is doing so well. I believe I read the poster state that their state had the 15th largest economy in the world?
CD: I think Benny is the one staying above the fray in your back-and-forth and you are the one trying to use names and mischaracterizations to try and goad him into something. After reading your interactions, it seems that you would likely agree with Benny more than you disagree.
Regarding human value: Is work the pinnacle of human existence? In order to be productive, must you “work” or are there other contributions to be made besides “work”?
I have to wonder about something, the way Detroit seemed to run itself into the ground. If you look at it from Big Oil’s perspective, the less MPG per car, the more they make. The more a car can get out of a Gallon, the less money into the pockets of Big Oil.
You have to wonder if Big Oil wasn’t an Influence on these Corporate Execs, who are not stupid people, just greedy. That greed makes them predictable as it is their only motivation. It is simply a matter of Math. Cars with bad MPG puts the most money in Big Oil’s pockets. Cars with Good MPG put less money in Big Oil’s pockets.
If your a Big Oil executive, what are you going to “LOBBY” for?
Citizen Bob- and willy
“I have to agree with Willy; the more places around the world I visit, the less I want to come back.”
then don’t
Quote: “I am curious to know which “right to work” (for less) state is doing so well. I believe I read the poster state that their state had the 15th largest economy in the world?
Try Texas, look it up. No. 1 in jobs created in the nation in 2008, no state income tax, 14 BILLION surplus, low taxes,
#1 in exporting state in the union for the 7th year in a row. No. 1 in wind energy for the third year in a row.
In 2006, Texas was home to six of the top 50 companies on the Fortune 500 list and 56 overall, more than any other state. [1] Texas has an economy that was the second largest in the nation and the 15th largest in the world based on GDP (nominal) figures. As the largest exporter of goods in the United States, Texas currently grosses more than $100 billion a year in trade with other nations. “The economic outlook for Texas during 2008 points towards slower growth, yet that’s still better than most parts of the country, which will see no growth at all. Texas, with the 2nd largest state economy in the U.S. and the 15th largest economy in the world, will record growth of about 2.2% annually, according to the Texas Workforce Commission.
Sends more to Washington than it collects.
We’re doing fine, just don’t move here. The mall looks like Los Angeles as it is.
Willy-
Texas- interesting state.
How easy is it to get all that business when your boy Bush Sr. started in politics in the 70′s. Wonder how many government money got siphoned to Texas like Murtha siphons government money to PA.
Texas claims to be moral
as it breaks their Gods commandment of “Thou shall not kill” as it kills the most prisoners
Texas claims to be moral
and is the state with the most innocent men in jail
Texas has wind only because of Pickens, Energy companies like Duke most certainly didn’t want wind.
Texas sheltered Enron
Texas wishes to leave the union because it can’t have its way, and only its way. Children are like that, or religious zealots.
CD, I don’t read your drivel any more. Don’t you have some farming to do on you EIGHT acres?? LOL
BTW, CD, I was answering the poster who asked. Not you.
If I want you, I’ll ring your bell. Namaste.
CD,
People are discussing the problem of the economy and what things might be done to correct the situation.
So far all you do is spout nonsense to get people sidetracked. Have you lost so much hope in your dream of becoming a writer that you settle for stirring the pot on discussion groups?
Have you nothing to offer but bile and venom? I’ll do your advertising for you.
GO TO THE ADDRESS BELOW. It’s the link CD used to attached to his name when posting. Some of his ideas have merit. But his skill isn’t all it could be.
http://30somthingrepublican.blogspot.com /
Benny and willy-
I am farming, I am weeding out your bad ideas.
Benny, as for you saying i’m “So far all you do is spout nonsense to get people sidetracked.”
How is saying that people who do honest work should get an honest wage nonsense? Especially when you keep going on and on and on about people sharing in the GDP? What makes America great, the promise of America, is if you work hard and dedicate yourself to something, you can do, or become anything you want.
If you think that is silly, well, it is your right in this great country.
CD
Am I to understand that you are weeding out our “bad ideas” on a public forum for your own benefit? Or are you saying that you are needed in order to weed out our “bad ideas” for the benefit of the other readers?
If you’re doing it for yourself then why post? And if you’re doing it “for the other readers” then does that mean that you know better than the other readers what constitutes a bad or good idea?
You seem to post the most after people post pieces that contain substance. It’s like you don’t want anyone else to read it so you just post like mad in the hopes that slinging enough crap will cover up the reality of what is being said.
Is this what you’re trying to do?
Benny-
just expressing my right under the first amendment, this just happens to be the forum.
Your posting just as much “Crap” as me, yet you STILL haven’t really stated what your about, except to keep going on and on about equally sharing the GDP, then you moved to an “Open Economy”, or was it back to wealth distribution by automating the Fed? I forget, you keep changing.
I haven’t wavered on my stances of Free Capitalism, which allows people to do whatever it is they wish to do with their money.
Nor have i wavered on my stance of Honest Work deserves an Honest wage.
I simply think “Your Ideas” are bad. I simply offer other ideas.
Your attacking me for expressing my “Ideas” makes me think your a little Totalitarian in your personality. I have never “Attacked” you for your “Ideas”, just offered alternatives in a manner that hope represents myself as Civilized. Instead of not even wanting to “Listen” to you, I listen, then “Debate”.
This is what makes this Country so great, the ability to disagree in a Civilized manner. Even with your current Government.
Can you disagree (in a public forum) with the Governments of China, or Iran, or Al-qaeda, or the Taliban, or Venezuela, or Burma, or even Russia today?