Pakistan: Rethinking its relationship with China?

December 22, 2008

For Pakistan-watchers, I recommend reading this op-ed in the Daily Times calling on Pakistan to rethink its relationship with China, traditionally revered as an all-weather friend which will remain reliable even as other allies — like the United States — come and go.

“China has positioned itself for a leading role in global affairs, and will not sacrifice this advantage for the sake of any emotional connection with another state,” writes Shahzad Chaudhry. “As a mature society, the Chinese are realistic enough to realise the advantages and disadvantages of their linkages. Like the Chinese, Pakistanis need to discard their emotions and objectively review and redefine their linkages in view of their own national interests and the new global realities.”

I’ve been puzzling over China’s approach to Pakistan for a while, most recently in this post about China’s decision to support a United Nations Security Council ban on the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the Pakistani charity accused of being a front for the Laskhar-e-Taiba.  Since that followed a refusal by China to bail out Pakistan’s economy – forcing the government to turn to the IMF — I’d begun to wonder whether the “all weather” formula no longer applied.

So it’s interesting to read about the relationship from a Pakistani perspective.  China’s support, writes Chaudhry, had always come at a price, and was counted in numerous, mostly defence-related, projects. ”The large Chinese corporate presence in Pakistan enjoys a reverence beyond any in comparison. But it should not be forgotten that China has always acted on its own interests. Consider that the South Asian region is changing rapidly, with India not only emerging as the most prominent political and economic entity, but also huge market of great interest to China. In addition, China has to consider the American presence in Afghanistan and the Islamist militancy in Xinjiang,” he writes.

“Unfortunately, the reverence that has been bestowed to the Pak-China relationship has blinded most Pakistanis to the ever-changing realities of this relationship. China changed from a closed society to a progressively open one under Deng Xiaoping in the late 1980s and has not looked back since, and has continued to define its relationship with the rest of the world according to its interests. Yet the Pakistani leadership has remained pegged to the historicity of the Pak-China relationship,” he adds.

“For China, in some assessments and in line with their current global leanings, we are but an unnecessary appendage, troublesome because of our image and the difficulties we pose in Xinjiang. Gone are the days when China depended on us as a window to the world; now the world is at China’s doorstep. We should thus devise our policies based on existing imperatives and not on emotional determinants.”

Those are harsh words for a country already under severe pressure from the United States and India over the role of Pakistan-based Islamist militants. But do they also offer an opportunity? Pakistan has often in the past been caught up in  other countries’ fights — during the Cold War, the United States used it to help defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan; then after India and China fought a border war in 1962, Pakistan became a player in a larger struggle between the two Asian giants. If, as Choudhry suggests, China is no longer willing to play that game, does it not give Pakistan an opportunity to take care of itself, rather than being dragged into other countries’ battles that by its own admission have often brought it more harm than good? 

Questions, obviously, for the optimists out there…

(File photo: Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao in Beijing)

71 comments

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I feel your analysis is incorrect….did you even consider who we have at the helm of our affairs and with what reputation? I would deny bail out money if I know the other party will pocket it!I thought ,Myra ,you would be more sensible ….Please wake up and write with open mind and not a directed one!

Posted by Asad | Report as abusive

Pakistan should try to merge with China and become part of Tibet.

Posted by Tikka Khan | Report as abusive

Asad, curious to know who you think is directing my mind? Among the many comments I’ve had on my blogs, I’ve been accused of being an ISI agent and (on an entirely different subject) of having gone native in France. And now a directed mind? While all this has a certain appeal — think ISI agent sipping red wine over steak frites in a village cafe in rural France while receiving messages from a higher power — I’m afraid my life is much less interesting. So to go back to the question, what did you think of the op-ed in the Daily Times?

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive

Myra, you have pointed out the new realities. Whilst what you say is correct, Pakistan offers China a base to further its strategic interests in the Middle East and The Caspian area, besides containing India. Pakistan will not lose an ally in the truest sense, although the relationship will be seen perceptibly as distant. However, for Pakistan to survive as a nation state, its in its own interest to curb the Jihadi elements nurtured by the rogue ISI. Right now Peshawar is in the doghouse, soon enough it will be lahore. As an Indian, do I really want that? HELL NO! Indians want peace with Pakistanis, we’re all essentially the same race. So sad that we’re divided on ideological lines, and forever drifting apart.

Posted by Ratik | Report as abusive

Pakistan was used by USA, China, and most importantly by Entire Islamic world.

First USA used it defeat USSR.

Second China used it for many various purposes as this article showcased.

Then importantly by Islamic world. All the cash rich Arab countries have used Pakistanis to breed terrorists so that they can threaten USA and Europeans.

Arab countries used Pakistanis like their henchmen who can kill USA citizens or any European citizen just by throwing some money.

Arab Countries want Pakistan to be a migraine to western countries.

Pakistan is just a tool for all to be used. Pakistan has no independent life of its own. Its truth you believe it or not. They live by killing Indians and they get money for killing Indians from Arab countries.

Pakistan is bound to fail as its not a true soveriegn country.

Posted by Samuel | Report as abusive

Myra,
Good article.
One thing is true in the article and my readings in all the blogs i have come across.
The emotional and friendly shots are always coming from Pakistani people, really nothing heard or read anything from Chinese people.

Sarcastically “My Chinese (Mainland) friends have a poor English knowledge!!” now I’m not sure whether the same happened between Chinese & Pakistan relationship / friendship.

Therefore optimistically let me put my Chinese friends to answer this and post here…
be right back later.

??????

Posted by Ragzy | Report as abusive

Myra, the Chinese seem to be put off by the brash & aggressive manner the Pakistani’s are conducting themselves & exposing the covert & generally lowkeyed working of the Chinese, the Kargil failure has also lead to some loss of confidence & doubt in the capabilities of the Pakistani Army, above all the counter-productive results that are following & elavating India’s position from an isolated Nation to a accepted ally by the west has damaged their expansionist plans, with the changing opinion of the Global players…not to forget the marketing of the Chinese Nuclear blueprint, which has left them in an embarrassing situation..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

I’ve posted this before, but let me expand.

What does China share with Pakistan?
(A) Shared heritage
(B) shared genetic, ethnic roots of their inhabitants
(C) Chinese and Pakis speak the same language
(D) Pakis eat the same food as Indians
(E) 150 million Muslims live in China
(F) None of the above

THE CORRECT ANSWER IS (F)!! The one and only reason China has had Pak as its friend is to undermine India, and use Pak as a tool. Now, in the past 5 years China has started noticing less and less benefit from pampering Pakistan at the expense of India. The Chinese are focussed on economic development which dictates having better relations with India.

Let us look at the above question again and replace China with India. What does India share with Pakistan? A,B,C,D and E. If Pakistan has not achieved “nationhood” herein lies the answer.

There is no confusion about Sino-Pak relationship. Why china didn’t veto to ban JuD ? This is to blam Pak govt who lobby in US in this favour and President Zardari called Chinese counterpart to NOT veto this sanction. So it is quite obvious china acted on behalfe of Pak govt.

Posted by Amir | Report as abusive

Pakistan needs a paradigm shift in it’s policies, otherwise there are signs that Pakistan is losing friends and is on the verge of isolation:

1)Considering religious militants as first line of defence is a folly. It’s like somebody keeping a human eating lion for one’s protection. Make a semi military battalion and the people who wish to fight, ask them to register under a unified command of Pak army transparently and must be de-briefed. Just banning them will just increase criminals and splinter militant organizations. The people from these organisations who do not join should be considered outlaws and be dealt accordingly.

2)Need to change our suicidal obsession to Kashmir. If Kashmiris are free to practice the religion (which should not be problem in secular India) then this is ‘technically’ speaking no basis for jihad, which the extremist claim. We can officially stick to our claim though, but peacefully.

3)Need to initiate a debate to accept Israel. This is an unnecessary animity which is causing harm to our country. Middle eastern countries and Iran can survive on oil wealth to continue their policy, we have to adjust looking our interest.

3) Involving religion in our governmental affairs resulted in fragmentation of society and institutions. A true secular and pluralistic society will offer peace in many ways.

Posted by Munzir | Report as abusive

I think Victor has got it right. Pakistan did everything it did including becoming the world’s terror centre as an anti-India posture and the Chinese exploited it for the same reason. Hate can only last so long and can give only so much benefit. Pakistan does not seem to have realised that they are compromising their own identity in the process and killing their own country. Why would India like to take on Pakistan with all its problems.

Posted by arajarao | Report as abusive

Pakistan must and can have an independent foreign policy.
Yes, Pakistan and China have commonality of views, but it’s only natural that their relationship must diverge at times. I say the relationship is maturing. There is great goodwill between the countries.
)
But It is Pakistan who must formulate a foreign policy (and internal policy) which reflects reality and independence.
It should be equally friendly with China, Russsia and the USA. It should be equi-distant between Iran and Saudi Arabia. (Pakistan has a very large Shia community). And it should continue to strive (as it has) for the best relationship between it and India.

By the way, I must commend Myra MacDonald for being on the cutting edge of geopolitical thought in bringing this article and other articles to the public view.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Myra,

Although Pakistan aspires to change course however, it will continue to be a “rent” state; a country that charges heavy price – cash, aid, weapons – in return for using its land in the sub-continent. Without external patron Pakistan cannot survive. Needless to say, before 9/11, Pakistan chose to be in the thick of battles between bigger powers. All these years, the govt in Pakistan has been making gullible Pakistanis believe that their country is fighting for causes that are larger than life; such as Islam, Communism etc.

China is already rich & powerful. Besides keeping India in check, China has little utility of Pakistan.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Myra, I think you are right in pointing out the change in sino-pak relationship. But I would like to put couple of questions for your consumption.

1) Who has fought 3 wars with Pakistan

2) Did Pakistan took advantage of Sino-India war in 1962?

3) Who harbored Bangladesh separatist movement on its soil

4) Who and why invaded East Pakistan

5) Was Soviet-Afghanistan during 1970-80s a threat for Pakistan?

6) Who and why carried out nuclear test in 1970s

7) Who is Col. Prohit?

6)

I

Posted by Najam Syed | Report as abusive

Let’s be clear here that pakistan is a “terrorist state” and never have any illusion that it is going to be any different.We have made a grave blunder by suggesting in the international fora that “Pakistan is also a victim of terror.” We should stop interviewing leaders from that country who mouth the same inanities that “you have not produced any proof.”Let us not fall into the trap of providing proof to the culprits. More than 100 acts/attempts of terror recorded in the world since 9/11 have had their roots in Pakistan. More than 40% of the prisoners in Guantanamo are Pakistanis.

We should categorically, unambiguously, unequivocally boycott Pakistan in all aspects for a decade or more. Pakistan is the only territory in the world where an army has a whole country under its control. The state policy of Pakistan is terrorism and their single-point programme of existence is to destroy India.

Posted by robert | Report as abusive

Myra,

While I can appreciate your article, it is almost funny to see the expected and usual Pakistan bashing under the garb of “concerned for Pakistan” Indians here including the gent Robert who proposed a boycott. Start off in Pakistan and then end up boycotting the rest of the Muslim world as I am sure they are all going bonkers over nothing. Maybe, just maybe people need to realize that the kettle is boiling just too close to Pakistan for all this stuff to be happening. While that is a different issue, the point about China and Pakistan is a simple one. Its a mutually beneficial relationship for the two. The leadership in Pakistan knows what it can realistically expect from China and that is the extent of the expectations. Secondly, I want to clarify the point about the UNSC resolution against JUD. The Chinese abstinence was on the basis of Pakistani agreement. There was intense pressure on Pakistan to do something and the most transparent and doable was to allow the UNSC resolution to go through. Thus with Pakistani agreement, the Chinese allowed it to go through. There was no Chinese interests as such in letting this get through the UNSC.

While the Indians here have no qualms in putting forward their concerns about China using Pakistan to keep India busy, the latter keeps the other two worried because of the new alignment in the region and in Central Asia. Its no longer an India vs. Pakistan sort of a thing. There is a lot more going on than meets the eye. Pakistan and China have very many converging interests that would be better served without an Indian hegemony in South Asia aided and abetted by the US. For as long as the Kashmir issue is not resolved, Pakistan and India will be at odd ends.

Posted by Sid | Report as abusive

There is a difference between helping and spoiling. A true friend will help you to improve. In order for you to improve, you must help yourself. IMF is in better position to help Pakistan than China because IMF has a set of rules that Pakistan must follow in order to get help. China is unable and unwilling to set conditions, and giving money to Pakistan will do more harm than good in the long run.
Pakistan and China will continue to be friends because they are important to each other. China is continuing to assist Pakistan in many ways that benefit both countries.

Posted by Ben Gee | Report as abusive

It is a bit too late in the day for a drastic change of policy.
You have fed a ‘jihad on the infidel’ mentality to over 90% of Pakistanis whose only access to education is a madrassa that teaches wahabbi islam even in the capital(Lal Masjid type).

The english speaking cambridge curriculum educated elite are besiged in their own country.

In India even the poorest of the poor(and India still has 100s of millions of poor people) strive to send their children to school get some basic training and get a job,but their pakistani counterparts want their children to go on jehad and fight for the ummah!!!

It is simply too late,you can’t turn a sinking ship.

I think we should go for very tight border controls to avoid an illegal immigrant problems that we face on the bangladesh border.

Posted by Shantanu Chatterjee | Report as abusive

Has boycott even brought any positive change? Ever? What boycott ever brought was missery to the people not the leaders. Boycott brings hostility, defiance, and retaliation. If that is NOT what we want, maybe that is not the right tool. If that is what we want, are we any better than the countries we want to boycott? WE can be a bigger influence to other countries by being their friend than their enemy.

Posted by Ben Gee | Report as abusive

Ben Gee, I totaly agree with your comments and the only one comming out from a civilised person. I am sick of reading all this ranting about Pakistan n Islam I mean there are problems, but they are in every country on this planet, maybe we have bit too much on our plate.

Pak-China has always been friends yes I agree china now becoming a major player on the world stage. BUt chinese will never forget who helped them oen their country and provided a window to outside world. It was Mr Bhutto which asked for china to have the veto power in UN. Both countries have intrest in each other. Both countries already have joint milatry projects as well as civilian e.g. gawader port.

We should allow china to use the port for milatry or for trade. By having this not only the securty of Pakistan will be increased but also the bigger game is india/USA vs Pak/China one can agree or not.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

magic 786,
india is not US ally in its war on terror.it is pak. this is USPAK VS INdia. mumbai attack might have been plotted by US executed by pak to substantiate US presence in afgan, give boost to its soldairs, and send more and more troops to afgan. that is the reason US is forbidding india’s efforts to wage war on pak and not sharing vital clues of intercepts of mumbai attackers available with it. that is the reason terrorists have pikced US citizens for killing. pakistanis cannot think who can be the real friend or enemy because their mind was corrupted with anti india sentiments.

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive

Lets understand “Agression”, Straight forward Agression and Passive Agression.
Knowing India and Pakistan, India practices Passive agression from its very core within its society. Pakistan didnt create Taliban and or Al Qaida, CIA and the Saudi’s did. Pakistan had to go along with the two because there was a Monster (Russia) next door a friend of the enemy India. Then the US left immediately as its goals were met as usual and Pakistan was left with the two devils who were fed Saudi money. And today, the cancer has spread into Pakistan and so is the US (unreliable friend) and the enemy back in Afganistan. So you go figure, can Pakistan afford to go along? In this war where enemies are detirmined and the frinds (USA, China or whoever) are calculating, one has to play the game to the best of its ability. Enemies of Pakistan are crying Foul/ Terrorist State or whatever, but the first use of Atom Bomb was for making Peace, the East India company was to extend trade and the occupation of Kashmir is because the Non Muslim Raja agreed to join India whereas the division of India was on the basis of Muslim Majority. Lets not cry, Just fight, and take pride in dying while trying.

Posted by nader junaid | Report as abusive

Myra,

I think Pakistan is a pretty pragmatic thinker unlike the India of old that mistakenly believed that countries could actually have a selfless relationship. Pakistan has been adept at managing tensions within relationships with the US, India, Afghanistan, terrorist outfits and others against incredible odds. While the platitudes in public fora wax eloquent about the true friendship they have with China, I think Pakistan is also similarly engaging China. After all, for Pakistan too, Chinese threats as perceived by India are important. Thus they employ China in the same way as China does Pakistan. This too may be undergoing some nuancing now that the India-China relantionship is being redefined in the context of trade, economic cooperation, political rapprochement, etc.

That said, I do not believe that China is turning against Pakistan. It could be that their relationship is becoming more nuanced. China may not see Pakistan as serving the same purposes they used to a few years ago. It is still a market for Chinese arms and other products. Why would they want to cultivate a foe in the region where they already have a rival in the form of India? They need all the friends they can get. The same goes for India, wherein we need to improve our relationships with Myanmar, Bangladesh, et al, without losing sight of the fact that they cannot be truly ‘friends’.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

venkat:!

US is Pakistan allie when they need Pakistan. We do not get educated in schools to hate India but we are taught who has been our enemy No1 who have waged war on us. Surely every country with history is taught that as WW1/WW2 are still taught in UK and elsewhere to educate its citizens.

It was USA who pressed Pakistan to go after anyone who had links to the inncident. As UN council resolution demands Pakistan has fulfilled that demand and closed JUD.

Now has India banned the Terrorist hindi organisations that burn mosques, churches and their rogue army raping kashmiri women, burning homes, not allowing kashmiri to protest in peace, having their leaders under house arrest. Surely that is not the best advert for Indian democracy is it?

Also I wonder what people make of the remark by indian minister that how did the anti terror chief eneded up on the frontline and got killed. As he was the guy who was investigating the Army Chap that was accused of blowing up train well not accused. It is confirmed I wonder how much that inccident has to do with whole this scenario.

India needs to give kashmiris a free voice what they want as backed by the UN. Yes Azad Kashmir can also chosse hwo they want to be with. But India with all its dilectory tactics has failed to convince the world abut the inccident.

No proof so far has been handed over to Pakistan or the interpol so get a life as they saying goes “innocent till proven guilty” but in Indian fanatic mentalty it is “guilty until proven innocent”.

Posted by aLI | Report as abusive

THIS IS IN REPONSE TO December 23rd, 2008
4:54 am GMT – Posted by Najam Syed

1) Who has fought 3 wars with Pakistan. —-EACH AND EVERY SINGLE time the wars were started by Pakistan. You forgot to include the 4th war- Kargil 1999, the 5th war Mumbai 2008

2) Did Pakistan took advantage of Sino-India war in 1962?—- CHINA AND PAK HAVE worked together in the past, not clear how this question is relevant here.

3) Who harbored Bangladesh separatist movement on its soil- PAK TRIED TO RETALIATE and return the favor to India- sponsoring “Khalistan”, Kashmir jihad. In the process the PAK economy has lagged far behind, HAS BECOME A “FAILED STATE” and brand name of PAKISTAN is associated with terrorism the world over. The choice is yours.

4) Who and why invaded East Pakistan- PAK GENERALS, PAK ARMY unleashed the biggest GENOCIDE ever of Muslims in 1971; refugees flooded India. Literally Pak army delivered the ripe fruit of Bangladesh to India. India had to do very little.

THIS IS IN REPONSE TO December 23rd, 2008
4:54 am GMT – Posted by Najam Syed

5) Was Soviet-Afghanistan during 1970-80s a threat for Pakistan?- THE ONE AND ONLY threat to Pakistan has been its militaristic focus. —–And not being focused on economic development and building democracy, institutional apparatus for 61 years. Pakistan is not Afghanistan, Soviets could not have run over Pakistan.

6) Who and why carried out nuclear test in 1970s- THIS QUESTION IS A REFLECTION of Pak megalomania, trying to punch above its size. PAK MEGALOMANIA = believing India, a country much larger by size and economy is equal to Pak. After Chinese invasion in 1962, India decided to go nuclear. This has nothing to do with Pakistan. BY THE SAME logic, PAKISTAN DOES/DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS. India and China are competitors, but India doesn’t go around openly competing with China, and making a fool of itself. But Pakistan does exactly that, making a fool of oneself.

7) Who is Col. Prohit?—–What’s your point? It happened on Indian soil, under investigation. IF COL.PUROHIT had come to Lahore and shot down unarmed civilians with AK-47 rifle, and bombed hotels, Ban Ki-Moon at the UN, and Dr.Rice will support Pakistan.

Vijai,

I think china & pakistan will grow stronger in their relationship.Also china may try to build up a better tie up with Bangladesh & may start the provocation for India shortly. In terms of GEO politic relevance India may become a very small country in terms of global significance & may be assailed by global security concerns more than ever. In a situation like this India needs to actively collaborate with Israel more closely than ever in terms of developing its scientific pool by coming up with solutions to alternatives to Oil, external security by having better deterrent in our nuke stock piles & really warn a few countries for misadventure with existential damages in case of any attack on us.

In the next few years rather than trying to get a better profiling in international stages we should simply lie low or take a lower profile. This to me would be a better strategy. On the domestic front if we don.t move to a totalitarian or a army kind of a regiment quicker than ever we may end up getting disintegrated also.Unfortunately in the past 60 years we seem to be more stranded than ever where like pakistan we may end up getting used or consumed by western powers. The best thing for indian diplomacy is to make sure we start being international migraine by providing Afghanistan & Iran the Nuclear weapons blue prints to make them get closer to us & create some instability in the west or make west to be more sensitive to us.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

China has changed over time with regard to pakistan..Now china way ahead is choosy not only with pakistan but with anyother country..France or India for that matter..Sino Relations with pak or anyother country are delt according to individual issue and the consequenses for china by taking sides..as far as supporting ban of JUD at UN seems like china didn’t wanted to upset India and pakistanis didn’t seem to ask/lobby china for veto the ban.On the other hand it continues the support to pakistan with building nuclear plants and ports which will not conflict Chineese intrests with India.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

There is a misconception among idiots that Pakistan has been defeated in all four wars with india. The super liars had been defeated by Pakistan in 1965 and one of Pakistan super pilot destroyed five indian jets in one minute, when india attacked Lahore without prior notification. In 1971 there was no war, it was war within Pakistan resulted in separation of west Pakistan, and that was done by the cruel intention of india and its R&AW intelligence agency. During Kargil Incident then indian PM went to USA for begging the piece from Pakistan, and Pakistan leave that position on its own on instruction of Bush, look at statistics which side got more dead soldiers. The first war was created by Hindu created cast sikhs – cast whose main objective is to protect hindus – when then genocide millions of muslims migrating to the independent and true country of peace.

Mumbai attacks are self created and there exist lots of evidences particularly the arrest of two men and then identified as states personnel, further there exist no corroborating evidence to Pakistan or any Pakistani link to that incident – Why so far evidence is provided to either Pakistan or anyone else in the world.

India had previously threaten to attack Pakistan, but now feared away. WHY? INDIA HAS WHOLE LIES AND NO TRUTH

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Over the past 60 years of thaw between India and Pakistan, it has always been Pakistan who was belligerent. All its misadventures (including 1947, 1965, 1971 and Kargil) have backfired. It has been continuing to wage war against India through drugs, illegal currency, insurgency and terrorism. However, the entire Pakistani Military and Government seems to be badly shaken this time. In the cover of a tough posture, all is not so well with Pakistan.

India has always been alone in the war against Pakistan with China and USA strongly supporting it, although not directly. In 1971 war, USA was very close to interfering and had sent its infamous 7th fleet to participate. China and USA have always kept the supply lines running.

However, now India is a lot more important to both China and USA. Notwithstanding previous relationship with Pakistan, it is a source of continuous economic strength to both countries.

Apart from economic factors, Pakistan remains exposed to the whole world with the role that it is playing in global terrorism. Jihadi factories have produced terrorists who have waged war against not just India but also USA, China, UK, Spain, etc. The claims of ‘we don’t know anything’ have not gone favourably with anyone. USA is striking at will in NWFP and US agents are all over Pakistan.

Pakistani Military is also in no condition to fight. It is heavily deployed in the Afghan border. Majority of Pakistani Army have soldiers that are of Pathan and Baluch origin. They are strongly against Pakistani Army’s operations in Balochistan and Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). Morale of the fighting forces is extremely weak. In Pakistani Army, XI Corps and XII Corps comprise mostly of Baluchs and Pathans, and are expected to break quickly.

Entire operations of Army are now highly corrupted. There are many businesses controlled by the Army. War is least of the focus.

Modern wars are fought on ‘oil’. Pakistan has not learnt from Kargil debacle, where it had fuel only for a week if a full-scale war broke out. India has built a stockpile of oil and is located in operational areas.

Entire focus of Pakistani Army was to train insurgents. This can help a little in actual war. Al-Khalid Tank or MBT 2000 that is jointly developed by China and Pakistan has not been induced fully. Type 88 tank, that is the mainstay, is over 30 years old in technology. It lacks the agility and firepower of T-90 or Arjun tanks of India. M113 and M109 armoured carriers are based on a 50 year old model.

Main Pakistani cities such as Lahore, Islamabad, etc. are well within the striking distance of Indian forces. Once Indian Army is deployed, Pakistani Army will be more focused on defending. It has only one Strike Corps, Mangla Corps based out of PoK that is also expected to be put in a defensive role.

Pakistani missiles that have been demonstrated in media are imported from North Korea as an exchange to nuclear technology. The source for missiles has dried-up. China has been reluctant to share its missiles. While Pakistan officially claims that it has over 20,000 missiles, the real number is less than 1/10th.

Nuclear stockpile of Pakistan is totally in US control. It will be difficult to exercise the nuclear option without the consent of USA, which is very unlikely.

Pakistan Air Force has no answer to advanced Indian fighters such as Sukhoi-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 that are built with modern avionics and assault systems. The battle for air supremacy will be one way.

Pakistani Navy has many old ships that were purchased through a non-transparent mechanism and what is deployed is, at times, complete junk. Pakistan has claimed to induct few indigenously build submarines with French assistance. It also does not have an aircraft carrier.

In all, if a full-scale war breaks, Pakistan is doomed.

Myra,

while reading from the comments posted on your blog, it appears people are creating hate against each other.

The objective of creating a separate land called Pakistan for Muslims was to make it a progressive, safe, secure, civilised and freedom oriented society– The true dream of Mr. Jinnah a very intelligent man and he did an honest attempt but unfortunately after creation of Pakistan, the people who grabbed the power has diverted their focus on Kashmir- as they thought the area can be grabbed easily due to its dominant Muslim population
however india to certain extent not allow it to happen. During the last 60 years although pakistan never allowed genuinely any democratic govt. to rule the country (the objective got defeated here). Military comparison with its larger neighbour india was always in mind hence to ensure military supremacy, the heads of PAkistan has always gone to any extent and which has allowed foreign powers like US and China used them to achieve their own objectives. China is a cleaver country and they wouldn’t by free lunch for any one.

My objective here is not write -ve things about pakistan because most of the Pakistanis are themselves victim of the grave digged by their leaders and military.

Pakistanis mainly punjabis and sindhis are intelligent race and can easily compared with indians in all aspects and until 70\’s pakistan did equal progress as india did however since the separation of Bangla desh has made them desperate to do equal damage to India and in the wake of getting more arms they supported Americans- the biggest mistake they did and the key reason for current state of pakistan.

on the height of Afgan war approx 4 million afgan came to take refuge in pakistan which

took pakistan few years back economically and arms started freely available in the country.

US and Pakistani rulers during the height of afgan war exploited Islam a beautiful religion as a tool to fight out Russians and that has allowed funding to run various madressas to create militants and thus thousands of poor guys diverted to meet few goals of pakistani military. After afgan war US disowned all those guys after using them which eventually became overnight jobless. Pakistan had pushed them to Afganistan as taliban to save themselves else it would have eaten them as well. during all those years of taliban, all uncivilized people came together either from Palestine or yemen or egypt or from pakistan\’s side of kashmir ( i assume kashmiri\’s from indian side of never joined them as even today chief of Hizbul mujahiddin syed sallahudin maintains that they are not connected to rest of millitants\”) and joined hands to fight western society as Palestine never got justice. they took advantage and sympathy from civilised people of pakistan and other countries in the name of religion or atrocities in Palestine. But during the overall process pakistan went back many years and unfortunately the objectives for which the country got created is largely defected. Instead of being compared with another progressive muslim state like malaysia or dubai it is now being dubbed as another Afganistan in making. most of the civilised people of pakistan is either leaving the country or looking for an oppertunity to go out due to fear of security. They have lost the faith they country will back on track which is very sad even though i am indian I want to see pakistan as growth and people oriented civilised soceity. NO indian should dream of unstable or broken pakistan because most of the pakistanis are either good guys or are themselves victim of their governments are if they are broken India will became another pakistan with refugee camp all around at the same time pakistani people should rather fighting india should introspect that why they left behind india since 70\’s and should focus more on growth of their country rather than focusing what RSS and BJP does in india — secular people in india are enough to take care of those guys. Pakistani should focus more on how to make afganistan stable so that they can get rid of 4 million afganis and must dismantle those outfits which supports militancy and the same time the rest of the world including india should support pakistan to be a better society and all those job less militant get occupied remember empty mind is davils home. China the so called friend of pak should help them to stand on their own on economic front. I wonder why china always supplied arms and never the expertise of growning economically
at faster pace as how they did and at last pakistani should note that no body will take interest to build your home when you yourself are not interested. My heart goes out to poor pakistanis who got trapped between military and millitants are struggling to live within true principles of islam.

Hope allah give sense to awam of pakistan and hope good relations will prevail between two countries

Posted by Dharmesh | Report as abusive

Truthseeker
I am surprised at your super ignorance.
Lets start with the Air Force, PAF is patrolling the skies with F-7P interceptors over Rawalpindi/Islamabad and Lahore at around 3 PM daily with all civilian airports to hold commercial flights while PAF fighter do runs of the city and surrounding airspace. The Army chief has already stated Pakistan will respond within minutes in case of an Indian attack, which is an indication of operational preparadeness of Pakistan armed forces.
Although Pakistan Army is operating against Taliban in the western border, you must be ready for surprises as the Taliban leader gave a statement that in case of conflict with India they will team up with Pakistan Army and ready to fight with India. Paksitan Army has the capacity to mobilize its forces and mark the entire border with defensive positions. Air srtikes to soften up the targets and Pak Army divions and brigades can penetrate in Rajhastan and Punjab deep into Indian territory with close air support by PAF.
THe IAF Su-30s have a large airframe and low manouverability and F-16 fighting falcons have technological edge over them. The Pakistan Navy is equipped with Agosta French submarines and pose a significant threat to any Indian war ships approaching the Pakistani coast to conduct a naval blockade of Karachi. Above all, there is always a threat of nuclear retaliation. Last but not the least the entire Pakistan nation, leadership and armed forces are united and committed to give a befitting reply to India. Sonia Gandhi is better off making election stunt statement, if real war break out India will be in serious trouble.
Pakistani missile program is superior to India. With long range ballistic missiles Indian cities are well within striking distance.

It will be much better if India and Pakistan cooperate rather than fight. If even then fight is inevitable, then I said in the begining of my post, PAF jets are already conducting exercises and flexing their muscles. Lets see IF ANY ONE DARES TO MESS WITH THEM !!!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

It sounds easy to denounce and criticize China’s moves, but I think Pakistanis in favor of dissolving the ties need to think more realistically. Here’s why:

1. China still supports Pakistan big time: so what? it disappointed over the currency, although is still giving a smaller loan. But understand that China is also giving Pakistan a lot of nuclear information which they probably wouldn’t pass on to the rest of the world. Furthermore, Chinese industry has also invested heavily in Pakistan, and they wouldn’t foolishly cut off Pakistan just because “the world is changing”. These investments are also to Pakistan’s benefit as well.

2. It would look bad if they didn’t block the charity, especially with the western media having a field day about coloring Pakistan as an “evil nation” and failed state out to kill the rest of the world. BS! But its difficult to fight the spin machine that the West has built up, especially on issues where the West has been able to color the light against Pakistan. China has little option but to go against these types of resolutions as the fallout would hurt China AND Pakistan. Again, a bit of cold hearted pragmatism, but not meant as a slight in the long term. The alternative is that nations declare Pakistan and China supporters of terrorists and attempt to isolate and destroy both of them even more now than before. In this current way, China can still privately assist Pakistan.

3. Terrorism is a concern for China too, and concerns about Uighurs training in Pakistan – have they really been addressed? If it can happen in India, what’s the guarantee it can’t happen in China? So perhaps this slight about banning JuD is just a minor nudge from the Chinese to remind Pakistan that friendship doesn’t mean that one nation will overlook the other’s issues if those issues will threaten that nation.

All in all, its difficult for China to always stand by Pakistan, although they’ve shown that they really do try. And these bad times will show that.

Posted by oh dear | Report as abusive

For everyone who criticize Pakistan.

I think westerns and especially Indians are infected with Pakistanfobia and they always try to use Pakistan name when they are not able to defend their citizens from these types of terror attacks.

Everyone hates terrorism and we Pakistanis are against any type of attack on everywhere and we are also facing terrorism in our own country.

I don’t trust in India because they are the one who always worked against Pakistan, on the time when Bangladesh separated from Pakistan the prime minister of India indra gandhi said we revenge for our 1000 years.

What is 1000 years, this is the total time of Muslims rule in India and we gave same rights to Hindus as Muslims but after 1000 years on 1971 one Hindu lady say revenge it means they are teaching there children’s against Islam and Muslims and this is called terrorism.

I know there are problems in Pakistan in these days and we are facing and we are in front fighting these elements but on return we are getting these type of fully confused propagandas from Indian.

Let’s come to the mumbai attack,
Today Interpol chief visited Pakistan and said there is not evidence sharing from India with us and Pakistan is working with us more than any other country.
Now if there is evidence share with Interpol and transfer to Pakistan Government to have reaction on it and if you are not giving us evidence it means there is nothing on their hand but on blaming on Pakistan.

Same thing came from UN and they said Pakistan is acting very seriously with investigation and we are satisfied.

If India thinks we will kill OR arrest our peoples without any evidence or any proof then sorry we can’t & If this is the price of the friendship with India then we are happy being enemy.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

Interesting posts. Most of them nothing to do with the original article, alas; and so many of them over the top in emotion and vituperation. Why not stick to the point?

Let’s calm down, shall we?

Mr(or Ms) Vijai has some good points that are worth further discussion. He/she is obviously a person of liberal tendency and international instinct.

China is entirely pragmatic. It is no longer ideologically in thrall to the appalling Cultural Revolution dogma of Mao, or even to the more extensive views of the late great Deng. The PRC is looking forward.

For China has ever been a forward-thinking power. Its governments, from ancient times, have looked to the long term — in centuries and even millenia.

Politicians in democracies count “long-term” in the lengths of time for which they can be elected to exercise power. In China, political leaders are just as morally (and sometimes financially) corrupt as their western counterparts ; but they do have the ability to look far — very far — ahead in terms of national interest.

Remember what Napoleon said when he was asked what the most important thing might be, internationally, in the future? (This was 200 years ago.) He predicted and advised : “Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world.”

China will continue to back Pakistan; and the price will be economic rather than political. Up and down will go the balance of influence and subservience, according to Beijing’s reading of the winds. But the PRC isn’t going to ditch Pakistan.

Washington doesn’t realise this, in its immature approach to Pakistan’s affairs, because the Bush administration has ignored advice and reports from its dedicated and highly professional foreign service diplomats. (Let’s hope that some of the really good people will be resurrected, after years in limbo.)

China and Pakistan will remain very close, just as long as that condition suits China.

And that is probably going to be a long time.

A veritable age in Washington terms.

Posted by Brian Cloughley | Report as abusive

Myra,
I think people are much concentrating on War / Terror / Deaths etc. so I would like my friends here even to consider the Economic, Business, and such relationships as well because the War would end up but the economic dependencies will never, Let’s not forget Japan for such instance, despite US bombing today US Markets are dependent on Japanese products.

Therefore to start with:

Good article to articulate the relationships of South-Asian countries, I quote South-Asian countries and not specific to any regions within.

– Old one but there is much information: http://pakistantimes.net/2003/11/30/gues t2.htm

– New one but much relates to the above old one:
http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID= 24402

– A recent ones
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2008-0 1/14/content_6390414.htm
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/artic lePrint.aspx?ID=2983

Please, I urge to ease tensions of War such climate, I guess if China and India has border disputes and yet they are able to do Business that benefits each other, then why not Pakistan too show interest in such outcomes with India.

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

Hi Vijay: You are still keeping the flag flying high on wanting an authoritative state, are’nt you? :)

As I said in a previous post a few weeks ago, my problem with totalitarianism is not that it is less decisive or less skillful than a democracy at keeping India from breaking apart. It is that if we cannot keep corruption away from a democratic framework then we surely cannot keep a dictator from being uncorrupt either. When man becomes the measure of all things, you can bet that it will be a few men at the top who will be that measure, and the rest will be confined to the ash heap. All dictatorships, benevolent or otherwise, that I have seen so far have been instances of this to some degree or other.

There is a line of thinking in South East Asian and East Asian countries along the lines you mention. This is the subject of a fascinating book named ‘Can Asians Think’ (search Amazon) which asks why Asian countries like India and China that until the 17th century led the world in wealth and power declined so rapidly. The author asks if democracy is feasible at all in the Asian context, with our myriad worldviews, traditions, et al.

I have objections to these ideas but why make some great points.

Brian- Dunno what you mean by liberal tendencies. I’m an Indian, and I believe that our country’s interests are served by many options, including military action if required and useful. I’m also a pretty orthodox Christian who has been treated well by my country, which gives me a unique vantage point and a skeptical view of non-Indian criticisms of Indian society- although I remain seriously concerned about pockets within India that resort to violence against minorities. These of course are not simply societal struggles, but calculated mass movements which bode ill for us as Indians.

Posted by Vijai | Report as abusive

Things are seldom what they seem…
Both the USA and China still consider Pakistan as a vital ally. For the US it is Afghanistan and the wider Muslim world. For China it is many things: help with separatists in Xinqiang, the port of Gwadar facilities which could bring Mideast oil to China without much ship movement, and the close relationship between the PLA and Pakistan military. If Pakistan plays its cards right and terrorism is brought under control, there could be a surge of economic activity in Pakistan such that the world hasn’t seen since the Chief Tiger, China, began roaring its head upward.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Vijay,

The point of the post remains valid that china/Pakistan are going to strengthen their relationship to the extent that Pakis don’t become a foe to them.I do not know when pakistan had the whole of Afghanistan in their hand why did they allow Alqaeda & messed afghanistan.If the afghanis had been in their pocket & slowly annexed them into their country they would have been equally stronger when perhaps china could have noticed their influence.China may perhaps enter into Afghanistan & will start collaborating with them for their safety & security.Subsequently it will be bangladesh & then the entire Asia falls into their lap. China will sit back enjoy & allow all others including USA to make sure Afghan issue never gets sorted.If i am a chinese you can never be proud for the God send opportunity they got by the mumbai attack proving to the whole world India is nothing beyond empty boast,it has only quantity of 1.2 Billion people but no qualitative aspects in anything.

Now in respect of a dictatorial regime, my contention is India’s purpose or goal is a fast paced elimination of backwardness & arming its citizens with quality education.Since 40% of our electorate is really illiterate there is less than likelihood that politics would be pursued for narrow interest than for country interest. India could win wars ( economic,social,political) only when it has a strong leadership.The presidential model in the US perhaps gives coherence where as an executive he can drive changes while the congress takes the legislative role to get the checks & balances for authoritarianism.The birth of coalition politics is to me the single most cause for india’s detoriation.

The rise of china is really stupendous since they could not have achieved all their current glories if for a regime which was consistent in its policies & not vacillating on their strategic goals.Anyway my optimism for this sub continent is lot more gloomier than before. It is simply hard to digest that masterminds of these attacks remain at large & a big blot to international justice.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

CHINA REJECT INDIANS CLAIM FOR PAKISTAN INVOLVEMENT AND ASK FOR EVIDENCES:
Press Trust of India reporting from Beijing quoted Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Qin Gang as urging India and Pakistan to maintain calm and to work together to investigate the “cause” of the terror attack on Mumbai and identify its mastermind.

“We hope to see the improvement of Indian-Pakistani relations,” the spokesperson told a regular press conference. He was responding to questions on the tense South Asian situation after last month’s terror attacks in Mumbai.

The identity of the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks “awaited further investigation by concerned countries,” the spokesperson said, indicating, according to PTI, that Beijing was still unsure about New Delhi’s assertion that all the 10 attackers were Pakistanis.

source: http://www.dawn.com

CHINA IS AND WILL REMAIN FRIEND TO PAKISTAN – indian efforts goes in vain.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

I don’t know why the world and specially India has problems with Pak-China friendship. our friendship with china is based on people to people relations + government to government relation and we protect each others interest and this is something you can say a true friendship.

We trust China and they trust on us and trust is everything for true friendship and we are proud on china friendship.

we are in peace talk with India from 2002 and the total period is 6 years, we try to do everything we can to have good friendship with India but what happened after Mumbai attack they start blaming within 30 minutes on us and there media is still trying to prove that these peoples are from ISI and links with our agencies.

India went to the UN without giving us evidence and without any respect to peace talks and they try to damage Pakistan’s image on the world. Until now there is no evidence said by UN, INTERPOL, FBI and all other countries.

UN passed the resolution to ban some peoples and we act on the same time and they are under arrest by our police and agencies, now this is the time to provide us the evidence and if the evidence is enough we will punish them under the local laws and we will have joint investigation with India to satisfy them and to satisfy the world.

Pakistan always try to solve the problems with peace talks but India went to the UN and now this is our turn to recall UN resolution 91 on Kashmir which is already passed by UN, let’s see how the world act on this issue.

See the link,
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UN_Securit y_Council_Resolution_91

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

Peace,

By Manipulating this politics national or international are you suggesting that the masterminds who killed innocent people in the coldest fashion should escape from law. By narrowly trying bringing a nationality issue you are allowing criminals to flourish, which to me is the first concern of any individual.

An attack on india can also revolve back on a attack on you so the system becomes more vicious & the world more unsafe.You got to understand the frankenstein monster which got created is politics of superpower. It was Russia, USA & Now China.The citizens who have been the worse affected are Afghanistan, Pakistan & India in that order & not citizens in those superpower.

Atleast change your ID from peace since you don’t seem to mind bloods spilt of our 3 countries & we have come closer to getting each other eliminated by Nukes.For sake of 20 criminals do you think there exists a cause for war, India is saying you kill them & be sincere. After parliament attack nothing happened now atleast minds like you should support in eliminating the master minds then you can push agenda of change & reform which benefits common people in the three countries.

It is utter foolishness to think Indians are dumb & less intelligent as much as it is foolishness of indians to think a difficult state in pakistan gives them peace or so much for pakistan to think a hardline government is better than a liberal government in afghaistan.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

It would certainly enhance the debate here on the Pakistan-China relationship if some Chinese commenters gave some input.

To Myra MacDonald: Is it possible to interface this article with a Chinese site in tandem with this site?

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

@Alethia,
Chinese Government has banned blogs -:) People are so afraid to speak. However if Myra asks some Chinese settled down abroad they are least bothered cos as I know them closely they think about themselves and their near and dear ones in the families once they are away from homeland. Moreover people in Hong Kong don’t like Mainland Chinese, they still treat Mainland Chinese are illiterates and uneducated.
My colleagues feel very very happy to be away from China and away from the clusters of Communist party. However they still have hopes to return back when China too will see Democracy.
This is something interests me, China and Democracy, wouldn’t the World witness another Soviet sort of nation?

Myra,
Please look into what Alethia told, it’s good we find some Chinese similar to Umair for the comment count to increase -:)

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

Despite the best efforts of spinemeisters on behalf of Pakistan here, the TRUTH OF THE MATTER is a country with no educational or technological infrastructure, famous world over as a sponsor of terrorism is of no use to any one including China and Saudi Arabia.

Also, every time China and Saudi Arabia bail out Pakistan, the bargaining power of Pak declines the subsequent time.

A few years ago Saudi King was the chief guest at India’s Republic day parade. There are Indian Muslim secretaries and Ambassadors in its foreign service who convey how much terrorist activities Pakistan is indulging in India and how it undermines the situation of the Indian Muslims. Every knows Pakistan is a jihadi terrorist state, and their work is not that hard!!!

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000 200812241422.htm

India to seek Saudi help to pressurise Pak on terrorism
New Delhi (IANS): India will seek Saudi Arabia’s support in putting pressure on Pakistan to act against terror outfits when Saudi foreign minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal comes here on a day-long visit Friday.

Since one-third of the entire world’s poor live in India, India takes the prize in the category of the world’s largest failed state. All other statistics pale in comparison to India’s singular “achievement” in poverty. And now Indians have embarked on cyber-terrorism, initiating their campaign with none other than the World Bank!

India has concealed evidence from the Interpol about the exact whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim, providing Interpol with a fictitous address instead, and even concealed evidence about the Bombay incident from Interpol. All this concealment makes one wonder if anything India claims is true?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

To Truth Seeker:

Your idea, that Pakistan has no educational or technological infrastructure and that all it is good for is being a terrorist state, is hogwash.

I am an American who has traveled extensively around the world including to Pakistan and have seen the sights and institutions there which have made it a great country.

I’ll give you some examples.

In Lahore, I have visited Punjab University, Kinnard College and Government college. All outstanding institutions og higher learning.

I have visited some outstanding religious sites: the Swami Narayan Hindu Temple in Karachi, Dera Sahib Sikh Gurdwara in Lahore, several Christian churches and the Badshahi Mosque in Lahore. All fully-functioning Hindu, Sikh, Christian and Muslim houses of worship.

There is a six-lane motorway connecting the major Pakistani cities spanning over 600 miles which is akin to the US’s New York State Thruway, only better.

I have visited several hydro-electric sites on the major rivers of Pakistan which are engineering marvels.

Please do not paint Pakistan as an intolerant, know-nothing backwater.
An informed public is going to challenge you.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Basically Pakistan is continuing its covert terror war on India. Mumbai is the latest. Although the Pak army thought it is digging a hole for India, and hurting Indian economy, it fell into the hole and is exposed 100000% as a terror sponsor. Ajmal Kasab turned out tbe the weak spot. Even after he has been caught alive, they are still in denial, and still think they can get away. Not this time.

Canceling cricket matches with Pakistan is a welcome step. India should deliberate whether it is worthwhile to have any trade or diplomatic links with a rogue country.

Revamping internal security and intelligence and isolating it from political interference should be a high priority action item. The right of hot pursuit is a recognized military principle that is considered equivalent to self defence. India should consider limited punitive air strikes based on accurate information of terrorist camps which are moved at frequent intervals to avoid detection. Pak economy is on life support from donor money. Naval blockade of Karachi is yet another option.

I must say, myself included, we are veering off from the subject of this article, which is the relationship between China and Pakistan.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

India has learnet well the lesson of ‘repeat a lie oft enough, and it can blur the line between the truth and becomes the truth itself’.

By constantly and loudly painting Pakistan as a terrorist state because there are some terrorists hiding in Pakistans North West border areas with Afghanistan, it wants to take advantage and hopes to break the back of the Pakistani nation, but such unplanned, and open lying has its own disasterous course for India. Recently the UN gave Pakistan Kudos for implementing UN sanctions on Jamat us Dawa, then the head of Interpol publically declaredin India slapping India in the face that India was refusing to share evidence with Pakistan or the Interpol and that Pakistan was completely willing to cooperate with the Interpol.

India needs a cover to hide behind while it kills Kashmiris and destroys their dream and wish to be free of India and to join Pakistan, thats what this is all about.

Indian security forces have killed over 60,000 Kashmiri civilians, just go to Human Rights Watch to check out what they say about the so called worlds largest democracy and how they practice democracy in Indian occupied Kashmir.

Pakistan will not and must not give up its rightful claim over Kashmir and no amount of crying and howling like hyenas will help Indians in the long run.

Posted by Tariq Shah | Report as abusive

@umair , peace.
Read Alethia’s posts. She(/he?) is a frequent poster @huffington post too. She brings good name to Pakistan.
On the other hand, Idiots like you….

Posted by jinnah | Report as abusive

Pakistan and China friendship is one of the best friendship example to the world.

India has problems with everyone in Asia,

India always criticize china

Indian fought 3 wars with Pakistan

India always says Bangladesh is sending terrorists to us

India created Tamil Tigers force in Srilanka to attack sirlilankan forces

India is doing economic black mailing to Maldev

This is how India doing with neighbors and Pakistan is the only one always faces them one on one because we are not scared from there weaken military power and we proved in Kargil with minimum usage of our military.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

China urges india to put evidences on the table, if any.
Pakistan is a peace loving nation, but the foreign involvement is creating disturbance in Pakistan.
source “The observent”.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

@Jinnah – you don’t even feel showing your identity becasue you belong to super liars.
AND don’t call us idiots we are not indian.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Seems I am first Chinese to past here…..

I did a lot study about Chinese dipomacy recent years, at the same time…Chna government has changed it’s policy over time in past 10 years. But there is one thing which never change: True friendship with Pakistan! I think the friendship is people-to-people..even there is no political or economic benifit, I will still think Pakistanian is our best friend. If let me list the world friend of China, definitely Pak is No.1, I think Most chinese people share this point with me as we will never forgot friends who had ever helped us.

Nowadays the interest is top thing for China, as it is for other countries, we learnt this from US, China had tried it’s best to resolve historic issue with Japan, Korean and other Asian countries and get more and more respect and regional benifit, China also have settled down the border issue with Russia….I think the next step is to do it with India…I really hope one day China and India could sit down together to find a long-term sulotion to border issues…

But deeply there is no trust for Chinese to India..even one day there is no confront on border…it is still difficult to get Chinese to trust Indian..Vise versa.

Personally I hope Pak and Indian can build friendship even it seems impossible…but if one day, India threat Pak, China is always on Pak’s side, for any cost!

Posted by Jason W | Report as abusive

I saw a past said there was no muslins in China..I have to say it is not correct.

There were 9,816,802 muslims living in China according to census in 2002. Muslims migrated into China since Mongo Empire times

Posted by Jason W | Report as abusive

Let’s get back to business please?
If China is a best ally of Pakistan, then why didn’t china helped Pakistan in it’s economic crisis?
I think optimistically China knows Pakistan needs very well, it’s nothing by Pakistan’s lust for Missiles and Armors.
However it’s not a big deal for China to push all those obsolete technologies to Pakistan to protect itself from Xinjiang Uyghur separatist activities by helping Pakistan so that the Islam Terrorists would not get inside China’s Territory.
Pakistan, in other words understands this as a Friendship. Sorry guys, you have shown you sentimental weakness to Chinese and they are exploiting you.

Long live Sino-Pak relationship.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive

I was happy reading a comment from our Chinese brother. And the truth is this….Pakistan and China’s relations go beyong GOvernment level…They are between people and have a trust that is lacking in every other relation with any country. I would definitely say that Chinese are our best friends. They have invested in pakistan so much and continue doing so, they know that Pakistan will support China as a regional power and not India… in the words of the great Mao tze tung, our frienship is deeper than the oceans and higher than the Himalayas…and this is the truth, no matter how much it gives sleepless nights to India, Israel and the US

Posted by Faroha | Report as abusive

Dear Indian,

First of all we don’t need any suggestions from you peoples, we know who is our friend and who in not.

You should work on your own country to stop more than 15 separatist move fighting for their rights & Indian government is losing control on some states.

In Asia no one believes in India because you peoples have double standard policy for everyone and you are not sincere with your own peoples.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

The Chinese do not have access to this message board. THe chinese govt fears that some free thinking chinese may speak not so good about china. expose strength/weakness. The lone chinese friend is some one from outside china !?

Posted by Amar | Report as abusive

Chinese and in this blog? Great.

Myra,
Can we trace an IP? lol

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

I can tell you that for free.
My ip address is 222.68.64.x/24

All chinese have access to those sites such as CCN,NYTIMES,BBC,etc..but normally do not access them for some reasons…first of all,Engilish is not our mother tougue, and secondly, we do not trust CNN._(

L0L

Posted by Jason W | Report as abusive

they may have access and they are dare not talk. Jason, watch your back. be careful!

Posted by Amar | Report as abusive

Amjad

<<<>>

We also donot need the same from you

<<<>>>

15 ??? Where from you got this No 15?? Do you only know to count upto 15? Why not 100 or 150 or 1000???

I know only 1- that is Kasmir sponsored by pakistan and ISI.

But i know Pakistan will be seperated in seperate states soon Sindh, Baluchistan and upper Kasmir (Pakistan occupied part).

<<>>>

We have not pleaded to anyone to believe us. We are not beggers and are not at all dependant like pakistanis who have to convince anybody and everybody around themselves with their lies and to beg their daily breads and everything.

Posted by debdina | Report as abusive

I am feeling sorry for the Indian media because of their lot of propaganda against Pakistan they didn’t prove anything and I enjoyed there funny videos and Ideas regarding to the attack.

Indian channels showed us the new way to convert serious incidents into cartoon movies and enjoy from them.

I will suggest Indian TV channel to convert them into cartoon channels other than news channels.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

:P what else can a Pakistani do? Watch Indian channels and pastime, when no money join Jihad and path to heaven.

61 years isn’t too less to live? and like this?

The time you guys have spent watching India, and thinking to compete India on Military etc. would have invested in a good way, you wouldn’t have begged IMF to save your face from being black listed country (status – CCC).

BEWARE One IAF(Israel) is taking over One PAF (Palestine)
next will be another IAF takes over another PAF. The nuclear you are much proud off, looks like you would have sold it to North Korea for food and money.

“Have you hear a story of Shepard and Wolf”… convert this to Pakistan and nuclear.

Posted by The Indian | Report as abusive

My Indian Friend,

Don’t live on fool’s paradise (India) and come back to the reality, if you feel Pakistani Nuclear power is nothing then why your whole military along with govt is scared from Pakistan. Your reaction proves what we are capable for.

Regarding to your theory IAF & PAF :) hahahha
Again I will say one thing don’t live on fool’s paradise and if u feel Israel is your friend then best of luck for your dark future.

Yes we took loan from IMF and this needs to be return along with profit to IMF, they are not helping us they are helping themselves.

I know kids loves to read studies like you Indians and u see the world with TV, BOOK & u live on fool’s paradise.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

To Amjad
Dont u pakistanis have any work other than watching indian movies, Indian channels and now Indian Blogs…
U say indian Channels are like cartoons.. well have u looked at ur channels ofcourse not. half the time they are off-air becuz some general has ordered them to go off-air or half time time they teach you how to make roti and biryani.

India is 7 times bigger than pakistan and also has Nuclear bombs hence we can destroy entire pakistan wheseas you can only hit a part of us and also we have missile defence system (which can hit ur missile as soon it takes of) Which u dont.

Only reason India is not attacking pakistan is bcuz India doesnt want pakistan to be another afganistan. you know wht happens when we take your army and democratic goverment out??? Pakistan gets into the hands of these Saudi-Sudani Mullahs which is indeed not good for any country.

Pakistan is on verge of Break up (financially, Politically and socially) so instead of wasting your time on replying to our posts go do something about it and put some brains in your people……

Posted by Imran Rehman | Report as abusive

To Imran,
My friend yes we love to see everything belongs to Indian because your movies show us those hot girls not satisfied by Indian mans, Indian channels because it looks like cartoon movies with Hindi dubbing, now Indian blogs because of idiots like you.

Yes India is 7 times bigger but Indian peoples are 7 times weaker then Pakistanis and we believe you Indian love to talk only but in real one rat can kill 10 Indians with one bite.

Please don’t explain your reason why u don’t attack us, do it and prove it. You are scared from our reaction because you know you have lost +500 Indian tanks on 1965 war by Pakistani soldiers and this is the world record of destroying tanks in any war and that time we were not nuclear power.

You are not capable to fight with freedom fighters movements in India from Asam,Punjab and others and you are thinking to fight with Pakistan, I know dreams are better for health but don’t see this dream because this will destroy you.

You know the big problem for your Hindu government is a Pakistan and you also know that you are not able to fight with us in real, go and watch some sunny devil films where you can defeat us and have good dreams.

By the way new Indian actresses are better than the older because they show off there ……

Please read your last post because there is one clue where you proved that you are Hindu, writing a Muslim name will not give you feeling like Muslim.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive

In my opinion, the reason chinese gov changes attitude is the change of the Paki gov. Now the new Paki gov is more friendly to USA and Brits. But the fundation of the Sino-Paki relationship is unbreakable — thats both of us don like Indians (lol) and the military tie is still strong.

Posted by ChinaV | Report as abusive