Pakistan, India and the United Nations

December 10, 2008

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

India has asked the United Nations Security Council to blacklist the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the Pakistani charity which it says is a front for the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, blamed by New Delhi for the attacks on Mumbai. But how far is India prepared to go in engaging the Security Council, given that it has resisted for decades UN invention over Kashmir?

Indian newspapers have suggested that India invoke UN Security Council Resolution 1373, passed after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, and requiring member countries to take steps to curb terrorism.  The latest of these calls came from N. Ram, Editor-in-Chief of Indian newspaper The Hindu, who said India must respond to the Mumbai attacks “in an intelligent and peaceful way”.  

So is India preparing to break a long-standing taboo about United Nations intervention?  It first turned to the United Nations in 1948, after India and Pakistan began their first war over Kashmir. The Security Council mandated a ceasefire and India’s then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru also promised a plebiscite in the former kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir (comprising land now held by India, Pakistan and China) to allow the people to decide whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan.

Since then the UN Resolutions have become one of the major bones of contention in the tortuous relationship between India and Pakistan. Until relatively recently, Pakistan insisted that India make good its pledge to hold a plebiscite, while India insisted this had been superseded by the Simla accord following the 1971 war, in which the two countries agreed to resolve all their disputes bilaterally.

Before anyone leaps to judgment on this, I’d recommend reading the exact wording of the UN Security Council Resolutions. Here is the PDF link to the April 1948 resolution, which makes clear that Pakistan must withdraw fighters first from its side of Jammu and Kashmir, followed by a progressive withdrawal of Indian troops, to allow a plebiscite to take place.  It also says that the choice for the people of Jammu and Kashmir was whether to join India or Pakistan; independence — at least as far as the Resolution goes — was not an option.

For those who comment regularly on this blog, I’m aware this is a two-paragraph simplification and am happy to follow up in the comments section. But for the purposes of the present day, what are people saying?

“If you are scared to refer to it (the UN Security Council) because somebody else will raise Kashmir, then you have got into a defensive state of mind and have lost the battle even before you have started,” The Hindu quotes N. Ram as saying.

In her excellent (French-language) blog, le Figaro correspondent Marie-France Calle notes that while internationalising the Kashmir issue is taboo for India, the country is no longer what it was after the December 2001 attacks on the Indian parliament brought it close to war with Pakistan.  The country has matured and India has acquired an international status that it did not have in 2001, she writes. “And because India has matured, there is talk of Delhi going to the United Nations Security Council to put pressure on Pakistan, rather than acting unilaterally.”

The problem for India, however, is that it is reluctant to see any development which reduces its relationship with Pakistan to the Kashmir problem. It argues that Kashmir is a pawn used to pin down Indian troops to prevent Pakistan from having to defend its long border against its much bigger neighbour.

And in that context, it is worth reading the comments made by Pakistan’s United Nations envoy (given to me by Lou Charbonneau, my Reuters colleague at the United Nations). The envoy condemned the Mumbai attacks, quoting an op-ed for the New York Times written by Pakistan’s President Asif Ali Zardari. The envoy also said:

 ”In Kashmir, Pakistan is exercising restraint in international forums, and this is how we would have liked to see the aftermath of the Mumbai incident as well. We are all aware that the Kashmir situation is the root cause of problems between India and Pakistan. Would it not be a good time to do away with the root cause by pledging to resolve not just with words but with deeds and action as we have done today in Pakistan and get this problem away from us all. How should we proceed?”

So can India, and will India, go to the United Nations, and run the risk of seeing the Kashmir problem internationalised? The Hindu says that “India’s diplomatic and political capabilities would be tested in the coming weeks”, a comment that could be equally applied to Pakistan’s diplomats.

(And as an aside to regular followers of this blog. I’m deliberately not addressing the question of how China would respond to any appeal to the Security Council, as this seems to belong in a different post. But what do you make of this op-ed in the People’s Daily about what it sees as a growing strategic partnership between India and Russia?)

(Photo:fishermen in Kashmir/Fayaz Kabli)

43 comments

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UNSCR 1373 is under Chapter-7 i.e. enforceable by force. Kashmir resolutions are not. UNSCR 1373 is for all countries of the world. Kashmir resolutions are not.

There is no comparison. India is not asking the UNSC to mediate. India is just asking the UNSC to follow through on its earlier resolution.

Pakistan will have to ban Jamaat-ud-Dawa and whatever new name it takes after the ISI moves all its assets to a new front. The funny thing was, when Pakistan security forces “raided” that terror camp in Muzaffarabad, half the Pakistani newspapers (Jang, News, Nawaiwaqt) reported it as a “Jamaat-ud-Dawa HQ” and the other half (Daily Times, Dawn, Khabrein) reported it as a Lashkar-e-Taiba camp. This shows that JuD and LeT are interchangeable for everyone in Pakistan and are essentially the same organization.

Given that the UNSC has already banned LeT for being an Al Qaeda affiliate, there should be no problems banning its new front JuD.

Posted by Rajat | Report as abusive

I am certain India will come up with “clever” answer to the question posed. Implementation of UN resolution will be right way to solve Kashmir issue. As far as banning any and all extremist organizations is concerned, I am fully in favor of it, just include RSS and similar fanatics and hate groups in the list.

Posted by ma | Report as abusive

Interesting comments, Myra. A discussion on the relevance of the 1948 resolution is pretty hard to find, though Pakistan insists on this. This doesn’t sound out from India, but this is the way I look at it: Pakistan-administered Kashmir is populated not only by Pakistani soldiers (as is the situation in India) but non-Kashmiri Pakistanis. This is not true of the Indian side, where the country has taken pains to ensure that non-Kashmiris cannot buy land or settle down permanently. India’s failing in Kashmir in that context has been its inability to protect Kashmiri Hindus from retaining their position in the state.

Another situation that was not part of 1948: India now claims parts of Kashmir that was absorbed into Chinese territory. Pakistan has relinquished its claims on this territory. A plebiscite now looks pretty one-sided in the current context.

The fact is, India considers the Kashmiri secessionist views to have come up at a difficult time- Maoists and other insurgent elements gnaw at India’s vitals and wresting KAshmir by force from India is not only impractical but unjust, especially when the secessionists claim moral high ground so often when they take to terror.

When the groups that have publicly given up violence take part in India’s elections, the cy goes up from their violent counterparts that these are turncoats. If at all India and Pakistan’s problems are to be solved, simply dividing Kashmir will not be the answer, but all issues- Kashmir, Hyderabad, possibly even Sindh, may need to be diplomatically resolved with the right people at the table. It is simplistic to suggest that a plebiscite be held and the will of the people upheld, when in reality all it will achieve is a perpetuation of enmity and mistrust.

I’m yet to hear anything from Pakistan to build confidence between the countries in discussing these issues. In negotiations having a certain concern for the other party’s considerations is a non-negotiable.

There is precedent for India’s mistrust of all thrid parties, including the UN, in resolving this issue. Instead of judging India on this record, why shouldn’t we ask a more vital question: is India justified in viewing the UN with skepticism? After all, the security council is filled with countries that have a strategic position vis-avis India, and it doesn’t involve solving the Kashmir issue. Their interests are military, economic, regional and tactical; and in China’s case, to an extend contrary to India’s interests. The other members do not necessarily have a stake in ensuring fairness and are influenced duly or unduly by the above larger powers. Isn’t this also the reason why India resists Mr. Obama’s overtures to sit down and talk to India and Paskitan about Kashmir? After all, all indications suggest that the US in interested primarily in diverting Pakistan’s attention to the Northern borders. Why should a non-stakeholder be invited to the table?

I know you do not respond often to these posts; but I’d like to have your thoughts on these issues, Myra. Besides the fact that you are sirring the pot to make for good discussions, it would help if we knew your thinking as to what thing like, not just as they currently are.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

The UN resolution is redundant because of issues laid out by Vijay in his response above. Any one asking India to implement UN resolution should read little more history and get a better perspective of this region.

Also, to ask India to solve Kashmir issue after Terror attack is like asking India to negotiate with terrorists. This will provide enough signal to Islamic terrorist that use of terror is the right answer to solve Kashmir and other issue. It is so irresponsible and niave for Myra to suggest that.

Posted by gopal | Report as abusive

“Based on her past records, under different leadership, whether, elected or self imposed, Pakistan’s acts can be termed as negative, notorious, harmful, spear-heading anti Indian tirade and like spreading hatred in the name of religion and in disguise of supporting the “cause of Kashmir”. Above all, using and exporting nuclear technology for evil purposes and diversion of U.S. funds (to fight Soviet invasion in past and now again U.S. funds to fight Al Keadha terrorists) for use against India clearly establish that Pakistan does not believe in peaceful coexistence with India. Pakistan till recently was encouraging drug paddlers and counterfeiting foreign currencies by notorious elements involed in terrorist activities. All above facts are just sufficient for U.N. Security council do “de-legitimize” Pakistan Govt’s claim for Kashmir.

There cannot be greater punishment to her, as this will check and mate their entire claim to support and spread terrorist activities against India. Then the UN body can fix Pakistan Govt. and its notorious agencies like ISI.

World can be safe once U.N initiated this move , expanded to other rogue States/ Organizations such as Al. keadha and their new allies, Somalian / African warlords.

It is high time the new U.S. led by Obama involves UN body as the legitimate body to uproot all terror elements. Special fund shall be created and managed by UN body shared by all member countries. Armed forces of member countries are assigned to fight terror under UN flag.

Rouge countries should face ‘de-recognition’ by U.N. body as the most stringent act, which will make them defenseless.”

Thank you,

I beleive that ‘Gandian way ahimsa method will be more effective. My message may seem to be impractical and very difficult to get accomplished.

Drops make ocean. Human will is always the most powerful ‘Sakthi’ on this earth. Let’s proove we have the necessary WILL.

Posted by Seshagopalan.R | Report as abusive

I totally agree with Vijai. Terrorism is a world wide problem, and is NOT accepted in any society in today’s world. Any organization which favours or practices terrorism should be banned – dosent matter in which part of the world it originates.

The Kashmir issue is totally irrelevant here, and it’s irresponsible for people to bring it up. That’s between the two countries and the treaties/ history they have as to how they want to resolve it.

If Pakistan or UN or anyone links the terrorist attacks in Mumbai and Kashmir, the terrorists have won in their cause, and terrorism will continue….

Posted by TG | Report as abusive

India will say and do anything to take away the Kashmiri people’s right to self-determintaion, shameless Indians should rest assured; history shows that such tyranny is short lived.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

kashmir is integral part of india,who is Mr.ALI to suggest india ,how’s india deal to kasmir and kashmiri,before giving such suggetion to india .he should must know self situation.there is no law and order in pakistan and there people living in desatisfaction.no progress,no law,thats why pakistani and pakistan always tried to make any news headline whether it’s good or bad to compare with india.
nothing else.

Posted by Raj | Report as abusive

Vijai, thanks for your very detailed response. I don’t see my role as expressing my own opinions on this blog, but rather to ask questions and find interesting links that contribute to the debate, and make room for people like yourself to flesh it out. (This is perhaps why you find I don’t respond often enough to comments.)

However, here are a few points in response to yours and the other comments above.

First, very few people who talk about the 1948 Resolutions actually read them, which is why I’d recommend to anyone who has not already done so to go through the link and see what it says.

Secondly, when discussing Kashmir a distinction has to be made between the Kashmir Valley and the whole of the former kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir, which as you know includes the strategically important Northern Areas and Ladakh, as well as Jammu and what Pakistan calls Azad Kashmir. The label “Kashmir” tends to get used both for the Valley and for the whole of the former kingdom, and that’s something I try to avoid in my own writing as it tends to muddy the waters.

Thirdly, most Indian and Pakistani analysts will say that if you study the history of India and Pakistan, you can see that the problems between the two countries are not just about Kashmir. But nor would anyone pretend that divided J&K does not fuel tensions. U.S. President-elect Barack Obama said (before the Mumbai attacks) that India and Pakistan should be encouraged to make peace over Kashmir, so whoever suggested it was naive and irresponsible of me to raise it should perhaps take that up with the most powerful man in the world rather than me?

Finally, there are two schools of thought about how important history is to resolving tensions between India and Pakistan. One is that the two countries will never make peace until they agree on their history; the other is that they will never agree on what happened back in 1947 and 1948 and should agree to differ and move on. For those who want to focus on history, it would be worth looking at the pre-partition history of the Kashmir Valley, under Afghan, Sikh and Dogra rule (although that is probably a subject best kept to a separate post).

Ali,
In your comment above, when you talk about the Kashmiris right to self-determination, can you specify what you mean? Are you talking about a plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley?

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive

Myra,

I am indeed referring to a plebiscite as described in many UN resolutions including resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948 and the resolution of 5th January 1949, which said ‘The question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite. This was also promised by Jawaharlal Nehru, though I don’t read too much into promises made by Indian politicians.

Some will say a third option of complete independance should be included but any realist will point out that this simply isn’t a practical solution, however I have faith in the decision of the long suffering people of kashmir and would have no reservations in including that choice if it was my decision.

I also agree the differences between the people of Pakistan and India are historically and fundamentally deep-rooted and resolving this will not change that however it would be naive to think kashmir isn’t a core issue. I do strongly believe that solving this issue will without any doubt reduce tensions and give the two countries a good reason to look away and offer some form of closure or atleast initiate a process which can allow these relatively poor countries to use their limited resources to further improving the lives of ordianry citizens.

However I do not see the weak minded government of India allowing such a thing to happen as they have a long standing belief that it would strengthen the numerous other freedom struggles/insurgencies in India and lead to a segmentation of the country, open the flood gates so as to speak. The self-described Indian intellectuals on the other hand seem to believe without kashmir the very notion of a secular India would be meaningless but in reality most myths are meaningless.

I find it appalling that a country which so actively discriminates against it’s own people, treats human beings like animals based merely on their cast and holds entire states by aggression has the audacity to call itself the largest democracy in the world; worse yet the world community stands by and allows it; even the word condone would not be far fetched and probably justifiable.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Ali
‘Indians should rest assured; history shows that such tyranny is short lived.’
–You are absolutely right..only our perceptions of the tyrant differ..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Ali, I don’t think India is a perfect example of a democracy, neither is the US or England for that matter. India has problems and big ones but it is still a pluralistic society and an open one too. The Army excesses and the horrors of Gujarat are issues we as citizens are still criticising and asking answers for. But we are not spreading terror to other parts of the world. Please don’t tell me that there are no problems between a largely one religion country like Pakistan, between the Mohajirs and the Punjabis and the Pashtuns and the Tribals. Is Pakistan really worried about the people of Kashmir or about grabbing the place out of greed. Are all these militant outfits really concerned about the treatment of Muslims in different parts of the world and in India? If that was the case they would not be killing people arbitrarily and maligning the name of Islam and of the honest Muslim. I really don’t deny that India is not to blame for the Kashmir issue, by all means it must come clean on history and on a plebiscite in Kashmir. All said and done the real concern should be the people of Kashmir and not the greed of the two governments. Pakistan is unable right now to control its own territory and keep it free of extremists, how does it plan to deal with Kashmir.

Posted by akant | Report as abusive

Ali-

In discussions like this, debaters tend to focus on social ills like the CAste system- this may be relevant if you wished India well and desired social reform. Please do not bring it up in a discussion on Kashmir. I’m a Christian who feels strongly about problems in India as to the social ills which both minorities and the so-called lower castes work. Over the years the government, the bureaucracy and the law have tried to create equal opportunities for all and criminalize discrimation based on caste. As all such experiences in other countries prove, it takes more than these efforts to change people. I also see a clear improvement in attitudes towards caste in the past 25-30 years. The conflagrations based on faith that you see on the streets, I strongly believe, are no accident- they are surely organized and executed by powerful vested interests- no mass movements like these could be spontaneous. These vested interests could be many- faith groups, political bodies, foreign terrorists, local criminals and others. Have you actually seen a classless/casteless society? Can you truly say that the Islamic societies are actually completely fair and just toward non-Muslims, other ethnicities, women, Jewish people, Hindus, et al? And isn’t there some form of discrimination against the poor and dispossessed in these countries as well? You may claim that Islam itself doesn’t sanction this, but society doesn’t always work according to religious scriptures.

India as a country has not institutionalized casteism. Modren Hindus arguably understand casteism to have been a distortion of whatever its original intent may have been and proof of this is in the law of the land which punishes casteism.

The people of the Jammu and Kashmir state have been subjected to no more such social evils than the rest of India; and in fact they have had a far more elevated status than the other states. The government has poured money into this state which has been wrecked by violence, and not all by the Indian security forces. What makes these people take to violence when the government only talks to those secessionists who are willing to engage in diplomatic talks? Do they seriously feel that they can humiliate India into submission? Don’t they understand the Asian psyche that detests such humiliation and would rather fight to the end? Or could it be because some of these terror attacks are created by Pakistan and other countries which consider the presence of J&K in the Indian union as an insult to current Islamic countries’ notions of what should be a pan-Islamic region?

You mention that you do not believe that “the weak minded government of India allowing such a thing to happen as they have a long standing belief that it would strengthen the numerous other freedom struggles/insurgencies in India and lead to a segmentation of the country, open the flood gates…” If you can understand this, why are you unable to sympathize with this fact? Surely you cannot give a blanket carte blanche to these increasingly violent struggles which have traces to Maoist elements, many of them with international connections in Nepal, China, Myanmar and Bangladesh? If and when J&K secessionists can sit down like gentlemen at a table and engage India and Pakistan in meaningful conversation and be prepared for the long haul in which diplomacy, confidence building measures and goodwill are exercised to create a solution, I think India will be willing to ensure such a platform for other such peacable movements as well. Currently these movements are indubitably strengthened and motivated by foriegn governments who wish to bleed India- and not sympathizing with this situation is the hallmark of a warmonger and not a peacemaker. This is why I have been skeptical of the moral high ground being claimed by any secessionist in India- because their roots and branches run deep and wide into more violent terrorist methods and ideology.

There are reasons why India cannot be pressurized into considering Kashmir as THE core issue. It is certainly the state for which the terrorists are fighting. But let’s give that idea more circumference. What does the “Kashmir issue” mean? It means the debate on Plebiscite vs. Simla accord; the feasibility of a plebiscite in the whole region of J&K that is disputed among India, China and Pakistan, besides those in the state who want independence from all three; it means a clear understanding of who a Kashmiri resident is, especially in Pakistani-administered Kashmir and in the case of India, who the dispossessed Kashmiri Hindus are; what methods are now available to bring about the process of dialogue- whether they be a long-term framework for negotiations with the right kind of people in Kashmir, Pakistan, etc. Even the so-called Kashmir issue relates to many connected issues, not least among them is Pakistan’s clear and present support for terrorism in India, despite the political noises that regret and express shock in individual terrorist incidents.

Why is it that Pakistani demands of a plebiscite or other solutions want it all done “here and now”, without compromise or methods such as a long term involvement in India’s elections? Why are they so keen to also involve terror groups in the discussions while India has shown enough flexibility to talk to the Hurriyat in which groups that had been once violent but now have renounced violence are included? Why is Pakistan so keen to bleed India rather than engage with India? Is this the attribute of a civilized nation- or should I say it, a civilized ideology?

Pakistan’s identity as an Islamic nation is contradicted by the presence of Muslims in India, and I’m sure that the country would like to see India as a hotbed of secessionist tensions, and therefore this would mean that a pluralistic democracy like the US isn’t possible in Asia. India seeks to disprove this, andby and large from 1947 until the late 80s India had been successful at this with a few minor blips like Punjab. The Kashmir issue and the religion-based prejudice that have arisen since have seriously threatened that status, and clearly Pakistan has fanned the flames. What does this say about Pakistan? The legilative government suddenly disowns these tactics due to US pressure, and the executive continues to pursue its own agenda. Is this the country with whom India needs to talk?

At the very least I hope you appreciate the challenges that India faces and cuts down on the hoteheadeed talk about freedom struggles. If you remember, even during a genuine freedom struggle such as India’s struggle for independence from Britain, it took over 60 years of the formation of the Congress and peaceful, confidence building measures to achieve independence.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

It is well clear after coming across all about the valuable references and evidental documents of both history and diplomacy,that ” Pakistan always chronically tries to hedge their cultivation of militants widely in their soil to provoke them to bring devastation for India at any cost in terms of retaliation for Kasmir agony”

Militants, generated from Pakistan,should not be treated in this way,by looking through a small window at least.If we do so,the the world will go to hell.

Myra: I do not think that your comments in this post were naive or irresponsible. Nor were Mr. Obama’s. But as CS Lewsi once observed in his comments on the American school system which he did not mention as such explicitly, when you are a non-stakeholder, making such patronizing comments about someone else’s country is both bad tactics and bad manners. I won’t take it that far, but it will rankle in the minds of Indians, and this doesn’t make for good practice in ensuring such a dialogue between India and Pakistan.

Secondly, about the two schools of thought you talked about- the first subscribing to righting historical wrongs and the second just moving on. I do not know where mine fits in, but you must have already got it from my earlier comments. After India achieved independence from Britain, we have had good relations with the UK. This is not the case with Zimbabwe, where they are asking for reparations and a long-simmering sense of injustice has perpetrated simply another unjust government but one which claims moral superiority because the British did some unjust things. Zimbabwe may not have bled Brtain like the terrorists are doing to India, but they did not have the privilege of going through such a peaceful, exeplary movement like India’s freedom struggle. Argentina tried to wrest the Falklands from the UK by force and had to pay the price. Northern Ireland terrorists tried to wrest itself away from the UK, and could not succeed, but the government was willing to incude Sinn Fein in the elections and engage in discussions with them on their own terms, whcih were peaceful and constructive. But the the so-called real IRA are keen to muddy the waters again. Palestine has tried to bleed Israel for decades, to no avail. Israel was willing to talk to Arafat when he renounced terror tactics, but the Hamas have muddied the waters and it is still status quo. History has shown us the right way and the wrong way. Whatever you may include in your conversation, the methods matter. That’s where India has problems with Pakistan. In a negotiation, you need to know what the other party would like to have and create solutions which are acceptable. The Harvard negotiation project clearly affirms this. It is unfortunate that the terrorists as well as the Pakistani government are deaf to this.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

Ali,
‘Indians should rest assured; history shows that such tyranny is short lived.’

Why should we learn history?. We learn history to know about what mistakes our ancestors made and what should future generation do so that it does not repeat again. India was under foreign rule from 1192 till 1947 and it’s a big shame.In the past the country was not unified and each smaller kingdoms had rivalries with one another and helped external aggressors conquering local enemies and ultimately became victim themselves. You can’t find a greater example than of Jaichand who helped Mohammad Ghori to defeat Prithviraj Chauhan in second battle of Tarn Tarain in 1192 which led to establishment of Islamic rule in India. You can break one stick easily but can’t break a bunch of it, won’t you?. There may be rivalries among Indian states but when it comes to nation India is one and Paksitan can’t break it at the moment. There are no independence movements in India at the moment except in Kashmir & few north eastern states.

In 1948 Nehru made a mistake that he referred this Kashmir issue to the UN. At that time Indian army had the capacity to expel the Pakistani army and tribesman who had occupied northern part of the Kashmir. Instead he listened to Lord Mountbatten and took it to the UN and hence the issue is still alive with Kashmir divided between India, Pakistan and China.

Posted by Sudhir | Report as abusive

Myra

Reaffirming the inherent right of ‘individual’ or collective self-defence as
recognized by the Charter of the United Nations as reiterated in resolution 1368
(2001),

resolution 1368
(2001),
“3. Calls on all States to work together urgently to bring to justice the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these terrorist attacks and stresses that those responsible for aiding, supporting or harbouring the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these acts will be held accountable;

India has simply invoked an existing Resolution already acted upon by the NATO force & since the UNSC has accepted India’s contention to be valid & instructed Pakistan, it paves the way for India to exercise it’s ‘inherent right of ‘individual’ (or collective) self-defence as recognized by the Charter of the United Nations’(1373) against ‘those responsible for aiding, supporting or harbouring the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these acts will be held accountable;’ (1368).(smart move)
— the Kashmir issue is irrelevant here, until someone wishes to humour the desperate face-saving by the Pakistanis with the usual, umpteenth time, Kashmir yelp at the UN …
‘Until relatively recently, Pakistan insisted that India make good its pledge to hold a plebiscite,’
‘Pakistan must withdraw fighters first from its side of Jammu and Kashmir, followed by a progressive withdrawal of Indian troops, to allow a plebiscite to take place.’
–Pakistan must make good of it’s pledge in the UN (1948) of withdrawing it’s troops first, then sincerely convince India that it earnestly wishes to ‘genuinely’ resolve all, I repeat ALL, their disputes bilaterally…
‘independence — at least as far as the Resolution goes — was not an option.’
–It is, provided both the countries agree upon, well try endorsing Pakistan on this..

N. Ram—A Journalist with communist leanings …

‘…growing strategic partnership between India and Russia?’

–They forgot to mention the Imperial deal…good to see the Russian focusing to re-strengthen their ties with sincere, old, tried & tested friends after their ‘Georgian’ experience & sudden realization of their one-sided economic dependency, let’s give them space, after all they are a young democracy..

‘U.S. President-elect Barack Obama…’

–Let him first occupy the ‘Hot seat’…taste real power & ‘responsibility’ & it’s subsequent consequences…then only shall his words carry weight…until then, no great shakes …
‘pre-partition history of the Kashmir Valley’

–Do start with Sage Kashyap…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Before India can run for help to the UN, India must follow the UN resolutions on Kashmir and withdraw its forces from Kashmir and give them the right of self determination. Same goes for Pakistan, in first place Pakistan is not occupying the part of Kashmir by force, the Kashmiris are happy to live with Pakistan. If ever an independent referendum takes place, I am sure Kashmiris will opt for either Pakistan or let Kashmir remain an autonomous region, no Kashmiri will ever be willing to stay with India. Not after hundereds of thousands are martyred, homes destroyed, women raped, children brutally murdured and lives devestated. India is the world’s largest democracy liable for gross human rights violations. I wonder why China’s treatment of Tibet is always in the limelight while Indian human rights abuses in Kashmir go unnoticed.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I l tell you brother Umair why!

India leaders bow down to the West always like they are their servant mnd you thats what is in their blood now surely they are use to it by now after the muslims have rules them for so long.

India very clever at getting world on their side with their dilectory tactics.

India does not only supress the kashmiris they also sponsor terrorism in Pakistan, Sri lanka and many other states within India.

Its k for the states like USA. ISRAEL, INDIA to crush peopes rite as long it is not individual based and it is state polict to the world that is fine.

India think is the capital for HIV for the world. Hindu relgions which discriminates their own followers. The only reason they have given Muslim presidenct and sikh a prime minister position to thorugh a illusion at world.

But behind the scnes its the same india that went into golden temple and mudered sikhs of all ages…same India which its soldiers rape kashmiri women veryday, muder inncocent kashmiri males fearing hwen they grow up they will shove a big DANDA up their arse…

You know do what you like, if you had given kashmiris a margin of hope we might have been party to a settlemnt.

But u understand one language– AL JIHAD AL JIAHD!!!!

Posted by aLI786 | Report as abusive

PAKISTAN ZONDAAA BAAADDDD!!!!

Posted by ALI786 | Report as abusive

Where was the International community when the Babri Mosque was destroyed by hindu terrorists?

Where was the world community when inncocent muslims citizen of india were mascared, mudered, homes burnt and raped by hindu terrorists in Gujrat?

Where was the decent people of India or the world when the samjuta train was burnt and innocent were burnt alive. thats how you treat your guests and as now the blame finger was pointed at Pakistan.

Where is the world and decent people of India when every day your smelly solders are burning out homes, murdering inncocent, forcing people to vote no media is allowed in the valley I wonder why surely something to hide.

Where is the World when christian are beinf raped, murdered and their churches destroyed…

If you call this a mother of all democracies then —
SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!!!!

Posted by Majid786 | Report as abusive

Myra,

when I asked you to comment on our remarks, I was hoping for some intelligent give and take of information. I’m sorely disappointed that after so much detail that some of us went into, our Pakistani friends have not truly engaged us in conversation, but indulged in simply rhetoric. One would think from viewing their responses that their country is an oasis of tranquility.

I wish these online forums would attract more intellligence responses. Truth to tell, this is pretty indicative of Pakistani responses in general, even at higher levels where little of substance is actually discussed, but a lot of strawmen arguments and ad hominen attacks are du rigeur. You start the conversation about Kashmir, you get in response the Babri Kasjid, criminal acts against Christians, Sikhs and Muslims, the caste system, and what not. I’m signing off from here. Happy trails.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

Majid
The destruction of the Babri Masjid was a tragic and shameful incident and is condemned in India. Why should you worry about the Muslims of Gujarat, are they Pakistani citizens? I am not saying that what happened was right but what happened was the same when people kill each other in Karachi or the US or anywhere in the world. Don’t talk as if you are the custodian of all Muslims in this world. The maximum strength of media is parked in Srinagar, so don’t say that media is not allowed there. Samjhauta is an independent investigation in which we are trying right wing Hindu extremists and not closing up the matter… the riot cases are being faught by Indians..I have enough Muslim friends in India and also in Pakistan, and a lot of them really think that Muslims are better off in India despite being a minority..Do you have even 5 people from the minority community in Pakistan that are national heroes, I can name hundreds in India..The chief of Mumbai Police is a Muslim, India has had two Muslim cricket captains and numerous players, most of our extremely famous and most loved Bollywood stars are Muslims, the last president was a Muslim…India made its biggest mistake by rigging the 1987 elections in Kashmir and Pakistan used the extreme frustration and discontent of the Kashmiri people by arming them and fomenting violence, that was not an act that has helped Muslims in India…Did your terrorists bother about checking before they killed 40 innocent Muslims in Mumbai…are you helping them by doing all this or making things more difficult for them? Check for news and you’ll see that decent people were here and raising their voice against all atrocities…60 innocent people died in the Delhi blasts and two suspected Muslim terrorists were killed in an encounter in Delhi, if you want to check just see for yourself how much noise was created mostly by liberal Hindus not for the blast victims but for the two Muslim boys because we wanted police to tell us with certainty, this was despite the fact that the top police cop was also killed in the encounter…these guy might have been terrorists and if the police chief was killed and another injured someone must have fired from the other side but still thousands of questions were asked, are you asking that many questions from your own government or are you just asking questions from India? There are many people who are challenging the authorities here on issues of Gujarat, Kashmir and Kandhamal, is anyone in Pakistan asking why LeT and their likes are allowed to roam freely? Can you give me instances where Indians have caused blasts in Karachi and Lahore? And if they have we won’t resist in handing them over as our PM has a say unlike your government and your citizens that are just show ponnies in front of your Army. I know you can’t grow a brain but open it a bit at least…

Posted by akant | Report as abusive

Myra,
You should think in a broader way before concluding that kashmir is root cause behind recent mumbai attack.If this is the case what NATO is doing on Pak-afgan border?is there kashmir behind 9/11 attack ?Is there kasmir behind attack in london?
Anyone can say who were behind there coward terror attack on innocent people.Its Pakistan and their cursed land full of Muslim terrorists are main root cause behind all terror attcks on india or other parts of world.
Its not a time to discuss on the same issue again and again where the terrorists are coming from or who are they.It has been proved that pakistan is a terrorists country and recent ban on Jamat-ul-dawa is a clear messege to Pakistan that world has recognized them as a terrorists state and if they don’t act fast they will disappear fast.India is determined to eliminate these muslim terrorists and their homeland.Its the time to see how much drama pakistani puppet govt. plays before international forces led by india invade pakistan to establish peace in the world.

Posted by Kumar | Report as abusive

Response to miss AKANT lol

I respect your opnion and little opness in understanding others views too. Now in regard to the point you have raised read the answers carefully!

Firstly as being a proud Muslim despite what all you indians say about Muslims is totaly wrong as you get bad and good in all groups and we have our share of bad too.

When a Muslim is heart anywhere in the world or suffers we are like one body. When any part of your body is hurt whole body feels it and thats how a true Muslim feels and how he responses to that it is individul choice. Its another story if we agree with that r not but any act of terrorism on any soul is condemable.

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

1:- As our beloved prophet Muhammed P.B.U.H said, Muslim ummah is like one body and if any part of the body is hurt we will feel it. Thats a fact if u r a Muslim u will feel that way even though u r sitting UK r any corner with all the luxries of life.

2:- In reagrds to media in Kashmir, I dont think so, odd few journalist might be there under the watchful eye of the indian milatry but not how you describe it and infact I think you are refering to “STARNEWS” van parked near dal lake beaming out properganda against innocent kashmiris and Pakistan.

3:- In reagrds to Indian Muslims, you say they are better off in India. I dont think so i l tell you why u named few muslims in high positions out of how many millions??? Anyway thats is just to show that you are secular but reality is ask the Muslim person in Gujrat does he feel safe if there are any left in the hell hole. Dont ask the the people who living inluxry and in regards to the khans in the movies most of them have muslim name thats all the rest is worser then an hindu. If muslim felt so safe in India surely Jinnah a barrister wouldnt have made a new homeland for the Muslims. U knwo why he was part of the congress but herequested to have muslims rights but was not satisfied. Most of your leaders say one thing do another as any other politician in world. Why did the British agree to jinnah policy if they thought India was secular n has place for evryone? plz answer!!!

4:- Most important point, the Pakistan government has asked for evidence, to this date no evidence has been handed over!!! Heard the saying “innocent till proven guilty” but indian mentality is “Guilty until proven innocent”.

Message to all Indians please grow up and dont be spoon fed by “STARNEWS”…I arrrest my case!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

AKANT u said u are getting off the forum — go who cares there are plenty of indian fools to reply so u are allowed to go back to work in your call centre..

surely u got targets to meet lol

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

Ali786,
You must be ashamed of being a muslim if u r not an insane.Instead of thinking about Kashmir and Indian muslim better you think about saving the Hell on earth(pakistan).Its time to act dear otherwise we gonna destroy your hell and their monsters to bring ultimate peace in this beautiful palnet.
Its time to punish these muslim terrorists and their caretakers.

Posted by Kumar | Report as abusive

Everyone, I’m with Vijai here. This blog is for “intelligent give and take of information”. It’s not about descending into rhetoric.

The original point of the post was about United Nations involvement now, and the UN Resolutions on Kashmir in 1948. So please stick to the subject, and read the post before you leap to judgment and post a comment.

Oh and as a point of fact on the foreign media. Yes you can travel around the Kashmir Valley without being under the supervision of the Indian military.

And you can also go to Pakistan and be greeted with kindness and hospitality, and meet lots of people who are trying to earn their livings and bring up their families just like the rest of us, in exactly the same way that this happens in India.

Using this blog to hurl insults does not advance the debate and they do not belong here. In future, I am going to delete comments which do not address the post directly.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive

Ali, again you are just repeating the same argument. Kashmir does not have an odd journalist here and there but its full of journalists. Because of it being an international story, most western papers also have their people there. As far as Jinnah is concerned, he was just power hungry just as Nehru was, Jinnah wanted to be the PM and when that did not happen he thought it better to go along with the two nation theory and Nehru was equally at fault. I respect the feelings you have for all Muslims but the non-Muslim world is not there to be bombed and killed just because you think they are kafirs. By all means raise your voice for the Muslims but don’t justify killing all non-Muslims of this world.

Posted by akant | Report as abusive

When Pakistan and India used to be one country why are select people now at loggerheads all the time ? I mean come on, we watch the same Bollywood movies, eat the same samosas, wera the same bright,eye cathing clothes, speak the same or similar languages and most of all we all look the same. I am of Pakistani origin and have Indian friends in the UK and Europe. Frequently when one flies with an Arab airline from Pakistan to the UK via a Middle Eastern hub there are often many Indian canin crew on these flights and never have any of them made me feel inferior and they treat Pakistani passengers with high respect. When the shoe is on the other foot I note it is usually Pakistanis who have problems with other religions/colours/castes etc.

Posted by Imran | Report as abusive

I knew there will be few indians fools around and gues what Mr Kumar comes along. Mr Kumar have you heard the saying “Jo garjatay hay wo barsatay nahi” that sums up all you indians. All talk and talk n talk n talk n boring talk…But u talk and and we walk lol.

nway kumar read few more books and educate urself u bollywood n starnews da BETA.

Posted by aLI786 | Report as abusive

There is an old saying” jab kutte ki maut aati hai to sahar ki taraf bhagta hai”.This is what happening with muslim terrorists and their caretakers.Their dream to expand their hell towards india will be crushed again and again.If they don’t learn a lesson even now then their fate would bring them to india to be killed like pigs (as in mumbai).
Ali there is huge world outside madrasas.If u haven’t met real people yet its not your fault,we can understand what they might have taught you in Madrasas.

Posted by kumar | Report as abusive

It’s quite clear that nothing has ever been taught to Ali, either in schools or in Madrasas. He does not have a single argument or a single thought process that he can explain in a clear and understandble manner. All in all, he is enjoying the fact that 10 people caused so much damage in Mumbai and all India is doing is just talking. He is proud of the fighting abilities of an AK-47-armed and trained terrorist against unarmed and unprepared civilians. That is his concept of bravery. He is asking others to read while it is pretty certain from his language that he is a Class IV dropout like Ajmal. I usually don’t comment on people but this guy really deserves disdain.

Posted by akant | Report as abusive

Akant aur Kumar, teri aur sab hindistani ko thi ajaml na maar….but i agree its wrong!

What is the cause of terrorism? To find a solution you have to understand the problem and when I speak about the problem some indian fool will coment this has nothing to do with it. Instead of having an open mind you or most indians are brainwashed by their STAR news.

I was appaled how the indian media was pumping out anti Pakistan properganda surely that doesnt help. Neither does the action of few people going on rampage I understand how indians would feel.

But on the same coin other side. I bet you, when you lot heared the Marriot got bombed most Indians were happy to see Pakistan turning into Iraq. If a indian fool comments that he was not he is LYING. The reason beinf every hindi hates Pakistan can not see it prosper so you and your filthy RAW agents help organise these terrorist activity all over Pakistan as well as other neighouring countries.

Truth hurts, I bet you it will solve the Kashmir problem, stop messing in Afghansiatn with you over 20 counslates surely the only purpose they can have is to back the puppet regime of Hamid Karzai and fuel anti Pakistan properganda IN Afghanistan.

There will be no camps in Pakistan, Kashmir or elesewhere. Give people hope, solve their problems to their wishes. There will be no more terrorists anyway who you call terrorist we call FREEDOM FIGHTER.

1 Freedom Fighter = 10 Indian Soldeirs

Tested formula!

But I still disagree anyone killing any innocent anywhere!

Posted by ali786 | Report as abusive

As I know, the UN resolutions are only meant for implementing the agenda of Imperialist states.Everyone knows that the bone of contention between India and Pakistan is Kashmir and now it has been almost 60 years that the Kashmir conflict is waiting for plebiscite mandated by UN but actaully could not take place due to unethical and aggressive attitude of India.One can feel the pain of the Kashmiri people in Indian held Kashmir these days,almost 92000 of them already been killed by Indian brutatilities.For how long India can occupy Kashmir with its forces?I know and I have seen so many of the Kashmiris killed by Indian shelling alongside the Line of Control.I have seen the tragedy when 24 members of a family were slaughtered by Indian BSF commandos at night.The sacrificies of the people of Jammu and Kashmir will never go waste.Now India has asked UN to impose ban on Pakistani Organisations and it is expected that India also follow the resolutions of UNO regarding Jammu and Kashmir,if India refuses to do so, I think there will be many new organisations with different names having the common goal to target India and Pakistan and get their desired results meaning a nuclear war.Good luck and best wishes for both India and Pakistan

Posted by Zahoor | Report as abusive

Myra
I think that most people here are well educated and it is sad to see the WAR by words.The history of the past bombings and incidents taking place in India specifically shows that all the occassions match so politicla benefits for politicians in India,I have many Indians as my colleagues and all of us believe that the real forces behind the scenes are ploticians taking political benefits in elections.I have a few questions to my Indian friends in this forum, anyone can answer and I’ll wellcome their comments.
1-If Indian Navy can take action against Somali pirates in Gulf of Eden and destroy a ship (unfortunately it was known that the ship didn’t belong to pirates rather it was a commercial ship belonging to Thailand)how come The Navy failed to tarce the boats/ship used by terrorist in Indian waters?
2-Who are the people in Indian security agencies who allowed the terrorist to move freely in Mumbai and get the know how of the places they attacked?
3-How did the terrorists got inside Hotels and other localities with ammunitions and arms?
4- Who has fired at Himant Karkare from back side and killed him (as reported only the security forces were at his back)?
5-Why India is not agreeing to have a joint investigation including Pakistan to find the route cause of the incident?
6-Will Indians hand over to Pakistan the mastermind of attacks on Muslims,Colonel Prohat,Major Kulkarni and others,who killed many Muslims of both countries? Remember that India at the time of those attacks blamed Pakistan behind the attacks,as usual.
I suggest that the common people of Pakistan and India want peace and hormoney but some politicians and WORLD PLAYERS need the situation to be tense just to keep their politics alive.
And many people in Pakistan know that there are solid proofs of Indian involvements in troubled Tribal areas and Balouchistan,should both Nuclear armed countries start war?
The people of both countries need to realize that war is no solution,just sit together, mark the issues which are cause of tension,the most important,Kashmir and think for the betterment of 1.3Billion innocent people.Good luck India and Pakistan

Posted by Zahoor | Report as abusive

Myra,

History is the prologue to the present, however, in Kashmir, it is less relevant in solving the problem.

Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) will be resolved between India, Pakistan and the residents of J&K. Period! Jammu & Kashmir has a rich medley of communities and religions. Each community has its own identity and their political aspirations rarely converge. On the Indian side there are Gujjars, Bakkarwals, Kashmiri Pandits, Dogras and Buddhists. On the Pakistan side, there are Balti, Shina, Khowar, Burushashki, Wakhi, and Pahari speaking people; as well as Ismaili, Sunni, Shia, and Nur Bakshi sects of Islam.

For lasting peace, we have to look at the political aspirations of all communities living in Indian Occupied Kashmir, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, Northern Areas and Aksai Chin.

Given the terrorist infiltration and political meddling there is no quick solution in Kashmir. And, no Barack Obama, with his skill and charm, will be able to fix in his one presidential term.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Zahoor,

Let me try to answer your questions:
1-If Indian Navy can …I believe Indian ship responded to a SOS message but I could be wrong, in any case conditions were certainly not same.
2-Who are the people…No body allowed them but certainly thats lack of security.
3-How did the terrorists …Booked room with fake IDs and in hotels nobody checks bags of guests.
4- Who has fired at ….Where did you see that Himant Karkare was shot from back side?
5-Why India is not agreeing…Its because there is no trust. Looking at the history its more destructing than productive to include Pak’s investigating agencies in case involving terrorists from Pak’s soil.
6-Will Indians hand over….No, because location of the incident is in India so the case falls in juridiction of India.

Posted by ma | Report as abusive

Ma
First I found that you tried to answer my questions but you did not answer completely.The issue is that if you think good for yourself you have to think good for others at least, being good human beings.
The questions I raised are at the minds of many people, both Indian and Pakistanis and everyone has his mind and use it to analyze the situation.
If you say that the guests are allowed to enter the hotels without security checking and clearance, I consider it as a joke of the day.This means there are black sheeps in India also who did not do their duties well.As Pakistan has been saying again and again,just to have a joint investigation but India is not agreeing for this? Ok just allow the other countries like UK,USA, the India’s friends to question one terrorist captured alive.I believe Mumbai attacks is a game plan of BIG PLAYERS and common people will keep guessing the ACTUAL REASON behind.
You need to accept that there are not only Muslims who are terrorists,they are Hindus also, who killed Gandhi?
Who was behind Babri Mosque incident?and the gang exposed by Karkare?
Just think we need to realise the ground realities also.
Good luck and best wishes

Posted by Zahoor | Report as abusive

I dont understand y Pakistan is not admitting dat d lone alive terrorist Ajmal is from Pakistan….juss because it will expose Pakistan & Pakistani citizens (people of ajmal’s village who knew dat he ws goin on mission, thereby supporting him) in front of International Threats. Even former pak PM commented live on world Media dat Ajmal was from Pak & dat his house & village is cordoned off (surprisingly, he is saying d other way round now…took a nice U-turn). Zardari says Pak can even attack with nuclear weapons….did he forgets that India has more inventory of Nuclear weapons than Pak can ever produce

Posted by Suyu | Report as abusive

Dear suyu
the reason why Pakistan doesn’t accept Ajmal to be a Pakistani is that your government is not providing any evidence to back their claims. it is easy to blame someone for something but its easier to punish someone against whom you have evidence. if a person claims to be a Pakistani involved in the attacks then with the intelligence agencies of the two countries and the poverty level witnessed any one can claim to be a ‘ANYONE’ for money.
so my question would be that if you people have solid and concrete evidence of Pakistan’s invlovement then why is’nt it being presented to Pakistan or even the security council???? the longer the Indian government take to release any evidence the weaker their case will be.

Posted by HHC | Report as abusive

Zahoor,

I don’t understand one thing….why are you people bothered about what is happening in India…..Why can’t u losers leave us alone….Gandhiji was killed by a hindu terrorist, we have punished him….muslims killed in Gujrat….we are still punishing the people involved in this heinoeous crimes….Whatever is happening, is happennig in India why r u ppl so much bothered ….if any muslim or hindu’s are killed or tortured its a matter of our own country…they are all indians(both the criminals and the sufferes)…why is Pakistan and the people there are so much concerened….

for that matter of fact half of India doesn’t even knw wats gng in Balochistan…..how ur government is abusing the rights of the ppl…..

Maybe u can call it our lack of knowledge but the fact is that we are least bothered….
We dnt compare ourselves with a country that is failed as a democracy….where guns speak louder than voice….
We Indians are far ahead of u in terms of technology and mindset. We are looking forward to make this a great developed nation and a not a failed Islamic state like urs….

Anyways i can only have sympathy for u and the ppl out there in Pakistan….its not u…its the governance that has failed u…rather has let u down……my best wishes are with u…….

Posted by Neo-The One | Report as abusive

[...] durable peace in South Asia. Significantly, he said a peaceful solution must be found in line with U.N. resolutions passed in 1948 giving the people of the former kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir the right to vote on whether to join [...]