Comments on: Pope Francis: Beyond the compelling gestures http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/ Thu, 21 Jul 2016 07:57:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: paintcan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81805 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:35:20 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81805 @TMC – I know my comments are getting too confessional and I hardly paid attention to this last Pope’s election. I feel a little off balance every time I think about them.

St Francis walked around until he died with Stigmata on his hands and feet and they apparently never healed. There is even a chapter in Wikipedia that talks about them. They are more common than one would expect and 80% of them were/are born by women. I mentioned him at a Quaker meeting I tried to attend years ago and one old women there thought he was crazy, that’s all? But I can’t imagine a psychotic being able to pierce his own hands and feet through the bones (the metatarsals and metacarpals?) even in a fit? But I have seen a women in a psychiatric ward with shallow cuts in a diamond pattern on her arms that were really like African skin markings – painful but not that painful. And that may not even be where the Romans were supposed to have nailed Christ. Some think it could have been through the wrists and above the ankles. Maybe the Romans were trying to make him die quickly and not have to hang around for days the usual way, as they did with Sparticus’s 5000 fellow captives – tied with rope only?

They were such sadists and were experts at making people die in horrible ways, but everyone lived with so much more bodily pain in those days. Maybe that’s the “reason”?

I’ve been accused by one guy I like to argue with of having no wisdom. But life is not something that ever seems to be reducible to easy wisdom like his. He puts himself and his own welfare as the center of his circle. so to speak. The real St Francis seems to have tried not to do that. Maybe the sitgmata were some way of feeling that he wasn’t completely off his rocker? Did “God” live inside or outside that circle or in both places at once? The idea of God can’t be reduced to simple reason. Was it a reward for breaking out of his box? Or was St. Francis trying to prove something to himself?

BTW – It just occurred to me this morning: If Francis took a vow of obedience to his superiors, does that mean he is obligated to obey the earlier Pope? Did Benedict abdicate when he retired? I thought what they had now was a Pope emeritus and the new one? That photo at the top looks a tad goofy or even a bit sinister. But I suppose if you stare at it too closely and the expression is still – it can mean many things, especially if all you have to go on are photos and never knew the man personally? This whole country isn’t working on loads of confidence in its elected officials either. I haven’t had much in years and actually think skepticism is a whole lot smarter and ever wiser. It is! The sheep still get sheered and they still get served up as kabobs. Even “the Good Shepard” had to eat.

The Catholic Church always seems to be an organization that defied reason. The Protestant sects tended to be friendlier to reason. But what the hell is “reason” or rationality when human beings are anything but rational or reasonable in every aspect of their beings? Reason is a very delicate flower and always seems to need special handling and should keep blinders on about certain matters. But reason hates blinders.

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By: tmc http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81789 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:33:16 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81789 @paintcan, I’m not surprised by your attitude toward the roman catholic church. I’ve never been a friend to them in the past either. In fact I’ve never been a follower of any mainstream religion. I choose my own path. But as I look around at humanity, I find that I support all of those religions to some extent. They help keep mankind from anarchy. From what I see in this new Pope I will support him. He is trying to make things better for all people. I’ll give him the chance. I hope that all Christians remember the roots of their religion and forgive and let God judge, not the mobs.

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By: paintcan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81750 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 04:15:47 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81750 It would help on the credibility side if Pope Francis actually took the Franciscan vows of poverty, obedience and chastity. I don’t think Jesuits do. They vow to obey the Pope and their Superiors and to remain celibate. Celibacy and chastity are not synonymous in churchly eyes. Celibacy meant Priests could not have families and could not leave any children out of wedlock with property – church property – and could not recognize them as legitimate. If they had any children out of wedlock and had private resources they could sometimes see to it they didn’t starve but they had no social creds and carried the stigma of illegitimacy. Many people don’t remember the social structure of the old world at all. When the church ruled the roost in Europe and elsewhere lapses of chastity were almost laughed at (priests are only human) or despised by the more earnest. For priests, lapses of chastity were something they dealt with in private with their confessors. As a former Catholic, that’s what I was taught over 30 years ago.

BE careful about wanting orthodoxy – it has nasty implications like spikes all over it. I left it 30 year ago because their orthodoxy was already becoming very questionable and very shaky. Even the structure of the Mass is something that has undergone some funny alternations – even when I tried to attend recently to see if I could readapt to it. At one Sunday the Act of Contrition disappeared. That was very strange. They have also reversed the stand on extraordinary methods to prolong life for the terminally ill or comatose. Those are not the actions of an organization that claims infallibility. I really don’t expect that anyway but many Catholics seem to want that. Many still don’t want to think or they want reassurances about he vagaries of life that society can’t provide anymore. .

Francis doesn’t have to obey anyone as “monarch” of the church. And no Catholic ever votes for the Pope, Priests, Bishops or Cardinals. Some Protestant sects deal will clergy by agreement within the community. The Catholic practice doesn’t meld well with democratic institutions and isn’t even as accountable as the Protestant sects that adapted and flourished in the US. The monarch can be generous and compassionate in ways the stiffer and more Calvinist protestant sects don’t like to be, but that isn’t quite true in all cases. Even tolerance of organized crime may be more like the days of Tammany Hall when the immigrants saw that political machine as a way to rise under the dominance of the Anglo Saxon and Dutch old timers who dominated the social and economic life of New York City. The old guard needed the immigrant bodies as workers in the new industrial expansion of the country but hated them for their ethnic differences and the potential commercial and economic competition they represented. Is there a more truthful description of what was really going on then? The Statue of Liberty obscures the real life of the country. Are the faithful obligated to forget the social history? Those facts seem to be returning with a vengeance. Organized crime could actually be the compassionate route or economic conditions become too severe.

The Churches stand on Homosexuality is right out of the Old Testament. It is obvious the Church only wants people who will raise more children and more Catholics. So does every other religious tradition that wants more faithful through breeding and conditioning within the tradition. They all know it is harder to make converts. The Church I attended for a few months was very dominated by women who seemed more interested in the rituals than anything the Church stood for. There’s is something ridiculous about old ladies wearing mini skirts and carrying the Gospels in the air at all times and about very fat women wearing tight fitting pants that display everything but their vulvas. Most Catholics I saw there didn’t seem to do more than plug in every Sunday to get a dose of grace and then live their lives as well as they can. So do I and I’m gay – but chaste and celibate. But I really resent them for trying to tell me I couldn’t beat off as a teenager. Perhaps I would have understood the other boys better and not been gay? Catholic boys are raised to feel guilty about and to get married as soon as possible. So are the Amish and the orthodox Jews.

Those who did not raise families were either shunted to the side in civil life (as old maids or nice antique dealers etc) or were forced into convents and monasteries if they wanted to remain in the Church. The Church still harbors many people who obey their genetic code far more earnestly and unconsciously then they do any living or dead savior or monarch, spiritual or otherwise. That is their one true God even if it isn’t quite as unique and unexplainable as it once was. If the Church is afraid of relativism – it’s already lost the battle unless there is some Catholic or other physicist who can overturn Einstein. If there ever is one – they may have an even bigger problem with reality than they already have. The only “absolute” I seem to recall in physics is absolute zero – the coldest matter can become. I suppose that is still true. And that is the temperature that most of outer space actually comes closest too.

The St. Francics this Pope so admires is the most venerated of all the saints, apparently (according to Wikipedia but not Dante BTW) and had no further interest in the propagation of his line, his fortune or his status in society. Most Catholics would not dare do the true St. Francis route. But many Buddhists and Hindu religious people do follow his line of thinking because it has been their tradition for thousands of years. They were traditions that grew in areas far more developed and populated. This society of consumers doesn’t like the idea because it isn’t good for the economy – but might be good for the health of the planet – and really likes religious ideas that don’t hurt their consumption habits or real estate values. They love religion that is user friendly and tells them what to think about everything.

Not even “sanctity” is so unique and it certainly isn’t the monopoly of the RC church.

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By: tmc http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81668 Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:20:19 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81668 Unfortunately you may be right @acebros. He very well may be killed somehow in the next two years if he keeps up the high profile and actually gets the church minions to start preaching to his tune. Could you imagine American priests speaking out against their socially religious wall street and big business members? I would just love to see them singled out on a Sunday morning for like, the last merger they did. So cool. I would even go to church to see the likes of that!

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By: acebros http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81592 Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:23:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81592 The only question is, how soon will they poison him?

There is a long and honored tradition — honored at least in some quarters — of discreetly removing an inconveniently-pious pope: Gregory V, Adrian III, Benedict XI, Sergius IV, Clement II — and of course there is the sorry sorry tale of poor Pietro da Morrone, St Celestine V….But, after all, the Church, in this case the Church bureaucracy, has to protect itself, its ridiculous privileges, its vast financial empire, and its deviant ways….

Okayyyyy, this is the 21st century, and there have been advances. First, forensic science makes the old-fashioned methods a little riskier. On the other hand, it’s much easier to discredit the guy by planting, say, a naked altar boy in his rooms, or a bomb-wielding Bulgarian — a different kind of poison — or forging evidence of his complicity in the Dirty War, that process has already begun. But be assured, the monsignore-apparatchik-mafia will not roll over — their deal is too sweet, waaaaaayyyyy too sweet.

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By: acebros http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81591 Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:23:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81591 The only question is, how soon will they poison him?

There is a long and honored tradition — honored at least in some quarters — of discreetly removing an inconveniently-pious pope: Gregory V, Adrian III, Benedict XI, Sergius IV, Clement II — and of course there is the sorry sorry tale of poor Pietro da Morrone, St Celestine V….But, after all, the Church, in this case the Church bureaucracy, has to protect itself, its ridiculous privileges, its vast financial empire, and its deviant ways….

Okayyyyy, this is the 21st century, and there have been advances. First, forensic science makes the old-fashioned methods a little riskier. On the other hand, it’s much easier to discredit the guy by planting, say, a naked altar boy in his rooms, or a bomb-wielding Bulgarian — a different kind of poison — or forging evidence of his complicity in the Dirty War, that process has already begun. But be assured, the monsignore-apparatchik-mafia will not roll over — their deal is too sweet, waaaaaayyyyy too sweet.

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By: pashley1411 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81553 Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:39:15 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81553 Sadly the author, and no doubt some commentators, are looking for Francis to change the Church. And ignoring Francis’ call for them to change themselves.

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By: sufrinsucatash http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81544 Wed, 25 Dec 2013 09:45:47 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81544 There is no ambiguity in the teachings of Christ. The legacy of His work and message is abundantly clear. Finally, the Catholic church has produced a papal leader who understands and is willing to act on Christ’s teaching and example. It is only natural that Pope Francis would attract the harshest criticism and resistance.

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By: ofilha http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/24/pope-francis-beyond-the-compelling-gestures/#comment-81512 Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:57:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=26910#comment-81512 Their opponents can oppose him as desilusioned catholics leave the church in disgust with the hypocrisy, the opulence,arrogance of a church that is supposed to speak for the poor and the weak. They protect criminals in the name of God. Tney will end up in the worst hell, designed for these malcreants and demagogues.

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