Pakistani society in the throes of tectonic change?

January 14, 2009

Pakistan is dealing with multiple challenges all at once – its sovereignty and its very idea of itself as an independent nation state are tested in the northwest by both the Islamist militants and U.S. forces hunting them. To its east, the old hostility with India is back in full force following the Mumbai attacks. Then above all, some think the economic meltdown is a more serious risk to Pakistan’s survival than the threat of a conflict with India.

Where does a proud nation turn to for deliverance, faced with almost daily prognosis of its imminent demise?

To religion, going by the rise and rise of the mullah in Pakistani society according to a couple of articles in Pakistan’s Newsline magazine. Time was when the village mosque imam was one  of the most powerless men in the community whose social functions were limited to being present at  births, deaths and weddings, recalls author Mohammed Hanif .

The imam also led the prayers, but it was a different time then. There would be people loitering around the  mosque but it never occurred to him to ask them to join the prayers; nor were those hanging outside  the mosque embarrassed about sitting them out.

What was there to discuss? Faith was your personal  business, between you and your god. So a tiny majority went to the mosque regularly and another  opened “a bottle of something” in the evening, and they all lived on the same street.

Forty years later, the imam has metamorphosed into a television evangelist who preaches 24/7 on his own satellite channel, or goes around the nation building madrasas while some others are engaged in jihad. But each is flaunting an influence that they never had, according to Hanif, author of the book  “The Exploding Mangoes”.

“The mosque imam, who served an essential social function, has given way to another kind of mullah:  the power mullah, who drives in a four-wheeler flanked by armed guards; the entertainer mullah, who hogs the airwaves; and the entrepreneur mullah, who builds networks of mosques and madrasas and spends his summer touring Europe. And then there is the much maligned mullah with his dreams of an  eternal war and world domination,” he writes.

A pulpit in every living room across the nation? Do you agree or is it overdone? Hanif says there are 
frequent warnings in Karachi about the Taliban heading that way, with leaders like Altaf Hussain 
thundering about it. 

“But nobody seems to warn us about the preachers who are already here: the ones wagging their 
fingers on TV always tend to precede the ones waving their guns, smashing those TVs and bombing 
poor barbers,” Hanif says.

Last week bombs ripped through theatres in Pakistan’s cultural capital, Lahore, an attack that 
authorities linked to blasts in the city a few months ago aimed at scaring people off from such places where ”obscene” plays were being staged. A small group of extremists was targeting cinemas and theatres,  local police said.

So is the battle against the hardline Islamists that is being fought in the northwest especially the 
Federally Administered Tribal Areas and parts of the North West Frontier Province inching closer 
to home?

Pervez Hoodbhoy in a companion piece for Newsline said it was wrong to think Islamic radicalism was a problem only in the FATA and that madrasas are the only institutions serving as “jihad factories”. Extremism was breeding at a ferocious rate in public and private schools within towns and cities across Pakistan, which left unchallenged, would produce a generation unable to live with anyone but of its own kind

Hoodbhoy, who teaches physics at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, says Pakistan is in the throes of tectonic change at the cultural level, one that is tearing it away from South Asia and driving it toward the Arabian peninsula.

“Grain by grain, the desert sands of Saudi Arabia are replacing the rich soil that had nurtured a magnificent Muslim culture in India for a thousand years. This culture produced Mughal architecture, the Taj Mahal, the poetry of Asadullah Khan Ghalib, and much more. Now a stern, unyielding version 
of Islam (Wahhabism) is replacing the kinder, gentler Islam of the Sufis and saints who had walked on  this land for hundreds of years,” he says in the article headlined The Saudi-isation of Pakistan.

How did it happen? It happened because 25 years ago the Pakistani state turned to Islam as an instrument  of state policy. Prayers in government departments were deemed compulsory, floggings were carried out publicly, punishments were meted out to those who did not fast in Ramadan, selection for academic posts in universities required that the candidate demonstrate a knowledge of Islamic teachings and jihad was declared essential for every Muslim, he says.

“Today, government intervention is no longer needed because of a spontaneous groundswell of Islamic zeal. The notion of an Islamic state – still in an amorphous and diffused form – is more popular now than ever before as people look desperately for miracles to rescue a failing state,” he says.

So is the Talibanisation of Pakistan a creeping reality or just a myth, one more false warning? These are emotive issues and your comments are very welcome but let us debate positions, not attack people’s faiths, nor indeed the individuals themselves.

 {Reuters Photos of worshippers in Karachi and women protesters in Lahore]

56 comments

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I always thought to myself that in all the jugliness of men’s world.. be it religious riots, mass fighting or talibanization.. women were all the time sensible enough to stay away from such deeds. Can you please tell me what those pakistani women are protesting for in the picture ?? are they pro taliban or against against taliban ??

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Sanjeev
I am an educated Pakistani and young and have a good job in modern urban area in Pakistan. I keep an eye on international and current affairs. This is media age and just today you could see the interview of Syrian President Bashar Al- Asad on BBC who termed Israeli aggression and barbarity in Gaza equivalent to sowing the seeds of radicalization across the Middle East. I only wonder how does the pictures of Killing in Gaza will impact on the minds of ordinary Pakistanis and regular folks. Because when ordinary people have only access to TV, they do not do research on news stories and their minds are affected by the news and images alone.
It is true Pakistani society is become more inclined towards Islam, but let me assure you the true Islam is moderate. Islam has always preached moderation, anything in extreme is forbidden. Similarly reckless acts of terrorism have no place in Islam. Having said that, the Army the politicians and the feudal land lords have failed the ordinary people. People in Pakistani society are fed up of this cycle and want to break out.
Here I want to strongly emphasize the will and committment of Pakistani people. Pakistan have shown persistently failing symptoms and yet always come back from the brink. Pakistan is facing unique challenges but not unusual for a muslim nation of 160 million people possessing nuclear weapons and professional military, a leading country in muslim world after Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Malaysia, UAE etc.
Pakistani society is evolving for the better and there is no question of radicalization or Talibanization, these are only fancy terms invented that are irrelevant. The radicalism is only a result of injustices done to Muslims in Bosnia, Kashmir, Palestine etc. as muslims are empowered, muslim societies will become more stable.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

You can expect to see lots of abusive posts from Pakis who live in denial.

This picture is from a pak news paper

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20091\12\story_12-1-2009_pg1_10

Women are not allowed in the market,’ reads a banner displayed at the entrance of a market in Mingora. Taliban have banned the entry of women in markets and ordered the killing of women who violate the ban. Most shop owners have sold or shut down their businesses because of falling sales following the restriction. daily times

I am certain that Pakistan will soon fall into Taliban hands and will formally admit being the only terrorist nation in the world.

Examples are out there, only if some people don’t cover their eyes.

Swat valley has already fallen into Taliban hands and they have announced that after January 15 2009 girls will not be allowed to school in addition to killing of thousands of Pakistani army as well as beheading civilians.

My advise to YOU “stubborn” Pakistanis is to stop forcing yourselves to believe that you are in a peaceful era.

I hope you “Pakis” believe in karma because it’s coming. Enough of killing innocent Indians and destroying Afghanistan. It’s your turn now.

I am so looking forward to that day that Pakistan’s self created terrorists take over the entire Pakistan’s government and admit to what Pakistan have been involved in the past over 50 years of its horrified history.

“Pakis” when you people will learn???

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Umair, you said-
“the radicalism is only a result of injustices done to Muslims in Bosnia, Kashmir, Palestine etc. as muslims are empowered, muslim societies will become more stable.”

why should Pakis get radicalized by “injustice” done to Muslims in Bosnia or Palestine or even Kashmir. What has that to do with Pakistan?
Don’t you think Pakistanis are better of thinking of their economic upliftment?
Or better still, if Pakis are really bothered with injustice, would it not be nice to do positive constructive things?
It would be best if caring Pakis would put positive constructive efforts in helping all human injustice. In such a case they would be the most loved people of this world.

@Umair,

I agree with Afghan, the average Pak is living in denial, and while a lot of Pak society quietly sympathizes with the Taliban they are failing to realize that the Wahhabi/Taliban/Jihadists Madrassas and the celerity terrorist Imams are reaffirming the Dark Ages upon them and slowly and quiety pludering their culture, their image, society, country and worst of all corrupting their children, especially the poor.

It is time the focus shifts from India to the enemy within Pakistan. The Wahabi-Deoband Islamicist Political Agenda is destroying Pakistan.

The average Pakistani must quit wasting their energy on hating India/ISRAEL/USA.

People must start protesting against the cancerous ideology of Extremist Madrassas and Imams spewing unproductive endeovors.

The queston is, how many of Pakisan’s poor, and children must be allowed to be corrupted? How many suicide bombings, murders, Jihadi intimidation, death and destruction must be delivered unto the Pakistani’s their family and children, before they rise up collectively and cleanup the Islamicist virus in their own backyard.

They must act before it is too late.

Pakistan must decide, is Pakistan for the foreign Wahhabi’s? or is Pakistan for Pakistani’s?

Posted by Globa Watcher | Report as abusive

@UMAIR,

Your idea of injustice is when a country is not willing to give away pieces of itself to satisfy a minority group.

Your so-called freedom fighters, whereever they are, murder innocents. Such animals who kill and murder in the name of god do not deserve dialogue or internation recognition or attention of any kind. They deserve liquidation. Be careful who you endorse.

What ever happens in other countries has nothing to do with radicalization in Pakistan. If what happens in Bosnia, or another country is agitating you people, while a suicide bomber does not agitate you, after 100′s of innocent, Pakistanis are blown up in a cinema or a hotel, you suffer from a mental illness and are beyond help.

It is already too late for Pakistani’s if they are failing to hate the wahhabis and madrassas and radical Imams in their own country.

I have never seen one protest in Pakistan demanding the explusion of the Madrassas, Imams, foreign Jihadis and terrorists, all of these which have inflicted hell and death on Pakistan repeatedly on innocent Pakistanis.

It is time, for Paks to fight for their society.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Hima
You want to know why do Pakistanis get radicalized by injustices to other muslims in the world? It has everything to do with Pakistan. Muslims across the world are like one body, if one part is in pain the whole body is in pain. You tell me if your eye is sore, or your knee is in pain, can you sleep well in the night? I felt severe pain and sleeplessness when images of children and women and their suffering came out of Gaza. This is why Islam is a religion of unity, brotherhood and oneness of God. When we pray in the Mosque, doesnt matter beggar or King everyone is equal. There is no caste, no one is superior, worshippers of One God(Allah) are all equal. Every muslim is a brother of another muslim and is bound to help him in the hour of need, provide him shelter if he is homeless, share his lunch if he is hungry. These are positives of Islam never highlighted by fellow muslims too often. Atleast show solidarity by every possible way, one of ministers have given a statement in Pakistani parliament that as soon as supply routes are restored in Gaza, relief supplies from Pakistan will kick off. So this is positive constructive steps by Pakistan.
Caring Pakistanis serve as blue helmets across the world, UN peacekeeping missions across the world Pakistani troop strenght contribution is 10,000+ MORE than any other nation in the whole world. You can research the statistics. In Bosnia, during the height of war Pakistani peacekeepers donated their salary portion, did humanitarian relief operations that were out of their responsibility. In Somalia, Pakistani poeacekeepers loist 24 soldiers and did most dangerous disarmament work in civil-war torn country to stabilize it.
But again, as with Islam, Pakistan’s positive contribution and efforts are never acknowledge. That is why I always say, Pakistan could show persistently failing symptoms yet dramatically come back from the brink of collapse. This is a great nation capable of great achievements where people believe in their abilities to make things happen.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@UMAIR,

Umair, your problem at that problem of many like you, is that you view the world through purely Islamic Eyes. You cannot grasp the concept of universal morality and universal law. You cannot step out of the religious context and view the world in its natural form. It is something to be reformed in the image or words of one man, in your mind.

You also have continual memory lapses. Did you forget that Hamas itself called off the cease fire and started firing rockets into Israel. Israel pleaded with them to stop several times, offered dialogue, but they refused. Hamas stubbornly kept on firing those rockets.

Israel has every right to defend itself. Someone who starts fighting is not defendable, in this round of fighting, that was Hamas who started the fight.

From your language and your quiet complicity and sympathizing with terrorist events, it seems that you and perhaps many other like you, feel electrified and alive when there is a common hatred to bind you and what is so sad about your sympathizing, is that it is becoming more and more clear that this mystical brotherhood can only be kept together and fueled by hatred towards others.

It is becoming more and more clear to me than ever, if there was no ISRAEL, the mystical brotherhood would have created another enemy to define itself and electrify its members in the name of God. Perhaps India would have been the next Israel, who knows? The world will never be good enough for this brotherhood until it is all converted. New conflicts will be continually seeked out though “DAWAS”. It is this expansionist thinking, which will always bring destruction and conflict for the brotherhood. Be careful what you profess to preach.

How would you feel, if non-islamic countries had a brotherhood? Oh..I see…that is called “ganging – up?”.

The double standards and hatred will bring about the self-destruction of the brotherhood from within. It seems many prefer the path of destruction for themselves and others in the name of God.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Is it not talibization that a fictitious vitimhood is developed to justify bigotry?
Is it not talibization when human suffering is being narrowed down to muslim and non-muslim suffering?

The tectonic shift mentioned in the blog is very much alive and kicking and those who can prevent it are in denial mode, whether willingly or unwillingly only god know.
Unless the people themselves realize that and work against talibization, there is no hope. May be Pakis can learn something from Bangladesh.

Umair,

Though this is off topic, i am happy to see atleast on factual accuracy in your comment.
Here are the top three contributors to UNPKF
Bangladesh – 9567
india – 8693
Pakistan 11135
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/

If we can commend any country among these 3 based on head count than i guess its Bangladesh, much smaller country with a comparable presence.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Some people here pointed out a very interesting fact that Islam is a religion that does not care about the boundries of Countries, they quote because Bosnians and palestinians are muslims, pakistan has to do something with it.

Thats the root cause of every problem world is facing (Regarding terrorism), If islam obeys no boundries why there are boundries then, why there are more than 50 muslim nations. Whatever happening in Gaza is opposed by everybody except USA, no matter its Hindus of India, or Christians of France. But this will give birth to terrorists only in Saudi arab, Iran, Iraq and pakistan.

And fact is Pakistan started all this. In 80′s of the afghan war Pakistan used religion as a tool to motivate afghans against soviets. This was one of the biggest mistakes of civilized world. Whole world is divided into Muslims vs non muslims. Muslims see every non muslim as an enemy. Radical islam has become a monster for pakistan too. Very soon pakistan will be under the fire they sparked of there own.

Pakistan paints itself as a messiha of muslim nations but its help is available to only those who has something to offer. When pakistan has fought several times over Kashmir, why cant it help people of gaza, obviously people living in gaza has nothing to offer, and it will stop funds from USA. Pakistani are double standard on the issue of muslim brotherhood and they will see the consequences. This is also the reason why they are not doing anything agaist the terrorists who attacked mumbai, if they do their own people will become rebels, pakistan should have remembered that putting someone on the path of jihad is one way road, there is no turning back.

Same is the truth with muslim nations who care only for their own national interest (which they should also do), no matter what they say in media, they just pretend to promote muslim brotherhood. Result is some people cannot understan the bigger picture ,fall into the trap and become terrorists.

National interest should be the priority, if you put religious interest first then there is no need of nations.

Posted by Punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

CARROLLTON, Texas, January 13 /CNW/ — The founder and president of a Christian Ministry that operates over 30,000 worship centers in 10 Asian nations says he is terribly disturbed by the increasing persecution of Christians in his homeland of India. And while it is evident that the rising tide of harassment and crimes against Christians is being carefully orchestrated by nationalist Hindu groups, he says such behavior is not condoned by either Hinduism at large or by the vast majority of the Indian people.

Dr. K.P. Yohannan of “Gospel for Asia” said, “There is a lot of disturbing news coming out of India, a place where Christians and followers of other faiths have lived in peace together for centuries. Today, the Christians of India are being persecuted in ways that just a few years ago would have been unthinkable.”

Dr. Yohannan cited the reports he has received in just the past few weeks:

In the state of Jharkhand, radical Hindus beat up a 14-year-old girl and her mother, dragged them from their home and forced them to bow down before a man-made idol in an effort to force the girl to recant her faith. This was in spite of the fact that the girl considered the claims of the Gospel for three years and had her parents’ permission to become a Christian.
An estimated 2,000 tribal Christians are hiding out in the forests of Orissa state for fear of their lives after being threatened by anti-Christian fanatics.
At least 60 church buildings and hundreds of Christian homes have been destroyed. As a result, many believers are sleeping on piles of hay with only the clothes they were wearing when they escaped– and temperatures are hovering around 50 degrees F (10o C).
A pastor was beaten, his head was shaved, he was paraded through the streets, forced to bow to an idol and had his home destroyed.
All of the Catholic churches in one district have been burned down or left as unusable skeletons of buildings, with all furniture and other items burned.
A 300-year-old Baptist church is said to be scheduled for attack next week, as are two villages that are 80 percent Christian.
“All of this is on top of dozens and dozens of reports over the past several months of increased persecution against Christians from across India, including the beating up of some of our seminary students and even our women missionaries,” Dr. Yohannan said.“

Just the fact that these radicals are attacking women is a tremendously low thing that is totally unthinkable in normal Indian society. So the questions must be raised: ‘Who are these radicals in the streets, who is behind this violence and lawlessness, and why are they doing what they are doing?’ “

He then laid out some answers.

“What the Christians in the West need to understand is that this recent violence is not just the result of random acts by local gangs. It is carefully planned by the leaders of a few extremely radical Hindu nationalist organizations that want to totally destroy the Church in India.

“Many of those who attack churches and Christians are not from the local village, but come from many miles away. Then they try to enlist local youths to join them, and the attack is on. But the problem is not really the local villagers, because they usually welcome our missionaries and appreciate what they are trying to do for them. Rather, it is the extremist political parties who are behind it and their street thugs who do the dirty work.”

He cited a statement by the chairman of the Catholic Bishops Conference of India that lays blame for the attacks at the feet of the radicals.

After visiting Orissa, Cardinal Telesphore Toppo presented a letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in which he said the attacks against Christians were “undoubtedly premeditated” and “carried out by sectarian forces.” Other bishops have been even more outspoken, naming the radical Hindu organizations they say planned the attacks.

One GFA regional leader said the violence in Orissa is part of a deliberate plan to break down the will of the Christians, cut them off from outside assistance and then, when they are left cold, hungry and alone, force them to deny their faith.

Dr. Yohannan went on explain why the radicals are attacking the poorest Christians.

“When we hear of these attacks, it is usually against Dalit or tribal Christians,” he pointed out. “These are the Untouchables and others at the bottom of the caste system, and they have been held in slave-like conditions for more than 3,000 years. It is on the backs of these hopeless people that the upper castes have built their wealth, and their control is based on convincing the Dalits that they are sub-human, worth less than animals, and despised even by their gods.

“So when the Dalits and tribals hear the message that God loves them as much as any other person in the world, it is a radical message. They are responding by the thousands–and many in the upper castes are not happy at the prospect of losing their ’slaves.’

“To keep the Dalits in bondage, the radicals raise the argument that ‘to be Indian is to be Hindu,’ and that Christians are ‘outsiders’ who want to destroy India.

“Of course, the reality is that Christianity has been in India since the Apostle Thomas brought the Gospel to South India in the first century. And our Indian believers are as loyal to their Indian homeland as any Hindu or Muslim.

“The real problem for them, of course, is that millions of Dalits and others are responding to the message of Christianity. And just as it did in New Testament days, that becomes an economic threat to some, and instills fear of change in others. And since they cannot fight it through peaceful persuasion, they resort to violence.

Posted by raz | Report as abusive

This is a very interesting article. One of the reasons I have been thinking about is also the effect of migration. Is that something significant? Moderate and progressive Muslims in Pakistan might have been inclined to leave Pakistan, possibly as a reaction to the increasing use of religion as an instrument of state policy. The consequence of such change is necessarily the emergence of a population with a higher dependence on faith and religion represented by the various types of mullahs you have described, who rail about every injustice meted out to Muslims across the world and divert people to engage in activities detrimental to the development of the society itself.

Addressing some comments above:
– Islam no doubt is moderate, but like every other religion has it’s darker side. While Shias and Sunnis kill each other in the name of religion, that is the face of religion people will see. When one reads the works of Sufi poets, there is another face of religion one comes across. One has to stop accusing and defending faith, because there is no one version of religion – whether it is Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, or Buddhism.
– Anyone thumping their chests for having provided ‘blue helmets’, please note that contributions are mainly done for economic purposes. Otherwise, one does wonder why the developing nations have the highest number of contributors? And has anybody heard about the record of Indian and Pakistani peacekeepers in Congo?(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_ asia/7367965.stm). Should make you think twice before you use it to argue about how ‘moderate’ or ‘progressive’ we are.

One thing is for sure – a radical Islamic Pakistan is not in Indian interests, even worse for Afghanistan. As in real estate, a good neighbourhood ensures value of your own piece of land. Politicians in the sub-continent, unfortunately, rarely understand that.

Posted by Paritosh | Report as abusive

To read more about the Pakistan related issues go to

http://real-politique.blogspot.com/2009/ 01/pakistans-actual-economy-is-in-good.h tml

@umair,
good of you to point out that entire Muslim population is one brotherhood, it is comparable to the Hindu concept of “Vasudhaika Kutumbam” – universal family of Earth denizens.

But if Paki Muslims feel so pained whenever some Muslims in Bosnia/Gaza/Kashmir are hurt, what is your explanation for the Pak army’s genocide of more than 3 million of the then country men of yours, many of them Muslims in today’s Bangladesh.

On the point of Paki soldiers helping out in UN peace keeping, as someone pointed out already, there could be economic reasons. Some countries are using Pakistan army for their own interests by paying them money. I guess the term one uses for this is Mercenary?

Hima,

Pakis are hypocrites and double standard of this “Muslim brotherhood” Their help does not comes cheap, if you have something to offer only then this brotherhood works, Pakistan has tried to internationalized the Kashmir issue, even attacked on india for this. But on Gaza nothing is done by pakistan just some prayers and some usual statements.

On the contrary, Americans are killing muslims everywhere and pakistan is their friend in afghanistan. Americans has something to offer so pakistani help if available, what do they call it ? “Muslim brotherhood” or “Christian Brotherhood” Everybody knows USA is sponsoring the attacks on Gaza and pakistanis are their allies. USA has kicked taliban out of afghanistan with the help of Pakistan. Taliban were also their “Muslim brothers” at a time.

I dont know why some people commenting here dont know these facts, how can you even think to defend a country like pakistan which says something and does something completely different. May be they dont know the truth or they dont want to know.

Umair,

Be carefull when you say all muslims in the world are like one body..because as Punjabiyaar pointed out you pakistanis only seem to have brotherhood when there is a gain to be made..I have decent muslim friends who dont care what happens in the world other than their daily chores. You make us look on the all muslims in the world as one hypocrite community.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

@Anitha,
here is an answer to your Q.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakis tans_ISI_training_women_for_terrorism/rs sarticleshow/3976775.cms

Have nice reading, and decide what Women are doing.

Posted by Jack | Report as abusive

Sanjeev, Myra, Reutuers, et al…
I have been watching that Pakistanis in this blog always deviate the Subject whilst no one trying to offend them.

Dear Pakis’,
No one are indeed trying to offend you and your sentiments, however whatever we’re listening, hearing, seeing is what we believe.
Now you blame the Media or whatever, we have witnessed many features and characteristics of Pakistan everywhere to name a few… Afghan, China, India, Iran, N.Korea etc.
You have done all the mischievous act to counter Afghans domination at Western Border post Soviet era, and trying the same plan towards Eastern Borders, the only difference Afghans co-operated thinking of Muslim Brotherhood, however the later case is a secular.
Therefore Keep you nukes at your custody and keep kissing it on everything you see them. Don’t claim that you have all rights to fire them on other countries, and the Nuke Hysteria you guys are creating is not a worry to World.
Please refer to the UNSC declarations about Nuking other countries.

Posted by Jack | Report as abusive

Hima Bandu
I guess you know hindi, here is the motto of Pakistan Army:
“IMAN, TAQWA, JIHAD FISABILILLAH” Translated as
“FAITH, PIETY, JIHAD(STRUGGLE) IN THE PATH OF ALLAH(FREE OF COST).
I can tell you Pakistan Armed Forces are a completely volunteer force. The CIA and Pentagon know this and have a working relationship with Pakistan Army. Army Chief Gen. Kayani met with Adm. Mike Mullen aboard US warship in the Indian Ocean last year. Mercinery would be a very vulgar word to use for a force of the caliber and stature of Pakistan Army. The Army commands termendous respect in every corner of Pakistani society because of the role it plays as the guarantor of Pakistan’s honour and dignity.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I am testing if I am able to post my comment. I tried yesterday but could not see it, so trying again.

Posted by sanjeev | Report as abusive

Umair
“IN THE PATH OF ALLAH(FREE OF COST).
I can tell you Pakistan Armed Forces are a completely volunteer force. The CIA and Pentagon know this…”

—I bet even Allah knows this ‘Fareb’…(Farce)…& if you ‘really’ believe in the joke you’ve cracked…then may Allah have pity on your mental state…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Thanks for the link Jack !!

So Jihad did not spare women even…
I guess its time to tell paki men in ISI – be a man and dont put women in front atleast to fight.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

This is getting more interesting than I ever imagined.

To begin with, Indians are always welcomed in our land and we are known for our hospitality, unlike Pakistanis took advantage of it and now they have began paying it back lol.

Pakistan is no longer playing any major rule in fight against terrorism,
1- Because Pakistan itself is a terrorist nation supporting evil doers spread horror in Indian cities as well as Afghanistan.
2- The only reason US is quite to a limit because of supply routes to Afghanistan.
Pakistan has become more isolated than ever before. ISI must have planed Mumbai attacks in Pakistan’s favor but luckily it back fired and its going the opposite direction.

A piece of advice to you Pakis, stop talking about your Nukes lol.

If all Indians stand by their border line and all Afghans stand by our border line and urinate into Pakistan, this will flood the entire nation and that will take care of all your nukes as well as your terrorist organizations.
(I just loved this joke lol)

The time has come Pakis.
some body ask Mohd. Ali Jinnah to get up and look at all his dream that come true, (pakistan as the only terrorist nation in the world)

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Anup
Did I crack a joke about Pakistan Army? hmm well you need to get your skull scanned, i doubt if there is a brain inside. However, tell me about Indian Army, are wine allowed in officer’s Mess? Drunken idiots cant fight the lions of Paksiatn Army, One shout of Allah-Hu-Akbar and idiots will urinate in uniform with fear.
MEN AT THEIR BEST! PAKISTAN ARMY.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,
Would you like to respond to this column by Pakistani columnist KHALID HASAN?

http://www.khalidhasan.net/2008/12/28/pa kistani-neocons-and-un-sanctions/

Pakistani neocons and UN sanctions

HERE IS AN EXCERPT: “And this takes me back to Pervez Musharraf’s first visit to the US after his coup. At a meeting with a group of journalists among whom I was present, my dear and much lamented friend Tahir Mirza, then the Dawn correspondent, asked Musharraf why he was not acting against Lashkar-e Tayba and Jaish-e Muhammad. Musharraf went red in the face and shot back,

{{{{{{“They are not doing anything in Pakistan. They are doing jihad outside.”}}}}}

Umair,
After writing in blogs and reading on Islam, I am increasingly convinced that there is fundamental problem in Islam. It demands that a Muslim puts “religion first”-the concept of “Nationalism” is absent. So for some, Nationalism is a conflict of interest with Islam. Muslims lack the ability to dissociate religion and nationalism. That might be relevant in older times, not in the modern times since several countries are multi-ethnic and citizens belong to different religions. Nationalism is the foremost thing that binds these people. It is a common sense and no new scriptures need to be written to tell a person a difference between right and wrong. How difficult is it to think that the concept of Muslim brotherhood can be practiced as long as it does not become a conflict of interest with one’s Nationalism. For example, I as a Hindu should not expect that a Hindu in Pakistan or Nepal be loyal to India and not to their motherland. I would despise such fellows if they do not show loyalty to their homeland. I expect the same from each Muslim. I would see their loyalty to Pakistan, not to India, as treason.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair

— Dogs that bark don’t bite…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Rajeev
“Muslims lack the ability to dissociate religion and nationalism.”
—You make it sound like some neurological disorder…

Posted by ANUP | Report as abusive

@Umair,
“…One shout of Allah-Hu-Akbar and idiots will urinate in uniform with fear…” lol
We that shouting and urinating at 1948, 1965, 1971. However you guys know to shout only that, but if Indians’ know more such shout…
Btw, as rightly said by Afghan… we all will urinate and you all will flood shouting….

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Indians should not start gloating over the problems Pakistan is facing today. This whole “Talibanization” problem exists only in FATA/NWFP, and has already reached its peak in power. The majority of Pashtuns now view Taliban as a problem, and the majority now support the army’s effort to eradicate the Taliban. It is only a matter of time.

“Hussain”, Umair and Ali: It is in your best interest that you Pakistanis do not use these slippery slope arguments of yours.
Response to Umair’s yelling. “…One shout of Allah-Hu-Akbar and idiots will urinate in uniform with fear…” . Having started and lost all these wars to India, you are still shamefully using this argument. Well, even if I use your logic and glance at the history, I see no evidence of Pakistan’s bravery. Where were your brave Paki soldiers when India occupied the culture capital of Pakistan-Lahore and also Sialkot and Kashmir sectors in 1965 war. The Indian occupation of these sectors was so complete that even civilians could go up to near Lahore—my uncle did who was a civilian. Pakistan’s retaliation could hardly penetrate India beyond Khemkaran and their efforts to occupy Amritsar or any major Indian sector were totally disintegrated by the Indian Army, especially the Indian armored division called the “pride of the Indian Army”. Do you have a memory that how many US-made “Patton tanks” (which Pakistan was so proud of at that time) were lost in that area—more than 100 and that area came to be known as Paton Nagar- actually it should be called Graveyard. So grow up and stop yelling this “One shout of Allah-Hu-Akbar and idiots will urinate in uniform with fear…” pathetic argument. History rather proves that it is other way around. Each soldier has his/her own war cry.
Hussain: Just the fact that so many wars were fought between India and Pakistan but you chose the 1962 Chinese Attack on India as your argument tells me how proud you are of Pakistan.
To Ali’s “As of indians you are good for entertainment you have been always servents of the Muslims.”: Do not mouth the first word that comes to your mind. You know how many muslims-girls and boys-are in Bollywood. Unless you are including all, what you said about is plain CRAP. Say something worthwhile that is useful to your country or are you a “stateless actor”?—it has become relevant to ask these days.
By the way, some of you said that Indians are “cowards”. Is that what you all think of your Muslim brothers in India who fought for India against you—telling them “cowards”. What a sense of brotherhood? Wow!!!
Stop acting like a beaten up kid who does not shut up and keep on asking for more. Grow up guys.
Bangash Khan: I agree with your views about Taliban and wish it is eradicated. That will be good for everyone.
Anup: Well to your comment —“You make it sound like some neurological disorder.”, I did not mean that. I do not want to label it or classify it. I have no problem with any religion as long as it is harmless. It is one’s faith and let them practice.
Let us try to make the blog a useful one and not keep on looking backwards but find solutions for the future. Could you also please also comment on my previous post–I said “…I am increasingly convinced that there is fundamental problem with Islam. It demands that a Muslim puts “religion first”-the concept of “Nationalism” is absent. So for some (MUSLIMS), Nationalism is a conflict of interest with Islam. Muslims lack the ability to dissociate religion and nationalism….”.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

DONT GET CARRIED AWAY BY THE LATEST NEWS OF CRACK DOWN ON LASHKAR-E-TAIBA -PART 1

1. The latest spin from Pak army/ ISI is that Lashkar-e-Taiba is a pan-Islamist terrorist outfit. People in the know are not buying this nonsense. LET is the jihadi terrorist wing of Pakistan army. During Kargil war in 1999, LET terrorists maintained combat positions until Pakistan army can replace them with regular troops.

2. Pakistan army has ensured the failure of Pakistan as a state. India’s progress has been a tremendous source of envy for Pak army/ISI establishment. This is the reason behind attacks on Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, attacking India’s financial capital and so on.

3. Seeking out and killing American, British and other westerners in Mumbai, executing Jewish people in Mumbai are all part of this DRAMA to create an illusion this is Pan-Islamist Al-Qaeda operation and NOT an operation by Pakistan army/ ISI.

4. The thinking behind #3 would have been diabolically clever if only it had succeeded. Mumbai would be ground work for later “Al-Qeda attacks” on India to continue.

5. All the terrorists came from Punjab province of Pakistan, which reveals the operational realities of Pak army/ISI. They did not come from Sindhi, Mohajir or Balochi populations. They did not come from Palestine, Syria or Saudi Arabia.

6.Ajaml Amir Kasab turned out to be the weak link defeating the whole operation. He should not have been caught alive, he should not be talking. He is doing both.

7. Leaving material evidence, phone trail etc were done deliberately to mock and provoke India. Leaving Ajmal Kasab alive was not part of the plan. Desperate ideas were discussed in the last minutes of Mumbai operation to rescue him.

Pakistan is cowed by the hardliners and the moderates do not have a voice. Its is becoming another Afghanistan. Remember, Taliban was trained by Pakistani army and ISI. With the Allied forces in Afghanistan, they just dont have leeway in Afghanistan and are therefore making Pakistan a place for their wahhabism.

I think Pakistan can survive its civil war by moderating its air-waves, preaching tolerance towards other religions and accepting diversity as a way of life rather than something that needs to be crushed. Only the Pakistani moderates can save the nation from becoming another big tribal land!

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DONT GET CARRIED AWAY BY THE LATEST NEWS OF CRACK DOWN ON LASHKAR-E-TAIBA -PART 2

8. Lashkar-e-Taiba is 100 percent under the control of Pakistan army. Claims otherwise are silly rumors.

9. India WILL and SHOULD act what is in its best interests and will choose to act in a manner, method and place as it chooses to be in its best interests. Pakistan has been put on trial for its terrorist activities, and this time India has enormous international diplomatic backing.

10. India and international community were until recently willing to provide some cover for the Pakistan army which planned and executed the Mumbai massacre. The way out would have been to just expose Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists, and pretend as if the Pakistan army and ISI had nothing to do with the massacre. This is not easy anyways because of above. This window for this possibility has evaporated.

11. Besides #2, the idea behind Mumbai terrorism was to provoke India to mobilize troops , thus enabling Pakistan army to give an excuse (1) not to fight Taliban on the Afghan border and more importantly (2) to boost bargaining power with USA . India and USA have worked together and have denied this opportunity to Gen Kayani.

12. The trillion dollar question is whether Gen. Kayani shared the plans for Mumbai attack with any one in the civilian govt before execution. Zardari seems to be not involved.

Rajeev“
“…I am increasingly convinced that there is fundamental problem with Islam. It demands that a Muslim puts “religion first”-the concept of “Nationalism” is absent. So for some (MUSLIMS), Nationalism is a conflict of interest with Islam. Muslims lack the ability to dissociate religion and nationalism….”

—The fundamental problem is not with Islam but with the misinterpretation & twisting of logic for self-serving, power hungry individuals & groups with ulterior motives…
In it’s true sense- National interest must be complimentary to Islam’s interest, it’s a good thing if you can develop the ability to be dispassionate towards ‘nationalism’ for your spiritual growth, not by ‘dissociating’ for material gains…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

All of Universe belongs to the Almighty so therefore his creation has the right to go anywhere and live and learn and enjoy. Islam does NOT have any problems with the religion itself, if it did it wouldnt be fastest growing relgion in the world nor would it be most prectised religion of the world.

The problem is Muslims have so many countries but no unity due to the greed of the locals leaders. They know if there is Khilafat they will lose all the previlgious due to that they do not want it to succeed. These borders were only drawn by the coloniel powers to implment the ulimate strategy of divide n rule.

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

Even to this day the West is scared of Muslims getting together, just looking at the map from Malasiya to Tukey and imagine the whole muslim countries as being one.

They know when that happens khalas they will have deal with muslims differently. As now the only thing is cheaper then water is the BLOOD of MUSLIMS.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Just to add a little piece of information about the general Pakistanis they are tolerant and very hospitable people. Simply have a look at the results of all elections NEVER has pakistanis elected mullah to govern them except when the dictator Mushraf come into power he needed the help of mullahs and got them few seats.

Beside that i will say again NEVER has pakistanis wanted mullah ro run their country. That gives any right minded person a idea of people of pakistan are not terrorist few black sheeps helped by foreign hands that commit these crimes. We are on the hunt and our beloved forces will find them whereever they may be hiding inshala.

But that does NOT mean we have taken our eyes of our biggest coward ENEMY India which uses every opportunity to inflict damage on Pakistan. As the perfect example is these bloggs you will never hear a indian suggesting they have problems in Kashmir which the whole world knows excpet the Indians. Its time too have a little deeper look inside you before excepting miricles from your neighours.

Terrorism is a common enemy of both countries n the world now but by working jointly we can wipe this mennace. By poining fingers you are only playing into terrorist hands and ONLY they are winning.

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

Ali

“As now the only thing is cheaper then water is the BLOOD of MUSLIMS.”

—& therefore the Pakistani’s spill it -for their bloodthirsty Army & to please their American Masters…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

+++But that does NOT mean we have taken our eyes of our biggest coward ENEMY India+++

Every sane, rational person in the world agrees the “country” of “Pakistan” that sent in terrorists to a train station to shoot and kill unarmed civilians is the most cowardly country humanity has ever produced.

Hussain,
…Terrorism is a common enemy of both countries n the world now but by working jointly we can wipe this mennace. By poining fingers you are only playing into terrorist hands and ONLY they are winning….

– Now when Pakistan’s own land is getting stolen from their brainchid(Terrorists) you nation wants to act jointly?
– The Pakistan Army, PAF are all so powerful that they can wipe out India from the map can’t do it by its own?
– We pointed finger from the day one showing about this menace, but your mullah, Army, ISI were enjoying and partying on terrorists activities held in India.
– We don’t believe in these Joint activities anymore, your guys are well known for double standards, therefore either we see if US extends its drones to surgical strikes or allow us to do that.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Anup: As long as practicing religion is harmless to the other individuals, it is OK-that’s all I wanted to say. Well these days the religious fundamentalism of all kinds is on the rise to an extent that it has started hurting other people.

Richard Dawkins, a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science author at New College, Oxford, has discussed this rationally in detail as a scientist through several books and TV documentry. DAWKINS IS AN OUTSPOKEN ATHEIST AND A PROMINENT CRITIC OF RELIGION.

In his book “The God Delusion”, he specifically addresses Abraham religions (Jews, Islam, Christians) which all have a commonality of monotheism. “Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that faith qualifies as a delusion ? as a fixed false belief. He derives his conclusion by rationally addressing the points and beliefs made by Abraham religions”. He specifically excludes HINDUISM and Buddism from his definition of GOD, which he considers sophisticated.

“The Root of All Evil?” is a television documentary by Richard Dawkins in which he argues that humanity would be better off without religion or belief in God.
“The God Delusion” explores the unproven beliefs that are treated as factual by many religions and the extremes to which some followers have taken them. Dawkins opens the programme by describing the “WOULD-BE MURDERERS . . . WHO WANT TO KILL YOU AND ME, AND THEMSELVES, BECAUSE THEY’RE MOTIVATED BY WHAT THEY THINK IS THE HIGHEST IDEAL.” Dawkins argues that “the process of non-thinking called faith” is not a way of understanding the world, but instead stands in fundamental opposition to….. and is divisive and dangerous”.
In his 1991 essay “Viruses of the Mind”, he suggested that memetic theory (evolutionary models) might explain the phenomenon of religious belief and some of the common characteristics of religions, such as the belief that punishment awaits non-believers. ACCORDING TO DAWKINS, FAITH ? BELIEF THAT IS NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE ? IS ONE OF THE WORLD’S GREAT EVILS. He claims it to be analogous to the smallpox virus, though more difficult to eradicate.
DAWKINS IS KNOWN FOR HIS CONTEMPT FOR RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM (ISLAMIST TERRORISM TO CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM).
His opposition to religion is twofold—1. a source of conflict and 2. a justification for belief without evidence.
When asked how the world might have changed after 9/11, Dawkins responded:“Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where’s the harm? September 11th changed that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people 1. unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness, 2. because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. 3. because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let’s now stop being so damned respectful.”

I personally would like to think that originally no religion Would be started and religious scriptures written to spread violence. Obviously the problem lies in the convenient misinterpretation, but the bitter truth is that many are doing so to a degree. There are all shades of problems-not just screwed up interpretation. Religious people can be moderates, or radical and radicalism in its extreme form gives rise to terrorism. The boundaries are fuzzy and crossing them is one way road since opinion formed are hard to change. That’s why the onus lies on moderates to not let that happen by providing proper religious education and prevent the creation of new terrorists. Not every Muslim in the World may respinf with guns to Bind-laden’s recent so-called “holy War” over Israel attack on Gaza problem but some Would secretly support his actions through denial. Enemy of the pure or LeT also does not kill inncocents-as it claims-but that’s what it does in practice. Ordinary Muslims would respond to LeT kiilings through denial, conspiracy theories. Turning to Hollyood, saw a movie today “The war within”. This is about a person in France and USA, originally from Pakistan, Who is transformed into a terrorist (suicide bomber) in the name of JIHAD and hoW he motivates a 10 yr old kid. At the same time a good Muslim, his friend, is not at all interested in this violent version of Jihad.

Umair said “Islam does NOT have any problems with the religion itself, if it did it wouldnt be fastest growing relgion in the world nor would it be most prectised religion of the wo”rld.”
I have heard this “fastest growing religion argument” as a sign of being something positive. I think Christans feels the same Way. I cannot get this argument—does more cockroaoches in the World mean they are superior to human beings-I say no. So quit this arguments. We all know that most of the conversions are forced or exploited, not that they really want to embrace the new religion.

Ali said: “Even to this day the West is scared of Muslims getting together, just looking at the map from Malasiya to Tukey and imagine the whole muslim countries as being one.”

Well that scares me as well if you did not leave India alone in this map from Malasiya to Tukey, if that’s the map in your mind.

Hussain said: “But that does NOT mean we have taken our eyes of our biggest coward ENEMY India which uses every opportunity to inflict damage on Pakistan. As the perfect example is these bloggs you will never hear a indian suggesting they have problems in Kashmir which the whole world knows excpet the Indians. Its time too have a little deeper look inside you before excepting miricles from your neighours.”.
Quit shouting this pathetic “our biggest coward ENEMY India” slogan. For last 60 yrs Pakistan has been doing that–spending this negative energy. Be constructive and set your priorities right and start saying ”our biggest coward enemies Taliban, LeT, JuD”. BTW, why India is your biggest enemy? You have a serous problem, if US attacks you cry on behalf of all Muslims that they US is misusing its power, If Indian does not attack, you call them cowards. Whining has become your habit. I am sure you understand “Rassie jal gayi bal nahi gaya” (The rope has burnt, but not its coils).

About Kashmir: You better not start this. Pakistan will get worse rating than George Bush if Kashmiris in POK are asked about their overall living conditions. I was on a pro-pak blog and a Kashmiri from POK was venting his anger over the pathetic conditions of Kashmiris in POK. This guy was comparing the conditions of certain Kashmiris he knows in Indian Kashmir. He was aware that Indian govt is doing so much for kashmiris in India. There are Kashmiris in power unlike in POK where most high positions are retained by Pakistani Punjabis and others. Soon after the partition, Pakistan attacked India, later Pak Army/ISI created terrorists on both East and west front with the help of US. Did you take permission from Kashmiris to start the Jihad–NO. All Kashmiris wanted is a political solution for which you never let the conducive conditions happen, got the terrorists to do geneocide of Kashmiri Pandits or they migrated out of Kashmir.
Palestine: If Pakistan is concerned about Muslims, is this not the time to pressurize US to stop the Israel-
Palestine conflict. Alternatively, flash your ISLAMIC BOMB at Israel to press it to stop the brutal killing of innocents in Gaza. Empty talk is insufficient. For your information, India was the first Non-Arab country to recognize Palestine and the last major country to establish diplomatic relation with Israel, and even today India supports palestine cause morally and financially.

Peace to all.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

To get more information about developments in Pakistan and in the region, please visit

http://www.real-politique.blogspot.com

Rajeev
To criticize another’s religion is ‘UnHindu’ , so I refrain from voicing my opinion in public, Inhuman acts committed in the name of religion’s, I prefer terming it as malicious self-serving interests of individuals / groups / nations / priests / Jihadi’s etc… personally, I prefer spirituality over religion.
Many a Richard Dawkin’s (western scientists) discuss rationality & then you come across them on Sunday morning mass, kneeling devotedly in their local church…mostly the essence of mysticism is beyond their mental grasp, so they indulge on the dark side of it, i.e. what degenerates & throws up as religions…’The God Delusion’ seems to be amongst those who suffer from the ‘God word allergy’… mimesis? “BELIEF THAT IS NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE ? IS ONE OF THE WORLD’S GREAT EVILS.” –isn’t he voicing out his belief on fanciful & self-perceived notions, what evidence is he producing?( the “WOULD-BE MURDERERS . . . WHO WANT TO KILL YOU AND ME, …)( September 11th changed that. )- he’s is a clear case of Paranoia. The very usage of the word ‘Evil’ means that he also is a victim of the Good vs. Evil dogmas…Hypocrites.
‘Hollyood, movie “The war within”.- Typical Victorian moral, good vs bad…
There are no ‘Holy Wars’ or “crusades” – there’s only greed (either of here or beyond), insecurity & fear , – no good or evil- it’s either – Knowledge or ignorance.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Chuck–

You said Kashmir is part of India and Pakistanis say it is part of Pakistan. The question I have is if it was integral part of either country, why is there UN resolution asking for a peblicite? Not only that but also promised by Mr Nehru. The fact is Kashmir is for kashmiris and only kashmiris have to right to decide their fate. As the Indians have there homeland and pakistani theirs so do the bengalis so why do we see the double standard when it comes to Kashmiris?

I am a kashmiri living in Canada and infact I have visited my homeland year ago. I did not see any suffering infact most kashmiris on that side of the border are living overseas. All I saw was lot of developments but yes there were poor kashmiris and the earthquake only made the situation worse. But yes the politicians are corrupt as they are eleswhere in the subcontinent. But it is nothing like what we see on the other side of LOC which we all know and I dont want to go in details except surely dont need that high number army personals to control the valley.

Why should the Kashmiris suffer like this small child being pulled betwen two angry parents in the form of Ind/Pak. If there is war or cross border firing the only people who suffer are kashmiris on both side of the LOC.

I also feel we will NOT feel complete till out hindu brothers also come back who were driven out of the valley. But same time we dont need indian soldier every yard in srinagar or eleswhere in Kashmir.

The best solution is for both countries to take their army out of kashmir except for few that observers at the LOC. But Kashmiris would be allowed to travel either side of the LOC to trade, meet families. There should be kashmiris police force for the whole of kashmir trained by both countries and sincerly help the kashmiris to get on their feet.

But then if the two neighours cant sit together on incident like Mumbai. We do NOT have very high expectations from both countries surely we need International help to solve this crisis. This problem needs to be adressed and solved for the sake of everyone living in South Asia as this issue could triger a nuclear war.

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

Sikander Hayat :

Why are you trying to promote your own blog through reuters ?

If you think it is worth let people do it.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive

Hussain:

You pointed out a very important issue, So I thought I should comment on this. At the time of independence Kashmir was left alone on its own, as the Maharaja at that time did not want to merge with pakistan or India, we were fine at that point.

In 1948 Pakistan attacked Kashmir and captured almost all of it, obviously Kashmir had no army of any sort. Maharaja asked Indians for help, which could be provided only if Kashmir was a part of India. India was not america at that time which could interfere anywhere in the world. Maharaja had to sign Kashmir to be merged with India. Pakistan did not acknowledged that Kashmir, which was in possession of Pak at that time, can be merged with India. Pakistan did not accepted that treaty and India had to fight pakis out of Kashmir.

Now UN ,which is always slow on these issues, interfered and imposed a ceasefire. If UN had not imposed a ceasefire, all of the Kashmir will be free. Even today Indian Kashmiris have special rights due to section 370, being a kashmiri you must be aware of that.

Since then pak has attacked several times on kashmir to occupy it, if there were not indian army “on every inch” it would have been succeed too. Now they are sending terrorist on Kashmiri soil.

So you know, Kashmir has signed to merge her with india, If Maharaja decided to ask China for help it would be part of china by now. What could we do, after this we have to say that Kashmir is part of India and we have to defend it.

Its pakistan which is unfair on Kashmir.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Hussain
“also feel we will NOT feel complete till out hindu brothers also come back who were driven out of the valley..”

—Why? are you guys not satisfied enough for the rape, murder & atrocities committed on them yet? You think they are absolute idiots to trust you barbarians?how sick you’ll can get, BS! Kashmir was-Is- Will always be in & for India & Indians-Period.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup: I am not advertising or criticizing any religion here. I have genuine question, which everyone has and that should be encouraged. Please do not make a wrong sketch of my person. I did not say “To criticize another’s religion is ‘UnHindu” nor did I mean it. BTW I cannot even understand what it means. It is clear that each religion is different. You have to be careful in interpreting because putting in negatives, such as “Unhindu” can mean something “bad”, rather than saying it is “different. Well it is a useless exercise to focus too much on the jugglery of the words.

In my previous post, I have quoted Richard Dawkins in my attempt to point out that there are theists, atheists and agnostics. Did you read the book “God Delusion” or heard abot this guy? I personally do not fully believe what he says. My major point was to bring his rationale “Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where’s the harm? September 11th changed that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous”. That’s what we have been saying that terrorists are misinterpreting religion and spreading violence.” We are saying the same thing in our own words-“misinterpretation of religion” leading to killing of the innocents. Now if he has his own reasons to believe that “God almost does not exist”. I do not personally agree that he can prove that based on his rational approach, but then each one of us have our own ways of understanding a phenomenon or just believing without questioning.

Richard Dawkins agrees with you on “Many a Richard Dawkin’s (western scientists) discuss rationality & then you come across them on Sunday morning mass, kneeling devotedly in their local church…”. He also wonders about this problem. Anup you are assuming that all the scientists, like Dawkins, are atheists. That’s wrong to begin with. Needless to say Dawkins is not one of those people. Anyways, “hypocrites” who say they are THEISTS OT ATHEISTS can never be defended.

About his using the word “evil”, I looked at the etymology of the word. He has not fallen into the trap of the meaning of “evil”. Here is the quote from the Dictionary of Word Origins by John Ayto, “the original meaning of the English word “evil” has changed considerably over the last few hundred years. Not surprising. It seems theologians have had considerable influence upon shaping words to cause us to see according to their doctrines rather than what is plainly written.”

Anup, there is no denying that Jihad is considered a “holy war”, but depends on the interpretation of “war” again.

Have you seen the movie “The war within”? It is a pretty good movie-nothing at all like “Typical Victorian moral, good vs bad…”. Rather it is a good attempt at understanding the mind of a suicide bomber.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Anup,
Oops! I got your 1st paragraph wrong. So ignore this from my previous post “I did not say “To criticize another’s religion is ‘UnHindu” nor did I mean it. BTW I cannot even understand what it means. It is clear that each religion is different. You have to be careful in interpreting because putting in negatives, such as “Unhindu” can mean something “bad”, rather than saying it is “different. Well it is a useless exercise to focus too much on the jugglery of the words.”

Again, I am not critizing, it is Dawkins. It is relevant since many people are atheists or agnostics–Nehru was agnostic.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

prob. posting reply

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Re: Kashmir.
The biggest mistake was Pakistan’s attack on Kashmir after partition. The clueless maharaja was tilting towards an Independent Kashmir or signing up with Pakistan, all that was required was patience on the part of Pakistan. Several rajput “kings” seriously considered joining Pakistan. There are a lot of “ifs”. The whole thing was poorly thought out .

Good article and i rather say well informed article but one mistake is ignorance. Islam was, is and will always be the in liveblood of every muslim in Pakistan whether he goes to mosque or not. Sanjee mentioned the blast in Lahore theater can he be more elaborate on BAL THAKRE activities in india, specially his threats to PAKISTANI celebreties in india.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

For God’s sake Sanjeev…havent you ever been to Pakistan? If anything its WAY MORE modern & Westernized now than it has ever been throughout its history

Im so sick of people having malicious aims when it comes to maligning Pakistan

Posted by Raza Shah | Report as abusive