Opinion

Lawrence Summers

The jobs crisis

By Lawrence Summers
June 13, 2011

By Lawrence H. Summers
The opinions expressed are his own.

Even with the massive 2008-2009 policy effort that successfully prevented financial collapse and Depression, the United States is now half way to a lost economic decade. Over the last 5 years, from the first quarter of 2006 to the first quarter of 2011, the U.S. economy’s growth rate averaged less than 1 percent a year, about like Japan during the period when its bubble burst. At the same time the fraction of the population working has fallen from 63.1 to 58.4 percent, reducing the number of those with jobs by more than 10 million. The fraction of the population working remains almost exactly at its recession trough and recent reports suggest that growth is slowing.

Beyond the lack of jobs and incomes, an economy producing below its potential for a prolonged interval sacrifices its future. To an extent that once would have been unimaginable, new college graduates are this month moving back in with their parents because they have no job or means of support. Strapped school districts across the country are cutting out advanced courses in math and science and in some cases only opening school 4 days a week. And reduced incomes and tax collections at present and in the future are the most important cause of unacceptable budget deficits at present and in the future.

You cannot prescribe for a malady unless you diagnose it accurately and understand its causes. Recessions are times when there is too little demand for the products of businesses, and so they fail to employ all those who want to work. That the problem in a period of high unemployment like the present one is a lack of business demand for employees not any lack of desire to work is all but self-evident. It is demonstrated by the observations that (i)the propensity of workers to quit jobs and the level of job openings are at near-record low levels; (ii) rises in nonemployment have taken place among essentially all demographic skill and education groups; and (iii) rising rates of profit and falling rates of wage growth suggest that it is employers, not workers, who have the power in almost every market.

I belabor the idea that lack of demand is the fundamental cause of economies producing below their potential because the failure to recognize the centrality of demand can have catastrophic consequences. But for Hitler and the military buildup up he caused, FDR would have left office in early 1941 a failure, with American unemployment above 15 percent and with the recovery promise of the New Deal shattered by the premature attempt in 1937 to reassert the traditional virtues of deficit reduction and inflation control. When I entered the Clinton administration in 1993, it was generally believed that Japan had the potential to grow its economy by 4 percent a year going forward, enough to have doubled output from that time until now. Instead output has barely grown, a consequence of the post-bubble stagnation that Japan suffered.

A sick economy constrained by demand works very differently than a normal one. Measures that usually promote growth and job creation can have little effect or can actually backfire. When demand is constraining an economy, there is little to be gained from increasing potential supply. In a recession, if more people seek to borrow less or save more, there is reduced demand and hence fewer jobs. Training programs or measures to increase work incentives for those with both high and low incomes may affect who gets the jobs, but in a demand-constrained economy will not affect the total number of jobs. Most paradoxically, measures that increase productivity and efficiency, if they do not also translate into increased demand, may actually reduce the number of people working as the level of total output remains demand constrained.

Traditionally, the American economy has recovered robustly from recession as demand has been quickly renewed. Within a couple of years after the only two deep recessions of the post World War II period–those of 1974-1975 and 1980-1982–the economy was growing in the range of 6 percent or more–rates that seem inconceivable today. (See chart below.) Why?

Inflation dynamics defined the traditional post-War American business cycle. Recoveries continued and sometimes even accelerated until they were murdered by the Federal Reserve with inflation control as the motive. When the Fed became concerned about inflation accelerating, usually too late, it raised interest rates and crunched credit,  stifling housing, business investment, and consumer durable purchases and causing the economy to go into recession. After inflation slowed, rapid recovery propelled by dramatic reductions in interest rates and a backlog of deferred investment was almost inevitable.

Our current situation is very different. With more prudent monetary policies, expansions are no longer cut short by rising inflation and the Fed hitting the brakes. All three American expansions since Paul Volcker brought inflation back under control have run long. They end after a period of overconfidence drives the prices of capital assets too high and the apparent increases in wealth give rise to excessive borrowing, lending and spending.

After bubbles burst there is no pent up desire to invest. Instead there is a glut of capital caused by overinvestment during the period of confidence–vacant houses, malls without tenants, and factories without customers. At the same time consumers discover that they have less wealth than they expected, less collateral  to borrow against and are under more pressure than they expected from their creditors. Little wonder that private spending collapses and that post bubble economic downturns often last more than a decade and are only ended through external events like military buildups.

Pressure on private spending is enhanced by structural changes. Take as a vivid example the publishing industry. As local bookstores have given way to megastores, megastores have given way to internet retailers, and internet retailers have given way to ebooks, two things have happened. The economy’s productive potential has increased and its ability to generate demand that fulfills the potential has been compromised as resources have been transferred from middle class retail and wholesale workers with a high propensity to spend up the scale to those with a much lower propensity to spend. And the need for capital investment in distribution networks has come down.

What then is to be done? This is no time for fatalism or for traditional political agendas that the two parties have pushed in more normal times. The central irony of financial crisis is that while it is caused by too much confidence, borrowing and lending, and spending it is only resolved by increases in confidence, borrowing and lending, and spending. It follows that the central objective of national economic policy until sustained recovery is firmly established must be increasing confidence, borrowing and lending, and spending. Unless and until this is done other policies, no matter how apparently appealing or effective in normal times, will be futile at best.

We should recognize that it is a false economy to defer infrastructure maintenance and replacement and instead take advantage of the a moment when 10-year interest rates are below 3 percent and construction unemployment approaches 20 percent to expand infrastructure investment.

It is far too soon for financial policy to shift towards preventing future bubbles and possible inflation and away from assuring adequate demand. The underlying rate of inflation is still trending downward and the problems of insufficient borrowing and investing exceed any problems of overconfidence. The Dodd-Frank legislation is a broadly appropriate response to the hugely important challenge of preventing any recurrence of the events of 2008. It needs to be vigorously implemented. But under-, not over-confidence is the problem of the moment and needs to be the focus of policy.

More concretely, the fiscal debate needs to take on board the reality that the greatest threat to the nation’s creditworthiness is a sustained period of slow growth that, as in southern Europe, causes debt-GDP ratios to soar. This means that essential discussions about medium-term measures to restrain spending and raise revenues need to be coupled with a focus on near-term growth. Without the payroll tax cuts and unemployment insurance negotiated by the President and Congress last fall we might well be looking today at the possibility of a double dip. Substantial withdrawal of fiscal support for demand at the end of 2011 would be premature. Fiscal support should be continued and indeed expanded by providing the payroll tax cut to employers as well as employees. Raising the share of the payroll tax cut from 2% to 3% would be desirable as well. At a near term cost of a little over $200 billion, these measures offer the prospect of significant improvement in economic performance over the next few years translating into significant increases in the tax base and reductions in necessary government outlays.

It is appropriate that policy in other dimensions be informed by the shortage of demand that is a defining characteristic of our economy. For example, the Obama administration is doing important work in promoting export growth by modernizing export controls, promoting U.S. products abroad and reaching and enforcing trade agreements. Much more could be done through changes in visa policy, for example, to promote exports of tourism as well as education and health services. In a similar vein recent Presidential directives regarding relaxation of inappropriate regulatory burdens should be rigorously implemented to boost confidence.

All of this is important, even essential. But the place to start is with the Hippocratic Oath–Do No Harm. And that means that every measure that comes out of Washington needs to be evaluated on the basis that it will not reduce the demand for goods and services at a time when America’s economy has been and will remain profoundly demand constrained.

Comments
39 comments so far | RSS Comments RSS

America has been in a Depression since 2007 and a
Great Depression since 2010 and the economy continues to get worse with each passing day.

The problem is so many jobs have been outsourced overseas to India and China and there is practically zero job creation in America.

Congress needs to pass The New Deal to create 200 million jobs that pay enough to support a family and have full medical benefits and enough to pay a mortgage.

Companies need to create jobs in America.

The real unemployment rate is north of 25% and continues to rise.

A simple example is the new Bay Bridge in San Francico was entirely made in China and is merley being assembled by Americans.

Nearly everthing in America is now Made in China and that needs to change. America should be competing in engineering and manufacturing with Japan, China, Germany, and India.

Most software in America was coded in India. That needs to change too.

Without middle class jobs in America college graduates are being reduced to peasants living on foodstamps. I should know since my programming job was outsourced to India.

Posted by TahoeWriter | Report as abusive
 

And this is what was touted as the Word from on high? He lies right out of the box: the “massive 2008-2009 policy effort” was not at all massive. In fact, it was trillions below what real progressive economists predicted was needed to ward off exactly what is happening today. Furthermore, no where in this article does he either diagnose the malady correctly or prescribe the full dose of medicine needed. Bush tax cuts and out-of-control war spending have sunk our economy. The prescription? End the wars and tax the rich. Put that in your pipe Summers!

Posted by cautious123 | Report as abusive
 

The recent travails of the US economy have gone hand in hand with an intellectual crisis among US economists, which started with failure to foresee what was coming in 2006-07 and has since continued with the ongoing inability to explain today’s economic reality. Nothing really meaningful has come out of the mainstream in the past couple of years and the “borrow more, spend more” is not only becoming boring but is clearly the wrong policy prescription given the empirical evidence from the last three years.

Posted by Tseko | Report as abusive
 

Perhaps some of the greatest understatements ever printed. No recovery will occur without jobs for the middle class and a change in the political administration in both the legislative and executive branches. Prudent leadership for the country appears to be on the way to extinction at this juncture.

Posted by Wassup | Report as abusive
 

Economists like Bernanke and Summers seem oblivious to the fact that the US is a Nation of consumers that pay with green colored engraved IOU’s printed by the Federal Reserve. Most of our Manufacturing and a lot of our high tech services have been shipped overseas to China and India and the low grade stuff to Vietnam, Bangladesh, and Central America.. we buy houses we cannot afford except with IOU’s and when credit gets cut off, we stop buying… The solution does not lie in printing more money as Summers and Roubini et al urge… but to reverse outsourcing ..

Posted by Bludde | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Summers effectively and precisely points out the flaws in our economy. The question is, will we do anything about it?

Posted by NickBright | Report as abusive
 

When consumers find that most of the products in stores are produced overseas (read, “China”) as a direct result of unfair trade practices and currency controls that make Chinese products unreasonably cheap, there is no incentive for American manufacturers to produce those products. Then, with a U.S. Government that acts as an “enabler” by apparently refusing to face facts and do something about them, the situation simply spirals downward. Why should a manufacturer produce shoes, TV sets, Clothing, or any other product when foreign products will undercut prices to a point that survival is impossible ? Simpler to outsource or move the factory overseas and survive.
What we need is a strong and credible trade policy that rewards “Fair” trade and punishes “Free” trade. Other nations cannot be “Free” to engage in trade piracy !

Posted by searider | Report as abusive
 

The economic reality is driven by the politics of entitlement which pervades the entire system and that is the problem in a nutshell and it is not clear that this is an issue that can be solved by the system in place with the possible exception of the base detail in the constitution mandating that a broken government should be removed and replaced by a new one.

Posted by FDale | Report as abusive
 

My response to his suggestions:
I agree with the infrastructure investment. It needs to go beyond just fixing to advancing the state of the nation. In other words, higher speeds are the ultimate goal. Everything needs to move faster and more reliably than anywhere else in the world. Privatizing could be a way to get Republicans to buy into it.
Dodd-Frank is a bit of a smoke screen. Of course, the government should not be in the business of telling bankers how and who to lend to or why. The current problem is loan restrictions. The best way to get lending flowing again is for the Fed to lower rates to negative and allow people with Prime credit to refinance their mortgages at .25% through the IRS (business and home mortgages at 60% or less LTV).
Tiny tax cuts and visa policy will not fix the trade police problems that were hidden by excessive lending. Ultimately, 2-3% does not compare to being able to hire someone overseas for 75-90% less than an American worker. Increasing tariffs on low-wage countries will go a long way to closing the budget gap and increasing economic growth in the US.

Posted by M.C.McBride | Report as abusive
 

I do not agree with M C McBride. Moving faster is not the answer. It makes mistakes occur more often and makes the ups and downs worse. What is my solution. Start by bringing everyone in on the planning process for the nation. What you have now is a nation of slaves working for the US and world elite. No freedom here. Continue on the present course and face uprisings in the country and secession of states when they do not have representation in Washington.

Posted by fred5407 | Report as abusive
 

No Jobs = No Recovery. How much simpler does it need to be?

Posted by GLK | Report as abusive
 

So, if I may summarize (couldn’t resist) we have……

1. We have slack demand in the economy because of consumer’s negative propensity to borrow and spend.

2. The solution is to encourage borowing and spending? (I guess that we’re supposed to go back to the “good ol days”).

3. Another solution to the slack demand would be to spend on infastructure maintanance.

Infastructure maintenance is a great idea Larry. It’s a shame you didn’t write this column about three years ago.

I guess that you were too busy. TARP and the various stimulus packages that were provided to the financial services industry surely too a lot of time to construct.

So, now that we’re $14,000,000,000,000.00 in debt (enough money to make millionares of 14 million Americans)we’re supposed to borrow again for infastructure maintenance?

I only have my Bachelor of Science Degree in Economics, but hasn’t anyone heard of regression to the mean?

Do they teach that concept anymore?

MIA

Posted by Missinginaction | Report as abusive
 

Saw a great chart the other day that shows that productivity of the American workers has shot up dramatically since the dotcom boom (and bust) in 99-00. Lots of people like to think that the whole economy was sent to China; I like to think that America got too effecient and the slavish factory jobs that people seem to think are awesome were sent elsewhere or replace by robotics. To me the solution lies in education… WTF is a liberal arts education? People should be trained on building/designing/maintaining electronics and then there would be jobs a plenty. There are probably 3-400k IT jobs just begging for someone to do but ‘the people’ don’t have the expertise. The other side of that coin should be that post-secondary education should be more affordable so that people are more able to study into the fields were jobs are available. Pining for zero-education slave labour to return is moronic… lets get educated and better ourselves and our society rather than conducting a race to the bottom.

Posted by CDN_Rebel | Report as abusive
 

I totally agree with cautious. Why this guy has a pedestal to speak from is beyond me. This can be equated to asking the captain of the Titanic how to avoib icebergs.
The last thing this country needs to do now is return the confligrate consumerism of the past – unless it is made in America buying. Return taxes to pre-Reagan days – for that matter return everything to pre-Reagan. The Gipper and the Gipperists have really f-ed this country up.

Posted by mutt3003 | Report as abusive
 

Just to add to my previous post. Summers should be shown upon by spotlights as to why Harvard is not what they are made out to be!

Posted by mutt3003 | Report as abusive
 

Demand comes from employees, preferably from employees with good jobs. Solve it by lowering the corporate income tax, get the corporations and their factories back into the US with all their money and good jobs.

Posted by Bernie777 | Report as abusive
 

The US economy is experiencing a deflation of the inflated wage/benefits obtained during the post WWII era, with the resulting pressure and certain restructuring of debt both consumer and business. A prime example of this is the drop in the value of housing. This downward pressure will continue for at least the next 3 years, if not more, but will result in a more competitive manufacturing base. Government efforts to prevent this pain will only prolong it for everyone. I say this as a 54 yr old man who is seeking work and will likely be evicted due to my inability to pay for my housing due to lack of income.

Posted by wmaclough | Report as abusive
 

A person who actually knows what it is like to be unemployed and looking for work should have gotten the job of writing this column. Sadly, there are plenty of unemployed people with or without advanced degrees available. This man was in power, had the chance to create jobs, but did not. His time is over, give this column to a person who knows how to build businesses (in America).

Posted by chem73 | Report as abusive
 

1) remove fiscal deduction for outsourcing.
2) impose import tariff on manufactured goods produced with substandard labor laws (i.e. mainly all Asia), still maintaining free trade “facade”.
3) reduce fiscal pressure especially for manufacturing companies totally located in the USA
3) invest in infrastructure and green technologies that use USA made products only.

The above should do it… if done soon.

Posted by robb1 | Report as abusive
 

1) remove fiscal deduction for outsourcing.
2) impose import tariff on manufactured goods produced with substandard labor laws (i.e. mainly all Asia), still maintaining free trade “facade”.
3) reduce fiscal pressure especially for manufacturing companies totally located in the USA
4) invest in infrastructure and green technologies that use USA made products only.

The above should do it… if done soon.

Posted by robb1 | Report as abusive
 

Do you think maybe a .01 return on savings and widespread 7% sales tax rates have anything to do with demand ?

Posted by clankie | Report as abusive
 

It is not possible to compete with virtual America.

There are two kind of Americans in the job market, Virtual Americans and Americans.

Virtual Americans live abroad, and are not American residents.

Virtual Americans enjoys job stability & careers,

Americans lose their skills overtime due to underemployment or no employment.

Departments inside Large organizations with huge infrastructures give out huge contracts on fixed prices to consulting outfits to manage their services in order to support IT services within the assigned budget.

Manage services companies in turn give it out to companies that ultimately outsource the work after few months of learning curve.

As an American I am able to find work for short term, and then I see people being laid off, and jobs moving out to India.

Many Top management companies engaged in managed services are generally Indians, and they show their cost performance to their bosses by giving out to companies that have resources abroad and H1Bs.

They call it BPO, KPO etc; Basically it means processes that deal with outsourcing of business, knowledge.

Outsourcing is the root cause of the problem, and is ground reality that we cannot ignore.

It is like a hole in some vessel, no matter how much you fill it, it will be empty or low.

Obama tried to fill the vessel withe billions of dollars of spending & rescue, but the benefit at the most has been jobless recovery due to the hole in the vessel.

Obama and others need to put in place robust policies to encourage hiring, like tax incentives on capital investment, tax breaks on payrolls created, eliminating payroll taxes, elimination of tax breaks being given for shipping jobs.
Obama will end up on term president, otherwise.

Posted by Bob_Andersen | Report as abusive
 

I have not seen any comments regarding the Minimal Wage. In the global economy, we can not successfully compete with this artificially imposed barier. I understand the political fallout of any move in this direction, but I see no other way of bringing the manufactoring jobs back. The white color jobs pay will eventually level off with the similar jobs in India and China. In this respect, economy is not all that different from thermodynamics.

The only other alternative is to hide in the shell of protectionism.

Posted by mru | Report as abusive
 

The arguments posted here against free trade miss the point. While jobs have been offshored to India and China (and many other countries), they are in industries where the US no longer possesses a comparative advantage. This creates a situation where workers who have lost jobs in these industries need to be retrained if they do not have flexible job skills or a high level of education, leading to structural unemployment if retraining does not occur. Education is the key here! It is the prescription for job loss and goes hand in hand with our need as a nation to continue to be on the forefront of technology development and creation of new industries. Technology development, creation of new high-tech industries, and education of a flexible, highly skilled workforce will enable us to compete in a global environment and ensure that we continue to enjoy comparative advantage.

Posted by mcn78704 | Report as abusive
 

The payroll tax cut was pennies on the dollar for most Americans. Summers simply wants to give American corporations more money at the expense of the elderly by diminishing Social Security. American businesses have an effective tax rate of less than 14% and multi-national American corporations have an effective tax rate of 2.3%. The hold nearly $2 trillion in excess cash reserves, which they are afraid to spend and thereby create jobs. What Americans needs is for the federal government to give them their tax money directly so they can spend it, and not just a few pennies. It can not go to Wall Street or corporations. They already receive far too much. Mr. Summers doesn’t understand that his mantra and Republican dogma suggesting that corporations and investors create job is a falsehood. If it were true (we have now heard the garbage for more than 3 decades), Americans would have jobs, corporations would be tax much more, jobs would not be sent overseas and corporation rewarded through tax credits for doing it, and they certainly would not be so un-American as to sit on $2 trillion dollars and not help their fellow Americans. Mr. Summers should shut up.

Posted by Jaay | Report as abusive
 

We can talk and bicker all we want about economic maladies and prescriptions for the same, but I’m dismayed to find not a single post addressing the true root of our problems – our system for electing our representatives! Of course they are going to vote for the people who finance their campaigns – hello! NAFTA, et al and all these being jobs being outsourced? Conceived by and delivered by multinational corporations who can make more money paying assembly line workers in Mexico $3/hr with no benefits in than paying a US citizen a living wage here in the States. Deregulation of the banks and the ensuing disaster? Thank those in Washington who decided it was more important to remain in “power” than to do the right thing by the country. I truly believe that most people, given the chance, are generous and caring about their fellow man, but this system we have now encourages the opposite. George Washington turned down offers to make him King, because he (and most of the rest of our Founding Fathers) knew that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. For each of you reading this, let me ask – would you really take away food from a hungry person or a book from a child anxious to learn in order to give your shareholders an extra three pennies dividend this quarter? Doesn’t that seem a little, how shall I put this … soulless? If Paul Revere was ringing bells it was because he was psychic and trying to warn people of the future coming of a faux Tea Party (those Patriots actually cared about their country – not just their own pocketbook!) (Couldn’t resist a little dig at the biggest idiot still in the news)

Posted by TomKat99 | Report as abusive
 

Will the Summer’s wash, rinse, repeat plan for the payroll tax cut and curl give your hair that volume and bounce you’ve been looking for; borrow… lend… spend… repeat? Your hair will look like you’ve lost decades when you invoke Volker into a fashionable solution to cover the gray.

Sure you use the most expensive confidence in the world… but you’re worth it.

http://tradewithdave.com/?p=6929

Dave Harrison
http://www.tradewithdave.com

Posted by daveharrison | Report as abusive
 

Wait until the regressive Republicans cut domestic spending, and give another tax cut to the wealthy, we’ll be in two decades of decline and economic stagnation.

Posted by seattlesh | Report as abusive
 

Jaay, by all means enlighten us regarding the following statement:

“Mr. Summers doesn’t understand that his mantra and Republican dogma suggesting that corporations and investors create job is a falsehood.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I suspect corporations and investors have something to do with job creation. Herein lies the problem, i.e., a liberal segment of the population who believes corporations and investors are the problem and can’t think beyond parroting the party line.

Who, then, creates the jobs??? I’m all ears.

Posted by ToTheRight | Report as abusive
 

@Missinginaction. you are the only one I have seen to correctly call this what it is, a regression to the mean, this is not only true for our domestic economy but for our economy and wealth on the world stage as well. I started calling this “The Great Leveling” back in the mid to late 90′s. there is a giant pull from so many humans who have soooo much less than we do. so far it has been ignored, and/or possibly not even recognized.

Posted by urkllngme | Report as abusive
 

ToTheRight,
Yes corporations and investors create most jobs. However, those “job creators” have been morally bankrupt for quite awhile. I worked for a very large corporation for twenty years. They started cutting hourly workers wages in the mid 1990s and the seperation in earned dollars between the administration and the hourly producers has grown larger in each passing year with or without a recession. The hourly producers used to by homes, cars, furniture and etc. Now, they new workers rent apartments, buy used cars, used furniture and etc. Henry Ford had it figured out, but somewhere along the way we lost the ability to think like he did. Human eugenics was a passing phase in the middle of the last century. We are seeing applied now in economics.

Posted by medic | Report as abusive
 

It would not hurt to put in place a moratorium on charities for developed countries such as China, India ETC. I do not know what compels a struggling nation to continue to toss money to fully functional economies.

Posted by Intriped | Report as abusive
 

As I suffer several financial strains myself and lack of proper info over if I’ll keep getting my money daily, I want to declare that any lasting solution will be declared through here and here only by adding a comment.

Posted by ta-boo | Report as abusive
 

Destroying confidence in the economic system itself causes the worst type of recession. And the Republicans are expert at building bubbles that can’t last. But throwing too much money at the problem only decreases the confidence further, because it builds up a huge debt that everyone knows has to be repaid eventually.

I suggest reducing the government spending gradually, and letting the recession take its course. The problem then is political, since no president wants to be in that position. It is better than a depression though.

Posted by Jim1648 | Report as abusive
 

wmaclough is quite correct, and knows more than most of the economists. But the problem is political at this point, since no president wants to see the economy just muddle along, as it must do for a few years more until we get competitive in the world again.

Most likely, the cures will be worse than the disease, but I think the Republican cures will get us into Great Depression II faster.

Posted by Jim1648 | Report as abusive
 

It is not worth paying attention what ever Lawrence Summers has to say! He has been responsible for mess in USA during Clinton and Obama Administration. He is wrong on almost all his theories, but still is arrogant (and reason kicked out as 27th President of Harvard University; the best decision Harvard since 1636!!!).

Posted by KMull | Report as abusive
 

There will be no restoration in “confidence” until we see banksters in orange jumpsuits doing the perp walk.

Posted by lambertstrether | Report as abusive
 

78wwy3Ht,

We had better do it quickly before the coming Dust Bowl II takes out the Great Plains.

Posted by Jim1648 | Report as abusive
 

Texicano said: “Our government collects more in taxes than a quarter of the earth!’….. that is a lie, flat out….
I would like to report this as abusive, but Reuters won’t accept ‘lie’s’ as a reason for abusiveness….

Posted by edgyinchina | Report as abusive
 

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