A decisive moment : India, Pakistan on different paths

September 7, 2008

The irony is hard to miss. Just as Pakistan is struggling with the fallout of the first known breach of its territorial sovereignty by U.S. ground troops and all the odium associated with it in a proud nation, India has been welcomed into the nuclear high table, almost entirely at America’s behest.

Two unrelated events but coming days apart seemed to underline the divergent paths the two nations are embarked upon.  One has a gun pointed to it; the other is being wooed.

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On Saturday, America railroaded whatever opposition there was from smaller countries in the Nuclear Suppliers Group to civilian nuclear trade with India, despite its refusal to give up nuclear weapons and sign the NPT. As far as New Delhi is concerned the approval is a momentous decision as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said, because it ends 34 years of sanctions and isolation following the first nuclear test in 1974.

I remember an Indian defence scientist telling me way back that the sanctions were so pervasive that some institutions blacklisted by the United States on suspicion they were involved in the nuclear weapons programme couldn’t even import a toothbrush from there.

In one stroke, and in line with the way in which the Bush administration has gone about remaking the world in its own image, all that has changed. India’s nuclear weapons aren’t a problem any more as America builds a new strategic partnership that many see as aimed at balancing China.

And what of Pakistan ? A seat at the nuclear table is probably the farthest thing on anyone’s mind including perhaps Islamabad’s as it struggles with  more fundamental issues of territorial integrity at this point. The raid this week by U.S. forces may signal an even more intense attacks as this report says.

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But the Pakistan government, says Gary Leupp, a history professor at Tufts University, has provided more assistance to the United States than any other as it pursues its goals in southwest Asia. No country has been more dramatically destabilized as the price of its cooperation.
 
“But not only does the U.S. political class take this disastrous compliance for granted, it wants to further emphasize Islamabad’s irrelevance by attacking the border area at will,” he writes. And ominously it’s not just the Bush crowd; Senator Barack Obama has been saying that the United States must do more to press Pakistan to act against the Islamist militants as an earlier post on this blog pointed out. 

65 comments

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I don’t think there is a coherent entity called Pakistan.
What is called Pakistan is now a loosely grouped bunch of competing entities each with its own agenda and priorities.
You have the all powerful army, which has been reduced to a toothless force with an avaricious officer corp interested only in its own survival and feathering its nest. Then you have the ISI or the military intelligence which again has a number of conflicting agendas ranging from militant Islamic programs to an all consuming rabid hate for India.
Then of course there are the political parties, again bent on surviving at all costs and largely powerless.
All the above mentioned entities are corrupt in the extreme and have jointly milked the unfortunate nation dry.
Now that Asif Ali Zardari, the top crook has been elected as president, it is only a metter of time that the whole rotten structure comes crashing down spreading chaos and mayhem in the region!

Pakistan can never be invited to the nuclear table as India was, because, unlike India, Pakistan was involved in nuclear proliferation to Iran and Libya. Though AQ Khan, the “father of the Islamic bomb”, was eventually blamed for the proliferation, he couldn’t have done it alone without the knowledge and help of the Pakistan army (and President Musharaf), who were in charge of oversight and security of all of the country’s nuclear facilities. The fact that the Pakistani government continues to shield AQ Khan and deny access him access to foreign reporters or international nuclear agencies is evidence of the government’s complicity in nuclear trade. India, on the other hand, has conducted nuclear tests and build nuclear weapons as a safeguard against China (after losing the 1964 war to China), but has never supplied nuclear designs, components, or weapons to any other country or agency. If they ever do, this nuclear waiver will automatically stand null and void.

Posted by Al Pinto | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a country that is probably best under a dictatorship or ruled by the military. This is the only way to have the country organized. If the country is ruled by the military or a dictator, they should ban maddrassas since these schools will generate the resistance to their power in governing the country.

Only after Saddam Hussein was removed from power one can see that the country was more at peace than fractured by the Sunni and Shiites. One hardly hears of the Kurds since they are more at peace than the Sunni and Shiites. Pakistan seems to be in a similar situation as Iraq.

Ben mentioned corruption in Pakistan and it definitely has a problem with massive corruption but it is only normal for a backward country such as Pakistan. Compare it with the United States which is light years ahead of Pakistan and see how even in the United States you see corruption quite widespread. So the corruption in countries such as Pakistan and in Iraq is to be expected.

Posted by realmerv | Report as abusive

A deeply biased article in which a Hindu Indian had bad mouthed Pakistan by using a using a medium like reuters.

Posted by Sikander Hayat | Report as abusive

India is definitely marching ahead and for pakistan it’s internal and external policies are so flawed that their survival is at stake.
Want to support terrorist and then also act as if against terror.
Want to have friendship with India but instigate the communal or terror activities in India
Want to have strategic friends with afgan but instead helping trying to sabotage other dev activities.

Pakistani politicians need to clean up their act..assuming that nobody is watching is wrong..

Posted by Gus | Report as abusive

Yes and No, firstly when were india and pakistan on the same path for you to see them in different paths now ??
pakistan has always aimed at begging alms from US for daily bread and filling bank accounts of corrupt leaders. pakistan has always loved to live in chaios where part of public see taliban as brothers and few see them as enemies.well its easy to see taliban and alqueida are the one responsible to make pakistan eligible to beg alms from US.
where as India has dignity and there is no way one can compare India and pakistan in anyway..
I agree part of story that nuclear deal could be to balance out china. as china pose a big treat to US today not a militery threat though but US is in deep deep shit when it comes to their trade deficit to china largely because of china’s non-transparent banking and currency valuation.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

Why did it take India 34 years? It seems to me to be a very long time? Or does the Indian Clock naturally runs slower? What was India’s problem – or are you just gloating about someone else’s issues – gratuitous pontification?

Posted by Sifwat Ali | Report as abusive

Why make a comparison between the two? One is a failed nation that will probably not survive more than 1-2 decade while the other will continue as a stable democracy for a long time. One is essentially going down the path Afghanistan was in the early 90′s with warlords controlling and roaming the NWFP. Pakistan got its missiles and bomb from the master proliferation china (and N korea) and then passed it on to ummah brothers in libya, iran and alqaeda. They still consider the taliban as a strategic investment to use against India, afghanistan and US interests in the region. Its no wonder US is fed up with their lies and keep bombing them. More power to ISAF..

Posted by vav | Report as abusive

Sanjeevs article and the predictable response by Sikander Hayat shows how religious extremism is deeply entrenched in Pakistan. The authors article ends on a sympathetic note to Pakistan – it is entirely another matter whether that sympathy is even deserved. Pakistan has swallowed billions in US aid, used it almost entirely for weaponry directed against arch rival India, and Musharraf’s promises against extremism have been mostly hollow. Few, if any believe, Pakistans proclamations of having lost “Thousands of men” in the war on terror. Every neutral source from the Post, NYTimes, to Time has run articles on how the Pakistani Army staffed ISI has been hoodwinking the US by handing over run of the mill Arabs while protecting the more important Taliban and Al Qaeda leaders. This while hundreds have died in India and Afghanistan in the past few years alone, as the ISI backed Islamic militants attack and target civilians.

Even so, Miglani attempts to portray Pakistan in the light of being a victim.

And for that, Sikander Hayat of Pakistan calls him a “Hindu Indian” out to malign Pakistan. In that it reflects the pervasive bigotry that is common in Pakistan and Pakistani circles, where the Hindu is a creature, an infidel to be attacked and exterminated and that has been the raison de etre of the two nation theory as well, which led to the creation of Pakistan. The events of September 11 showed that the same philosophy had been extended and implemented vs the United States, which of course led to the US war vs the Taliban.

At present, the Pakistani Army is biding its time, but to imagine that it will get rewarded for a history of military incompetence (defeats vs the Indians time and again, in 48, 65, 71 and 1999) and genocide (1971 vs the Bengalis), is breathtaking naivete.

The Pak Army & civilian establishment were also culpable in proliferating nuclear and missile technology to Libya and North Korea.

Based on this horrific track record of exporting and sponsoring terror and rogue actors, the Pak Govt should be held to task and not offered more military aid or salves to its “pride” or “honor and dignity”.

Posted by Jim Tollers | Report as abusive

Why is Rooters defaming the Pakistan, hain? It is all Amreeka’s fault that not enough Canadian Visas were issued. And Bakbak Obama should know better than to attack Bakistan. He will learn lesson of Munh-tod Jawab and also Nani-Remembering. Salaam.

Posted by Abdul Al-Okullah | Report as abusive

Sikander,

Welcome to the real world. There is no more equal treatment for Pakistan with India. This is not just the “Hindu Indian” view but the view of the whole civilized world.

India = Democracy, Economic growth, education, IT and high technology

Pakistan = Jihad, terrorism, nuclear prolfieration, Taliban, Al Qaeda and rogue military

This is the real world.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

Porkistan is born to burn. I can bet within a decade there won’t be any porkistan. I mean there r 4 parallel gov.
1) by ISI
2) military
3) by public elected corrupt parties
4) mullas

so I will tell u pakistan is doomed.

India will now be able to defeat Pakistan in all the future wars. If you search the records, 1 Indian rupee was equal to 1 Pakistani rupee in 1994. Today 1 Indian rupee = 1.75 Pakistani rupee. The Pakistani currency has become worthless and will continue to lose its worth.

Today India has more Muslims than Pakistan.
180 MILLION comapared to Pakistan’s 170 Million.

So that’s the crucial difference between the two nations.

Posted by Abdul Ansari | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a strong nation. The ISI and Pakistan Army as powerful as ever. Even the USA and CIA are aware what ISI is capable. Pakistan nuclear capability is well maintained and guarded. Also, Pakistani missile program is much advance than India. Pakistan was always subjected to severe sanctions during the 80s to prevent from building the bomb. But Prime Minister Z.A Bhutto had famously remarked :\”We will eat grass, but build the bomb\”. And we did it. Pakistan damn cares regarding the Indo-US nuclear deals. We are proud of our nuclear bombs and ready to use them on any enemy that thinks we are weak.
Vijay and this Indian who as posted above, are both son of bitch f*cking Gandoo Indians madar chod.

Posted by UMPK | Report as abusive

Pakistan= Army+ISI+Ghauri+Shaheen+F-16s+Nuclear bombs+proud to be eternal enemies of India
India = Coward bollywood cunts

Posted by UMPK | Report as abusive

Gandoostan(India) is born to burn. I can bet within a decade there won’t be any Gandoostan. I mean there r 4 parallel gov.
1) by RAW
2) Hindu fundamentalists
3) by public elected corrupt politicians
4) corrupt and incapable bureaucrats

so I will tell u Gandoostan is doomed.

Posted by UMPK | Report as abusive

I am glad to see that we are supporting a democratic country such as India. Pakistan on the otherhand has been a source of problem for the region and the world as a whole. All the Islamic terrorists seem to be getting trained there and concentrated in that nation supported by their intelligence agencies. Pakistan has also been the most significant proliferation of nuke bomb technology to enemies of America such as Iran, Syria, Libya, North Korea and god knows who else.

Posted by Rob Pomerado | Report as abusive

I am a Muslim and today I regret as to Why Pakistan was created?? United India could have had 180+170+150million Bangladesh Muslims. Total 500 million Muslims in one country.

I am thankful to Allah that the partition of India separated the fanatics from the real believers in Islam.

Posted by Abdul Ansari | Report as abusive

Thumbs up to Abdul!
Good Job.
Well Done.

Posted by Sanjana | Report as abusive

I am thankful to Allah that brave muslims went on to build their nation Pakistan and equip it with nuclear weapons. Today the enemies of Islam fear this only Islamic nuclear power on the earth. LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!!!

Posted by KashmirPakistan | Report as abusive

I’m glad to see that other Muslims realize how corrupt the Pakistani government really is. With an open democratic government India as a whole Muslims,Hindus,Sikhs,and Buddhists are all working together to modernize and escape the cycle of violence perpetrated by Pakistan time and time again in the 3 wars.

This treaty will help consolidate India as a future superpower while Pakistan will probably slip into anarchy or another Dictatorship

Posted by D.S | Report as abusive

Hi,
Obama (the US Democratic presidential candidate) said recently in an interview that Pakistan uses much of US aid to build an army against India.
With shift in strategic relationship now, US must ensure that aid it gives to Pak is not used against India.
Of course, India and Pak are in 2 different leagues. Pakistan belongs in the league of Nigeria, Bukino Farso and the like.
Sridhar

Posted by R.Sridhar | Report as abusive

So long India servers US interest by helping contain China like Pakistan did with the containment of the old evil empire India will get all the toys… The bottom line is US interest..PEROID….

Posted by Mo Akhtar | Report as abusive

Sanjeev is very charitable, there has never been a comparison.

(1) India gradually crawled to strengthening its educational institutions, weakening feudalism and empowering weaker sections.

Pakistan sold educational institutions to wahabbism and militant Islam, empowered feudal lords, wiped out weaker sections, ethnically cleansed formerly East Pakistan and changed demographics of occupied Kashmir. Cultivated Army/ISI/Politicians who ended up being a black hole in its coffers, while the citizens eat grass to date.

(2) India stayed away from discriminatory groups NSG/NPT (that kept India out by picking 1968 as cutoff, when Indian tested the device on 1974) on principle and strived to gather the know-how guided by luminaries like Dr. Bhaba. In spite of various pressures to trade the know-how for commercial benefit, remained a responsible member of this world.

Pakistan chose a thief to lead the effort, stole technology from Europe, begged from China and eventually became Nuke-mart of the world for anybody who had a few $$$s to spare.

(3) India protected its fledgling industries and opened up to now have a self-sufficient economy. Indians have stepped out of their nation boundaries and mingling with outside world with confidence and head held high.

Pakistan, in a chronic obsession to incinerate India, dragged itself down filth so much that its citizens wish they didn’t have the “green passport” and cease to call themselves Pakistanis, preferring to rather piggyback on others reputation by calling themselves “South Asians/Sub Continent/Colonial India”.

(4) India, in spite of the pro-soviet bent, managed to keep its self-respect intact and worked hard for its place in the world.

Pakistan, proud of geographical location, sold its soveriegnity for a few $$$s and lives off others’ mercy. In the past decade, it traded self-respect and dignity for $12 billion from US, $3 billion from Saudi Arabia and unknown sum from China. Unable to offer anything worthwhile, now resorts to begging all over the the world showcasing each “promise of alms” as prized trophy.

So dear Sanjeev, in an effort to be diplomatic, you do disservice to the world that wakes up every morning hoping it is all just a nightmare.

Posted by Akash | Report as abusive

THERE IS NO COMPARISION BETWEEN. INDIA AND PAKISTAN. INDIA IS FAR MORE ADVANCED AND BETTER PLACE TO LIVE THAN PAKISTAN. EVEN FOR MUSLIMS IN INDIA FEEL SAFE AND AWAY FROM THE TAG OF TERRORIST BECUASE THEY ARE INDIAN CITIZENS.

PAKISTAN HAS HIGH TIME TO COME OUT OF ILLUSION THAT OIL IN THE ARAB COUNTRIES IS GOING TO LAST FOREVER. IT IS MATTER OF 30 YEARS WHEN OIL GETS OVER FROM SAUDI. WHOLE WORLD WILL BE DEPENDING ON NUCLEAR POWER.

LOL… India comparing to pakistan. I guess Iraq is much less dangerous compared to Pakistan, atleast they(IRAQ) have the second largest oil reserves in the world, thats a lot of black gold beneath them to run their country. what about Pakistan No energy, No proper work force, radical fundamentalists, etc.

India has 150 million peaceful muslims, but unfortunately some indian muslim youth gets brain washed by these pakees dumb ISI, fundamentalists.

India for superpower. Go India

I feel that Abdul Ansari did a better job than all those fanatics here.
People you just dont get the picture. Do you belive for 10 billion dollar aid the General would side with you. They still celebrate 9/11 in the streets in pakistan (with the money you paid).
Why did Bush go to Iraq after 9/11 ?
Saddam never had an idea of it.
9/11 was hatched by the al-qaeda supported by the ISI.
You know where Mullah Umar and Osama are? No, but ISI does.In their safehouses in pakistan.
Its the raging frustration of a nation which could not succeed in the new world.If all those fanatics here think that the nuclear bomb is going to threaten India or US they are wrong.
Nuclear bombs are not used in the way they think they will do.
No one ever uses them , as for Pakistan it will implode not explode ,it just needs two things that it has now both of them working against it ,pressure and time, pressure from its economy taleban the US and ISI and its Army.
Its a beautiful setup created by itself,time it has plenty of that ,for the last sixty years it has nothing to say for itself, lets hope Barack Obama does a better job on them.

Posted by Rajesh | Report as abusive

The need of an hour is that electricity to fuel economic growth of India than to build more nuclear bombs. I would like to see a day when all Indians are educated and have a decent standard of living. It’s also important to defend our country from external aggression and terrorists but i think India has enough nuclear weapons to destroy Pakistan many times and it should not be a prime objective to develop even more. First India should become a developed country and then think about the rest.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

Hi friends…interesting responses and some of they have resorted to jingoistic flame fests while some have provided realistic comments base on facts.

As an Indian,i want not just Indians but all Pakistanis to be happy.Further,let there be peace in the entire world.OM SHANTHI…SHANTHI!
I earnestly hope that all ignorant forces,be it from any side be wiped out and let there be light.

Sanjeev’s article as much as it irks patriotic pakistanis isnt a myth but a fact and as usual truth is seldom sweet if u dont want to accept it.

For US,China is strategic competitor to engage with and contain it economically,militarily etc and India a Strategic partner to nurture (although not with the sole aim of containing China) while Pakistan is a Strategic Crony or a Henchman to fight war on terror and to be dumped later.

So the Indo-US deal is a Win-Win deal for both parties.Indians have earned the deal with their hardwork and policies right from the day we got independence like setting up world class educational institutions like IITs,IIMs etc.,research centers like ISRO etc which ultimately led to a huge pool of Indian Scientists and engineers who fuel our economy and make us Indians proud and also we have a very well written constitution and disciplined army!(though our politicinas are know for their corruption)and but nevertheless we had a very very stable democracy.

Having said this,i still feel India has a long way to go to eradicate poverty and other problems.(30% of indians are still below poverty line!) .I a not a jingoist but a realist.Both India and Pak are third world countries with a plethora of problems BUT the BOTTON LINE is while India has been progressing year by year and working to eradicate its problems and weaknesses the same is not the case with Pakistan.Day by day Pak is getting entangled in a mess politically,economically,culturally (radical islam)….Can any one deny this????

For most part Pak was ruled by dictators who were mostly engrossed with the sole aim of harassing India using cross border terrorism etc rather than improving itself.

Pakistanis shud forget about the Indian threat.No one wants a war nor we indians want to obstruct pak’s growth.ALL WE INDIANS WANT IS TOO PROVIDE GOOD EDUCATION,LIVELIHOOD,HEALTH CARE TO OUR POOR AND THUS WANT A HAPPY INDIA..and i am proud that we Indians are going in the right direction.

Posted by Vamsi | Report as abusive

Pakistan as we know it today is a territory that needs to be pitied. It was founded on a premise of an Islamic State, whereas India formed a republic on the premise of a secular country. With no disrespect for the Islamic rligion, I can state, clearly Pakistan made a very great mistake. Then the Rivalry with a nation like India, which was so much larger, so much more civilized than the tribal warlord areas in Pakistan, albeit fueled by Western Interests did nothing to uplift the lives of poor Pakistanis who now find themselves in more of an abyss.Secularism with tolerance for all Religions would be their salvation

Posted by Nithia Chatterjie | Report as abusive

What nonsense,ye people are talking about,Pakistan is strong,

will remain strong as long as Pakistan has its proud and erect
military behind it, and ISI standing strong and erect behind Military.

Posted by Abdul Salim Gadha Khan | Report as abusive

why comparte the both .. they are Indians and Pakistanis smae people divided by creater –God! they both share the same desitiny dictated by divide and rule in the name of God. I only wish they were together.. would have been lot more fun.

Posted by Himmat Singh | Report as abusive

Brother in Islam
Allah HU Akbar !!
Kuffar world needs to know that Islam’s other name is Pakistan. Pakistan is very well Allah’s own laboratory to produce perfect Musalmans.GOP will be well advised to throw out all the kaffir written books taught in schools and colleges and make sure every child , adult ,man , goat study the Holy Quran to acquire the correct knowledge and make Pakistan superior to all non Beliving nations.Allah has promised the full reward of Paradise to any one whosoever beocme the citizen of Pakistan.
This remind me of Hadith, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) once said ” Muslims must acquire knowledge by coming to Holy land of Arabia”. I eequest my Pakistani brothers and sisters to march toward Mecca and not to come back till become perfect Momin, Ghazi or Jihadi. Instead of trying to go thorugh the private hardship to get single entry Candian Visa , residency in Pakisatan gurranted such rewards on daily basis. Hindus are just feeling jealous.

Posted by Amir Khan Gubodoer | Report as abusive

@Amir Khan Gubodoer

You seem to be mentally retarded. This is the same way every Pakistani and Kashmiris think. Don’t bring you religion to everything. Why you need a religion first of all?. I am a Hindu and believe in Hindu gods and fear them coz that prevents me from any wrong doings like murder, robbery otherwise there is no difference between humans and animals. Man created this religions not god to make fellow human beings live in a civilized way. I question if there is anything wrong in my religion. I question caste system. I question some rituals in Hinduism. Why can’t you question yourself, your religion, its founder, your country. Agree you should be god fearing but bringing religion to everything makes you and your countrymen look primitive in the eys of others.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

my dear indians what do u know about pakistan? do u know the inner Stregnth of pakistani nation if not than u should read the pak history bt why only pak history u should read the history of muslim india. muslims ruled subcontinent for 1000 yrs n under there rule they practiced the laws of justice n equality they opened the ways of progress for all communities including hindues. they were muslims n the perfect believers of islam not like the muslims of today. no one can blame islam as a rigid and backward religion islam is the religion of humanity, peace and justice but yes it allowes Jihad when some crual and anti islam force does harm to innocent people. pakistan came in to being to implement that ideology of islam. and as for as idea that pak is a failed and terrorist is concerned world badly need to know the events of 1980s when unites states herself trained arab mujahedeens to encounter soviet invasion in afghanistan n pushed pakistan in that war those mujahedeen now opposing the foreign invasion under US command in afghanistan n nw they are terrorist wow what a approach.
i just want to say 1 thing pakistan is a strong country n a strong nation when it came in to being so mant hindu leaders predict that it will not stay on the world map for long bt pakistan is still on the world map n inshALLAH will live forever.
nw some one wrote that in india there are more muslims than in pakistan i think he forgot the anti- muslims riot in ahmadabad, destruction of BABRI MOSQUE by extremist hindues. crual treatment of indian muslims by hindus is the big prove that ideology of pakistan is still working n inshALLAH ANOTHER PAKISTAN is in process with in indian borders, tamil home lane is another future state , there are more than 20 separatist movements in india. so hopefully some gud results for minority communities in india will come in near future. OPERATION BLUE STAR to crush SIKH community is another example of tolerant india. history remembers the nation with strong morale values not because of their militry power and weapons. pray to ur bhagwans for the SALAMTI of bharat n dont worry abt PAKISTAN. I BET AFTER 20 YEARS WE WILL SEE NO BHARAT. INSHALLAH

Posted by sadia | Report as abusive

indians consider themselves civilized n cultured nation. they should be thankful to muslim rulers that they introduced u with culture and civilization otherwise they have nothing except poverty, backwardness and the history of crualty against women and minority communities.
all south asian countries seek God’s shelter against indian conspiracies.

Posted by sarrosh | Report as abusive

yawn! why are we even here on this forum?
facts about pakistan:
inflation:26%+
GDP growth=4.6%
literacy=45%(of which 63% in madrassas)
president=mr 10 %
etc etc etc

I suggest we focus on china which is 15 yrs ahead but with western,russian,japanese help may catch up by around 2025-2030.

Posted by Shantanu Chatterjee | Report as abusive

I bet there will be no Pakistan after 20 years. It will be merged with India after India badly defeats Pakistan in any future war.INSHALLAH.

Posted by Abdul Ansari | Report as abusive

@Sudhir
Why bring religion onto every thing you ask?
Well Islam is Pakistan,Pakistan is Islam.
Over here we practice The Purest form of
Islam, Jeehad is are our birth right.
Insahalla Pakistan shall prevail.

Posted by Abdul Salim Gadha Khan | Report as abusive

@sarrosh,

India was the worlds largest economy till muslims came to India hence they have caused much more damage to Indian civilization than the British did. All the aspirations of Indian people were suppressed for 1000 years and now its again moving to a place where it belong in the world. Infact the place where i am from, Bangalore/Southern Karnataka was under Muslim rule for a very brief period of around 30 years and was always ruled by Hindu Rajas and Emperors. If you go to muslim ruled Hyderabad Karnataka region in my state you can see how backward it is. Check “wikipedia economic history of the world” you will find out. If you look at beautifully carved ancient hindu temples you can make out how talented our ancestors once were. Muslims were able to rule India coz India was not a unified country after Maurya’s and there were no collective measures to tackle those invading forces. Check your skin colour and body features. It looks like any of the Indians but only difference is that your great great grandpa converted to Islam under fear and my grandpa didn’t accepted that Arab religion for which i am very proud. Just tell me why being an Indian i should accept Arab hegemony and get an Arab name? why whould i pray to Arab named god by bending towards Arabia? Why should i wear 7th century Arab dress?. We Indians have our own god since 5000 years, our own way of dressing, our own names derived from our own language. If your great great pa did it for fear means i don’t have to. I have got a normal functioning brain and i can think logically.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

Back to TOPIC

Indian bomb is indigenous, thus the world recognized it.

Pakistan’s bomb is actually chinese bomb, with probably green paint to make it look paki.

Indian scientists are world class.

Pakistani scientists are actually thiefs, who steal nuclear technology.

Pakistan cannot expect to be rewarded for spreading militancy in Afghanistan.

India is united nation and all religions have equal rights.
I am a muslim and have never been discriminated in India.

All religions should be respected.

Any state that tried to stay togather by hatred will never survive.

INDIA IS GREAT.

Posted by Salim | Report as abusive

@ the likes of sarrosh and sadia
PLEASE join a course in History…..you people seem to be awfully weak at it. To get a few basic facts right
1. India is one of oldest surviving civilizations in the world, Hinduism one of the oldest surviving religions (along with Judaism and Confucianism, perhaps some more). Indian civilization and culture certainly predates the arrival of the Muslim invaders, and even the arrival of the Aryans way back around the 15th century BC).
2. The Muslim rule in India was not 1000 years long, but around 600 years (12th to 18th century AD). Although they produced some outstanding leaders like Akbar and some outstanding monuments like the Taj Mahal, most of them were intolerant tyrants. Aurangzeb is an ideal example. He killed his brothers and imprisoned his father to ascend to the throne. Then he introduced draconian penalties on non-Muslims, including a tax for not being Muslim! Thus enforcing conversion (which can be called ‘forced’ today).
3. If they had got time from womanizing and wine-drinking (like Jahangir) and focused on governance, maybe we would have had the technology to repel the British when they came in the 16th and 17th centuries.

Having said this, I would say that I bear no ill towards any nation or people on this planet. But you guys should respect facts for what they are, and stop creating history of your own.
Learn to call a spade a spade!

Posted by NVD | Report as abusive

Hey Guys, why are we talking about pakistan, we should be talking on lines with US, UK, France, Russia and atleast China, stop wasting our precious time bad mouthing about pakistan.

Posted by Tom Alter | Report as abusive

People like Sadia truly represents the mindset of Pakistanis. Having lost any faith in their country, now they are praying that India break up. Look at what Sadia has written, “INDIA HAS 20 INSURGENCIES” Ha ha ha ha and even Tamil Nadu is included!!!!!. At least Pakistanis have got something to dream when they go to bed hungry.

Posted by Manu | Report as abusive

I like to tell my Indian friends that Pakistan is not going to disappear, Pak has suffered through worst times than this and we will come through this too, we always do we are PAKISTANIS. I do admire India for their economic growth I hope you guys do well in the future too, I also hope that Pak will soon get back on it’s feet and continue with the growth it saw for the past 6-7 years.
I think it’s in India’s best interest to help and guide Pak through these tough times instead of gloating, cause if you are a student of history you would know that nothing stays the same. Pakistan Zindabad

Posted by HR | Report as abusive

All these Hindoos and other kaffirs are afraid of mighty powerful nuclear Pakistan . Pakistan was predicted by Porphet Muhamamd (SAWA) himself as the leader of Ummah who will guide the whole world in pure islam as examplified in our dear leaders like Jinnha and General Musharraf. Arabs and Presians are Jahil and We Pakistani are pure Islam, we will make Khilafa and rule over whole Muslim world . The Amir of Momins will sit in Lahore and Peshabar will be new Medina. The Muslims certified by Emirate of Pakistan will be the only one guranateed to earn the mercy of Allah and win the reward of Paradise :-) . Kaffirs will burn in hell while Pakistani will enjoy the Hours till eternity. Eat your heart out, We are Allah’s favourite creation.

Posted by Amir Khan Gubodoer | Report as abusive

Saddaam paid the ultimate price in the recent history by befriending the USA. I am not saying that USA is a bad country at all, it just has too big of an appitite. If you are not part of this machine or even if you being a part of this machine squeek, you are going to meet the fate of Saddaam Hussain. USA deep at heart beleives that it is the saviour of Human Rights and is the most benevelent nation on this planet. Pakistan luckily has strategic partner China for common reasons which has helped it face challanges so far. The fact that a lot of expectations about its breakup or such may be possible but with a Capital B But remember there may be the beleivers who beleive that they learned to expolode the bomb with the capital B Bomb to explode in case need be and not fot the others to take control of the inventory once Pakistan disintegrates. So, I beleive that there is always a limit to how far one should go to corner a cat and still expect not to be attacked back. I have seen some Vices craking by their own grip. We already know that for suicide bomber it doesnt make any difference what type of bomb it is which kill him, or how many lay dead besides him. The question is talking about nationalities and religions how vicious we can become and why we forget to tolerate and share love.

Posted by N. Junaid | Report as abusive

I wonder why people get so worked up on national level. It must be the indoctrination of what they learn while growing up and recent past history.

Islam was spread to India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Persia, Caucus mountain region by invaders who were not Muslim but adopted the religion and spread it with sword and by tax.

I look at Pakistan as three set of groups like Punjab, Sind, and Pushton tribes. They have different agenda and different heritage and customs. I am from Punjab and so are some of the kinsman. We speak same language, have similar customs and taboos but have different religion. Somewhere along the way their ancestors decided to change to Islam and made us different to the extent that they do not know each other and I would like to say hate each other in collective thinking. It boggles my mind how two group of people could hate each other so much at national level. Do I hate them No but I am always curious that what made them convert into Islam. I presume they did not have choice and were also some of them were forced into conversion. That is ancient past.
Islam did not convert Hindus into Islam but they converted lot of Buddhist which was the predominant religion in Afghanistan before Islamic invaders invaded this part of the world.
Alexander invaded India but chose not to convert locals into Greek religion. Babar came from Fergana in Kuzbikstan and always wanted to go back there some day but never did. Himayu did not know his fathers country and stayed in India and His son Akbar was only son who tolerated everybody’s religion and was considered great King even by British historians. His descendants were more into power and they killed their siblings to acquire the empire. I do not blame them for that. It was a dog eat dog world. Then there was A sikh king Ranjit singh who had similar ideas of employing Hindus, Sikhs and Moslems in his court because he believed that they should all live in harmony and it did work.
British ruled for 250 years and did spread Christianity but their goal was to plunder the wealth and drain the resources till there were none.

Now question is why they do not like each other or hate each other and will go to end of the earth to destroy each other for what. They can not feed, educate and protect their population at the level of rest of world and more over bad mouth each other knowing well this is not going to go anywhere and will only produce more hatred and distrust which has been building up for the last 60 years and I wonder how long will it continue at the pace this is happening.
Every time somebody dies in a conflict they forget to remember that person who dies is somebody’s son, brother, member of community and they are slowly killing the society in the process.
I could say more but I can not because ignorance and intolerance has not gotten us anywhere since the first invaders came and society will not improve and will either stay at status-qua or it will cause the society to disintegrate and there will be nothing left.
Oh yes when chinese premier Chou in Lai came to India and professed that India and China were brothers and neighbors and then they attacked India.

You all should wise up and learn from history and not spread hatred which does more harm and we should learn from history and apply to our lives so that future is secure for the next generations.

Posted by VKA | Report as abusive

@Amir Khan Gubodoer
Coz of people like you that Muslims(even the good ones) are hated everywhere and branded as terrorists. Get a brain and think about developing your nation mate.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

Its not just about time to write off Pak and hail India. By looks of growth of organisations like SIMI(1 lakh members) and Bangladeshi infiltration in places like assam,orissa,bihar,bengal.(12 lakh migrants unaccounted for) altering demographic balance and top of it christian conversion and slandering propaganda by them….may be India will be screwed up and perhaps Pakistan after invasion of US and changing education system and all..may be they will become place like Germany or Japan.
By 2050 and all..half of our population will be muslims..so we are screwed anyway..before these guys slaughter us..we should migrate to places like Japan or Canada or somewhere who needs skilled people. India is doomed with rising muslim population.

Posted by Jaydev | Report as abusive

Worry Not Jaydev !! You dont have to leave your country fearing rising muslim population..No doubt they are a burden but they cannot endager your existance in India.Keep faith and believe me you will need them in India to do all shitty jobs.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

It is obvious that the United States and India, See Pakistan as a threat to thier plans to contain Communist China, Pakistan for 61-years now has defeated the Indians in a whole series of wars, 1948 in which Pakistani forces took Kashmir, In 1965 in which they repulsed an Indian invasion which occured on september 6th 1965, In 1971 India again attacked Pakistan which led to the massacre of 3 million Bengali Hindus that India failed to protect, Not only that it provoked Pakistan with nuclear weapons in 1998 only to see the Pakistani tests nuclear weapons of thier own, Thier actions shortly after the testing led to skirmish which was a huge tactical victory for the Pakistanis in 1999.

India has been defeated by Pakistan and China aswell (1962), How can India be a counter to China which it can not even win a single war against its neighbours China and Pakistan?

The answer is the India is a tool for the American containment of China and American hegemony in Asia, Despite all the tall claims of India and its 1 billion illiterate, naked and hugry people, India is still just a third world sewer surviving on Western Alms.

Besides If Pakistan goes, Entire South Asia goes with it!

Posted by Dr Idris Shah Ebrahimi | Report as abusive

India has won all of the 4 four wars it has fought with Pakistan. Get the facts right first.

If Pakistan was so powerful, how did Bangladesh come into existence??

All of you Muslims who hail from the punjab province treated the Bangladeshi Muslims as subordinates. It was the Hindu friends of India who rescued the Bangladeshis from the tremendous toruturous and filthy rule of Pakistan which lasted for 24 years.

Once again, first get the facts right and then talk on a public forum like this.

Posted by Abdul Ansari | Report as abusive

guys why should we worry about pakistan…..pakista should compare iself with uganda,tajikistan,bangladesh,namibia,ken ya etc etc….moreover im happy for the fact that pakistan became an islamic state and took away many islamic radicals n fundamentalist otherwise india n indians would hav also been branded terrorist by world community….

my msg to pakistan,
stop thinking about india,sheltering terrorist and religion…..pakistan will automatically prosper if u guys try to implement these things ….

how can u guys think of india when u were not able o get eve a kashmir apple during kargil war….

i pity for pakistanis…allah plz save them

Posted by ramesh | Report as abusive

Ha ha Dr Idris Shah Ebrahimi, am confused !! do schools in pakistan teach history ?? well am sucha fool you will first need schools to teach then think of learning history. This is what happens when people learn history by mullas in mosques.Not only pakistan accepted humiliating defeat in all 4 wars with India but hey Do you know about the 5th Indian war with pakistan ?? which was about to wipe out Pakistan permanently when your ISI terrorists attacked Indian parliament in new delhi ?? It was your chicken Musharaff who begged India not to start war but pleaded to resolve issue diplomatically.If pakistan were anytime stong enough to confront atleast a fraction of Indian forces why would your almighty ISI and military equipped with all 2nd hand guns fight a proxy war by creating and sending terrorist to other countries ?? pakistan never had gutts to fight like men.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

@Dr Idris Shah Ebra

Are you Madrasa educated?. Oh..i see all the leaders of your country mostly military dictators has to prove to the people that their army is superior hence they put people in illusion. Go to Wikipedia and search for 1971 India Pakistan war and there you will find that Pakistani forces surrendered to Indian forces. You can sadly see a photo where your army general signing the surrender of his forces to Indian Army. After the second world war till that day no Army has been humiliated to the extent of surrender that Pakistan was.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

hey Amir guy, where in the world did prophet muhammad s.a.w said that Pakistan is the chosen country…??? hahahaha your leaders are so damn corrupt and you’re going to make a khalifa out of them. hahahahaha…Well for your kind info, there is already a khalifa guiding Allah’s beloved people, and trust me Allah doesn’t look at Pakistan or India any differently; for Him there is no boundary. His chosen, loving and peaceful people are in all parts of the world, be it India or America. At least, in India, the government provides some protection to its people, and doesn’t try to dictate who is the chosen one and who’s not

Pakistan thinks that its protecting or safeguarding Islam when in reality countries like afghanistan, Pakistan, arab, and Iran have become islam’s biggest enemies. Its sad but true. Pakistan is in bad condition. Its quite disturbing that these two countries, which were at one time one, can let America come between them..they’re stupid not to see that America is no one’s friend.

Posted by A-S | Report as abusive

Ebrahim Birather,
Assalamu Alaikum
Do not pay any serious attention to Kaffir Hindu and Hinduised Muslims. Their destiny alongside Christians and Jews is hot hell where they will be roasted till eternity by Merciful Allah. Pakistanis are the only true followers of Islam and as predicetd by our beloved Prophet (SAWA) the only people to be admitted to Paradise. No Jahil ARAB will be allowed come even close to the gates of Paradise. Pakistan has the atom bomb and Pakistan will use it to spread Islam in the whole world .
Arabs, Turks, Indians, European and American will all beg for mercy once our Ghazis go to war. The whole world will be Islamic in next 20 years and learn Islam from us Pakistanis . Pakistan have never lost any war it started as we are the guardian of Islam in this world and after Quraish Allah has bestowed special favour on us to spread mighty deep philosophy of Pakistani Islam in the whole world. All thsoe critcizing us will beg to become Pakistanis in near future. Wait till new Khalifa sits on the hight seat in Lahore , bringing glad tiding from Heaven and distribute booty among us true faithful.:-)

Allah Hu Akbar!!
Pakistan , the only true Islam. The leader of Ummah and the gatekeeper of Paradise .

Posted by Amir Khan Gubodoer | Report as abusive

@Amir Khan Gubodoer,

Leave this guy alone…

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

@@Amir Khan Gubodoer

Dude – you have watched too many Zaid Hamid (BrassTack) videos.

For those who want to know Amir’s source of information and inspiration, search for “Zaid Hamid” in video.google.com

Posted by Vicram Singh | Report as abusive

@Vikram Singh
Video watching by Faithfuls is haaraam. Please do not post
guidance to haaraam happenstance.
Salam.

Posted by Abdul Salim Gadhan Khan | Report as abusive

Its really funny, how most bloggers / commentators from Pakistan, only have rhetoric and little or no fact, forget about intellect to compare the situation. I guess, its the sheer burden of shame, that after having made a strong case of an Islamic country, they have produced a country that’s worldwide known for producing terrorists. Its a shame, that is displayed, all over the world, any airport, any immigration desk, Pakistani’s get treated like criminals, and Indians in comparison, get awe and admiration from the western world. They FEAR India’s competitive spirit, and its growing clout. Current US debate for the election is, who helped conclude the Indo-US deal. And accross the whole democratic world, Pakistan is treated as a problem, an ill concieved idea, that it truely is. Well wake up , Pakistan has sold itself, its image, its stolen technology, its present and its future to US and the western institutions like World Bank and IMF. Wake up, and realise , your country is in DEBT, your institutions don’t function, your reputation is tarnished, your country has already been through a partition, home of alquida, best known for export of terrorism…. and you still want to compare favourably to India? Shocking

Posted by SK | Report as abusive

Pakistan is there to live forever
Written By: Amjad Malik

As long as India keeps dreaming the disintegration of Pakistan, it will survive as a viable state as the very negativity serves the purpose of knitting this crowd of 170 million people into a nation, whenever it is confronted by its arch rival. Editor of Indian Defence Review, Mr. Bharat Verma writes that ‘new Delhi is its own enemy, when it permitted the creation of a pure Islamic state on its borders,” I for one disagree as this state emerged as a result of a successful struggle for independence by millions of Muslims of India who felt that two nation theory is the only viable option to preserve and protect each other’s identity and core values. Indian Hindus too got liberated after remaining under Moghuls for over 6 centuries and then British Raj through the same process due to Gandhi’s vision. Independence was neither granted through diplomacy, nor as a charity. It was snatched on the basis of fundamentals of the modern day democracy, one man one vote’ principle and majority of muslim populated areas vowed to join the newly established idea of ‘Pakistan’ where they saw security, identity and a peaceful enjoyment of civil and political rights, and a freedom of religion, culture and values.

Looking at secular India’s state and its treatment to its minorities, the wisdom of Mr. Jinnah’s decision is obvious seeing the situation of Muslims of India. Demolition attempts on Babari mosque, and Hindu fundamentalists attempts to erect Ayodhia Mandar satirically smile on the claims of Indian democracy, equality & secularism. Kashmiri Muslims are at war with the state since its occupation, and are demanding for an implementation on UN Security Council Resolution 47 (1948) where India agreed with the World that question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir should be decided through a free and impartial plebiscite. Kashmiris, instead, are facing bullets and worst genocide, than to have an opportunity to vote in a referendum. Riots in Gujrat exposes the treatment of Indian majority to its minority where thousands were burnt alive. Above all, latest October 2008 episode in Hyderabad where Hindu rioters killed six members of a Muslim family by setting fire to their home in the village Vatoli, amongst was a 2-year-old child. Muslim leaders called for better protection for minorities, and Asaduddin Owaisi, who sits in the lower house of the Parliament said that “Despite our repeated pleas and appeals, the government has failed to provide protection to the Muslims who live in remote areas and who have a very small population in those places.” This small episode exposes the state of those unprivileged in India and depicts the mind set of Hindu majority and answers all the critics of two nation theory as to why Pakistan came into being. I confess that it was as a result of a failure of Mr. Jinnah to secure equality & respect for the Muslims of India from congress.

Mr Verma further wrote in his thesis that, “many conveniently propose the myth that a stable Pakistan is in India’s favour. This is a false proposition. The truth is that Pakistan is a bad news for the Indian union since 1947-stable or otherwise. ” I agree with Mr. Verma that stable Pakistan may not suit India but stress that it is conducive to the region and the world in general which takes precedence. Nuclear armed & secure Pakistan is a guarantee of stability and a bridge between right thinking powers and ancient civilizations. When President of Pakistan in his interview with Wall Street Journal says That, “ India has never been a threat to Pakistan,” or that “I, for one, and our democratic government is not scared of Indian influence abroad,” it transpires an individual thinking, but may not b a majority view. This view is quite identical to that of new US policy which is being imported into Pakistani mind set. In my 8 October meeting with US diplomats at London, I heard the same voices that USA insists that Al- Qaeda, Taliban and rising insurgents are a real danger to Pakistan’s internal stability and the World, and Pakistan should perceive that threat as real other than that of India. USA is hopeful that unlike Pakistan army, civilian leadership will cooperate and will share US sponsored view. In response to unilateral Presidential desire of peace, India has answered by blocking ten thousands cusecs water at Chenab river in violation of Indus Water treaty which may act as a set back for an agricultural country and will affect its crops production capacity. India is also heavily interested to play dirty at the rear border of Pakistan, and it is sending thousands of troops in Afghan Pak border and already has a settled presence, interfering capacity and intention which has a potential of escalation to a small skirmishes in near future. In any event India has responded its lovers in a befitting manner.

Pakistan rightly quests for peace and stability in the region. It has played twice a major role in the region once to stop Russian invasion against Afghanisatn which resulted in Russian disintegration and secondly, as a non NATO ally against Al-Qaeda, an unfaced menace to the world. Its liberal & conservative mixture is its beauty which has a capacity to house many languages and cultures within an interesting heritage. Disintegration of one state, will be followed by others as it will set a principle that no components can survive in a Federation in the region, in return in the world. The world saw Russian disintegration as a result of an unlawful invasion, which is a lesson for all. Economic stability is not the only key to survive in a statehood, as trust, treatment and neighbors guarantee the future sovereignty of any state. Both India and Pakistan are at a crossroad, they must learn to live with each other, if not friends, as past enemies. They should live fairly keeping their own strategic positions intact on ‘live and let live principle’ as a little shift in equilibrium, will guarantee the disintegration of both. Sometimes, warming one’s hands in enemy’s fire can cost a lot and India is just doing that by meddling in Pakistani areas in difficult times and by sending its troops in Afghanistan. Pakistan is there to survive and is ready for its enemies at their waterloo.

Amjad Malik is a Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England & Wales

15 October 2008

Our forefathers were same, influx of foreign religoious philosophies in India/South Asia and political boundaries separated the once common genetic pool, Spirits of our ancestors will feel bad if we keep figting. India/Pak/mankind/Earth may perish, but only the Truth shall remain.

Posted by R Arora | Report as abusive

Pakistanis:
Ask yourself. India and you became independent at the same time. While India decided to bite the bullet and remain independent, you decided to be a beggar for ever and a cronie of the Brits and the USA. When I say “you” , I mean you, the power mongers of Pakistan who continually screwed your own people in a million ways: destroying any semblance of democracy; killing your own in the hundreds of thousand as you did in Bangladesh; becoming and remaining a beggar for over 60 years living off the alms thrown at you by the US for being a mercenary; becoming a terrorist state with no control over your own military and covert groups.

So, rather than crying at being treated differently by the world, be happy you are being treated the way you should. In fact, you need to be ostracized by the entire International community and thrown to the stone ages as is Burma. May be that will wake you up as a nation.

You want to be treated as others. Then emulate them. Become responsible to your own people and to the rest of the world. Live by norms that responsible sovereigns are expected to live by. Put your poor citizenry before your unscrupulous, dishonest power elite. Learn some self respect and a well deserved sense of shame at the shameful plight you guys are in due to your own making.
Change !!!!!!

Posted by V. Ramaswami | Report as abusive