Comments on: Sykes-Picot drew lines in the Middle East’s sand that blood is washing away http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/ Thu, 21 Jul 2016 07:57:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: RobertMorrisIV http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95815 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:38:15 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95815 For goodness sake why is the US still trying to maintain the old UK/French border lines. It’s not worth an ounce of American blood (or anyone else’s) to keep trying to force the Kurds back under the control of Baghdad. We need some leadership here. Where is it??

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By: shillingfarmer http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95725 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 05:03:36 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95725 Good article. Thanks.

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By: From_California http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95714 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 01:50:11 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95714 This is just about the most conventional article and thinking imaginable.

Arab history 1 (not even 101) teaches that there were TWO (not one) major Arab caliphates. Without getting hypertechnical, the first long-lasting caliphate (from about a generation after the death of Mohammed) was ruled from Damascus and was therefore centered in Syria. After a century, it was replaced by the a much long-ruling caliphate dynasty in Baghdad. After that, the Arab world was ruled the Turks for many centuries up until a hundred years ago, and all of the Arab “countries” were simply provinces of the Turkish empire. There were some minor exceptions, but this is overwhelmingly the big picture. Thus Syria and Iraq have always been core units of the Arab world and always considered distinct,regardless of how many different peoples lived in those two regions under common rule.

European “colonialism” was never more than a negligible factor — the 25 years between the two world war, with never more than a tiny military presence, more like police than army. Sure, the Europeans hoped to rule, but their own wars and weakness made it impossible, and they had to split after 1945 in a hurry because they had no money or will for the task.(Hell, Britain had to leave INDIA at that time, which was really a British colony for over a century.) But the Arabs and the Persians love to claim that they were victims of Western imperialism, in part because it’s a distraction from their centuries-long humiliation by the Turks — a humiliation that the France and Britain actually ended for them. So what if a couple of diplomats drew a line in the mostly empty desert between Syria and Mesopotamia! The desert had always been the border between Mesopotamia (Iraq) and the Levant (Syria, Palestine, etc.) for thousands of years. No one cared much about the exact line while the whole thing was part of the Turkish empire.

Bottom line, “we” did nothing to these people except make their leaders rich by developing the petroleum reserves they still live off today and allowing their upper classes to become educated in the States and live in London. Of course, we supported the Shah in Iran, but believe it or not, a whole lot of Persians also supported him and would have done anything to avoid the clerical rule by ayatollahs they have today. And we used our military power to keep the old Soviet Union from rolling in and taking over all the oil production.

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By: Neurochuck http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95713 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 01:39:05 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95713 The defacto boundaries now do seem more “natural” than the post WW1 colonial mandates, but another cause to the conflict and tragedy in Iraq and Syria could be attributed to the “degradation” and “corruption” of the Ba’athist parties from a secular, nationalistic, arab-socialist, “vanguard party” program.
Over decades they seem to have become ruled by “tyrant” families and cliques, produced self serving elites, narrowed the support base to privileged ethnic groups, etc.
The wikipedia article gives some overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27athism
The anti-colonial aspect meant hostility from powerful Western interests, but the “Western Crusader Imperialists” should not take all the blame for the present and future chaos and conflict.

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By: Bookfan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95709 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 23:21:55 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95709 Nice article, I’d be just as sick of Westerners as these people are, the instability is a result of broken dysfunctional colonialism.

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By: khiggi http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95701 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 18:53:29 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95701 A few years ago Joe Biden was universally ridiculed for saying (essentially) that the US should be using our military occupation of Iraq to manage an orderly breakup of this artificially created country into three separate nations of cohesive populations. He had to furiously recant, but time has proven that he was absolutely correct.

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By: AlbinF http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95698 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 17:39:06 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95698 Also worth noting that the S-P agreement was devastating to the Arab-English alliance formed with the moderate Sunni Arabs via TE Lawrence. Lawrence of Arabia’s Arab friends and allies, because of the betrayal, lost leadership of the Arabian Peninsula to the Wahabbist Saudi family sheiks and were relegated to the minor kingdom of Jordan. Absent Sykes-Picot it is likely or at least possible that a greater Sunni kingdom under the moderates who were sidelined by it.

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By: Kahnie http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95696 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:53:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95696 Not only “infamous in Arab Eyes,” but infamous in students in the United States who are not Arabs. The author understates the attitude of learned students of the period after WWI and the mess it has cased in the Middle East and the world of that infamy. It was a tragedy of the highest order and we, the whole world, have been paying the price that the Brits and the French brought to the world because of their insatiable thirst for empire.

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By: Stanley7746 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95695 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:43:56 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95695 In 1985 I was driving through now Croatia. I spied a car with a broken section of drain pipe tied on its roof. The occupants looked to be having a great time that Saturday having found a new ‘part’ for their house. Yugoslavia had may fine houses that were built with money from working abroad. Built over many years, the owners rented a room or two to the tourist. Staying in their houses was a great window into the lives of locals. The problem with this tale is I was in a farming valley that was a Serbian enclave in Croatia. The war saw these people pack their belongings on trailers pulled by their tractors to Serbia leaving behind the life they had built over the generations.
Saying they will always fight each other, let them solve their own problems, ignores the individual stories of humanity: the families that are lost to the dominance of the machines of war. The Syrian Iraq conflict shows us a brutal side of international diplomacy that may invoke a strong approach avoidance feelings.

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By: Ideapete http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/#comment-95691 Sat, 25 Oct 2014 15:10:52 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/?p=35272#comment-95691 For a successful country – Reality trumps public relations – For nature ( Humanity ) will not be fooled.

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