India – aiming for diplomatic encirclement of Pakistan?

December 26, 2008

India is piling on the diplomatic pressure to convince the international community to lean on Pakistan to crack down on Islamist militants blamed by New Delhi for the Mumbai attacks.

According to the Times of India, “India has made it clear to the U.S. and Iran as well as Pakistan’s key allies, China and Saudi Arabia, that they need to do more to use their clout to pressure Pakistan into acting…” The Press Trust of India (PTI), quoted by The Hindu, said India had used a visit by Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal to Delhi to drive home the same message.

As discussed previously on this blog, in the immediate aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, India’s response was to look to the United States to put pressure on Pakistan. It also appears to have won some support from Russia, whose officials said publicly that the attacks were funded by Dawood Ibrahim, an underworld don who India says lives in Pakistan. China, Pakistan’s traditional ally, supported the United Nations Security Council in  blacklisting the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the charity accused of being a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba.  China’s Foreign Minister has also telephoned his counterparts in India and Pakistan urging dialogue, according to Xinhua

And to complete the tour of the permanent members of the Security Council, Britain blamed Pakistan-based militants for the Mumbai attacks, while France has also called on Pakistan to take action.

That’s a fairly broad consensus in favour of diplomatic pressure. There certainly seem to be more players more visibly involved than in 2001/2002 when India and Pakistan came to the brink of war over an attack on the Indian parliament that India blamed on Pakistan-based militants. You might therefore be tempted to argue that the diplomatic approach is working — and as long as this stands a chance, the prospects of military escalation are slim.

So what is going wrong? Despite the flurry of diplomatic activity, the military tensions are rising.  Pakistan has cancelled army leave and redeployed troopsThe Washington Post said thousands of troops were being redeployed from the Afghan border to the border with India.

Are the two countries’ armies simply making sure they are prepared, just in case the diplomatic efforts fail? Or is there more going on behind-the-scenes?

90 comments

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Whats going wrong??

There are two centers of power in Pakistan the elected government and the army, come to think of it there is only one center of power and its the army..

Pak army is trying to generate a buzz to neautralize the diplomatic pressure on pakistan civilian administration. It would be intresting to see if India falls prey to the trick and responds in kind, I would hope not.

An important point is being made the troop deployment is a clear indication from Pak army to let the americans know that Pak army alone is the supreme authority and is in no mood to take orders fro US government.

A change of some sort is on cards in Pakistan, civilan government shape up or some political assination in the next few months.

Its sad to see the dominos fall in Pakistan..

Posted by belligerent | Report as abusive

Myra,

Pakistan’s civilian government was initially very open and ready to help India. However, it was reined in by the military establishment in Rawalpindi and that was that.

The real question is – why are all world powers willing to line up behind India to such an extent?

The answer is – This is no longer an India-Pakistan issue.

LeT and the alphabet soup of jihadi groups still thriving in Pakistan with various levels of state support or benign neglect now pose a direct threat to the whole world. Just in 2008, I counted over TWO DOZEN major terror plots or terror attacks in US, UK, Europe and Australia that were traced back to Pakistani groups like the LeT, JeM etc.

The escalation is happening because the Pakistan army knows that it can no longer defy world pressure and therefore needs a distraction. The Generals in Pindi seem to believe that as long as the world fears a war in South Asia, Mumbai will be all forgotten. That has been the case with past attacks.

I think Mumbai is different and Pakistan is close to the time it needs to pay the piper.

Posted by Rajat | Report as abusive

Myra,

One more thing. The “we are moving troops from the Afghan front to face India” thing is a clear blackmail attempt by the Pakistan army to push the US to make India back off. I’m sure the Americans are telling Delhi to not push things militarily but they will not succumb to crude blackmail.

Sadly, Pakistan has gone back into denial mode and we are seeing reports that Islambad denies that the surviving bomber is a Pakistani, even after several Pakistani journalists and a TV station proved his Pakistani identity conclusively. Geo TV showed his neighbors saying that Kasab came home four months ago and boasted of jihadi training. His parents have now “disappeared”

Posted by Rajat | Report as abusive

There are some pretty concrete reasons for Pakistan’s mistrust of India’s claim that the Mumbai terrorists were Pakistani. There are 3 instances of terrorism in the past involving India which were blamed on either terrorists from Pakistan or the Pakstani government, but later were found not to be true.

In 2000, while President Clinton was visiting India, there was a terrorist attack in Indian Kashmir on a group of Sikhs in a place called Chittisinghpura. It was a horrible atrocity. Islamic militants from Pakistan were blamed and it was played up in the media. A few months later, it came out that the attacks were most probably perpetrated by Hindu militants.

In 2006, the Samhjota Express train carrying Pakistani visitors inside India was attacked and scores of people were killed. For several months, the media and even some Indian government officials put the blame squarely on Pakistan-based Islamic militants. It took over a year for evidence to ascertain that the real culprits to be charged most probably were from a Hindu fundamentalist organization.

Going back a little further in time, I believe in 1970, an Indian airliner was hijacked and forced to land in Pakistan. The hijackers claimed to be Kashmiri freedom fighters and they blew-up the plane on the runway after all the passengers and crew were evacuated. No one was hurt, but they sought asylum and recieved it in Pakistan.
India then prohibited any Pakistani overflights across its territory to the former East Pakistan and that prohibition of its airspace made it easier the next year to defeat Pakistan in the Bangladesh liberation war. But what was truly surprising is that it turned out later that the real identity of the hijackers were those of Indian intelligence agents.

These 3 cases are fairly well-documented and readers can do their own research to verify them for themselves.

Therefore, due to the history of mistrust and erroneous blame, Pakistan is currently unconvinced of Indian evidence that the terrorists of Mumbai are the nationality that India says they are. At that’s why Pakistan is demanding bona fide evidence form India before taking further actions.

I personally feel Pakistan should crack-down on LeT regardless of whether it’s proven that they did the Mumbai massacres or not, beacuse they have been implicated with more concrete proof to be involved in several other attacks on innocent civilians.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Pak is pressing panic button like its playing piano

1. It denies kasab pakistani
2. Pak media exposes kasab is pakistani
3. Pak govt responds by sealing off kasabs villabe for media. Media says it character of Kasab is created by India. THis is typical pakistani mentality. we are not moronic like pakis. If we had same brain as you we could have created Kasab character during 2001 parliment attack.
4. Pak claims it captured one india national for Lahore blast.
5. Again pak media exposes that lahore blast was done by taliban
6. Pak govt responds by they captured 4 indian nationals. My question is why there were no Indian national captured and advertised before 26/11?? We know that they are fictious characters. Can you provide photo of the person captured???? Hahah
7. Now pak is playing another card of pulling troops from Afgan and move to indian border. Lets witness “nanga naach” ( naked dance) of pakistan. WHole world can watch what is happening

Posted by Kuldip Singh | Report as abusive

What more is needed to convince Pakistan of LeT involvement in attacks. The irrationality and ego of the last post indicates that nothing said would convince a country in denial of an obvious example of mass murder. I cannot sympathize with a government like Pakistan which is discounting evidence from not only India, but Britain and the United States. And one thing that everyone knows is when it comes to facts, the west reports them. Whether you like them or not, you must accept them. When people die, the accountable must be found and prosecuted. If denial reigns, then one can justify mass murder of innocent civilians because they are blood coming from the “ENEMY”. This is how Pakistan is acting, and human life is human life whether it is a Pakistani, Indian, or American.

Posted by Watchful | Report as abusive

Pakistan is trying to hoodwink the world by talking about the involvement of Hindu Terrorist Organization. We do not know whether that is true or not but attack on Mumbai was designed , engineered in Pakistan and executed in India. Pakistan , infact has been the hub of so many terrorist manufacturing factories. The country has been a failed state and become a butt of joke on the international arena. Recently Yashwant Sinha , former Indian foreign minister has said that Pakistan is in denial mode to such an extent that if One says that the terrorists are from Karachi , Pakistan Government will say that Karachi is not a part of Pakistan. This country has become a nuisance for the whole world and is a threat to world peace.

Posted by Vinay Syal | Report as abusive

The world must understand and face the harsh reality: the Pakistani sponsored terrorism is not going to end with words. It will never end as long as there is a country called Pakistan, which must wage war, directly or indirectly through terrorism, in order to survive. Destabilization of India and Afghanistan is among the basic “principles” of the terror entity of Pakistan.

What happens next time there is a terror attack in India?
The sooner India acts the better for all of us. Indians should be warned that some American and British Cold War and Great Game fundamentalists have short memories when it comes to Pakistan’s terror activities since her unfortunate and tragic birth in 1947. India should NOT count on West, which will lose Asia because of blindness to Pakistani crimes in Afghanistan and India. West, with America and Britain at the head will soon have to choose between India and Afghanistan on the one hand and the evil British creation called Pakistan on the other.

Terrorism will not go away as long as there is an artificial and colonial entity called Pakistan.

Posted by kabura | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a failed state. There is no distinction between State & Non-state actors. Power free flows from one to another based on financial incentives from it’s sunni paymasters in middle east – namely Saudi Arabia. Each power center in pakistan – ISI, Government & Army feeds on each other through corruption. Money for survival of these power centers flows from middle east. The quickest way to resolve this issue is financial & diplomatic – cut all funds – world bank, NGO assistance and the state’s behavior will change. This State cannot exist alone – it cannot govern itself, protect itself and control it’s own criminals. How & when can it ? It has to broken up for sake of stability of Western, Eastern Asia & Middle east.

Posted by Fatcat | Report as abusive

Pakistan as a country is a complete failed state.. its civilian government can’t even keep track of the terrorist organizations the Pakistani army employs. What moral ground does it hold over India? a nation trying to separate itself from the blunder called Pakistan. The only thing really holding Pakistan up is the large conditional money the U.S send for its fight against the Taliban… and even that is going poorly

The U.S Government should take a serious look at the country it choose to be its “major non-NATO ally”

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive

Myra,

So far, the success of India’s diplomacy has turned on the heat on Pakistan. I think, India, will keep its armed forces on alert despite an ongoing military build-up by the Pakistani army.

Pakistan wants India to respond militarily so that it can divert the world’s attention from the terrorism on its soil to a trivial India-Pakistan dispute. Pakistan knows that if the confrontation begins the world powers will intervene and force a settlement. This does not serve India in its efforts to catch the terrorists behind Mumbai attacks. A war at this time will play in the hands of Pakistani army, which is already getting whipped mercilessly on its western border.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Myra,

You make a glaring mistake at the end of the article. You say, “Are the two countries’ armies simply making sure they are prepared, just in case the diplomatic efforts fail?” after reporting that the Pakistan army has just deployed thousands of troops on its border with India. Where have you seen any deployment by the Indian Army? Where have you seen any kind of trial runs by the Indian Air Force over major cities in India? This is a mass war hysteria being whipped up by the Pakistan Armed Forces to distract their people from the Mumbai terror attacks.

This has been a sinister conspiracy by the Pakistan military establishment to go to war with India and thus deflect the criticism they have been getting at home due to their fight against the Taliban (who wnjor popularity in Pakistan) and their inability to prevent US airstrikes on their soil. They thought that by hitting India hard, they could provoke a military response by the Indian government, thus giving them the perfect excuse to withdraw from an unpopular war against the Taliban and occupy centrestage again as Pakistan’s saviours against India.

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive

Some of the commenters here have some very unrealistic views. Pakistan is not going to go away and there should be a differentiation between Pakistan’s government & people and terrorists residing in Pakistan. These terrorists have killed and maimed 100′s if not 1000′s of Pakistanis too – I think you better keep that in mind. And Benazir Bhutto was one of their main targets. The terrorists who did the terrible deeds at Mumbai, appear to be of the same lot who did the terrorism at the Marriot in Islamabad. I’m not sure of that’s true but it appears to be true and needs to be proven.

Nationalism and rivalry are overlapping the real scourge to both the countries of India and Pakistan which is terrorism.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

To Aleitha,

India does not want to share the evidence with Pakistan first, because she knows the Pakistani response in advance. Instead, India chose to share the evidence with other major powers and build a consensus that will help call Pakistan’s bluff.

The mistrust between India and Pakistan is mutual. History is witness that Pakistan always disowns its own litter – Pakistani nationals in disguise – in the beginning, only to accept it few years later. On several occasions, India has uncovered the Pakistani involvement in disguise, followed by an immediate denial from Pakistan; for example, the wars in Kashmir in 1948 and 1965, the years of Sikh terrorism in the 1980′s, the ongoing Kashmiri infiltration, the Indian Airlines plane hijacking incident at Kandahar in 1999, the war at Kargil in 1999, the India parliamentary attack in 2002 and the Kabul embassy bombings in 2008.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Alethia,

Your statements are blatant lies. Either that or you’re utterly ignorant of the facts and make up your own fairytales to suit your twisted ideology. Let me educate you about those three incidents. The 2000 massacre of Chittisinghpura was carried out by the Lashkar-e-Toiba. There is adequate documented evidence about the fact so much so that Bill Clinton, who erroneously claimed that “Hindu militants” were involved, was severly criticized and the publisher Harper Collins later routed a public apology through Madeleine Albright’s office. The error was said to be due to a mistake in the “fact checking process”.

The 2006 Samjhauta train blast was traced to a serving Indian Army Colonel and 3 others-there was no organised militant group involved, and the initial blame on Pakistan based groups was simply due to the fact that EVERY TERRORIST ATTACK in major Indian cities until then was the handiwork of Pakistan trained and funded terrorists. The Samjhauta attack was the FIRST of its kind EVER to have been carried out by a group espousing Hindu nationalism.

The airline hijack actually took place in 1971, not 1970 and the hijackers were Kashmiri separatists. There is absolutely no doubt about this-the Pakistani government then sentenced 1 of them to 8 yrs imprisonment. Read about that here:

http://terrorism.about.com/od/originshis tory/a/JKNLFHijacking.htm

So please don’t be a Pakistan apologist. Only a pseudo-intellectual like yourself will spin lies and half truths to justify their support for a terrorist state like Pakistan. Pakistan’s support for cross-border terrorism is well known and acknowledged by western intelligence experts. It is because of comments like yours that in the past, Pakistan has not been made to pay for its crimes….

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive

To Alethia,

Alethia,

I dont know where the chittisingpura massacare is well documented to have been carried out by hindu militants. In fact, it is well documented to the contrary of what you say on wikipedia, which explains why people may have the confusion that you do. Still it would take desperate denial to come to the conclusion you do.

For cultural and historical reasons alone, it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY HINDU MILITANT, particularly MILITANTS, to target sikhs. The hardcore hindus think of sikhs as their own and even feel indebted to their gurus, particularly Guru Tegh Bahadur. The sentiment of treating them same as hindus actually becomes offensive to some sikhs, but that is another story.

Posted by Prashant | Report as abusive

To Nikhil: Well if both countries are so distrustful of one another, there should be a neutral party carrying evidence from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India and prosecute the criminals who did the Mumbai attack.

Pakistan said at first they would send the head of their ISI but went back on their word.

The Interpol head said India was not cooperating with sending evidence to it while he said Pakistan was.

What’s the story here?

I would be nice to see the masterminds caught and peace between India and Pakistan. But somebody has to shake these two countries to stop deceiving eachother.

I have no answers for this. I’m frustrated.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Myra,

The great game of deception in Pakistani Media and at International Level is Smoke Screen for real action and on going preparation by PAKISTANI MILITARY.

If war between India and Pakistan is Fought the Looser will be Pakistani Population and Democracy. The winner Will be China- If war is Fought it will not be for Defense of Pakistani JIHADIS OR PAKISTANI POPULATION BUT A PROXY WAR FOR CHINA that’s my take.

The unintended beneficiary will be VARIOUS JIHADI GROUPS.
LOOSER WILL BE PAKISTAN AS A NATION FALLING APART IN TIME to FIVE SMALL NATIONS.

Real intelligence is Missing at this time, lots of Smoke Screen, But Facts are Pakistani ARMY IS MOVING IT’S MANPOWER AND EQUIPMENTS TO EASTERN BORDER.

Posted by Mahendra Patel | Report as abusive

Alethia,

I do agree that pakistan too is a victim and in the case of war it will hurt the normal people the most on both sides of the border.

The terrorists are usually the local goons who have found inspiration. These people then cause trouble for every one.
Unfortunately in pakistan the source of inspiration has become a misinterpreted islam aided by defence strategies of ISI. In India too there are trouble making groups for whom the source of inspiration comes from the naxal, communist ideals and sometimes from regional aspirations. Nevertheless TERRORISTS are INSPIRED GOONS no more.

Posted by Prashant | Report as abusive

The United States will Gain in the long run if India and Pakistan go to war. They will support India which is a much stronger ally in the not to distant war with China. It will also give the US a free hand in Pakistan the only nuclear Muslim nation and it will further isolate Iran and force Saudi Arabia to deal with own extremist and become Americas puppet with no political agenda other than pro-US which will lead to the US having a monopoly on crude oil

Posted by Triple C | Report as abusive

The so called strategic thinker’s controlling the Pakistani Army and ISI fail to understand one basic point, these Jihadist radicals are an enormous problem for Pakistan. As a wise man ( Lee Kuan Yew ) mentioned, no matter how powerful the jihadists become they have no hope of capturing India. For Pakistan however it is a very mortal threat which is already happening, witness the Taliban burning schools and murdering girls in Swat valley. They need to fight the Taleban and other jihadist terrorist groups for their own sake, not because of pressure from US, UK or India.

They also need to get over their ir-rational fear of India. It is obvious to everyone that in its own self interest, India wants a stable and prosperous Pakistan.

Indeed if India really wanted to destroy the Pakistani state, then there would be no better way than distracting the Pakistani Army from fighting the Taliban and other terrorist groups. This would ensure those cancerous lunatics will ultimately infiltrate and destroy Pakistan internally.

Posted by firo | Report as abusive

I read with interest comments of firo, he had a great knowledge of Pakistan and its problems.

I think India should go for the later option as mentioned by firo.

I read and saw the nucliar postwar holocaust materials and pictures at the UN Musium in New York few years back.

We have to learn from the history.

Posted by Al Baloushi | Report as abusive

Time is ripe to implement ralph peter plan to redraw middle east . Baluch are united and support India .

Long Live Balochistan,
Death to Pakistan

To Alethia:

From your posts it’s quite evident that you haven’t been following events, and have formed opinions without relevance to facts. Probably the most important piece of evidence are cell phone records and GPS trails collected by both Indian and US investigators. They have been accepted as genuine by every country except Pakistan. And of course you have the confession from the captured terrorist and further details therein. A simple google news search should give you more details. It might also interest you, but claimed home town of this terrorist Qasab has been cordoned off to the media after his confession.

Now any reasonable application of law dictates that this evidence be considered sufficient to initiate further investigation. After all, similar evidence was also provided by FBI or MI5 after 9/11 or 7/7. Unless Pakistani state is somehow involved in a cover up, one fails to understand its intransigent posture.

Making claims about past history doesn’t help your case. Please stick to the Mumbai attacks here.

Posted by Ajay Gupta | Report as abusive

To Alethia,

In response to your comment, all I can say is that the neutral party between Indian & Pakistan is the US. Why the US? Because the US is the patron to the Pakistani army – the central authority in Pakistan – which is responsible for issues related to national security and foreign relations.

Why was the evidence not shared with the Interpol? The Indian government will officially turn in the evidence when the investigation is completed. I doubt anything will come out of it. Dawood Ibrahim’s name is already in the Interpol list for over a decade. However, he lives freely in Pakistan and enjoys his birthdays in his mansion in Karachi.

In my view, no war is going to break out between India & Pakistan. India does not want to engage in any war that will risk derailing its economic growth and social development. However, the generals in Rawalpindi may have other sinister plans; a military coup may be? Time will tell!

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Myra, but it seems that the Indians have exhausted their diplomatic resources, as it is they have always been lacking in it & are rank amateurs in diplomacy in comparison with the highly skilled & Professional Pakistani diplomats…
The real game has now started- as things unfold, it seems the Mumbai attacks were for the benefit of President elect Mr. Obama, a smart reaction to his ‘Attack Pakistan’ election campaign…let’s await the response.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

The real scenario is that the present democratically elected government in Pakistan has little control over the military or the ISI. It is obvious to everyone in the world that the Pakistan military/ISI is actively supporting and breeding terrorism on its soil.

Pakistan is making all this fuss and sensation about increasing its military deployment on its eastern border for very obvious reasons. Firstly it does not want to do anything sincere to dismantle the terrorist inrastructure on its soil. This sensation about military deployment on its border with India will distract international attention from the real issue which is tackling terrorism that is breeding on its soil. And naturally the US and its allies operating in Afghanistan would be concerned about reduction of Pakistani troops on Pakistan’s western border as they are dependent on Pakistan for supplies to their troops.

The US and their allies would have to look for alternate supply routes for their troops. Pakistan is not a dependable ally at all.

Posted by Raghuram | Report as abusive

To Anup,

Obama’s remarks during the election campaign did not imply to invade Pakistan. His remarks are stretched too far in Pakistan, resulting in a stir in the local media. Obama, most likely, will continue what Mr. Bush is doing, that is actively pursuing critical terrorist targets in Pakistan.

You are right regarding the preparedness of Pakistani establishment. It must have taken months to form a strategy before the Mumbai attacks. The Indian diplomats may appear reactive to a situation, especially in the media, but the tables can be quickly overturned.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Alethia,
You seem to quote some attacks with confidence as if it were done by Hindu militants and encourage people to do their own reserch as if it was confirmed by neutral agencies. Have you done your reserch before claiming it is fairly well documented?.You are merely quoting sections of the islamic media rhetoric of fantasitic theories like that of 9/11 where the US govt itself is supposed to have attached the WTO buildings. The so called samjautha conspiracy is built on quotes made recently by unknown officials of the mumbai ATS (which was later denied) as reported in the Indian media. Few arrests made so far are of islamic militants not hindu militants in that case. There have been arrests made in India recently of hindu individuals for a different bomb blast, even this is suspected to be more politically motivated to pander to the muslim votebanks and to prove that there is Hindu terrorism as well (which eventually can be linked to the opposition). We have to wait and see how the investigations conclude. With election around the corner this is a great way to counter the opposition BJP, which is going after the govt on its failure to stop attacks in indian cities in which mostly hindus have died.
All this has changed since, the indian liberal media (which was giving everyday prime time attention to those arrests) along with the govt got a rude shock with the bombay attack and they ended up looking like fools when the pakistan media avered that these were by hindu militants too. The difference in this case was that one of the pakistani mercenaries was caught alive and is singing much to everyone’s embarassement.

Posted by Masesha | Report as abusive

The Very Idea of the existence of Pakistan is based on countering India in every possible sense and way. The only new thing which got added to the existing Doctrines of the state called Pakistan is Terrorism. Its a ‘writing on the wall” that Pakistan has got trapped into(By Musharraf & party) fighting the Taliban along with US, where Taliban itself was created by US and Pakistan, i.e. those who created it, want to eliminate it, which unfortunately is extremely difficult now. Within their hearts Pakistan still wants to keep Taliban alive for their own interests in Afghanistan. The only way, they(Pak Army) could have done it is by diverting the world attention to some other agenda, like the Mumbai Terror attacks. That would serve many purposes, first to say that the Civilian Govt does not have any control and thus assert the Army’s importance. Second to shift their troops away from Taliban and pit them against Indian border. Third ensure the Al-Qaida and Taliban terrorists infiltrate into India under the guidance of their Army cover and thus achieve their long term objective of destabilising India. A fundamentalist state would remain that way for many years, just a handful of countries, even though powerful cant do much. In that too the US has its own limitations, especially after its blunders in Iraq, where it wants to shift the focus onto Afghan issue by pulling along with it, the dis-interested Pak.In my view there is no solution to the problems of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Taliban and Al-Qaida, other than continuously countering them. It is amazing as to how the Pakistan society has mingled so nicely with Taliban and Al-Qaida despite suffering from them on a daily basis, there is no immediate and short term solution to this, it has to be long drawn battle !!

Posted by Jradik | Report as abusive

Nikhil, there are tens of such Mumbai attack types, ready-to-use modules with the Pakistani Army, some deadlier ones right in the heartlands of India & indigenous also, there is no dearth of shortage for them, neither is Obama’s remarks overstretched by the Pak Establishments, but well gauged & aptly responded, do you really perceive ‘actively pursuing critical terrorist targets in Pakistan’ to be different from attacking Pakistan? further, although the Indian Diplomats on the contrary are restraining from rhetoric’s & handling the situation with much better maturity compared to 2002, they are handicapped as India is too inconsequential strategically for the US & the west, as compared to Pakistan(Mark my words- ultimately China will emerge from the background)…the tables are turning against India, this is as much as they had the International clout to hold on to…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Dear Alethia,
Please don’t force me to reply.
I thought we had already discussed these issues @ Huffington post.
It seems like you are back to square one.

Posted by Strategy | Report as abusive

All this talk of passing on evidence is a sham. India cannot possibly pass on evidence without compromising its sources. It already has a couple of well-documented blow-ups to its credit – one during the Kargil episode stopped India’s monitoring of the Pakistani communications. The other was the arrest of the Kashmiri undercover operative by the Kolkatta police.

India knows very well that Pakistan will not act – in fact it cannot act against the militant organisations. The ISI might have nurtured the various outfits in the beginning, but now the tail is wagging the dog. In the beginning the jihadis needed the ISI. Now the jihadis are dictating terms. So much so that twice, bank accounts of terrorist organisations were frozen after the funds were withdrawn.

So things will carry on as usual. Various Indian (democratically elected) governments will carry on as usual, there willl be more terrorist attacks, infiltration in Kashmir. High-quality fake Indian currency will be printed on the government security presses. There will be more bombings of Shias, the Jihadis wil grow stronger and fight among themselves with better weapons, the Taleban will use better quality acid on girl’s faces.

Because national prestige and honour (and the Swiss account) are more important than some poor woman’s child dying of a simple diarrhea, these things will go on. The people who decide the destiny of their country have their mineral water and their security being paid for by the same mother whose child died unnecessarily. After all, these dirty people breed like flies, so it isn’t much of a loss.

Posted by Jayadevan | Report as abusive

[...] international relations are the same: Reuters Global suggests there is a kind of “diplomatic encirclement” of Pakistan, including (besides [...]

Hi Aleitha,
I agree with your comments.
Pakistan citizens are also victims of terrorists like people living in many other countries of the world. In my opinion some of the “trouble-makers” of the world, has now got name of Pakistan in their log books, and they try to use and take advantage of the same, to achieve their own motives.
People as well as government of Pakistan are target of this same unfortunate phenomena.
Last time in 2002 at time of elections India staged a drama of attack on assembly to win votes. And this time again the indian government is trying to win mass votes by using Mumbai incidence to their advantage.
India is supposed to have one of the largest armies and defence budgets. And despite such large resources what I am unable to understand is that how can just 10 or 12 people take Mumbai city hostage for 60 hours? The last terrorist was able to sustain for 8 hours . Either the terrorists were much more trained than whole Indian commandos and army, OR there is something more under the carpet…..

Posted by Marky Andrez | Report as abusive

There exist sheer misconception, and correction is needed in minds of people who tooks media reports as evidence and then start debating and writing articles – Print media is very strong way of communicating ideas and news – but it also require certain responsibility and accountability – which is lacking in various articles posted here. Some very intelligent guys said that half truth is much worse than lies and result in results which no one could even imagine. A sensible author like you should first gather some evidences before saying something which could effect great many people. One thing that you pointed out correctly that after failed attempt to convince US, UK and other western nations, india is now begging for Saudi support, lets what they will reply.
Following points, although pointed out previously, presented here again to refresh your memory:
1) Dawood Ibrahim is an indian and not Pakistani
2) Russia being an oldest ally of india, and envy to Pakistan, will only say the words which are spoon feeded to it.
3) FBI has urged india to bring out the (true) evidences of Pakistani involvement in mumbai attack, and to idnetify balck sheeps among them.
4) Lone surviving terrorist is Hindu, why his wrist band removed from photos which are being showed on various indian media.
5) China said it is as friendly to Pakistan as it was in previous years and ask india to prove its contentions
6) Check out the statistics of 1999 Kargil incident, who went to US and which side had more fatal casualties. Same was the history in 1965. Who supported the separation of Pakistan in 1971. india always have ill-intentions towards Pakistan
7) No corroborative evidence so far has been provided either to Pakistan or anyone in the world to prove involvement of any Pakistani or any muslim in mumbai attack – which were self imposed by india.
8) Another name of india is “Hindustan” which means “land for hindus only”, just think what it would be for other religions. Brutality in Kashmir by indian is on news since 1948.

These are things which i could count on my fingures, there are lot many stories…………

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Let’s be clear here that pakistan is a “terrorist state” and never have any illusion that it is going to be any different.We have made a grave blunder by suggesting in the international fora that “Pakistan is also a victim of terror.” We should stop interviewing leaders from that country who mouth the same inanities that “you have not produced any proof.”Let us not fall into the trap of providing proof to the culprits. More than 100 acts/attempts of terror recorded in the world since 9/11 have had their roots in Pakistan. More than 40% of the prisoners in Guantanamo are Pakistanis.

We should categorically, unambiguously, unequivocally boycott Pakistan in all aspects for a decade or more. Pakistan is the only territory in the world where an army has a whole country under its control. The state policy of Pakistan is terrorism and their single-point programme of existence is to destroy India.

Posted by robert | Report as abusive

Alethia and Peace have betrayed a basic understandiong of the current flaring tensions. Before I begin I will explain the term Hindustan. It is derived from the word Indus and was used to encompass the India subcontinent. Similarly Taiwan is also referred to as ‘Republic of China’. However that hardly means that their writ extends to Guangzhou or Lanzhou. Hope that clears things up and btw you’re welcome. Now, to put things in perspective lets start with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. All I can say is that the reason why the Soviets lost the Afghan war was not because of the weapon superiority of the Afghans. No. It would be patenetly erroneous to even assume that. The sanctuary for these Afghan mujahideen was in Pakistan which has now turned into a problem for the rest of the world. The Soviets were NEVER allowed to engage them all the way inside Pakistan. India is now facing the same predicament. And the reason for the escalated tension over the last few days is not just the Mumbai attacks. It is Pakistan’s repetitive insulting of the collective intelligence of the people of the international community. The perpetrators came from Pakistan. Pakistan’s reply to this was that they are not Pakistan nationals. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. They CAME from Pakistan and the infrastructure for launching these attacks is in Pakistan. State Responsibility does not just arise from actively aiding an act, it also comes from passively allowing an act to take place. India has NOT ONCE blamed the government for any complicity in the attacks. It has only blamed the government for not doing enough to extinguish the terrorism apparatus which has been directed at India again and again and again and again and again over the past few decades. That means either a) Pakistan is not doing ANYTHING to curb terrorism and has been paying lip service to dismantle terror networks there, b) Worse, Pakistan has lost control of large swathes of area in its territory and c)Worst of all both option a) and b) combined. Pakistan cannot rely on the nuclear and jihadi card which Musharraf has played ever so adeptly. It’s time for this to end. And time for it come out of denial. It is already a basket case, a rogue nation and recently the Pakistani PM had gone on a begging mission to Saudi Arabia to request the witholding of the US $ 300 million dollars in arrears which they owe for their oil imports.(Source: Economist) A country which is not able to provide its citizens with energy and yet make billion dollar(also through loans which apparently is against the concept of Islam!) purchases for weaponry targeted at indefensible human beings cannot be taken at face value. Pakistan has NO credibility.

Posted by Someone rightly | Report as abusive

Also to Yakub: Calm Down. Talking about Rakhis on the issue of the loss of lives of 180+ people? Wow. You will make a great Pakistan Army chief.

Posted by Someone rightly | Report as abusive

India should attack Pakistan and get the whole issue over and done with.

Posted by Sadique Mannan | Report as abusive

From: http://businessandstate.blogspot.com/

India’s Options:

1. Do nothing (supporting assumption: Mumbai was a freak incident, and will not be repeated again)

2. Accelerate diplomacy with Pakistan (Assumption: They are willing, capable and ready to collaborate, and the all that is needed to facilitate such collaboration is greater exchange of information and views, and that further attacks will be prevented by this)

3. Work toward a diplomatic isolation of Pakistan (Assumption: Interests inimical to India can be weakened, and those likely to cooperate strengthened by such an isolation, and that further attacks will be prevented by this)

4. Work toward economic-sanctions against Pakistan (Assumption: The state is constitutionally opposed to India’s weal, and the stress of economic isolation will drive reevaluation of institutional and national agenda, and that further attacks will be prevented by this)

5. Carry out surgical operations against terrorists on Pakistani soil (Assumption: The terrorists are well-identified, and isolated within Pakistani territory, that these attacka will deal a blow to their ability to reconstitute, and Pakistani government will not start supporting terrorists. Finally, that this will not lead to a disproportionate response from Pakistan, nor bring down civilian government, and that further Mumbai-like attacks will be prevented by this)

6. Carry out a full fledged invasion of Pakistan (Assumption: India will be able to permanently cripple Pakistan’s ability to threaten India, and prevent Iraq-like instability in its aftermath. That a nuclear war would not ensue, nor will China opportnitstically make advances on Arunachal, etc. All this to prevent Mumbai-like attacks)

From: http://businessandstate.blogspot.com/

In designing such options, and I admit myriad can be made up, we balance the fear that the response will be ineffective (numbers 1 and 2, for example) with the fear that they will be counterproductive (numbers 5 and six possibly)

I think, given current threat level and India’s limitations, options 3. and 4. cited above (diplomatic isolation OR economic sanctions) are the kinds we will want to choose from amongst.

Combining them, we can either
A. Go for maximum wattage, and seek economic sanctions against Pakistan, and demand clear, specific, time-based actions against them
OR
B. Build a case for economics sanctions, by allowing diplomatic isolation to fail

My thinking in all this is that India is faced with a secular discontinuity here– that Mumbai attacks we NOT a one-off incident, but the begining of what will be a sustained campaign against India.

Do you agree? What options will you construct for India?

From: http://businessandstate.blogspot.com/

Myra,
Let’s see on many views:
Pakistan move Army from Afghan Borders to Indian Borders:
Simple, Islamabad is near to “War On Terror” zone, so I would not be surprised if tomorrow we hear that Taliban has occupied Pakistan from Afghan borders to Islamabad. Therefore US and allies can have another Iraq sort of war in Pakistan.

Indians still seeking Diplomatic pressure from world:
Indians have never waged a war in its history, so they are clean towards UNSC. Indians are frustrating Pakistanis to make a first strike so India will have UNSC, US, and India fighting against Pakistan.
In case, Pakistan nukes on India, then the second strike will come from either one of the Big 5 (US, UK, China, Russia) therefore Indians will not and never get a chance to Nuke Pakistan, another clean sheet in UNSC.

US recent visits / talks with India and Pakistan:
US wants to sustain pressure until it moves its extra forces into Afghan border, so that there will be less dependency on Pakistani Army who are playing a double game on War on Terror. Therefore US can simply strike Afghan at borders and make an entry inside Pakistan as Taliban would have moved inside Islamabad by then. US will have full control of Pakistan just like Iraq, when Pakistanis are deeply involved with Indian Army.
Note, this will also stop Terrorists becoming a front-runners supporting Pakistan war on India.
This will also help US presence in Asia, what they desperately wanted to monitor activities of China and Russia to some extent.

I guess it’s all a game of dependencies to take control over Pakistan as its a nuke country with Terrorism, just to safeguard the nuke not going into Terrorists hands.

We have to look out on resilience from China & Russia during this War (if it happens). Note China and Russia too have some big Border disputes, and they are friendly towards Pakistan and India respectively.

Therefore If this War of Terrorists in Pakistan turn out to be another full fledged Indo-Pak War, then other nations involvement would probably lead to WWIII, just for the sake of mere Terrorists.

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

hersh,
Option#1 is a non-option, it should not have been mentioned at all. Forget it. As I had posted before, not the honorable Sardarji, not the service chiefs, not Sonia Gondhi, not the people of India, no one thinks Mumbai can go unanswered. We simply cannot. We all want India to stay on track focussed on economic prosperity, but it doesn’t mean being sitting duck for Pak terror forever.

Ladies and gentlemen from the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”

It seems you still think you can lie, spread hatred, extrude platitudes meant for deception. THEY HAVE NOT WORKED, they are not working, and falsehood and hatred will be defeated.

It is the blood oath of 1.2 billion Indians, your sponsorship of terrorism on my motherland will be exposed and punished.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/destro y-all-terrorist-camps-in-pak-muslims-urg e-govt/403617/

Mumbai: Muslims in Mumbai held a rally on Friday to protest the inaction of Pakistan Government on the Terror outfits operating from its territory after the last month’s Mumbai attacks which killed 179 persons.

Raising voice against Pakistan, the demonstrators urged the Indian government to destroy all terrorist camps operating in Pakistan.

Tension with India has become a new excuse for Pakistan to stop fighting Al Qaeda terrorists on its border with Afghanistan.

A BBC report on Friday said that air strikes against terrorists in Swat and Bajaur areas were scaled back after Pakistan’s jets moved east to the border with India. Ground operations against militants too have been put off.

Pakistan’s actions now are a problem for the world. Military and economic aid have ensured a less than lukewarm response to terrorism. And diplomacy has failed.
Perhaps, it’s time a blend of diplomatic and military means was used.

For starters, the definition of terrorism could be expanded to include the act of states not fighting known terrorists. Pakistan could be handed a list of tasks with deadlines. Failure to execute them could be followed by automatic use of force to take out terrorists in Pakistan by an international force. The vehicle for this task could be a series of interlinked UN resolutions with well-defined trigger points that enable automatic use of military force after diplomacy is given one last chance.

The capture of one of the ten Mumbai terrorists has been a disaster for Pakistan. The captured terrorist talked, and his information checked out, and made it clear that Pakistan was tolerating Islamic terrorist groups operating openly inside Pakistan. This is nothing new, but such dramatic proof is.

The U.S., the UN and most other major countries put the pressure on Pakistan to do something about this, or risk being officially branded a pro-terrorist state. Pakistan responded to that pressure in the last week by arresting several senior terrorist leaders known to be operating in Pakistan.

But Pakistan refused to allow India to take these terrorists. That’s because if these guys began talking, they would confirm Pakistan’s long term support of Islamic terrorist activities. These are admissions that Pakistan does not want to deal with.

Nevertheless, Pakistan has long been known as a supporter of Islamic terrorists, even though some of these terrorist organizations are trying to kill Pakistani leaders. That is a rather recent development, which came about after September 11, 2001, when the Pakistani leadership were forced to decide between backing the war on terror, or siding with the terrorists. At that point, some Islamic terrorists began attacking Pakistani leaders. But others, like those responsible for the Mumbai attacks (Lashkar e Toiba) did not support the overthrow of the Pakistani government (at least not right away), and continued to be protected by the government.

Pakistan is being forced into a corner, where the choices come down to civil war with their Islamic conservatives and radicals (about a third of the population), or war with India, which could escalate into a nuclear conflict that Pakistan would lose.

The civil war would be messy, but the government would almost certainly win it. Pakistani politicians, being risk averse, are looking for some way out of this mess. There doesn’t seem to be one.

Truth about suicide bomber. Pakistani ISI recruits terminally ill (cancer and aids) young people as suicide bomber. They promise great wealth for the family behind.

Posted by Amar | Report as abusive

Verification of evidence is crucial if there is to be intelligence-sharing between India and Pakistan on the Mumbai massacre. And I maintain that an independent agency should be employed to help India and Pakistan get to the bottom of who is responsible.

The following article illustrates the sad kaleidoscope of intrigue and mistrust surrounding India, Pakistan and Kashmiris in relation to finding out who were the perpetrators of a most brutal terrorist attack at Chittisinghpura in March of 2000. The article is from the New York Times called “A Kashmiri Mystery” by Barry Bearak:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/ home/20001231mag-kashmir.html

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

India and Pakistan need a detailed and comprehensive Terrorism Treaty. At the end of the day, the ISI, the Pak Military and Madrassas must stop manufacturing state sponsored terrorism.

If Pakistan can agree to such a treaty and keep up its end of the bargain, there is no problem.

Pakistan should be given every opportunity to keep itself honest. The written word, if kept will bring peace. If broken, it will lead to annihilation of Pak.

Posted by Terrorism Treaty needed | Report as abusive

I do admit that I was mistaken in my 1st posting concerning the responsibility of the Chittisinghpura terrorist attack. I apologize. There still is no definitive answer on who exactly is responsible.

The prayer that I have is that India and Pakistan would please fight this scourge of terrorism together.

And my specific dream is one where the common people meet eachother at the borders of the two countries and the millions embrace eachother en masse in fraternal reconciliation…

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Marky Andrez
‘…OR there is something more under the carpet…..’

—Your scattered brains…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Alethia,

Fraternal reconciliation is what most Indians as well as the Indian government wants too. However, as long as Pakistan keeps sending terrorists across the border, that is never going to happen. The amount of bitterness and hatred that the Pakistani security establishment has for India is astounding. They use terrorism as an instrument of state policy to, in the words of a Pakistani security analyst, “bleed India till the point that she will be ripe for invasion by the Pak Army so that Islamic rule reigns over the subcontinent again”. Lashkar-e-Toiba has the exact same stated aims in the pamphlets that they distribute, as do a bunch of other terror groups like the Jaish-e-Mohammad, Hizbul Mujahideen etc etc.

Time magazine interviewed a retired Pak general in 2001-2002, who was the head of the ISI for many years, and he fervently wished that there would be nuclear war between the two countries so that Pak could “teach India a lesson”.

The Pakistan security establishment is the root cause of the enmity between the two countries-whenever peace overtures have been made between the civilian leaders of Pak and India, the army declares them as traitors and either hangs them or exiles them and a coup takes place. Until India decides that enough is enough and crushes the back of the Pak Army and ISI, there will be continued attacks against civilians in India increasing in number and sophistication.

The only aim of the Pak security establishment is the destabilization of India, and until they’re extinct, there’s no hope for peace.

I do hope that India launches a full scale war to completely destroy the Pak Army, and then hand back the reins of government to the civilian leadership, who seem to be sincere in their peace initiatives but are mere spectators in the current scenario.

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive

Lord McCauley has succeeded…

Lord McCauley in his speech of Feb 2, 1835, British Parliament:

“I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation”.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Dev,

I am in full sympathy with India for the victims of the Mumbai massacre, there’s no doubt about that.

But your proposal of a full-scale attack on Pakistan by India is beyond belief. And your thinking, that in the aftermath of a “successful” war, that India can hand back the reigns of power to a civilian government in Pakistan, is an illusion.

My country, the USA, has unfortunately followed illusions for the past 7 years. We thought our wars would be a piece of cake. As you know, those wars still continue unabated.

I’m sorry that, my country, the USA, has set a terrible example in international relations to the rest of the world. This idea of pre-emptive war in the 21st century is lunacy.

Yes, terrorism must be fought squarely on several levels.
Yes, in this case, Pakistan is responsible for terrorism emanating from its soil and must take corrective actions.
Yes, Pakistan has made some flip-flops on sending its head of the ISI to India. They have been very clumsy at best and deceptive at worst.

But there are solutions to problems in the world of today other than the lunacy of wars-many other solutions.

And countries should be also a little more mature in their reactions, especially nuclear-armed countries.

And if India were to launch a full-scale war against Pakistan, you can be sure I would take Pakistan’s side.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Alethia,

You’re seeing this as an isolated incident. For those who have lived through the days of the Kashmir militancy sponsored by Pakistan, where we used to read about a bomb blast here and a massacre there every single day (I’m not exaggerating) in the media, as well as the denials issued by Islamabad after every such attack, enough is enough. We have the capability to crush Pakistan and break it into many parts, just like we did in 1971. However, India has always exercised astonishing restraint in the face of massive atrocities inflicted on it. You woke up to the menace of terrorism only after 9/11. Indians have been experiencing this for more than 2 decades.

Every nation has a breaking point. You cannot expect us to absorb every such attack and go on with our lives as if nothing had happened. Just in the last decade alone, the Pakistan military invaded India in the form of the Kargil War of 1999, staged the attack on the Indian Parliament in 2002, after which India massed a million troops along the border with Pak-war was a very real possibility then. The only way it was resolved was because the Government of Pakistan made a pledge to dismantle the terrorist networks it had created and supported against India. It banned a few organizations and made a few cosmetic house arrests-and released them within months after the situation had cooled down.

In July this year, the Afghan cell of the ISI launched a deadly bombing attack on the Indian embassy in Afghanistan that killed 60 people and injured many more. And in December, the Mumbai attacks claim more than 500 dead or injured. This is after the pledge made by the Pak government in 2002. Everything has a limit-India will not go on suffering in silence while Pakistan continues to engage in massacres of innocent civilians.

It does not matter who you support-like they say, you have to walk a mile in someone’s shoes to feel their pain. I myself used to criticise Israel because of their heavy handed tactics and warlike approach towards their neighbours. But now I give them full credit for their policies. Unless you show the terrorists that you’re willing to take the war to their safe havens, and cause massive destruction on a scale that Israel inflicted on Lebanon 2 years ago after one of their soldiers was kidnapped, these brainwashed extremists will not give up.

Until you suffer from terrorism for decades sponsored by your neighbour who constantly denies involvement and threatens war, you will never be in a position to judge us.

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive

I just want to say that Pakistan is not involved in Mumbai incidents, because Pakistan itself huntered by terrorism sponsored by indian terrrist grouped named “RAW” and american army. Indian government knows that those Mumbai attacks were sponsored by and Indian Political group named B.J.P to secure seats in next coming elections in India, and they are blaimimg Pakistan and Defeming Pakistan and want to attack on Pakistan but India should know it very well that if India attacks on Pakistan then Pakistan is ready to answer India in a dangerous way ant then India will be nowhere on the worldmap.

Posted by Hammad | Report as abusive

Dev,

Look, my opinion is only a spec in this wide world. Yes, I realize that you, who are innocent, have to live right there in the midst of these terrorists. But so do innocent Pakistanis.

I personally do have cousins in the American navy and airforce who have served and are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thank God they are O.K.

I am not judging Indians but cautioning Indians not to fall into the trap of this pre-emptive war which my country, unfortunately, has done.

As you already know, I have a high respect for the people and the culture of India and Pakistan. I think I have been humble in my approaches and have admitted some of my mistakes here in this column.

But I am squarely opposed to full scale war between the two countries and on that issue I will not budge.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Alethia

– a ‘full-fledged’ war can only take place if America decides one & gives Pakistan the go ahead,Be rest assured that India will never ever strike first…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

First, as a Pakistani, I strongly condemn every heinous act which kills human beings (particularly innocent people), whether they are in Mumbai, Bali, London or Karachi.

I suggest to the war mongering Indians that they should not forget that previous attacks in India which were blamed on Pakistan (consistent with the Indian government habit to blame every problem on Pakistan) turned out to be the work of Indian army people (two examples are 1. Samjhota express – resulting in the rape & death of thousands & thousands of Muslims 2. Malegaon killings of Muslims). The fact is that India turns a blind eye to domestic Hindu terrorism, whether it is the killing of hundreds of Christians (including nuns) or that of thousands of Muslim men & women.

Further during the Mumbai attack, Karkare, the ATF chief and three of his investigators were killed during the first ten minutes of the attacks. These people had found conclusive evidence pointing to Indian army involvement in the Malegaon attacks and were about to complete the investigation. A strange coincidence, that they were the first to be killed.

India has yet to provide any evidence of Pakistan’s involvement, whether it be the alleged LeT or others. This was confirmed by INTERPOL chief Ronald Noble during his recent visit to South Asia. He said “India has provided no names or information that would allow police in other countries to check their databases, calling it “not acceptable” for New Delhi to provide those details to the media first”. So India wants Pakistan to do what it orders it to do, based on media reports or based on pressure from others who are capitalizing on the situation.

Pakistan is already fighting extremists in the northern part of the country and trying to get rid of these terrorists who were most likely behind the Marriott and other bombings in Pakistan. If India continues its belligerence and try to dictate terms to Pakistan, that could spell disaster for the entire region and could spill further out. Lets not forget that the real enemy for Pakistan & India are poverty, illiteracy and lack of basic human needs.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive

Myra seriously now, the idea that these attacks were financed by Dawood Ibrahim is easily the funniest claim so far and I am sure such spin is being used to further confuse the matter, one only has to sensibly look at who has the most to gain from these attacks to get an idea of what’s really going on.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Anup,
What is the source of Lord McCauley Feb 2, 1835 speech to the British Parliament which you listed? Just curious.

I suggest you read the book “Partition of India: Legend & Reality by H.M.Seervai – Advocate General of Maharashtra – 1957 to 1974″. It has some quotes which credit Lord Macauley for the decision to impart primary education in vernacular languages & higher education in English in India. This resulted in the establishment of universities in Calcutta, Madras and Bombay in 1857. These were the foundation for the English educated Indian middle class today.

Macualey’s observation “I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief” may or not be true then, however, lets face the fact, India is full of beggars and thieves today. Of course, India is not alone in that. The injustice of Corporations and selfish leaders keep people in poverty and deprivation.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive

Nasir
Macaulay’s Minute on Education was dated February 2, 1835. The Governor General of India, William Bentinck approved the Minute on March 7, 1835 and it became the cornerstone of British India educational policy.
Macaulay’s Minute on Indian Education is a public document that is made available in sources such as Young (1935) and Sharp (1920). Young (1935) says that a complete copy of the document is not found in the British Museum. What is available in the above cited sources and in Trevelyan (1876)
Your praiseworthy comments For Lord Macaulay & the present plight of the poverty stricken Sub-continent validate my conjecture regarding the success of the Indophobist Macaulay…although I doubt he would have imagined in his wildest dream of the disastrous Political / Social / Geographical & Cultural damage of his perceived & implemented policy on India…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

John Michael McConnell, the United States Director of National Intelligence, in a speech at Harvard University, soon after Mumbai massacre said that the same group responsible for the 2006 Mumbai train bombings was behind Mumbai attack of 2008.The strategy of Pak army / ISI against Indian civilians stands on one solid single pillar- PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY. This time in Mumbai they messed up in the execution and have been caught red handed. They had gotten away so many times.

Indians have to really thank Ajmal Amir Kasab and the brave police man belonging to lower cadre of Mumbai police who was responsible for the capture of Mr.Kasab and died in the process.

LET was involved in attacks in New Delhi in October 2005, and in Bangalore in December 2005.

Examples of recent major terror attacks include a coordinated series of bombings in market and temple areas of the tourist city of Jaipur, Rajasthan (May 2008), an attack on a government paramilitary facility in Uttar Pradesh (December 2007), coordinated bomb blasts at court facilities in three cities in Uttar Pradesh (November 2007), an explosives blast in a cinema hall in Punjab (November 2007), two explosions at a popular park and restaurant in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh (August 2007), an explosion at the main mosque in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh (May 2007), the detonation of explosive devices on a train northwest of Delhi (February 2007), simultaneous attacks on Mumbai commuter trains (July 2006), simultaneous attacks on a train station and places of worship in Varanasi (March 2006), and simultaneous attacks on several markets in New Delhi (October 2005).

Contrary to some popular rumors, false hopes among Pakistanis the issue will not go away anytime soon. This is not an India-Pakistan issue, but an international one. India is going to blow hot and cold with revelations and media releases, to keep it going; and the international community is likely to go along with India and demand action from Pakistan.

Johnny,

You just prove how easily the media and the comments of indian politicians can blind the lay person already looking for an excuse to blame all the ills of the world on a designated ‘Islamic’ target, maybe John Michael McConnell had some information which might be of use if he did in fact make the claims you are suggesting as the mumbai train bombings were carried out by Hindu religious extremists and like on this occasion pakistan was initialy blamed by indian poiliticians and an adamant media.

I suggest you actually think and do some research before posting things that are clearly based on your inside fear and loathing of pakistan and probably muslims in general.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hindu-e xtremists-held-for-deadly-bombings/2008/ 10/26/1224955853361.html

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Pakistan must realize that the jehadi mentality being injected into millions of kids through its Saudi funded madrasas only sows seeds of hatred. This would only ensure that future generations in Pakistan continue to wallow in hopelessness, hatred and bitterness as they see a democratic multi ethnic India progressing by leaps and bounds.

I am an Indian American, a Hindu by birth, but extremely proud of the fact that I grew up in a muliticultural country where folks of all religions coexist as equal citizens. While renegade individuals and fringe groups with extreme mindsets may be found in India as everywhere else, the law of the land and the Indian constitution treats every person equally irrespective of her or his religion.

Even at this moment, the Indian Prime Minister hails from a minority group (the brave and industrious ‘Sikh’ community). The Indian President happens to be a woman. She was preceded by a person of the muslim faith. Incidentally he was NOT the first person from the muslim faith to become the president of India. We have also had a Sikh president, just as we have had a person from the lowest Hindu caste become the President of India.

Similarly the Indian Army, Navy and Airforce have had Chiefs that belong to faiths that are numerically minority groups in India. The previous Army chief was a Sikh, and the current Air Force Chief is a Parsi (Zoroastrian faith).

To those who write in this forum that Pakistan has millions of folks from non-muslim faiths living with equal rights, could you please step forward and mention one Pakistani President, Prime Minister or Army/Navy/Airforce chief past or present from the Sikh/Christian/Parsi or Hindu faith? Could you also explain why Pakistani cities like Lahore that had only 50% muslim inhabitants as per 1951 census, today have 94% muslims! What happened to all those Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and Parsis that lived there. Did they just vanish into thin air? Or were they forcibly converted / killed, as has happened all along in history under the sword of Islam?

Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947 after the persistent ‘islam in danger’ rhetoric of its Whisky drinking, pork eating, cigarette smoking founder Jinnah (who slept with the young daughter of a distraught friend in the friend’s home while abusing the gracious hospitality of the friend). Less than 30 years after its birth, Pakistan proved wrong the logic of its formation – Muslim unity – when East Pakistan seceded from the West, the common chord of Islam notwithstanding. Bangladesh came into being, after 9 months of serious human rights violations by the Pakistani army over civilians especially women and girls in East Pakistan.

The political ‘last straw’ that broke Pakistan into two was the steadfast refusal of the West Pakistanis (Punjabis) to cede political power to political leaders from the East that had legitimately won the majority in Federal elections. Instead of allowing Sheikh Mujib the political leadership of the Nation, Pakistani Army generals ordered the army to plunder and bludgeon the East Paksitanis (Bengalis). One wonders what the Quaid e Azam (Jinnah) would have had to say had he lived to see the genocide perpetrated by his army on fellow muslim men and women on the Eastern half of Pakistan. Ironically, muslim refugees from East Pakistan streamed into refugee camps in India to escape the genocide and rape perpetrated by muslim soldiers of the Pakistani army!

The resulting India-Pakistan war of 1971 was the most decisive since World War II. Under Mrs Indira Gandhi’s political leadership, Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, comprehesively defeated the Pakistan Army in 13 days, resulting the the most ignominous even of Pakistan’s history. The ‘signing of surrender’ in Dacca by the Pakistani Army Commander General Niazi, who after signing the surrender document stood up and hugged the victors, the Indian Military commanders. The ‘one Pakistani soldier can take on 10 Indian/Hindu soldiers’ rhetoric notwithstanding, 93000 Pakistani soldiers surrenders to Indian Soldiers in Dacca. In numerical terms, this was the largest surrender in battle since WWII.

The comprehensive victory in the military theater was complemented by the Indian bureacracy as well. Within no time, Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) was aided by India in its efforts to quickly transition into a full fledge functioning nation. That was the first time since WWII that a nation was surgically midwived through an act of war. The brave Bengalis of ‘Mukti Bahini’ fought almost barehanded alongside the Indian Army to defeat the Pakistani army.

Ironically, instead of realizing the folly of spewing hatred against India, while muzzling the aspirations of minorities within Pakistan, the defeat and surrender of 1971 further institutionalized ‘jihad’ and violence by the Pakistan army – as a state policy. Convinced that they can never win against India in conventional theaters of war, the Pakistan army began seeking proxy routes to inflict damage to India. Every Pakistani cadet to this day takes an oath in every military training establishment to avenge and dismember India sacrificing his life in the process if need be!

After 1971 the Pakistani Army and its intelligence outfits began channeling resources and people into subversive activities in the Indian states bordering Pakistan. While it did this cladenstinely in the 1970s, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan gave Pakistan the opportunity to curry favor with the US. From the American perspective, Pakistan’s location made it an idea launching pad for CIA operations against Russian forces in Afghanistan. In an amazing quid-pro-quo Gen Zia ul Haq of Pakistan promised the Americans Pakistani Army infrastructer to raise terror camps to invite and train jobless muslim youth from all over the muslim world to fight the Russians. From the American side, all Zia wanted was, a free hand to divert mercenaries and terror onto India as well.

Armed with billions of CIA dollars and a steady supply of American weaponry, Gen Zia entrenched himself into an unassailable position both militarily as well as politically within Pakistan. Outside of Pakistan, within the Muslim ‘ummah’, Zia began relishing dreams of rivalling Saudi Arabia and Iran as the fountain head of Islamic leadership. While religiously Saudi could not be replaced as the center of the Islamic consciousness so long as Mecca and Medina are located there, and politically Iran had gained notoriety as the longest thorn in the American flesh, Zia wanted to land Pakistan’s imprint on the Islamic psyche world wide.

The idea of building the largest Mosque in the world fascinated him, however to garner enduring respect from the Islamic word, Zia aspired for something even more enduring. Therein began the race to be the first (muslim) nation to build the Islamic (atom) bomb. ‘We will eat grass if needed, but we must have the bomb”, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, had once remarked, stoking unfounded fears that India would nuke Pakistan. Zia, now emboldened by American acquiescence for carrying water for the Americans in Afghanistan, now began a policy of ‘beg, borrow, or steal” to ‘come what may, we need the nukes”. In Dr. Abdul Qadir ‘Xerox’ Khan, the military establishment found the right combination of talent needed for ‘nukes by hook or crook’. AQ Khan in right earnest stole and photocopies blue prints for nuclear installations from Eruope and helped build the islamic bomb.

‘Xerox’ Khan also excelled in transferring technology and knowhow to other renegade elements in the Islamic world to help lunatics create the bomb, in exchange for political capital and goodwill to his handlers in the Pakistani Army. General Musharraf and his ISI gave Xerox Khan unquestioned powers and privileges (including a dedicated aircraft) in his role as the ‘nuclear proliferator’ in chief.

It was only when the CIA, frustrated by its inexplicable inability to nab Bin Laden despite outwardly expression of ‘cooperation’ by Pakistani Army in nabbing Taliban, began taking a hard and renewed look at the antecedents of Pakistani Intelligence, that the truth began to hit home. Pakistan has always abetted and protected Islamic terrorism while pretending to be on the American side. In short the Pakistani duplicity of ‘run with the hare while hunting with the hounds’ began to unravel.

The CIA accosted Gen Musharraf with irrefutable details of Pak involvement with Bin Laden and Taliban (including in 9/11) on the one hand, and also with proof about Dr. ‘Xerox’ Khan transporting nuclear centrifuges to Lybia. Faced with overwhelming evidence that pointed to his own direct involvement, Musharraf, decided to make Dr. AQ ‘Xerox’ Khan the fall guy. Dr Xerox Khan’s plane with nuclear components was confiscated as it was about to take off. Xerox Khan was given the customary ‘House arrest’ which is a euphemism in Pakistan for ‘a life in luxury as a state guest minus media appearances’. Till date, ISI/ Pak Army have refused CIA to question Dr. Xerox Khan, lest the trail lead on to the door steps of the Pak Army and its intelligence!

This episode soured the Bush-Musharraf honeymoon irreversibly. Else this relationship was destined to overshadow all previous US Republican President-Pakistani Dictator relationships of the past, including the infamous Nixon-Yahya Khan love fest (that ended with Nixon’s exasperated rants to Kissinger about Mrs Indira Gandhi – “that old witch” – as Indian troops cut Pakistan. All Nixon could do to display solidarity to his beleguered drunkard Pakistani General Yahya Khan, was assurance to the effect that Nixon would ensure that Indira Gandhi’s Army would not endanger Yahya’s personal security!).

Posted by Setu Madhavan | Report as abusive

Regarding Setu Madhavan’s post on December 28, 2008
7:18 am GMT. I wonder I could not find a single word “Kashmir” in the whole thesis. Can I question why mention of Kashmir makes Indians jump like “headless chickens”? What about “peaceful nuclear explosion” or ironically called “smiling Buddha”, since then India started nuclear black mailing in South Asia.

Posted by Julius | Report as abusive

To Setu Madhavan:

Your assertion that India is such a diverse country is very true. When it comes to diversity and minorities in high office, all other countries pale in comparison, including my own country, the USA.

I have traveled to several countries including India and Pakistan where I have several dear friends. Again, next to India, Pakistan has much less diversity and fewer minorites in high office.

But when you compare Pakistan to all other Muslim countries, it is enormously more diverse and pays close atentin to its minorities.

The last chief justice was Hindu, Mr. Bagwandas. Minorities are being inducted into the armed forces.Pakistan has functioning Hindu temples ,Sikh Gurdwaras, Christian churches, Parsi temples, and non-Muslim tribes dating back to lineage of Alexander the Great.

I’m afraid you are dwelling on the past too much. Yes, some of those terrible events you mentioned did happen.
But don’t dwell on the past to create hatred in the present. It’s not good.

The one thing that Pakistan must be credited for, if nothing else, in the past several years and in the present is its rebirth of minority rights, as exemplified in parliamentary representation.

The uplift of minorities and the rebuilding of their house of worship, a previously neglected area, is one of the true bright spots in the Pakistan of today.

I believe many in India will give Pakistan credit for that.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

If pakistan is moving its army from western border to eastern border, what is stopping America Army hitting known terrorist targets deep inside Pakistan territory in ground offensive.I mean they are hitting them with missiles already.
This will neutralize the blackmail tactics used by the Pakistan’s govt/Army/ISI (whoever is in command)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

‘I believe many in India will give Pakistan credit for that.’
–We are ready to give Pakistan all the credit of building / breaking & what not, all we ask in exchange is that they reign in their covert ISI’s activities aimed at India & cure the hallucination of their Armies ambition of fluttering the Pakistan flag on the Red Fort, leave us in peace is our heartfelt request…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

It is absolutely true that the bomb blasts in the train service between India and Pakistan and the bomba blasts in a town called Malegon were carried out by Hindu terrorists.

The above fact does not absolve Pakistan in its complicity in terrorism in India. It is like saying since there were two hindu terrorist attacks, this disproves 98 other Pakistan sponsored terrorist attacks in India.

The goals of Pak army and ISI in sponsoring these ataacks are as follows:

1. First, Use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy. They genuinely believe these attacks will force Indians to negotiate with them on many disputes. This technique is used by Pakistan in its negotiations with America also. Turning the terror tap on and off for money and to get what Pakistan wants.

2. Second, Sowing discord, hatred between Hindus and Muslims in India, trying to destabilize India. Hindu militant outfits are the best Pakistan can hope for in this regard, since they walk right into the trap laid by Pakistan.

3.Third, trying to undermine India’s economy, threatening tourist industry. Thus the attacks on Indian Institute of Science, and Taj hotel etc.

Ironically Pakistan army, and ISI have not achieved anything useful for the state of Pakistan. The only thing they have achieved is making Pakistan very infamous across the world for very wrong things.

Pak economy is on life support and the future looks bleaker UNLESS of course if it makes a dramatic U-turn and becomes a nation focussed on economic development. Unfortunately, this looks unlikely.You would think you would focus on building a Pakistan Institute of Science or Pakistan Institute of Technology to match India.

India has to dramatically boost counter-terrorism efforts. India is winning, and will continue to win if it maintains internal harmony and remains focussed on economic development. Considering the size, and the diversity of its population what India has accomplished so far conducting impartial elections for 61 years, viable instituitions, and so on.

The Pakistanis take great pleasure in highlighting India’s failures. Thus they celebrate any events or articles written by a few authors depicting India in a bad light. This is like a student who got F- and is being threatened of dismissal from the school making fun of good student who got B+ grades.

Johnny
Although the Malegaon blast is the handiwork of hindu terrorists, the train blast case was actually being credited to them by an enthuthiastic Hooda government under the impression that it would please Madam Sonia, only to retract hastily knowing that the frame up is weak, a sheer vulgar display of Congress Sycophancy…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Since I joined the debate late, I have a long list of comments on various posts.
But first Myra,
The redeployment of troops by pakistan on the indo-pak border has two main reasons:
A. to stop fighting against its ally(the taliban), who have said that they will fight alongside the pakistan army it India goes to war.
B. to divert attention from the main issue,Terrorism(Sponsored by ISI ).
I don’t see any reason why people are expecting war when the Prime Minister of India has said that ,”Nobody wants war.War is not the issue,terrorism is”.

Diplomatic force cannot be effective beyond a certain extent. And I personally don’t trust the Americans in this(Indo-US aliiance = 2-3 years but Pak-US alliance= 50-55 years). And now that pakistan is removing troops from afgan border, US is under a higher pressure.

Alethia,
A.I advice you to get information from trusted sources before posting them on the internet. You may be misguiding people.

B. You commented that ,”Therefore, due to the history of mistrust and erroneous blame, Pakistan is currently unconvinced of Indian evidence that the terrorists of Mumbai are the nationality that India says they are. At that’s why Pakistan is demanding bona fide evidence form India before taking further actions.”

What does “bona fide” evidence mean? Do you expect the Indian government to show a photocopy of Kasab’s birth certificate? When the guy has admitted that he is from pakistan, then evidence from satellite phones and the intelligence findings point to pakistan, I don’t know what could be a more concrete evidence.
C.However I agree with you in one of your comment.
“there should be a differentiation between Pakistan’s government & people and terrorists residing in Pakistan.”
And you should understand that India understands this more than anyone else.That is why we haven’t seen IAF jets decimating pakistan after 26/11.(Unlike the US post 9/11).

“And if India were to launch a full-scale war against Pakistan, you can be sure I would take Pakistan’s side.”
Don’t worry India is not USA!

Marky Andrez,

Allow me to quote your very funny comment sir,
“And despite such large resources what I am unable to understand is that how can just 10 or 12 people take Mumbai city hostage for 60 hours? The last terrorist was able to sustain for 8 hours . Either the terrorists were much more trained than whole Indian commandos and army, OR there is something more under the carpet….”

This clearly points to your meager knowledge on military combat. Sir, even though there were only 10 terrorists, they had a few advantages viz,
1. The element of surprise.
2. This was not fought in battle field but in an urban setting. For example, the Taj had about 400 rooms, and the no of ways for 4 people to occupy 400 rooms is??(I leave it to the mathematicians)
3. Hostages.NSG attempted to save as many as they could. And succeeded.
Let me bring it to your notice sir, that Indian NSG is among the most talented in the world.

Peace,

“Dawood Ibrahim is an indian and not Pakistani”
That is why India can’t understand why pakistan is not sending him back to India.
“Lone surviving terrorist is Hindu, why his wrist band removed from photos which are being showed on various indian media.”
People who wear arm bands are hindus???? well, so that means I can’t be a hindu. Please, avoid making such moronic conspiracy theories.
“Who supported the separation of Pakistan in 1971. india always have ill-intentions towards Pakistan”
People of bangladesh dont think so.

Nasir,
Yes, you are right, the response of the Indian government to the recent riots is far from satisfactory.But I don’t understand how this has any significance to the present topic.

“Further during the Mumbai attack, Karkare, the ATF chief and three of his investigators were killed during the first ten minutes of the attacks. These people had found conclusive evidence pointing to Indian army involvement in the Malegaon attacks and were about to complete the investigation. A strange coincidence, that they were the first to be killed.”

1. They were NOT the first to be killed.
2. They were NOT killed during the first 10 mins of attack
3. The Mumbai police has submitted a detailed report, this was follwed by the Home Minister of India who stated that there is no conspiracy in this event.
I suggest you read more newspapers.

“Lets not forget that the real enemy for Pakistan & India are poverty, illiteracy and lack of basic human needs.”

I agree with you on this. Well said!

Hammad
Good Morning!!!! Looks like you had a nice dream.

“Indian government knows that those Mumbai attacks were sponsored by and Indian Political group named B.J.P to secure seats in next coming elections in India,”
You really want us to believe that OUR own people attacked Bombay? Sometimes conspiracy theorists are very lunatic.

“Pakistan is ready to answer India in a dangerous way ant then India will be nowhere on the worldmap.”
1965,1971,1999. That’s my answer.(Now don’t tell me that pakistan defeated India in these wars!!)

Ali,

“the mumbai train bombings were carried out by Hindu religious extremists ”

WHERE DID YOU GET THAT NEWS??

Finally I would like to add some points,

1. War is NOT an option.
2. Terrorism has no religion, please avoid using words like “hindu terrorists” or “muslim terrorists”.
3. Pakistan is not going to dismantle the terror outfits easily, diplomatic pressure alone will not do.

Posted by yogesh | Report as abusive

it is easy for indian media and govt. persons to point fingre towords pakistan and propagat in whole world,because world is based on princeple of unjustice. strong only have to point at weaker no evedence is requied. why this whole world dont ask india for international inquiry commission? In 2002 indian parliment attacks also india did not provided in evedence to the world for alleged involvment of pakistan.

Posted by zahid nazir | Report as abusive

How crazy it can be? Instead of talking about peace, harmony, humanity, prosperity and better future for comming generations, these heartless war mongers talk about war and distruction. Have not we have seen enough of such tragedy where helpless people become more helpless for the benefit of few self-centered idiots, whether they are Hindu or Muslim or followers of any other so called stupid religions. Remember, Religion is for crackpots. The idiots prefer to use it like an umbrella when it is raining, but other times they throw it in the corner of their living room, as a worhtless piece of utencil, at will.

To all those who consider Pakistan involvement in mumbai incident or other similer failure of indian intelligence and forces…..
give one single yes only one evidence in favour or your contention —- without using the words spoon feeded into your mouth by media…..

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

India and the rest of the world would be in a illusion if they are thinking pakistan will correct itself because of diplomatic pressure.. did the atttacks in afganistan comedown after pakistan started crack down in tribal areas ?? did the infiltration in to Indian border stop after numerous deals and peace talks with years between india and pakistan ??
Only way is the Israel style – revenge.
India should declare for every 1 person killed in India by terrorists we will kill 10 people in pakistan. only then will pakistan start acting to stop militancy. Everybody just forget diplomacy with pakistan..simply because you are not dealing with diplomats..but terrorists and their sponsorers.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive

‘Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947 after the persistent ‘islam in danger’ rhetoric of its Whisky drinking, pork eating, cigarette smoking founder Jinnah (who slept with the young daughter of a distraught friend in the friend’s home while abusing the gracious hospitality of the friend).”

Setu, I see that you’re a Tarun Tejpal fan. Your post’s tone is clearly anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim. That’s in its place and has some merit. However I take great exception to your Jinnah’s depiction which was unnecessary. Let me go through your post.

Jinnah fell romantically in love with Ruttenbai and vice versa, who was his friend’s, Sir Dinshaw Petit’s daughter. They married later on and she took the name Maryam Jinnah. Jinnah’s first wife had already passed away. Unlike Nehru, he was no womanizer (Mountbatten’s wife and others). And lets not get into the controversy with Gandhi’s preferences.

Jinnah and Nehru were secularists. Nehru was agnostic. Jinnah was a non-practicing Muslim who did drink, but then dropped the habit later in his life and certainly no drunkard. M.C. Chagla had written about Jinnah eating pork in his 70′s autobiography. However not mentioned is Chagla was sacked by Jinnah when they had serious disagreement on partition and severed ties (also in question was Chagla’s knowledge of what was ordered at a lunch date he was absent from). Servants of Jinnah in England have never reported any such meals nor has any other confidante or enemy. Chagla’s charge is often repeated by Indian historians and critics.

Jinnah believed in a Muslim state (which he did not earlier in life) and not a religious state or Khilafat as many proclaim as he had even criticized Gandhi of religious zealotry. He was a fan of Kemal Attaturk and Turkey’s Muslim secular transformation. So the term would be “Muslim in danger” rhetoric which if you follow the clashes during that time, indeed it WAS happening, and became a self-fulfilling prophecy during partition. We can go on debating on the deals and packages between Congress and the Muslim League and their realities since the 30′s but it would be pointless.

There are other points in your post I have issues with, though they are really minor, and posting about Jinnah in poor light is unnecessary grief. You wanted to discredit the man’s integrity to justify any criticism of Pakistan’s ‘non-destiny existence’ and that’s poor. The bottom line is today’s Pakistan is far from Jinnah’s good vision (and you may have your own opinion, but most believe it to be genuine and I am one of them).

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive

Seems like for every Peace there is an Om. lol.

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive

Let’s face facts. Pakistan has a militant problem. End of story. I may not trust the Indian government, but I don’t trust the Pakistani government more!

The only conspiracy is a self made ISI one. Where we’re feeling a full scale blow back.

“Militant wearing colored arm bands therefore a Hindu extremist?!”

That has got to be the dumbest deduction ever. My cousins wear colored orange yellow bands and they’re not Hindus. Sadly I see this repeated by many Pakistani posters.

Its the month of Muharram. Expect some bombings on Shia Muslim processions by Wahabi/Salafi/Deobandi or Sunni Muslim extremists. But many Pakistanis will be in self denial and delusional blaming RAW for it.

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive

Pakistan is NOT going to have “peace” internally and externally. If any one disputes this declaration, all they have to do is to read the posts from one “PEACE” here. No scope for “peace” if the likes of “PEACE” run Pakistan!!

Now that tempers seem to have calmed down a little and India and Pakistan are both throwing cold water on the prospect of war, I’d like to make some proposals:

1) India and Pakistan should get over their reticence and begin sharing intelligence with eachother on the terrorism which is present in both countries.

2) The terrorists who committted the Mumbai massacre should be indentified with bona fide evidence, i.e., India should give the evidence it has to Interpol and through Interpol Pakistan must take that evidence and act on it. (I’m not accusing India of withholding evidence, they needed time to gather it and I’m confident they had every intention all along to supply it when the investigation was over).

3) Would the governments of India and Pakistan please put in place a ruling that until investigations are complete, no police, no leaks to news agencies, and no other officials should be allowed to give his/her opinion as to who they think committed a terrorist attack.

4) Will the governments of India and Pakistan please continue their composite dialogue. Do not allow terrorists to set your agenda.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Pakistan And India:
My confession: “I am a Pskitani national and I think people who prepetrated Mumbai attacks shall be tried in indian court. I think they are pakistani nationals though no ISI and/or Army is involved”

people with same ethnicity but hatred. The claims and claims and claims, In India, Pakistan is a 100% faulty nation with its founding fathers far from the integrity of Ghandhi. In pakistan, Ghandhi is a pupil of chaankia and sign of Hypocrisy. In India, people celebrate the indian victory and offense in 1971 as a victoy where they aggressed inside the border of another nation. in Pakistan, people hate it and think india meddled in their internal affairs. Shall we meddle in Kashmir also. because like East Pakistanis, a lot of kasmiris come to Paksitan and say they want to get rid of India. Kashmir, is a wrod which indians dont like to say or listen, The K word. The Million march on the roads of kasmir in May-August 2008 when indian flags were burnt is forgotten in India and Democracy is winning after a so called 69% voting, who cares when there is no international observation allowed to count how many voted. People who reply my comment will not even write the name of Kashmir. Hyderabad Dakkan, which was taken by india on the basis that the Raja wants to go with pakistan but the populations wants to go with India but in Kashmir, Raja wanted to go with india but population with Pakistan. The same logic did not serve the purpose of India. India first took the water of three Pakistani rivers in 60s and now closing Chenab even. I would love them to be at peace but they have to accept the K issue. India wants to speak the language of USA with us. The same language bush talked to Saddam. Dear brothers, we are not Iraq or Afghanistan and you are not USA. You are not sitting 10000 Kms from us. The fact is that you are our neighbor and in range of our missiles, planes and tanks. We want peace, but dont talk to us in the language you dont like to listen your self. Be friends and allow us to live. Dont speak the language of propaganda, use your brains, If we are united we can be powerful

Posted by Ahmed Jawad | Report as abusive

pak is not understood the basics in criminology. you cannot collect foolproof evidence at the site of crime alone. the available evidence has to be corroborated with evidence available with residence of the criminals and theirs perpetrators and helpers. responsible nation cannot damand foolproof evidence at the crime of site. they should interrogate with available evidence and make it fool proof. if this basic principle is not understood, then either they dont know about how to keep law and order or they should be acting. there cannot be third opinion

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive

The snake has been completely exposed. Other ppl have to feed it for survival. It has no plans for the future. It is emaciated, just encircle it.

Alethia,

I genuinely do like your post. To your proposal of continuing the Composite dialogue i do not share your enthusiasm.It is better to call off all these dialogues for now.The lahore walk was repaid with kargill, the parliament attack ended with no culprits being booked & now the mumbai attack has seen many dramas. Unless Pakistan moves into a democracy & there is clarity that the people of pakistan will rally behind their leader in decisions they make the whole thing to me looks futile & insincere.By the way Best wishes for a great new year.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive

The Indian troops-to-Kashmiri people ratio in the occupied Kashmir is the largest ever soldiers-to-civilians ratio in the world. There are approximately 700,000 Indian military forces–including regular army, para-military troops, border security force and police–currently deployed in the occupied Kashmir. This is in addition to thousands of “counter-militants” –the civilians hired by the Indian forces to crush the uprising.

Since the start of popular uprising, thousands of innocent Kashmir people have been killed by the Indian occupation forces. There are various estimates of these killings. According to government of India estimates, the number of persons killed in Occupied Kashmir between 1989 and 1996 was 15,002. Other Indian leaders have stated a much higher figure. For instance, former Home Minister Mohammad Maqbool Dar said nearly 40,000 people were killed in the Valley “over the past seven years.” Farooq Abdullah’s 1996 statement estimated 50,000 killings “since the beginning of the uprising.” The All-Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC)–which is a representative body of over a dozen Kashmiri freedom fighters’ organizations–also cites the same number. Estimates of world news agencies and international human rights organizations are over 20,000 killed.

Indian human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir include indiscriminate killings and mass murders, torturing and extra-judicial executions, and destruction of business and residential properties, molesting and raping women. These have been extensively documented by Amnesty International, US Human Rights Watch-Asia, Physicians for Human Rights, International Commission of Jurists (Geneva), Contact Group on Kashmir of the Organization of Islamic Countries–and, in India, by Peoples Union for Civil Liberties, the Coordination Committee on Kashmir, and the Jammu and Kashmir Peoples’ Basic Rights Protection Committee. Despite repeated requests over the years by world human rights organizations such as the Amnesty International, the Indian government has not permitted them any access to occupied territories. In 1997, it even refused the United Nations representatives permission to visit there.

Posted by John | Report as abusive

We’re DEFINITELY on the right track here. Let’s continue to put the cart before the horse.

Or how is this for an idea? In fact at the risk of sounding like a broken record, and please pardon my borrowing a line from the 1st Clinton run, but it is indeed:

THE KASHMIR PROBLEM STUPID!

The sooner India, the world’s biggest democracy, shakes off it’s positive allergy to SERIOUSLY, fully and finally discussing this ‘explosive’ issue (remember the democratically held UN Kashmiri plebisite?) the sooner the that WHOLE region and by extension, the West can feel safer.

Our courageous Musharraf and his multi one-way unanswered gestures (how unfortunate) may have left the scene, but PLEASE understand this:

Cosmetic and mere lip service CBM’s, stubbornly refusing to include near impatient and ready 3rd party mediators (US PRES. OBAMA being the latest) with the real hope that the issue will somehow be swept under the rug by the passage of time are a waste of both time and money. What do you fear? Peace? Or should we continue to insist on pieces?

HEEEELLLLLOOOOO????

Indian friends, is your government listening?

Posted by N. Javed | Report as abusive

Kashmir is a slogan and a smoke screen. Pakistan does not care about Kashmir. Pakistan only cares about hate. Get people distracted hating somebody and they won’t demand decent government. If the rest of Kashmir were given to Pakistan they would find some other excuse. If Pakistan conquered India, they would kill every Hindu.
East Pakistan had nothing to do with Kashmir or India. India rescued East Pakistan from total annihilation. After Partition Pakistan killed every Hindu who would not flee. In 1971 Pakistan attempted to kill every Bengali who would not or could not flee. The province would have been emptied of people. The question is, did the cia help to kill all those people. The Pakistanis were not systematic or organized enough to have done it alone. The cia certainly used their control over the US news media to downplay it. Since the cia was infiltrated after wwII by Nazis, it seems logical that these cia goons would help Pakistan kill three million people.
You have to realize that those three million people were real people. They did not expect the army attack. Most of those killed were children. Because of the cia control of US media, Pakistan has never been taken to task for anything. India is not much better. Indira Ghandi made a heroic move to free East Pakistan. But look what happened to her. They killed her, just like JFK. Look what has happened to the US. The land of the brave and the home of the free has become a cruel joke. We lost our democracy in 1963. Those goons rule us and we let them.

Posted by margaret khan | Report as abusive

Wow Margaret. I thought conspiracy theories were only propagated by my Pakistani brethren, but you take the cake.

The US Media did report the atrocities (check CBS coverage on youtube) much to Nixon’s dislike who turned the other way. The US stayed out of it, but did not condemn it. It was systematic and organized because it was being committed by the Pakistan Army.

After Partition I believe it cut both ways on the killings where Muslims and Hindus killed each other. It is also noted by most Historians that Muslim migrants were mostly killed. There did exist a Hindu minority (and still does) in Pakistan, but unfortunately the numbers HAVE drizzled DOWN considerably thanks to fanaticism and govt neglect, BUT KILLING every Hindu doesn’t hold water.

The CIA conspiracies of controlling the media (however the US govt has a brilliant PR system to show their side of the story),Gandhi and JFK’s assassination are just pure paranoia.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

What to say more for a country who says lies and lies only–previously it says it has provided all evidences to the world about Pakistan involvement in mumbai incident, forget to remove the thread from so-called terrorist hand and then edit photos and remove wrist band. Their PM is nowing to li_ck US sh_it and beg for help to save them from Pakistan, true nation. india has failed many times in its attempt to defame pakistan but as always this time also it has to lick again his own spit back.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive