War clouds over South Asia

December 24, 2008

There is a strange dichotomy in Delhi at the moment. If you read the headlines or watch the news on television, India and Pakistan appear headed for confrontation – what form, what shape is obviously hard to tell but the rhetoric is getting more and more menacing each day.

Pakistan army chief General Ashfaq Kayani promised a matching response ‘within minutes” were the Indians to carry out precision strikes against camps of militants inside Pakistan, whom it blames for the Mumbai attacks.

And as if they were doing a dress rehearsal, Pakistan Air Force jets have been flying over Islamabad and Lahore for the past two days, prompting one blogger  to report that some people had called up media outlets asking if the Indian Air Force was on its way.

Indian army chief General Deepak Kapoor meanwhile went up to the freezing heights of Siachen, the world’s highest battlefield, to test operational preparedness.

And yet off the front pages, and on the street and in living rooms, it doesn’t seem like a nation preparing for war. Instead Delhi is in the full swing of the marriage season when the astrological stars are right and thousands upon thousands of young couples trailed by a veritable army of friends, families and neighbours get betrothed.

There are also the Christmas/New Year festivities where the conversation is not about the possibility of war but the economic meltdown that has spoiled everyone’s party, including India’s. To be sure, there is rage each time Mumbai is mentioned, and there are many who say “they will have to pay for this”. But war? No, that isn’t at the top of people’s minds yet.

So what’s really going on? Is the threat of a fourth India-Pakistan war real, not counting 1999 when India and Pakistan fought over the heights above Kargil on the Line of Control? Are the two countries inexorably moving toward conflict without their people realising it?

Or is this the Cold Start  doctrine  that strategists speak of, in which you don’t really mobilise troops and armour for weeks on a vast scale and then go to war like in ancient times, but instead go quickly into action from forward bases both in the air and on the ground for a short and sharp thrust ?  

Your guess is as good as mine, but in another two days it will be a month since the Mumbai attackers struck.  As far as India is concerned, that is time enough for Pakistan to have acted against the men and groups that it says are involved in attacks on India. Is there a clock ticking somewhere?

Comments

India has correctly escalated the price Pakistan pays for its terrorist activities. Huge exposure of Pak’s duplicity, media exposre, diplomatic offensives post Mumbai are all good developments.

There are rumors despite the current posturing (for domestic public consumption), Pak is getting ready for a huge climb down once all the details are released. Kargil redux.

 

First of all correction is needed in your mind and senses if they exist! The war hysteria was generated first by indian armed forces, media and other politicians. Have you forgotten all tall stories of destroying Pakistan, dismantling Pakistan and the recenet threat that india will take action no one else do any thing.

You know what i think is that since its inception india is very much afraid of Pakistan, Pakistan has always given reciprocal reply to india in all thier malicious intentions – Recent slap on indian face in front of whole world by Pakistan army chief General Ashfaq Kayani is only an example which has compel india to take U-turn and slip back all its tall claim – so far no evidence has been provided either to Pakistan or any one in the world which depict Pakistan involvement in mumbai attacks because it is self created. Have you forgotten the arrest two ATS officers in charge of thier involvement in these attacks.

I recommend that india should stop dreaming of imposing sanctions on Pakistan.

If india has dare, if any, then it should atleast stop doing trade with Pakistan.

One things more – do indians get “How to lie” course in thier academics?

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is plying the usual game. Saying that the government and its institutions are not responsible for Mumbai. But, the militants and radical factions which form a major part of Pakistan are responsible and so they can do nothing about it even if these groups operate from offices the center of their capital Islamabad. A war would not be the solution. Financial measures and cessation of all trade and diplomatic ties would be the best reply. But, the west seems to be again foolish to supply this rouge nation with arms and financial support for the ‘war against terror’ which inturn emanates from the soils of this god forsaken country.

Posted by Harisankar | Report as abusive
 

The very news of “All options are open” caused so panic in Pakistan that they went to deploy the troops at Border.
Well, a few more days if everyone drags the issue, Pakistan economy will come down to knees as it’s Reserve is just $3bn which is not sufficient to feed it’s people plus Military expenses.

Predictions are that Pakistan has to suffer severe expenses in the coming year due to economic downturn in the World. The reserves are not sufficient to continue the country in a long run. Also an IMF + War will prove more problems.

However all I don’t understand is why a nation must wage a war for 20 Terrorists? I mean isn’t is senseless that millions of peoples life at stake for few terrorists?

Posted by MJ | Report as abusive
 

Come on man. Stop dreaming.

Why would we even want to get involved with this mess called Pakistan? Look at the statements coming out of your great leaders – Nawaz Sharif / Your President – whatever his name is … leaders who are scared of their lives and are kowtowing to the army’s diktats.

India – Afraid of Pakistan??? :o Stop dreaming … try and ensure you have your daily bread before dreaming such fancy dreams. By the time you come out of your dreamland, your country might have either gone bankrupt or declared a terrorist state like Syria/Iran.

Posted by RH | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev
Its true Pakistan Air Force F-7P interceptors do a run each day around 3PM of the air space off Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore. Yesterday in Lahore people were seen coming out of their vehicles, cheer to the noise of roaring jets, standing on rooftops of their houses, the Civil aviation authority is instructed to keep the airspace clear of commercial flights while PAF jets are patrolling the air space. PAF is in a state of high alert as said by Army chief Gen. Kayani that Pakistan will retaliate with in minutes if there is an attack by India. As per India today nes story, BSF has reported Pakistan Army troop mobilization across the Rajhastan sector.This means Pakistan is signalling that an air strike by India will be met by retaliation and counter strike by Pakistan Air Force and also pressure on Rajhastan/Punjab sector by divisions and brigades of Pakistan Army.

To sum up, the situation is highly fragile and if things go out of hand the escalation will take place dramatically quick and result in severe conflict. Pakistan armed forces are leaving nothing to chance and already flexing their muscles. I predict, if pressure increases Pakistan will also conduct a short series of missile tests to display firepower. If American efforts to ease tension break down, then we can see things escalating real quick to boiling point. Surely coming weeks are going to be crucial to see which way this goes.

If India and Pakistan reach a point of no return, war will not be able to be averted as happened in 2001-02 stand-off. Time is running out, stakes are high.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pardon my borrowing a line from the 1st Clinton run, but it is indeed:

THE KASHMIR PROBLEM STUPID!

The sooner India, the world’s biggest democracy, shakes off it’s positive allergy to discussing this democratic issue (remember the democratically held Kashmiri plebisite?) the sooner the that WHOLE region and by extension, the West can feel safer. Cosmetic CBM’s with the real hope that the issue will be swept under the rug by the passage of time are a waste of time and money. HELLO???? Indian friends, is your government listening?

Posted by N. Javed | Report as abusive
 

Today its in headlines that an indian terrorist caught from Lahore who was involved in the recent car bomb in Lahore.Good news that indian terrorism is exposed, also they need to expose the indian terrorists operating against Pakistan and are surely involved in blasts in Pakistan prior to mumbai incident.

 

Indian politicians need to calm down and tell their people the truth that India’s chickens have come home to roost. This wasn’t India’s 9/11 this was India’s Oklahoma City. India needs to realize that terrorism of all forms need to be condemned and that they should stop state terrorism in Kashmir and let the people decide their future according to the UN resolutions. If India has so much to offer I’m sure the people of Kashmir will side with them. India blames ISI, but so far RAW hasn’t come under the microscope. Where isn’t RAW involved? India likes to keep all its neighbors unstable so that it can maintain a monopoly. Pakistanis have legitimate reasons not to trust India. After all India stabbed us in the back when we had internal violence in E. Pakistan. I’m surprised that today India says Pakistan can’t be trusted. It’s your own guilt that scares you from trusting Pakistan or any of your neighbors. Remember your Indian PM Gandhi being slapped by a Sri Lankan soldier? President Elect Barack Obama is on to India and soon India would have to quit its double game and stop terrorism in Kashmir.

Posted by Khan | Report as abusive
 

History,
If you look back over the course of history, you will realize that India has attacked Pakistan 3 times without a warning. Failure has been India’s companion in those 3 attempts. In simple terms, India FAILED. Now India is interested and boasting of an attack on Pakistan “With” a warning. If India couldn’t succeed while attempting surprise attacks on Pakistan, what makes you think they will succeed when all of the world is watching.

Reality,
India is not foolish enough to attack Pakistan. As former President Musharaff stated, in so many words, we didn’t not develop our defense system so it could sit idle on display for the world, we intend to use it if we are threatened. Pakistan is at the edge and their backs are against the wall. They are in a very dangerous state.

India’s threats of attack are beneficial for Pakistan because this has united the divided factions in Pakistan by giving them the sense of Nationalism they had lacked for the past 20-30 years. India should provide evidence before digging itself into a deeper hole.

By the way, doesn’t it seem odd that India’s anti-terror chief was one of the first people to be gunned down? The same anti-terror chief that helped convict and jail an Indian Colonel for master-minding the genocide of many Muslims in Gujraat. The same colonel whose affiliated with a Hindu terrorist group. Oh but nobody is mentioning that. We all know that this attack was planned by India, you don’t have to be political scientist to figure this one out.

Let us all pray that India comes to its senses and walks away from these shameful claims. It would be sad to see people die for no good reason.

 

I think the motives and the game plan is clear.

There will be no war nuclear or otherwise!!! Some indian leaders and think tanks are the sharpest and the most educated lot. Pakistani leaders are not directing this game and merely firefighting at this time.

At the end of this possibly lengthy episode, pakistan would have spent a lot more than it can afford on defense preparedness.

Diplomatic and econimic pressure will force a compromise from thier side which will cause a public humiliation and you can expect sometime shortly after that a possible military coup/ breakdown of the government and further escalation of various separatist & radical movements in pakistan.

More than 170 people died in the mumbai attacks but the price pakistan will pay will be much more.

Posted by belligerent | Report as abusive
 

This message is 4 the buffoon who claims to be Indian and then Pakistani and goes by the moniker “Peace”

As Pakistan whips itself into frenzy of having war with India, the real snake’s head is emerging. This is the guy who actually runs a country called Pakistan. And he is Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

There is a car blast and the infamous ISI manages to piece togather everything and capture the person involved within 12 hours. What an amazing feat. They must think the world was created yesterday.

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

The problem is more ideological. Pak is a society deeply controlled by its armed forces. Pak is a society which was built as an antithesis to the idea of India. Pak is a country with deep economical problems. Pak is a country without core democratic principles, with almost 1 dictatorship once in a decade or so.

And yet the common man in Pak is not protesting??
This is because they are always kept in fear that a stronger bigger India will overrun them, if they do not live nicely accepting whatever is given to them.


And as always the romanticism between the Pak society (the victim) and its fear of India (the villain) and Pak Army (the hero) being the Saviour continues with school boy presentation of power like
- Flying few sorties over few cities
- Pak General saying in media we can respond in minutes
- Media selling itself like hot pancakes… creating theories and rewriting history and of course feeding into the fear
- …

All this and the common man in Pak, stays in fear.

Posted by RP | Report as abusive
 

What every body saying about Pakistan/India relations and problems is no meaning, the whole world knows about Kashmir issue, also there is UN resolution pending since 1949 for implementation. Without giving Kashmir to Pakistan no one can solve 61 years on going conflict.

Posted by Al Baloushi | Report as abusive
 

Dear AsliJat, this we learned from you, after few hours of Bomnay attack, Indian have caught a Pakistani terrorist and on top of it, he came by sea from one thousand kilometer. At one hand great Indian navy sinking Somali pirates boats thousands of miles away, on other hand 10 terrorist come by a smail boat and destroy their mega city. Who must think the world was created yesterday.

Posted by Al Baloushi | Report as abusive
 

When 19 hijackers rammed airplanes into the World Trade center in New York on 911, nost of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, but I did’nt see the US blaming Saudi Arabia for the attacks.

So how can India hold Pakistan responsible for the acts of individuals?

There is no evidence of any official Pakistani involvement so all this barking by Indians is as old as the two nations shared history.

Indians are unsophisticated and immediately blame Pakistan for any terrorist strike in India, despite there being dozens of militant groups.

Secondly, Pakistan is a Nuclear weapons state, one that will use them first and has less to lose than India. So Indians need to take it easy and not make fools of themselves by cornering themselves with rhetoric their bodies cannot cash.

No one in Pakistan is afraid of India, in fact we want geniune peace with India, but it seems odd how immature the Indians act whenever these acts occur, Indians need to work with Pakistan and realize they cannot be immune to the desperate acts of individuals and loose canons.

Part of the problem is also of Indias making as it refuses to give freedom to 9 million Kashmiris who deserve the right to choose their future just like millions of people around the world.

Its unfair for a person in Delhi to want freedom for themselves and to quote Gandhi whenever their own freedoms are concerned, but then to deny the same fredom to millions of Kashmiris just because they dont want the people of Delhi to decide their future.

Sooner or later the world will realize and India will realize that it cannot keep millions of people bonded slaves forever.

Posted by Tariq Shah | Report as abusive
 

As I watch your blog on Reuters site about Pak and India and thought to comment on it, I don’t know how can I put the blood in the vein of words and make them alive in front of your eyes. But I read that the dangerous thing in the world is fear not a war, War is War and it destroy every thing, you can only control your first bullet then you don ‘t able to control the next bullet, it goes on till the End. Being a Pakistani as like other we want war with India, and we don’t want to live under the shadow of war.

Posted by Ibrahim | Report as abusive
 

@umair , Peace etc.
Come on guys! Wake up, before its too late.
This isn’t what Quaid dreamed of.

Posted by jinnah | Report as abusive
 

I’m surprised by the denials of many of my Pakistani countrymen and the anti-Indian attacks (and the anti-Pakistani attacks from some Indians). If India are conspirators, we probably top them. Didn’t we support the Taleban only to make sure there was no Indian influence in Afghanistan? Didn’t we support Pakistani militants in Kashmir, some of whom were army members? Let’s not kid ourselves.

The ISI has done damage to our country more than RAW could have imagined. From spying on opposition leaders, king-making in politics, allowing Lal Masjid to exist, reinforcing a Saudi ideology to recruit more young men as proxy fighters, recent abductions of Pakistani citizens which some are handed to the States,etc.

Peace, do u seriously believe our politicians are honest compared to the Indian politicians? Its sad when two countries have to compare not who’s telling the truth, but who’s the bigger liar.

History/Reality…India attacked the main body of Pakistan in 1965…but do u know why? Because of Operation Grand Slam in Kashmir. Look it up. As far as

KHAN, as far as 1971 is concerned…I believe India accomplished what they set out to do…the breakup of Pakistan. There was nothing to backstab. We didn’t have a peaceful relationship with them you think they wouldn’t jump at the opportunity? Because of the West’s arrogance and injustices towards the Bengalis which was disgustingly highlighted by the atrocities our army men committed there during the war. Some would say India’s intervention helped save more Bengali lives.

N.Javed…India has a Kashmir issue, so do we. However whatever is happening in the West of our country probably has nothing to do with Kashmir and is a BIGGER problem.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

These are diversionary tactics displayed by Pakistan, The whole world knows,India can sustain one or hundred bombs from Pakistan, but when india responds there will be no Pakistan. Period.

Posted by syed | Report as abusive
 

khayani is taking our country and its economy in the wrong direction. Mr.president and prime minister are acting like his puppets there was no need for troops deployment or air force high alert..when Indians didn’t make any moves..we should stop this nonsense in pakistan.. we and our leaders have a lot to learn from Indians..

Posted by jinnah | Report as abusive
 

Mr historyreality
if ATS chief or others connected have to be killed, they can do the same directly with out evidence (example arushi case) why they should kill americans and jews along with them. mumbai attack along with marriot hotel attack in pak were carried out by US with the help of lakshar e janghvi and lakshar e taiba to subtantiate its presence in afgan, to boost their soldairs there and to send more and more troops to afgan. ban on JUD, filling FIR in pak court are all going to be eyewash,FIR is not going to speak who gave the bomb who financed the attack etc.,

americans are spreading regionalism, religionism across the world to split all bigger countries and unipolar this world and rule it. the animosity or vengence every pakistani is having against India is also the hand work of US. how? by keeping the people uneducated and poor, talibanising the pakistan, destroying english medium schools in peshawar,educating only about wars with india and vengence.

india is a democratic country and even if pak considers all wars with india are genocide by india, whom the pak are going to prosecute.all of them are already dead. then why vengence and fell pray to the designs of amercans.

if war happens then advantage is only to the americans, they will be having market for defence products. we will be dying here.

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive
 

The whole world knows Pakistan is a terrorist country. This is all rubbish that they are asking proof of Pakistani existence in terror attacks. If the Pakistanis have the courage to speak the truth to themselves, they will know very well that ISI is nothing but a terrorist organization. The acts of Pakistanis have made muslims all over world, including India a suspect. Its time for Indian Muslims to abandon Islam preached by Pakistan and Arabs, instead we need a new religion named IndainMuslim who has nothing to do with cowards of Pakistan.
Pakistan is all blabbering all these years because of the arms and support they were getting from US and other foreign countries. But Pakistan should know well that India stands today, where it is, on its own capability.
Pakistan is bound to be doomed, if it does not realize its mental sickness soon.

Posted by Indian Muslim | Report as abusive
 

i dont know what goes into pakistan people mind.if some body grows and lead calm life it affects them.they does not want calm life.they want the unstablisation as their country .so they will enjoy with getting new recruits.there is old saying if you watch your neighbour house burning your house will also will burn later.

Posted by sathish | Report as abusive
 

Without doubt, many in the media on both sides, specially the electronic media, are playing a hugely negative role by constantly beating war drums.

I think it would be worthwhile to direct attention to what the Indian PM said two days ago. War is not the way to go. The hysteria being generated now serves only one limited purpose. To deflect attention from the original question – what is Pakistan going to do to control terrorists from using its territory to launch attacks outside Pakistan?

 

From day one since this inncident took place I have been keeping up to date with the news developments. I have always heard from diff sources, Pakistan saying they will co operate fully first to investigate who carried out the attacks and who was behind them. If there are any Pakistani nationals involved they will be arrested and prosecuted under Pakistani Law.

Now that is fair offer, no country will start arresting its own citizens without any evidence. Even to this day no evidence has been provided to Pakistan or the Interpol. Eventhe USA is saying Pakistan have cracked down. India will never be pleased even tho when India was building dams in Indian Occupoied Kashmir which is violation of the Indus Water Treaty, RAW involved in terrorism in Pakistan.

Even tho all Pakistani know that RAW is involved we still with patient were following through wiht the peace process. Howveer India always had a dream to have greater India and never accepted Pakistan and is involved in all terrorist activaties that hapen in PAKSITAN.
To all Indians plz grow up and dont talk about war, we are but if a war is imposed on us then let me tell Pakistani nation is ready for it. When we start to cur India to pieces dont start running to UN with ur tails between ur leg as you did when the bombing happen in Mumbai. I arrest my case want peace have peace want war have WAR!! Choice is your you war monging Indians!!!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive
 

Mumbai attacks have clearly exposed the Pak design of waging a low cost war against where Indian targets of importance are attacked by using the fedayeen bombers causing maximum colateral damage to life and property. Like an idiot, Pranab Mukherjee has raised unnecessary hysteria of keeping all options open, what are the options Mukherjee is talking about ? Do we really have any options ?Can Congress and its allies really afford war with Pakistan for fear of loosing minority votes? India’s reliance on international community and US in particular has failed to yield any desired result, in fact US is even scared of asking account of USD 10 billion given as aid to Pakistan during last years, knowing fully that major part of the aid has been used for purchase of hardwares and military equipments to fight India, indirectly US has equipped Pakistan to raise war bogey and fedayeen attacks against India. It is the time India should seriously think about foreign policy, who are our friends whom can we really rely at the time like this ?

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

ali

pak and its master US are experts in spreading terrorism. US along with pak are expert in using terrorism to its advantage. world already knows about it. USSR is a classic example. now no USSR. next your aim is india. that is why all baseless accusations mentioned here which pak and US is spreading across world. next will be china. after the world torn in to many pieces which pak and US are desiring to achieve through spreading terrorism, US can easilly rule it.

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive
 

Umair I think lots of people on both sides of the border will agree with your assessment that this is a tense time in South Asia and that the risk of things spinning out of control is very real.

As you note, the Mumbai attack has set off an India-Pakistan war of words backed by some muscle flexing.

Do you see a way out ? Having gone this far in assigning the blame for the Mumbai attacks to militants and controllers that it says were based in Pakistan it is obviously difficult for India to stand down and go back to business as usual, given the sense of outrage the attacks have provoked.
And equally, it seems unlikely that Pakistan can give in to India’s demands to hand over men New Delhi says are involved in violent acts in India and shut down groups blamed for those acts.
Do you think the two are hurtling down a cul-de-sac?

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive
 

venkat!!

I think you are not only very immature but someone who needs to make an appoinment with the local mental hospital. USA/PAK are fighting a war on terror not the other way around. It is your beloved India that spnsor terrorism ask you netas leaders why have they opned over dozen counsulates in afghanistan?

I ll tell you the answer to sponsor terror in Pakistan to destablise it. So go and get a life you moaning n war mongers.All you Indian know too well Pakistan is strong because people and the army are like one unit and even the taliban against you lot…Try a fight and dont give us numbers, numbers dont win you wars it is the spirit the moral and the cause and out cause will be just if India attacks.

A warning from people of PAKISTAN, co operate and work to gether or be ready to be on the recieving end!!!

Posted by ali | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has first to learn to be at peace with itself. The people of Pakistan never got a fighting chance at building a nation, being exploited by the a corrupt oligarchy of zamindars, the army and the elite who have ruled Pakistan as their personal fiefdom and eliminated whoever came in their way. Liaquat Ali Khan was only the beginning. Dictators have ruled the country for the major part of its existence, putting down rebellions with massive force, so much so that General Tikka Khan is still known as the “Bomber of Baluchistan”. The rape of Bangladesh is one more horrific example. Even when there was a democracy, the plunder of Pakistan continued unabated- the corruption of Benazir Bhutto and her coterie is too well documented.

Anytime the people of Pakistan showed signs of being restive, the rulers have been quick to bring up the threat of India next door and the Kashmir issue. the rulers have not been averse helping out their brethren in India. Remember the time when Rajiv Gandhi was beset with the HDW scandal? Zia-ul-Haq promptly mobilised his troops on the border, and in the din of the sword-rattling all Indians forgot this issue. He showed the that he was a real member of the same club that he had accused the Indian leaders who pleaded for mercy for Bhutto belonging to.

The only consolation is that one who rides the tiger usually ends up as a meal for it. The sad part is that the commoners of Pakistan have been paying the price for their rulers actions with untold suffering, internecine strife, poverty, crime.. I suppose no one bothers about the commoners anymore.

The problem with the peace process is that the ruling elite in Pakistan do not want peace with India or a solution to the Kashmir issue. Once these issues are resolved, the people of Pakistan might start asking questions. As far as there is an enemy at the door, the king is safe from his people. This also suits a lot of people in India. After all, they learned divide and rule from the same British masters.

Posted by Jayadevan | Report as abusive
 

I consider myself to be an admirer and friend of both India and Pakistan. But sometimes I find myself defending Pakistan because it has been the “underdog” in some of the situations.

There is no doubt in my mind that the people of Pakistan are highly grieved and shocked by the barbarous attack which took place against innocent civilians in Mumbai.
Just like the rest of the world they would like to show their sense of sorrow for the victims.

But in literally hours after the attacks began, the media and government in India began to pour blame on
the Pakistan government and its people for the attack.
Rather than being able to express their heartfelt grief for the victims, the Pakistani government and people instead had to begin defending themselves against barrages of verbal attacks from accross its borders.

How did such a situation arise?
Even if the attackers were from Pakistan, why did India lump these terrorists together with the Pakistani nation and people when they themselves have also been the victims of these terrorists?
If British India was never partitioned into two countries in 1947, does the present government of India think it could do any better in dealing with terrorists emanating from the wild and woolly North West Frontier?
An area that for centuries nobody could control?
Will India continue to hide its head in the sand and say that there is no dispute in Kashmir and the case is closed? With human rights abuses occurring there every day, 400,000 troops in Kashmir and no end of conflict in sight?
I will leave the answers to these questions up for debate to the good commenters on this site and to the acumen of the good author.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

A majority of the Indian and Pakistani Public dont want a war but i guess the Pakistani Army, the ISI & the Extremists want a war with india, this is obvious by the Troop movements to the International Border with India and the replacement of the Border Security with the Real Time Army and Special Security Guards of Pakistan. Now the Indian Government is seriously thinking of deploying their Army Might on the Border as well, this time it is very different, it wont be like the Operation Parakram, this time due the extreme Public Anger in India, once the Troop movement is done to counter the present Pakistani Buildup in the Border, the Indians wont step back without Pakistan shutting down the Terrorist Infrastructure and the Militant Camps in the Eastern Border and POK. This is a very fearful scenario and thanks to Mr.Khayani who is the one who is calling the shots in Pakistan, who has made this possible. If a War happens this time, it might be none like the Indians or the Pakistani’s have seen before because from ever i hear it is going to be in which India will be hurt, hurt real bad but Pakistan will be totally devastated and this they are bringing upon themselves. The Society and the Pakistani Elite should wake up and make their voice heard and tell a firm NO to Extremism and work towards real time peace with India and the whole world before Pakistan becomes a real time Terroristan.

 

At this moment I can only feel sorry for Pakistan and its civil society for the state being a failed nation. It can be easily comparedwith Somalia, Congo and othert tin pot regime. Rule of the land is controled mostly by Army and what ever is left by the terorrist. The country is getting more in to trouble because lack of Education and health care. Most the eaching are done in Urudu which can be hardly used in the rest of the world. If funds are send to the country it goes in politicians pockets and deffence buget is controlled by army. So waht can a ordianry Pakistani expect in his country.There is no big industryworth the name and what it exports is clothing which is purchsed at bargain basement price by the devoleped world. Educated youths find very difficult to geta aginful empoyment and waht ever is available they go to Gulf for doing menial jobs. Visas to devo;eped world for an ordianry Pakistani is hard to come by becaus of the reason best known to civil society.

I am no advisor to Pakistan but the solution lies with its army if it serious in eradicating terorrisum and itsnet work from its soil then only one can see a well do Pakistan. Thinking to be like Turky you have to act like Turky.

 

Time for war. It needs to be fought at sometime between these two nations. So, India, carry out your surgical strikes. Pakistan, retaliate with artillery attacks in Rann of Kutch. Begin escalation each new day, and eventually nuke each other. Please, I need something like this on CNN to brighten up my boring, sad and pathetic life.

Posted by Sent Smarkjet | Report as abusive
 

There is quite a conflict here between different guys all over. Instead of solving problems stop fighting each other guys..!! I am an Indian and I know what our government is capable of and what is’nt. First of all I would definitely say that war is NOT AT ALL a solution to this problems arising for last 20 years. Pakistan is indeed a country which it itself suffering huge financial and political losses due to extreme terrorism. But 60 % people in India think that everybody in Pakistan hates India and everyone is a potential terrorist. However that is not true. What true here is that Pakistan is out of control because of the failure of the leaders somewhat similar to India. However I would definitely advise all my Pakistani bhai’s that we Indians do not want to make things worse. However you people cannot deny the facts that the current acts on Mumbai was definitely planned through Pakistan and instead of defending yourself so much, you should try to change your system so that poor fellows like Ajmal Kasab do not have to sell his soul in the name of Jehad for only few bucks. When you know there is a known problem at your end, you should co-operate and let us come into your shoes and help you out. Looking forward for nice replies.

Posted by Alonzo | Report as abusive
 

@Alethia,

I never seem to be amazed at the ignorance you have with regards to Pakistan. The evidence, the cell phone messages, everything, the statement from the lone gunman, even the cell phone messages were intercepted before the Mumbai attack. You will ignore the painstaking investigation of the Indian Intelligence, which took weeks, and believe all of the reversals of positions of Pakistani’s, which took a mere 30 seconds???? Either you extremely intelligent and know something we don’t or extremely daft and suffer from a mental illness, the same one that Pakistan’s politicians, ISI and Military have.

Gathering up terrorists in Kashmir, is your idea of human rights abuses, in the normal world, it is called keeping law and order.

Why is India being antagonized, when we were attacked upon?

Why are all the Pak’s ignoring all of the Pakistani character defacing maneovers by Pakistan so far????:

-Pak to send ISI chief, REVERSED!
-Nawaz E. Sharif even admitted Ajmal Kasab is Pak, REVERSED!
-Ajmal Kasab’s own father even claimed his son…FAMILY DISSAPPEARS and Ajmal Kasabh dissappears from existence of Pak’s own computers! Even his family mysteriously dissapears after all this, its almost as though there were a figment of all of our imaginations.

-Ajmal Kasab gave a very high level of detail about his training and those who trained him….OF COURSE, IT WAS ALL MADE UP, made to make Pakistan look bad, right???

-Hamid Gul says 911 and MUMBAI “AN INSIDE JOB”, during Fareed Zakaria Interview on CNN–Sure it was???!!!

-Every Pakistani terrorist is a non-state actor, because
Pakistan is a non state

-Pakistan won’t hand over Daewood

-2001 Terrorists are still free in Pak

Plus a whole list of plausible denials and pathological lying

The world has no belief on Pakistan, because they continually lie to the kaffirs. Pak has no integrity left.

Pak is not serious about true peace. look inside your own dark heart, you know you are not.

You would rather see all of India dead.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Alethia
‘I will leave the answers to these questions up for debate to the good commenters on this site and to the acumen of the good author.’
–What questions???huh??? You are simply endorsing rather justifying the killings of innocent lives in the Mumbai attack,It’s a feeble attempt by you to support the actions of terrorists & give moral sanction to terrorism, in turn by symphatizing with their cause & means applied, you condemn yourself by being a party to the henious crimes committed by terrorists against Humanity.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

To Anup:

You are totally mistaken. I condemn any terrorism anywhere, and by anyone.

In your hatred of Pakistan it seems you will say anything even if it doesn’t make sense.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Alethia
How come you interpret my condemnation of the mumbai attacks as hatred towards Pakistan? or do you wish to convey that the perpretrators & Masters of the terror attacks should be viewed with awe & respect for their ‘Holy’ acts? I repeat- Your very act of justifying the Mumbai attacks is proof enough of your sly & clandestine support & symphathy to terror!

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev Miglani
–What do you think is the reason for Kyani to step on the gas?
The non-compliance of Indian response to build up for war & opt for diplomacy, therefore failure of the ultimate objective of the Mumbai attacks for moving troops from the western borders? Blackmailing USA or maybe make Obama realize the stupidity of his ‘Attack Pakistan’ remarks during his election debates? An attempt to facilitate an open ground for the recouping of the Taliban as was the objective of the 2002 Parliament attack? obviously to put zardari & Co. in their rightful place…or maybe none of the above or something else?

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Alethia,

If you are PM of India how will you respond to Kashmir.Facts are this

1. Hindus are 820MM+ , Muslims 150MM
2. Kasmir Special law is there which prevents demographic shifts, Muslims are majority here in this state 70% & Hindus 30%.No discrimination to citizens of kashmir by the state.
3. If based on religious majority you decide to carve seperate nations can hindus demand that no muslims in India should stay in India coz they will be demanding seperate nations every time they become majority this is hindu apprehension.We are currently a pluralistic society.
4. Now if muslims in india if you say are at bottom of pyramid in social factors then the same holds true even in european countries also, they are the lowest in terms of education, financial wealth etc.
5. Even amongst Muslims of the 1.50 Billion people there is a major challenge in terms of scientific achievment ( Nobel prizes ), Sports etc. There is need for strong leadership among muslim intellectuals to dispassionately look & address these things.They have to push for birth control.

Terrorism Indian government is asking for punishment of mastermind, is that tough to do, Is it not justice for killing people in cold blooded murder.There has been too much flip flops in the whole thing & now it has been a case denying these acts were not committed by people from pakistan.

Mutual trade benefits of a large market of India for pakistan is available, similarly pakistan can benefit on cheaper imports for India instead of getting from other countries. ( India supports this no issues millions gets benefited in the process )

Talent exchange possible for both pakistan professional to set up new industries there & gain expertise.

If you do not dismantle terror infrastructure & allow rule of law how can anybody invest or the economy can thrive in pakistan.

Please let me know how your feedback in a logical manner.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

If India has any proof, why is it holding back. It is reluctant to share evidence even with Interpol. Pakistan is ready to bring culprits to justice when provided solid evidence. Can you prosecute any individual without evidence. Is that justice?

India wants to be the mob of the region. It wants to control the entire region by destabilizing nations. It supports Tamil Tigers against Sri Lanka. It is financing Balochs in Pakistan to win them freedom and similar in Pakhtoons. It is actively involved in destabilizing Pakistan by various means which are not going to go unnoticed any longer.

Posted by Wasif | Report as abusive
 

To Anup:

Let me make my position clear, I am against the terrorists who committed the barbarous attacks on innocent people at Mumbai. If the terrorists came from Pakistan or from anaywhere, I am still against them and condemn them. I have only sympathy for the victims of Mumbai. I don’t justify any actions that those terorists took.

I am for the innocent people of all nations who have no responsibility for terrorists’ actions so please do not paint me as being in sympathy with the terrorists.

Yes, I stand by my comments that Pakistani people and government are innocent of any wrong doing.
But, is the Pakistani government responsible for terrorists emanating from its soil? Yes, they must investigate, arrest the terrorists and procescute them. I believe that that process has started.
No you did not mention Pakistan in your post so I apologize for saying that you may hate Pakistan.
And yes, I do understand that at a terrible time like this, Pakistan is not the most popular country in India right now. Yes, India does deserve our sympathy and I do sympathasize with it.

But please don’t brand all Pakistanis as “Masters of the terror attacks”. In your grief, try to separate terrorists from the good people. And perhaps I was not being sensitive enough toward the feelings of Indian people having undergone such a terrible disaster.

And perhaps it’s also not the right time to bring up the Kashmir issue at a time of such grief. I apologize again.

From me to you, Anup, please accept my sympathies and heartfelt concern and please forgive me if I hurt you.
Alethia

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

jinnah
Ouaid never had any dreams as such, he had only set out to teach the stupid Nehru & gang a lesson or two, whether he succeded or not shall unfold in real time…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

To Vijay:

You already probably know my basic opinion on Kashmir and I would eventually like to answer your questions.

But I have mentioned to another commenter that it is not the appropriate time for me to bring up the Kashmir issue out of respect for the families of the Mumbai victims.

Hopefully we will dicuss this at a later date in another article.

Alethia

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Alethia
– I accept your position, further the irony is that the ultimate sufferers are always the innocent laymen, who pay the price for the crimes of their leadership, nor do I dispute your point that-’I stand by my comments that Pakistani people and government are innocent of any wrong doing.’ – but could the same be said of the Pakistani Army Establishment? Indian people have been loosing innocent lives to umpteen number of similiar terrorists attacks since last almost sixteen years, this time the difference was that the Mumbai attacks included the local influential diaspora & the international limelight was due to the targetting of western citizens, thus the message of the Mumbai attack was more Global than regional, Kashmir is too complex an issue & neither is it the end solution to the peace in the Indian sub-continent, rather the nascent beginning of a long drawn struggle which will ultimately lead to scores of battles & devour many a generation to come…of course no prize for guessing that the ultimate victims will be the innocent people, they shall pay the price of ignorance & for not being assertive for peace. To prevent future disasters & a progressive future for their future generations lies in their hands, if they have the courage to snatch it from the clutches of their self-proclaimed leaders & self- serving religious heads…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Alethia,

I just wanted to get back on the facts of Kashmir which you wrote so thought will scratch your brain for the solutions you may perhaps be having if you were wearing a Indian Hat.I do find you have been very sensible in your comments. The quagmire of managing a country like India of 1.1 billion people is no easy task for any indian leader, in that respect i would still think Manmohan singh was very sober & displayed tremendous amount of leadership in this incident.

It just goes back now whether beyond lip service to the victims the masterminds of this attack are genuinely punished.A nation like its people represented by its leaders need to have a soul where their credibility is established by actioning their words. I am just talking of the various flip flops in Pakistan civilian leaders.I can relate to Manmohan singh where he staked his government despite tremendous domestic compulsion by his coalition partner on the nuke deal to follow through on his promise which he committed as primeminister of India.

I wish people at responsible position in both countries raise up & bring to justice the criminals who did this crime.There is much to be lost & less to be gained if lies & biases sabotage this incident.If that is the basis of a relationship of 2 countries i don’t see hope that peace will prevail.I also know that victory will be to only those who have sought truth for nature & god will have a way of punishing the guilty.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

People of sub-continent need to make it clear to their leadership that they are not interested in bringing down one another. They are for economic prosperity and mutual respect of all religions and people. Send a message to extremists on either side to look at poverty and backwardness of people. Look at slums of urban areas, crime and health care to name a few. Quit spending on armaments and divert resources towards making peoples life better. I have worked with many people from sun-continent and being myself fro same area, I see intelligent and hard working people. How come you become such a hateful person to each other?
And, all you commentators full of hate, shame on you.

Posted by Truth | Report as abusive
 

INDIA AND PAKISTAN
Both countries have Leaders who are IDIOTS.
So what do you expect from IDIOTS. War , as IDIOTS don’t Think.
But the real people of India & Pakistan who want prosperity NOT WAR.

REPLACE THE IDIOT LEADERS OF INDIA & PAKISTAN. then perhaps these two neighbors can live like good neighbors.and try to sit down and talk like CIVILIZED people. or continue to act as IDIOTS .

Posted by Jay | Report as abusive
 

The title of this blog site is NOW OR NEVER. Judging from the Pak responses here, apparently the answer is NEVER.

Saudi nationals doing 9/11 to US is different from what Pak is doing. Having training camps for terrorist organization LET, which is basically a terrorist wing of the ISI, coming to India to bomb trains, shoot civilians with AK 47 rifles.

“Pakistan” is like a suicide bomber, knowing very well how much it is hurting itself even if their activities inflict some damage to India, the damage to their country’s name, future prospects are worth taking. Such is the nature of their implaccable hatred.
Amazing, but such is the reality. Even idiots like Kuldip Nayyar is depressed post-Mumbai.

MUMBAI is one more reminder in 61 years to Indians, PAK will not change course. It is going to further deteriorate and turn into mega-Afghanistan.

WHAT SHOULD INDIA DO?
(1) Short-term, defintitley make Pak pay a heavy price. Some of this has already been accomplished, depite their public posturing. It has been ousted thoroughly to the international community. But more needs to be done.

(2) In the long-term we have to boost anti-terror technical capabilities, dramatically boost man power, increase the NSG commando force, etc and be prepared better. If Israel, such a tiny country can survive, we should be able to do better.

(3) We have started diverging from Pak to a path towards prosperity, despite being much larger in size. This should and will be our goal.

(4) Finally, we should maintain communal harmony in India. MJ Akbar has said it the best soon after Mumbai. Internal problems should be delnked from Pak.

 

The title of this blog site is NOW OR NEVER. Judging from the Pak responses here, apparently the answer is NEVER.

Saudi nationals doing 9/11 to US is different from what Pak is doing. Having training camps for terrorist organization LET, which is basically a terrorist wing of the ISI, coming to India to bomb trains, shoot civilians with AK 47 rifles.

“Pakistan” is like a suicide bomber, knowing very well how much it is hurting itself even if their activities inflict some damage to India, the damage to their country’s name, future prospects are worth taking. Such is the nature of their implaccable hatred.
Amazing, but such is the reality.

MUMBAI is one more reminder in 61 years to Indians, PAK will not change course. It is going to further deteriorate and turn into mega-Afghanistan.

WHAT SHOULD INDIA DO?
(1) Short-term, defintitley make Pak pay a heavy price. Some of this has already been accomplished, depite their public posturing. It has been ousted thoroughly to the international community. But more needs to be done.

(2) In the long-term we have to boost anti-terror technical capabilities, dramatically boost man power, increase the NSG commando force, etc and be prepared better. If Israel, such a tiny country can survive, we should be able to do better.

(3) We have started diverging from Pak to a path towards prosperity, despite being much larger in size. This should and will be our goal.

(4) Finally, we should maintain communal harmony in India. MJ Akbar has said it the best soon after Mumbai. Internal problems should be delnked from Pak.

 

India phatto ho gaya –
Pakistan Army chief slap on indian face – india feared away. indian planes pushed back by Pakistan Airforce –
Why india is lying? india should receive an oscar for drama of mumbai attack.
Pakistan forces are in best 5 of world wide armed forces.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

Peace Bahai,
Army Cheif Slap on Indian Face … Saddam also was telling he will give fitting reply to Americans …What happened is history now. Ome more is on the making. Best of Luck – Bharat

Posted by Bharat | Report as abusive
 

To my Dear Anup, Vijay, Jinnah, Mr. Sanjeev Miglani and other friends:

I must leave this site now to attend to my family’s Christmas celebrations.

I wish all of you Peace and Happiness and may India and Pakistan come closer together even through this terrible tragedy of Mumbai. Here is a prayer from YouTube which is only one of many prayers in the lovely rainbow of all religions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orUcYjXki dE&feature=related

With Love Always, Alethia

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Thought provoking but biased.i expected something better.a cheap trick

Posted by omair | Report as abusive
 

Dear All
Merry Christmas to all :)… yes Amidst of saying that there is no chance of war both countries are preparing for it. But every time one thing is forgotten is, This war is just based on the aggression build up by decades. but not for a betterment.
It may be possible to launch a Nuclear weapon for Pakistan army with in 10 minutes. or to ravish Pakisthan by Indian army…
But is it possible to solve the basic issues of 40% poverty affected Pakistan??
But is it possible to increase the integrity of difference religions people in India??
Never.. If at all there is a war… the loss is only for common people those who rule never lose anything…. And thats what make me so sad in the event of a war.. I wish peace to all common people who suffer because of the ego based decisions of athourities

Posted by Sreehari | Report as abusive
 

Present stand off between Pakistan & India with threat of War is real,India is trying to save its face from its own people because it wrongly and in haste blamed Pakistan within hours of Mumbai attacks,now the people in India want action against Pakistan but the Indian Government knows that it is not justified & too risky eversince Pakistan became Nuclear and will retaliate fiercefully even if India attempts a surgical strike.The Indian Government is in catch 22 position now…….lets see if they commit this foolish blunder or just let the events fade away,all depends on pressure from its Armed forces as well.

Posted by Arif A.Khan | Report as abusive
 

What is required is not overt military action against the terrorist camps, which only contain brainless and brainwashed fanatic idiots. Kill a few of them and a hundred more will be recruited tomorrow. The real terrorist brains will not be found anywhere nearby. India should instead send covert operatives with missions to assasinate ISI generals and the Jihad leader’s inside Pakistan. Only then the message will hit home, that abetting terrorism is not a low risk low cost strategy for them.

The Mumbai terrorists were promised USD 4000 for a successful operation. Why can-not India place USD 400,000 rewards on the heads of the suspects ?

Posted by firo | Report as abusive
 

A war with pakistan is the only way to solve this issue. Otherwise we will see Mumbai and other cities getting hammered again and again. The LET have to be destroyed. I guess, now the time has come to strike Pakistan before its too late.

Posted by Suryan | Report as abusive
 

Dear Arif A.Khan,
In India we don’t have any pressure from Armed forces. They are the citizens and government who decides whether we would flatten you guys or not ;). Actually in a democracy and this is a standard practise and I hope your democrazy learns this new fact.

just wait we are coming soon
– with love from India
;)

Posted by fromIndia | Report as abusive
 

My personal opinion is India should break the spine of pakistan economy . Hit their economy in garment and export sector . pakis wants war …kewl …one question to all pakis …CAN UR ECONOMY SUSTAIN THE AFTER WAR ? go and post the questions to ur leaders . maybe there think tankers needs to bruish up some numecrunching skills .

Posted by Arnab Maity | Report as abusive
 

Alethia describes the NWFP as wild and woolly and the people there as terrorists. The NWFP holds some of the bravest people in the world who would not easily surrender their freedom, as the Moghuls and later on the British discovered. This does not make them terrorists. The same “wild and woolly” men fought a non-violent struggle to throw out the British under the leadership of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, who was called the Frontier Gandhi. Their codes of conduct may be different, their value systems may be different, but this does not make them any inferior to other poeple in basic human values. Read a couple of good history books, dear, columnists in magazines and the internet may not always give you the correct perspective.

Posted by Jayadevan | Report as abusive
 

Here’s an analogy to the current situation of Pakistan sponsored terrorism in India

I keep a pet dog in my house for whatever purpposes one might keep a pet:

The dog is not trained and controlled well and its mistakes are oevrlooked

This dog starts to crap in outside neighbours house everyday

When the the neighbour compains, I say its not my dog’s crap, can you prove it, even though i know its my dog’s crap

Since its the neighbours poor wife who cleans the crap everyday, the house holder is not really bothered to take the issue up with me and therefore the crapping continues

Soon the dog, emboldened by the lack of reprimand and control starts to get new ideas and starts crapping in my house as well..

By this time the dog has got enough teeth to bite me if i try to controll it

Therefore for every new incident of crapping at my neighbour’s house I have a new excuse that the dog craps in my place as well..so we are facing the same problem. Let’s agree to solve it together.

The questions that one can ask now:

- Willl I be receptive to the idea of my neighbour bring in an dog catcher to take the dog away??
- Will I be receptive to the idea of my neighbour coming into my house and taking the dog away??
- Willl I be receptive to the idea that I need to so something as the problem has originated from my actions??
- Will I accept responsibility and at least start restricting the dogs movement??

I read couple of threads on this issue and couldnt help laughing at the rhetoric by pakistani nationals,
I mean look at your state where you are and then talk of harming India, your economy is going down the drains, your society is held hostage by fundametalist. Think hard !!you might going the afgan way. Your only hope is to have peace with India. Lot of people talk of kashmir, lets look at history, history says it was the indian armed forces which protected kashmir when it was attacked by pakistan and paktoon forces and the state willingly decided to join indian union. It was due to political misadventure and continuous poisioning and fuelling of terrorism by pakistan that the problem has reached where it is.
Pakistan might be having a nuclear missile, a borrowed technology most probably :-), which am sure you guys are not intellingent enough to use, remember the way pakistan army had the best tank in the world the ‘patton tank’ and even then you were razed to dust. I will tell you why, because Indians forught for truth, for upholding the sovereignity of their nation and there was pride and conviction in them. In battles your arms dont count as much as your spirit and conviction does.
In the end I would urge my pakistani friends to stop talking like idiots and accept the reality, what happened in mumbai originated from pakistani soil. The idea is how soon would realize that some day same fundamentalism would turn you into an afganistan if you dont control it and get your kids educated. for the ignorant refer to the dog analogy above.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

Peace…go get some real education and not at madrassas’. All this talk about “we will give befitting reply” & “we will fight with India for 1000 years” & “we will fight till the last drop of blood”…..just who are you trying to scare here?

Pakistan is China’s lapdog and remain so for another 10,000 years. The rest of the world now knows who runs Pakistan.

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

Those who are considering Pakistan as Iraq, need correction, if you would have some knowledge of Iraq – it was on the American support and various sanctions by world drama organization UNO – Pakistan infact is a self reliance country and its economy is not based on economy of some other country – there have been tall claims of weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iraq – but so far none has been found – Pakistan on the other hand has the armed forces which is ranked among top 5 – india has been defeated many times by Pakistan military so infact indai is trying to get support of world by false claimimg Pakistan involvement in mumbai attacks – but world can watch, see and think that such thing cannot happen without internal support that is why FBI, for instance asked india to bring evidences on the table to prove Pakistan involvement, and infact bring out the black sheep among them.

So stop lying and come into reality – You know Pakistan is the best and accept that india is afraid of PAKISTAN.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

Ms Alethia,

Part of a response ….

“Islamabad is manifestly unwilling to meet the demands we have made. It will not hand over any wanted person. It is hedging on banning the Jamaat-ud-Dawa. It is not accepting the Pakistani origin of the terrorists, questioning even Ajmal Amir Kasab’s confessions. The Jaish-e-Muhammad leader Masood Azhar is not under detention. The claim that Dawood Ibrahim is not in Pakistan, insinuations that Hindu terrorists might be involved in Mumbai and demanding evidence before Pakistan will move, despite known facts, reflects profound unwillingness to mend its conduct towards India. Pakistan’s reflexive responses, whenever accused of complicity in terrorism, are in full display in the Mumbai case. In these conditions no meaningful clean-up operation can occur in Pakistan.

This requires a stepped up response from India that may include withdrawal of our envoy, calibrated economic sanctions, travel restrictions and demand that international economic assistance to Pakistan depend on implementation of its anti-terrorism obligations.

Our soft response stems partly from concern about weakening the brittle civilian democratic government vis-a-vis the military. We should shed sentimentalism about democracy in Pakistan as its future is not dependent on India’s policies. Is it viable political strategy to continue absorbing terrorist attacks without reaction for the sake of the health of the democratic forces in Pakistan? This way we will bleed for years because profound democratic change in Pakistan will take that long. The rest of the world, rarely squeamish about military rule in Pakistan, will accept it again tomorrow if their interests so dictate.

Senator John Kerry mentioned in Delhi the planned $15 billion package for Pakistan with a military component. This exposes the gap between US and India on Pakistan. Offshoring our post-Mumbai anti-terror policy will not get us wanted results. Calling Pakistan’s bluff about moving its forces from west to east may get all to address the core problem better. Our diplomacy should be based on realities, not wishful thinking.”

The writer is a former foreign secretary.

Written by Kanwal Sibal

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

Peace…go back to your madrassa and scare those 2 year old kids chutia

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan, what more proof the world wants from such a flip-flop “Terrorist Country”. Look at this article http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=19199
for which Pakistani officials claimed and detained Indian nationals illegally.

Can someone please give a crash course of Democracy, Law, Justice and Proper Intelligence training.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

The only nuclear capability of Pakistan is the Hot Air from this mentally challenged 2 year old posting as Peace. But all in all, it is really an obidient lapdog of China.

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

Peace and Magic786

is that the language they teach you in madrassa’s? Is that your op-mod. That level of language speaks a lot about you. Like I said b4, go and scare 2 year old kids with “how great Pakistan is and how we will defeat the infidels” and on the other hand putting your hand out for donations from kaafirs!!!

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

India supports the Tamil tigers in Sri Lanka, it funds the BLA (Baloch liberation army), it even funds the taliban to fight the US troops to keep both afghanistan and pakistan unstable.

I blame the americans becuase due to their greed (they see india as a huge opportunity for investment-due to its large population) they dont allow facts to come to light in the media. They are too scared to offend the indians.

Obviously pakistan is a smaller country and is not such a big investment opportunity.

But this does not change the fact that India whilst 70% of its children are under nourished and half its rural population is still not hooked up to the electricity grid -will never be a “superpower”. The indians need to stop day dreaming and start living in the real world.
In the real world their western neighbour has a far more professional military more than capable of defending its country. This is not afghanistan vs USA.

Posted by mustafa | Report as abusive
 

Do you really know the meaning of madarassa? stop saying the words which have been spoon feeded in your mouth, come to real world, open your eyes, ears and senses if they exist – Accept it you idiots are afraid of Pakistan and the great nation of Pakistani – Pakistan is great and will always be.

Come to your senses……

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

aslijatt yaar, maa ko baeju border kay us paar, hamm peace talk karay gay, yaa phir behan baij tho sorry think she is busy in calcuta!

Posted by Ali786 | Report as abusive
 

So Peace Ali786 & Magic786

Apna asli chamaarpan pe bas gaye. He he he …this is your so called Pakistan.

Posted by AsliJat | Report as abusive
 

Speak English you hindu fanatic! dont understand your untouchable language. Remember this much Muslims ruled India for over 800years and all the historic building e.g. taj mahal, ancient mosques all all work of Muslims.

All you hindu fanatic are good at is buring the babri mosque, churches so go and get a life. If you are already sick of it then jump off a cliff or even beter cross the border and we ll fulfill your wish.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive
 

Those who are really excited on war, just go and talk to your wife, mother, sisters whether they like war or not?

In war not Indians/Pakistanis/Hindus/Muslims/Christ ians are dyeing, it’s humen going to dye.

Please don’t spread hatred, terrorists are not for a religion, they are killing innocent people for their hidden-agendas.

Posted by A Proud Indian | Report as abusive
 

If the media exposure, events so far, the Sultante of Oman, and Iran asking Pak to dismantle terror infrastructure etc have not induced any Pak shame, expect this “catch-22? of Indian govt to further crash the Pak economy already on life support. Expect this “catch-22? of India(!!) to force Pak to reach a grinding halt, and to run around seeking money to “run” the “country”.

But then “surgical strikes” whatever cannot be permanently ruled out. Sure, state sponsored terrorism backe dup with threat of nuclear war is new to humanity. But then counter strategies evolve.

The most amusing are the claims, Indian politicians are doing this and that for political purposes, etc. It is a question of our security. Time to tackle terrorism from “Pakistan”- a non-state with “stateless” actors and state “actors”. That simple.

 

Aslijat — the national language and attitude of yours can be easily seen in “indian” blog

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

Everything is not so rosy in Pakistan. Over the past 60 years of thaw between India and Pakistan, it has always been Pakistan who was belligerent. All its misadventures (including 1947, 1965, 1971 and Kargil) have backfired. It has been continuing to wage war against India through drugs, illegal currency, insurgency and terrorism. However, the entire Pakistani Military and Government seems to be badly shaken this time. In the cover of a tough posture, all is not so well with Pakistan.

India has always been alone in the war against Pakistan with China and USA strongly supporting it, although not directly. In 1971 war, USA was very close to interfering and had sent its infamous 7th fleet to participate. China and USA have always kept the supply lines running.

However, now India is a lot more important to both China and USA. Notwithstanding previous relationship with Pakistan, it is a source of continuous economic strength to both countries.

Apart from economic factors, Pakistan remains exposed to the whole world with the role that it is playing in global terrorism. Jihadi factories have produced terrorists who have waged war against not just India but also USA, China, UK, Spain, etc. The claims of ‘we don’t know anything’ have not gone favourably with anyone. USA is striking at will in NWFP and US agents are all over Pakistan.

Pakistani Military is also in no condition to fight. It is heavily deployed in the Afghan border. Majority of Pakistani Army have soldiers that are of Pathan and Baluch origin. They are strongly against Pakistani Army’s operations in Balochistan and Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). Morale of the fighting forces is extremely weak. In Pakistani Army, XI Corps and XII Corps comprise mostly of Baluchs and Pathans, and are expected to break quickly.

Entire operations of Army are now highly corrupted. There are many businesses controlled by the Army. War is least of the focus.

Modern wars are fought on ‘oil’. Pakistan has not learnt from Kargil debacle, where it had fuel only for a week if a full-scale war broke out. India has built a stockpile of oil and is located in operational areas.

Entire focus of Pakistani Army was to train insurgents. This can help a little in actual war. Al-Khalid Tank or MBT 2000 that is jointly developed by China and Pakistan has not been induced fully. Type 88 tank, that is the mainstay, is over 30 years old in technology. It lacks the agility and firepower of T-90 or Arjun tanks of India. M113 and M109 armoured carriers are based on a 50 year old model.

Main Pakistani cities such as Lahore, Islamabad, etc. are well within the striking distance of Indian forces. Once Indian Army is deployed, Pakistani Army will be more focused on defending. It has only one Strike Corps, Mangla Corps based out of PoK that is also expected to be put in a defensive role.

Pakistani missiles that have been demonstrated in media are imported from North Korea as an exchange to nuclear technology. The source for missiles has dried-up. China has been reluctant to share its missiles. While Pakistan officially claims that it has over 20,000 missiles, the real number is less than 1/10th.

Nuclear stockpile of Pakistan is totally in US control. It will be difficult to exercise the nuclear option without the consent of USA, which is very unlikely.

Pakistan Air Force has no answer to advanced Indian fighters such as Sukhoi-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 that are built with modern avionics and assault systems. The battle for air supremacy will be one way.

Pakistani Navy has many old ships that were purchased through a non-transparent mechanism and what is deployed is, at times, complete junk. Pakistan has claimed to induct few indigenously build submarines with French assistance. It also does not have an aircraft carrier.

In all, if a full-scale war breaks, Pakistan is doomed.

JAI HIND !!

Posted by Vishy | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is MAD Country ruling by extremist they even don’t realizing WAR is not a solution to stop terrorism as both country are suffering from it; but India does despite of 50 time more powerful Amry than pak.
We Indian army have so much advance fighter plan and also 5th generation fighter plane is in under development which will compete F22…..so what Pak’s 1.5th generation fighter plane will do? pak has ne’clear weapon but can it dare to reach Indian territory? NO never ..Pak peoples are misguided by Pak media they even Not realizing….How they are desperate for WAR. we knows the reality war is not a solution if millions of would die both side and problem remain the same than?
Pak peoples have to be sensitive think positive.
Regards
Jai Hind

 

I am sure no sensible person will offer their comments after seeing level of civility.

Posted by Truth | Report as abusive
 

Pak will deny all the evidences against Kasab, terrorist captured by India. By this time Pak has erased every evidence of Kasab from pakistani records. it was Pakistan media that exposed that the father accepted Kasab as his son. Now officials have sealed off external access to the village and the person claimed to be relative of kasab. Is it hard for Pak to shut his mouth? Only third party access and DNA test will verify the claim.

Posted by Manoj | Report as abusive
 

This is a scary conflict because it is potentially nuclear. Pakistan is a simmering country full of frustrated fighters. India is prepared for the worst. Only time will tell if rationality will prevail.

 

Thanks Vishy for such a good detail.
JAI HIND!!
BHARAT MATA KI JAI

Posted by replytopakis | Report as abusive
 

At one profound level one has to realise that India is no longer an equal partner with Pakistan. India has grown much bigger and much stronger and much more prominent in the world.
Pakistanis have an obsession with India. They want to think of an India as an equal in rivalry. But both are not equal. India has surpassed Pakistan. And India is not a failed State. India is moving in the right direction and India might become a superpower in the future.
Pakistan is an irritant to its neighbour and you will have to find ways to minimise the damage to yourself. Pakistan can damage itself too. Finding a formula for this situation is not an easy thing.
Great power like India has to behave responsibly. As a great power America has behaved stupidly and irresponsibly. US has a huge problem in Iraq. India can learn lessons from the United States by being disciplined and responsible.

Posted by Manoj | Report as abusive
 

I dont think Indias leadership has what it takes to make the tough call to strike pakistan. The whole question of going to war is a wrong one. The fact is most Indians are “EXTREMLY” ignorant to the fact that Pakistan has been conducting a proxy War with india since the 80′s that has left over 60 thousand people dead in India. India Gov response to that has been all tough talk and no action.

If India is to survive as a nation then it needs to act and send a clear message across the border. Indian lives are not going to be lost for free . Some one will pay a heavy price for it.

Weather its a air strike or a missile strike , it must be done now.

India has been at war but has never bothered to respond. Its a clear sign of weakness.

Much is made of Pakistans Nukes and the fact is they are so old and slow that they can be neutralized way before Pak even considers firing them. They are like a tool to “black mail” India and so far India has been black mailed.

Pak will surrender before they fire a single nuke. That if US has not taken over there nuke installations.

Posted by Jan | Report as abusive
 

oh guys so many Indians are here and not even a single person from Pakistan to defend his country ….
@ Manoj … India has undoubtedly become a better country than Pakistan for sure… their Media, their education, their people almost in all the fields..
but still there are many people who are living below the line of poverty. still there is caste system widely spread across the whole India… still they kill their women at the time of birth and fyi i must tell you India is the only country in the world where there are more Men and Less Women and I guess I have already told you the reason behind that.
your people are more in number, they are more educated and above all they have much much more access to media especially internet so where ever you see, you will find more Indians talking against Pakistan. you know the basic Rule… Majority is authority… so since you guys are more in number that’s why everybody think you guys are right and they start blaming Pakistan directly… keeping the facts aside… let me cut my story short

if you compare the Military and Weapons..
Pakistan have cruz missiles, do you have?
Pakistan have missiles with the range of 3500km. what is the range of your missiles? I guess 1500km at the most
what is the accuracy rate of your missile targeting? Pakistan has got a better one…
You have got more number of troops and more number of bombs no doubt…
you are 1112 M in numbers where as we are only 117 Million. so I can bet on this.. even if India stand victorious after the war, their death toll will be at least 10 times more that Pakistan in number.
But you know, Muslim believe in a life after death. They believe that if they will have good deeds in this world, they will go to heaven so when they fight, they fight with the passion for the survival of their country and ambition not to only defeat the enemy but to get the place in Heaven.

Posted by Mudassir | Report as abusive
 

There are some here from the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan” posing as Indians and claiming they are peace-loving people and don’t want war etc. The truth of the matter is India will not be launching a war, but will only be responding to the covert terrorist war the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan” has been waging for quite some time.

Also this has nothing to do with “jongoism”, “nationalism”, “patriotism”, it is a question of India’s future. Come what may, the Mumbai massacre cannot go unanswered.

 

I am appalled to read comments of my fellow indian friends and brothers, Who have grossely misunderstood Saudi Arabia, let us steer away from cynism and examine our thoughts and comments, Saudi Arabia being a rich nation, funds a lot of poor nations around the world, FACTS AND RECORDS well documented ON THE NET, How can one hold SAUDI accountable when a recipient country is utilising their funds otherwise, ITS LIKE SAYING DONT PAY YOUR TAXES and dont give away in charity, for you never know where your money is going, IRONY (we end up doing both), SHOULD WE BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR CHARITY, IF saudi is being blamed for funding pakistan , so should America, as america’s military and financial aid to pakistan for war against terror is used to beef up PAKISTAN’S military arsenal and not being used, where it is intended to, IF america is coznizant of the fact that Pakistan shelters banned terrosit camps, Then why does it sign huge arms deal with pakistan, THERE ARE LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES WHO HAVE INDIRECTLY CREATED THIS MONSTER (PAKISTAN). Its a completely wrong notion to believe and state that all islamic states fund terrorism, NO MUSLIM COUNTRY if it follows the tenets of ISLAM will support terrosim in any form. We live in a era where nations are interdependant on each other, Appreciate Mr.Pranab Mukerjee’s effort to draw world attention to INDIA. Agree our emotions are running high, but the fact of the matter is we can’t change our neighbours, coercing INDIA to fight is only going to cause collateral damage on both sides and we have seen enough of blood shed. It might be exciting for some to cuddle up in their sofa’s and see an ongoing WAR. but ask a soldier what it like to leave a family behind and face death ahead.

Posted by syed | Report as abusive
 

ali-
” Remember this much Muslims ruled India for over 800years and all the historic building e.g. taj mahal, ancient mosques all all work of Muslims. ”

why does every pakistani say this we ruled india for 800 years .
who ruled your country (offcourse there is no such think as pakistan before 1947) before even muslims arrive in subcontinent . i hope u will find out ur root history of ur ancestory

if u people say we ruled 800 years then india ruled thousands of years ok.
i dont how long muslim relegion existed in south asia.
90 percent muslims in south asia are converted forcely by scyko mughals or converted by them selves from hindu untouchable casted .

ok
is this enough

Posted by cj | Report as abusive
 

@Mudassir, India has huge social issues, which is slowly but surely improving. RThere is a fight you may call Jihad against this social discrimination. We are not proud of this male/female ratio. But Rising tide rises boat. Meanwhile pakistan’s record in gender ration isnt great either just check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic s_of_Asia, you will enlightened.

regarding missiles/range/accuracy. India is preparing to deter China’s capabilities. Another link for your enlightenment, http://cns.miis.edu/research/space/spfrn at.htm
For the same reason we do not want war my friend. Pak tried 4 times and failed.

Posted by Manoj | Report as abusive
 

Guys, Check this link out about race relations in South East Asia.

http://atrocitynews.wordpress.com/2008/1 1/24/caste-violence-in-drambedkar-law-co llege-chennai-%E2%80%93-a-report/

Posted by James | Report as abusive
 

i dont think india will do this war, indian national congress i taking the milage for up comming election in may or june, i feel this as indian,

Posted by ravi | Report as abusive
 

Indians and Pakistanis are genetically the same people, both are ramshackle democracies, both are dying for international recognition, both have almost empty pockets, both have huge inflated egos, both speak same-accent English, etc, etc, etc. HELP! BOTH HAVE Nuclear BOMBS. ANd they’re stupid enough to use it.
Ladies and Gentlemen! Fasten your seat belts. This subcontinent is humanity’s testing ground of the 21st century – pharmaceuticals, cars, and yes. Man’s violent entry into the nuclear age. Hiroshima, Nagasaki….you’re just babies, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Posted by ParashuRam | Report as abusive
 

muslims or pakistanis who say we ruled india for over 800years , have look at this map shows right from mahabharatha times of india in kingdoms.

Posted by cj | Report as abusive
 
 

i wanna ask some questions from all Indians around here

1. how did those terrorist reached Mumbai?

2. if you people say they came by sea route then what was your RAW doing at that time?

3.why didnt your intelligence service acted on the complaint of your fisher union?

4. why was that terrorist wearing a red and yellow band on the wrist worn by only extremist hindu parties?

5. why was himant kalkary targeted when he was investigating indian army?

 

Victor
‘Come what may, the Mumbai massacre cannot go unanswered.’
—BullsEye Brother! That’s the Spirit & don’t let it fizzle out this time, those who forget History- condemn themselves to it’s repetition, we may forgive, even if an iota of sincerity is displayed, but never forget….

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

I represent the country OF love, peace, tolerance and courage. We have been many time victimize by false claims – I am THE PAKISTANI.
indian media has done its level best and still striving to defeat Pakistan in the race of economy, progress and prosperity, but we have survived all ill-intentions of india – There are tall stories about Pakistan involvement in mumbai attacks, but there exist no evidence – none has been provided either to Pakistan or anyone else in the world. FBI, for instance asked india to bring evidences on the table to prove Pakistan involvement, and infact bring out the black sheep among them. Pakistani Army Chief has slapped the indian forces and politicians by saying we are ready to face any operation whether it is war or otherwise, and this has done in front of the whole world.

Some newspaper all over the world has even said that it is only a drama created by indian themselves just to cast away thier fear towards Pakistan.

Other things you have forgot or may be ignore are indian brutality in occupied Kashmir, indian support to gorillas to fight against Srilanka military

My recommendation to all who dream of Pakistan defeat on any ground is to consult good psychiatrist because this dream of your never comes true.

Long live and prosperous Pakistan.

There exist sheer misconception, and correction is needed in minds of people who tooks media reports as evidence and then start debating and writing articles – Print media is very strong way of communicating ideas and news – but it also require certain responsibility and accountability – which is lacking in various articles posted here. Some very intelligent guys said that half truth is much worse than lies and result in results which no one could even imagine.

Following points, although pointed out previously, presented here again to refresh your memory:
1) Dawood Ibrahim is an indian and not Pakistani
2) Russia being an oldest ally of india, and envy to Pakistan, will only say the words which are spoon feeded to it.
3) FBI has urged india to bring out the (true) evidences of Pakistani involvement in mumbai attack, and to idnetify balck sheeps among them.
4) Lone surviving terrorist is Hindu, why his wrist band removed from photos which are being showed on various indian media.
5) China said it is as friendly to Pakistan as it was in previous years and ask india to prove its contentions
6) Check out the statistics of 1999 Kargil incident, who went to US and which side had more fatal casualties. Same was the history in 1965. Who supported the separation of Pakistan in 1971. india always have ill-intentions towards Pakistan
7) No corroborative evidence so far has been provided either to Pakistan or anyone in the world to prove involvement of any Pakistani or any muslim in mumbai attack – which were self imposed by india.
Another name of india is “Hindustan” which means “land for hindus only”, just think what it would be for other religions. Brutality in Kashmir by indian is on news since 1948.

These are things which i can count on my fingures, there are lot many stories…………

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

It is a war between two ideological positions. And India is winning. Thats why so much desperation from Pakistan side. If a dalit like Mayawati – downtrodden for centuries – can rise and become chief minister of a state and indeed hope to become prime minister of India, what was the need for seperate muslim homeland? The ruling class of Pakistan is faced with this question for which there is no answer. So it is easier to create bogey of India, hell-bent on destroying Islamic Pakistan, thus keeping raison-d-etre alive. This Mumbai attack and subsequent denials is part of that plan.
Current attack is definitely handiwork of establishment (undermining the elected government). Elected PM had agreed to send ISI head for investigation. He was made to eat his own words, because establishment does not want peace with India. Peace with India negates the need for Pakistan.
We in India have no such compunction. A Pakistan ruled by its people\’s will rather than feudal lord is welcome. It is time for people of Pakistan to rise and demand \’BSP\’ – Bijalee, Sadak, Paani and not war with India. How come elected representative not be able to order his army chief? Its time Pakistani people make their army chief realise that he serves people not rule them.
If Pakistani people need any help, entire world is with them.

Posted by Nvp | Report as abusive
 

Certain elements in this forum are vociferousy putting forward that Pakistan is not involved in the mumbai terror attack. Another argument is that India has failed to provide evidence. I would like to say both are wrong. There is ample evidence but Pakistan doesnt have the will and machinery to act. Because Pakistan’s law machinery is in shambles and held hostage by its army and fundamentalist forces. The telephone calls made by the terrorist Ajmal Kasab were to a number in Karachi, is the evidence. His confession of being a pakistani national is the evidence, which pakistan and its media is denying.His parents have disappeared over night from thier village. Kasab is asking for help again and again from Pakistan high commision.The terrorist called up a media channel in India, their accent was distinctly of NWFP, Pakistan origin.Pakistan has for years supported insurgency in kashmir and Afganistan.What more evidence would anyone need? Pakistans leadership is a spineless leadership and it went back on its word several times during the whole episode. It never sent ISI chief to India after it promised to do so.Several times the statements have been made and changed. Dawood ibrahim is an India agreed but he is also a criminal in India, and India has demanded sevral times that he should be handed over , why hasnt pakistan govt done that??
Few days ago there was a blast in lahore and the Pakistan govt shamelessly tried to paint it on India, and it was later known to be an act of a Islamic fundamentalist group in pakistan.
Some elements here spoke about greatness of Pakistan, what greatness
How many technological institutes or management institutes or higher educational inst are there in Pakistan which are famous in world??
Where is the economy in pakistan headed. It had to ask a loan from IMF to avoid bankruptsy of its economy,
I dont understand what idiotic info. are people in Pakistan living on.
Some elements claim to have won wars against India!! which war ? each time Pakistan tried the misadventure of a direct attack it had to face defeat so it took to cowardly ways of suporting terrorism
Today pakistan closest ally US accepts that mumbai attacks were carried out from Pak’s soil
which evidence are you talking about??
Lets talk some sence here and take people who are ill-informed can take their uneducated self to some other forum.
No point in pointing fingers the time has come when Pakistan takes some action to reign in the fundamentalist forces at work otherwise the day is not far when it will look like war ravaged Afganistan , with only orphaned kids handicapped men and raped women surving.
Its time you guys start giving good education to your kids and give them a positive and a productive view point rather than the religious ‘jihad’ poison that you are feeding to young minds
The choice is urs either wake up or in some time you wouldnt be there on world’s map .

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

to add further to statistics :
Pakistan’s literacy rate : 50% incomparison 65%-70% in India, though India is much larger in size.
How many pakistani companies can claim to be in Fortune 500 or in even Top 1000 companies??
People living below poverty line : in pakistan the percentage is 35% incomparison in India its 25% even though india has a much larger population.
How many pakistani nationals have won nobel or any other academic, literary prize the answer is none!!
Which greatness are pakistani nationals talking about here???
I dont understand!! and these are full truths, verifiable by international agencies.
All you have is some outdated weaponery and lot of hungry fanatics ready to kill innocent unarmed people of civilised society !!
and what you call jihad is nothing else but some rich powers are using pakistani nationals as cheap fodder to fuel their interests and you hungry morons have no options..but to give in.. because there is no future for you anyways ..

which greatness are you talking about ??

The truth is pakistan’s whole existence has been centered around hatred for India and thats why you are a nation of negative people.
Grow up !!

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

@Parshuram
It seems You’re pessimistic and sadistic person. it seems like your root is from somewhere else tribal. would you compare your parents with road side naked beggars?

 
 
 

@Peace,

What you call Kashmiri violence, most countries would call maintaining Territorial Integrity against separatists and terrorists.

Don’t you remember, the Bengali separatists, what you Pakistan did to them, you systematically genocided 2.5million hindus and even kille 500,000 of your own muslim people to avoid them being separate from Pakistan. By that standard, if India is doing so called ‘brutality’ against the Kashmiri’s, what standard are you having against your own country? That makes Pakistan a purely evil state, doesn’t it?

Please don’t be so one-sided in your analysis, it shows your insincerity in dealing with the issue.

My family was originally from Lahore. They were told to leave, otherwise they would be killed. I talked with my grandfather (may god be with him) and he said the muslims mercilessly killed on a 10:1 ratio basis, the non-stop beheadings are still etched in his mind.

Wholesale liquidation slaughter bloodbath genocide, was always served fresh by the Pakistani army, where ever it went.

Posted by Peace..is gained by giving up violence | Report as abusive
 

@Umair, Peace, Ali,

Is official, Zardari admits at UN today, Pakistan has a great cancer in it..terrorism…..

Either you are with Zardari, or with the terrorists.

Pls take a position.

Posted by Sanjay | Report as abusive
 

OK! indirectly but atleast some sensible guy from india accepted that they are brutally killing Muslims in Kashmir which is suppose to be Pakistan area.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

lol@Sanjay,
All the three went to meet Kayani for taking position.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive
 

please go through this link .

USA PREDCITED OF FUTURE PAKISTAN .2025

http://newsonterror.com/future.html

OH MY GOD , PAKISTAN will be out of map.
as per this link from US intellingence

Posted by cj | Report as abusive
 

The trouble of Asia is India because they are blackmailer, they are killing innocents in Kashmir, they are killing peoples from more than 20 freedom fighter movements inside India, they are feeling mini super power in the world but they are not able to control poverty on there own country, they kill minorities & killing christens, Muslims and others on the name of Hinduism by RSS,BJP and many more fundamentalist Hindu organizations.

Indian govt and Indian peoples are under Pakistanfobia and whatever happens in India they always blame Pakistan and try to embers Indian Muslims.

Indian govt is not trustable for china

Indian are threading Bangladesh and occupying one island of Bangladesh

Indian are feeding Tamil tigers move in srilanka and they are the founder of tamil

Indians are doing economic blackmailing with Nepal

Who is safe in Asia from Indian terrorism and blackmailing?

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

After reading through the threads I have realized that people from Pakistan are either ill-literate or they dont understand the language of logic. The whole world is bearing down on them, their own president accepts his folly and still morons out here are arguing with Indians.
Sahi kaha kisi ne “laat ke bhoot, baat se nahi maante” guess that the treatment they deserve.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

I think its time to answer a few points, which our friends from pakistan have raised all over this blog, once and for all.

1. ISI is under the scanner for its alleged involvement in many violence in Kashmir and other parts of India. After the Kabul Indian embassy attacks, YOUR ally’s(i mean Pakistan’s) agency CIA pointed to ISI involvement.
ISI reports to your Army and your elected PM has no say whatsoever in its functioning(The drama your politicians created over sending ISI chief to India highlights that). While RAW is Indian intelligence agency, which reports to the NSA who reports to the Home Minster of India. And HM is elected by the people.

2. You people say this same nonsense again and again. Look Mr. Hemant Karkare was a brave officer. He was admired by almost every one in this department for his honesty and sincerity. Instead of praising his valor, you people are talking rubbish.He was one of the first to be gunned down, because he was there within minutes to save his city. When he heard the news that the COWARD terrorists ,unable to withstand our police firing ran like chickens into a hospital ,where helpless people where being treated, he, without thinking twice prepared to fight these cowards. These COWARDS instead of fighting him face to face attacked him while he was still in his vehicle. Even after being shot Mr. Karkare fired back at them, hurting one terrorist. So PLEASE in your effort to hide the truth about your country’s involvement in this, don’t hide the sacrifice done by the martyrs like Mr. Karkare,Mr. Kamte or Mr. Salaskar.

3. And for heaven’s sake don’t fool the public. The world knows that Pakistani forces were decimated in the three wars. If India had lost, then why did your general surrender his army to India? Why was Bangladesh formed? Why is Kargil still a part of India? Ponder over it!

4. Kashmir issue has no sense here. Mumbai attack is something different. Please don’t bring Kashmir into this. And by the way, Kashmir is a part of India. No one can claim it!

5. India will not act like the immature Pakistani government. We will issue statements which we mean.Not like your government people who are so confused and keep changing their comments each day. Kasab is still under investigation, and the probe has not finished. How do you expect the Govt of India to give you half baked evidence? All we know now is that these people came from Pak, their commanders are in pak etc, and we have shared it. Full report of the investigation will be given only after the probe is complete. And am sure it will be shared with Pakistan. But I wonder if they will take any action.

6. India does NOT aid the LTTE. They were responsible for the assassination of our ex PM. And he is the husband of “India’s most powerful woman”.How do you expect us to support them? What do we gain?
Some political parties in the south are against the SL army. And that is ONLY because they are torturing Tamil civilians who live in LTTE controlled SL.

7. And I don’t understand why my Pakistani friends are not talking about their fellow citizen Kasab anywhere here!?

Now my answer to a non-Pakistani who seems to support the “underdog”:

There is a clear distinction in in our minds between the people of pakistan, the civil government of pakistan and the culprits(ISI, terrorists etc).
India supports democracy and stability of Pakistan. India does not want to take decisions which affect the people of Pakistan. Eg: Delhi-Lahore bus is still operational,Trade routes are still operational.

Electronic media has been a mess(at least in India). I agree with you on that. It really needs some maturity. But don’t forget Indian electronic media is still young and will learn its lessons.

If India was not partitioned, these terrorist groups wouldn’t have formed! US used Pakistan to form these groups to fight against USSR. Now that it is over Pakistan has happily diverted them towards India.

What happened after 9/11? Now, replace USA with India and Afganisthan with Pakisthan. India demands the Pakisthan government to give back the terror mastermind same way US demanded Bin Laden. Pakistan refuses, the same way Taliban did. But India didn’t declare war against Pakistan the way America did. I hope at least now you understand our motives. We are a peace loving nation. We follow MK Gandhi’s views.
Finally, Kashmir is a part of Republic of India. Pakistan cannot get even an inch of its land.

Posted by yogesh | Report as abusive
 

I would like to bring to the notice of the moderators about some people indulging in abusive language. Sir/Madam, these comments have been written in hindi I am not sure if you understand hindi. Please remove these comments. It doesn’t look good to have these illiterates writing abuses all over your renowned site.

Mr. Peace,

You are the prime example of what pakistan thinks about peace.You call yourself peace and do all sorts of nonsense. please go do this in your back yard and not in the internet.Stop posting nonsense about india, you seem to have the knowledge of a 2 yr old(as someone rightly pointed out!), and have no common sense whatsoever.
Remember one simple rule, before posting something on the internet, read a good newspaper, or some reliable source.

Posted by yogesh | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev
(my apology for late reply)
In response to your question, i believe yes it is correct it is difficult for India to step back now. For Pakistan also, bowing to Indian pressure is no option, both country’s leaderships need to sit down and do introspection. Indian government was very slow to respond to the realities. Pakistani civil society and judges movement made Musharraf Resign. The free and fair elections brought in a democratic government. President Zardari had said Kashmiris fighting in Kashmir are terrorists, that India is not a threat to Pakistan. These remarks were historic. But India did never respond positively. After that Mumbai was a disaster in the making as the peace process was a bridge to nowhere.
At this stage let the two Prime Ministers of both countries sit in two rounds of talks, One In Islamabad and next in New Delhi. Let the countries sign an extradition treaty and hand over fugitives like Dawood Ibrahim, both nations need to work together and cooperate with Interpol and UN. Mediation should be welcomed by countries like, USA, Saudi Arabia which have friendly ties with India and Pakistan both. Only this is the way to move forward. We need leadership and statesmen on both sides.
Thanks

Posted by Umair Malik | Report as abusive
 

Dear Umair
You are the first voice or reason I have heard from the other side of the border and I really appreciate your view point. Terrorists dont have a religion neither any affliation and history has proved it ample times. A disruptive element would disrupt civilised societies one after the other. We saw the way afgansitan went and ceratinly we cant allow democracy, independence and freedom to held hostage by fundamentalism and terrorism. Its the future our nations and children which is at stake. Its about what form of society are we breeding and then handing over to them. Whether we support a society which welcomes the rule of law, reason , a society which is progressive and respects it members and gives them the right to make choices in their life or we end up supporting a society which believes in pre-historic traditions and is against progress, is despotic and fundamentalist the choice is ours but is certainly going to make the life of our kids better or worse. I would urge everyone to believe in democracy and mutual understanding because thats the way we can defeat mindless terrorism and ensure the road of prosperity for both India and Pakistan.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Pritviraj & Indian Bloggers,

This is a small request as a fellow Indian.Don’t try to engage people from country where we can never ever be friends with.While it is essential to co-exist, beyond that strategic interest there is nothing else we should seek rather we should discontinue any kind of interactions with them.A time will come when the victory of truth versus lies will be decided.

As a nation we got to understand there is a government which has mandate from the indian people to take decisions for us.I think that government whether we like it or not has to be strengthened & we need to firmly beleive they would have toiled hard more than any of us can imagine in putting India’s interest ahead.

Our focus should be in pushing the government for right resource allocation for education, social development & integrating various societies. We need to push & ask in the coming elections why a nation of billion people has not made transformational research in science & technology which guarantees international security & also creates new trillion dollar industry. How is it that our energy security is not being plugged.

India had given to the world major scientific discovery like the mathamatical systems, astronomy, medicine so what has gone wrong that we have not been able to become the first in the world in the past 60 years in any major scientific,energy or defence research.Why have we so far not created a export related defense industry or an aircraft industry or a shipping industry.

Corruption is not something common to government alone, there are Private sector companies in india where also it is prevalent,but the beauty is whereever talented people & men with high integrity have joined they have virtually isolated these people.We are in a promising phase as a nation & we will take headon the challenges.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Miglani,

Wrote some comments but never passed through your filter which makes me doubt your intentions. I tried to write because of my faith in REUTERS, nothing else. With a little ability to read between lines, I had thought it was to worth share what I have been lately seeing as a political manipulation of facts by nations. Anyway, Good Bye to your blogs!

Posted by Appu | Report as abusive
 

I am happy that my effort to clear Pakistan position is being noticed and I am happy that my effort to show the truth to world is effective.
I am more than happy to have comments from indians through which they are showing that they turn faces when truth is presented to them.
My country is smaller in size as compare to thiers but we all have the language of truth which the people of thier country doesn’t have.
I proved that success lies in truth – that’s why they have start attacking the personal image and shifted from commenting on article.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

This guy ‘peace’ really looks retarted to me and speaks very much the way , those moron terrorists were speaking to our news channels… I mean he is playing the same old record no matter what evidence is presented or what logic is given .. looks like the guy never grew up its for ppl like him i wrote some time back “laat ke bhoot baat se nahi maante”

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Dear Indians,

When you say “laaton kay bhoot baton say nahen mantay” it means you feel that you are able to use your laat but ur govt proved us on Indian TV channels that” bhonknay walay katetay nahen”

I know your Indian govt is exposed in front of International community & your total media campaign against Pakistan is not successful.

I like all Indian news channels because of there funny videos about Mumbai attack and I feel like watching cartoon movies. you showed the world that Indian media is capable to convert serious incidents into cartoon movies.

Please tell your govt to provide evidence to Indian news channels and they will distribute everyone in the world because from the day 1 Indian TV channels are showing us Indian movie clips as proof.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

@ Peace, Umair, Nasir, Amjad,

We don’t want Pakistan destroyed, we don’t want war with you, we want friendship, above all. We don’t want to tear your country apart.

All we ask you to do is admit is that you have an Islamicist Virus in your country and be willing to move mountains to eradicate radical Islam and hate against India from Pakistan and Pakistani hearts. Can you please do this by not antagonizing us. Please quit preaching hate against Hindus to your children, please stop training suicide bombers, please stop wasting so much money against Military escalations against India.

Please protest against your Madrassas and tell them “We Reject, your policy of Hate and Jihad”…..is there one of you in Pakistan, does even one of you have the heart and the guts to reject Hate and Jihad against any human being on earth with your heart???? Look inside your heart. Is it possible for you not to go one day, without hate against another Non-Muslim???? Is it possible to go one day to Mosque and not have the Imam spew hate against Hindus or non-muslims? Will you please have an anti-hate awakening???

I don’t think the great prophet wanted hate to be perpetuated for all of infinity??? I guarantee you, if you stop hating, even as individuals, your life will slowly begin to approve.

Hate is like a very large weight and stops your spirit from growing. Can you please quit blaming others for your problems????

Can you go one day without hoping destruction and death to Jews, Hindus, Americans or other Kaffirs? Can you grow beyond the basic guidelines provided by the Koran?? As humans, it is our duty to grow beyond the original words of God, otherwise humanity will never progress.

@You guys, can one of you start today, to stop hating? If you try from your heart, I guarantee, by the will of the Great God almighty and merciful, you will see heaven all around you and god’s love all around you in little, subtle ways. You will see that hate consumes those around you, like a large weight and never leaves you think beyond the hate.

Can you please try to set the hate aside for one day, with your heart and really try?

If you choose not to set aside hate, you will be playing a dirty trick on yourself and be tricked into believing that its someone else’s fault.

The IBLIS and his tireless JINN do not want you realize the Grand Secret of this all…That peace and love is in the control of your heart, if you choose it. If you choose the path of peace and love, unconditionally against all humans, which are God’s creations, you have taken the first step to something truly great, something even the Great Prophet, could not contemplate in his grand wisdom at that time, in the situation he was in.

Inshallah – Jai Raba

Posted by Use your heart | Report as abusive
 

Look here, my friends from India, Pakistan and all over. We can keep going on and on and on and on till we’re all blue in the face OR we can come to the root of this dissent and solve the underlying problem once and for all.

In fact, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, and please pardon my borrowing a line from the 1st Clinton run, but it is indeed:

THE KASHMIR PROBLEM STUPID!

The sooner India, the world’s biggest democracy, shakes off it’s positive allergy to SERIOUSLY discussing this important issue fully and finally (remember the Kashmiri plebisite?) the sooner the that WHOLE region and by extension, the West can feel safer. Our courageous Musharraf and his multi one-way unanswered gestures (how unfortunate) may have left the scene, but PLEASE understand this:

Cosmetic and mere lip service CBM’s, stubbornly refusing to include a chorus of near impatient 3rd party mediators (US PRES. OBAMA being the latest) with the real hope that the issue will somehow be swept under the rug by the passage of time are a waste of both time and money. Ain’t going to happen.

HEEEELLLLLOOOOO????

Indian friends, is your government listening? We REALLY do need to stop putting the cart before the horse!

Posted by N. Javed | Report as abusive
 

@N. Javed

Well spoken, if India gives up Kashmir, Pakistan should be willing to give up Balochistan, NWFP, Swat, Sindh, Punjab, or another other ethnic region. Once you have chosen which part of Pakistan you would be willing to give up for the sake of self-rule and autonomy, I promise, I will tell India to let go of Kashmir.

So, please just keep it shut.

Posted by Equalizer | Report as abusive
 

Dear Amjad and other people of pakistan first things firts
1) Stop harping about the proof of mumbai attacks again and again. The proofs have been provided to your government by not only Indian agenicies but by American and British agencies as well. Go through some news to open you eyes.
2) We recently conducted free and fair elections in kashmir where the sepratist forces didnt get peoples support.People in valley have realized that it is their goodwill to be with free, democratic and liberal India.
3) If it was only about Kashmir then why bomb blasts in UK, USA Spain? and why is that Afganistan is ravaged? and let me tell you the face of terrorism and its identity is same behind each incident.
4)Another issue raised is “bhonknay walay katetay nahen” well the Indian govt is a responsible govt and it doesnt want unnecc loss of civilian life if the issue can be solved diplomatically but it seems Pakistan is not complying and trust me by doing so it inviting an attack .Let me tell everytime you can’t run and hide behind America sooner or later your ‘daddy’ will stop protecting you. so Grow up.
5) Last but not the least ” Kooyen se bahar nikalo, kooyen ke medhak” learn, get educated and improve your way of life go to schools and not some prehistoric stuck up madarsa. Its only the you will realize that acts of terror are not cartoon movies, you a##hole.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

N. Javed
‘(remember the Kashmiri plebisite?)’
—No Prob, prepare Pakistan,your country to also declare it in the POK & Northern Areas…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Dear N.Javed
When u say problem is Kashmir you should also ponder on why the problem is there. The problem has been not Kashmir but your govt and it sagencies who for vested interests wanted to occupy kashmir. And whats the logic because it is muslim dominated then by that logic very soon you will be talking about occupying Saudi Arabia as well.
so to clear your doupts :
1) Kashmir is not one geographical or etnical area, it comprises Hindu dominated Jammu and Buddhist Ladhak as well.
2) To answer your query on Plebicite ,Over the years terrorists sponspered by pakitan have serially and brutally murdered people in Kashmir and specially Hindus and Sikhs. Part of Kashmir is occupied by Pakistan and China, how can then be there be a free and fair plebicite??The dynamics of the regional population has been changed through brutal mass murders and exodus of other ethnicities!!!
3) Why should there be a plebisite? the King of kashmir and its council which represented the population, themselves conceded to join Indian Union.
4) The politics of the region created a Faux-pas that led to a situation where pakistan started fuelling seperatist sentiments to serve its vested interests.
5) Last and most important thing your president hiself has admitted before the world media that Pakistan has problems, it has a cancer in its society which is not only harming the world but pakistan as well
6)Now is the time for you friends to wake recognize and deal with situation at your home.Your nation has become a breeding ground for facists and terrorists, dont let that happen it will prove to be an “aasteen ka saamp” for u. wake up friend before its too late.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Prithviraj,

This is what I was expecting from Indian peoples and I know you peoples are not able to face realities.
1. If you have any proof give it clearly & don’t confuse things, give evidence to you media so show us and give it clearly. Our govt says there is no evidence provided by Indian, INTERPOL says no evidence, FBI says no evidence.
If the evidence is only to believe what your govt says then its not possible because your past is not good with Pakistan.

Now coming back to the Kashmir point, sooner or later you will realize that it’s not possible to keep peoples without their will, the problem for you modern peoples is you are living on settled stats of India like Mumbai, Delhi and other states and you can’t see how your military is dealing with Kashmir’s, enjoy your TV channels watching free and fair elections but reality is different.

Now coming to your loose talk at the end I will say that this is not your fault, first you are fundamentalist Hindu who hates Muslims and fearing from Muslim population in India increased +50% of total population.

Last but not the least “Tu halal ka bacha ho nahen sakta aur Hindu kabhi sacha ho nahen sakta”

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Amjad
The last line you said explained everything about your mentality. I dont think people in pakistan would understand, elected government, democracy and accountability because you never had all these things to start with. Pakistan is on the brinks of being a failed state. Your government is going back and forth on statements. Do you guys have anything as independent educated media in your state?? I dont think so. Try watching CNN, BBC etc. and I guess you missed the topic of this blog on reuter. The Blog is “Pakistan Now or Never” the question is simple when will guys start cleaning the crap you have created. Dont Argue with us on Kashmir , look what have you and your army has dome in bangladesh and what is your state doing in NWFP. And let me tell you something more muslims in India are Indians you heard that they are Indians as Indian as i am and they are not one of you, so dont count on them.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

It seems that there’s alot of mudslinging going on between the two sides on this forum, even though the governments are getting cooler.

Can both sides cool down and stop resorting to name calling.

Prithviraj, just one really minor and irrelevant point…we do have a Nobel Prize winner in Abdus-Salam, however he isn’t nationally trumpeted now because of his Qadiyani faith, which is sad. And please cool down with the anti-Pakistani sentiment, likewise for all other Indian friends.

Peace, you are seriously seriously troublesome and self-deluded. The continuous paranoia of unfounded Indian conspiracies (I won’t deny there haven’t been some, just not every day!) shows immaturity. These beliefs is what caused the ISI to wreck havoc in the region of which now we are suffering a militant blow-back. You’re propagating more harm than reason, if at all. I wish I could talk to you face to face to explain why your beliefs are superstitious. For the meanwhile please practice some introspection and avoid posting.

N.Javed…any chance of being Nusrat Javed the journalist? Anyways our country is mired in a militant backlash. I have yet to hear them ask the Pak government anything in regards to Kashmir. No, the problem between India and Pak is Kashmir, which will only get rid of part of regional instability, but the problem with Pakistan is a surge of Wahabi/Deobandi/Salafi extremism (which is a global problem) with different agendas (Kashmir,Afghanistan,Sharia Law,etc) and a lack of high critical standards from already established educational institutions. Add the list of poverty, security, corruption, etc. How much do you want to bet there’ll be attack on a Shia Muslim procession or Imambargah during this month of Muharram? I doubt that’ll be a statement for Kashmir.

Amjad, again cool down with the anti-Indian sentiment and don’t stereotype. Indian media was horrid, but its sickening to compare disturbing images to a cartoon which shows a lack of class and inhumane.

I’m generally harsher on my own compatriots though many posts from the Indian posters have stung. I like to demand higher quality of posts than what I’ve been reading. Its important for Pakistani posters to self reflect. Lets admit there’s a problem. Stop being concerned with India doing this or that. I disagree with many things happening there but why bother crying foul and bring up the past just to get a one up? This advice is also useful for the Indian posters.

I’ve opened myself up to criticism and a backlash. I hope most realize I’m just trying to cool down this forum.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Saf
I admire your efforts and voice of reason is what is needed at this hour from both sides.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Dear Saif,Pirthivi

I appreciate your efforts to cool down the situation but getting sentiments by media and doing negative internet campaigns against Pakistan by Indians is the reason we are here to defend ourselves.

on every post from Indian peoples they blame ISI, jihad, my country, my govt and when I told them the problem on their side he said don’t talk about Kashmir, WHY NOT they are killing peoples because they need freedom and everyone knows so there is no point to hideout.

Indian govt along with Indian peoples are damaging our image with their fake reports, propagandas, having 10 steps theory on Indian channels that how they will control Pakistan and u need us to stop from what.

I fully support peace between both countries but not in the terms of our respect, within 1 hour Indian media said the attackers are from Pakistan & Indian govt also supported.

My Indian friend is calling CNN and BBC independent channels and I think everyone knows how much independent they are, if u call them independent channles then u doesn’t know anything.

We are proud that Pakistani channels are better than your Indian channels showing all the time war hysteria and having Indian movie clips as proofs.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Amjad,

I totally understand the frustration, bhai. Certain posters like Om and Raj’s comments have stung me hard too. You have a right to defend yourself. Likun (But) not with Aggression.

Calling tragedy a cartoon is low brow and poor or a very ‘Mela’ thing to say. We should defend ourselves absolutely. But not like that. You must use rationality in your posts when making serious arguments. Its a sign of education, discipline, maturity and prestige. Hey, I’m not perfect, but I try my best to stay above the fray. Why purposely hurt people’s sentiments?

Then there was your comment calling all Hindus liars. It may fly in Pakistan, but in truth it is a racist comment. As well as a sign of weak stance on your topic attacking a people’s integrity (there are times to attack a person’s integrity but that’s a debate lesson in itself) and hence lose credibility. It gets hot, yes, but don’t punch below the belt. Always keep your standards high. Remember Faith, Unity, Discipline.

Many moderate Indians have criticized the unprofessional sensationalist reporting that went on too. And yes, there’ll be some Indian dudes saying, it was perfect. You can’t change that.

I absolutely know how bad the Indian media was. I was watching Star News or something when it broke. My God, there was a man screaming and telling us what he was seeing. I thought he was the Reporter on the ground and got shot and going hysterical…only to find out it was the anchorman in the studio screaming! It was horrid and pathetic. He absolutely took advantage of our fears and sensationalized it. How bad for the cameraman’s family and others.

But if they were knee jerk, so were we. I mentioned before, a so called senior ‘professional’ journalist on AAJ TV, kept on blaming RAW, at the same time kept complaining of ‘no proof’ of India’s claims. If you didn’t have proof of anything then how can you place blame on some other agency, then? That’s not reporting that’s conspiracy mongering (which the Indian media was also accused of earlier).

What do you think an Indian is going to feel watching that? It cuts both ways. Both of our media’s must improve. But I’m proud of our media too. It has come a long way baby! Remember the days of PTV and NTM…OMG!

Let’s not kid ourselves, Amjad. Lets take some responsibility. You and I both know the shadiness and how the ISI operated. The whole world is accusing us. And do you really want to deny it even after all that’s happened? We also know from many sources of rogue ex-army and ex-ISI agents, as well as some who may still be employed. We have a militant problem and we shouldn’t be afraid in discussing it.

Yes, Kashmir is something many Indian posters don’t want to touch. You and I know there’s more at stake. But why get frustrated? The issue and problem is 60 years old. You can go ahead and criticize the Indians and they can go ahead criticize us. Mud slinging didn’t help then, mud slinging isn’t going to help us now. Do not get too upset when someone is not willing to talk. Sometimes people come around sometimes people don’t and deny. In fact I feel the same way when I talk to my Pakistani friends about some controversy about Pakistan, they shriek and don’t want to talk about it either. Should I swear at them? No. But if someone isn’t talking about the Kashmir issue, don’t stop trying, there is always someone willing to talk, just be respectful. As you can see Pirthvi was hot and could have just blasted me. He cooled down instead. (thanks Pirthvi)

What would constitute an independent channel Amjad? How about independent newspapers? There are stories in newspapers too of possible involvement. Our DAWN newspaper is reporting a recorded tape of one of the suspected militants phone calls being handed to Pakistan by the US as evidence. Its unclear whether it was a US recording or an Indian recording which was passed through them. Most have agreed it is legible and our authorities are getting ‘convinced’.

Our image is damaged because it reflects ground realities. Nothing an Indian can say is going to change it. And if our image is damaged why be envious of India’s growth? I’m upset they bypassed us, but I’m not the type who likes to see a neighbors house burn down because mine was smaller. Let’s just build a better or bigger house or move into one. Let’s work for it. I thought India’s politicians tone was disrespectful and mean. But why hold a grudge? They just got screwed. We’ve been screwed too. Let’s find the source. Sadly its pointing our direction. Lets get these rascals and make sure they don’t mess with us or our image again. Of course I’m totally against any Indian Strike. It’ll halt only if we’re serious with our own problems, which if you notice is happening.

I’m sorry if I was harsh, Amjad. Shayd Meray Ghalti Tha (Perhaps it was my mistake) that I’m mentioning this publicly on blog posts. I’m not exactly sure how I can Private Message someone. I’m critical of my countrymen because I care and demand the best. Practice Discipline in your Posts and keep Standards High. When you are arguing minimize your emotions and fight with rationality and maturity. You will notice your credibility amongst (most) posters will Sky Rocket and chats will be smoother and cooler. Hope this helps. Thanks. Sorry for the long post…again!

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Dear Saf, ( SAY PAKISTAN ZINDAABAD)

My friend I am not aggressive and I assure you that we are not an aggressive nation because our religion is religion of peace and we totally believe on it.

You said calling cartoon is a low and mela thing but my friend while watching their proofs of Indian clips with very funny audio it feels like a cartoon movie and this is what I feel and may be you disagree with me because this is your right to agree or disagree.

You said I called all Hindus liars but my friend this is a quote from someone maybe was hurt by some Hindu but this doesn’t reflects on Pakistan and we have also Hindus in our country and they are very nice peoples. Every Pakistani believes on faith, unity and discipline but we also know that there is one thing called respect and this is what we are expecting from our neighbors.

You said there are many Indians criticized Indian reporting but I never seen anyone in my entire life criticizing there wrong things but they always try to prove that they are right especially for my country. I am proud that being a Pakistani you are still defending Indians and this show how peaceful and understandable we are.

Yes Indian media played a very bad roll on the entire situation but there is no one from India saying this on this blog. I can understand camera man’s family suffering but it doesn’t allow Indian channels and Indian peoples to blame on Pakistan.

About blaming on Indian RAW you are saying only AAJ TV but in India there is every single channels blaming on ISI and Pakistan and this proves how they feel about us. Yes we have proofs about RAW involvement in Balochistan and soon our govt is going to UN.

Yes I am proud of our media and we are able to fight against any media wars.

My friend we are not a kid and we also know how other agencies are working but please make a list of accuser on ISI and realize who they are, just write the names of countries who are accusing ISI and see the result by yourselves.

We always welcome anyone who talks based on reality but when our opponent fails he always try to run from the topic. We are ready to talk on every single issue between us but when our opponent accuses then we have no choice but to reply him.

I am sorry my friend but there is no tape from DAWN newspaper and if the recording is done by Indian agencies then this proves its fake because there past proves us how they play with evidences,
On Samjhota express they said its from Pakistan but Hamant karkary found it was someone serving military kernel of Indian army along with RSS killing more than 100 innocent Pakistanis and now karkary is under the grave because he was a honest man.

When Indian parliament was attacked they said Afzal Guru belongs to Pakistan they sent their troops on our borders for 2 year but nothing happened and at the end they found no link with Pakistan. You need us to believe the evidence from Indian but there past is not clear.

I will not agree with you that our Image is damaged because our friend countries are with us and yes when our friends will not support us that day I will say the same thing but we believe on our friends more than our enemies. We are not against Indian growth but growth doesn’t allow anyone to become “GABBAR SINGH”.

You said you are against any Indian strike but there military knows that strikes against Pakistan is not possible because we are capable to re-strike and then this will be deadly for both sides.

No my friend this is not your mistake because I totally understand who you are and the way you wrote on your post I totally understood about you. You know we Pakistanis are capable to understand peoples by their words and your words are not like us.

I am sorry to say that changing a name to SAF will not help you Indians to do negative propagandas against Pakistan.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Hi Saf
I really like your line of thought and argument.I guess if we have more people thinking like you in Pakistan, we will be able to deal with the whatever issues exist between us sooner than later. though I hate to say this but your fellow countryman Amjad is a seriously ‘self deluded cartoon’ he proved this by his last post again. I will again request him to grow up and come up with mature posts.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Dear Pirthivi,
Do you think that after hearing from your govt, your channels and from you peoples in the internet against my country anyone can believe on you?

If one attack from someone is effecting on our so called friendship then it’s better to be enemy forever because friendship with India is not healthy for us and we Pakistani doesn’t trust you anymore.

We have problem with your government but we know that Indian peoples are like us and they want friendship with Pakistan. We need a friendship on the basis of respect for each other.

When we have joint mechanism between Indian and Pakistan to fight against terrorism then why your government went to UN and asking others for help. Indian and Pakistan are neighbors and we will live on this region forever and no one has choice to change neighbors so why you didn’t took this incident as test case to strength our friendship other then damaging.

Today the evidence provide by you to FBI which was the ID card of the attacker found a duplicate and they said there is no record + card itself is duplicate and not issued by NADRA Pakistan.

Now the peace process is already damaged and no trust between both nations and it needs more 8 to 10 years to come on the same position when it was before the attack. No tell me who is wrong now Pakistan or India.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Dear Amjad
This time i felt you spoke from your heart and so will I. As you rightly said that no one wants tension building up in sub continent as both the neighbours are nuclear armed. Its few politicians who will decide but the fate would be decided for lot of innocent civilians. When it comes to what is being served by media in our living rooms then i take that with a pinch of salt. I agree with u when you say some channels totally dramatise it but my friend the issue is there are channels in india like Times Now or CNBC which are first of all independent in their views and secondly give the news as it is and they dont dramatise it. So you should realize that, as I do, that some channels might be feeding you on half baked truths in your country and speaking the language of your agencies.
Well now coming back to what is being said. I will tell you why no Indian is buying your argument on proofs. Because the news we see here tells that not only Indian govt but so also US and Uk governments have supplied Pakistan govt with proofs. But Pakistan is hesistant to act for the reason it knows better. Here we get to see panel discussions in which not only international strategist from UK and Israel but even your ex army chief was invited and we see him dwindling and not being able to give clear cut answer when he is asked questions.
We get to see that USA has asked Pak to handover LeT chief to India but pakistan is not complying.
We get to see coverages on militant training camps in pakistan.
We see your president making one statement one day and completely opposite statement the other day in front of media and the camera .
Statements about agreeing to send ISI cheif to India then going back on it. Agreeing to arrest LeT chief then going back on it. Dawood is known to be in karachi but pakistan govt denies to hand him over. Russian intelligence confirmed his role in mumbai attacks then also he is not arrested and handed over india.
You talk of one attack there several attacks ,there are people dying every now and then and dont you think that is going to make an average Indian angry? when we know that its pakistani agencies and organisation operating out of pakistan who is supporting them . We know that an average pakistani citizen is not unfriendly or a terrorist.But my friend what you should realize that the political, economical and ethnical position in pakistan is such that it has become a breeding ground for terror. Who doesnt know about Taliban operatives in Pakistan. If they are not there then tell me why does USA fires rockets and missiles inside pakistan’s territory. If the terrorists and taliban is not their then against whom US forces are fighting in Pakistan. If you talk about Kashmir I will ask u a similar question that just because there are insurgents in un-ruly NWFP who wants its independence would you suggest your govt to give independence to NWFP or would want your army to control insurgency so that the pakistan as a nation remains intact.
If you are able to answer all those incomfortable questions then my friend come to me and we will talk. If you talk about trust , tell me how do we trust Pakistan when we know that most terror attacks are sponsored from your soil. and am not saying your government is doing it. But as i said the conditions in pak are such that democratic govt no matter how good intentioned is not in control. U can listen to the twisted stories that your media tells you or try some independent research on internet to get un biased view.choice is yours. Arguing with me, blaming me or trying to prove me wrong wont change ground realities.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Prithviraj,

your latest post is a good initiative. The link below gives a good idea of the media hysteria.

http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn %20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/ the+medias+role+in+war+and+peace–il

Posted by saf | Report as abusive
 

Dear Pirthivi,

You said maybe some Indian channels dramatize the situation and right after you said our channels are speaking the language of our agencies. This is the reason what I am fighting for that by words you realize your mistake but again finding a point to blame on the Pakistani Agencies.

My friend you said you can’t believe our arguments and proofs from US and UK govt are supplied to Pakistan, but my friend do you feel that anyone can believe on proofs from these countries in Pakistan.

The recent example is IRAQ where they have proofs but after doing all the things they accepted that they were wrong, you said you invited some ex-army chiefs from Pakistan in channels and they were not able to answer your questions but my friend they answered as per there view and if you feels right answer is to support whatever you say then you are wrong, and by the way what is the definition of right Answer?

I watched so many Indian channels and I know what they ask to all Pakistanis either its politician, army man or anyone, one Indian anchor asked one politician from Pakistan that we have evidence but Pakistani govt is not doing things the way Indian want, then he replied that here we are talking about cooperation between both countries and we already offered joint investigation where no one can blame anyone and they will have full right to act as independent investigation. The Indian anchor said but we have the proofs and need that Pakistan should act as per the evidence provide, the Pakistani politician said but we need to know and need to check the source of evidence and the authentication and she replied but we need Pakistan should hand over the list of the peoples provided by India. Now my point is if this is the way to find the cooperation then I am not sure anyone will be happy to cooperate.

The second interview was on last Tuesday on NDTV one lady anchor asked one Pakistani politician that we have evidence but your govt is not acting responsibly and while he was replying the answer she argued with him 7 to 8 time and asking continuously different answer and then politician replied I feel that I am the anchor and you are talking more than me, let me to have my point of view and then she said thanks for your talking. If this is the way to get answers then I don’t think it’s a right way.

There are many interviews I have seen and never found any single interview without this behavior, when your member of parliament said we have some doubts on the Himanat Karkary murder(the ATS chief killed on attack) and he said that we should investigate, everyone in India said he is with Pakistan and he is talking the language of Pakistan, why you have problems with investigations, why your agencies are fearing from his murder investigation, he is the one who captured one serving Indian military officer found guilty in killing more than 50 Pakistanis on Samjhoota express and they burned the entire train because there were Pakistanis.
His killing proves that there are some elements behind his murder and maybe behind the whole attack on Mumbai.

Now coming back that US asked Pakistan to handover LeT chief to India, first of all that the govt has no idea where he is, he is banned in Pakistan from 2001 and they are also looking for him.

Secondly, suppose if we found him there is no agreement between Indian and Pakistan to handover prisoners and it needs to be trail in Pakistan with your provided evidence.
Coming back to the coverage you have seen training camps in Pakistan are in TV videos only and our agencies are not allowing any training camps.

Talking about Dawood Ibrahim in Karachi and our govt is denying, my friend if u know where he is please tell us the full address not just he is in Karachi and capture him. Your govt always come up with clues without proof , give us details other than using these names to blackmail us internationally. If Russian intelligence knows ask them where he is and give us full details not by media.

You said that Pakistan is becoming a ground of terror activities but my friend you know how we are suffering from the terror activities and our army more than 150k is fighting with Taliban’s and extremists. Everyone is safe in the world because of us and specially your country because if we not fight against them the first country to enter for them is India. We are fighting bigger operation then 1971 war between India and Pakistan but at return we have attacks from US, blackmailing from your govt and so many problems but we are not giving up and are fighting for everyone, we have lost more soldiers then any country in the world against this fight.

My friend, if anyone from NWFP asks for independents from Pakistan I swear to God that Pakistan will not keep them and the truth is we will not be able to keep them with us without their will and I am sure you have no idea about the peoples from that area. For your information most of the peoples in our military are from NWFP and now decide how they feel about their own country.

On Kashmir issue your point is irrelevant, because there is UN resolution passed by UN to have referendum in Kashmir to allow them what they want. We don’t want Kashmir but we need you to have free and fair referendum in Kashmir under UN to see what they want, let kashmiris to decide what they want.

For your information your Prime Minister Mr.Nehro went to the UN on Kashmir Issue and UN passed the resolution against India. You should remember how you cheated on Kashmir on 1947 and take over the area so you have no right to say that it’s a part of India.

At the end you said the entire terror source in India is from Pakistan and we have the same feeling and some examples are SARABJIT SINGH who found guilty and said he is from RAW doing bomb attacks on early 80’s, we have proofs about RAW interference in Balochistan and many more.

This is what I want to say, you peoples are only watching Indian media to believe on, I am not arguing with you but I am here to clarify about your wrong propaganda against my country.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Amjad
U tried to build a case against pakistant but my friend its a weak case for following reasons
1) U say since pakistan is fighting Taliban, therefore world is a safer place !!! Would u mind answering me who gave birth to Taliban?? I will tell you it was pakistan!! and let me tell you that even today your agencies dont want taliban to lose, because an unstable afganistan is in their strategic interest.
2) Read my post properly i had said ‘your’ media is speaking the language of your agencies and not Indian media. Media in India is free and they take on the Indian establishment also when its needed.
3) Last and most important point ,referundum on Kashmir in UN has certain clauses which are
Plebicite will take place when :-
a) Pakistan withdraws its forces to where they were before 1947
b) Indian troops will remain only to the extent of maintaining law.
and for your information UN sec general himself said that UN referendum on Kashmir is dead for all pratical purposes why, I will tell you
1) Pakistan never withdrew its forces
2) Pakistan supported terror outfits in kashmir
3)China occupied a part of kashmir
4) Pakistan illegally gifted a part of PoK (pakistan occupied Kashmir) to China
5) Due mass murder of Hindus and kashmiri pandits which was done on purpose to change the demographics of the region so that the vote doesnt swing in india’s favour .
6) and most Important, who is Pakistan to promote Kashmir’s independence ?? If u say Pakistan has no interest in kashmir then why at all you are bothered whether they are free or not ?? are you UN??
If you are so supportive of freedom struggles then why doesnt Pakistan support the freedom struggle of Tibet,??? where tibetians are fighting against chienese domination!!no you wont do that …

You are happy if US and UK want to mediate in kashmir issue but you object if they give you proofs of your involvement in mumbai terror attack, dont you think thats double standards ??

Amjad, Pak had a history of unstable govt, political assasinations and military unsurping the power. You should realize that its in your army’s interest to fuel hostility with india, because that way they can ensure and justify there being in power.

I will tell you why was mumbai attacked and all the war hysteria build by your army so that part of the forces from the afgan border can be moved to indian border and therefore USA’s war against Taliban suffers there and Taliban gets a chance to strengthen itself.

Today if you are suffering from terror then am sorry but you are suffering becasue of your own wrong doings and because of the terror outfits that Pak has created. Those outfits are now beyond your control. Its like a cancer which is engulfing your society because you were irresponsible and you created an infection for others, which is now turning against you as well. Because terrorist my friend have no religion, no value for human life, and the whole world is also suffering because of that.

and like I said dont depend on your news channels or our news channels do some independent research.Blaming Indians wont help you, recognizing and correcting your mistake certainly would.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Dear Pirthivi,

I am glad to see different stories everyday from your side and your work hard to prove your points but my friend your points about Kashmir for UN resolution are totally wrong, UN resolution asked Indian to remove their forces from Kashmir and so on…..

I know you peoples are good trained for negative propagandas and this is a habit of every Indian to prove his points if its against Pakistan.

I have found one thing from our whole conversation that you guys are impossible, because your dramatic theories never ends and you always try to change the truth and hijack the situation like you are doing now with Mumbai attacks.

Posted by Amjad | Report as abusive
 

Dear Amjad,
I am sorry to say but you live in a make believe world which is also called “fool’s Paradise” ..so get educated. I have simply stated facts which are very much verifiable.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

Amjad , which Kashmir are you talking about ? Under what authority are you talking about Kashmir? While talking about Kashmir, dear friend Amjad, we must not forget that Kashmir has so many divisions , whether you are talking about Kashmir under occupation of Pakistan or the part which has been gifted to China ? The recent elections have shown that all those people talking about plebscite in Kashmir should mind their own business. People of Kashmir are capable of solving their own problems. Whether plebiscite or no it will be decided by the people of Kashmir ,they have also shown to the world that they have not given any right to advocate or champion their causes .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

Dear Sreehari So close to the point. Just few question away from the whole truth. Who will benefit from this war or current situation? Why when india and pakistan are getting closer something happens? Who was the real power behind gandhi family assassinations and why? Mark Twain said and i quot him”If you don,t follow media,you are uninformed and if you follow media you are misinformed.Banking system controls the world and media is their covert hit man. Check jfk,mlk,rfk and a lot of other assassinations in the world, and why they were killed?Go find the truth behind viet nam war,american mexican war, american spanish war and so on. There is no substitute for peace and love, if any one found it, let me know too. GOD BLESS YOU ALL…

Posted by abdali | Report as abusive
 

i really appreciate the comments by saif.i think ,amjad is still taking mumbai strikes as a india – pakistan issue. i agree there are extremists are present in india but they are present in any other country too.
we indians would like to have a stable neighbour and not a neighbour under military control. for this we need to have friends like saif. pakistan should realise that they have turned to a “terrorist state” with larger areas not under government control. pakistan is now too a victim of terror and india and world have a right to defend themselves.
moreover a country which has the blessing of ram ,allah ,jesus ,gurunanak ,buddha has no fears. may good sense prevail in both country

Posted by swaraj | Report as abusive
 

Lot are being said here about Kashmir, India and Pakistan, many commentators have tried to highlight the fact that since Pakistan is also victim of terrorism , but the points to ponder that if your house is burning , shall you put your neighbours house on fire, since Pakistan is victim of terrorism, will that mean Pakistan will export terrorism to India, if Pakistan is victim of terrorism , for this situation Pakistan and its people are responsible , they were fighting proxy wars by creating various terror outfits on behalf of their clients in US, Saudi Arabia etc ,for this present mess in Pakistan, the sole responsibility lies with the people and govt of Pakistan . How Pakistan can justify the terror attacks in India by terror outfits based in Pakistan.

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

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Thanks , I have recently been looking for info about this topic for a long time and yours is the greatest I’ve found out so far. However, what about the conclusion? Are you positive in regards to the supply?

 

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