Brinkmanship in South Asia

December 14, 2008

Pakistan said two Indian Air Force planes violated Pakistani airspace on Saturday, one along the Line of Control in  Kashmir and the other near Lahore  in Pakistan proper. Pakistani officials said Pakistani jets on patrol chased the Indians away and that the Indian Air Force, upon being contacted later, told them it had happened accidentally.

  The Indian Air Force, though, has told the media that none of its planes had violated Pakistani airspace.  There has been no official response from the Indian government.

What is really going on here? Is it a case of nerves jangling, or perhaps the Pakistani establishment is  building up war hysteria against a foe they know all too well the country will unite against?
 
Or, on the flip side, the Pakistanis are right and the intrusions by the Indian jets did take place? Was New Delhi making an aggressive display, part of the “controlled escalation” that some people have talked about to force Pakistan to act for the Mumbai attacks?

[Indian Su-30 fighter jets.Reuters pic}]

These are dangerous times to be making “inadvertent” violations into each other’s territory.  You would  think if you were flying close to the Line of Control in Kashmir or near the international border in Punjab at this time of heightened tensions, you would be even more careful.

But two violations on the same day, both as some in the Pakistan press have pointed out near camps of  the Lashkar-e-Taiba and you begin to think this has to be taken seriously and not dismissed outright.

Stratfor said given the tensions between the two nuclear neighbors after the Mumbai attack, and the details of the intrusions, it is unlikely that these incidents were accidental.

Rather, it said, New Delhi was increasing pressure on Islamabad to take concrete action not just against militants, but more  importantly their sympathizers within the Pakistani military-intelligence establishment.

Pakistan has acted by banning the Jammat-ud-Dawah (JuD), a charity linked to the Lashkar-e-Taiba, which India accuses of masterminding the Mumbai attack, and arresting its leaders. But Delhi says Islamabad has banned groups in the past, only to ease the pressure on them later, and that, it says, is now unacceptable.

 [A view of a madrasa near Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir]

So are the foes on a steady escalation path? And can you really control this from start to finish? 

Pakistan is already chafing at the U.S. raids and missile attacks on its western border, the latest one only this week. Does it now face Indian pressure on its eastern flank?

46 comments

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The airspace “incursion” story is feeble attempt by the Pk jihadi terrorist state to divert attention. And who cares about diplomatic victory, brinkmanship etc? All India cares about the perpetrators should be brought to justice and their sponsors the Pak army/ ISI should be held accountable, and future attacks should be prevented. Thats all India is focussed on. Rest of the problems created by Pakistan is for the international community to deal with.

Pak jihadi terrorist state is turning to be “international migraine” as former secy of state Albright called it.

BERNARD LEVY, expert on terrorism has written about his already.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12282674 6064374589.html

Let’s Give Pakistan the Attention It Deserves
The Mumbai attack is the latest wake-up call.

HERE IS THE EXCERPT: QUOTE–Worse yet, the Lashkar-e-Taiba is, as I discovered while researching and reporting my book on Daniel Pearl, a group of which A.Q. Khan, the inventor of Pakistan’s atomic bomb, was a longtime friend. Mr. Khan, one may recall, spent a good 15 years trafficking in nuclear secrets with Lybia, North Korea, Iran and, perhaps, al Qaeda, before confessing his guilt in early 2004. Later pardoned by Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Mr. Khan remains perfectly free to travel within Pakistan, as he was just admitted this Monday, under the protection of the ISI, to the most elite hospital in Karachi.

No, this is not a dream — it is reality. Pakistan is home to a man both father of his country’s nuclear program and known sympathizer of an Islamist group whose latest demonstration has netted at least 188 dead and several hundred wounded.—END QUOTE.

I guess this incident is one of the many unfounded news emanating from Pakistan. The jury is still out on the credibility of such Pakistani hysteria including the hoax call incident with Mr Zardari. Wonder what is going to be next? Unicorns sighted walking in the streets of Islamabad?

Given the diplomatic success enjoyed by India, it is unlikely of her to send fighter planes for surgical strikes; at least for now. As a matter of fact, the government in Delhi has shown no interest to trigger war-like gestures because there is nothing to gain and lot to loose.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

There is little doubt the incident occurred. Pakistan stands to gain nothing from fabricating a story such as this. The worrying thing is that the incident took place.

The IAF is a thoroughly professional organisation. It is impossible that a senior officer would have authorised an incursion without higher direction, and equally impossible that it took place accidentally, given the expertise of IAF pilots.

If the intruding aircraft had been engaged by ground defences or opposing planes there could have been a most serious escalation.

So who ordered the airspace violation? And why?

Posted by Brian Cloughley | Report as abusive

Pakistan Air Force is a potent and well prepared combat group capable of dealing with modern challenges. No wonder Indian planes were forced to abandon their ‘mission’ whatever it was. Maybe they were on reconnaisance, but I can say with full confidence in any future conflict PAF will have superiority over the skies. InshAllah
Go Shaheens!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

How many seconds would it take for a fighter jet to travel 4Kms ?? and the news says pakistani jets chased the Indian jets !! yet again the news today that 3 NATO fighter jets entered Pakistani airspace !! but did nothing ??? the very fact the fighter planes were responed to retrite with 4Kms is a blatant lie..and all looks like pakistan is trying to divert attention from mumbai attacks and JuD ban.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

First of all UMAIR,

The Pak Air Force is no match for the Might of the Indian Military. The Pak Military would be flattened beyond recovery within 3 to 4 days. Pak would cease to be a functioning society. That is why Pak always maintains a nuclear threat against India. Even if Pak did exercise the nuclear option against India, India would still be a recoverable society, but Pak however would be not much more than a scratch on the earth, afterwards, so please be realistic here and don’t go bragging about the fictitious and self delusional prowess of the Pak Air Force, just please talk in real terms, and keep the conversation outside of the dreamworld.

India’s the U.S. and the rest of the World’s patience is wearing thin. If Pakistan can not clean or purge itself of Radical Jihadi Islamicists, its corrupt ISI, corrupt Military Leaders, Madrassas and culture of hate, the World will find a way to do it for them. On its present course, you better believe this, there will be “A Day of Reckoning” for Pakistan, if it does not clean itself up. This situation is not in the interest of the Pakistani citizens or anyone in the world.

The world wants Pakistan to be a productive, secular democracy like India. Pakistan is doomed to fail as an Islamic state because too many players are using this ideology of religion to further their own agendas.

It is best if the citizens take control of their country to build a lasting democracy that is SECULAR and make a choice to join the rest of the modern world and end its pathological hatred of India, the Jews and the rest of the Western world, without whose Food Handouts it cannot survive.

Just remember, hate cannot make a country survive. Perhaps hatred of the Hindus was enough to form Pakistan, but it is not enough to fuel its sustainability. Once the hate is gone, Pakistan will unravel.

The World, especially India is fed up and tired with these cat and mouse games with Pakistani trained terrorists. Sorry that Pakistan keeps getting blamed here, but Pakistan has no credibility right now, none whatso ever, all terrorism is focused to develop from Pakistan, remember that 40% of Guatanamo detainees are Pakistani.

Pakistan and you UMAIR can start by stopping the pathological lying and plausible denials for Pakistani ground being used for Terrorism. It is time for frank honesty, or there will be no path forward.

So, please do not fabricate elaborate conspiracy stories, we are not fools born yesterday. Standup and be honest about things, or regress to the “Dark Ages”.

Posted by Reason | Report as abusive

Om jay puri!!

Had thay incusion been more than 4km as you suggest which i dont know where you got the info from. For the sake of arguments even if it was, they were chased away. Next time they will be shor down as few of them were in Kargil…Gidar ki olad..sheen say panga acha nahi, katri bactha!!

Batch nikla salla!!!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

India is trying to mount extra pressure I agree with the Sanjeev. She knows Pakistan is already under pressure from International community and thinks little incursion in this time she will get away with.

But let me tell you PAF is one of the best in the world. They are lucky that they did not venture any deeper into Pak land had they, their fate would have been same as what hapened in kargil. Shot out from the sky surley that will only fuel the crisis I feel India should think long n hard before puting into action little adventures.

India should work with the newly elected Democratic Goverment of Pakistan and bring the people behind all terrorist acts not just Mumbai.

If India does not cooperate with Pakistan e.g. not provide any evidence there is only so much the new administration can do. I can only see another dictator in Pakistan then India problem will start.

Hope peace prevails above all.

Posted by John UK | Report as abusive

Sanjeev ji,
Congratulations on another objective post. Somehow it seems that war mongering has become a cottage industry in Subcontinent and these Dr Strangeloves will finally lead us to war. I really hope that this never happens.
To Brian Cloughley: Hi Brian, no visit to Pakistan planned? Regarding your comment I believe that even though the armies and air forces of both sides are highly professional this time they have started behaving quite independently of the civilian governments. As you know there is nothing new in it for Pakistan, given our long history of military rule, but in India this trend has been getting more and more clear. How else would you explain Gen JJ Singh’s press conference recommending the civilian government not to make ‘concessions’ to Pakistan. I am afraid that the govt in New Delhi is talking tough because it wants to appear in control of the situation.

I pray for the innocent victims of this heinous crime and
I hope to God that the war mongering from the Indian government does not escalate into an “inadvertent” all out war. Pakistan on the other side is bending backwards to appease India.
The price of war will be devastating both for India & Pakistan, considering the missile & other tech available to both sides. If the planes did intrude Pakistani airspace, the chances of a miscalculated act increases exponentially. It is shocking how the Pakistan govt has been pressurized to shut down JamaatutDawwa w/o providing any proof, which the Indian govt claims to have (they have not contradicted Pakistani claims that no proof has been provided). Further, just to state that the arrested terrorist made such & such statement is meaningless, as there is no way to check that.

Posted by NASIR | Report as abusive

No civilian wants a war anywhere in the world. But wars do occur when the greedy militia wants to reassure its power and superiotity over its neighbours. Unfortunately for Pakistan, after its independence from British, most of the time it has been ruled by militia. History has it that pakistan lost its East Pakistan which became Bangladesh. If Pakistan continues its military misadventures any further, the days are not far off when it will lose Baluchistan and other border provinces for formation of buffer states.

Better wake up Pak before it is too late. Nobody will take any of your buffings lightly any more. Enough is enough. Mind you, Allah is with righteous people, defenitely not with ISI or Pak Military. India has more Muslim population than the entire Pakistan. In the hour of need all Indians stand united irrespective of religions. Have you all not read what Mr. M J Akbar, famous Editor wrote after Mumbai attcks? He is urging Indian Government to take military action against Pakistan. Insha Allah. GOD is ALWAYS GREAT and will never side with the fake Jihadis of Pakistan and its ISI.

Posted by Ramesh | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a great nation and there are many things to write home about. There are problems, is there a country that has no problems. Even the greatest nations went through a turbulent period where every day there were questions about their very existence. Can you forget that United States of America nearly split into confederates and the unionists? Only with the great leadership of Abraham Lincoln and some luck did America stayed together after the confederate army was defeated at the Gettysburg. And look where USA is today. We must tell our people that there is hope at the end of tunnel. Look what we have achieved in the last 60 years, a country with no infrastructure to speak of and which did not even have a needle to bind papers at the time of independence is now feeding 170 million people.
Yes there is corruption and bad governance but does that mean that we tell our people everyday that your country is going to finish tomorrow. Lets give them something concrete steps to think about and work on, lets give them some ideas to survive and prosper and this is my belief that if we keep doing our work as opinion makers than eventually the word will get through and we shall see our great country of Pakistan at the top of ever positive endeavour in the world. Let’s take our country back.
Please visit my blog at http://www.real-politique.blogspot.com to get some ideas about how we can achieve that. Please also leave your own ideas if you think that my ideas need improvement.

Indians you are all talk talk talk and no action!!!

If your govenment could do anything they would have by now but they are powerless against Pakistan.

If USA/CHINA did not put littel pressure on Pakistan nothing would have been done so its just a play to please the west as always.

Fact remains the same – AZADI FOR KASHMIR and the KASHMIRIS!!!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

The world needs to help Pakistan, the country is the only country which has been affected the most by the War On Terror, which Mr Bush started and got the farewell he deserved in Iraq by the Iraqi journalist.

Pakistan has lost more soldiers in this war then any other country.

Pakistan has lost more civilians killed by terrorism then anyone else.

Pakistan has suffered economicaly, politicaly and in many other fields.

How can you blame the whole nation for this I do not see any logic. Every coutry has problem and we need to help those nations to overcome these problems, indstead of marginalsing the coutry and the people.

When there is no sport being played cos other countries teams fear security. Then I wonder the young n hopeless people of Pakistan have only one door open. Which is to terrorism, we are only fueling the problem for our allie.
An allie which helped us to dfeat the monstor of USSR. Which was India best friend!

UN should implement the resulution it has past half cetury ago e.g. on KASHMIR and nopt passnerw ones till the old can be implemented. Thats why UN has become so powerless it cannot implement but pass new ones. I have been to Pakistan and feel the people are more taleneted then anyother but they need hope not BOMBS!!!

Posted by Alan | Report as abusive

Since India asked UN to act against Pakistani based charitable organization, should it also implement UN resolution on Kashmir … withdraw military from disputed territory and give free choice to Kashmirees? It is rather Hippocratic to ask UN help while ignoring resolution passed in 1948.

Posted by M. Ahmed | Report as abusive

Reason
You seem to boast about Indian military myth, I can say with full confidence that Pakistan Air Force is a force to be reckoned with. I say because my father served in PAF for over 25 years, I have seen closely what an effective fighting force it is. The PAF is equipped with F-16 Fighting falcons, elite squadrons based in Sargodha airbase. These are superior to SU-30 Flankers which have a larger airframe and lower manouverability. The new JF-17s are already being inducted, although short of AWACS, the PAF radar capabilities are advance and different SAM(Surface-to-Air) missiles are part of PAF inventory. The F-16s can carry nuclear warheads and the avionics have been modified locally. Make no mistake, Pakistani pilots have a history going back to 1965/71 Indo-Pak wars, they shot down Israeli Phantoms and Mirage aircrafts in the Arab-Israeli wars while flying out of Syrian and Jordanian airbases. As of today, Pakistani pilots are seconded to the RAF academy in UK for instructor flying training, this is the caliber of PAF. The motto is quality not quantity. One Pakistani pilot flying an F-16 can take on a handful of Indian pilots flying any Flankers or MiGs. And if in a dog fight a PAF pilot would jam his guns, or be short of fuel or ammo, he could still manouvere and reach his base through sheer courage and skill. Do Indian pilots have it in them?
Indian military might is a myth, the world saw when the Indian Navy was playing hide and seek with indisciplined Somali pirates in Indian ocean and left its own coast unattended while terrorists sneaked into Mumbai via sea.
Fact is Pakistan Armed Forces and the Inter Services Intelligence are as professional a military as any other in the world.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

“”Fact is Pakistan Armed Forces and the Inter Services Intelligence are as professional a military as any other in the world.

- Posted by Umair “”

GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR!

Umair, I appreciate your confidence in PAF..but it would be a mistake to say F-16s are superior to SU-30′s, F-16′s are marginally better than SU-30′s only in speed that to at no payload, SU’s are the best in the world when it comes to manouvarability, ever seen the cobra stunt (braking in mid air)??
The new JF-17s ?? correction the 250 JF-17s being commissioned aren’t new but second hand chineese.Dont expect you get newly manufactured 250 shiney JF-17 for $400 million..
Pakistani pilots do have a history going back to 1971..India won the war in such short time because Indians had air superiority..
Advanced radar capabalities and SAMs !! why are they left to rusting when drone crafts are killing almost everyday ?? was PAF sleeping when US commandoes launched a land raid in pakistan ??

and FYI, IAF trainers train RAF pilots.
To add about F-16′s in pak, they arenot the full versions of the actual F-16s the US has..F-16s are given to pak only for using the name of F-16..they do not posses full electronics and the gadgets that the actual F-16 used by US..
Yes the world hailed Indian navy when they took on pirates, Indian navy is atleast working to make the world a safe place..where is pakistani navy ?? hiding ??

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

The main point here is that the Indian Air Force should not have violated Pakistani airspace.

Posted by Naila | Report as abusive

Ok, so Indian military is a myth then.

Would you explain why did your powerful and professional military surrender to this mythical military force three times? Pakistani miliatry force (and the air force) surrendered three times despite all the military aid and help from US and China. Why do your professional military force took part in a Bangladesi genocide? I can not recall a professional and respected military force behave in this way and get away with it.

Feeling great about one’s own country is every citizen’s duty. I do not blame you. However, when you talk in an international forum, please remember, here you are not going to get help from US or Chinese government and LeT is very unlikely to show up with a gun here. So get your facts straight and make some sense.

Let me give you a word of advice. It took both of our country 60 years to reach where we are. Despite all of our challenges related to multiple race, religion and ethnicity, we reached a position that actually brings some amount of respect from people all across the world. Sadly, your leadership took all this 60 years to turn your country into a slave of the powerful, nothing more. Please invest your valuable time and effort to build a great nation instead of wasting this time to create human bomb. Unlike you, we do not have a responsibility to destroy your country. So live, prosper and let others live.

Posted by sid | Report as abusive

Umair/Om,

Both of you are idiots.I can only talk of your empty boasts when will you guys grow up.I would rate Pakistan to be superior than India,they are more patriotic & can win any battle in this world.India is a land of cowardice led by a cowardly primeminister,Even after 10 years consistently pakistan has been snubbing & insulting indians they do not have guts to get into a war,since the primeminister knows that their armamemnts are all junks because it was all brought by bribery.All google search reveals Pakistan is superior to India in Nuke weapons also.Who knows india may not also be having the nuclear weapon also.

Umair my recommendation to you is you ask pakistan government to attack India you will win the war,the law of averages is in your favour.Though i am an indian i am not like many of them.i come from tamil nadu where we speak less & do more, honor & respect to us is more important than wealth & food.The only hope for war is if pakistan attacks india & let us see if we can defend ourself.I am tired of North Indian Politician that they do not have any respect also,in the next general election in india they will give bangles to every indian citizen.Go ahead & tell mr zardari to attack india,we have not been successful in convincing the cowardice congress government.You win or i win is not important what is most important is we fight like lions in the battle field & die like one.God whether you call him allah or bhagwan vishnu he likes heroes not cowards like manmohan singh.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

OM
Pakistan Air force is fully awake and Pakistan Army air defence units recently conducted exercise to shoot down drones in Muzzafargarh, Punjab. Pakistan Air Force Air weapons complex factory located in Wah, also manufactures its own local drones. PAF chief of staff gave a statement before Mumbai attacks that Pakistan air force has the capability to shoot down drones but it is up to government of Pakistan to decide to deal with the US diplomatically or order PAF to open fire.
On F-16s, yes Pakistani model was not advanced. But Pakistani technicians at the Aeronautical complex in Kamra have extensively upgraded the avionics for these F-16s which have matched in capability the advanced versions of the aircraft.
US commandoes crossed Waziristan and launched ground attack on September 3. After that Pakistan Army ordered the troops stationed across the entire western border with Afghanistan to open fire on any US or NATO choppers crssing Pakistani air space. There have been a few incidents when US chinooks had to flee Pakistan airspace when they came under fire from ground by Pakistan Army units. In one instance, the Pakistani troops fired on US helicopters who retreated to Afghan side of the border, the US ground troops in Afghan side returned fire on Pakistani troopsand were again engaged by Pakistani troops.
Now, this is what Gen. Musharraf used to call offensive defense. Clear orders, significant incursion, open fire.

Pakistan Navy with its Augusta French submarines, different destroyers and frigates/warships armed with advanced missile systems maybe short of an aircraft carrier. But I can tell you it has the most stringent selection criteria among the three armed forces of Pakistan. The best officers get the chance to serve in Pakistan Navy. Here too, Pakistan has termendous capability with a well organized, well trained and motivated force.
The strike force of PAF are acombination of F-16s, Mirage-iii and v and F-7Ps. The JF-17s are a backup multirole fighters. As advanced jets like Gripens etc or euro fighters are out of reach. However, with most limited resources, PAF is as lethal a force as you can get.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Spec ops raids into Pakistan halted

By Sean D. Naylor – Staff writer
Posted : Monday Sep 29, 2008 12:28:55 EDT

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/Ar my_border_ops_092608w/

US Army Times newspaper story 29 September 2008. Excerpts from the article below on the Sept 3 ground raid in Waziristan tribal region by US special forces:

But a U.S. government official closely involved with policy in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region said the military had underestimated the Pakistani response and was reconsidering its options.

The official’s comments were echoed by a field grade special operations officer with Afghanistan experience. The Sept. 3 raid “was an opportunity to see how the new Pakistani government reacted,” the officer said. “If they didn’t do anything, they were just kind of fairly passive, like [former Pakistani President Pervez] Musharraf was … then we felt like, okay, we can slowly up the ante, we can do maybe some more of these ops. But the backlash that happened, and especially the backlash in the diplomatic channels, was pretty severe.”

The raid represented “a strategic miscalculation,” the U.S. government official said. “We did not fully appreciate the vehemence of the Pakistani response,” which included the Pakistan government’s implication that it was willing to cut the coalition’s supply lines through Pakistan. “I don’t think we really believed it was going to go to that level,” the government official said.

The military’s comments about the Sept. 3 raid sending a message represented a smokescreen, said the government official, who added that the mission “was meant to be the beginning of a campaign.” “We miscalculated, and now we’re trying to figure out how to walk the dog back. One way to do that is to say, ‘Oh well, we wanted to send a message; we’ve now sent that message, and so we’re going to not send it as much in the future, yet we’re still sort of leaving it on the table, because as we all know, we never admit to a mistake.’

“Once the Pakistanis started talking about closing down our supply routes, and actually demonstrated they could do it, once they started talking about shooting American helicopters, we obviously had to take seriously that maybe this [approach] was not going to be good enough,” the government official said. “We can’t sustain ourselves in Afghanistan without the Pakistani supply routes. At the end of the day, we had to not let our tactics get in the way of our strategy. … As much as it may be good to get some of these bad guys, we can’t do it at the expense of being able to sustain ourselves in Afghanistan, obviously.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

OM
So i would say, If Pakistan threatened the US, which is a super power, to cut the supply lines and logistical support to its forces in Afghanistan. And ordered its troops to open fireon US helicopers and actually did open fire on them on more than one occasion. And then the US had to halt any further ground raids till to date.
Just imagine India, which is not even a super power like US. Pakistan has all the capability to paralyse India.
Our message is peace, our message is NO to terrorism. Our faith is Islam, which has never preached me to terrorize. You must keep this in mind. We share the grief of Mumbai attacks, we know there were muslims who lost their lives. But we want to live in peace with honour and dignity.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

STOP the jingoism. India & Pakistan have millions & millions of illiterate & extremely poor people, who need attention, rather than war. The literacy rate in India & Pakistan is 65% (total population 1.2B) and 54% (total population 160mm) respectively. These numbers show where both countries need to concentrate on. India having approx. 400 million illiterates. Education and well being of the poor people needs attention rather than WEAPONS & WARS. Good thing is India is already making progress in the right direction, however, a war could put brakes on all that. A war in the 21st Century will be very different from the previous wars, and if Pakistan is pushed into a corner, that could be very very bad news.

I ask the Indians to remember that Pakistan is currently fighting the menace of terrorism (which got worse under a military dictator supported by the US). Rather than blaming Pakistan, they should provide the evidence of LeT involvement (which they claim to possess). If Pakistan is provided the evidence & does not act against those guilty, then they have lost their case in the world opinion. Until then, all the allegations against JamaatutDaawa are meaningless and reminds one of the histeria created by the world media regarding Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, which did not exist. It is shocking how all US news channel jumped on the band wagon within hours in blaming LeT, including NPR (what happened to ensuring the facts first?). They forget that the Samjhota Express is a recent example where Muslims were blamed for the atrocities, which investigations later proved to be the work of Indian officers. As a result thousands of Muslims were massacred in the Indian state of Gujarat.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive

Umair/Nasir,

It was India which has been attacked consistently for the past 10 years.We had enough with all these things. Let us have a nuclear attack on each of us & decide this once & for all.Ok we know Pakistanis are brave people, the most intelligent people, with 10 fidayeens you could engage 500 soldiers so why don’t you guys attack us now. Why don;t you fight a straight war when as LET says they can hoist the Paki flag in our redfort. Go tell your government to attack India & destroy us.We will see who will win. Forget all these statistics, literate, illiterate, caste , religion etc, Let us fight in our times like lions & tigers.Beleive me one more attack on India even God will not be able to save the nuclear war even if we have cowards as primeminister.As indians we are sick, tired of dying everyday through terrorism.You just handover dawood & other criminals to us,otherwise this war is inevitable people in India will never forget what you did to us by murdering our citizens in the most cold blooded fashion.There will be 50 Nuke bombs which you will explode on us, we will also recirocate with 40 nuke bombs at you.Game set & match for you guys, your nuclear deterrent is but a fake which your army played on you.That is todays thinking by all of us. Like the way you changed our life we will now change your life.

Whether there is evidence or no evidence who cares anymore convincing you people,let us get ready for the war man.Let us stop talking & start behaving like men.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

Vijay its Indians like you who are war mongers. Read the articles BBC where even the hindu community in Pakistan is protesting at the closure of the Jammat-e-Dawa because it use the feed the needy. I can agree part of the organisation might be involved in miltancy but why because of the Indian Army. Which is occupiing our Kashmir valley get out and there would be no groups like these.

In reagrds to way you lot bark like kutays but no action. Bring it on u war mongers we’ll show you what Pakistan is made of!!! Pakistan Zinda bad!!!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive

Ali, its terrorists like you in pakistan who are creating war mongers like vijay in India.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

Vijay,
You are a disgrace to the Indian people, for so callously talking about fighting a nuclear war. Two hundred dead people in Mumbai drive you to propagate nuclear war, but you probably never gave a second thought to the killing of thousands & thousands of Kashmiris to deny them the right of self determination which your prime minister Nehru promised to the world sixty years ago.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive

Vijay and Om
Shut your mouths and dont bark anymore because India cannot fight a war with Pakistan in first place. Even if they do, we will cut India into 10 more pieces, we will take revenge of 1971 defeat.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I wouldn’t call just a little violation of airspace a brinkmanship..Yeah brinkmanship would have been appropriate if few bombs were unloaded on Lahore and POK..

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

Om
only if Indian pilots would have balls to drop a few bombs in Lahore or Kashmir and get away with it. Knowing they would be chased and downed by PAF fighters, no Indian pilot will ever think of dropping his bombs.
If Americans never dared so, India will never ever. Not at any cost.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair come out of illusion..US have dared many times that pakistan has forgotten to count..look up there could be another US drones flying over your house..If US can India also can very well do it.
The tragedy of pakistan is..you still dont dare to say if it is US that is dropping bombs..pakistani media always reports “suspected” US drones fired missles..Pakistani PAF is so great..that they could not till date find out if they are US drones..how do you know ?? It could be Isreal, Russia or India !!

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

First of all UMAIR,

Your fighter planes, once they run out of fuel, will have no where to land, and once and if they do, there will be no airport or personnel there to receive them.

The Pak Air Force is no match for the Might of the Indian Military. The Pak Military would be flattened beyond recovery within 3 to 4 days. Pak would cease to be a functioning society. That is why Pak always maintains a nuclear threat against India. Even if Pak did exercise the nuclear option against India, India would still be a recoverable society, but Pak however would be not much more than a scratch on the earth, afterwards, so please be realistic here and don’t go bragging about the fictitious and self delusional prowess of the Pak Air Force, just please talk in real terms, and keep the conversation outside of the dreamworld.

India’s the U.S. and the rest of the World’s patience is wearing thin. If Pakistan can not clean or purge itself of Radical Jihadi Islamicists, its corrupt ISI, corrupt Military Leaders, Madrassas and culture of hate, the World will find a way to do it for them. On its present course, you better believe this, there will be “A Day of Reckoning” for Pakistan, if it does not clean itself up. This situation is not in the interest of the Pakistani citizens or anyone in the world.

The world wants Pakistan to be a productive, secular democracy like India. Pakistan is doomed to fail as an Islamic state because too many players are using this ideology of religion to further their own agendas.

It is best if the citizens take control of their country to build a lasting democracy that is SECULAR and make a choice to join the rest of the modern world and end its pathological hatred of India, the Jews and the rest of the Western world, without whose Food Handouts it cannot survive.

Just remember, hate cannot make a country survive. Perhaps hatred of the Hindus was enough to form Pakistan, but it is not enough to fuel its sustainability. Once the hate is gone, Pakistan will unravel.

The World, especially India is fed up and tired with these cat and mouse games with Pakistani trained terrorists. Sorry that Pakistan keeps getting blamed here, but Pakistan has no credibility right now, none whatso ever, all terrorism is focused to develop from Pakistan, remember that 40% of Guatanamo detainees are Pakistani.

Pakistan and you UMAIR can start by stopping the pathological lying and plausible denials for Pakistani ground being used for Terrorism. It is time for frank honesty, or there will be no path forward.

So, please do not fabricate elaborate conspiracy stories, we are not fools born yesterday. Standup and be honest about things, or regress to the “Dark Ages”.

Posted by Reason | Report as abusive

Ali786,Ymair,Nasir

Listen Men,You win this arguement,i don’t deny i am also a barking dog.We are only talk & no action becuase of different international diplomatic & political dimensions.A day does not pass when i think how much of a cowards we as indians have been reduced into.I think the sun with his one eye is a witness to every atrocity & cold blooded murder you have inflicted on us.
Yes you will cut us into 10 pieces & take revenge on us that is what bothers me why my government is not attacking you,one day when all your crimes are over the pot that day when this attack takes place you will cease to exist as a nation.Every Indian blood spilt will be accounted for.Before you split india think again Balochi & Sindhi will seek freedom from you,both those countries will be bribed with $20BN-30BN by India & international community and only punjabi pakistan will be attacked very ferociously.Pakistan was the only intelligent country in the muslim world which could make a nuke bomb,now after cessation of pakistan which i will think will happen within 5 years at the most what will you do.You are doomed man with war or without war, you have become a failed state.After you fall of the cliff then India will crumble coz of the chinese & the chinese will crumble becuase of Japan, taiwan & Korea.Israel will then attack iran & convert them to christians & then your middle east will be changed for ever.The whole world will become a bible thumping place.So listen all this you can prevent if you hand over criminals like dawood, hafiz syed or you hang them immediately.It will prove you are sincere and we can save ourself from being called cowards,if dawood is not handed over to us we will think you want to destroy us so we will come after you,In victory there will be defeat for us, in defeat there will be victory for sindhi & balochi. Having said that i will trust a christian to a pakistani coz they are more cultured & civilized,you never use your brain, you did not use it in 1947,1965 ( you attacked us thinking we were depleted in our resources after 1962 war), 1971 , 1999 ( Kargill).Your nuke bomb is a fake,it is useless since all your nuke bomb cannot kill more than 20% of Indians in one week.India would simply nuke your punjabi pakistan & in 2 days it will cease to exist & also your country since other province may fall to propoganda & may sabotage your army.They will not trust punjabi army nor you will trust them.Since you never used your brains & always thought of India as your enemy & kept killing us in cold blood,we now need to wage a war against you since we need to exist as a nation even if you don’t want to be one.For continuity of our race we need this war else we will be destroyed in history or we become a bible thumping nation.Count your numbered days as a nation with or without war you will be broken into pieces.

As far JUD charity does not give anyone a right to sabotage a country,if i were a paki i will force the government to take care of its citizen not a charity organisation.The funding for charity will be involuntarily in the begining & then it becomes a forced one which means you create a parallel government within a government.Corruption, extortion, private army,law & order are all its evil.Just read sub continent history of how east india company organised itself, they picked a warehouse & using pretext of banditry they armed themselves & they became bandits by attacking smaller princes & then took over entire country.Think systamatically about these organisation.

When i suggested war i know it is good for my nation & this planet since we can never progress unless we disarm pakistan completely.It calls for sacrifice on our citizens but it is worthy one for existence of the Indian Nation.We know you will always be scheming one way or the other to destroy us & kill us in cold blood.

Posted by vijay | Report as abusive

Guys,
These guys (Pakistanis) are wholly insane. Their delusions are like their new religion called Pslam lol.

@Pakistanis here…
Well we and the US don’t dare to drop the nuke or a bomb on your land… What if we all (World Community) joined together and stop all your fund requests @ IMF, World Bank, and force you to pay off the balances. THINK your nation don’t even exist, well you will become another North-Korean soon.
Therefore first try to close you holes and then peep on others.
Your all Army ruled people are deported to UK, they enjoyed every buck of your nation. Everyone for that matter. You people are so blind that you see nothing except a revenge on India, however you leaders see the $$ from US and other means.
Your trust on Chinese is another delusion, infact Chinese are clever than you think, they use you to protect China from Terrorism, they are fully aware of your greediness of Bombs and improvising you Army lol They sell out their outdated technology to you for cheaper price than trashing it, and you think you are advancing haha… how many of your F-16 are capable to fly? How many deals you have with other nations to train ur pilots to fly them and repair them. It make no mistake in telling this that India will sweep off you nation, and your PAF still keeps finding an ignition to start the plane.
May Jia-Ul-Haq bless you.
May Parveez Musharraf bless you.
May the next coup Army chief bless you.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

If there is one more attack on India, Pakistan will be deleted from the map.

The line is drawn here.

Posted by Global Safety | Report as abusive

DEMOCRACY ASSUMES A CIVIL SOCIETY THAT VALUES LIBERTY, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND PROGRESS. PAKISTAN/AFGHANISTAN IS NOT A CIVIL SOCIETY. THE ARMY, ISLAMIST IDEOLOGY AND HATRED ARE THE ONLY COMMON GROUND FOR PAKISTAN AS A NATION. PAKISTAN SHOULD BE DISMANTLED INTO SMALLER NATIONS BASED ON ETHNIC ORIGIN TO GIVE THE PEOPLE A COMMON SENSE OF IDENTITY OTHER THAN ISLAMIST IDEOLOGY. HOW MUCH MONEY WILL WE WASTE ON BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN THESE FAILED STATES? ONLY REALISTIC SOLUTION – BOMB TALIBAN AND THEIR AFFILIATES, DISMANTLE PAKISTAN, DESTROY THEIR NUKES.

Posted by Chris Smith | Report as abusive

Chris Smith
Only if it was too easy to dismantle a powerful muslim nation of 160 million people armed with nukes. Any attempt to dismantle Pakistan will result in nuclear retaliation. Pakistan will remain united for ever. If you cant live with this reality GO TO HELL.
Pakistan will never be broken.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Thank you for reminding us one more failure incidence of indian seurity forces – idiots oh sorry indians says thier country is super power — i wonder how come – if they can’t stop assault on thier country then how can they survive war on pakistan. Yes they are super liar and super in off-loading thier faults and failure on Dawood Ibrahim – who is infact an indian, Pakistan – which was created only because of hindus inhuman behaviour with muslims (have you never heared of genocide of muslims while migrating to pakistan), and Al-Qaida and Kashmiri militants — I wonder if indians could give any single true evidence to support thier lies.

indian lies can be evidence from the fact that in all the initial photos of the person arrested and accused of being one of the terrorist in mumbai attack was wearing orange/red thread band on his right wrist (which is the symbol of hinduism, however, now those photos are digitally modified to remove that band —- what do you say about it.

I do not understand why we link one’s act to the whole of his/her nation or religion. we have seen jewish cruelty in palestine, indians brutality in occupied Kashmir, gujrat, mumbai, tamil nadu and many other massacre, and others in iraq, afghanistan, but none was linked to chritians, hindus, jewish etc, then why ISLAM, which is the religion of peace and not only for humans but to everybody and everything in this whole universe, i wish i could get a real answer.

I recommend those in support of wish for Pakistan destruction – should consult a good Psychiatrist because thier mental stability is greatly in disorder.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Umair/Peace,

I am willing to go to hell 100 times if pakistan is deleted from the map for the life,safety & security of India & this Planet.I am surprised that you find atrocity against muslims, What about east turkestan & xianjing where islam is really buthchered they are nice friendly chinese people for you because they protect pakistani,what about Africa where christians in 1902 from zero went upto 300 Millions.Compare that to india where from 9% muslim population it is now 13% & you brand hindus as the most violent race,I have been to many countries in the world while we may have filth & dirt,everybody can smell fresh air here without exception can u say same thing anywhere including your saudi arabia.You treat us as dogs even if our nurses cares your sickest patient with kindness.What kind of morality & justice is this man,that your bloody sick sheikhs who is 60 year old picks a 14 year old girl for his lust.All your terrorist attacks have been only on poor & ignorant people, why don’t you teach in your madrasa how a dawood can drink in his bar and get himself a strip tease with some bolywood actress and he is the epitome of islam.Is Jihad & fatwa only for people who travel in trains & buses & against poor people in somalia/nigeria/dafur.Is there no fatwa against the chinese who thrust the porks on your islamic brother & hang them in the tree.What about a fatwa against all the people who sell heroin to college grads,what about a fatwa or jihad against people who try to use 14 year old innocent kids to wield AK47, is there no hope for him in the islamic world.

Islam in pakistan is not religion of peace but a religion of terror which unleashes crime against innocent,weak & defenceless people.Don’t talk about Indians as idiots whereever we have gone our companies have built hospitals, educational institutes & trained the workers to earn better salary & contributed to the economy by paying taxes without selling hinduism to the people in africa unlike you who sold islam or the christian missionaries or the chinese who swindle those countries.Our culture of 5000 years has among many traits ahimsa (Non Violence).The most oppressed people in this world are the hindus & the african tribes.When i see the genocide in darfur,somalia,mumbai,nigeria,philipines i hate islam more than ever.If Mohammed & his stupid religion had not given birth in this world we would have saved millions of poor defenceless people.Just because you have oil money is it your right to kill everyone who does not preach islam.

Let us be clear you can call me a dog i will agree, you call me a idiot i will agree but if you call India or Indians anything then my fury will burn you.

The most talented Indians know how to defend ourself by advancing aggressively our advancement in science & technology,without chest thumping we will work in our laboratory day & night to defend ourself from world,s aggressor.Trust me even with the chinese support and many jai singhs within India, we will still crush you decisively.This is for justice against those barbarians who killed us in cold blood poor,defenceless, hardworking people in our railway station.You, Your corrupt army,your ideological terrorists, your cunning, manipulative mind,your stupid maulvis will be brought to book.The chinese will one day take over you, then the iranians & the whole middle east without you noticing also.It is a pity that you,your army, your leaders never got you freedom, you have been cursed for life to be slaves to americans or chinese or saudi arabians or some religious fanatics or taliban.None of you built a country of Pakistan where you thought what was in interest of pakistan.You have identity crisis whether you are a muslim first or a pakistani.If i were a pakistani i would first sort that out by identifying first as a patriot of pakistan & then will allow other consideration.Teach history of turkey in your madrasa not the sheiks book or criminality of osama or hypocracy of dawood.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

vijay & all other idiots
what a long stor from you, but nothing specific — use your garbage of words on you hypocratic media — we are not willing to hear you false stories and presumptions on baised believes. Give us the pinpoint answers to the questions asked in my previous comments — well about your immoral country i have nothing to say for a place where even now baby girls are killed on birth or mothers get abortions for carrying girl pregnancy – see kapil dev selling this story now a days on all indian channels. All the statistics shown are not significant for a country representing 1/6 of world population.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Indian leadership is weak. India is under tremendous preassure internally to strike. Congress knows that if they strike, they may win the next year election. India violation of airspace was deliberate and was testing PAF capability. Just today the Indian FM issued a statement that All options are on table.

Pakistan should be ready and should strike hard if Indians tries to strike in Azad Kashmir. I don’t want to see a war but limited war may happen, I hope I am wrong. In addition, I don’t see India being any power in this world, all the big powers have safe neighborhoods, India can’t even lead peace in the region, only 10 terrorist can rattle this country.

Posted by eddy | Report as abusive

TRUTH UNFOLDED:
Ajmal Amir Kasab, an accused in the Mumbai carnage was originally arrested in Nepal and kidnapped by Indian intelligence agencies. Nepal had arrested Ajmal Kasab before 2006 and handed him over to India. It should be noted that there was no visa requirement for Indian nationals and they could visit Nepal even without a passport. Kathmandu had become a hub of Indian intelligence agencies which freely operated there and faced no resistance from law-enforcement agencies even if they chose to kidnap somebody for taking him to their country. source http://www.dawn.com

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

the pic shown is of mig-29′s & not of sukhois as mentioned

Posted by meenal joshi | Report as abusive

Well said vijay..

Posted by nanda | Report as abusive