India – aiming for diplomatic encirclement of Pakistan?

December 26, 2008

India is piling on the diplomatic pressure to convince the international community to lean on Pakistan to crack down on Islamist militants blamed by New Delhi for the Mumbai attacks.

According to the Times of India, “India has made it clear to the U.S. and Iran as well as Pakistan’s key allies, China and Saudi Arabia, that they need to do more to use their clout to pressure Pakistan into acting…” The Press Trust of India (PTI), quoted by The Hindu, said India had used a visit by Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal to Delhi to drive home the same message.

As discussed previously on this blog, in the immediate aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, India’s response was to look to the United States to put pressure on Pakistan. It also appears to have won some support from Russia, whose officials said publicly that the attacks were funded by Dawood Ibrahim, an underworld don who India says lives in Pakistan. China, Pakistan’s traditional ally, supported the United Nations Security Council in  blacklisting the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the charity accused of being a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba.  China’s Foreign Minister has also telephoned his counterparts in India and Pakistan urging dialogue, according to Xinhua

And to complete the tour of the permanent members of the Security Council, Britain blamed Pakistan-based militants for the Mumbai attacks, while France has also called on Pakistan to take action.

That’s a fairly broad consensus in favour of diplomatic pressure. There certainly seem to be more players more visibly involved than in 2001/2002 when India and Pakistan came to the brink of war over an attack on the Indian parliament that India blamed on Pakistan-based militants. You might therefore be tempted to argue that the diplomatic approach is working — and as long as this stands a chance, the prospects of military escalation are slim.

So what is going wrong? Despite the flurry of diplomatic activity, the military tensions are rising.  Pakistan has cancelled army leave and redeployed troopsThe Washington Post said thousands of troops were being redeployed from the Afghan border to the border with India.

Are the two countries’ armies simply making sure they are prepared, just in case the diplomatic efforts fail? Or is there more going on behind-the-scenes?

Comments

Marky Andrez
‘…OR there is something more under the carpet…..’

—Your scattered brains…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Alethia,

Fraternal reconciliation is what most Indians as well as the Indian government wants too. However, as long as Pakistan keeps sending terrorists across the border, that is never going to happen. The amount of bitterness and hatred that the Pakistani security establishment has for India is astounding. They use terrorism as an instrument of state policy to, in the words of a Pakistani security analyst, “bleed India till the point that she will be ripe for invasion by the Pak Army so that Islamic rule reigns over the subcontinent again”. Lashkar-e-Toiba has the exact same stated aims in the pamphlets that they distribute, as do a bunch of other terror groups like the Jaish-e-Mohammad, Hizbul Mujahideen etc etc.

Time magazine interviewed a retired Pak general in 2001-2002, who was the head of the ISI for many years, and he fervently wished that there would be nuclear war between the two countries so that Pak could “teach India a lesson”.

The Pakistan security establishment is the root cause of the enmity between the two countries-whenever peace overtures have been made between the civilian leaders of Pak and India, the army declares them as traitors and either hangs them or exiles them and a coup takes place. Until India decides that enough is enough and crushes the back of the Pak Army and ISI, there will be continued attacks against civilians in India increasing in number and sophistication.

The only aim of the Pak security establishment is the destabilization of India, and until they’re extinct, there’s no hope for peace.

I do hope that India launches a full scale war to completely destroy the Pak Army, and then hand back the reins of government to the civilian leadership, who seem to be sincere in their peace initiatives but are mere spectators in the current scenario.

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive
 

Lord McCauley has succeeded…

Lord McCauley in his speech of Feb 2, 1835, British Parliament:

“I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation”.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Dev,

I am in full sympathy with India for the victims of the Mumbai massacre, there’s no doubt about that.

But your proposal of a full-scale attack on Pakistan by India is beyond belief. And your thinking, that in the aftermath of a “successful” war, that India can hand back the reigns of power to a civilian government in Pakistan, is an illusion.

My country, the USA, has unfortunately followed illusions for the past 7 years. We thought our wars would be a piece of cake. As you know, those wars still continue unabated.

I’m sorry that, my country, the USA, has set a terrible example in international relations to the rest of the world. This idea of pre-emptive war in the 21st century is lunacy.

Yes, terrorism must be fought squarely on several levels.
Yes, in this case, Pakistan is responsible for terrorism emanating from its soil and must take corrective actions.
Yes, Pakistan has made some flip-flops on sending its head of the ISI to India. They have been very clumsy at best and deceptive at worst.

But there are solutions to problems in the world of today other than the lunacy of wars-many other solutions.

And countries should be also a little more mature in their reactions, especially nuclear-armed countries.

And if India were to launch a full-scale war against Pakistan, you can be sure I would take Pakistan’s side.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Alethia,

You’re seeing this as an isolated incident. For those who have lived through the days of the Kashmir militancy sponsored by Pakistan, where we used to read about a bomb blast here and a massacre there every single day (I’m not exaggerating) in the media, as well as the denials issued by Islamabad after every such attack, enough is enough. We have the capability to crush Pakistan and break it into many parts, just like we did in 1971. However, India has always exercised astonishing restraint in the face of massive atrocities inflicted on it. You woke up to the menace of terrorism only after 9/11. Indians have been experiencing this for more than 2 decades.

Every nation has a breaking point. You cannot expect us to absorb every such attack and go on with our lives as if nothing had happened. Just in the last decade alone, the Pakistan military invaded India in the form of the Kargil War of 1999, staged the attack on the Indian Parliament in 2002, after which India massed a million troops along the border with Pak-war was a very real possibility then. The only way it was resolved was because the Government of Pakistan made a pledge to dismantle the terrorist networks it had created and supported against India. It banned a few organizations and made a few cosmetic house arrests-and released them within months after the situation had cooled down.

In July this year, the Afghan cell of the ISI launched a deadly bombing attack on the Indian embassy in Afghanistan that killed 60 people and injured many more. And in December, the Mumbai attacks claim more than 500 dead or injured. This is after the pledge made by the Pak government in 2002. Everything has a limit-India will not go on suffering in silence while Pakistan continues to engage in massacres of innocent civilians.

It does not matter who you support-like they say, you have to walk a mile in someone’s shoes to feel their pain. I myself used to criticise Israel because of their heavy handed tactics and warlike approach towards their neighbours. But now I give them full credit for their policies. Unless you show the terrorists that you’re willing to take the war to their safe havens, and cause massive destruction on a scale that Israel inflicted on Lebanon 2 years ago after one of their soldiers was kidnapped, these brainwashed extremists will not give up.

Until you suffer from terrorism for decades sponsored by your neighbour who constantly denies involvement and threatens war, you will never be in a position to judge us.

Posted by Dev | Report as abusive
 

I just want to say that Pakistan is not involved in Mumbai incidents, because Pakistan itself huntered by terrorism sponsored by indian terrrist grouped named “RAW” and american army. Indian government knows that those Mumbai attacks were sponsored by and Indian Political group named B.J.P to secure seats in next coming elections in India, and they are blaimimg Pakistan and Defeming Pakistan and want to attack on Pakistan but India should know it very well that if India attacks on Pakistan then Pakistan is ready to answer India in a dangerous way ant then India will be nowhere on the worldmap.

Posted by Hammad | Report as abusive
 

Dev,

Look, my opinion is only a spec in this wide world. Yes, I realize that you, who are innocent, have to live right there in the midst of these terrorists. But so do innocent Pakistanis.

I personally do have cousins in the American navy and airforce who have served and are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thank God they are O.K.

I am not judging Indians but cautioning Indians not to fall into the trap of this pre-emptive war which my country, unfortunately, has done.

As you already know, I have a high respect for the people and the culture of India and Pakistan. I think I have been humble in my approaches and have admitted some of my mistakes here in this column.

But I am squarely opposed to full scale war between the two countries and on that issue I will not budge.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Alethia

– a ‘full-fledged’ war can only take place if America decides one & gives Pakistan the go ahead,Be rest assured that India will never ever strike first…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

First, as a Pakistani, I strongly condemn every heinous act which kills human beings (particularly innocent people), whether they are in Mumbai, Bali, London or Karachi.

I suggest to the war mongering Indians that they should not forget that previous attacks in India which were blamed on Pakistan (consistent with the Indian government habit to blame every problem on Pakistan) turned out to be the work of Indian army people (two examples are 1. Samjhota express – resulting in the rape & death of thousands & thousands of Muslims 2. Malegaon killings of Muslims). The fact is that India turns a blind eye to domestic Hindu terrorism, whether it is the killing of hundreds of Christians (including nuns) or that of thousands of Muslim men & women.

Further during the Mumbai attack, Karkare, the ATF chief and three of his investigators were killed during the first ten minutes of the attacks. These people had found conclusive evidence pointing to Indian army involvement in the Malegaon attacks and were about to complete the investigation. A strange coincidence, that they were the first to be killed.

India has yet to provide any evidence of Pakistan’s involvement, whether it be the alleged LeT or others. This was confirmed by INTERPOL chief Ronald Noble during his recent visit to South Asia. He said “India has provided no names or information that would allow police in other countries to check their databases, calling it “not acceptable” for New Delhi to provide those details to the media first”. So India wants Pakistan to do what it orders it to do, based on media reports or based on pressure from others who are capitalizing on the situation.

Pakistan is already fighting extremists in the northern part of the country and trying to get rid of these terrorists who were most likely behind the Marriott and other bombings in Pakistan. If India continues its belligerence and try to dictate terms to Pakistan, that could spell disaster for the entire region and could spill further out. Lets not forget that the real enemy for Pakistan & India are poverty, illiteracy and lack of basic human needs.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive
 

Myra seriously now, the idea that these attacks were financed by Dawood Ibrahim is easily the funniest claim so far and I am sure such spin is being used to further confuse the matter, one only has to sensibly look at who has the most to gain from these attacks to get an idea of what’s really going on.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive
 

Anup,
What is the source of Lord McCauley Feb 2, 1835 speech to the British Parliament which you listed? Just curious.

I suggest you read the book “Partition of India: Legend & Reality by H.M.Seervai – Advocate General of Maharashtra – 1957 to 1974″. It has some quotes which credit Lord Macauley for the decision to impart primary education in vernacular languages & higher education in English in India. This resulted in the establishment of universities in Calcutta, Madras and Bombay in 1857. These were the foundation for the English educated Indian middle class today.

Macualey’s observation “I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief” may or not be true then, however, lets face the fact, India is full of beggars and thieves today. Of course, India is not alone in that. The injustice of Corporations and selfish leaders keep people in poverty and deprivation.

Posted by Nasir | Report as abusive
 

Nasir
Macaulay’s Minute on Education was dated February 2, 1835. The Governor General of India, William Bentinck approved the Minute on March 7, 1835 and it became the cornerstone of British India educational policy.
Macaulay’s Minute on Indian Education is a public document that is made available in sources such as Young (1935) and Sharp (1920). Young (1935) says that a complete copy of the document is not found in the British Museum. What is available in the above cited sources and in Trevelyan (1876)
Your praiseworthy comments For Lord Macaulay & the present plight of the poverty stricken Sub-continent validate my conjecture regarding the success of the Indophobist Macaulay…although I doubt he would have imagined in his wildest dream of the disastrous Political / Social / Geographical & Cultural damage of his perceived & implemented policy on India…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

John Michael McConnell, the United States Director of National Intelligence, in a speech at Harvard University, soon after Mumbai massacre said that the same group responsible for the 2006 Mumbai train bombings was behind Mumbai attack of 2008.The strategy of Pak army / ISI against Indian civilians stands on one solid single pillar- PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY. This time in Mumbai they messed up in the execution and have been caught red handed. They had gotten away so many times.

Indians have to really thank Ajmal Amir Kasab and the brave police man belonging to lower cadre of Mumbai police who was responsible for the capture of Mr.Kasab and died in the process.

LET was involved in attacks in New Delhi in October 2005, and in Bangalore in December 2005.

Examples of recent major terror attacks include a coordinated series of bombings in market and temple areas of the tourist city of Jaipur, Rajasthan (May 2008), an attack on a government paramilitary facility in Uttar Pradesh (December 2007), coordinated bomb blasts at court facilities in three cities in Uttar Pradesh (November 2007), an explosives blast in a cinema hall in Punjab (November 2007), two explosions at a popular park and restaurant in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh (August 2007), an explosion at the main mosque in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh (May 2007), the detonation of explosive devices on a train northwest of Delhi (February 2007), simultaneous attacks on Mumbai commuter trains (July 2006), simultaneous attacks on a train station and places of worship in Varanasi (March 2006), and simultaneous attacks on several markets in New Delhi (October 2005).

Contrary to some popular rumors, false hopes among Pakistanis the issue will not go away anytime soon. This is not an India-Pakistan issue, but an international one. India is going to blow hot and cold with revelations and media releases, to keep it going; and the international community is likely to go along with India and demand action from Pakistan.

 

Johnny,

You just prove how easily the media and the comments of indian politicians can blind the lay person already looking for an excuse to blame all the ills of the world on a designated ‘Islamic’ target, maybe John Michael McConnell had some information which might be of use if he did in fact make the claims you are suggesting as the mumbai train bombings were carried out by Hindu religious extremists and like on this occasion pakistan was initialy blamed by indian poiliticians and an adamant media.

I suggest you actually think and do some research before posting things that are clearly based on your inside fear and loathing of pakistan and probably muslims in general.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hindu-e xtremists-held-for-deadly-bombings/2008/ 10/26/1224955853361.html

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan must realize that the jehadi mentality being injected into millions of kids through its Saudi funded madrasas only sows seeds of hatred. This would only ensure that future generations in Pakistan continue to wallow in hopelessness, hatred and bitterness as they see a democratic multi ethnic India progressing by leaps and bounds.

I am an Indian American, a Hindu by birth, but extremely proud of the fact that I grew up in a muliticultural country where folks of all religions coexist as equal citizens. While renegade individuals and fringe groups with extreme mindsets may be found in India as everywhere else, the law of the land and the Indian constitution treats every person equally irrespective of her or his religion.

Even at this moment, the Indian Prime Minister hails from a minority group (the brave and industrious ‘Sikh’ community). The Indian President happens to be a woman. She was preceded by a person of the muslim faith. Incidentally he was NOT the first person from the muslim faith to become the president of India. We have also had a Sikh president, just as we have had a person from the lowest Hindu caste become the President of India.

Similarly the Indian Army, Navy and Airforce have had Chiefs that belong to faiths that are numerically minority groups in India. The previous Army chief was a Sikh, and the current Air Force Chief is a Parsi (Zoroastrian faith).

To those who write in this forum that Pakistan has millions of folks from non-muslim faiths living with equal rights, could you please step forward and mention one Pakistani President, Prime Minister or Army/Navy/Airforce chief past or present from the Sikh/Christian/Parsi or Hindu faith? Could you also explain why Pakistani cities like Lahore that had only 50% muslim inhabitants as per 1951 census, today have 94% muslims! What happened to all those Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and Parsis that lived there. Did they just vanish into thin air? Or were they forcibly converted / killed, as has happened all along in history under the sword of Islam?

Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947 after the persistent ‘islam in danger’ rhetoric of its Whisky drinking, pork eating, cigarette smoking founder Jinnah (who slept with the young daughter of a distraught friend in the friend’s home while abusing the gracious hospitality of the friend). Less than 30 years after its birth, Pakistan proved wrong the logic of its formation – Muslim unity – when East Pakistan seceded from the West, the common chord of Islam notwithstanding. Bangladesh came into being, after 9 months of serious human rights violations by the Pakistani army over civilians especially women and girls in East Pakistan.

The political ‘last straw’ that broke Pakistan into two was the steadfast refusal of the West Pakistanis (Punjabis) to cede political power to political leaders from the East that had legitimately won the majority in Federal elections. Instead of allowing Sheikh Mujib the political leadership of the Nation, Pakistani Army generals ordered the army to plunder and bludgeon the East Paksitanis (Bengalis). One wonders what the Quaid e Azam (Jinnah) would have had to say had he lived to see the genocide perpetrated by his army on fellow muslim men and women on the Eastern half of Pakistan. Ironically, muslim refugees from East Pakistan streamed into refugee camps in India to escape the genocide and rape perpetrated by muslim soldiers of the Pakistani army!

The resulting India-Pakistan war of 1971 was the most decisive since World War II. Under Mrs Indira Gandhi’s political leadership, Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, comprehesively defeated the Pakistan Army in 13 days, resulting the the most ignominous even of Pakistan’s history. The ‘signing of surrender’ in Dacca by the Pakistani Army Commander General Niazi, who after signing the surrender document stood up and hugged the victors, the Indian Military commanders. The ‘one Pakistani soldier can take on 10 Indian/Hindu soldiers’ rhetoric notwithstanding, 93000 Pakistani soldiers surrenders to Indian Soldiers in Dacca. In numerical terms, this was the largest surrender in battle since WWII.

The comprehensive victory in the military theater was complemented by the Indian bureacracy as well. Within no time, Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) was aided by India in its efforts to quickly transition into a full fledge functioning nation. That was the first time since WWII that a nation was surgically midwived through an act of war. The brave Bengalis of ‘Mukti Bahini’ fought almost barehanded alongside the Indian Army to defeat the Pakistani army.

Ironically, instead of realizing the folly of spewing hatred against India, while muzzling the aspirations of minorities within Pakistan, the defeat and surrender of 1971 further institutionalized ‘jihad’ and violence by the Pakistan army – as a state policy. Convinced that they can never win against India in conventional theaters of war, the Pakistan army began seeking proxy routes to inflict damage to India. Every Pakistani cadet to this day takes an oath in every military training establishment to avenge and dismember India sacrificing his life in the process if need be!

After 1971 the Pakistani Army and its intelligence outfits began channeling resources and people into subversive activities in the Indian states bordering Pakistan. While it did this cladenstinely in the 1970s, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan gave Pakistan the opportunity to curry favor with the US. From the American perspective, Pakistan’s location made it an idea launching pad for CIA operations against Russian forces in Afghanistan. In an amazing quid-pro-quo Gen Zia ul Haq of Pakistan promised the Americans Pakistani Army infrastructer to raise terror camps to invite and train jobless muslim youth from all over the muslim world to fight the Russians. From the American side, all Zia wanted was, a free hand to divert mercenaries and terror onto India as well.

Armed with billions of CIA dollars and a steady supply of American weaponry, Gen Zia entrenched himself into an unassailable position both militarily as well as politically within Pakistan. Outside of Pakistan, within the Muslim ‘ummah’, Zia began relishing dreams of rivalling Saudi Arabia and Iran as the fountain head of Islamic leadership. While religiously Saudi could not be replaced as the center of the Islamic consciousness so long as Mecca and Medina are located there, and politically Iran had gained notoriety as the longest thorn in the American flesh, Zia wanted to land Pakistan’s imprint on the Islamic psyche world wide.

The idea of building the largest Mosque in the world fascinated him, however to garner enduring respect from the Islamic word, Zia aspired for something even more enduring. Therein began the race to be the first (muslim) nation to build the Islamic (atom) bomb. ‘We will eat grass if needed, but we must have the bomb”, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, had once remarked, stoking unfounded fears that India would nuke Pakistan. Zia, now emboldened by American acquiescence for carrying water for the Americans in Afghanistan, now began a policy of ‘beg, borrow, or steal” to ‘come what may, we need the nukes”. In Dr. Abdul Qadir ‘Xerox’ Khan, the military establishment found the right combination of talent needed for ‘nukes by hook or crook’. AQ Khan in right earnest stole and photocopies blue prints for nuclear installations from Eruope and helped build the islamic bomb.

‘Xerox’ Khan also excelled in transferring technology and knowhow to other renegade elements in the Islamic world to help lunatics create the bomb, in exchange for political capital and goodwill to his handlers in the Pakistani Army. General Musharraf and his ISI gave Xerox Khan unquestioned powers and privileges (including a dedicated aircraft) in his role as the ‘nuclear proliferator’ in chief.

It was only when the CIA, frustrated by its inexplicable inability to nab Bin Laden despite outwardly expression of ‘cooperation’ by Pakistani Army in nabbing Taliban, began taking a hard and renewed look at the antecedents of Pakistani Intelligence, that the truth began to hit home. Pakistan has always abetted and protected Islamic terrorism while pretending to be on the American side. In short the Pakistani duplicity of ‘run with the hare while hunting with the hounds’ began to unravel.

The CIA accosted Gen Musharraf with irrefutable details of Pak involvement with Bin Laden and Taliban (including in 9/11) on the one hand, and also with proof about Dr. ‘Xerox’ Khan transporting nuclear centrifuges to Lybia. Faced with overwhelming evidence that pointed to his own direct involvement, Musharraf, decided to make Dr. AQ ‘Xerox’ Khan the fall guy. Dr Xerox Khan’s plane with nuclear components was confiscated as it was about to take off. Xerox Khan was given the customary ‘House arrest’ which is a euphemism in Pakistan for ‘a life in luxury as a state guest minus media appearances’. Till date, ISI/ Pak Army have refused CIA to question Dr. Xerox Khan, lest the trail lead on to the door steps of the Pak Army and its intelligence!

This episode soured the Bush-Musharraf honeymoon irreversibly. Else this relationship was destined to overshadow all previous US Republican President-Pakistani Dictator relationships of the past, including the infamous Nixon-Yahya Khan love fest (that ended with Nixon’s exasperated rants to Kissinger about Mrs Indira Gandhi – “that old witch” – as Indian troops cut Pakistan. All Nixon could do to display solidarity to his beleguered drunkard Pakistani General Yahya Khan, was assurance to the effect that Nixon would ensure that Indira Gandhi’s Army would not endanger Yahya’s personal security!).

Posted by Setu Madhavan | Report as abusive
 

Regarding Setu Madhavan’s post on December 28, 2008
7:18 am GMT. I wonder I could not find a single word “Kashmir” in the whole thesis. Can I question why mention of Kashmir makes Indians jump like “headless chickens”? What about “peaceful nuclear explosion” or ironically called “smiling Buddha”, since then India started nuclear black mailing in South Asia.

Posted by Julius | Report as abusive
 

To Setu Madhavan:

Your assertion that India is such a diverse country is very true. When it comes to diversity and minorities in high office, all other countries pale in comparison, including my own country, the USA.

I have traveled to several countries including India and Pakistan where I have several dear friends. Again, next to India, Pakistan has much less diversity and fewer minorites in high office.

But when you compare Pakistan to all other Muslim countries, it is enormously more diverse and pays close atentin to its minorities.

The last chief justice was Hindu, Mr. Bagwandas. Minorities are being inducted into the armed forces.Pakistan has functioning Hindu temples ,Sikh Gurdwaras, Christian churches, Parsi temples, and non-Muslim tribes dating back to lineage of Alexander the Great.

I’m afraid you are dwelling on the past too much. Yes, some of those terrible events you mentioned did happen.
But don’t dwell on the past to create hatred in the present. It’s not good.

The one thing that Pakistan must be credited for, if nothing else, in the past several years and in the present is its rebirth of minority rights, as exemplified in parliamentary representation.

The uplift of minorities and the rebuilding of their house of worship, a previously neglected area, is one of the true bright spots in the Pakistan of today.

I believe many in India will give Pakistan credit for that.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

If pakistan is moving its army from western border to eastern border, what is stopping America Army hitting known terrorist targets deep inside Pakistan territory in ground offensive.I mean they are hitting them with missiles already.
This will neutralize the blackmail tactics used by the Pakistan’s govt/Army/ISI (whoever is in command)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

‘I believe many in India will give Pakistan credit for that.’
–We are ready to give Pakistan all the credit of building / breaking & what not, all we ask in exchange is that they reign in their covert ISI’s activities aimed at India & cure the hallucination of their Armies ambition of fluttering the Pakistan flag on the Red Fort, leave us in peace is our heartfelt request…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

It is absolutely true that the bomb blasts in the train service between India and Pakistan and the bomba blasts in a town called Malegon were carried out by Hindu terrorists.

The above fact does not absolve Pakistan in its complicity in terrorism in India. It is like saying since there were two hindu terrorist attacks, this disproves 98 other Pakistan sponsored terrorist attacks in India.

The goals of Pak army and ISI in sponsoring these ataacks are as follows:

1. First, Use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy. They genuinely believe these attacks will force Indians to negotiate with them on many disputes. This technique is used by Pakistan in its negotiations with America also. Turning the terror tap on and off for money and to get what Pakistan wants.

2. Second, Sowing discord, hatred between Hindus and Muslims in India, trying to destabilize India. Hindu militant outfits are the best Pakistan can hope for in this regard, since they walk right into the trap laid by Pakistan.

3.Third, trying to undermine India’s economy, threatening tourist industry. Thus the attacks on Indian Institute of Science, and Taj hotel etc.

Ironically Pakistan army, and ISI have not achieved anything useful for the state of Pakistan. The only thing they have achieved is making Pakistan very infamous across the world for very wrong things.

Pak economy is on life support and the future looks bleaker UNLESS of course if it makes a dramatic U-turn and becomes a nation focussed on economic development. Unfortunately, this looks unlikely.You would think you would focus on building a Pakistan Institute of Science or Pakistan Institute of Technology to match India.

India has to dramatically boost counter-terrorism efforts. India is winning, and will continue to win if it maintains internal harmony and remains focussed on economic development. Considering the size, and the diversity of its population what India has accomplished so far conducting impartial elections for 61 years, viable instituitions, and so on.

The Pakistanis take great pleasure in highlighting India’s failures. Thus they celebrate any events or articles written by a few authors depicting India in a bad light. This is like a student who got F- and is being threatened of dismissal from the school making fun of good student who got B+ grades.

 

Johnny
Although the Malegaon blast is the handiwork of hindu terrorists, the train blast case was actually being credited to them by an enthuthiastic Hooda government under the impression that it would please Madam Sonia, only to retract hastily knowing that the frame up is weak, a sheer vulgar display of Congress Sycophancy…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Since I joined the debate late, I have a long list of comments on various posts.
But first Myra,
The redeployment of troops by pakistan on the indo-pak border has two main reasons:
A. to stop fighting against its ally(the taliban), who have said that they will fight alongside the pakistan army it India goes to war.
B. to divert attention from the main issue,Terrorism(Sponsored by ISI ).
I don’t see any reason why people are expecting war when the Prime Minister of India has said that ,”Nobody wants war.War is not the issue,terrorism is”.

Diplomatic force cannot be effective beyond a certain extent. And I personally don’t trust the Americans in this(Indo-US aliiance = 2-3 years but Pak-US alliance= 50-55 years). And now that pakistan is removing troops from afgan border, US is under a higher pressure.

Alethia,
A.I advice you to get information from trusted sources before posting them on the internet. You may be misguiding people.

B. You commented that ,”Therefore, due to the history of mistrust and erroneous blame, Pakistan is currently unconvinced of Indian evidence that the terrorists of Mumbai are the nationality that India says they are. At that’s why Pakistan is demanding bona fide evidence form India before taking further actions.”

What does “bona fide” evidence mean? Do you expect the Indian government to show a photocopy of Kasab’s birth certificate? When the guy has admitted that he is from pakistan, then evidence from satellite phones and the intelligence findings point to pakistan, I don’t know what could be a more concrete evidence.
C.However I agree with you in one of your comment.
“there should be a differentiation between Pakistan’s government & people and terrorists residing in Pakistan.”
And you should understand that India understands this more than anyone else.That is why we haven’t seen IAF jets decimating pakistan after 26/11.(Unlike the US post 9/11).

“And if India were to launch a full-scale war against Pakistan, you can be sure I would take Pakistan’s side.”
Don’t worry India is not USA!

Marky Andrez,

Allow me to quote your very funny comment sir,
“And despite such large resources what I am unable to understand is that how can just 10 or 12 people take Mumbai city hostage for 60 hours? The last terrorist was able to sustain for 8 hours . Either the terrorists were much more trained than whole Indian commandos and army, OR there is something more under the carpet….”

This clearly points to your meager knowledge on military combat. Sir, even though there were only 10 terrorists, they had a few advantages viz,
1. The element of surprise.
2. This was not fought in battle field but in an urban setting. For example, the Taj had about 400 rooms, and the no of ways for 4 people to occupy 400 rooms is??(I leave it to the mathematicians)
3. Hostages.NSG attempted to save as many as they could. And succeeded.
Let me bring it to your notice sir, that Indian NSG is among the most talented in the world.

Peace,

“Dawood Ibrahim is an indian and not Pakistani”
That is why India can’t understand why pakistan is not sending him back to India.
“Lone surviving terrorist is Hindu, why his wrist band removed from photos which are being showed on various indian media.”
People who wear arm bands are hindus???? well, so that means I can’t be a hindu. Please, avoid making such moronic conspiracy theories.
“Who supported the separation of Pakistan in 1971. india always have ill-intentions towards Pakistan”
People of bangladesh dont think so.

Nasir,
Yes, you are right, the response of the Indian government to the recent riots is far from satisfactory.But I don’t understand how this has any significance to the present topic.

“Further during the Mumbai attack, Karkare, the ATF chief and three of his investigators were killed during the first ten minutes of the attacks. These people had found conclusive evidence pointing to Indian army involvement in the Malegaon attacks and were about to complete the investigation. A strange coincidence, that they were the first to be killed.”

1. They were NOT the first to be killed.
2. They were NOT killed during the first 10 mins of attack
3. The Mumbai police has submitted a detailed report, this was follwed by the Home Minister of India who stated that there is no conspiracy in this event.
I suggest you read more newspapers.

“Lets not forget that the real enemy for Pakistan & India are poverty, illiteracy and lack of basic human needs.”

I agree with you on this. Well said!

Hammad
Good Morning!!!! Looks like you had a nice dream.

“Indian government knows that those Mumbai attacks were sponsored by and Indian Political group named B.J.P to secure seats in next coming elections in India,”
You really want us to believe that OUR own people attacked Bombay? Sometimes conspiracy theorists are very lunatic.

“Pakistan is ready to answer India in a dangerous way ant then India will be nowhere on the worldmap.”
1965,1971,1999. That’s my answer.(Now don’t tell me that pakistan defeated India in these wars!!)

Ali,

“the mumbai train bombings were carried out by Hindu religious extremists ”

WHERE DID YOU GET THAT NEWS??

Finally I would like to add some points,

1. War is NOT an option.
2. Terrorism has no religion, please avoid using words like “hindu terrorists” or “muslim terrorists”.
3. Pakistan is not going to dismantle the terror outfits easily, diplomatic pressure alone will not do.

Posted by yogesh | Report as abusive
 

it is easy for indian media and govt. persons to point fingre towords pakistan and propagat in whole world,because world is based on princeple of unjustice. strong only have to point at weaker no evedence is requied. why this whole world dont ask india for international inquiry commission? In 2002 indian parliment attacks also india did not provided in evedence to the world for alleged involvment of pakistan.

Posted by zahid nazir | Report as abusive
 

How crazy it can be? Instead of talking about peace, harmony, humanity, prosperity and better future for comming generations, these heartless war mongers talk about war and distruction. Have not we have seen enough of such tragedy where helpless people become more helpless for the benefit of few self-centered idiots, whether they are Hindu or Muslim or followers of any other so called stupid religions. Remember, Religion is for crackpots. The idiots prefer to use it like an umbrella when it is raining, but other times they throw it in the corner of their living room, as a worhtless piece of utencil, at will.

 

To all those who consider Pakistan involvement in mumbai incident or other similer failure of indian intelligence and forces…..
give one single yes only one evidence in favour or your contention —- without using the words spoon feeded into your mouth by media…..

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

India and the rest of the world would be in a illusion if they are thinking pakistan will correct itself because of diplomatic pressure.. did the atttacks in afganistan comedown after pakistan started crack down in tribal areas ?? did the infiltration in to Indian border stop after numerous deals and peace talks with years between india and pakistan ??
Only way is the Israel style – revenge.
India should declare for every 1 person killed in India by terrorists we will kill 10 people in pakistan. only then will pakistan start acting to stop militancy. Everybody just forget diplomacy with pakistan..simply because you are not dealing with diplomats..but terrorists and their sponsorers.

Posted by Om | Report as abusive
 

‘Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947 after the persistent ‘islam in danger’ rhetoric of its Whisky drinking, pork eating, cigarette smoking founder Jinnah (who slept with the young daughter of a distraught friend in the friend’s home while abusing the gracious hospitality of the friend).”

Setu, I see that you’re a Tarun Tejpal fan. Your post’s tone is clearly anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim. That’s in its place and has some merit. However I take great exception to your Jinnah’s depiction which was unnecessary. Let me go through your post.

Jinnah fell romantically in love with Ruttenbai and vice versa, who was his friend’s, Sir Dinshaw Petit’s daughter. They married later on and she took the name Maryam Jinnah. Jinnah’s first wife had already passed away. Unlike Nehru, he was no womanizer (Mountbatten’s wife and others). And lets not get into the controversy with Gandhi’s preferences.

Jinnah and Nehru were secularists. Nehru was agnostic. Jinnah was a non-practicing Muslim who did drink, but then dropped the habit later in his life and certainly no drunkard. M.C. Chagla had written about Jinnah eating pork in his 70′s autobiography. However not mentioned is Chagla was sacked by Jinnah when they had serious disagreement on partition and severed ties (also in question was Chagla’s knowledge of what was ordered at a lunch date he was absent from). Servants of Jinnah in England have never reported any such meals nor has any other confidante or enemy. Chagla’s charge is often repeated by Indian historians and critics.

Jinnah believed in a Muslim state (which he did not earlier in life) and not a religious state or Khilafat as many proclaim as he had even criticized Gandhi of religious zealotry. He was a fan of Kemal Attaturk and Turkey’s Muslim secular transformation. So the term would be “Muslim in danger” rhetoric which if you follow the clashes during that time, indeed it WAS happening, and became a self-fulfilling prophecy during partition. We can go on debating on the deals and packages between Congress and the Muslim League and their realities since the 30′s but it would be pointless.

There are other points in your post I have issues with, though they are really minor, and posting about Jinnah in poor light is unnecessary grief. You wanted to discredit the man’s integrity to justify any criticism of Pakistan’s ‘non-destiny existence’ and that’s poor. The bottom line is today’s Pakistan is far from Jinnah’s good vision (and you may have your own opinion, but most believe it to be genuine and I am one of them).

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive
 

Seems like for every Peace there is an Om. lol.

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive
 

Let’s face facts. Pakistan has a militant problem. End of story. I may not trust the Indian government, but I don’t trust the Pakistani government more!

The only conspiracy is a self made ISI one. Where we’re feeling a full scale blow back.

“Militant wearing colored arm bands therefore a Hindu extremist?!”

That has got to be the dumbest deduction ever. My cousins wear colored orange yellow bands and they’re not Hindus. Sadly I see this repeated by many Pakistani posters.

Its the month of Muharram. Expect some bombings on Shia Muslim processions by Wahabi/Salafi/Deobandi or Sunni Muslim extremists. But many Pakistanis will be in self denial and delusional blaming RAW for it.

Posted by bigsaf | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is NOT going to have “peace” internally and externally. If any one disputes this declaration, all they have to do is to read the posts from one “PEACE” here. No scope for “peace” if the likes of “PEACE” run Pakistan!!

 

Now that tempers seem to have calmed down a little and India and Pakistan are both throwing cold water on the prospect of war, I’d like to make some proposals:

1) India and Pakistan should get over their reticence and begin sharing intelligence with eachother on the terrorism which is present in both countries.

2) The terrorists who committted the Mumbai massacre should be indentified with bona fide evidence, i.e., India should give the evidence it has to Interpol and through Interpol Pakistan must take that evidence and act on it. (I’m not accusing India of withholding evidence, they needed time to gather it and I’m confident they had every intention all along to supply it when the investigation was over).

3) Would the governments of India and Pakistan please put in place a ruling that until investigations are complete, no police, no leaks to news agencies, and no other officials should be allowed to give his/her opinion as to who they think committed a terrorist attack.

4) Will the governments of India and Pakistan please continue their composite dialogue. Do not allow terrorists to set your agenda.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan And India:
My confession: “I am a Pskitani national and I think people who prepetrated Mumbai attacks shall be tried in indian court. I think they are pakistani nationals though no ISI and/or Army is involved”

people with same ethnicity but hatred. The claims and claims and claims, In India, Pakistan is a 100% faulty nation with its founding fathers far from the integrity of Ghandhi. In pakistan, Ghandhi is a pupil of chaankia and sign of Hypocrisy. In India, people celebrate the indian victory and offense in 1971 as a victoy where they aggressed inside the border of another nation. in Pakistan, people hate it and think india meddled in their internal affairs. Shall we meddle in Kashmir also. because like East Pakistanis, a lot of kasmiris come to Paksitan and say they want to get rid of India. Kashmir, is a wrod which indians dont like to say or listen, The K word. The Million march on the roads of kasmir in May-August 2008 when indian flags were burnt is forgotten in India and Democracy is winning after a so called 69% voting, who cares when there is no international observation allowed to count how many voted. People who reply my comment will not even write the name of Kashmir. Hyderabad Dakkan, which was taken by india on the basis that the Raja wants to go with pakistan but the populations wants to go with India but in Kashmir, Raja wanted to go with india but population with Pakistan. The same logic did not serve the purpose of India. India first took the water of three Pakistani rivers in 60s and now closing Chenab even. I would love them to be at peace but they have to accept the K issue. India wants to speak the language of USA with us. The same language bush talked to Saddam. Dear brothers, we are not Iraq or Afghanistan and you are not USA. You are not sitting 10000 Kms from us. The fact is that you are our neighbor and in range of our missiles, planes and tanks. We want peace, but dont talk to us in the language you dont like to listen your self. Be friends and allow us to live. Dont speak the language of propaganda, use your brains, If we are united we can be powerful

Posted by Ahmed Jawad | Report as abusive
 

pak is not understood the basics in criminology. you cannot collect foolproof evidence at the site of crime alone. the available evidence has to be corroborated with evidence available with residence of the criminals and theirs perpetrators and helpers. responsible nation cannot damand foolproof evidence at the crime of site. they should interrogate with available evidence and make it fool proof. if this basic principle is not understood, then either they dont know about how to keep law and order or they should be acting. there cannot be third opinion

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive
 

The snake has been completely exposed. Other ppl have to feed it for survival. It has no plans for the future. It is emaciated, just encircle it.

 

Alethia,

I genuinely do like your post. To your proposal of continuing the Composite dialogue i do not share your enthusiasm.It is better to call off all these dialogues for now.The lahore walk was repaid with kargill, the parliament attack ended with no culprits being booked & now the mumbai attack has seen many dramas. Unless Pakistan moves into a democracy & there is clarity that the people of pakistan will rally behind their leader in decisions they make the whole thing to me looks futile & insincere.By the way Best wishes for a great new year.

Posted by Vijay | Report as abusive
 

The Indian troops-to-Kashmiri people ratio in the occupied Kashmir is the largest ever soldiers-to-civilians ratio in the world. There are approximately 700,000 Indian military forces–including regular army, para-military troops, border security force and police–currently deployed in the occupied Kashmir. This is in addition to thousands of “counter-militants” –the civilians hired by the Indian forces to crush the uprising.

Since the start of popular uprising, thousands of innocent Kashmir people have been killed by the Indian occupation forces. There are various estimates of these killings. According to government of India estimates, the number of persons killed in Occupied Kashmir between 1989 and 1996 was 15,002. Other Indian leaders have stated a much higher figure. For instance, former Home Minister Mohammad Maqbool Dar said nearly 40,000 people were killed in the Valley “over the past seven years.” Farooq Abdullah’s 1996 statement estimated 50,000 killings “since the beginning of the uprising.” The All-Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC)–which is a representative body of over a dozen Kashmiri freedom fighters’ organizations–also cites the same number. Estimates of world news agencies and international human rights organizations are over 20,000 killed.

Indian human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir include indiscriminate killings and mass murders, torturing and extra-judicial executions, and destruction of business and residential properties, molesting and raping women. These have been extensively documented by Amnesty International, US Human Rights Watch-Asia, Physicians for Human Rights, International Commission of Jurists (Geneva), Contact Group on Kashmir of the Organization of Islamic Countries–and, in India, by Peoples Union for Civil Liberties, the Coordination Committee on Kashmir, and the Jammu and Kashmir Peoples’ Basic Rights Protection Committee. Despite repeated requests over the years by world human rights organizations such as the Amnesty International, the Indian government has not permitted them any access to occupied territories. In 1997, it even refused the United Nations representatives permission to visit there.

Posted by John | Report as abusive
 

We’re DEFINITELY on the right track here. Let’s continue to put the cart before the horse.

Or how is this for an idea? In fact at the risk of sounding like a broken record, and please pardon my borrowing a line from the 1st Clinton run, but it is indeed:

THE KASHMIR PROBLEM STUPID!

The sooner India, the world’s biggest democracy, shakes off it’s positive allergy to SERIOUSLY, fully and finally discussing this ‘explosive’ issue (remember the democratically held UN Kashmiri plebisite?) the sooner the that WHOLE region and by extension, the West can feel safer.

Our courageous Musharraf and his multi one-way unanswered gestures (how unfortunate) may have left the scene, but PLEASE understand this:

Cosmetic and mere lip service CBM’s, stubbornly refusing to include near impatient and ready 3rd party mediators (US PRES. OBAMA being the latest) with the real hope that the issue will somehow be swept under the rug by the passage of time are a waste of both time and money. What do you fear? Peace? Or should we continue to insist on pieces?

HEEEELLLLLOOOOO????

Indian friends, is your government listening?

Posted by N. Javed | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir is a slogan and a smoke screen. Pakistan does not care about Kashmir. Pakistan only cares about hate. Get people distracted hating somebody and they won’t demand decent government. If the rest of Kashmir were given to Pakistan they would find some other excuse. If Pakistan conquered India, they would kill every Hindu.
East Pakistan had nothing to do with Kashmir or India. India rescued East Pakistan from total annihilation. After Partition Pakistan killed every Hindu who would not flee. In 1971 Pakistan attempted to kill every Bengali who would not or could not flee. The province would have been emptied of people. The question is, did the cia help to kill all those people. The Pakistanis were not systematic or organized enough to have done it alone. The cia certainly used their control over the US news media to downplay it. Since the cia was infiltrated after wwII by Nazis, it seems logical that these cia goons would help Pakistan kill three million people.
You have to realize that those three million people were real people. They did not expect the army attack. Most of those killed were children. Because of the cia control of US media, Pakistan has never been taken to task for anything. India is not much better. Indira Ghandi made a heroic move to free East Pakistan. But look what happened to her. They killed her, just like JFK. Look what has happened to the US. The land of the brave and the home of the free has become a cruel joke. We lost our democracy in 1963. Those goons rule us and we let them.

Posted by margaret khan | Report as abusive
 

Wow Margaret. I thought conspiracy theories were only propagated by my Pakistani brethren, but you take the cake.

The US Media did report the atrocities (check CBS coverage on youtube) much to Nixon’s dislike who turned the other way. The US stayed out of it, but did not condemn it. It was systematic and organized because it was being committed by the Pakistan Army.

After Partition I believe it cut both ways on the killings where Muslims and Hindus killed each other. It is also noted by most Historians that Muslim migrants were mostly killed. There did exist a Hindu minority (and still does) in Pakistan, but unfortunately the numbers HAVE drizzled DOWN considerably thanks to fanaticism and govt neglect, BUT KILLING every Hindu doesn’t hold water.

The CIA conspiracies of controlling the media (however the US govt has a brilliant PR system to show their side of the story),Gandhi and JFK’s assassination are just pure paranoia.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

What to say more for a country who says lies and lies only–previously it says it has provided all evidences to the world about Pakistan involvement in mumbai incident, forget to remove the thread from so-called terrorist hand and then edit photos and remove wrist band. Their PM is nowing to li_ck US sh_it and beg for help to save them from Pakistan, true nation. india has failed many times in its attempt to defame pakistan but as always this time also it has to lick again his own spit back.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive
 

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