Comments on: Will Indian army’s charm offensive work in Kashmir? http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/ Perspectives on South Asian politics Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:03:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: netizen http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17117 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:23:09 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17117 “You have trouble distinguishing between Tribalism and Casteism”Posted by Matrixx
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No. You are having difficulties in your efforts  to project a fake image of Pakistan  in this forum :-)

I am sure you know the extent of prevalence of castesim in Pakistan.  I’m posting this for the benefit of non-Pakistanis.

Ms. Shahbano Aliani works with the Thardeep Rural Development Programme and is based in Karachi, Pakistan.  This is what she has to say on the topic. 

http://reddiarypk.wordpress.com/2009/08/ 25/caste-in-pakistan/ 

EXCERPT:“Syeds (also known as Shahs in Sindh) claim to be the descendants of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) and are the highest caste in most places. In Punjab, the Ranas (Rajpoots), Chaudhurys and Maliks are considered higher caste, whereas the Kammis (workers), Chuhras (“untouchable” sweepers who are mostly Christian), Mussali (Muslim shaikh – menial workers) and Miraasi (musicians) are considered lower caste. In the NWFP, “lower castes” are referred to as Neech Zaat (low caste) and Badnasal (of bad lineage). In Balochistan the “lower castes” include Ghulams (slaves), Lohris (musicians), and Lachhis (Dalits). In Sindh, “high-caste” Muslims, in addition to Shahs and Syeds, include the Akhunds, Effendis, Soomros, Talpurs, and Pirs. Hajjams (barbers), Dhobis (washers), Kumbhars (potters), Maachis/ Mallahs (fisherfolk) and Bhajeer (Dalit converts to Islam) are considered “low caste”. In places like Swat, the Quom system is comparative to the Hindu caste system. Here, groups are divided rigidly according to occupation. Quoms do not intermarry or live together.

 The fact that caste is an important social identity for Pakistani Muslims is reinforced in matchmaking/ marriage services, where caste is one of the key attributes mentioned by prospective brides and grooms.”

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By: netizen http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17113 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:55:06 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17113 “Casteism is a Hindu issue.”

Casteism is a societal issue.
http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/arul appa.htm

Casteism amongst Muslims is described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_syste m_among_South_Asian_Muslims

This is in addition to the discrimination against non-Arab Muslims, practiced by Arab Muslims which has been extensively documented. Some have even come up with “theological” reasons to come up with perceived superiority of Arab Muslims.

We don’t even have to go into guaranteed 3rd class citizenship and ill-treatment meted out to non-Muslims in Pakistan and many other Muslim countries.

What are the odds of a Christian or a Hindu becoming a Prime Minister of Pakistan in the year 2010? They live in the fringe of the fringes in fear. Yet, Pakistan just passed a constitutional amendment requiring the Prime Minister should be a Muslim. This is in addition to already existing stipulations that only a Muslim can be the President, etc.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17111 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:15:46 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17111 Racism prevails across the whole South Asia. Pakistan alone is not full of it. I don’t know if anyone remembers the episode with Aussie cricketer Symonds during the one day series in India. I have seen Africans treated with utter contempt in India. East Pakistan problem was partly due to racial superiority complex where some of the West Pakistanis could not stomach being ruled by inferior Bengalis. And some who campaigned for Pakistan’s creation also had the motive stem from the same racist complex. During the rule of the Sultans in India, Afghans were prime runners of all canons. They never gave the local converts any chance to even come near them. When Mughals arrived and started pushing them down the order, Afghans rebelled. This is a human weakness. These kinds of prejudice is one of the primary reason for the division of humans. If we all need to co-exist and share the world’s resources, we need to eliminate racism and other forms of prejudice.

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By: trickey http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17108 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:56:41 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17108 @shahidkhan123,

“I sense you are bit sensitive about complexion. It was just one of the many differences in the photography.”

You alone possess the miraculous skills of being able to discern the culture, religion, practices, language of people in undies and uniforms, simply by looking at their photograph. Us mere mortals are unable to comprehend this, and therefore deride your comments as racist. But we salute your unique 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th senses, nevertheless.

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17104 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:53:34 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17104 Casteism is a Hindu issue, This is on the decease in India or becoming irrelevant, With reservations, people from “lower casts” are in high positions and people from “high casts” under them, practicing old ways is not possible.
This is not to say casteism does not exist.

With people converting, this high/low casts is not gone and is reflected what is mentioned here by some “Christian servants in Pakistani households are not permitted to touch kitchen utensils,” This is true and now the liability of Pakistan in this case (of course India in Indian cases).

@Skin Color: White superiority over darker color is both Indian and Pakistani problem.

Imran Khan, cricketer and politician who himself is a handsome guy with “fair complexion” has a track record of a racist.

http://khawerkhan.wordpress.com/2010/01/ 28/imran-khans-racism/

got into problem by attacking the person, who had darker complexion, he was having a debate withgot into this problem.

difference is hard officers

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17099 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:14:36 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17099 There is room for improvement definitely. First, Kashmiris have to demonstrate outside asking Pakistan to lay off. Any support for Pakistan will push India towards tightening the grip. Capture all militants that are coming in from Pakistan and hand them over to Indian authorities. If the two happen, it can help change the mindset of Indian authorities and the military. The reason why India is tightly holding Kashmir is because of the Pakistan factor. Pakistan has messed the whole thing up by driving insurgency close to 15 years. It is not easy to forget that. The last thing India wants is Kashmir going with Pakistan. From Indian standpoint, Kashmir is an extremely geo-strategic location from today’s perspective. We have China on one side and Pakistan on the other to balance out. And Kashmir is being thrust as a battle field to cause imbalance. India will never allow that. So they are trying to play the people of Kashmir to tip the balance. Kashmiris should understand this and stop tilting towards to Pakistan. Indians know the sympathy for Pakistan in Kashmir quite well. The whole thing has nothing to do with Kashmiris being majority Muslims. Until 1989, no one was oppressing Kashmiris. The whole thing started after Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. Pakistan planned the whole thing and launched Jihad in Kashmir and India responded to it. The goal was to inject venom into the hearts of Kashmiris and alienate them from India. They have succeeded in that effort. India cannot allow for that. So it is doing its part to assuage hurt sentiments. But so long as Pakistan and China are involved in the equation, India will not be inclined to give independence to Kashmir. The world powers understand India’s situation. India is in the same position as Turkey is in regards to Kurdish separatism.

The first effort should be to diffuse out the alienation. Kashmiris need to be given opportunities for employment and livelihood. Then over time, things will return to normal. If Pakistan tries to stir things up, Kashmiris should openly reject it. If that happens, goodwill will come from India. It has to be tried.

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17097 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 19:59:31 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17097 Matrix said:

> It was not enough to oppress Kashmir with half million Indian troops, now India will use Kashmiris against Kashmiris.

Yep, unlike in Azad Kashmir where Kashmiris have full rights to do as they please: http://bbc.in/dKo7xL

Does Azadi in Urdu mean something different from the original Persian?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17094 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 19:40:41 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17094 Shahidkhan123,

That’s right, keep your eyes tightly shut to all the changes happening in India. Don’t learn anything about India other than the stereotypes you were taught. Don’t read anything on the Internet that contradicts what you want to be told. That’s the way to be blindsided and left wondering, “What happened?” when your country is left far behind, both economically and socially.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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By: Matrixx http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17093 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 18:56:54 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17093 Netizen,
You have trouble distinguishing between Tribalism and Casteism. Any place where extended family is strong, it takes the form of Tribal pride. Then there is economic stratification. Rich socializing with rich and marrying into rich families. The question is whether there is social mobility between various groups? I will contend that there is social mobility in Pakistan and it becomes less in economic down turns.
In Caste system there is no social mobility. By the way, Raza Rumi is self styled liberal, who can’t see any positive in Pakistan.

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By: netizen http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2011/02/25/will-indian-armys-charm-offensive-work-in-kashmir/comment-page-1/#comment-17090 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:37:56 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/india/?p=4345#comment-17090 India now have a Kashmiri Muslim as a General in the Indian Army. His name is Major General Mohd. Amin Naik. As much as it is a matter of pride for the Kashmiris, it is also a reaffirmation that if one works hard he/she can have a hope of rising in India.

Secualrism, not discriminating based on any other divisive identity are highly cherished values in Indian army. Hope more Kashmiri youth will be recruited into Indian army.

About casteism, startification of society: Agreed. this is an evil that is haunting South Asia.

Here is a progressive pakistani criticizing this malady:

http://www.razarumi.com/2009/02/16/caste ism-alive-and-well-in-pakistan/

QUOTE” In Lahore, one finds hundreds of cars with the owner’s caste or tribe displayed as a marker of pride and distinctiveness. As an urbanite, I always found it difficult to comprehend the relevance of zaat-paat (casteism) until I experienced living in the peri-urban and sometimes rural areas of the Punjab as a public servant……

….. Who said casteism was extinct in Pakistan? My friends have not been allowed to marry outside their caste or sect, Christian servants in Pakistani households are not permitted to touch kitchen utensils,”

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