Comments on: Obama’s disappearing stimulus http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/ Thu, 21 Jul 2016 07:57:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: Anon http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-16028 Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:01:23 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-16028 On the other hand, the difference between insanity and genius is measured by degrees of success.

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By: Anubis http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15988 Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:53:36 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15988 Mr. Bartron, Einstien stated the definition of insanity was to continue to apply the same action and expect a different result.

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By: Anon. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15964 Tue, 02 Jun 2009 07:49:11 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15964 Benny.

Rather then respond to your sprawling post, I will just ask you a simple question:

Have you ever read a basic economics textbook?

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By: Benny Acosta http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15924 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:30:03 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15924 To any who might have any interest in this, these are closing arguments from a discussion I was having on another issue which I think speaks to this one:

In the declaration of independence of 1776 it is written,

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”,

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/dec laration.html

Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. If you look around you in this country today, you can see that the promise of this declaration has yet to be fulfilled for every American. Many Americans don’t have much in the way of a life. Many don’t have much in the way of liberty. And many more yet, are so oppressed by the conditions in this country that their only “happiness” lies at the bottom of a bottle, or the end of a needle.

A close examination of the problem shows a common thread. And that thread is money. But not just money itself. The problem comes from the profit motive, which changes money from a medium of exchange to a medium of control.

Just look around you. Read the headlines on this site. You’ll see right away that I write truthfully. Whether the problem is attributed to CDS, credit liquidity, poor regulation, etc….
The problem revolves around money, and quarterly profit reports.

I advocate for the automation of the treasury and federal reserve. The reason is simple. The people who run those bodies come either from wall street or Washington. As a result, they will implement policy that protects their own interests first. The sole job of the treasury/federal reserve is to maintain a consistent supply of money, and to maintain the value of that money. This resource (money) must be kept in limited supply. That’s why simply printing more causes inflation. The accumulation of this limited resource for its own sake is called profit. And when money is constantly drawn from the system to the tune of billions every day, then eventually a deficiency develops.

And if you look around you today, the deficiency is tremendous. And our government has decided to add to the debt in order to “fix” the economy. Now all of this is well understood by many and to a much greater depth I’m sure, than I understand.

But what puzzles me has been the idea that this should some how mean that human beings should suffer because of this. Our money has no real value whatsoever. It’s not even attached to the gold standard. The value of our currency is based on the “good faith and credit of the United States Government”. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have little if any faith left in our government. And our credit is terrible.

But considering that our money is worthless, why not simply divide GDP across the board equally to all adult citizens?

Most of the time the reaction is one of knee-jerk fear or disgust. But if one looks at the free open software movement, one can see that great productivity and innovation flourishes in an environment where access to the building blocks of production are accessible to everyone. Linux started up in the 90’s, well after Microsoft and Apple had become established. And in recent years (the past ten or so), Linux and open source software have become major players in the marketplace despite Microsoft’s efforts to keep them out. Open source and Linux don’t depend on the profit motive, so lack of money is only a side inconvenience because programmers have to have other jobs in order to pay their bills.

Code is not locked down as intellectual property to which no one else has a right. Instead code is shared and given away. This allows young would be programmers to get their hands on real code and create applications that are useful and help them develop their skills free of legal or financial encumbrance.

Open source software is important because it demonstrates that allowing the building blocks of production to be available to all without restrictions, encourages innovation and forward thinking.

In our economy the building block of production is the medium of exchange. If you are unable to exchange resources, you can’t provide for your needs, let alone your wants. In our society money is printed by the government. Our declaration of independence grants us the rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Money is needed in this society in order for any of those things to happen. And since our currency is not attached to a gold standard but is simply printed on government presses and set with an arbitrary value, then that makes the dollar public property. The government is a public body. The money it creates is public property.

Divide GDP amongst the citizens. And this way the gifts and talents of all Americans are given the means to flourish. As of yet I have had no logical arguments that speak to any flaws that can be examined. I have gotten arguments saying that people must work for money. But the idea I bring to the table is a complete departure from this philosophy. Any attempt to understand this idea from the work=money perspective will be impossible.

Yet the very idea I bring forward is applied in our capitalist structure already. It’s called investing. “It takes money to make money”. And so even though the idea I present has been called socialist, it is actually much more individualist and capitalist. It is simply capitalism of a much higher order. Money can’t cure AIDS. But it CAN pay to educate the young mind that will. Money can’t solve the energy crisis. But it CAN finance innovators that have the technological solutions.

Dividing GDP equally actually gives every American a truly equal opportunity to live the American dream of life liberty and pursuit of happiness.

The question should not be one of “should we do this?”, but rather “How do we do this?”

Thanks for reading.

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By: Paul Bartron http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15904 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:05:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15904 The stimulus idea was tried by Japan when Japan went into recession, it didn’t work. So why did George Bush and then Obama try the same thing? Because nobody listens to history or even bother to find out if the stimulus idea had been tried before. Besides according to Judical Watch his bail out of AIG, Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac was all old fashioned political pay back for campaign contributions $100,000 from AIG and millions from the other two. The Federal Reserve is a private bank that has never been subjected to an audit and can and does print money to pay any of its friends. Inflation is going to skyrocket. America is being subjected to financial slavery, banksters and politicians are stealing all the money.

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By: Benny Acosta http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15902 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 02:43:12 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15902 “I understand that the money was given mostly to the banks, to eliminate the inflationary pressures of repairing personal finances.
had the bailout money gone directly to debt reduction, the banks would no longer have bad debts eating them, however they would also lose the profitability of securitization of bad debt.”

Does that mean that banks didn’t want to loose profit that would be made if debt is repaid? I just want to make sure I understand.

And if that is the case it would seem that the banking industry decided to push for its profit at the expense of American families.

And does that mean that they basically asked for and got American tax payer money, so that they could stay in business long enough to collect payment owed to them by the very taxpayers whos money was used to keep them alive?

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By: f belz http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15897 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:12:53 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15897 We are not, I believe, on the road to recovery. You can’t build wealth on borrowed money. Borrowed money is what got us into this mess. When people own the car they drive, and own the house and the furnishings in their houses then we can begin to see actual wealth come about. Pension funds must begin to do their own investing in buildings they own, with little or no leverage. The yields may not be as high as the fake yields of yesterday, but there will be bricks and mortar to back up the dollars spent. It will take some time, but we need to put this country back on a solid fiscal footing.

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By: Nick http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15896 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:43:01 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15896 “At the very least states should seek to balance their budgets in such a way that minimizes the drain on personal consumption”? WTF?

It seems that a strong combination of insanity and stupidity has taken over the economic and geopolitical spheres. I love this “solution” to this crisis. “Lets solve a borrowing and spending crisis by borrowing and spending more”! WHAT A JOKE!

Our entire problem is consumption. Instead of saving and producing we spend and consume. Everyone and their mother was taught not to be profligate. Yet every year our national debt balloons and we put off the problem for another year, so that another generation of Americans can handle it. The ultimate Adjustable Rate Mortgage is owned by the US government. Stop spending, start saving people. No pain, no gain. Stop looking to steal from someone else whether it’s the rich, minorities, the middle-class or anyone else. Taxing everyone to death is hardly a solution to this problem.

We tried the easy way for the past twenty years look at where it got us. Stand up, tough it out, take the misery brought upon us for a few years, or try the “easy fix” and see where it leads again. YOU CANNOT SPEND YOUR WAY INTO PROSPERITY OR BORROW YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT. PERIOD.

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By: steve http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15891 Sun, 31 May 2009 21:48:52 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15891 I understand that the money was given mostly to the banks, to eliminate the inflationary pressures of repairing personal finances.
had the bailout money gone directly to debt reduction, the banks would no longer have bad debts eating them, however they would also lose the profitability of securitization of bad debt.

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By: John S http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/29/obamas-disappearing-stimulus/#comment-15865 Sun, 31 May 2009 12:39:38 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=3767#comment-15865 Yet, Obama and many Democrats will push for a national health care plan even though our Social Security and Medicare plans are at risk for going bankrupt? Can we really afford another poorly managed government plan?
I really thought Obama would concentrait on getting the country back on its feet. But instad he seems determined to make a name for himself by creating this healthcare program no matter what. Because he feels we need it.
My answer to that President is that we need a lot of things but so far we have been unable to pay for them.
Our roads and bridges have been ignored and our educational system has crumbling schools and old material to teach with. Tax payers incomes are going down not up and do not keep up with inflation. Yet our state, local and federal governments will ask us for more? I do not agree that this will help American’s.

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