Comments on: Swift U.S. jury verdict gives lie to Gitmo http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/ Thu, 21 Jul 2016 07:57:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: SeeEyeDog http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85186 Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:58:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85186 The US legal doctrine of conspiracy is ludicrously unfair and unjust. Where is the bright line demarcating the free speech and incitement to war?
If I were to say on this forum “hung all lawyers” starting from DC, would that be protected free speech or conspiracy to commit crimes? What if I have soap and rope?
Dick was right in so many of his writings…

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By: brotherkenny4 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85126 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:40:35 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85126 Our purpose is intimidation of all people. We see from the actions in Gitmo (gitmo gitmo gitmo Curmudgeon, and gitmo again)no process of discernable coherance, because it is to demonstrate the absolute power of those who call the shots. It is as much for the US citizens to see as the rest of the world. It is to prove that no one has rights and protections, no one.

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By: paintcan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85125 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:35:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85125 It’s not a big surprise that many wanted out of Iran when the Shah fled. Many former aristocrats fled France when the monarchy collapsed during their revolution. But why do you care VultureTX? You obviously have nothing but contempt for anyone from the ME.

It’s a false concern at best and an old tactic that is human nature: convince yourself the “enemy” is less of a human being than you think you (and you always think you are more human or smarter or more civilized) so you can justify to yourself and your lynch mob, that you have valid reasons to kill, rob and dominate him for his “own good”, whether or not it actually works to his benefit and whether or not your real concerns are only about maintaining your own standard of living. And you just as quickly forget or ignore any evidence to the contrary.

Females anywhere seem to be eager to marry outside danger zones and they were doing that in WWII also.

It should be obvious by now, I’m not a fan of the double talk and easy virtues that everyone seems to grab vicariously in times of war. Some are even nostalgic for that sense of a common goal but ignore the voices they caused to shut up. In the old days of WWII – backtalk was brutally suppressed. But so many now are far more sophisticated and know there is no such thing as a true common goal. It’s an illusion always made up through myth and propaganda. My grandparents never had more than grade school educations, my parents had one college education, my father, and both children had them so we don’t think the same as they did in WWII. We can’t afford to actually and I’ve never seen a so called “common goal” my whole life. In a country that is splitting so widely into winners and losers, it’s more of a myth than ever. And the country produces far fewer disposable male children than my Grandparent’s or parent’s generation. I went to college in the Vietnam era and I haven’t forgotten the double talk of those years.

It’s easy for a country to exonerate itself through it’s own court system. When all countries start to submit themselves to pan-national tribunals as a way to redress grievances, then that is the time to take seriously the idea that there is such a thing as international justice. Otherwise it’s just show time for the home audience and no principals of international law seem to matter much to most of them. Their courts do nothing more than confirm their own prejudices and priorities ignore their own crimes. That should be an obvious point to most people.

Instead, they turn the most disposable or vulnerable in their populations into human hamburger and praise them for the valor as long as they need to keep up moral and until they don’t need to think about them anymore. And the rest of the nest of vultures and hypocrites, that wouldn’t dare risk their own lives because they deem themselves too valuable, continue feeding and take it all for granted. Don’t we all, except on Veterans and Memorial days perhaps, and I can’t say I do any differently?

And I hope there are better debaters of my points than you are. BTW – The Shah’s name was Reza Shah Pahlavi. He was a crook and maintained a secret police regime that suppressed domestic criticism as surely as SH did. He thought he reigned by divine right and was the inheritor of an ancient tradition when, in fact, only his father before him had been restored, with US connivance, and took the title of Shah. He was a military man, known murderer, who killed like Nero or Caligula to furnish his own fortune, (by some accounts I read) and presided over a corrupt government. They both had western sympathies but alienated their own countrymen, especially those not included in the big take. This country was really more interested in Iran’s oil wealth and it’s own battle with communism and the son was a good customer for military hardware and other US product lines. When he was deposed he walked off with as much state wealth as he could get out with. And that was a “good” leader?

Recent article make much of Khamenei’s control of a fortune but it sounds far more like a general welfare and development fund that is not at his personal disposal and isn’t used for the lavish self-indulgence the Shah, or even the British Royal family, used/uses their wealth for. But the British royal family support a lot of charities. If the Iranians ever outgrow the theocratic model of government, and sooner or later they will, the funds may become something like a Rockefeller foundation, who knows? But the quality of Iranian governance isn’t what concerns most people and is certainly what will motivate them to go to war. Most of them haven’t the least concern for the present government of Iraq and if Iran were left in ruins and then spent decades in civil strife. they would blame the country and not their own contribution to its collapse. BTW – even providing “humanitarian assistance” to an insurgency (as the present administration is doing in Syria) would get any private citizen in a country branded a traitor. The double standards are rife.

But I’m getting used to the idea that all modern political leaders think they must be wealthy, and it’s only for the low income and uneducated or undereducated, and up and comers, to fight and die for their superior’s fortunes and grip on power. To borrow a line from Nancy Mitford regarding the corrupt court of the ancien regime of France, todays vets may only find “a moving ladder of preferment with half the rungs sawed through”.

I’m sure they will.

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By: HSchwartz http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85109 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:08:02 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85109 Tho she’s clearly right about the military commission system, which is a total disaster, and the ordinary crim ct system has worked perfectly for decades, the problem with Gitmo is that out of the 154 detainees there, only about 80 are likely to be prosecuted for some kind of war crime. The rest are being held there as “prisoners of war” and may be subject to being held until the end of the “war on terror,” which of course may be decades away. In the meantime, Congress won’t let them into the US, other countries won’t take them, so where do you keep them?

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By: VultureTX http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85105 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:55:58 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85105 based on your knowledge of iranians students from 40 years ago? oh that’s great you think that those students from the reign of Shah Pavli represent the modern Iranian regime!

/Back when the Shah fled Iranian college students were desperate to seek US citizenship, females Iranians offered americans money to marry them in droves here in Texas.
//

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By: paintcan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85094 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:52:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85094 I’m not a muslim and I’ve never even set foot in the ME. And other than a guy from Pakistan up here who used to own a gas station downtown, I haven’t even talked to a muslim in at least 40 years. And I’m not sure he was. And what difference does it make to you? You accuse me of bias against the Israelis in another post, but if I were an Arab, you would have an automatic bias against anything I said?

You haven’t read enough of my posts. You haven’t kept any of the recent history straight and a lot of people I know don’t think about it and don’t want to. A lot of people are willing to let the wars go on automatic and it is over their heads. The convergence of events in the economy is almost designed to keep people preoccupied with their own affairs and not consider the bigger picture. Their lives are not at stake so they are free to export their arrogance and aggression as a let to their frustration. A few young men I know are considering the military because that may be the only employment they will be able to find.

But what I saw in Rick’s book confirmed what I and many others thought was a war crime, although he never actually comes out and says that. He wants them to do it better and I hope they never do it again.

If you really need an explanation for my attitude it is this. For over 50 years I only heard the Israeli (Jewish) side of the argument but hardly ever saw anything in the mainstream press, or other media, about the Palestinians side. That wasn’t right. And if you are so simple minded about the issues that you think what is done to any Arab is acceptable, you don’t know how to think at all.

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By: VultureTX http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85061 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:08:20 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85061 @paintcan
what do you mean this country, you are a muslim (not sure if arab) living in the middle east according to your other posts.

/can’t keep your story or history straight it seems

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By: paintcan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85060 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:01:26 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85060 If anyone has read the Book “Fiasco” by Thomas Ricks – it was clear that those who most aided the insurgency in Iraq were the military personal themselves and those who were setting their priorities. Many of them looked at it as a glorious adventure. But the heavy handed mass arrests of all men that looked of military age,sometimes whole households on no charges and in the most insulting way possible, designed to show the contempt by the troops for those they said they were “saving”, the summary firing of their own military and the vacuum of authority and control it created, and on top of that, the influx of what can only be called carpet baggers to milk development funds for the country that basically were recycled by our own corporate elites, made an army of enemies who smelled, at the start, the gross deceit and greed of the occupiers. The wholesale lies about torture and abuse – sometimes of people who had no intelligence value at all – and the attempts to cover over the embarrassment that home grown sadists were perpetrating, and the total lack of accountability to anyone but those who managed the misery for their own gain or advancement of their agenda, were the most obvious signs the countries were being raped and exploited by the new Nazis. And what I heard about he war years – The Nazi high command and the troops had better manners and were better disciplined.

The Afghans are all on the take and the Iraqi’s weren’t that stupid. They now live with nearly daily terrorism and we fuss over old attacks that our “justice system” can’t get it’s dubious act together to pass judgment on.

We also know that there would have been no invasion of the ME had it been truly done in their interests and those funds had been handed to local contractors and had included more of their own manpower in greater positions of control and decision making. The appetite for invasion would have evaporated. Had any of the military been called up by a draft there would have been violence in the streets here. They would also have had to confront the problem of calling up women.

And the fact that the only thing the troops were certain they guarded at the start were the oil fields, is really all you have to know about this country’s double taking intentions in the whole region. Bin Laden’s son in law is too polite, in spite of his photo.

This is not an inherently honest country and its past decisions and foot dragging are proof that it doesn’t know what to do with the human problems it created.

Without a doubt, the enormous and ravenous appetites of this country rule every action that has typified the last ten plus years in the ME and continue to do so.

Some of us still have consciences and they are not for sale to the highest bidder. That has not been the case for most of the easily boosted war effort here. We do it on automatic as an adjunct to our standard of living and only others bleed.

Neither this country nor the court system, either civil or military really deserves much respect at this point. They get the verdicts they want to assuage popular opinion. You may as well ask prostitutes for justice.

You may as well ask a fat men to despise super sized portions and no amount of flattery, or the appearance of due process, will really disguise the stench.

BTW – it didn’t really take Rick’s book to come to this conclusion. I and many comments here were saying about the same thing during the past ten years. It was just so much more encouraging to see it it one place and to see the other military commanders who were saying similar things and not being widely listened too.

This country wants to be the New Roman Empire but lacks the graciousness and magnanimity of the old Romans. It is a needful machine now and it’s “soul” is irrelevant.

This country got what it deserved by the credit crash and if it ever tries imperial posturing again, I hope the bottom falls out of its “lifestyle” for good and all. I’m sure someday it will be forced to take some of its own medicine and I know the country will not react any better than either the Afghanistan or the Iraqi’s did. It will likely be so much worse.

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By: wildbiker http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85058 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:57:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85058 A simplistic world, with your point of view as stated above, would logically lead to simply killing each and every enemy combatant. A ‘no mercy’ approach to war. If a leader, religious or otherwise, incites war (insurgency or declared) should they be held accountable in a national, military, or international court? Enemy combatants (true enemy combatants taking an active role in waging war) are reasonably accountable in the military or national courts of the troops or citizens they took action against. Tradition has been to turn combatants not in uniform over to the military for summary execution. An extension of that could be a military trial. The Obama administration has transmuted that to civil criminal trial. And now we have the mess we have.

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By: Curmudgeon http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/03/26/swift-u-s-jury-verdict-gives-lie-to-gitmo/#comment-85057 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:28:36 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=29706#comment-85057 Hmm. I can appreciate your point of view, but you lack a logical chain in your argument. It’s not at all clear after reading this how a conviction of Abu Ghaith means that the continued incarceration of suspected terrorists at the Guantanamo Bay naval base (please stop saying Gitmo) is wrong. The US justice system takes many twists and turns, and due process can take a long time. You’ve not made any coherent argument that I can see around the fact that due process is not being served, or that it has anything to do with whether or not the prison at Guantanamo Bay is open or closed.

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