The fog of war on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border

June 12, 2008

Pakistani soldier near the borderPakistan’s Frontier Corps soldiers and U.S. led coalition-led troops just over the ill-defined border in Afghanistan must have been barely a few hundred yards apart on Tuesday night when 11 Pakistani soldiers were killed in an air strike that has touched off a new row between the two allies.

But their accounts of what really happened  in the frontier region of Mohmand are very different and sketchy, and to add to the confusion,  there is a third version from the Pakistan Taliban.

The Americans are saying they retaliated after coalition troops came under small arms fire and rocket propelled grenade fire about 200 yards inside Afghanistan’s Kunar province during an operation that had been previously coordinated with Pakistan.

The coalition fired artillery, and then used drones to locate more “anti-Afghan forces”, launched air strikes until the “threat was eliminated”.  The coalition also said that they informed the Pakistan Army that troops were being attacked from a wooded area near the Pakistani border checkpoint where the Pakistani Frontier Corps troops were killed.

Tribesmen check the torn clothes of a man killed by U.S. air strikeWrong, the Pakistan Army is saying. The trouble, according to Pakistani officials, began on Tuesday after Afghan troops tried to set up a post on a mountain ridge in a contested part of the frontier and Pakistani security forces told them to withdraw.

The Afghan forces were attacked inside Afghanistan by insurgents as they were withdrawing, the Pakistan Army said. And so they called in air strikes which hit the Pakistani Frontier Corps troops across the border.

A spokesman for the Pakistan Taliban said U.S. and Afghan forces were  setting up a position on the Pakistani side of the border,  and so its fighters launched an attack on coalition forces. Eight Taliban were killed in the U.S. bombing, it said.

So what happens now? Trust between the two allies has been broken as Reuters correspondent Zeeshan Haider says in this piece.  The role of the Frontier Corps, drawn from the Pashtun tribes in the Federally Administered Territories, has come under focus. Think tanks in Washington have raised doubts about their resolve and questioned the loyalties of these troops.

And then there is the larger political fallout of the deadliest air strikes in recent days. The lawyers’ ”long march” to Islamabad for the reinstatement of judges fired by President Pervez Musharraf may turn into an anti-American rally following the air strike.

Passions are already running high against Musharraf his main supporter, America,  and it won’t be long before it gets focused into an anti-American rally with demands for justice for the deaths of the soldiers.
 

26 comments

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/

Coincidentally, this atrocity committed against a sovereign nation comes at the same time as a US Congressional Committee report found that America is viewed unfavourably by 82 per cent of people in Arab countries. Its popularity has fallen 45 per cent in Indonesia and 27 per cent in the UK.

Given the arrogance of statements from Washington following the killing of these 11 Frontier Corps soldiers, there won’t be much of an upswing in US popularity in Pakistan.

“They got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, said a Pentagon official. — Oh, pardon us for being bombed to shreds by your planes while on duty in our own country.

And another Pentagon mouthpiece declared that “every indication we have at this stage is that it was a legitimate strike in self-defence.” Self defence? — So the death of Pakistani troops, killed by a dozen 500 pound bombs from two F-15E fighter-bombers and a B-1 bomber, is perfectly all right in the Pentagon’s book, because the strike was regarded as “legitimate self-defence.”

Ask the grieving parents, widows and children of these soldiers what “legitimacy” means.

There can hardly be a Pakistani — or many other people round the world in similar circumstances, for that matter — who could regard the US with less than detestation, given its contemptuous official dismissal of the deaths of soldiers belonging to a friendly nation.

And it’s not surprising that the Taliban don’t need any recruiting posters.

Posted by beecee | Report as abusive

Taliban reported that they lost eight fighter. Pakistan report they lost 11 troops. Are these eight fighters included in 11 dead reported by Pakistan?

Posted by ma | Report as abusive

This is nothing. It just a beginning. Pakistan’s Army deserves more. Do not cry now, remember the time you strike innocent. They were asking mercy, and you were barbaric, now you have to face the same. You choice to become loyal to those who themselves not loyal to them. Now, it times for you to get pride of your loyalty.

Pakistan God Bless You….sorry I can not say same word for Na-Pak-Army (Dirty Army).

Posted by Salahuddin Munshi | Report as abusive

This wasn’t an “atrocity committed against a sovereign nation”. Foolish rhetoric like that only inflames an already sad situation. The strike was called in because the troops were being attacked. Soldiers under attack, attack back. Exactly what they should do. The Pentagon’s verbal response may have been inadequate but that does not mean the attack was not appropriate. Foolish rhetoric and irresponsible reporting is why the opinion of the United States is so low. (If, indeed, that report is accurate.) Perhaps we need more reporting on why so many people from those countries are still trying to come to the United States of America for college, other training and careers.

Posted by E. W. | Report as abusive

A typical cheap american act of sponsering world terrorism. America is trying to spread terrorism in Pakistan and is a direct supporter of the tehrik e taliban. Why the fuck was abdullah mehsud released from guantanamo bay and why first thing he did after coming back was bomb innocent Pakistanis and murder them and also kidnap chinese civilians? Why was jallaluddin haqani who is now a commander of taliban in waziristan invited by them to become prime minister of Afghanistan? Americans are an enemy of the nation and we have to realize this. Baitullah Mehsud and TEK must be destroyed and are all under the payroll of US. It is impossible for them to get the funds and resourses and also the type of equipment they are getting to mass murder innocents. When there are 2-3 bombings each day in a region that was once peaceful you understand something is wrong.

The americans are extremely untrustworthy and enemies rather than allies. They are in no way allies as proven by the nuclear deal with India which is against the balance of power in the region and by the deliberate strikes against our people and also the continued denial of defence equipment to fight their terroristic slaves.

They are not only trying to break an important nation from within (suicide bombings etc) but have now even declared direct war.

Posted by dimension117 | Report as abusive

With all due respect to the previous commentator, the truth of the matter is that Pakistan is an enemy state that’s regarded as an ally by the United States, only out off political expediency demanded by ground realities. Everyone ought to be mindful here that this is a country that simultaneously poses as a front line state for China against Democratic India, whilst enjoying the status of having been the only state on Earth that had consistently provided support to every murderous Islamist group in Afghanistan, even before they later proceeded with the creation of the Taliban regime with the help of their Al Qaeda allies. Every political leader in Pakistan – including the late Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharrif and General Musharraf – had overseen Taliban support and funding via Pakistan’s intelligence community through the Madrassa Network inside Pakistan. The obvious intention of the Pakistani state was to finish off in Afghanistan what the Soviets had already initiated, hence the complete elimination of the relatively liberal nationalist forces that had held sway over Afghanistan for almost three centuries. In short, all invaders – whether direct or via proxy – seek to eliminate the very forces that could offer

While today, many Pakistani politicians shamelessly lament in grotesque posture as the victims of US interests in Afghanistan. The truth is however that they are mere victims of their own malice and immoral politics. 9/11 showed the Americans that they can no longer trust Pakistan to meddle in the affairs of Afghanistan, which ought to have never been delegated to them in the first place. So by declaring war on the Taliban and actively supporting the long held efforts of the late former King of Afghanistan – Mohammed Zahi Shah – to hold a national grand assembly (Loya Jirga) for bringing Afghans together to recreate a more liberal government once again, the United States basically declared war on Pakistan’s 40 year old foreign policy against Afghanistan.

The only reason that Musharraf threw in his lot with George Bush was because neither he nor his military had the spine to stick to what they once saw as their national interest, in the face of total war with the United States. For this reason, Musharraf made a 180 degrees turn-around by throwing in his nation’s lot with the war on terror – or “the war on Pakistan’s traditional foreign policy” to be precise. It is in fact this sheer cowardice that obligates the common Pakistani to swallow, which is responsible for the Anti-Musharraf trend in the country and NOT a genuine shift towards a liberal Democracy as is foolishly reported by many journalists. It is for this reason also, that the common Pakistani hates the United States. Giving in to them would be akin to giving in to Hitler’s voters in Nazi Germany.

So absurdly enough, while the previous commentator adds typical vitriol to the tired old argument about how the US is losing support in Pakistan and other Muslim States, the fact is why should we care? Seriously, these are nations that have for years projected their own failures and developmental inertia on Israel and the United States. In their schools and Universities or general culture, hatred is fostered against the liberal west. And yet some bozos here think we ought to be alarmed at these failed states harboring increased anti-Americanism.

Moreover, while ignoring other more pressing issues coinciding with the US bombardment of a Pakistani paramilitary group, the previous commentator disingenuously rants on about the US falling out of favor with the British public. Let us keep in mind here that the Labor party that threw in their lot with the United States against Saddam’s regime are still in office. Moreover, the entire political opinion of voters in Europe are tilting towards the United States, in virtue of their electing pro-American conservative leaders in highly important European states such as Italy, France and Germany to name a few.

What needs to be pointed out here is that the recent bombardment of 11 Frontier Corps troopers coincides with a recently published report from the RAND Corp., clearly stipulating the ongoing support extended to the Taliban from Pakistani based groups, including from the Frontier Corps. Therefore, while the leaders of Pakistan continue to mouth off their support for the “war on terror”, the ground realities however show that at least not everyone in that country are willing to let go of a foreign policy that breeds terrorism. To this effect, I welcome the bombardment and welcome more of the same against any terrorist group or their sponsors inside Pakistan. Unless we engage Pakistan more proactively, failure on our part is imminent in Afghanistan. This would send a terrific message to anyone else contemplating a future 9/11 attack against the United States, don’t you agree?

Peace,
Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell breifing 11 June 2008, he has no clear explanation and refuses to accept that Pakistani military suffered casualties. This is despite the fact that State Dept spokesman has acknowledged that Pakistani military did suffer casualties. This is a dangerous precedent, cross border strikes into a nuclear armed Pakistan, pushed to the extreme, may result in uncertainty.

Posted by Umair Malik | Report as abusive

A US comentator above asks “why should we [America] care?” about being hated by most of the world. And he “welcomes the bombardment” that killed eleven of Pakistan’s Frontier Corps soldiers.

That attitude encapsulates the entire problem and indicates precisely the policy of the United States as regards the rest of the world, apart from Israel.

The young Pakistan Army officer who was killed by American bombs in North West Frontier Province was Major Akbar. His widow has two girls, aged two and a bit and eighteen months. Can the commentator ‘Neon’, above, be serious when he says that he “welcomed” the bombing that killed Major Akbar? If he maintains that he does, he is nothing less than a barbarian.

If there is one officer or soldier of the Pakistan Army who now approves of American policy as regards Pakistan, I would be very surprised.

See http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley061 32008.html ,
which tells it like it is.

Posted by beecee | Report as abusive

The commentator “beecee” has endeared me with the term “Barbarian”, while conveniently ignoring the fact that the Pakistani military and intelligence units – in cahoots with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban – have engaged in murdering thousands of innocent lives in Afghanistan alone for over three decades. It was this marriage that equally culminated into the mass murder of over 3,000 innocent lives in both the Unites States and the UK. Yet having ignored all this, this simpleton wants us to share in his lament for the demise of “Major Akbar”…boo friggin hoo…may we bombard another thousand Major Akbars in order to send in a clear message to these savages!

Also, since our friend here has a love for gallup polls, allow me to enlighten this mental-midget about a few more polls that have been conducted over the years. For instance, is he aware that in a poll conducted on April 23, 2002 about a correlation between Muslim religiosity and their attitudes towards the west, it was found that “In Pakistan, ratings of the United States are just as low among those who choose family (6% favorable to 72% unfavorable) as they are among those who choose religion (5% favorable to 71% unfavorable) ref: http://www.gallup.com/poll/5872/Most-Rel igious-Predominantly-Islamic-Countries-M ost-Negative-Toward-US.aspx . Let’s remind our commentator here that this poll was conducted well before “Major Akbar” (boo friggin hoo) was turned into pieces of a mangled carcass. Let’s also keep in mind here that “beecee” chose to ignore what I had stated earlier about a recent RAND report that had revealed ongoing Frontier Corps involvement in facilitating Taliban attacks against both Afghanistan and allied forces.

Not enough already? Well Ok, here’s another Gallup Poll which reveals that 44% of Pakistanis favor homicidal bombings. Let’s keep in mind here that 67% of Pakistanis in the NWFP – from where BOTH “Major Akbar” and his Frontiers Corps come from – voice support for Homicidal bombings ref: http://www.gallup.com/poll/103504/Extrem ism-Most-Prevalent-Pakistans-NWFP.aspx . Are you with me or would you like more? Cry me a river, will you bozo?

As you all may be aware, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan has recently voiced his country’s right to deploy Afghan troops into Pakistan to take out the enemy. Needless to say, his commentary is courageous and needs full US support. A few more bombing campaigns will deliver the message loudly and clearly.

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Reply to comment by Neon
Neon, I do not welcome the bombardment and more of the same. No one, including India has the balls to engage Pakistan more proactively,(if this means bombing Pakistan). The US is aware of this and recognizes Pakistan\’s strategic importance and has declared Pakistan (MNNA) major- Non NATO ally. in Pentagon press briefing by NATO commander Gen. Dan MkNeill on June 13th he confessed\”It is impossible to achieve stated objectives in Afghanistan by NATO and US without Pakistan\’s assistance.\” Better stay a friend of nuclear armed Pakistan than becoming a foe and risking nuclear confrontation.
You dont have an idea what you are talking about, you are a true barbarian who welcomes the death of Pakistani military personnel who are helping NATO/US forces in Aghanistan with their objectives. So you simply need to SHUT THE F*** UP.

Posted by Umair Malik | Report as abusive

The commentator “Neon” is a retard. Neon says Afghanistan president wants to deploy Afghan troops in Pakistan to take out enemy.
hahahahha what a joke, poor Karzai cant even go out from Kabul. His “Afghan troops” are so untrained, they cant even defend Afghanistan. They dont have the capability to pose a slight challenge to a fighting force of the calibre of Pakistan Army.
Neon, stop your absurd jokes like “Afghan troops deployed in Pakistan” “India is democratic country” yet again ” I welcome bombing of FC personnel, there should be more of this” and ” few more bombing campaigns will deliver message loud and clear”.
That is why I again advise you, SHUT THE F*** UP.

Posted by Umair Malik | Report as abusive

Dear Umair Malik,

You’ve written, “I do not welcome the bombardment and more of the same”. Now, whilst I’d like to thank you for your response, I must admit however that I had never intended to ask a Pakistani for his permission on have his country bombarded. Moreover, whilst I appreciate your having quoted Gen Dan McNeil for our consumption and I might have added about a dozen other similar quotations to assist you here. However, let us not lose site of the fact that it is in the nature of politics to be counterintuitive.

For starters, contrary to what you’ve stated above, Pakistan had long ago lost its place as “strategically important” to the United States. The Soviet Union is no more and India is a major ally in the region, hence rendering your country and the ongoing idiocy emanating from therein a chronic headache. Having said this, what makes Pakistan “strategically important” however is in its alliance in a fight against an enemy of its own making and from its own four decades old nurtured foreign policy. You are basically an ally against yourselves! This is precisely why your leaders are left with just two choices on their table. Either they take on the enemy from within, or we go in there and take them out ourselves, with the help of all our allies, including the Afghan National Army which already confronts Pakistani proxies and paramilitary units on their own soil. There’s no room for any back-stabbing “peace agreements” between your leaders and their old proxies. As George Bush had articulated clearly from the onset, “you’re either with us or you’re with the enemy”. Some of us had never lost site of the audience Bush’s speech was intended for.

I might also add here that you might have cut the Afghans some slack here, given the history between your people. Your attitude is rather telling of why armies have traditionally poured in from the North or the West and rarely the other way round. It’s amazing how history has a tendency to oft repeat itself.

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Neon
Who the hell are you? who gives you the authority to even write about Pakistan’s bombardment?

Posted by UMPK | Report as abusive

Dear UMPK,

Since you’ve asked who I am, I’ll be glad to enlighten…I am the living son of a great nation whose brave soldiers spill their blood defending the meek across the globe. I am of a charitable people who give even unto the enemy, whilst their leaders with their begging bowl kiss our butts in public, and then go about bravely kicking our butts in private. I am of a free people who unlike the barbarians in Pakistan, ask for nobody’s permission to speak up my mind. Thanks to people like me, even a boob like you gets to have a say or two.

You’d best be served by asking who the Pakistanis think they are to nurture armies of relentless barbarians, committing mass murder from Kabul to Delhi, and then onwards to New York and the UK? Who are they to throw sand in our eyes whilst they engaged in the proliferation of nuclear technology to every murderous regime on earth? These are a people who in virtue of their decrepit society, represent every measurement of human failure, and then go about projecting it to the doorstep of the free world. What else explains the sheer hatred and ongoing violence emanation from this part of the world?

It’s time we consider the removal of this festering wound from the world stage.

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Mr. Neon
Ref your post of 16 June 2008.

As for the advice pf GW to Pakistan: “you’re either with us or you’re with the enemy”, the way things are going and American motives in this region are becoming more clear very soon Pakistan may turn round and tell America: “You are either with us or you are our enemy.”

I fully agree with your statement: ‘It’s amazing how history has a tendency to oft repeat itself.’
The history has indeed been seen repeating itself for those who do not learn from it. It will, therefore, be advisable for America to learn from the history of British and Russian Empires’ incursion in this region.

Let me also add that Pakistanis don’t really dislike Americans as a nation. What they have really come to dislike or hate now is the policy of present American Adminstration (Bush Adminstration) vis a vis Muslim world in general and Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan in particular. Think about it bit objectively and you may well agree with me.

Posted by Kabir Das | Report as abusive

Dear Kabir,
Are you here to discuss politics or would you rather that we admire your talent as a first grade comedian? You write:
“The history has indeed been seen repeating itself for those who do not learn from it. It will, therefore, be advisable for America to learn from the history of British and Russian Empires’ incursion in this region.”
I am well aware of how Afghans made the British and the Soviets pack up their bags and leave, which begs the question as to what any of this has to do with the Pakistanis who’ve been peons of just about every man and his dog – including the Afghan people – during much of your history. Today, we are not at war against the Afghan people and most of them are cognizant of this, hence the reason why they had voted for a US ally to lead their country. This is likely to repeat at the next national election, irrespective of spontaneous spikes of media frenzied “disaster” reports that range from apparent military failures to government failures of epic proportions. The fact is that the Afghans need us against a common enemy which has bred and supported mass violence against them and will continue to do so until they can leap-frog their nation’s development as a bulwark against their enemies. For this reason alone, it’s you Pakistanis who need to be mindful of Afghan pragmatism and history, not us. Today, it is you people who are repeating the disastrous adventurism of both Soviet and British imperialism, not us. Do you see the humor in all this?
You went on babbling:
“Let me also add that Pakistanis don’t really dislike Americans as a nation. What they have really come to dislike or hate now is the policy of present American Adminstration (Bush Adminstration) vis a vis Muslim world in general and Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan in particular.”
…well yes, I understand precisely how you people seek to divorce the “American Nation” from the leadership we’ve been voting for. I can’t fault you for trying to divide us into a defeat your Soviet predecessors had tried but failed doing. What’s the matter, can you not try a little novelty in taking us on or does your culture stymie creative development? Now THERE’S food for thought…just when was it that your nation of about 170mil whackos had invented anything amounting to something? Shall I wait for you to respond? Bwaaa Haaa Haaaa…
And what else was it you were saying? Oh, THAT’S right:
“…the way things are going and American motives in this region are becoming more clear very soon Pakistan may turn round and tell America: “You are either with us or you are our enemy.””
….talk is cheap, just go on ahead and make our day, dip-shit.

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Dear Kabir,
Are you here to discuss politics or would you rather that we admire your talent as a first grade comedian? You write:

“The history has indeed been seen repeating itself for those who do not learn from it. It will, therefore, be advisable for America to learn from the history of British and Russian Empires’ incursion in this region.”

I am well aware of how Afghans made the British and the Soviets pack up their bags and leave, which begs the question as to what any of this has to do with the Pakistanis who’ve been peons of just about every man and his dog – including the Afghan people – during much of your history. Today, we are not at war against the Afghan people and most of them are cognizant of this, hence the reason why they had voted for a US ally to lead their country. This is likely to repeat at the next national election, irrespective of spontaneous spikes of media frenzied “disaster” reports that range from apparent military failures to government failures of epic proportions. The fact is that the Afghans need us against a common enemy which has bred and supported mass violence against them and will continue to do so until they can leap-frog their nation’s development as a bulwark against their enemies. For this reason alone, it’s you Pakistanis who need to be mindful of Afghan pragmatism and history, not us. Today, it is you people who are repeating the disastrous adventurism of both Soviet and British imperialism, not us. Do you see the humor in all this?

You went on babbling:

“Let me also add that Pakistanis don’t really dislike Americans as a nation. What they have really come to dislike or hate now is the policy of present American Adminstration (Bush Adminstration) vis a vis Muslim world in general and Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan in particular.”

…well yes, I understand precisely how you people seek to divorce the “American Nation” from the leadership we’ve been voting for. I can’t fault you for trying to divide us into a defeat your Soviet predecessors had tried but failed doing. What’s the matter, can you not try a little novelty in taking us on or does your culture stymie creative development? Now THERE’S food for thought…just when was it that your nation of about 170mil whackos had invented anything amounting to something? Shall I wait for you to respond? Bwaaa Haaa Haaaa…

And what else was it you were saying? Oh, THAT’S right:

“…the way things are going and American motives in this region are becoming more clear very soon Pakistan may turn round and tell America: “You are either with us or you are our enemy.””

….talk is cheap, just go on ahead and make our day, dip-shit.

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Hi, Mr. Neon

First of all let me thank you for addressing me as ‘Dear’ despite the tone and tenor and kind of language you use in your post. In this regard, I must admit, I will not be able to match your talent.

No! sir, I am not a comedian nor want to be admired as one. The fact that you saw in my post some element of comedy is indeed a tragedy.

You are surely not a comedian but you did make me laugh when you said: ” Today, we are not at war against the Afghan people and most of them are cognizant of this, hence the reason why they had voted for a US ally to lead their country.” And pray who is this ‘US ally’ in Afghanistan you are referring to. Do you mean Karzai who can at best be described as the mayor of Kabul. You seem to be as much in a state of denial as your leader who according to your own polls has been shown to be the most unpopular President of America for his adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan etc.

Neon, honestly you have great talent to be funny even when you try to be serious. You go on to make me laugh when you say: “Today, it is you people who are repeating the disastrous adventurism of both Soviet and British imperialism, not us.” Yes, I see lot of humor in all this. Keep it up. I only hope you are just trying to make people laugh and don’t really believe in what you are saying.

Sorry, we have neither the intention nor the means of divorcing the Americans from their great leader. We are aware of our limitations for this and as it is we don’t believe in interefering in the internal affairs of other countries like a super power that you are. However, I thought this is what your polls suggested that ‘American Nation’ and their ‘leadership’ stand divorced from each other. My source for this information is Washington Post. I wonder if you get to read such papers If your polls suggest something else please let us know about it. It must be funny to hear your interpretation of these polls.

As to your question if we have invented anything in recent past I regret to inform you the answer is in negative. However, I will like to add that when your ancestors were living in caves our ancestors were living in well built houses and well planned towns. I don’t expect you to know all this. If you want a confirmation of this you might google to read about the civilizations that existed at Mohenjadaro and Harrapa some 5K years ago and in Iraq before that and in Iran for that matter.

I will beg you not to make this a reason for your uncalled for incursions in other countries. I don’t think Viet Namese were great inventors either. But they were good teachers. See what kind of lesson they taught you in Viet Nam. Well, it can be argued that you were not taught a good enough lesson or alternatively you were not good enough pupil since you are repeating the same kind of mistake in Iraq and Afghnistan and may make a similar mistake in Pakistan and Iran if you continued to choose leaders like Honourable Mr. Bush. And by the way why is Osama bin Laden is giving you sleepless nights? I don’t think he has any great inventin to his credit as such. Got it mate or you want to hear more about it.

As far as making your day is concerned we may not have to do anything. It is even cheaper. You will cook your own goose the way you want to proceed with this war on terror by the use of force and force alone without giving any thought to to root cause of all this madness.

Take care. Would love to hear from you soon. And thanks for making me laugh so much. Laughter is surely the best medicine for angst that I have realized after reading your above post.

Posted by Kabir Das | Report as abusive

Dear Kabir,

You’ve ranted:

“First of all let me thank you for addressing me as ‘Dear’ despite the tone and tenor and kind of language you use in your post. In this regard, I must admit, I will not be able to match your talent.
No! sir, I am not a comedian nor want to be admired as one. The fact that you saw in my post some element of comedy is indeed a tragedy.”

So which is it, are you thanking me for endearing you as my dear or are you offended at my raising your stature as a comedian? I think a little clarity beckons your attention here…

…yet you go on…

“You are surely not a comedian but you did make me laugh when you said: ” Today, we are not at war against the Afghan people and most of them are cognizant of this, hence the reason why they had voted for a US ally to lead their country.” And pray who is this ‘US ally’ in Afghanistan you are referring to. Do you mean Karzai who can at best be described as the mayor of Kabul.”

Would a simple “yes” do here or would you prefer that I elaborate further? Your legions of useful idiots harbor such delusions of grandeur that you think yourself fit enough to take on the might of the US forces, so why am I not surprised at your undermining of the Afghan people, even if history does lean on their favour.

You advertise your supidity further with:

“You seem to be as much in a state of denial as your leader who according to your own polls has been shown to be the most unpopular President of America for his adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan etc.”

And to think all the while I had been under the impression that President Bush was in fact elected to office for a second term AFTER he had invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq. I guess you’ve a problem with the detail, especially given that our Iraq effort was at its most challenging at the last federal elections. There are many reasons for shifting political sentiments in the United States and it has nothing to do with either Iraq or Afghanistan. Naturally, I don’t expect you to comprehend this.

You rant:

“Neon, honestly you have great talent to be funny even when you try to be serious. You go on to make me laugh when you say: “Today, it is you people who are repeating the disastrous adventurism of both Soviet and British imperialism, not us.” Yes, I see lot of humor in all this. Keep it up. I only hope you are just trying to make people laugh and don’t really believe in what you are saying.”

…excuse me for interrupting your diatribe here, but which of us did you accuse of being in “denial”?

“Sorry, we have neither the intention nor the means of divorcing the Americans from their great leader. We are aware of our limitations for this and as it is we don’t believe in interefering in the internal affairs of other countries like a super power that you are. However, I thought this is what your polls suggested that ‘American Nation’ and their ‘leadership’ stand divorced from each other. My source for this information is Washington Post. I wonder if you get to read such papers If your polls suggest something else please let us know about it. It must be funny to hear your interpretation of these polls.”

Though I don’t expect you to end up any wiser with this. However, allow me to remind you that ever since the war of independence from the same British imperialism your ancestors chose to serve under, Americans have sacrificed thousands of lives to make sure our people leave no stone unturned in scrutinizing our leaders. Other than that, I see little value in indulging the enemy with the detail.

You idiotically write:

“As to your question if we have invented anything in recent past I regret to inform you the answer is in negative. However, I will like to add that when your ancestors were living in caves our ancestors were living in well built houses and well planned towns. I don’t expect you to know all this. If you want a confirmation of this you might google to read about the civilizations that existed at Mohenjadaro and Harrapa some 5K years ago and in Iraq before that and in Iran for that matter.
I will beg you not to make this a reason for your uncalled for incursions in other countries.”

In other words, confronted with the fact that Pakistan has 60 years of nothingness to show for itself, you reach out to events dating back 5,000 years, just to find something to thump your chest about? Go with your strength…I hope that by describing you as pathetic, you’ll not end up blowing up some school we’ve just helped build in hapless old Afghanistan. To come to think of it, I am almost afraid to blow away your claim to having inherited the “Indus Valley Civilization”…well almost…

The truth is that the general lack of talent in your civilization had ensured centuries of total ignorance on Mohenjadaro and Harrapa up until as recently as 1905. It was only then that Cambridge educated Sir John Hubert Marshall had came to discover these sights, hence the reason why this old civilization had came to be linked with the Indus valley in the first place. Recent studies however reveal that sites found in the Indus valley were in fact a part of a wider civilization that encompassed central Asia, rather than the people who’ve inherited modern day Pakistan.

Major sights in Pakistan that are linked to the Indus Valley civilization have been found in Baluchistan, Sindh, and only marginally in modern day Punjab, with its own borders historically shifting back and forth as with the rest of the region. Additionally, other sites linked to this civilization also exist in modern day India, such as Gujarat for instance. A little study about the region associated with this ancient civilization would inform you that all the original inhabitants of these lands had been strongly associated with Central Asian migrants, as opposed to the Aboriginals from India with whom they later assimilated. Moreover, any informed historian can tell you that the lands and people falling in the north of the Indus river resemble in culture and appearance those found in Afghanistan, rather than the bulk of modern day Pakistanis who are largely Punjabis or post-partition migrants from India. Add to this the fact that recent findings associated with the Indus Valley civilization are located in NWFP, Afghanistan, Eastern Iran and as far north as Turkmenistan, and you’ve got yourself a better picture of which people are owed their due recognition as the true children of this ancient civilization.

I ought to thank you for thumping your chest over a civilization that is arguably not even yours, for you’ve also touched on an area of study that explains why Pakistani leaders had developed and nurtured the Taliban movement in Afghanistan and Pakistan. After all, let us remind ourselves that the lands falling north of the Indus River – with its people resembling the Afghans in civilization and appearance – had only fallen into the Indian orbit as a result of British colonial expansionism. For this reason, the modern Pakistan that subsequently broke away from India is not a nation which formed naturally by a people with common aspirations. Rather, it is a dangerous failing state that had inherited its lands from the deathbed of Colonial Britain. It is the lack of any natural bond towards nationhood among your people that had led your leaders to foster Islamism as a way to keep the nation together, for without it, history lends itself as witness to separatist movements in Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP.

Today, Americans confront a murderous movement, which by default, positions us to challenge the very existence of Pakistan. Do you suppose we ought to cave in and allow the Taliban to fester in your country? I guess we could do that and hope that they’ll keep to their own and go away. However, this does not guarantee us security from another future attack against our national interests emanating from your region, nor does it guarantee stability in Afghanistan. After all, it was the chaos in there that acted as a platform for 9/11. The fact is that the people in the NWFP are just as eager to claim Afghanistan as theirs, as had been the case with traditional Afghan leaders laying claim to the NWFP and Baluchistan. The difference here is that whilst traditional Afghan leaders – Like Karzai – are nationalists and comparatively liberal forces we can work with, your allies in Pakistan however are rabid Islamists and avowed enemies of the United States in virtue of their ideological mindset. Your leaders have always supported them, for these groups act as a vehicle for a Pakistani expansionism that requires the accommodation of an Islamo-fascist doctrine that respects no national borders. Do you suppose we ought to trust you animals unchecked and with nukes at your disposal? There’s a fat chance of that ever happening and the vast majority of Americans are on board on this one, I assure you.

…you humour me further with this…

“ I don’t think Viet Namese were great inventors either. But they were good teachers. See what kind of lesson they taught you in Viet Nam. Well, it can be argued that you were not taught a good enough lesson or alternatively you were not good enough pupil since you are repeating the same kind of mistake in Iraq and Afghnistan and may make a similar mistake in Pakistan and Iran if you continued to choose leaders like Honourable Mr. Bush.”

I don’t mean to burst your bubble here, but the last time I checked we went to war against the Vietnamese Communists with the view to confronting what our leaders believed to be Chinese expansionism. Up to 5 million Vietnamese lost their lives while their nation was bombed to the Stone Age. So much for our defeat, given that the American economy continued to flourish. What we ended up with was not only the halting of Chinese expansionism, but also their recruitment against the Soviet Union, hence our fomenting a major rift among two major Communist powers. Do you suppose your leaders can continue depending on the Chinese for your military parts? Bwaaa Haaaa Haaa Haaaa….

…I would have to applaud your for your underlying honesty with this statement:

“And by the way why is Osama bin Laden is giving you sleepless nights? I don’t think he has any great inventin to his credit as such. Got it mate or you want to hear more about it.”

Actually, I would like to hear more about it, so please enlighten…

You thump your chest further with this:

“As far as making your day is concerned we may not have to do anything. It is even cheaper. You will cook your own goose the way you want to proceed with this war on terror by the use of force and force alone without giving any thought to to root cause of all this madness.”

Force is precisely the diplomatic vehicle you animals understand. We had already exhausted discussions during the Taliban ascendancy in Afghanistan, and it gave us 9/11 in return. A little perspective is in order here.

You end with this:

“Take care. Would love to hear from you soon. And thanks for making me laugh so much. Laughter is surely the best medicine for angst that I have realized after reading your above post.”

Still laughing? I wouldn’t want to disappoint you, would I now?

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Dear Neon:
I was so glad to see your above post. I am going to be very busy in next 2 days. I will respond to your post as soon as I come back.

Please don’t go away. I will try not to make truth too bitter for you.

See you.

Posted by Kabir Das | Report as abusive

Dear Kabir,

You mean you actually need two days to respond to my little old post? When you hit the books, try and avoid edited material or literature written by your fellow nationals, for they’re generally designed to dumb you down to the simpleton you’ve become. They’re a little like fine whisky… the more you drink it, the better Pakistan looks…

Neon

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Three days come to pass, where on Earth is Kabir Dass?

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Five days come to pass, where the heck is Kabir Das?

Neon ;~D

Posted by Neon | Report as abusive

Dear Neon
Great words man, I appreciate your understanding and answering the terror child.
Your knowledge is waw, great.
I never had such an answer to the Terrorist Pakistanis. He is hidden somewhere, they are of no match to reality.
Yes, the only resolution for END of terror is to disarm Pakistan and let it be destroyed by itself.
Pakistan is the mother of all Troubles in the world and it is like cancerous gland that needs to be neutralized by every means.
But, let me tell you that Pakistan is afraid of Afghanistan and they misuse from the shabby situation we have here, otherwise there is no need for others to end this terrany, barbaric, satanic and Terror breeding cockroaches.
One more tip is that Punjabi are avenging us for they are actually the illegal breeds came to existence by our adventures during the course of history.
Go ahead with it and make them be ashamed of their deeds. They claim to be the glory of Islamic past civilizations, but the attrocities they commit against Afghans, is worse than Israel commiting against Palastinians.

I admire your knowledge and undrestanding of the Core of all problems.

Good luck and keep going, I have saved a copy of your comments with me and be sure that i will forward it to all my friends.

Love you man.
Down to the Dark force of Terror.

Posted by Mir | Report as abusive

Neon – Hats off to you sir for blowing away these barbaric people and their crimes committed under the veil of islam.

Cheers
Islamic Lampoon

Posted by Islamic Lampoon | Report as abusive

This comment is for Neon,

Although I understand the reasoning behind your comments against the Pakistani Muslims who claim they are Superior to India, Afghanistan and USA on their own home Turf when it comes to fighting a Defensive war, they are actually weaker than the Nepalis who are being Destroyed in Guerilla warfare by the Maoists with their own weapons and tactics Bahahaha.

I agree with most of your comments and views but seems you were a little confused when Kabir brought up the issue”(Rant)” on how they are rightfull owners and Inventors of Harappa and Mohenjaro on the river Sindh Indus Valley. Pakistanis are actually are remotly connected let alone Decendants since all those sites are from the Vedic Era. When the Aryans and Indians Merged in Indus, these sights were formed where transfer of Knowledge and wealth was made. Also these sites are still young compared to the Dwarka and other Sites In India which are carbon dated back to around 9,000 to 12,000 years. The Inventors of these sites are not Balochis, Turks or Persians, rather Vedics from ancient India since Charriots, Shiva Lingas and Swastikas were found during excavations. Indian borders reached as far as Russia before Modern day Invasions from Mughals “Modern”(1200 years).

Just thought about getting a topic going with someone who is able to debate.

Anyways Shalom

Posted by AlexanderDynamite | Report as abusive