Israel and India vs Obama’s regional plans for Afghanistan

November 15, 2008

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will Israel and India – the first the United States’ closest ally and the second fast becoming one of the closest – emerge as the trickiest adversaries in any attempt by the United States to seek a regional solution to Afghanistan?

The Washington Post reported earlier this week that the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama plans to explore a more regional strategy to the war in Afghanistan — including possible talks with Iran.

The idea has been fashionable among foreign policy analysts for a while, as I have discussed in previous posts here and here. The aim would be to capitalise on Shi’ite Iran’s traditional hostility to the hardline brand of Sunni Islam espoused by the Taliban and al Qaeda to seek its help in neighbouring Afghanistan. At the same time India would be encouraged to make peace with Pakistan over Kashmir to end a cause of tension that has underpinned the rise of Islamist militancy in Pakistan and left both countries vying for influence in Afghanistan.

But Israel has already cautioned Obama against talking to Iran, which it said would be a seen as a sign of weakness in efforts to persuade Tehran to curb its nuclear programme. And Obama’s suggestion that the United States should try to help resolve the Kashmir dispute has raised hackles in India, which resents any outside interference in what it sees as a bilateral dispute. That could make the two countries important allies in combating — or at least reshaping — any attempt to remould U.S. strategy. 

India and Israel have already built close defence ties, as underlined by this Times of India article.  And according to this Asia Times article by former Indian diplomat M K Bhadrakumar, India’s growing relationship with Israel, combined with U.S. pressure, is pushing Delhi to break off what was once a strategic partnership with Tehran. “At the root of it lies unprecedented US-Israeli interference in India’s Iran policy,” he writes.

Are we going to see more signs of Israel and India working together — if necessary to resist rather than support U.S. policy? And in an increasingly multi-polar world, will Obama discover that he needs to watch the United States’ friends as closely as its enemies to drive through his plans for change?

Comments

Some errors in the report. One is that Islamic militancy is linked to Kashmir. No. It started in 1947 when Jinnah the founder of Islamic Pakistan proclaimed that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together in a democratic, pluralistic India and wanted a separate nation for Muslims. There were murder of innocents to make sure the idea of Pakistan succeeds. After getting an Islamic Pakistan, they have not stopped from attacking India because they view India as Kufr India. India was attacked 4 major times and our lands ceased. They were many thousand of other attacks on India as part of their grand strategy of thousand cuts on India to bleed India. India will stay strong and as always wish to see a progressive Pakistan not mired in Islamic fundamentalism that causes more harm to the people of Pakistan.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

I think it was a colossal mistake by Obama to make such statement about India’s Super-sensitive Kashmir issue.That is exactly why one should not be president at 48. Indin-think tanks as well as Strategic planners are dis-appointed with Republicans exit from White-house. There is a fear in Indian circles that gains made in Indo-US ties with Bush’s (Who is a really smart guy according to Indian who understands international politics better than anyone else in US polity) welcome attitude will be wiped off by democrats and it will only make it harder for US in today multi-polar world to assert its own agenda. Jokingly in India instead of Obama we say “Oh-Bummer” !!

Posted by Jigish | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir is disputed territory acknowleged by india and Pakistan in United Nations Security Coucial several times. With military might India since 1947 with puppets was trying to subotage the rightous right of people of Jammu and Kashmir but Kashmiris determinatin with a full mass peaceful struggle now its settlement becomes important for the peace and economic development of the subcontinent-India must shut down rigidity and military might policies and show like same flexibility and sincertiy as Pakistan showed after Manmohan singh-Mushraff Islamabad meet- In my opinion as a Kashmiri and a victim of Indian state terrorism USA’s interfrence is important for early resolution of Kashmir dispute which will lead peace in the region- Key of peace in south asia is resolution of Kashmir dispute- Every peace lover wants settlement of Kashmir dispute.Pakistan, India and Kashmiris should sit together for the solution of dispute-Thanks

 

i notice nobody wants to talk about the neocons’ plans to break up pakistan…

…and nobody wants to talk about india’s fear of china…

…or pakistan’s alliance with china…

…or pakistan’s function as a route for persian gulf energy to china…

…or israel’s fear of pakistans’ nukes…

…or india’s fears of pakistans’ nukes…

…or israel’s need to close hormuz in a war with iran to spur pipeline construction to israel…

and finally, nobody wants to talk about growing evidence that obama is as fully in thrall to radical israeli americans as bush.

why is that?

Posted by wadosy | Report as abusive
 

The thing is US has been tired of fighting in Afghanistan and with allies refusing to pump in more troops, the headache has surged. Now that the war in Afghanistan, once considered as strategic depth of Pakistan,has spilled over to Pakistan and US enemies gaining ground there too, it was imperative for President-elect to seek options. Since Pakistan is busy with India over Kashmir dispute, it was aptly linked by Obama with Afghan conflict. Here in Kashmir, inhabitants have already wished US or UN interference and Pakistan too nodded for it, but India would not want Kashmir to be kept at par with other major conflicts of the world.
But since India and Pakistan have failed to solve the issue for past 61 years and the area being so much close to Xinjiang, Afghansitan where Al qaieda does operate, it would be prudent on the part of Obama to help it solve according to the wishes of its people.

http://www.umarblogs.blogspot.com

 

I find it highly amusing that Indians are so offended by what Obama’s saying,because he’s speaking the truth. India HAS been causing problems for Pakistan through its bases in Afghanistan,and Pakistan WANTS peaceful relations with its neighbour but NOT IF it makes mischief in our country.
Pakistan gets a lot of stick in the Indian media for its activities in India,and yes our government has done things there in the past that we as Pakistanis are not proud of,but has ANYONE EVER CONSIDERED INDIA’S ROLE IN PAKISTAN? I mean, RAW trained groups like the MQM way back in the 80s;more recently it has been involved in support of seccessionist groups like the Baloch Liberation Army. India has spread much instability throughout Pakistan and its high time it stopped,because peace will only be possible when BOTH SIDES lay down arms.

My message to Indians? We want peace with you,but only if covert support of groups in Balochistan and FATA stops.

Posted by Qasim Awan | Report as abusive
 

most likely, the only “wishes” obama will pay attention to are those of his israeli american advisors.

it’s just too damn bad that xinjiang is muslim, isnt it? …and way too bad they might have 150 billion barrels of oil… which throws a monkeywrench into the neocons’ plans for a “clash of civilizations”, pitting righteous judeo/christian/hindu armies against barbaric muslims…

so now, in order to gain control of xinjiang muslims’ oil, the heroic judeo/christian/hindu armies have to support barbaric muslims’ efforts to free themselves (and their oil) from their even more barbaric chinese masters.

inconvenient.

map: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6669/ xinjiangqu1.jpg

Posted by wadosy | Report as abusive
 

To Mr. Vijay – I would suggest you do some research on the history of partition. You can start with the Cabinet Mission Plan proposed by Cripps to leave India undivided by creating a three tier system that would allay Muslim fears of being sidelined by Hindus. The plan was accepted by both League and Congress, but the latter pulled out in the 11th hour. Why? Congress, not League, was responsible for the partition of India. Also, I am not sure what tens of thousands of Kashmiris protesting against the Indian government – you cant event hold elections in J&K – means? Kashmiris call India an occupying force. Fact. Why does India not want to hold a plebicite in J&K, as promised to the UN? Its called self-determination and nothing is wrong with it if the White House suddenly works out that without encouraging a resolution of Kashmir, south asia will continue to bring instability to the wider region.

Posted by Derick | Report as abusive
 

I wish obama will see beyound the usual rhetoric from US that india is a democracy and a natural ally of US. The only thing that is democratic about india is the elections that happen every five years.

India has some of the laws that go directly against the basic principles of democracy.
India had a law that allowed to keep prisioners without any reason for upto three years.

Torture in india is considered very acceptable by the government.

India is where newspaper officers are burnt and no action is taken against the culprits.

India is a combination of massive poverty and the ability of some to use this poverty for their gain.
I wish obama will see above this and genuinely support the real suffering in india and it means he has to take a hardline against the indian government in things such as labour rights, torture and poverty eradication.

If obama also goes along the line that india is important to keep china in check ,the first ones that will be affected are indian poor.

Posted by arvind | Report as abusive
 

Obama,

Please dont pay attention to indian political class starting with their prime minister.
They are one of the most unrelible,selfish, racist , egomaniac people.

I know most of the indians cant accept a black as the president of america even though the americans themselves accepted by a wide margin.

Posted by kannan | Report as abusive
 

Derick,

I would suggest you to read Maulana Kalam Azad book which is far more authentic & gives you a panaromic view about the players in the partition.You would improve your appreciation of the partition story than relying on documents provided by the british Government. One of the laughing stock of the British leadership was Primeminister churchill who said i have not become primeminister of england to preside over the liquidation of British empire.So it is naive to believe the cripps commission had a honorable intent to give freedom to Indian Subcontinent & create a structure of lasting peace.

The document for Kashmir accension to India was Harisingh Autograph.I find it very amusing to get lectured on UN & International Law when the President of US decided to Invade Iraq without proper sanctions & cooking some documents called as intelligence report, it established a precedence how much of credence UN resoloutions have in this world. Just as it is difficult for USA to consider the freedom struggle of Alaska so too is the Indian position on Kashmir.

I think it is important for white house not to spread its tentacles & meddle in other parts of the world & make a simple situation messier. Playing this lamb vs lamb story of china with taiwan,India with Pakistan,Putting missile shield in poland,throwing missiles in syria & pakistan are all proof of what whitehouse motivation is. They are more keen to humble & violate every laws known to human being.It will be a tragedy to think whitehouse can broker peace deals in South Asia.

By the way elections have been held in Kashmir for many years, The demonstrations are also part of a democratic protests like what it is prevalent in US for gay rights.If we have to go by your definition of self determinition, you will have India broken into 15 parts & Pakistan into 4 parts , Russia into 10 parts & China into another 10 parts. The only person whom i can think of benefiting in this exercise will be United States Of Arrogance,who will go unchecked in this wide wide world.

I suggest you better apply logic & reasoning next time you post something, lest we mistake you for someone who is another ignorant american commentator who displays his idiocacy.

Posted by vijay1 | Report as abusive
 

The blame game continues here as well as everywhere else that such forums exist! I think Obama would do well to start with a clean slate, and India and Pakistan too actually make efforts to solve the vexing problem muddled now beyond recognition. The fact exists that Kashmir has been alienated by India now, but rather than mastering and winning the blame game, the participants in this forum would do well to understand each other’s points of view.
By the way, I am an Indian living in India, and the tortures that someone was talking about in the earlier posts do exist in some places, but it would be wrong to say that there is no democracy. But we Indians are notoriously slow in making decisions in public life..hence often culprits go unpunished.

Posted by Pinak | Report as abusive
 

I am a kashmiri from AZAD KASHMIR. I would like to remind all the Indian biggots on this website and else where that Kashmiris will never forgive the Indians for what they have done to Kashmir and the propaganda they churn out about Pakistan. You have no idea about how much we hate you. The Idea that Kashmiris can not walk in their land unless we ask for permission from the Hindu Fashists. The time will come when u will pay, bcoz we are never going to forget. Even if it takes us 100 years or more.

Posted by Kashmiri | Report as abusive
 

Hi,

There are so many points to remember when Western World speaks about Kashmir and Afghanistan. Why Indians fear a free referendum in Kashmir – they may loose it. And how – it is a region which has been demographically manipulated by its religious neighbour and its natives become minority. It was peaceful till 1990s until infested with foreign aided terrorism. The people of J&K had more over normal life like anyone in rest of India. Problems started when Pakistan encouraged Muslims to fight against the Indian establishment. But does anyone think the referendum will solve the problems?? No – the same Pakistan strategy will becomes India’s strategy. Once its Hindu minorities wage so called “freedom struggle” against the new Pakistan administrators, probably it is the time for another referendum which will never ever solve this issue.

Can anyone in the US administration accepts a claim by New Mexico for a independent status or dreams to join Mexico claiming presence of strong Latino population – No one in US will accept it. The same logic applies to Indians. They don’t want their country to be torn apart by some one in the US trying to grab their slice in the world history.

So what is the solution?

My suggestion is – formation of UNION OF KASHMIR – AZAD KASHMIR (PAK), INDIAN KASHMIR and AKSAI KASHMIR (China) can form the union as affiliated regions to the respective countries.

Defence and Foreign affairs can be with respective central governments but the local administration under the guidance of Kashmir elders overseen by a committee of governors from each India, Pakistan & possibly UN…(but not sure about the UN role!)

Posted by Appu | Report as abusive
 

Kashmiri,

Your fate is to hate everyone, It proves your love & tolerance to the world. Can i ask you something if by mistake God had given you birth to a different religion than islam would you have held the same position you hold now?.

Assume you kill every indian & convert everyone to islam what else is in store for you in this world?.

I hope you do make some efforts to Love than to Hate & respect things are acquired by civility including freedom of india by non violence.

Posted by vijay1 | Report as abusive
 

Kasmiri,

I am really curious to know whether by hating Indians are you going to get a special salvation trophy from your government or the god whom you obey.

I can’t believe barbarians like you exist in the 21st century. When every human being wants to progress to a better understanding of life, help overcome poverty & get the freedom to live the way one wants you come across as a torch bearer of 6th century teaching.

What are other noble teachings you want to share. I am very interested to learn them.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

Arvind,
“India has some of the laws that go directly against the basic principles of democracy.
India had a law that allowed to keep prisioners without any reason for upto three years.

Torture in india is considered very acceptable by the government.

India is where newspaper officers are burnt and no action is taken against the culprits.

India is a combination of massive poverty and the ability of some to use this poverty for their gain.


I’m not sure what you’re last point is supposed to mean, but you have two good ones about what a democracy should have. Freedom ofthe press (meaning they won’t be burnt for publishing something a group doesn’t like) and freedom from wrongful imprisonment (meaning they’ll tell you what you are in jail for and give you a fair trial). As an American born and bred, I have o idea if India does these things or not, but a democracy should not. However there is also no such thing as atrue democracy anymore. It is all representative, whihc means every democracy has to deal with a class of slimy politicians, who none of us should trust. But there is one key to a democracy you forgot to mention. Compromise. No one can solve every problem, and certainly not in 4 years in a country that isn’t their own. The idea is to get some and give some so that everyone is a little better off then they were before, or a conflict is alittle less bloody (or finally ends)

Posted by alex | Report as abusive
 

Vijay
Dont call Kashmiri a barbarian. Kashmiris hate Indians because Indian Army has raped many Kashmiri women, demolished their housed, inflicted barbaric crimes and killed 80,000 Kashmiris. Come on man, their is a freedom struggle going on in Kashmir. Do you expect Kashmiris to love India after so much death and destruction has been thrustr upon them? This hatred will keep increasing as Kashmir remain under the tight grip of Indian military, as long as Kashmiris are denied their freedom.
Pakistanis suport their Kashmiri brothers in their fight against Indian state terrorism. And you never try to related Islam with hatred or barbarism. Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and love.
May I ask you, Indian Army has unleashed worst crimes against humanity in Kashmir? mostly the Amry personnel are hindu? right? does hinduism preach such barbarity?
Kashmir will be free soon. InshAllah.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Vijay
I am curious of the plight of hindu low caste dalits in India who live in extreme poverty? The dalit hindus comprise almost 25% of the population of India? am I right? I heard they are not even allowed to pass across the shadow of high class hindus.
While Islam is a religion of brotherhood and teaches a lesson of unity and equality, oneness of God.
Now I dont want to draw any comparisons between India and Pakistan or Hindusim and Islam. I know you are an Indian hindu and I am a muslim Pakistani. All I am saying is lets debate in a proper manner. Come up with rebuttals, logic and facts. back your statements with examples and I will let you know Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Progressive and very much compatible with the 21st century. You must know many things in Islam were researched upon by modern scientists and found to be useful for humans. A testament that Islam is a progressive religion.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

In an increasingly multi-polar world & a fanatic cult figure out to drive through his plans for change(huh? for what??), will friends of the United States discover that they need to watch their back as closely as from their enemies….

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Derick
“Why does India not want to hold a plebicite in J&K, as promised to the UN?”
—for that to happen you shall have to first ask your Paki friends to withdraw their forces from the Northern region & Pak occupied kashmir as they have pledged in the UN as the prerequisite for a plebicite in the ‘whole’ of J&K state..

“nothing is wrong with it if the White House suddenly works out…”

– don’t you guys take u to be some ‘Iraq’ ‘Afghanistan’ —LAY OFF !

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

To All Pakistani,

LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE TO YOUR COUNTRY which is going to bankrupt in few days and is totally destroyed by Taliban
and fanatic muslims.This is your future and the result of what ISI and mullas(imam) have taught militant’s to destroy INDIA.Now tell me where is your ALLAH when you would need money and shelter to save yourself from TALIBANI
and fanatic muslims.
THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN INDIA CAUSE OUR ARMY OBEY US.THEY DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO.

Posted by replytopakis | Report as abusive
 

OBAMA IS PRESIDENT OF THE USA, NOT THE WORLD, HE IS JUST ANOTHER IN THE LONG LINE OF POLITICIANS THAT WILL DO NOTHING, THE USA DOES NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TELLING OTHER COUNTRYS WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO. THE US ELECTIONS ARE ALL RIGGED ANYWAY, AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN..

Posted by sick of it all | Report as abusive
 

It is obvious that india and Israel are becoming closer as it is easy that India is beginning to resemble its approach towards Kashmir in the same manner that Israel deals with Palestine. An illegal occupation. Just like Israel has no business being in Palestinian territory, India has no business being in Kashmir. They both are close allies of the U.S because they both the need the U.S and are incapable of being able to get anything done by themselves. Look at Israel’s threats towards iran for example, they openly threat iran of bombing them but are afraid to do with the help of the U.S. Now India needs the U.S in dealing with Pakistan. Indians wine by saying how the issue with Pakistan is a religious issue, yet in their own country their own religious extremist are killing and raping Christians, muslims, and Sikhs. This is the samething as what the Zionists in Israel are doing towards their fellow secular jews by killing anyone who wishes to leave peacefully with the arabs. It is not long ago that india was the biggest toilet bowl in asia. And Israel is still not recognized by most of its neighboring countries. So in order to show that they are relevant, they cling to the U.S’s legs as means to show their artifical strength. These two think that by illegally occupying territories that do not belong to them and then become America’s puppies that they will be able to accomplish something, but all that is going to do is create more enemies for them and they will always have civil unrest no matter how much they think they have “progressed”.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Miss Sidney,
Do you know deeds were done by the government of Australia with the original people (Tribal people).Their kids were forcefully taken from the parents so that their entire culture would end and also their tradition.They were brought up by Australian nurses!
FIRST TELL US ABOUT THAT AND AFTER THAT COMMENT ON INDIA\’S ROLE IN KASHMIR .TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE INDIA HAS NEVER DONE SOMETHING SO BRUTAL AND HEINOUS COMPARE TO WHAT WAS DONE BY AUSTRALIAN TO THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE.
PROUD TO BE AN INDIAN .

Posted by replytopakis | Report as abusive
 

Replytopakis,

THAT, is your response back??? Lol, pathetic, now u r going to compare Australia to India and think “oh it’s not as bad”?? Please try better then that. And I can see why you are misinformed about Kashmir as “to the best of you knowledge” to which you seem to be very very limited to as indicated by your weak and senseless response. I suggest you do your research on exactly what the Indian government is doing in J&K and think twice before you embarrass yourself in these types of forums.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Miss Sidney,
I know the whole history of Kashmir and India.In 1947(Before independence), the population of Kashmir was evenly divided between Hindus and Muslim(Approx 50% HINDU AND 50% MUSLIM) and the king of kashmir was a Hindu also. But after Pakistan supported Muslim militants group and the muslim population also supported milltants all the hindu pandit(VERY RESPECTED PERSON IN HINDUISM) had to escape from there to india.Can you imagine All the pain suffer by them you would when you would be forced out of Australia.

NOW WE HAVE HALF A MILLION HINDU THERE(INDIAN ARMY) to control Pakistan and Muslim militant.AND TO REMIND THEM OF THEIR WRONGDOING AND ALSO PUNISH THEM FOR THAT.

LET ME TELL YOU ONE THING CLEARLY THAT YOUR COUNTRY IS BASED UPON THE SUPPRESSION OF THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE (WHICH was accepted by the Australian prime minister publicly)
British people where ever they went they killed people for their own profit.American killed Indians(original people of America) and the same way Canadian killed .
SO IF I SEE THE HISTORY YOU GOT NO RIGHT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT INDIA.CAUSE YOUR FOREFATHERS DID ALL THAT STUFF.

SO MISS SYDNEY
FIRST TELL US ABOUT THE ROLE OF AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT
IN THE KIDNAPPING OF THOUSANDS OF ORIGINAL PEOPLE CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS AND BRINGING THEM UP IN FOSTER CARE OF AUSTRALIAN NURSES.

AFTER THAT I WILL CLARIFY WHY SHOULD NOT LEAVE KASHMIR.
PROUD TO BE AN INDIAN .

Posted by replytopakis | Report as abusive
 

Lotta hate being splashed around here, but thanks to this article and the comments following I’ve learned a lot about this issue. Here in the US they don’t teach us much about world history and hell we don’t even learn the truth about US history until we get to college.

Bottomline is we all live in either a dictatorship or a monarchy, the politicians we elect are subserviant to the owners of companies who give campaign contributions and lobbyists making the company-owners essentially kings. That’s the way the world will work as long as we have a monetary policy.

Posted by Michael | Report as abusive
 

Sidney,

You got many facts wrong about Kashmir. Kashmir was not something occupied by India, It was part of India.The problem in Kashmir is a particular religious group wants to wrest control because the demographics are in their favor.The commitment of India to kashmir people was through article 370 enacted 60 years ago which prevents other people from india to permanently settle there.

India is a pluralistic society with 20 languages & many religious sect, our unity is in our diversity.It would never appeal to Indian citizen to see any of our states getting divided & charting a independant course because of religious or lingua dominance.

As far your view on our foreign policy is concerned, the only country which majority of Indians can relate to in the intercourse of our 60 years history which stood by us through thick & thin was Russia.Indian government official relationship with israel is just 10 years old but predominantly we were more integrated with Persia where those relationship dawned 5000 years back before establishment of Islam.

If you are really keen to know about Kashmir i suggest you to read books of Karan singh – kashmir , he was son of the former ruler harisingh. You can also read a few biography of Jawahar Nehru written by MJ Akbar who is a renowned journalist who practices islam.I am sure if Pakistan was a secular state like India then the events of Kashmir would have taken a different turn.It would be unfair to comare the practices of a theocratic state with a democracy where religion & government are completely seperated.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

In respect to your note on Kashmir, Let me answer from what i know or what i have gathered. A solution would be possible through a political process & not by arms.Hating somebody is a democratic right, the only thing it exposes is one’s ignorance.

In respect of your questions on dalits, let me reiterate we have been a society which has been 5000 years old, many practices are good & also evil.We had issues with sati, child marriage & caste based hierarchy system. The first 2 have been eliminated & on dalits the government has an affirmative action programe to represent them adequately in educational & government jobs. A fact to be noted is there is a commitment to invest in education which is 6% of GDP,may be 30 years from now when a new generation sprouts in our country you would have left behind the issue of dalits.We do not mix issues of governance with religious thinking & the needs of equality is a right for civil society & provided in our constitution. If you ask me are dalits better of today from 60 years back, i would say yes.Am i a witness to see this progress in the villages, i would again say yes.

I just want to ask from you what is pakistan government to familyplanning & also to equal rights for men & women in matrimonial affairs. Do you see progress where country first takes precedence over religion.What are some major social reforms launched after your independance. What is your government plan to invest in education.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

Vijay,
I am glad to see that at least you posses enough knowledge and intellect to be able to respond back with an intelligent response, which more then what I can say for replytopakis who continues to use any argument that is weak and baseless. Although you raise a good point, it does however end with a notion that basically the Indian government has the right to “punish” the people who want to wrest it from Indian control. You are correct in saying that the article which entitles Kashmiri protection is being upheld; however it is the Kashmiri who are asking for the Indian government to let them be. Many of them do not want to be part of India or Pakistan, however now that they are being occupied by the Indian army; it is only pushing them more to be part of Pakistan. I agree that Kashmir should not be part of Pakistan, because they cannot even control the problems in their country now, so no reason to allow them to pollute Kashmir with their own problems. Now in your points you make on India history, thanks for that but you are preaching to the quire. I am aware of India’s history as well as its extremely diverse demographics. It is that very reason why the illegal occupation of Kashmir is not in their best interest. They are not allowing the people who live there, the right to live like the rest of us in their own lands. That is why you see the rise of “militancy”. It is this very reason why you Israel have problems with so called “militancy”. When you occupy one’s land and take away freedom in their own land, how do expect them to respond? One man’s militant is another man’s freedom fighter.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Please please

First win the war in Iraq and in Afghan then fix the Palestine issue, once these three fixed then solve your healthcare problem.

Now it\’s kashmir tomorrow it will be punjab, assam etc.,

there are plenty of states which will want to Kashmir way

You should also:
Learn history
Be brave
Fight to win the enemy
Don\’t pay ransom
don\’t show your weakness.

and come to India.

Posted by Jaypee | Report as abusive
 

Hello Sydney,

Replytopaki is showing his vent as also many Indians due to a religion & neighbour which is frustrating our goals to eliminate poverty & live in peace. One of the major problems with people who have been practicing islam is they have not kept pace to the New Global era where Individual rights & Civil liberty are important.They need to reform their government from religion,there is need for family planning in poor countries,there has to be investments in education which promotes scientific temperments,there is need for pro business initiative.Jinnah original vision of Modern Pakistan modelled like Kamal Pasha turk of Turkey has been lost in that country, It has now become a hot bed for militants & lawlessness where a few people are pocketing money & for others they are preaching islam to die for their religion.

A strong leader is required in the Muslim world like Obama who can purge the society of many evils which are not consistent to todays living.Even rich gulf countries are more known to exploit people from poor countries & there is no fair or minimum wages, nor are laws which promotes equality.

In respect to your question of Kashmir, political process is the answer & not arms.From the way i believe it people of Kashmir may not want independance considering how a few people in name of religion may sabotage their rights also. This is my own view i may be wrong also.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

sidney
-what do you know about Jammu, Leh, Ladakh & the inhabitants of ‘Azad Kashmir’ or is your knowledege of them also Ostrich-like of the aborginies of Australia..

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Vijay
‘i believe it people of Kashmir may not want independance considering how a few people in name of religion may sabotage their rights also. This is my own view i may be wrong also.’

–inspite of boycott calls by the so-called, self-styled, western-media protege leaders- the democratic reponse & the high voter turnout by the kashmiri local proves that you are absolutely right, much to the chagrin of the Author of this post…lol

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

vijay,
You are beginning to turn the kashmir into a religious issue, which really is not the case. I bet you say that, because obviously, MAJORITY of the people living there are muslim. who have openly claimed that they do not want to be part of indian or pakistan, but because of the illegal occupation by the indian army, they are now aligning themselves with pakistan. I agree that pakistan is a huge problem and electing zirdari ( the George W. Bush of pakistan) is not going to help their conditions, but J&K should be treated as a separate issue. Now in your statement when u mentioned India’s efforts to eliminate poverty, well how can that be when the majority religion, hinduisim, consists a caste system that automatically decides the status of people living in the country. their fate is determines just because of the caste they are born, how is that ever going to help eliminate poverty when a religion decided that because of a person’s birth, their status in life is set? I agree with u on other issues, that the pakistanis have lost sight of the future of their country because of islam’s internal struggle with the extremist. I agree with you, when you say that a political process is the correct way to handle things, but what do you expect people who are generally poor to do when their land is illegally occupied by an armed army who closes them off from the rest of civilization? it is the same thing that the zionists regime of israel does to millions of palestinians who have no basic human rights. I know india is a much better country then israel and I hope it does become just like it.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Hello Sidney,

The Government of India does not have a law which discriminates people on the basis of caste or religion. Our constitution is a republic model of Equal Rights & Liberty for men & women. A man cannot marry 4 wives or a women cannot have 4 husband.If somebody is found to discriminate he can be booked for severe punishment.Whereas some countries have laws which are not equal like you may have read in newspapers about stoning a person to death or plucking one of his eyes. There is duplicity by the west & their journalists where they are not forcing those countries to change these laws to make them consistent with todays world.

A society & government are different, Laws of the governemnt have to be equal, when these laws are enacted of equality, subsequently their implementation will have challenges but it will get honored in due course of time. Theocratic states have to give way to republican models & laws.

The problem which you mention is about society where the caste system is prevalent, i have detailed my reply to Umair which you can read. Reforms in the society will take time to heal, it can be healed only through quality education which the indian government is committed to spend of 6% of our GDP.

The issue in kashmir is not about fundamental rights for citizens or any laws which are discriminatory, the issue is about a state which has a muslim majprity wants to seperate from India because they want to have a islamic state. Considering the fact that the people in kashmir are muslims the pakistani government in the past has been supporting a armed uprising. As you know every society has trouble mongers who want to enrich themselves at the cost of the poor. Like what you rightly pointed out about some corrupt people or military men who bankrupted their country & made themselves rich & gave religion to the poor. That is what you need to focus.

Today the planet will be safe only if we have world citizenship & not religious government, journalist & western media are not trying to reform these practices by putting pressure on their government to have sanctions on countries which do not have laws of fairness, equality & justice.They are being dishonest to themselves & their professions.Religion is a personal domain & not domain of government.In your next post focus only on what i have written, on the kashmir issue we can debate a little later.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

sidney

“but J&K should be treated as a separate issue.”

–Exactly! Why should the rest of the J&K 40% population live under the rule of Kashmiri Muslim leaders or Pakistan, (whatever & who cares) in an ‘Islamic’ country against their wishes??

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Indian, just look at what you wrote and you will see the answer on why kashmiris should be able to decide their own fate. You stated that 40% of people in J&K do not want to live under a Kashmiri leadership or be part of Pakistan, which means 60% of the other people do. In a TRUE democracy, it is the majority that wins. Obama won 60% of votes in America and McCain got the other 40%, so guess who is president? The guy who won 60%. Your point is weak. Vijay, another excellent statement from you. Again, you make excellent points, however, even though the India’s constitituion does not discriminate as u mentioned, that does not mean it is not a major problem. There has been a rise in Hindu extremist violence against Christians and muslims because of the lower caste hindus are converting to these religions in an effort to get out of a discriminatory caste system that does not allow them to progress. Yes some of the laws in the so called “Islamic” countries are inhumane and actually go against real Islamic law. The treatment of women, the ridiculos punishment laws are just some of things that contradict Islamic rules. These are self imposed rules implemented by a bunch of illiterate backward cockaroaches of society that are detrimental to all muslims and dangerous to other religions and societies. You mention that gov’t and society are different, but how true do u think that is? Yes on paper they are written down as to appear separate but they are not implemented that way. That is why you see supporters of terrorists organizations like VHP and BJP who are in prominent positions are able to basically get away with murder and crimes against minorities. You said the problem in Kashmir is not about fundamental rights or discriminatory laws, when that is exactly the problem there. However, because majority of the population there is muslim so it portrayed as a religious issue because of some so called “armed” militants. Yes there were attempts to start a serious armed militancy there, but it died out. Kashmiris were aware of the consequences of that and they did not want to use violence so they decided not to take that up even though a few of them do. Yes you do see frequent demonstrations, which they have right to considering a gov’t that supposedly does not discriminate is illegally taking land and designating to another religious group. Kashmiris have never said they wanted an Islamic state, they always have mainted they want a separate state, many muslims don’t want anything to do with Pakistan, but you see them side with the Pakistanis because Pakistan does not illegally occupy their land. The Indian army has closed roads and trade routes and has limited medical and food supplies to the area so how do say that human rights are not being violated? I agree with you when you say that world citizenship and fair and democratic governments are in place over any religious government. Because of the diverse nature of the world these days, there does need be a separation of religion and government in order to make sure that no religion, race, ethnicity, or sex is discriminated against and laws are just.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Sidney,

A part of me really want to post some positive things, But it seems it will go wasted before your rigidity.

1. Christian Missionaries work in backward Part of India, Conversions are done through Material Allurement & not of spirtual alleviation as you are thinking.Conversions have caused social tensions not reliefs as you have been suggesting.

2.In India the problem with conversions is there is a religious one upmanship which says a particular god can give you salvation faster than their current gods.

3.If demographics changes, there will be another uprising where another sydney 40 years later will raise with the demand that we need to be seperated from the Union of India because we don’t like India.

4.The principles of nationhood means unity in diversity, it applies for the whole India, raking up an issue with help of foreign hands & destabilizing a country is not called freedom, it is called sedition.

5.We expect laws to be enacted in countries where theocratic states are prevalent which are consistent for equality,liberty & Justics.If laws are established then you can bring to book culprits.Western Journalist have been dishonest in this aspect.

6.Political parties including US have political appointees since they need to ensure implementation of people’s mandate. Where tax payers money are diverted to their personal pocket or they introduce inhuman laws they will be booked for offense.VHP or RSS don’t have political muscle to influence Bureacracy. Infact when BJP government was governing both the parties were more disappointed than pleased.Conflict of interest is always a problem more so in countries where the quality of education is suspect in countries like ours.

7. If you are pretty strongly convinced on the subject you are talking then you are pretty naive to think Kashmir will remain a republic not a theological state. Just an example of bangladesh wich started as a secular republic got converted into a Islamic country.

I strongly suggest you need to improve your knowledge on Jurispudence, Spread of religion, Ethics & foreign relationship before you make some blatant statements.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

sidney
“it is the majority that wins. Obama won 60% of votes in America and McCain got the other 40%, so guess who is president?”

— 125 billion Indians vote Kashmir is India & a mere 3million vote otherwise, so simply by your on logic- the majority wins, what’s your problem then? huh? or do you have different yardsticks for western democracy & Indian democracy?? (Dumb to the core is the least I can say)

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Correction-
It’ 1.25 billion Indian i.e. almost 99.9% vs .1%
“so guess who is Ignorant?”

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

indian, why should it be up to rest of india to vote on a territory that does not belong to them? kashmir is a territory that does not belong to india or pakistan and should belong to either one of them. the only difference is that india is illegally occupying it.so it doesn’t matter what the 1.25 billion flea bags in india want and it does’t matter what 150 million flea bags in pakistan want. IT IS NOT THEIRS. get over it. and yes there is a different yard stick in american and india democracy. half if american population is not a bunch of illiterate, backward population. so most of them just vote as they are told. vijay on your man points, you have basically turned a political discussion of kashmir into discussion on religious ideaoligies. the main reason you do that is because kashmir is majortiy muslim so you use the whole “they are muslim, therefor they are militants” argument which appers rather weak and pathetic. just recently two kashmiris were shot dead because they were throwing stones. I know in your little backwards world, those stones might a sign of great danger and threat, but that just proves my point that India’s illegal occupation of kashmir is unjustified.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Sidney
India is not a country like Australia & America, which psychotic Inquisitionist in the garb of religion & cultureless barbaric marauders have occupied by exterminating & plundering the hapless natives, where the Red Indians & the Aborigines are almost extinct due to mass genocide by the ‘white race’,
Nothing different could have been expected from you as you are also one of those parasites- self-styled global conscience keepers, moral brigadiers whose own hands are coloured with blood of the innocents but wish to look the other way…India is beyond your comprehension—

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Sidney,

Talk anything you want, You need to understand that US/West will not help People in Tibet, In the same way they may not want to involve themselves here in kashmir.
After 5 years Indian economy will grow to $1.5Trillion people will be more keen to work with india than to bother about these things. As far as Pakistan is concerned they will change their attitude, their people will question them that while they are suffering how come kashmiris are getting 1200crores central aid whereasa bigger province do not get those kind of money when people pay them so much of taxes. You have to be practical in these matters.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

it is not possible for an australian to have such love for porkistan. i reckon sydney is a paki.

Posted by mel | Report as abusive
 

SIDNEY…
u r forgetting that IN THE STATE OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR …u have hindus as well..may nt be as large as the muslims [presenty] ..but if u count those KASHMIRI HINDUS who have fled to other parts of INDIA… then POPULATION of MUSLIMS have a serous competitor… n these pll undoubtedly wud vote for INDIA..n as far as ILLEGAL occupation is concerened… i think u shud read ur history……!!!!!

Posted by JAI | Report as abusive
 

aa,while i ws reading ur scripts i wonder who r the other ppl to make desissions about the valley which doesnt belong to them!i m a kashmiri ,i kn how much we hav suffered by the indian army ther.i hav seen the pain the hatred the damage they caused.kashmir is a disputed land.i dt wanna comment which side will b good fr us india or pakistan,bt yes all the kashmiri souls want that indian army must leave our land,n for ths we are ready to pay to any extend.untill they r there dt expect a kashmiri in any part of the world,has any good thoughts about india!

Posted by nahida haleem | Report as abusive
 

aa,yes we kashmiries will never forget the way indian army treated us.never!.no matter wherever we are we will remain kashmiries and will keep hating indian army.

 

WHAT ABOUT UNITED WORLD

Posted by Himanshu Bisht | Report as abusive
 

Sydney,
Kashmiris do decide about their own fate. They are empowered to decide their representatives in state assembly and central parliament. Indian democracy provides enough regional autonomy, and it is proliferated upto the level of village body. Now, the problem with Kashmiri muslas is sourced straignt from arabic moon god ( aka Allah)’s manual Korun…Wherever the muslas are majority, kill and destroy the non-muslas and make it 100% musla land…wherever the muslas are minority, try to extract every pound of flesh and then get separated…This is exactly opposite to tolerant democractic norm, and should not be allowed to grow…What you see in Kashmir, you see similar stuff in Thailand, Mynmar, Philipines elasewhere in Asia too, alongwith Russia…Kashmiris are geneticaly like other indians and if you separate the beduin moon god and his messenger ( aka Islam),Kashmir should be part of India…You need to educate yourself on Indian history….Kashmir is not gift from beduin moon god, allah….Now, related to issue of suppression, why the people of Ladakh are not feeling “suppressed” under India rule? Why not the people of TN feeling suppressed under Indian rule? IF you are from UK, be careful. You may find similar stuff in Bradford or other moslem ghettoes…The excuse will be the same…

Posted by Nikus | Report as abusive
 

Nahida..
Indian army is treating Kashmiri moslems, the way they deserved to be…Can you recall the jihadi uprising and targetting Pundits? Or it is sanctioned in Korun and so is not crime?

Posted by Nikus | Report as abusive
 

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