Comments on: The beautiful folly of the European experiment http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/ Wed, 13 Apr 2016 01:13:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: aristidis500 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-49 Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:25:55 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-49 Hariknaidu and friends: we don’t need an EU superstate to ‘prevent wars’. We are already so grown together that there will be no war. There will be however a dictatorship against the will of all populations of the member states. This toxic EU monstrosity is vehemently anti-democratic (look at the outrage when Papandreou uttered the word referendum!). It needs to go and replaced with the loose trade block everybody originally signed up for.

You find Krugman objectionable? I find people who casually hand over the sovereignty of their country objectionable.

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By: hariknaidu http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-48 Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:10:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-48 @scythe

Your point is well taken. There is nothing to argue….

Krugman is today writing about *European Romantics….* and more and calling his tribal (MIT) technocrats (Bernake, Draghi) sort of incompetent. That’s what I find objectionable…because they’ve to make decisions in difficult crisis which Krugman (in his Princeton) chair finds difficult to accept. Even my comments on his blog was blocked!

John was honestly giving his rendition of Euro Project history because he has studied it and cares about it.

Bottonm line, Euro Project is not a romantic idea; it is fundamentally a political concept to consign nation-state wars to dustbin of history – *No More Wars* that’s what de Gaulle and Adenauer tried to establish when they signed The Rome Treaty (1957).

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By: pavlaki http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-47 Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:13:22 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-47 I am passionately pro Europe but equally as adamant that the Euro zone is a mess, badly constructed and needs radical overhaul. Likewise the EU has turned into a wasteful, un democratic, top down authority instead of the free trade union it was founded upon. The people of Europe want to be close and yet still retain their individual identity and control of the administration of their day to day affairs. Fiscal and legal integration will happen – but slowly and by common consent not by diktat. The Euro / EU experiment has failed because it is too much, too soon and without the support of the populous. Time to start again.

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By: sarkozyrocks http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-46 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 23:09:30 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-46 In the aftermath of the impending Eurozone breakup, when analysts and historians write their reports explaining the failure to future generations, the answer is here in these comments on this article – many people just don’t get it…a profound lack of common sense / wisdom. Common sense / wisdom isn’t necessarily correlated positively with intelligence. A peasant farmer in Italy (anywhere) could probably have told the “academic elites” exactly why it wouldn’t work if they would have just asked him.

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By: sarkozyrocks http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-45 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 23:01:31 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-45 Outstanding article, and I rarely give that accolade. Wisdom…in hindsight. Why in hindsight? It is so clear and well understood by anyone with common sense.

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By: DanielCrickett http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-44 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:54:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-44 The European Union is a social, economic, and political scheme envisioned by plutocratic globalist international banksters, created as a means of control and extraction of national wealth from the sovereign nations across Europe. This has been a vision of these plutocratic globalist for decades. Through the power and influence of their massive wealth they have been successful in deceiving the continent of Europe that they would be better off under this system of social, economic, and political control. As this author said it so perfectly true, this was a scheme driven from the top down instead of from the bottom up. Whenever something like this happens, it only benefits the plutocracy. The European Union claims to be a deomcratic system, but the real truth is, it is a plutocracy, i.e. a continent controlled by wealthy families who control the continents central banking system, thus they control all of Europe through their money. Sadly, Europe is under the same plutocracy that the United States is under. This plutocracy, from their greed, will cause the economic collapse of the entire globe. It will require a further and intensified global awakening of the common man to realize the great jeopardy that faces him, his future, and his posterity in order for necessary political change to come about to avoid this doom that awaits the world.

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By: scythe http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-43 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:55:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-43 Hi hariknaidu, travelling through-out Central Europe and South East Europe, have had a majority positive responses to the EU. and membership of the community. But this means nothing vis a vis evidence.

It is not persuasive to argue at the grand level that “we, the people of Europe”, collectively find the European Union to be …. x, y, z. You need more substance than intermittent democracy in action, a la referendum results.

Nor is it persuasive to grandly dismiss the EU mode of governance and policy as a hegemony of elites or top down. Those criticisms are neither extraordinary nor useful and are common to many democracies.

The EU manages very complex relationships at the national, regional and individual level. It is extraordinary how it actually does this.

For example, track the pathway of how a Directive originates, to its implementation in national law and the role of the European Court of Justice to enforce it (e.g. promotion of renewable energy and ECJ rulings to ensure alternative suppliers have fair access to the main grid).

It was argued that John needed to consider more evidence to strike a balance and exercise caution when using unsubstantiated claims to support his argument.

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By: FBreughel1 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-42 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:28:51 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-42 @NukerDoggie, hariknaidu, matthewslyman: Great remarks and thanks for that. I just want to add that the expansion in 2007 was way beyond any EU can manage.

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By: matthewslyman http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-41 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:32:16 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-41 It’s only 150 years since Americans were shooting at each other to preserve/recreate a union of North and South… And the confederate South’s resentment about their losses required over a century of ideological indoctrination to overcome.

Europe is much closer together than America was back then, are we not? The removal of border restrictions, the free passage of trade… That alone has a tendency to create the kind of personal unity that we require, to build the political and fiscal union that must follow. Most Europeans already have close family members living in other European countries, and already conduct a significant amount of their personal business affairs with suppliers and clients abroad.

On the other hand, Europe has NOT been built on the principles of its inhabitants… Instead it has been assembled as a project of a coterie of insiders, who had a personal agenda, and were unduly influenced by various political and business lobby groups to give them unfair attention and disproportionate “rights” under European law. Focus-groups and committees have been convened to write laws that should have been written instead by inspired men, as the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights were. The resulting “rights” laws are a hodge-podge of self-contradicting nonsense, that often violates principles that are obvious to any common European man – allowing offenders to get off lightly because their “human rights” might be violated if the basic principles of justice should be served! Or in other cases, supporting the “equality” of certain minorities whose identities are specifically enshrined in the founding documents of Europe, to such an extent that the natural rights and freedoms of ordinary people are curtailed. Paradoxically, the purported cause of “equality” therefore serves some much better than others, the rights of one group of people not to have their personal sensibilities offended, overruling the rights of another group of people to be allowed to live according to their conscience in a manner that does actual harm to no-one…

This is not a Europe that its inhabitants can indefinitely support.

An interesting BBC article on the latest developments on the financial side of things…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15789 385

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By: hariknaidu http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2011/11/18/the-beautiful-folly-of-the-european-experiment/#comment-40 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 18:56:51 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/?p=30#comment-40 Let us be fair to John and not claim more han what he has written. And he has written well with compassion and justice to the European Project. There are lots of citizens who have come to similar conclusions. They’re dismayed and confused with out top-down EU management by politicians who are increasingly sounding like Wilder’s in Netherlands today – let’s reconsider Dutch Guilders!

But if you’ve spent professional time in Brussels with the fascilitating everf closer union and economic integration, you’re more than dismayed how current EU
leaders have handled the debt crisis.

I suppose it is difficult to understand concepts like sovereign debt, insolvency and debt contagion. However they’ll henceforth become the lingua-franca of EU – going forward. Beware!

The crisis is fundamentally not a Euro currency crisis.

It is essentially a state solvency problem of deficits larger than Stability & Growth Pact legally allowed under EMU.

Good things are happening in places like Athens and Rome, Lisabon, Madrid and Dublin. And, subject to Italian Parliament and its decision-making capacity, it will take Italy 2 or more years to become solvent again. The bond spreads will come down, as Monti’s regime takes action to bring down debt/GDP ratio.

Greece is a more difficult case of a sovereign default. But I doubt EU will allow Greece to sink alone without any external help to recover.

Remember *sweet are the uses of adversity*.

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