Comments on: Seeking consensus on immigration, guns http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/ Thu, 21 Jul 2016 07:57:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: akrozbi http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70612 Mon, 04 Feb 2013 20:39:34 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70612 I wish writers would take the time to dig down into the NRA website to understand to legal, constitutional, ethical, historical aspects of firearms. Read Heller and McDonald and weigh, in your own mind, the merits of both sides of the argument. Only then would they understand that a ten round magazine limit is worthless. Just worthless. Absolutely NO benefit to society.

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By: CF137 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70596 Mon, 04 Feb 2013 06:14:52 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70596 The president said, “It’s going to take a wave of Americans — mothers and fathers, daughters and sons, pastors, law enforcement, mental health professionals and, yes, gun owners ‑ standing up and saying ‘Enough!’ on behalf of our kids.” That’s happening.

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Nope, it’s not. On TV it might “look” like that is happening, but it real life it is not happening.

What’s happening in real life?

Tens of millions of fathers, sons, mothers, daughters, pastors, law enforcement, mental health professionals and yes, gun owners…are flocking to gun stores to buy guns and ammo.

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By: akrozbi http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70594 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 23:06:38 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70594 Is this support wishful thinking?

Almost 100 percent of people in three states support background checks.
Here are a few thoughts.
We ALREADY have background checks for commercial sales of firearms. Most would agree that the NICS system is supposed to cover exactly what the proposed new background checks are looking at. With the notable exception of sales between private parties.
The new proposal covers all sales. I am against the goverment being a party to ALL sales. Would society gain from this? Likely not as it isn’t currently a problem.
The End game for Feinstein/Schumer is to dry up the supply of guns and make them impractical to own..they do an end run around the Second Amendment.
The new background checks promoters don’t mention fingerprints, fees, photogrphs, applications, and turning your guns over to the government when you die. Say goodbye to Grandfather’s shotgun that has been in the family seventy-five years.
I dispute that a majority of americans want this kind of intrusion into their lives.
No thanks.

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By: PseudoTurtle http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70593 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 19:56:46 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70593 @ wigglwagon —

Your comment that “either let the exploitive employers exploit ALL workers, or NO workers” is — sorry, but there this is the first thing that came to my mind, and while I considered toning it down, there is no other way to put it — ignorant beyond belief.

THIS is exactly what the wealthy class intends to do.

They want to return to (their) “good old days” by wiping out any laws that protect workers from their greed.

There are some truths the American people need to understand:

The wealthy class has NO interest whatsoever in reducing unemployment, which is why it will NEVER go down.

Why?

Because low unemployment with a scarcity of labor gives workers some control over the despotic behavior of the wealthy class.

If workers can force the wealthy class to pay them a decent living wage, it means better food, housing, health care, education and retirement — ALL of which are an anathema to the wealthy who feel no moral or legal obligation to pay anyone any more than they must.

What the wealthy class wants is “quasi-slave labor” with as much of an excess population of potential workers as possible to reduce the power of the non-wealthy.

There are multiple instances of this in US history where the wealthy class has treated wokers as no different than animals meant for slaughter, while they lived in mansions.

The so-called “outsourcing” of US jobs was solely to obtain the cheapest labor possible at the expense of the American worker — who were once known as some of the finest workers and craftsman in the world.

Now, the wealthy are abandoning China for lower wages and less regulation in other parts of the world because the Chinese are demanding better wages and living conditions they refuse to give them.

——————————–

To illustrate my point (from Wikipedia, strictly for ease of access),

“Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., Ltd., trading as Foxconn, is a Taiwanese multinational electronics contract manufacturing company headquartered in Tucheng, New Taipei, Taiwan.

It is the world’s largest electronics contract manufacturer measured by revenues.[3][4]

Foxconn is primarily an original design manufacturer, and its clients include major American, European, and Japanese electronics and information technology companies.

Notable products that the company manufactures include the iPad,[5] iPhone,[6] iPod,[6] Kindle,[7] PlayStation 3[8] and Wii U.[9]

Foxconn has been involved in several controversies, most relating to how it manages employees in China where it is the largest private-sector employer.[10] In 2012 Apple hired the Fair Labor Association to conduct an audit of working conditions at Foxconn.[11]

The Foxconn suicides occurred between January and November 2010 when eighteen[1] Foxconn employees attempted suicide with fourteen deaths.[1][2][3] The suicides drew media attention, and employment practices at Foxconn, a large contract manufacturer, were investigated by several of its customers including Apple and HP.[4]

Foxconn is a major manufacturer that has catered to such companies as Apple, Dell, HP, Motorola, Nintendo, Nokia, and Sony.[4]

The suicides prompted 20 Chinese universities to compile a report on Foxconn, which they described as a labour camp.[2]

Long working hours,[5] discrimination of mainland Chinese workers by their Taiwanese coworkers,[6] and a lack of working relationships[7] have all been held up as potential problems.

=====================

In response to the suicides, Foxconn substantially increased wages for its Shenzhen factory workforce,[11]

installed suicide-prevention netting,[12]

and asked employees to sign no-suicide pledges.[13]

Workers were also forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they and their descendants would not sue the company as a result of unexpected death, self-injury, or suicide.[14]

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How many of you have bought the products listed above? If so you have been wilfully supporting slave labor in 3rd world countries. You CANNOT claim ignorance, because this latest incident is not the exception but the rule. This has happened with great regularity in other industries, especiall the garment and shoe industries. You would have to blind, deaf and dumb to be absolved from complicity in slave labor.

Are you kidding me?

“Asking (?) employees to sign no-suicide pledges” (and forcing workers) “to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they and their descendants would not sue the company as a result of unexpected death, self-injury, or suicide.”

Clearly, the wealthy class was more interested in protecting themselves and their money from lawsuits, than in improving working conditions for the workers, even when those abominable working conditions were encouraging workers to commit suicide rather than endure more abuse!

What happened to Foxconn in Asia is, again, NOT the exception, but the rule.

This same treatment has been accorded new immigrants from Europe to the US, for example, when they arrived here. They were essentially forced into slave labor with unsafe working conditions, which were so bad that many immigrants died as a result.

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Want proof?

“The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City on March 25, 1911, was the deadliest industrial disaster in the history of the city of New York and resulted in the fourth highest loss of life from an industrial accident in U.S. history.

It was also the second deadliest disaster in New York City – after the burning of the General Slocum on June 15, 1904 – until the destruction of the World Trade Center 90 years later.

The fire caused the deaths of 146 garment workers, who died from the fire, smoke inhalation, or falling or jumping to their deaths.

Most of the victims were recent Jewish and Italian immigrant women aged sixteen to twenty-three;[1][2][3] of the victims whose ages are known, the oldest victim was Providenza Panno at 43, and the youngest were 14-year-olds Kate Leone and “Sara” Rosaria Maltese.[4]

Because the managers had locked the doors to the stairwells and exits – a common practice at the time to prevent pilferage and unauthorized breaks[5] – many of the workers who could not escape the burning building jumped from the eighth, ninth, and tenth floors to the streets below.

The fire led to legislation requiring improved factory safety standards and helped spur the growth of the International Ladies’ Garment Workers’ Union, which fought for better working conditions for sweatshop workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Sh irtwaist_Factory_fire

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THAT did not happen in China, nor workers suffering from Chinese wealthy factory owners.

THAT is the “good old days” the wealthy class in the US want this country to return to, just so they can get wealthier and more powerful than they are today.

THAT IS THE UNDERLYING REASON THE WEALTHY WANT TO FLOOD THE US ECONOMY WITH CHEAP LABOR IMMIGRANTS.

THE FIRST TIME IT WAS WITH BLACK SLAVES, THE SECOND TIME WITH EUROPEAN QUASI-SLAVES, AND NOW IT IS WITH LATINOS, WHO WILL PROBABLY END UP VIOLENTLY OVERTHROWING THE GOVERNMENT.

THE UGLY TRUTH IS THE WEALTHY CLASS, NO MATTER WHERE OR WHEN IN HISTORY, HAS ALWAYS TREATED THE NON-WEALTHY LIKE ANIMALS GOING TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.

THIS IS WHAT THE WEALTHY-CONTROLLED US GOVERNMENT WANTS US TO GO BACK TO — NO DECENT LIVING WAGE, MINIMUM FOOD, SHELTER AND CLOTHING FOR US AND OUR FAMILIES. NO HEALTH CARE, NO RETIREMENT — NOTHING!!!

WHY?

BECAUSE IF WE ARE NOT BORN WEALTHY, IT IS A SIGN FROM GOD THAT THE WEALTHY CLASS, WHO CAN SUPPOSEDLY TRACE THEIR ANCESTORS TO A DIVINE BEGINNING DO NOT NEED TO SEE US AS HUMAN.

THUS, WE ARE PUT ON THIS EARTH AS THEIR SERVANTS TO TREAT US AS THEY WISH — THIS IS KNOWN AS THE “PROTESTANT WORK ETHIC” AND IT UNDERLIES THE ENTIRE AMERICAN ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL HISTORY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_ work_ethic

THIS IS ALSO THE BASIS OF THEIR BELIEF IN THE “SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST” — SOCIAL DARWINISM — WHICH JUSTIFIES EVERYTHING THEY DO.

WHAT SOCIAL DARWINISM MEANS ON AN EVERY DAY BASIS IS THAT THE WEALTHY CLASS SEE THE NON-WEALTHY AS A NATURALLY INFERIOR CLASS THAT MUST BE ELIMINATED IN ORDER TO ATTAIN “SOCIAL PROGRESS”.

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“Social Darwinism is an ideology of society that seeks to apply biological concepts of Darwinism or of evolutionary theory to sociology and politics,

often with the assumption that conflict between groups in society leads to social progress as superior groups outcompete inferior ones.

The name social Darwinism is a modern name given to the various theories of society that emerged in England and the United States in the 1870s, which, it is alleged, sought to apply biological concepts to sociology and politics.[1][2]

Today, because of the negative connotations of the theory of social Darwinism, especially after the atrocities of the Second World War (including the Holocaust), few people would describe themselves as Social Darwinists and the term is generally seen as pejorative.[3]

Social Darwinism is generally understood to use the concepts of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves.

Many such views stress competition between individuals in laissez-faire capitalism; but the ideology has also motivated ideas of eugenics, scientific racism, imperialism,[4] fascism, Nazism and struggle between national or racial groups.[5][6]”

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“Herbert Spencer (27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903) was an English philosopher, biologist, sociologist, and prominent classical liberal political theorist of the Victorian era.

Spencer is best known for coining the concept “survival of the fittest”, which he did in Principles of Biology (1864), after reading Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species.[6]”

NOTE THE WEALTHY CLASS NO LONGER USES SOCIAL DARWINISM BECAUSE OF ITS NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS.

INSTEAD, THEY HAVE SWITCHED TO THE MORE NEUTRAL AND SOCIALLY ACCEPTABE PHRASE “SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST”.

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Granted the Protestant Work Ethic and Social Darwinism can, and have been used ethically and morally to advance society.

But the abolute perverson of those two led in the US to
“Manifest Destiny”, which is the ultimate twisted quasi-religious and social crusading version of beliefs that mark the US, not only historically, but in our present cultural attitude towards others in this society who are not the same. And, perhaps more importantly for the rest of the world, it is manifested not only internally, but in our foreign/military policy as well.

This is the underlying reason for our aggressive military adventures that have decimated so many nations and cultures.

THIS is “democracy”, American-style.

“Manifest destiny was the belief held by Democrats in the United States in the 19th century that American settlers were destined to expand across the continent.

This concept, born out of “A sense of mission to redeem the Old World by high example … generated by the potentialities of a new earth for building a new heaven”.[1]

The phrase itself meant many different things to many different people.

The unity of the definitions ended at “expansion, prearranged by Heaven”.[2]

Manifest destiny provided the tone for the largest acquisition of U.S. territory.

It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico and it was also used to divide half of Oregon with Great Britain.

The legacy is a complex one. The belief in an American mission to promote and defend democracy throughout the world, as expounded by Abraham Lincoln and later by Woodrow Wilson and George W. Bush, continues to have an influence on American political ideology.[4][5]

Themes and influences:

Three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of Manifest Destiny:

(1) the virtue of the American people and their institutions;

(2) the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the United States;

(3) the destiny under God to do this work.[20].

=======================

(1) The origin of the first theme, later known as American Exceptionalism, was often traced to America’s Puritan heritage, particularly John Winthrop’s famous “City upon a Hill” sermon of 1630, in which he called for the establishment of a virtuous community that would be a shining example to the Old World.

In his influential 1776 pamphlet Common Sense, Thomas Paine echoed this notion, arguing that the American Revolution provided an opportunity to create a new, better society:

We have it in our power to begin the world over again. A situation, similar to the present, hath not happened since the days of Noah until now. The birthday of a new world is at hand…

Many Americans agreed with Paine, and came to believe that the United States’ virtue was a result of its special experiment in freedom and democracy.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to James Monroe, wrote that “it is impossible not to look forward to distant times when our rapid multiplication will expand itself beyond those limits, and cover the whole northern, if not the southern continent”.[21]

To Americans in the decades that followed their proclaimed freedom for mankind, embodied in the Declaration of Independence, could only be described as the inauguration of “a new time scale” because the world would look back and define history as events that took place before, and after, the Declaration of Independence.[22]

It followed that American owed to the world an obligation to expand and preserve these beliefs.

(2) The second theme’s origination is less precise. A popular expression America’s mission was elaborated by President Abraham Lincoln’s description, in his December 1, 1862 message to Congress. He described the United States “the last, best hope of Earth” The “mission” of the United States was elaborated on in Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, in which he interpreted the Civil War as a struggle to determine if any nation with democratic ideals could survive, has been called by historian Robert Johannsen “the most enduring statement of America’s Manifest Destiny and mission”.[23]

(3) The third theme can be viewed as a natural outgrowth of the belief that God had a direct influence in the foundation and further actions of the United States.

Clinton Rossiter, a scholar, described this view as summing “that God, at the proper stage in the march of history, called forth certain hardy souls from the old and privilege-ridden nations…and that in bestowing His grace He also bestowed a peculiar responsibility”.

Americans presupposed that they were not only divinely elected to maintaining the North American continent but “spread abroad the fundamental principles stated in the Bill of Rights”.[24]

In many cases, this meant neighboring colonial holdings and countries were seen as obstacles not the destiny God had provided the United States.

=========================

By perverting the Protestant Work Ethic and Social Darwinism into Manifest Destiny, this nation morphed into a country of religious and moral fanatics that had not been seen since the Crusades.

And THAT is what we remain today.

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THIS IS THE WHAT THE RELIGIOUS AND MORAL FANATICS WHO CONTROL OUR GOVERNMENT REALLY ARE — I.E. THE WEALTHY CLASS.

IT IS THE WEALTHY CLASS, WITH THEIR TWISTED GREEDY BELIEF STRUCTURES IN THEIR, AND BY EXTENSION THIS NATION, GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO RULE THE WORLD THAT IS DESTROYING THE WORLD TODAY.

THESE “PEOPLE” ARE NOT “HUMAN” IN ANY MORAL SENSE OF THE WORD.

THESE “PEOPLE” ARE VULTURES WHO LIVE OFF THE ROTTING FLESH OF A DYING SOCIETY.

AND THIS SO-CALLED “DEMOCRACY” IS NO DIFFERENT, EXCEPT IT HIDES IS SINS FAR BETTER THAN MOST OTHER CULTURES.

THIS IS WHAT THE WEALTHY-CONTROLLED US GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO TO YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN’S FUTURE.

THIS IS WHY THEY REFUSE TO SAFEGUARD OUR BORDERS, BECAUSE THEY WANT AS MUCH CHEAP LABOR POURING INTO THIS COUNTRY AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN AS A RESULT.

AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE — ALL OF YOU, IF YOU ARE NOT WEALTHY — ARE LITERALLY TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

WHAT MUST BE DONE IS TO OVERTHROW THE WEALTHY CLASS AND TAKE OUR GOVERNMENT BACK, OR WE WILL BECOME THIER SLAVES AGAIN, LIVING IN NO BETTER CONDITIONS THAN IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

=========================

IT IS A HARD, BITTER TRUTH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE MUST FACE IF WE ARE TO SURVIVE.

WHAT I PRESENTED ABOVE IS MERELY A THUMBNAIL SKETCH OF WHO AND WHAT WE ARE.

I CANNOT FORCE YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU PROBABLY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR.

BUT WE MUST THROW OFF OUR IGNORANCE AND COMPLACENCY, UNDERSTAND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, WHY IT IS STILL OCCURRING NOW, AND SUMMON THE MORAL COURAGE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THERE IS LITTLE TIME LEFT!

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By: americanguy http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70592 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 19:12:19 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70592 “On both issues, the president has the public solidly behind him”

Do he doesn’t, unless by “public” you mean a select group of people polled for rigged results.
Poll people in cities with gun control (example New York) and poll cities with large hispanic populations (example Laredo Texas)for immigration polls to get “most people” results.
I know if the poll shows most people support President Obama on both issues, those polls never asked the states who voted against him or states who did, with cities that have high gun ownership figures.
That’s the thing about most polls, they call who they want to get the answer they want.
Don’t believe polls, they said Obama would lose right up until the election.

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By: BioStudies http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70591 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:12:12 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70591 If you listen to the right talk they are all about how to work together and compromise. If you listen to the left talk it’s all about how to overcome the crazies and save this country by implementing unconstitutional programs that have proven track records of failure in other countries.

The American people would do well to wake up.

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By: LysanderTucker http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70590 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:08:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70590 A car can be, but isn’t intended to be, a deadly weapon. So we require training in its operation, issue licenses to those trained sufficiently, require insurance in case of accidents, and even revoke the licenses of those who cannot operate it correctly (elderly, epileptics, etc.).

The same can apply to dangerous occupations such as tower climbers and window washers who attend OSHA courses for safety and to reduce liability to employers.

I am against gun control of any kind, just as I am against all the above stated regulations and rules also, in principle. But I fail to see how, in this overly safety conscious society we live in, firearms are not regulated the same way any other supposed danger is. A car MAY be used to cause damage or death to person and property, so we train, license and insure. A firearms purpose IS to kill something, so why the objection to training, licensing and insuring by so many gun advocates? The same argument was made over drivers licenses and forced auto insurance decades ago but now it has become status quo. Sadly, sooner or later, guns will be regulated away.

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By: EconCassandra http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70589 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 17:06:47 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70589 @ sylvan —

Errr …. gun control with a large Latino population is an oxymoron.

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By: agsocrates http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70587 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 14:16:44 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70587 I think you are simplifying the gun control aspect a little bit. While there is a majority support for an assault weapons ban, it is slim, only by 5% last time I saw. And making comparisons to the New York law where they effectively outlawed the majority of handguns (most have clips greater than seven rounds and will need to be modified in order to take smaller) is a little bit of a stretch. If the democrats were to stick to background checks, which may actually do something, then go with feel good measures like reinstating an assault weapons ban that had a negligible effect on violence, then they may get somewhere. I think many democrats would want to pass an amnesty law, but that would divide their caucus and engender stiff republican opposition. Its all about using common sense and picking your battles wisely.

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By: sylvan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/02/02/seeking-consensus-on-immigration-guns/#comment-70586 Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:38:08 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=17607#comment-70586 To run government around a third (GOP) of a third (unfettered gun rights supporters) of that population’s desire to carry extra large penile substitutes is stupid, regardless of how well the gun manufacturers distort the discussion. And to quote Rank Paul, especially with the word “evolving”, is an insult to your readers everywhere. He is a toupee wearing clown of a moronic clown’s loins who claims not to believe in evolution. And for Obama to implement the main components of the Dream Act by executive order is definitely something, whether this author cares to recognize it or not. Both immigration reform and gun control can and should be pursued regardless of what the anarchistic survivalist clowns have to say about it.

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